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Tape Number : Q 622
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Part 1: Telephone conversation between Jim Jones and John Maher of Delancey Street Foundation
Maher: Any Democratic person registered in the Fifth Assembly district can vote.
Jones: All right.
Maher: And my feeling was that we do Dennis Banks a favor, un, without him knowing it, by sending our guys down and (unintelligible word) you each person has ten votes.
Jones: All right.
Maher: Out of that ten votes that all the Democrats can vote, six people will be selected from each district to be the the delegates to the convention.
Maher: And I think if that I can get all my people and some other good people to just say to each of these people, "Youre a delegate for [California Governor and presidential candidate Jerry] Brown. Do you promise us that you will demand Mr. Brown or, if you cant demand, you will at least say, loudly that uh, your overall friendship depends on his extradition situation with Mr. Banks."
Jones: And thats where youre vital to us. Youre Youre very much more aware of the the grassroots political process, so we will get all registered in the Fifth Assembly District, uh, to do the same.
Maher: Right. And I think I think that if we could get one of your guys and make him a delegates See, I cant make my guys delegates, because theyre ex-cons, and what happens is, people think when they see ex-cons do politics so I was going to support one of the gay people
Jones: Thats good.
Maher: And a couple of the straight people uh, like Ann Eliaz [phonetic], who are old timers, to keep the party intact, uh
Maher: Then I thought that I would send 25 men over to the [presidential candidate Jimmy] Carter caucus in the same district. See, the way they work it is, that each group of
Jones: Theyre going on at the same time, concurrently?
Maher: Exactly. And what happens is, all of the candidates have a caucus in each district, and then they select their slate of delegates. Then in the primary, what we really do, is vote for their slate of delegates.
Jones: I see.
Maher: Uh I think Carter wont have a crowd, so that a limited number of people here, we could get some delegates on that. And I know that Carter cant do anything for Dennis, but what Carter can do if he feels he might get him some support out this way, where hes not known is to really put the pressure on his people, that, "Listen, man, at least half of your delegates want you to make a strong statement on Dennis Banks."
Jones: All right.
Jones: You will get your gentlemen to call us back, so we can get Were not savvy enough. Youve been in this Ive been so busy, you know, when you maintain we have our own health program, we own legal services to our people, were practically running a kind of an independent socialist community
Maher: Right. Right.
Jones: God, I I just cant see the tr the forest for the trees. Uh, your your savvy your savvy is is immeasurably helpful to me. I cant tell you how much. Now I wouldve ov I wouldve been guilty of an oversight here, and we that would have been a shame, to not put our strength here, by just happening to talk to you would make the difference.
Maher: Yeah, my my feeling, sir, is that uh for myself and our people because Im in the same spot you are, I mean, were just battered, uh
Jones: Yeah, I bet.
Maher: And my feeling is that our responsibility to the people is, while we wait for the good man or woman to come that we can support, who we feel will make real changes
Maher: is to be manipulative on their behalf
Maher: and to tie the enemy up, so to speak, in some minor debts here and minor debts there, and uh and pin em down. Uh, and I think weve at least I know I have I think if Ive wasted a lot of time in the past mainly in supporting in, in making choices between different kinds of unacceptable people
Jones: Yeah, I agree.
Maher: and then fighting my tail off for them, rather than sitting back and saying, well, how can we need three black building inspectors? How do we get them?
Maher: And And And And go about that process, and I think uh (pause) I think, years ago, the old Chinese Communist Party was correct when they talked about the uh, the, the concept that if you take the small jobs
Maher: that slowly power is transferred to the people.
Jones: Thats an Thats an interesting concept. Id forgotten it. I will uh, um (stumbles over words) I almost forgot what Im going to talk to you about. Now, you said you were grim about Dennis, uh, the extradition. Weve put about ten thousand letters up to (unintelligible word). You think the governors [Robert Straub] going to go along with the extradition in in Oregon, too?
Maher: Well, I dont know. My I I really dont dont know the Oregon situation very well. But my feeling with Mr. Brown is, Mr. Brown is an ambitious man.
Maher: Hes not
Maher: Hes not the worst of the lot, but hes an ambitious man, and I I was not particularly thrilled, even though Cesar [United Farm Workers organizer Cesar Chavez] feel I you know, I had lunch with him yesterday, and he said hes happy with Brown now. There was quite a while where he wasnt happy with Brown, where Brown hesitated, and my feeling is that (pause) Im afraid Mr. Brown will feel so much support because of his farm worker bill and some other stuff, that the good guys will start coming over
Maher: that unless we really get some wedges in there, hell be able to say, well, Ive given them this and this, I can probably get by with hanging Dennis.
Jones: Uh, I I I think thats probably a reasonable deduction.
Maher: And my guess is that uh, weve got to articulate that loudly. Now it may be
Jones: How many people should we have at both these caucuses?
Maher: I really dont know, sir. I would think uh the last caucus they had but I dont know if thats indicative there were about 200 people who showed up, and about 200 of mine. Im not going to be able to match that in any kind of strength this time, Im only going to be Because many of my people are registered in Marin [County].
Jones: Hmm. Ive got a problem too, in in registration number. This is off the record, but Ive been moving my people out
Jones: of the rural communities, so theyre How long do they have to be registered to participate in the caucus?
Maher: Uh, I believe they had to vote in the last election.
Jones: Oh, oh, well, were were going to be were going to have some problem. Um, then I dont know how many fall in the Fifth Assembly District, uh. Ill have to look at I I
Maher: Well, now therell be therell be caucuses in both, Fifth and Sixth
Jones: All right.
Maher: so that uh, we can split I think the real thing is to that I can see My guess is that Brown or Carter, either way and if Brown cant do anything for Dennis, because he has a legal technicality to hide behind, he could at least make a public moral statement.
Jones: I would I would (unintelligible word)
Maher: It would say, I would do this, but I cant by law.
Jones: Now, I understand youve put a hundred thousand letters in there and telegrams, weve put fifty thousand
Maher: Well, I havent even I dont think Ive even gotten to to to fifty yet, weve maybe got twenty
Jones: Well, I heard what Dennis said. I was going by what Dennis said from the um, rally. And we we we we have exceeded the fifty thousand mark, and it it seems that, God, youd hear something, some feedback. And not one of our people have gotten a damn word from this governor.
Maher: Well, its too hot an issue, sir. And hes a very hes a very astute man. Uh, and
Jones: I suppose so.
Maher: I think he just (unintelligible word) (Pause) I think hes walking that line where he cant give our side too much, or the other side too much, but he wants to give us both enough to make us think hes going his way and
Jones: Well, you know, this Dennis is a is a good chap. Uh, weve been having a little flak I dont know whether you saw what they did to Cecil Williams [pastor at Glide United Methodist Church, San Francisco]
Jones: Did you Did you read this uh, we are playbay Playboy, they, oh, good to say. They they went into him with a well, they went for the jugular, uh, this atrocious article.
Maher: Playboy Magazine?
Jones: Oh, one of them. I I I didnt I dont like to listen to tripe about good people. But it it was um, um I probably should you should know Rappaport Rappaport, be sure to be careful if that man comes around. I dont know other than it was Roger Rappaport. He uh Oh, I think the headline of it was uh Cecil said the church should get fucked. And I I agree wholeheartedly. The church needs to be pregnant with new ideas. But uh, it went in this the the scurrillousness of it was that he helped uh, disrobe women in the um, the meeting, and they were smoking pot all over the place, and he uh
Maher: (Incredulous) What?
Jones: And and uh, yeah, oh, I havent got to the worst of it yet, in all the SLA [Symbionese Liberation Army] guer Its a guerrilla enclave, and the SLA people came out of it. It It was a It was uh, atrocious. Now this uh We we think we uh, we may be uh, in for an article, but and Dennis called the [San Francisco] Chronicle and uh, got very disturbed uh Someone told him we were having some difficulty, and he got very He Hes a good man, uh
Jones: The Chronicles given him very good support. But he called in there, saying, an attack on Jim Jones is [an] attack on me. I wouldnt have had him do it for the world. Uh We seem to be faring very well. And by the way, if um, weve been advised by a number of the DA called uh, if a a little letter could be dropped in, even by your office, saying that Peoples Temple has so much um, racist reaction in the um, the north which they have well documented uh, they they would appreciate uh, not having uh and their friends would appreciate not just not having any article at this particular time. I dont mind if they if they allegedly its going to be positive, but the woman has written on the uh, the others in the past, and um, what she calls positive, [San Francisco District Attorney Joseph] Freitas says is positive. He got into Mellankopfs office and said its its positive, and weve heard that from uh, feedback from [San Francisco Chronicle columnist Herb] Caen, but what reporters call positive and what turns out to be positive is another thing.
Maher: So how would you want me to What What exactly would you want me to write, sir?
Jones: Oh, just something that, Peoples Temple um, has suffered um, the their eight we have 1800 constituents in uh, this Redwood Valley section up in Northern California, and our people not only our black, but our Jewish members, too theyre this is uh, something that disturbs me as much as a, a wave of anti-Semitism and anti-black feeling, and I can see throughout my church, uh, jurisdictions and of course, the uh, (unintelligible phrase) I think its a phenomenon thats a little different because of the (voice fades out for two seconds) but whatever the economic crunch, it theres a hell of a lot of, as you say, factionalism and ethnic prejudice. To the point of violence, though, up there. If we get good news or bad, uh, John, what it doesnt make any difference what kind of news we get. And weve had nothing but good for years, since they got rid of a character by the name of [former San Francisco Examiner columnist Lester] Kinsolving, who used to attack everyone around
Jones: Um Anything comes out, well get shotgun through our our facilities
Maher: To well, I should address such a letter to Mr. Mellankopf?
Jones: Uh I would think that that Mr. Pate might perhaps
Jones: Hes hes
Maher: How do you spell his name?
Jones: Oh, Lord, I dont I Let me look here in the uh, paper. He He The reason I say Pate, hes written sympathetic hes written kindly letters to us, unsolicited, in reference to some of the things weve done in the community. So thats just why I say he seems to be more friendly. And Mellan Mellankopf has been um Other people have talked to Mellankopf, uh, uh and I think hes probably been saturated and he seems to be friendly. Uh, let me see if I can get Pate. (Sound of riffling pages) Wouldnt you know that editorial damn section, I cant find it, uh (Pause) Just a second, uh In the meantime (clears throat) That Thats what touched me with with uh, Dennis, uh, when hes got so much at stake that he would call in that way. Gordon Pates. P-A-T-E-S. Assoc Managing Editor. (Pause) P-A-T-E-S.
Maher: Okay, Ill get a copy off today.
Jones: Thank you. If you could send us a copy to give us some ideas of how we uh, little things we might say. Youre youre a genius, in my opinion. I dont say I I mean that. Ive never seen a man with the the mind that you have. And thats why were very much interested in not only the mind, but the sensitivity. If anything can save this country, its the people that think like you do, and and then put the actions behind it
Jones: Anyway, something to the effect uh We cant be asking for prior restraint, but just say, the Peoples Temple uh, has done all these number of good works, we have their we have a strong drug rehabilitation program I dont know whether you have any of our literature legal services, free legal services, they have their own health examination facilities under the auspices of Doctor uh, doctors uh, such as [San Francisco Sun-Reporter publisher and physician Carlton] Goodlett. We have, you know, I dont know, you know much of our program
Jones: We have our physical therapist here, we give uh about a hundred people getting treatment that would cost them thirty dollars an hour, the poor cant afford it, so we got poor white, uh black, every every ethnic background getting diathermy, ultrasou ultrasound uh, treatments, which is so important to uh, people in advanced years, and theres a lot of arthritis in this damn climate.
Jones: Uh, we do preventative me uh, exams, sickle cell testings, uh, we have free meals twice a day here, uh, we have a commissary that gives emergency food and clothing what else do we have? we have our own childrens home, we have a home for retarded in Northern California, and uh in that Redwood Valley area, and we have three geriatric facilities that are uh, unique in that theyre self-managed. The seniors only They tell tell us what to do, they ma make their own menus, they decide the décor of their their facilities, all they ask for is manual labor because some of them are well, one of our managers, shes so beautiful, is a hundred and one, theres nothing so so good for seniors uh, uh, as is getting them involved and keeping them involved, rather than a paternalistic approach of doing things for them.
Maher: Thats right.
Jones: So thats just a I I hope thats a capsulization that would give you some idea of the programs. And say that Peoples Temple, as a matter of of record, it can be established, has um, suffered um, uh, harassment to their uh, minority members to the point of physical violence on several occasions when any kind of article comes out, and some of us uh, dont uh, say that weve mentioned it, uh, the approach has been at least, thats what the DA approached, he he wrote uh, the District Attorney of that country wrote, whos conservative, and its just saying uh, that uh, some of us feel that any we heard that an articles coming and and uh, we feel that the best news for Peoples Temple is no news. (Pause) And thats the damn truth, if we get uh I I dont care if its positive or negative, Id like to get my black people although Im not telling them that Im moving the black people out, but by July, our black people want out of there.
Jones: And well have them out. But it takes us, uh, a while, and if we get even a, a breather by something of that sort, uh, just like youve heard it through the Ill tell you whove written (unintelligible word) point, um, Mayors office made a call, the um, Mendelsohn made a call, um, um [Fred] Firth would but um (sniffs) Firth being that hes got them tied up in his suit, he didnt know whether I wanted him to, and I decided, well, better not. By the way, who are you for in the term of Firth or Mendelsohn?
Maher: Im remaining neutral on that issue.
Jones: All right. Thats good. I I Ive had ambivalence, and I wouldnt quote you. Believe you, anytime I ask you, I wont quote you.
Maher: Okay, my my feeling on it Ill just give my back background, sir. (Pause) But if [California State Senator] Milton Marks loses and thats not to say he should win, hes half the time a do nothing guy but if Milton Marks loses, all Republican power in the city
Maher: (unintelligible word under Jones interruption) wing, that power will fall to [San Francisco Supervisor John] Barbagelata. The only other Republican of note is [San Francisco Supervisor John] Molinari, who is fairly good, but obviously didnt have it even to get in the race this time.
Jones: I see.
Maher: My feeling or at least my my overall strategy, though I have because I know Mr. Mendelsohn and uh, I have supported him in the past, and because certainly Fred Firth seems like a funny guy who at least could be used for the people, if we massage his ego.
Jones: Yeah. Well said.
Maher: Uh, my feeling is, the Republican camp must be kept split because if Barba if it all falls on Barbagelata, that kind of leadership, (unintelligible word) nearly unseated George [San Francisco Mayor George Moscone]. And uh
Jones: Youre damn savvy. I I shoulda thought of that.
Maher: I think it should be split.
Jones: Well, well go into well go into the final thing for Marks then uh Off the record, off the record
Maher: Yeah. Absolutely.
Jones: All right. I I see your point, and Weve always supported Marks, uh He hasnt been all that bad a guy, and I dont suppose itd be a toss-up between all of them anyway. So I I th I see it. Thats where we need your input. I said to you that you its too bad I dont know what the your (stumbles over words) Does now the criminal background uh, impair a man from politics? Its a damn shame youre not in the uh, uh You oughta be a a Hell, I think you oughta be president, but of course, thats dreamy-eyed nonsense. Um, what what uh, what impairment does it have? Ive never even bothered to think in terms of peoples records, uh, does this um, impair one from running for any office?
Maher: Uh not really, nowadays. It can be gotten around in most cases. It did until just two years ago.
Jones: Now they have a Isnt it a crime in the state of California if they refer to your records, even? I think its a misdemeanor if they even bring up your record.
Maher: Well, its theres different uh, different rules for different categories of crime.
Jones: Umm. I see.
Maher: For instance, the federal people have one set of laws, and various states and counties have alternating laws. Here in San Francisco, we got the right to vote in a referendum about two years ago. And its getting much much looser. But uh
Jones: Well, Id hope so. Id hope so. Well, that uh, that, in a nutshell and if any any if I know its an awful burden, knowing you, but we being we have so much power of numbers, uh, we need your wisdom, if you you write a memorandum, unsigned, Ill know who its coming from, on a typewriter, with some suggestions. So
Maher: Fine, sir.
Jones: Um Directed to me personally, I It would be ever so helpful, so that we dont make mistakes. Now we would have made a mistake again about Marks. I I didnt think of this of the total impact and youre quite right, Barbagelata is something out of the antediluvian period, uh I we we dont want to see uh, him have that type of control over the Republican Party. But I dont think far enough And I dont have time to think, because of all the burdens here. Uh Its just Its just enormous uh As I told you just I told you a small proportion of the programs. I dont know also whether you know we have an a we have an agriculture mission in South America of 27,000 acres.
Maher: Mike Prokes had told me. That was a fascinating thing.
Jones: Its beautiful. And by the way, if you have anybody thats just bumming out bombing out completely, um, its always an avenue. Some of my drug addicts that couldnt make it, and uh the had been uh, had criminal backgrounds, and just simply couldnt make it in the urban situation, always seem to get back in the same patterns, they seem to do ideally well in a in a jungle community twelve miles from the closest human contact, but a lot of good support that its not a harsh type of communal situation there, and doesnt have to be, because theres so little trouble they can get into.
Jones: Um But And were producing. We just turned uh, this week, uh, past week, sixty thousand ya uh, pounds of yams which help the uh, the malnutrition not in that area, weve done a great deal about that, and weve given employment to about 200 people, and so with the radio station there and the radio station here, and I have our own radio broadcast, uh, I feel like Im the jack-of-all-trades and the master of none.
Maher: Well, (laughs) you and me are in the same company, we are, cause we we blow it every time we do these things.
Jones: God, I And we now have uh, ventured on this thing of our Peoples Forum, I dont know whether it dropped by your place, or you saw it. We have We circulate six hundred thousand its a four page kind of a newsette. Uh, I did the first draft on it, because my journalists were pretty busy on something else for our denomination, and it we got some compliments back. Well, we got about 300 letters back on it. And I I really think that that may be one of our best buffers. It could be a buffer for you too, so anything you want us to support, I think they told you, we put (stumbles over words) Delancey Streets Restaurant Restaurant out Uh, we
Jones: And uh, so 600,000 people know of your restaurant. (Unintelligible word) Our people are so beautiful. In four days, they had that on 600,000 doorsteps.
Maher: Oh, theyre good.
Maher: (unintelligible word under interruption) crew there thats very good.
Jones: Do you agree that would a newspaper like uh, be a buffer, or would it be too threatening? Weve got a hell of a circulation.
Maher: Well, I think If If I had a a newspaper like that, my policy would be to give it a different name than anything immediately related to Peoples Temple, so that
Jones: Well, unfortunately, its Peoples Forum. The Peoples Temple theology is never mentioned, uh, hasnt been, depending upon if unless we have to give it some interpretation, ah, in in lieu of an article, uh, its been support of Dennis Banks, its been support of Hi-tell [phonetic] Clinic, it was mentioning your program, um, it it it it doesnt in any way never asks for anything for Peoples Temple. It says send your moneys directly to those people uh It cant support legislation, because of the ticklish situation that the church is in
Jones: Uh, uh, but unfortunately, we did name it Peoples Forum, um
Maher: Well, I think thats a thats a good name. The only reason I say that is this, that there are many things that no doubt you want to say, and uh, well want to say, and always be restrained or constrained by the fear of reprisal or animosity to your parishioners constituents, and uh, I know there I had planned at some point, if I ever got a printing press, to go right into the newspaper business and just deliver to doorsteps, and uh
Jones: I think itd be very helpful, but I can
Maher: My feeling was that when I did it, was to put it in a different name so that whatever I said didnt reflect on my people. You You know what I mean?
Jones: I get you. Well, youd be saying it probably s you you you you speak with such indictment on all of this for our apathy and indifference. Ours has been a sort of kind of pabulum, other than that we support Dennis Banks, uh, which would be controversial, uh, wh its health clinics, programs like yourself that we feel that need to be the voluntary programs that and our appeal is, if you dont support such voluntary agencies, then youre going to see more and more big uh, uh, bureau bureaucratic uh, experiments, right or left, thatve shown their failures evidently across the world, uh, its that that type of approach. We dont uh, promote our own socialistic utopian and we are an and were socialist, but we in no way uh, see any socialist system that is uh other than some of the Scandinavian countries, I think we could improve our lot if we were more like some of the Scandinavian countries. I dont know what your feeling is on that.
Maher: Id buy it.
Jones: But uh uh, we dont promote the political. We cant promote the political, and I dont think wed serve anything if we did. I agree with you wholeheartedly, labels, uh, theyre passe, uh Anytime you see it and well ch arrange that you do see it please, uh, dont hesitate, John, uh, for my friends, the most important thing they can give me is constructive criticism.
Jones: Uh We want to do this. We want to represent the interest of the people well, and uh, I cant tell you how measurably uh, it is
(Two men talk over each other)
Maher: quite frankly, Jim, uh. When I first heard Peoples Temple, I said, oh, goddamn, another fucking preacher, right? (Laughs)
Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Maher: And uh
Jones: I know the feeling.
Maher: It was a real shot in the arm, not only just to see the Temple, but to to see some people out on the street actually doing some things for some real causes in a disciplined and adult fashion, instead of just a bedlam. I mean, its uh
Jones: Well, Im really heart and mind with you. Im uh, you know, an agnostic. We have a some emphasis on the terms of paranormal, because uh, it brings results, uh, there is something to therapeutic healing, all medical science has proven, but we dont link that with any kind of causative factor of a loving God. Off the record, I dont believe in any loving God. Our people, I would say, are ninety percent atheist. Uh, we we think Jesus Christ was a swinger. He taught some pretty damn good things at feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, uh, maybe a little paternalistic, but its still uh all the emphasis of the judgment of character the only time he ever mentioned judgment at all was in Matthew 25, and it had to do totally with what you were doing for other people, so we we emphasize the teachings of Christ, but um, were a we are as um were the most unusual church Ive ever run into, in in this sense, uh, and we state in the church I wouldve loved to have been in the foundation. For some years, Ive been talking to our attorneys to try to get in a foundation, but we have such an influence in the denomination Our bishop was here Sunday, thats why we wanted you to meet him and the president of our of our denomination, I dont know whether youre familiar with the the the denomination, its called the Disciples of Christ. It includes the FBI Director [Clarence Kelley], [Former President] Lyndon Baines Johnson, I think, Senator Monsdale [Sen. Walter Mondale] to give you some background of it
Maher: Oh, my God, its
Jones: And see, were linked, not only as Peoples Temple have I have my own bishopry of the churches Ive founded, of about 70,000 members altogether, but (stumbles over words), Im in official capacity, assistant DA [Tim Stoen] whos a member is also in official capacity, in the regional denomination of two million. Its uh, that stateswide. So we Giving up the church meant giving up that kind of influence, uh, our our whole denomination comes out with the most radical kinds of postures, and its always Peoples Temples caucus that does that
Jones: So Otherwise, I would have left the church. I
Maher: I I think youre in the right place, because I think its exactly right, uh, because, you know, a lot of these folks have, through their education and their background has made them bigots and fools, that they can hear it from a collar, and theyre basically decent
Jones: Unfortunately, I think youre right.
Maher: and and thats I think thats essential, because an awful lot of these little Christian people around, too. You know, they vote wrong all the time, and all this stuff, but fundamentally, theyve they theyve got some good ideas about principles, and if we could just reach them, and I think youre doing it right, I think thats the only way to reach them, is from from from positions where they where they can hear it, instead of demanding that they listen to us on the street and
Jones: Well, thank you for the feedback, cause, I must say, I felt somewhat hypocritical for the last years as I became uh, an atheist, uh, I have become uh, you you feel uh, tainted, uh, by being in the church situation. But of course, everyone knows where Im at. My bishop knows that Im an atheist. He He knows that I I I recognize only love, when I say Ill say, "God is Love" well, you heard my preaching. You know where Im at.
Jones: Uh, I dont keep it any secret, so when it comes to fundamentalists, Im not much influenced, but its amazing how many liberal churchmen and even, that you would think, orthodox churchmen now, for instance. The head of the ecumenical council, I dont know whether you know him, Dr. Lynn Hodges, its over all the Jewish, Catholic and Protestant churches in this entire bay region. Have you ever met him?
Maher: No, I havent, sir.
Jones: This man is American Baptist, an official in the American Baptist Church, he comes here, he knows how I feel, and he when he heard of this article, he got in there, he went in to the Chronicle
Maher: Very (unintelligible word under interruption)
Jones: He said, now if you if you bother Jones, Ill have all Ill have so many preachers in here, that itll itll bug you to death.
Maher: Very good.
Jones: Now, that that there there are a lot of closet atheists in the church. I He must obviously be, because hes heard me say the most outrageous things, and he still supports me, because he said, you do He He told He told the Chronicle and gave me a copy of what he sent to them, also he said uh, Jim Jim Jones and his church does more by accidents than all the other churches do by design.
Maher: And thats about correct.
Jones: Oh, well, I think its its too too much of a compliment. But anyway, um, I Im glad to hear you say we should stay in the church. I I Cause I have the damnest ambivalence about it. But But another fact, if we go into a foundation, we have a ticklish problem of what assets we have, uh, we we were a church when we got them, and we have c certain funds that we have hundred young people under scholarship, and I guess my ticklish problem about going into a foundation
Maher: Well, my my thought, Jim My thought, Jim, is that when an operation as large as you have and uh, as vulnerable as it is to many hostile forces
Maher: that you should have, you know I I always advise our people Ive never been able to do it, because Ive never had the time in my battle, but Im gonna do it, which is to I think you should have four or five different organizations with different tax structures and different bases
Jones: Were working on that
Maher: uh, so that, if they close out one, or destroy one or ruin one, the others will make your people and the situation survive intact. And also to provide different forms of patronage for the decent poor that want to help you, but cant
Jones: Thats a good idea.
Maher: in one one regard or another.
Jones: We only have one, uh, for those who tend to live in a kind of cooperative lifestyle. We call it an apostolic society. But we are going to have to get one uh, for political action, which we dont have, and were formulating that, the attorneys here in our free legal services. Um, I Any Any ideas of that too, John, wed be Its be immensely helpful.
Maher: Well, the way The way I handle that, sir, is I just set up Democratic and Republican clubs, like a private citizen, and I tell my people to join whatever party you want to join
Jones: and then send uh, give certain donations to that.
Jones: I get you.
Maher: And And so that Delancey Street itself has never spent a penny or never done any political work, but because Im involved, they think its Delancey Street, because what happens, if we just Its just like school teachers. When they leave their job, they go to their political party and they work. And I just set them up as normal clubs within the structure of the existing two major parties
Maher: Uh, my guess is and I just pass it on to you, because I think you could do it even better, because you have a wider base of people these people have gotten soft. They like to spend big money, but they dont like to do the little work. They dont like to type the letters, they dont like to pick up the phones, they dont want to do all that stuff.
Maher: And I really think that a couple of hundred dedicated people could take over both parties from the from the bottom, because, if all the secretaries and the typists and the door-knockers, uh, go one way, they will become dependent upon those people, and most of them are cowardly. As soon as they become dependent on us, theyll switch their allegiance from the people who bought them to to the people theyre dependent on.
Jones: Well, we need to get into, then, the precinct I suppose youre speaking of precinct level
Maher: Uh, I have maps that I can pass on to you, sir, which are
Jones: If If If you would. Now we worked that in the north. Again, we felt hypocritical. The Assistant DA is Republican Well, hes no more Republican than a grasshopper. But and uh, so is the school teacher whos head of the English Department, and the Republican Party is much under our influence. Of all the odd, uh, paradoxes, uh
Maher: I think thats good, sir.
Jones: Uh, so we we we havent done it here. Uh, obviously the majority of my parish is (unintelligible as he speaks under breath) decidedly theyre registered Democrat. Ninety I would say its in the ninety percentage Uh, weve made a mistake, probably. So our I I would really will Im going to act on a number of things you said today, and you I have the deepest respect for you. To me, you are a man of character, uh, even in all this fame that youve gotten, uh, you could uh, kind of relax and side along, but the indicting things you say about the system, uh, you really are, uh, my mentor, and a lot of people feel (unintelligible under interruption)
Maher: Well, thats a little strong, because (unintelligible under laugh)
Jones: No, no, no, no, not at all. Uh, I Im a good at organizational man. Im a very good administrator. When it comes to finances, Ive got a tight ship here. I dont owe a dime on anything. We We Im as frugal (stumbles over words) I must have some Scotch in me, (unintelligible word) to be joking about it, the ethnic char uh, the ethnic jokes. Uh, Im really tight on the dollar. And weve uh Ive helped our people prosper and get ahead by a lot of sane budgetary uh, in uh, instructions, but when it comes to all the political savvy, and some of the foresight that you have, youre youre way ahead, and uh, thats why we need your input. And we will follow your direction. You can depend upon it, because we believe in you. And uh, thank you so much for taking the time to call. Is there Isnt there anything now that you can send to us, a little article of program or your own, that we could include in the next uh, issue of the Peoples Forum, wed be so happy
Maher: Well, I havent (tape edit) We have some nuts whore trying to get us, but Ill get them first.
Jones: What nuts?
End of side 1
Jones: He was falsely what?
Maher: Falsely happy, if you know what I mean
Maher: like, I could see he was
(men talk over each other)
Maher: Yes. And (tape edit) Hes one day ahead of schedule on the referendum on (unintelligible word) (silence for several seconds) push the concept of that initiative, uh
Jones: All right. All right.
Maher: I think that would really be key, and itd take a load off me too, because I have an awful lot of my guys, when theyre done with their days work, what we do is we go out and we get (unintelligible under interruption)
Jones: Now there theres where we run into some problems. Any legislation, directly or indirectly I dont know whether youve read the final (unintelligible word under interruption)
Maher: Oh, I see
Jones: the Christian, anticommunist, uh, uh, element, they the tax people came with up with a finding that is absolutely mind-blowing. If you affect legislation directly or indirectly, your church status uh, your tax-exempt status is automatically uh, nil, thats all. Its
Jones: So, weve read the law back and forward, weve got uh, for we have tax consultants here, we cant seem to find a way around. I I think that its time that the church ought to get away from that goddamn bribery anyway, but it will itd be such a heavy on us, with all the programs were carrying
Jones: I I think the church ought to say, to hell with your stick your damn tax exemptions and your ministerial privileges and your ministerial deferments. I never took the ministerial deferment, and Ive always felt pretty clean about that. I took my chances, and ran into a a a a (unintelligible word) I just took my chances on on that. I never got drafted, because I had a number Ive adopted seven children. I didnt do it to get out of the war
Jones: But I I I think that the church tax-exemption, the ministerial deferment, all those damn things, are mere efforts on the governments part to bribe the church into silence, so that it wont speak out against the government or ag policies.
Maher: I believe that.
Jones: And, uh, Id like to see every damn church lose its tax-exemption. And Id be glad to be the first, if I knew others were going to follow suit. But as long as the goddamn bunch of institutions that are doing nothing get tax-exemption, I dont see why Peoples Temple should risk losing ours, unless we have to.
Maher: Well, I dont think you should. I I I really think that youre absolutely correct.
Jones: And IRS has left us alone up till now, Im sure were over vo very much overdue, cause Cecils under attack, I guess hes been two years under surveillance. Hows IRS with you? Have you had any hassle?
Maher: Theyve never even said a word to me, but I know that uh
Jones: (Short laugh)
Maher: I know that were under chronic surveillance and un
Jones: Im sure we are most be uh, must be, and of course, they they can ser be under we can be under chronic surveillance, cause I know, uh, like you, uh, uh, we dont we have nothing to hide. One thing I Im damn careful about is, to see that everythings done according to Hoyle, and we pay exactly what were supposed to as individuals and so the tax people would be wasting their time bothering with us, but uh, in this matter of legislation, we tried to play it cool, and if you know of any advice other than what we know, uh, how to get a we will have to form a new corporation, and it has to be clear that no monies its very technical. The finding on the on the uh, Christian Anti-Communist Crusade that took away their tax-exemption of course, I deplore Billy James Hargis, but I think hes got a right to say what he what he thinks uh, they they tied that man up, uh, six ways uh, to Sunday, uh, to uh, to the point that theres just no way he could uh, do anything of a political nature anymore.
Maher: Yeah. Well, I think the model for all of this kind of stuff is COPE [Committee on Political Education]. (Pause)
Maher: Uh, COPE is the political arm of the AFL-CIO, which is also tax-exempt.
Jones: Oh yeah?
Maher: And, (unintelligible name under interruption)
Jones: We better better take a look at COPE, I suspect.
Maher: Uh, what they did, they call it, its the Committee on Political Education. And what it is, is in essence George Meanys voice.
Jones: I see.
Maher: Uh, they have locals, uh, they endorse candidates, and then that is considered the labor the labor endorsement in any local area.
Jones: I see.
Maher: Uh Theyve set it up in such a way as that the COPE is completely corporately separate from the AF of L-CIO, and yet it is completely controlled.
Jones: Well, I I How How would we uh, get some inside information on their structure?
Maher: Ill have Sylvester Harring uh, Sylvester is my kind of political man, so to speak
Jones: All right.
Maher: cause Im much more of a philosopher than a good manager.
Jones: All right. You indeed are.
Maher: Uh, Ill have Sylvester get to you just (tape silence for two seconds)
Jones: It would be deeply appreciated, and anything we can do, in any way, John, please call and I I (tape silence for two seconds) and we will, we will look into this referendum and see if, as a church paper, theres something We might be able to present the facts in such a way without an open endorsement, but the law the law is so tight, if it directly or I re remember one (word unintelligible under interruption)
Maher: Ah, I wouldnt take any I wouldnt take any jeopardy, then, because Ill tell you something. Cesars going to need you for a long time. Not just for one shot.
Jones: We sent a good bit of money uh, to his program, and we will continue to do that, uh, and we uh, then again, I suppose, were taking some chances, but we weve got to take chances. Hell, Im not going to set back and not take chances. What more now can we do for Dennis Banks other than this caucus situation? Do you see anything else in Oregon that uh, any any ideas you have
Maher: Im not familiar at all, sir, with the Oregon situation. Itd be pure speculation, uh, (unintelligible word under interruption)
Jones: The governor there has failed to on some occasions and controversy, to extradite. Even a Black Panther, I believe, though I dont approve of their approach always. Uh, a Black Panther from Alabama, the governor refused to extradite him, and so Id taken maybe, oh, probably too much pollyannishness, Id Id taken a little encouragement from that, but again, Ive heard nothing from our letters to the Oregon uh, governor, and we have only a couple of hundred members up there, uh, maybe 300, so thats not significant en enough to give him the feeling of support that hell need. Im sorry to hear that your (unintelligible word) I I guess I havent wanted to face it, because Dennis Banks, unless Im badly wrong, hes one of the nicer people Ive ever helped.
Maher: Thats my feeling.
Jones: (Stumbles over words) I thought, what by thew way, what kind of a man is this whos in it broiled in hell up to his neck, that will take the time to call in to the Chronicle, who did a very good feature on him, I thought, and be jump on that reporter, and tell him, get the hell off of Jim Jones back, uh
Jones: That Thats uh It wasnt wise, but what character. What character. I was I was so just overawed uh, by that overwhelmed by his, his attitude, and and and to come back when we gave the money, he just kept coming back and thanking us, I Very few people, when I help them Hell, thats the last you see of them.
Maher: Thats exactly right.
Jones: They they dont give a They dont give a damn if they say uh, thank you. In fact, they usually try to ignore you. But (stumbles over words) and then, when Angela [Davis, fired professor from UC-Berkeley] was here, he uh, stood up there well, you were there, I guess, and uh, maybe youd left by that time and gave five hundred bucks. I said, No, Dennis, Ill do it. I didnt I didnt feel up to putting 500 into Angelas um, program either, because of the uh being somewhat over overex extended. What do you think of Angela? Off the record, John.
Maher: Hard for me to say, sir, Ive never really encountered her personally, except at like meetings and stuff, Ive met her at Glide [United Methodist Church] and here and your place
Jones: She seems to be sensitive, but what I Shes doing that old communist party bag uh, uh, I thats the only thing I have maybe maybe shes serving a purpose in in being in the Communist Party. We need every uh, segment of representation, I sure, but I Id appreciate your uh, judgment because she uh, contacting us more and more for uh Shes not asking for outright support, I I dont really want to portray her as that, but in monetary terms, but (stumbles over words) the North Carolina situations much on her mind, so shes wanting to meet with our people more and more. (unintelligible word under interruption)
Maher: Right. Well, I dont really know.
Jones: You just dont know, so thats fine.
Maher: No, I dont. Uh, I My I only have my impression which has been that uh, whenever Ive met her, shes acted like a lady. And
Jones: That she has. That she has.
Maher: Uh, I know thats old-fashioned of me, but uh, when when when people act (Pause) concerned for others, I somehow
Jones: That I see consistently, in my contact with it, but like you, Ive not had all that much contact with her. This is the first time shed been in our church, though we helped the only negative article we ever got And interesting to know how much there is of communications on the the I dont what the level, what agency We sent a few thousand dollars for her defense fund when she was really under attack. In those days, the United Presbyterian Church sent some money to her, and they had to withdraw the money, because the members were irate. So we stepped in, picked up what she was counting on from them, and we got our bishop to go along with her, hes a real swinger. Uh, youd like him. I do want sometime, for when hes here, for you to meet him, because he needs uh he needs to be exposed to you. Hes so lonely, (unintelligible word) hes over 200 churches, and pro well, about a hundred thousand people, which is a signifi significant influence. Anyway, we sent the check through him to Carlton Goodlett. No one else knew about it, other than a telephone call. I mean, forty-eight hours later, this Kinsolving
Maher: Thats right.
Jones: Was was up in our uh, Northern California headquarters, at our community center, where we have our indoor swimming pool, and so forth, and uh, he mentioned that damn check.
Jones: Uh, nobody on earth knew about it, but my bishop said he didnt tell a soul, Carlton said he didnt tell a soul, so
Maher: (Unintelligible sentence)
Jones: It was done very, very Q.T., it was on a low (unintelligible word), because boy, when you come out for Angela in those days, it was hell, and so he tarred and feathered us, he went after us with a fanatical zeal, and I dont know whether you remember the background. We marched around the Examiner and uh, he got out and he he libeled us, uh, so uh We had a lot of Fifth Estate [Fourth Estate is the press] sympathy, it seemed
Maher: Very good
Jones: amazingly so, and uh, he then when he libeled us, the paper came down, and they said, "Uh, how long we gonna march?" We said, "Forever, if you dont stop this damn series, forever."
Jones: And uh, they did and printed a retraction, and it burned and then fired him. We didnt ask. I I We didnt ask for him his dismissal, but they got so much heat, and my good friend the Ecumenical Council, a number of clergymen and civic leaders came and uh, went up there to the uh, the publisher and and it was [San Francisco Examiner publisher Charles] Gould in those days, and he they fired him summarily, but uh, uh, that shows you how much of a tap they have, boy, that was ironic. Iro (stumbles over words) Last point, and Ill let you go, um, two months thereafter, he had two reporters a two a telephone operators we didnt have direct dial in those days uh, how we found out, a little woman, kind of a primitive Baptist, but she didnt like the smell of it. She got wind she was a a colleague in the uh, telephone uh, section where this was being done. Two operators were monitoring my phone all night, lawyers and members, the DA, uh, whos a member of our church, monitoring our phone around the clock uh the two coordinators, there were more operators involved, cause thats a a little valley of bigots, uh
Jones: much of it imported from Oklahoma and Texas, uh, most of the residents up there are not native Californians. And uh, this woman said, I cant stand it anymore. So we got the telephone investigation people, and they said, oh, well do something about it, but this woman has to come forward, and knowing the redneck mentality, we couldnt expose her, so so we had Kinsolving, (unintelligible word) God, I was tempted, but II had to feel for that woman. She had the bravery to step out, and I asked her, I said, "Do you can you face the music?" She said, "I Theyll hate me, and Ill probably live in such hell that Ill have to give up my job." And I said, "Well, I wont do that to you," so we never could prosecute him, and uh, at least we got, uh, the the telephone company got on to it, and we didnt have any more surveillance. But thats uh, thats the kind of power that man wielded, Kinsolving wielded, and money he spent money to come to our conventions, he tried to get us out of our denomination, he tried to prejudice people at every region. We calculated the head of our entire church, whos very friendly to our program, said that he must have spent twenty thousand dollars traveling around, hoping to get my denomination to remove me, because I was so uh, atheistic and so involved in such unholy uh, c uh, efforts as Angela Davis. So now, uh, what uh, Mr. whos the anchorman for CBS now thats been taking [Walter] Cronkites place. Dan Rathers [Rather]. Dan Rathers said a few days ago on the tomorrow show that uh, he was indeed a a CIA agent. Now I know Rathers enough that he wouldnt say anything he couldnt substantiate.
Maher: Right. Hed get sued to death if he did.
Jones: So there must be a lot of these jerks running loose who have a an interconnections.
Maher: Well, Im convinced Im convinced, uh, Reverend Jones, that uh
Jones: Call me Jim. Dont ever call me that "Reverend," I can
Maher: Okay. Im I convinced that half of the people who show up at all these rallies that me and you go to speak at, and all of this?
Maher: I dont mean half, but a substantial number Im convinced were infiltrated everywhere with provocateurs, uh
Jones: I believe we are.
Maher: The kinds of statements that are made in the name of doing good for human beings, uh, (pause) are uh, are so rash and so unthought out and so silly sometimes, that I can only believe that they are pumped into our environment by people who want us to destroy ourselves and other people.
Jones: I I thank you uh, for that comment. We We had always considered the SLA, for instance, a provocateur. Uh, I dont believe anybody that of the left is that insane, uh, to do to do this
Maher: Thats right.
Jones: and then with the background that we know from a police inspector, whos a member of my Los Angeles congregation, that Cinque [alias for Donald DeFreeze, member of Symbionese Liberation Army] was palsy-walsy with everybody in the glass house, so I I couldnt agree more, I thought what you said, these rev revolutionaries, rev whatd you call them, revo revolting, instead of revolutionaries.
Maher: (Laughs) Right.
Jones: Uh, keep on the good work, John, and th thanks for the time, and anything you can have sent to us, to give us bearing and direction, uh, we we want to do the right thing, and if we dont, itll only be because we dont were not properly informed, and I think you could be of immense help. I hate to put the burden on you, but if you
Maher: Were at your service.
Jones: Thank you so much, John.
Jones: Yeah. (unintelligible word) Did I handle that all right?
Woman: Yeah, you did fine. He gave a lot of good good information.
Jones: We got a review (unintelligible word) Hes a smart fucker. Hes a smart fucker.
Woman: He sure is.
Jones: I dont know how sincere he is, but I at times I I think hes very sincere, uh, one part of him, but in when he gets in the media, he he I dont think he says it like he ought to say it. But hell (sighs), were all trying to survive. Oh, Jesus. He lives too plush. That bothers me. He has elegant antiques and shit in his and he drives that fucking Cadillac. Um, but hell, maybe Im too critical. (sighs) Maybe he needed a Maybe he needs to drive something that looks like success. I think not, though. I think the people are They may They may look upon that, uh, out of the indoctrination and conditioning, they may look upon it with envy, but I I I think were again (sniffs) Wouldnt you say?
Woman: Oh, yeah. Sure.
Jones: Will you glean this with a fine-toothed comb?
Jones: Uh, particularly COPE. We got to study that shit, and uh, uh (Pause) Well, a number of things he said. Hell, youre youre
Woman: Well, I can go through it, and transcribe it.
Jones: I really need you, bel boy, I tell you, I would write one more letter, but I thought Delancey Street might be
Woman: The least intimidating. Theres no way theyll think thats a joke.
Jones: No. Uh, he probably will do it, I Id hope he will do it, anyway. Uh uh (Pause) uh, I think that uh (Pause) I think I better get back to Freitas now. Thats what I thought about. I knew Id called you for some reason. Anything else happen? (tape edit?) Well, how would you know? You got (unintelligible)
Jones: (unintelligible word) of exactly what he has, Ive go to have.
Jones: And uh, he can have the whole bit, like in uh I dont know about Andersonville. No, dont give him Andersonville, cause hell say something about the Lord, loving the Lord, and a bunch of bullshit.
Jones: Give him Give him Oakland. Give him the Oakland Tribune and uh, oh, I dont know, bullshit like that.
Woman: Okay. Oakland, but no Andersonville.
Jones: Uh, that covers it, some of the things I did to bring peace. And underline that That would be a (unintelligible word) shit to talk about, it would seem to me. And In other words
Woman: Underline what?
Jones: Underline the part of where I uh, brought through kindness, conciliation, (unintelligible word under interruption)
Woman: Oh. Okay. I see. The South part.
Jones: Yeah, the South part. Uh And be sure we give him the kind of material with numbers that impress but that uh, some some sort of statistical (clears throat) uh, consistency. (Laughs) Um Programs I dont know what the hell Hell, you can you guys can fix Prokes doesnt always make good judgments. He thinks he does, but he doesnt always make good judgments on what should be given, so could you just ask to see it? He will never confer. Ive told him to go to two or three, but its a tendency, he does not do that. (Pause) I dont know, I tell everyone to do it, but uh, ve very few people will confer with others. They will I wouldnt trust my judgment far as I could throw it. And Im the leader, and Ive made a lot of good decisions, I think, through the years. Uh, we need I wish youd beat that into their heads, and make a routine message, that I demand, that before anything decisions made, that you consult with two other uh, government people.
Jones: (Pause) And then I want to know too. Uh, they better Cause otherwise, well have a hell of a lot of leniency to see (unintelligible phrase) something Ive assigned you to do, I want it uh, uh, (clears throat) checked out with others. (Tape silence for few seconds) [Eugene] Chaikin uh, you do it. Youre careful, uh, tell him (unintelligible word) Chaikin, Prokes, uh, who in the hell does any strategy work? (Pause) Well, you know the strategy people. Ill leave that with you. Okay, we better call Freitas back.
Woman: Well, what Im going to do on these calls (unintelligible word fragment)
Jones: (unintelligible word fragment)
Woman: Shes on the other phone. (Laughs)
Jones: Uh, what uh
Woman: Whats the whats the problem?
Jones: Uh, what is the problem with her now? I would tell her that we are having you are having him brought up here, arent you?
Woman: Right. Shes on the phone the other phone (unintelligible word under Jones) the doctor.
Jones: Whats the Whats the number? Whats the goddamn number, and Ill dial her. Get your ass out of that.
Woman: Hang on a second, okay?
Woman: (Puts phone down. Pause. Picks phone up) Maria [Katsaris] just hung up.
Jones: (unintelligible word) the world settle with her.
Woman: The whole world, when her family gets involved, I dont know?
Jones: Maybe, its its true. They never gonna change it, I suppose. All right um Ill have to get (unintelligible name) out Usually that person A person of that type doesnt sophisticated enough to have a will. I doubt very much if she has money. If his dad is still living, I dont know whether his dad is living, uh, he wont be getting any money anyway. Goes directly to the dad. I dont know whether his dad is living. I dont know a thing of that. (Pause) But we take great risk in sending him back there. We We got Walter [Cartmell] out of Kentucky, tell her, but all of Kentuckys not out of Walter. (Pause) We got him out of the family situation, but that blood ties still damn strong in him. And I think we take a chance sending him back there.
Jones: With anybody. (Pause)
Woman: (Whispered aside, unintelligible)
Jones: So I think I we better talk to him, but if I worse comes to worse, I see hes going to do it anyway, Ill do it. But hell have to go with somebody. Undoubtedly.
Woman: Okay, well
Jones: Set him up on some basis, that they might to poison him or something, to get the money or some goddamn thing. Tell her Ill well think of something to scare his ass. (Pause) Okay?
Jones: Thank you, and I I will relax until I hear from Freitas, then, for a while
(two talk over each other)
Jones: possible. I told him to call me back. I dont know whether the fucker will. I suppose he will.
Woman: He will. Hes a call caller.
Jones: All right.
Woman: Do you want to be bothered if he calls?
Jones: We got to get on that Republican thing, and we gotta get on those uh uh uh, he mentioned, uh, some people having a caucus to help Dennis Banks. I think we ought to be in those caucuses, the Carter caucus and the Brown caucus.
Jones: I think we ought to try to get um, into the uh both the Re the Republican and the Democratic Party. I agree with him, wholeheartedly.
Woman: I think thats (unintelligible word under Jones)
Jones: I think we need to organize that, uh
Jones: who in the hell can organize it. And Carolyn Loomans pretty damn good in follow-through. Ask her to do a rundown on our registration and see who in hells in the Fifth and Sixth Assembly districts, that can vote, that has a resident that wont get us in some fucking trouble.
Woman: Yeah, we have a problem. All of our fucking communal people
Woman: Well If they want to run for the city offices around I dont know if wed pulled out of that or not, or whether they have any of these so-called jobs. None of us can vote, cause we none of us are registered, right, and if theres any type of We were told not to vote this time.
Jones: Well, I agree wholeheartedly.
(microphone dropped? No recording for several seconds; could be second recording overlapping)
Jones: law, I think theres so many people can only live in a dwel dwelling, but uh, I dont know if that holds for church groups or not. Weve got to find that out, so we can get indeed registered properly. (Pause) Okay?
Woman: Umm-hmm. We can really do that for the next presidential election or
Woman: Its all done for the next presidential election. Everybody that that had voting records down here, thats now communal, will lose their uh (laughs) lose their resi not residency, but you know, they didnt vote in the last election, so theyre not eligible for shit.
Jones: They have They have They have to be reregistered, thats all.
Woman: That would be (unintelligible names; "Susan and Anna"?), hopefully other people.
Jones: Well, anyway Anyway, lets keep that in our mind. Put that on your agenda up there, loud and clear on a sign, so we dont forget that, some high points and looking at COPE, the agricul the their arm of the A AFL-CIO uh, looking at how we can help uh, Cesar Chavez, uh Theres a number of things of points he made and how we helped Dennis Banks by getting the caucus delegates, uh, well give them their support, providing you do speak out for Dennis Banks. That kind of thing.
Jones: Another five hundred dollars cash, I want to go treasurers check to Dennis Banks. Say, "Jim said I wish I could do more, Dennis. I really wish I could do more. I want to" Hell, and if we go down, I want to do something for that guy.
Jones: Say, "Jim said hed want to do it. He just had to do it. Hard-pressed, but he just had to do this."
Jones: All right?
Jones: Thank you
Woman: When is this start going through?
Woman: I (unintelligible word) everything that you gave, except for that first thing this morning on the healings and the metaphysical thing, and um
Jones: To to to Miss uh, to Miss uh, Su to
Woman: To Julia
Jones: To Miss Priss, yes uh
Jones: Well have to get that damn thing out. I promised her, and we ought to have something like Carolyns letters and
Woman: Carolyn who?
Jones: Oh, Carolyn Layton was supposed to have written the goddamn letter. I dont know whether she did or didnt.
Woman: Oh, yeah, I got the rough draft here. We can type it (voice fades)
Jones: Um (Stumbles over words) these people wanted to mention some of their their healings to sort of acquaint you with it. Its not not important to them. Its not important to them Its not all that important to them, but just to show you the effectiveness of therapeutic healing, and this can give you an idea of Julie of how a scientific approach, a sane approach to the whole matter.
Woman: Okay. You want excerpts from all their letters?
Jones: I would rather think that that would be it. Uh better, better do it that way, yeah, rather than send a whole bunch of packet of letters
Woman: (To someone at other end) Whats wrong? (Pause) We got Penny [probably Penny Kerns, aka Ellen Louise DuPont] on the phone again, so shes keeping time.
Jones: Oh, son-of-a-bitch. (tape edit?) Well, dont do a hand deliver. We hand-delivered once to a, uh Kinsolving, we dont want to repeat that. But by God, we theyll have to be mailed special delivery to her.
Woman: Okay, Ill give it (unintelligible word)
Jones: Uh, right away, uh, uh, as soon as possible or something, and then be careful what the hell we put, and we have documentation and no way
Woman: You have documentation?
Jones: Huh? That No, we have excerpts Uh, all these things that Carolyn Looman brought up, that we be sure to give articles, where they came from, where the information came from. (Pause) You know, on all this paranormal shit.
Woman: Yeah, and like (voice too soft). Hopefully, you guys are working on it for two days.
Jones: Well, you hope so. Well, I dont know. Okay, whats her number? (Pause)
Woman: Can I go get it?
Woman: You really want to talk to her? Shes crazy.
Jones: How do you know?
Woman: I mean, she she I mean, shell live through it, Im sure.
Jones: All right. Give me the goddamn number.
Woman: (Phone placed on table, momentary pause, phone picked up) 863-6191. By the way, thats not a pay phone, either.
Jones: 863 what?
Woman: 6191. So if she tells you it is, its not.
Jones: Who is it? Who is that?
Woman: Thats Patty, but
Jones: Well, what What number is that? Which number is that?
Woman: I dont know, but pay phone numbers is you know, in the second set of four digits there, always begin in 9. This is a six, so
Jones: Umm-hmm. Thank you.
Jones: In terms of not metaphysical, the paranormal, the therapeutic healing, and that kind of stuff.
Woman: And they they sent the goddamn fucking file up to the fucking valley to the newspaper, which is dumb.
Woman: So well get it down on the Greyhound tonight, if we have to.
Jones: Well, okay. But God (unintelligible phrase) be in there, because Saturday and said it she dont get it by maybe we could send it to her home.
Jones: Umm-hmm. All right. Get me the uh
Woman: Who? Sammy?
Jones: Oh, yeah, get me Sammy.
Jones: Thank you, hon.
Jones: Terry, whats that other
Man: (answers phone) Hello?
Jones: Uh, Jim Jones, um
Man: Hi. How you doing?
Jones: bothering you. (Laughs) How are you?
Jones: Now I I hope I didnt waken you, or
Man: No, uh-uh, I I just was coming inside and heard the phone ringing and dashed for the door.
Jones: All right. All right. Thats thats kind of you. Uh, I just thought I would check with Sammy to see if she had heard anything back on this article, which seems to be (Pause) being delayed uh, more and more.
Man: Right. No, well, shes not here right now.
Jones: Cecil and it looks it looks like its kind of a conspiracy up Did you see the art awful article on Cecil?
Man: No, was it in todays paper?
Jones: No, it came out in um, Playboy, I think, a horrible
Man: Oh! Oh, oh, you know, I saw one of those that was saying, uh, next issue, well have this article (unintelligible under Jones interruption)
Jones: God, it was it was outrageous. It was outrageous.
Man: No, I havent seen that.
Jones: Accused him of uh, something I think (stumbles over words) as I recall, the heading was uh, Cecil Williams says, Fuck the Church.
Jones: And and uh, it went on into the it was a hotbed of guerillas and SLA All the SLA came out of it. Theres something uh, really nasty afoot, and and the ax job (tape distortion for several seconds) press getting a little concerned about people who are trying to do things within the system, to bring change.
Man: Right. Right.
Jones: But, uh, I thought I would just check back. Im Im really tired of worrying uh, about it. I dont I personally dont worry about it, but some of our people are apprehensive, because of our black constituents up in Northern California. Every time we even get good news, we have to double our security.
Jones: How are things going with all of you?
Man: Oh, pretty well, I think. Were gearing up for this uh, affair thatll be here Saturday, and
Jones: Oh, beautiful
Man: thats taking up most of our time, and uh
Jones: Oh, good. I wont take much of your time. I Im Were going to be seeing all of you, I guess, tomorrow evening anyway.
Man: Yes, well be over there.
Jones: All right. Uh, if she has any in input from uh, I (stumbles over words) Ive forgotten the name Howes [phonetic], um, let me you just give me a ring. Otherwise, uh, dont worry about it. Say, uh, Mike has good news. Weve The DAs called in there, and on our behalf, uh well, and even the District Attorney up in Northern California, who is really conservative. I was amazed. Uh, he wri He wrote, and the head of the Ecumenical Council of Churches, our bishop and uh, Delancey Street, a whole lot of people have written the word in, so and now we got our paper out, 600,000 cir
Man: Yeah, I just saw a couple of copies of that.
Jones: You did? Well, I I did that first draft, so dont uh Our journalist uh, in our church didnt get (unintelligible word) at it, so itll be itll be much more refined. Whatd you think of it? Was it all right, uh
Man: I thought so, yeah, I think the message uh, came across, and in terms of what youre trying to do and what youre about and everything, and
Jones: Good. Im not a journalist, and I I I had to throw the thing together, because our journalists are caught up on something were doing for our denomination. So I hope it wasnt too, uh, too unprofessional.
Man: No, uh-uh.
Jones: All right. And good luck in everything youre doing.
Man: Fine. Okay. And well see you tomorrow night.
Man: All right. Thanks. Bye-bye.
End of tape