Primary Project : Transcripts
Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee, III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.
Tape Number : Q 642
To return to the Tape Index, click
To read the Tape Summary, click here. Listen to MP3 (Pt. 1, Pt. 2).
Note: This tape continues from Q 641.
Jones: Well, I uh–
Male: –about going into the jungles.
Jones: That was (tape edit) success and uh, principles.
Woman 1: (too soft)
Jones: He said, they carried our demands, we would not accept Doctor [Larry] Schacht, we will not accept the demands placed on Doctor Schacht, and the pharmacist [Don Fields]. Right.
Woman 1: Um– One other thing (unintelligible) –she doesn’t think that Mingo’d [Vibert Mingo, Guyana Minister of Home Affairs] stuck his neck out because of his own personal security.
Jones: He’s afraid of his job too, hmm?
Woman 1: And he said that uh– And (stumbles over words) in regards to Katie, she thought Judge Bishop was pretty honorable. (unintelligible under radio)
Jones: Thinks uh, Judge Bishop did the honorable thing, and we’ll win. He thinks we’ll win.
Woman 1: He said he wouldn’t– that he wouldn’t be influenced by outside uh, (unintelligible word), he said he didn’t know all the facts. He said he’d uh– he said Bishop, he didn’t think could have (unintelligible under radio).
Woman 1: And uh, he– it said that nothing– he said, don’t be alarmed, ‘cause nothing concrete came out of the conversation, ‘cause Mingo said he wasn’t too involved and didn’t know all the facts behind it. And–
Woman 1: Or at least, he (unintelligible word) like he didn’t.
Woman 1: (too soft)
Jones: This clock. Where the fuck is this clock?
Woman 1: Been on six hours.
Jones: (unintelligible) (Pause) Five minutes to one, this goddamned clock, you got this mother-fucker here won’t work. Don’t look that– Don’t do that to me. (Pause) Hmm? What time is it? Five minutes to one?
Jones: Outrageous. People, keep on these clocks. (Pause) Go ahead, go ahead.
Woman 1: (soft opening) beyond his ability to help, and if we had gone through every possibility that he knows, what else can we do? Doesn’t give Ann the feeling that Larry’s license could be accomplished. He sounded like (unintelligible word under Jones’ breathing) there might be an independent investigation. And right now, there’s so many problems in Guyana that they won’t do as much for us because they don’t want pressure from other elements that we were getting special favors.
Jones: What, they don’t want pressure from other pla–
Woman 1: From any of these elements, that we’re getting–
Jones: What pressure are they talking about? We got no trouble from the PPP, we got no trouble from the WPA, who– who are they talking about, we get uh, other pressure from other groups. That could only be the United States.
Woman 1: Um. I thought you meant other elements within just– uh, just generally in the country.
Jones: In the uh, PNC?
Woman 1: Just in the whole country. (unintelligible under radio)
Jones: The country’s not organized. That’s lovely. That’s a hell of a mess when you haven’t got anybody in control. I hope the– I hope the fuckin’ PPP does something with it. Go ahead.
Woman 1: Um– I’m not so sure if I recall what you meant by the– if it wasn’t–
Jones: Did anybody ask? Somebody asked over there why Coleman, without making clear uh, our– our– our code break, why Coleman did what he did today. If you got any feedback or any news about it– (Pause) You understand what I’m talkin’ about?
Woman 1: Yeah. Sure. We (unintelligible word) toppled over his desk. (unintelligible phrase)
Jones: Toppled over the desk, threw his papers out and walked out of the parliament. That’s the head of the opposition, Dr. Cheddi Jagan.
Woman 1: And uh, she said– (Pause)
Jones: Well, don’t worry about that. They’ve rounded up a whole lot of black leaders in the United States so that– that’s uh– Don’t think you’re any safer in United States, you’re sure as hell ain’t any safer, and there ain’t no goddamn jungle you can pave your way through and get lost in tomorrow.
Jones: You understand, huh? You understand? When they come for you in United States, there’s no place you can go, even if you’re [U.S. Rep.] Charles Diggs or you’re the Secretary of State of Pennsylvania, the black woman, the most prestigious, there no place for you to go.
Jones: The black general they arrested? What was it? Uh– Fifty-eight years of age? And fired him? Go ahead.
Woman 1: Um, Ann thinks that the custody mat–
Jones: In USA, I’m talkin’ about.
Woman 1: That the custody matter should be regarded as a no-compromise situation, that maybe to save them face, we could ask for a temporary license.
Jones: We’ll take temporary license. We’ll take anything. We take no license. (unintelligible name) gone tell me that he’s going in town. I don’t give a shit what they tell us as (unintelligible under radio) I don’t give a goddamn about that.
Woman 1: I think (unintelligible under radio) a temporary–
Jones: Just keep from doing temporary license. Okay.
Woman 1: Um. Oh, this is regarding marriage officers. It– Uh, Mingo says (unintelligible under radio)
Jones: Somebody– gotta see it if you want it– Brother [Willie Delois] Sneed back there, way back in the back. It’s okay. Hmm?
Woman 1: They were asking him why the marriage license hadn’t come through and– or, the marriage officer.
Jones: Yeah, I’m supposed to be– I was supposed to be appointed by the government to be a marriage officer. Why hasn’t it come through?
Woman 1: They said that the person who makes the decisions on marriage officers (unintelligible under radio)– he didn’t think it was a personal thing.
Jones: And the regular guy’s out– out of the country, huh. Uh, passes on my– final passage on me being a marr– ma– a marr– a governmental marriage officer. Go ahead. Are you hearing me?
Woman 1: He arranged an appointment for 10 a.m. tomorrow morning.
Jones: Arrange another appointment for 10 a.m.?
Woman 1: No, with the commissioner of police [C.A. “Skip” Roberts], regarding the Bruce Oliver thing.
Jones: With the commissioner of police in reference to what they’re trying– the Olivers [Beverly and Howard Oliver] are trying to do.
Woman 1: Yeah.
Jones: Um-hmm [Yes].
Woman 1: And they had a question about deleting bar– part about mentioning Mario’s name, and I– and I told Mike that we should, you know, that Mario is– (unintelligible word under Jones)
Jones: Don’t throw– don’t throw– don’t throw the foreign minister [Fred Wills] to the wolves. He’s given us information. No, no.
Woman 1: Yeah.
Jones: Don’t give names of those who’ve appeared even to be friends–
Jones: What’s that?
Woman 1: I didn’t think so, but I told her– (unintelligible word) no, I didn’t–
Jones: Oh, shit, no, don’t start no more shit with that. That’d be my opinion. You can ask the (unintelligible word) people, but that’s my opinion.
Woman 1: Here’s the list of people who are gone right now from the country.
Jones: (unfolds paper) People that’s been gone. Prime Minister [Forbes] Burnham and his wife [Viola Burnham]. Hoyte [Desmond Hoyte, Guyana Minister of Development].
Woman 1: Shouldn’t it have that be minister of justice?
Jones: Minister of justice [Mohammed Shahabadeen]. Jack [Hubert Jack, Guyana Minister of Energy and Natural Resources]. Is he with them?
Woman 1: Yeah–
Jones: That’s good. He’s in the Soviet Union. Jack’s in the Soviet Union. He’s probably the– the– they say he’ll be the next prime minister. Steve Narine–
Woman 1: Narine–
Jones: Narine? That’s the man who was out here too.
Woman 1: Yeah, he was out here.
Jones: Minister of works. Where is he? He’s in the Soviet Union?
Woman 1: Yeah. And the other two are not, but they’re gone.
Jones: [Frank] Hope is not with the delegation but gone?
Woman 1: He’s in Canada.
Jones: Corbin [Robert Corbin, First Vice Chairman of Guyana’s PNC] has been friendly. He’s in Canada too?
Woman 1: That– uh, he’s on business, not on vacation.
Jones: On business. (Pause) Hope– That’s the shits. (More deliberate) What about Russia? What about their meeting with Russia today?
Woman 1: Okay, they– she’s got more on (unintelligible word). I can tell you that–
(Radio interference, technical problems for several moments)
Jones: We’ll get it from here. When are they coming? Are they coming on a– are they on a boat?
(Radio interference, technical problems for several moments)
Woman 1: –involved in a hard time campaign but the– the Guyanese put up with it.
Jones: Cuba said it’s interesting that nothing’s happened, that there’s not a revolution yet. Okay. (Chews ice)
Woman 1: (unintelligible)
Jones: They think they will?
Woman 1: (unintelligible)
Jones: Then what’s going to come out of the USSR? (Tape edit) Nothing can be– What the Cubans think of Russia, yep. (Tape edit) (pause) We ask some questions now, if you can ask them. These same questions. What sh– Shirley think that Eleanor will do? Da-da-la-da. We gotta probe probe probe probe probe, get in there with you– we want probe probe probe here. Another few minutes, another thirty minutes or so. Shift, please.
Woman 1: (too soft)
Jones: Wel, it isn’t anything against Shirley? Does that mean– uh, does that mean that uh, Oscar’s going to move close to (pause) uh, uh, Rex? Does that mean that? Or does it mean that Oscar is going to get help from Rex with no strings attached? Does it mean that Oscar will be moving towards uh, Netty, or I mean to (stumbles over words), and then by the way, how’s Oscar uh, relate to Netty, and how will they see re– her relating to Netty? How do they see Oscar relating to uh, Eleanor? Do they see any protection, uh, umbrella? Where do they see us in reference to all this shit? (Pause) Talking about Russia, USA and Cuba. Oh, go ahead.
Woman 1: Um, she said thing on– on the (unintelligible word) Soviet stuff–
Jones: Come on, come on.
Woman 1: She– Okay. You’re not going to be able to attend this weekend, but the reporter might be able to come to the (unintelligible word) tomorrow, but most likely he will be able to come. Express concern about resentment in the States (Tape edit) –might be used against us.
Woman 1: He said–
(Tape silence for several moments)
Woman 1: –that um–
(Radio interference, technical problems for several moments)
Jones: Okay. Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. In the Soviet Union, we’ll look into the implications that can be– we can bring about nuclear war if we go into– if we go out of here and Russia gives us cover, unless they give the cover to everybody else that wanted to get out of this country, if it went fascist. But they did not uh, decline– they would look into it, but they can’t do it within the matter of a few days. They cannot do it. That’s in so many words. That’s what– (radio interference) They come up here now, they said the United States, if they come up here, this uh– ‘cause they were coming up supposedly this week. If they come up, it will uh, be used to uh– but the United States to– to further destroy us. (Radio interference) To try to destroy us.
Voices in crowd: (soft)
Male 2: If the Russians come up here.
Jones: If the Russians come up, so they’re not (radio interference)– One of them may come up. The US Embassy’s already approached them to see if they’ve been up here. (Pause) Which is stupid. That’s a stupid way to– to do it, their intelligence must be pretty damn cheap to ask them. That’s not the fucking way to do it. They must have very poor intelligence, if they’re asking. (Pause) (Exasperated) Now, you kids, can’t you come on, man? I’m older– Uh, I can understand some of these people, but I’ll be goddamned if I can understand some of you people who’ve been sleeping half the night. Now come on to– Get to.
Jones: (Normal tone) Okay. Okay, okay, okay, okay. Where– Where’re we at? Wake up, Noah. Where–
Male 3: (unintelligible)
Jones: Haven’t got enough people per– patrol there, going to sleep on you.
Jones: Shirley will fall out of there, if you don’t watch out, on that bench.
Jones: Okay, what’s the– What– what’s the order of the procedure again? Some of them never voted, some of the eighty never voted, you never made a decision?
(Tape edit) (Pause)
(Tape edit) (Pause)
Jones: All right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right. Some of you back here, please, come around to front so I can see you. I think– (Voice rises) (unintelligible name) now what in the hell you doing, sleeping there?
Male 4: Get up front, to the front, punk.
Jones: (stumbles over words) What’s his capacity? He’s going to sleep, dead-ass asleep like this. Nodding’s one thing, but dead-ass asleep, yeah– who– we’d throwed somebody else out here, didn’t we, for that?
Jones: Yeah, but work got him on. What’s he got– what’s he got to say of him?
Male 5: Same thing.
Jones: Just totally asleep.
Male 6: (unintelligible name) Go to the bell. (unintelligible)
Jones: Come on, folks. Your name’s called. What about the work? Roosevelt James. What about it?
Male 6: Uh, he’s been working for Roosevelt for the last two days.
Jones: Uh, Roosevelt, you’re settin’ back there, you heard your name.
Male 6: Just yell it out, Roosevelt.
Male 7: He’s not hearing you right.
Jones: All right, come on, come on, come on. (Pause) The foreign minister may be dying. They dropped here in helicopter. Isn’t life wonderful?
Jones: Man who was very friendly, he’s given us more information than anybody. He may be dying. (Pause) (unintelligible word)
Male 8: Yeah, his work– his work was good all day, we– as long as he worked for me.
Male 6: I see him walkin’ around a lot. I see him walkin’ around a lot. I don’t see (unintelligible word) much work.
Male 9: I sent him up to the laundry one day myself, ‘cause he could go by hisself, he wasn’t going to learn (unintelligible under radio)
Jones: (unintelligible) –any other complaints, Renetta.
Woman 2: Diana Marshall, Diana Marshall.
Jones: Shush, shush, shush, shush, shush, shush. (unintelligible) (Calls out) Where are you going to, to a goddamn flea circus?
Male 10: No, dad.
Jones: I ain’t never seen nothing like this in my life.
Voices in crowd: (too soft)
Jones: What’s that?
Woman 3: (unintelligible) he was asleep in the middle (unintelligible under Male 11)
Male 11: Who said?
Woman 3: John. I just asked (unintelligible)
Jones: He said he saw Kenny asleep, and what happened to him?
Woman 3: He saw what happened to Kenny.
Male 11: What’s that mean?
Woman 3: Usually the one asleep.
Woman 3: You know it’s a White Night, and there– and uh, you shouldn’t be going to sleep, ‘cause you know what happened to– to uh, Kenny, and Kenny coulda been on Learning Crew, and you could be too. So you need to stay awake, and everybody else in here. (pause) No, I wasn’t.
Woman 4: You walked in here like you were (unintelligible word)
Jones: It ain’t pleasant. I know it’s not pleasant, children. But my God, somebody’s gotta fight this revolution. I didn’t ask to uh– (Pause) for any considerations. I was young, just like you, and I chose to– when I coulda gone the easy way. If there is any easy way. A millionaire, and gave it up. Looks to me like you kids try to stay awake and carry this revolution, ‘cause I’m long long in the battle. (Pause) It’s hell to plan this whole place, plan escape routes, plan– (Pause) plan escape routes, plan how– if we go to the Soviet Union, plan if we all commit revolutionary suicide. Review it, because people’s minds change. I don’t like to do this, but we have to do it. You’ll sleep late tomorrow, you can be assured.
Jones: We went several months without a goddamn White Night. It’s just (unintelligible word under radio) we are, misfortunate (unintelligible word). We’d like you to know, this is not participate, not said a damn word, this is new, they hadn’t involved themselves, you should be concerned about it. We’re in a wartime emergency–may be innocent, it may not have any meaning at all, but we need to find out where in the hell people’s heads are. (Pause)
Male 12: I don’t see how you can go sleep anyway, you almost brought the house down on us before, it’s– all you sleeping on the security. In the night, it’s not security. In the night, it’s a White Night. And how you could sit out there–
Jones: (unintelligible under male and radio) –sleep on security once?
Ingram: –at the front gate.
Jones: –at front gate.
Ingram: With harassment– With harassment–
Jones: When we were– when we were being attacked–
Ingram: And off– off the gate (unintelligible under radio) about Tim Stoen (unintelligible under Jones)–
Jones: They gave us the wrong– You– Yeah, you gave us the wrong codes. Yeah, you– you set on them. You get on Learning. You gave us the wrong uh, codes. It almost brought us to death. All of us. You gave us the wrong codes. If I hadn’t used judgment, (stumbles over words)– that had been the end of it. They told us– they told us, Tim Stoen was on the road, gave us the code for that, and he’da been shot away, blown away. We had just– just minutes. And that’d been the end of it. It’d been the wrong person blown away. But I had the feeling it wasn’t right.
Male 13: Thank you, Dad.
Jones: You should never sleep. Of all people, you should never sleep.
Male 13: (unintelligible)
Jones: We’re gone deal with you. You’ll cool– You’ll cool it. You brought us almost to death. (Pause) And I forgive– I don’t hold it against you, but when you repeat the same pattern– Now what was I talkin’ about when so rudely interrupted?
Male 14: About Fred Wills– Fred Wills, the foreign minister, Fred Wills, is dying.
Jones: Yeah, well, the foreign minister’s dying, probably, yes, but– unless something intervenes. (Pause) (Tape edit) Okay. Strong pressure in United States hanging over our heads. Strong pressure hanging over our heads. It’s pretty goddamn strong, when it goes clear up to the top. (Pause) Division internally here, uncertainty as to its future, we’re asking any more questions of the Russians now at this ungodly hour. (Pause) Now. Can you tell me? (Moore emphatic) Can you tell me?
(Pause) (tape edit)
Ingram: For persons that didn’t get up, you know, new persons that’ve been sitting here all the while this White Night’s been going on, there’re a number of us been through this a number of times (clears throat), but some of you that are new, uh, haven’t gotten up to say anything and oughta be– I understand while I was– I was out that some of the new per– persons got up and spoke. Some others of you didn’t. (Pause) Let your conscience be your guide. We’d like to know what’s going on in your heads.
Male 15: Let the collective conscience be their guide.
Ingram: Well, you know, and I can’t speak for–
Male 16: If you want up there before you know who you are– (tape edit)
Ingram: –know, we’re talking to you.
Jones: (unintelligible word) then, they’re not doing their goddamn job in there. That’s the first question you’d ask. What’s this? What’s tha– what’s this?
Woman 5: I was saying, Dad, I didn’t hear John Harris make a statement tonight about a White Night.
Several people talking over each other
Harris: Uh, because we’d gone through the other situation, I assumed that it– that wasn’t– (tape edit) Uh, yeah, um. I um– I gave a vow several months ago uh, which uh– over the radio. So that was the reason why I didn’t make uh, make a statement.
Voices in crowd
Ingram: You had better help us to know what’s in your head, what’s going on in your head right now. I mean, you know, over the radio is something, but you know, you’re sitting’ in the midst of 999 other folks.
Harris: Um– my vow still stands as it did several months ago. Otherwise– I would–
Harris: I– I’m gonna tell you, yes.
Ingram: Go ahead, (unintelligible word), go ahead. Just say it.
Harris: I came down here to– I came down here to fight and, because I have a debt – I have had a debt – for many years, and I still have a debt, and I intend to uh, give my life to pay that debt.
Jones: Stay in there in counsel, ‘cause you’re o– one of people in P.C., so stay in there, get involved and agitate.
Male 17: That’s– that’s one thing that had me worried– that’s one thing that had me worried, in terms of your not in– involving in any– any interchange that was happening on the floor, John. And you– you know, you know from way back when, that you should be involved in that kind of stuff.
Harris: I thought I was, uh, but when you think, you don’t know.
Jones: I– I don’t recall you being in tonight. It’s possible that I have not conceived of something. Okay. What is it– There’s a line of people now. What they’re gonna– And now they’ve never said anything about it? Yes.
Woman 5: Well, uh–
Ingram: And don’t say (unintelligible under woman) either. Make it short and sweet.
Woman 5: Well, I’m willing to fight, so I would think–
Jones: Well, we got four– we got some options before we go– You– We gonna get your options tested in people. The options are: the Soviet Union has implied that there could be a war over us. Well, that can give you to believe that the Soviet Union might not be so inclined to pull us out. Be the worst come to worst, nuclear war is a– is hell. Although they gave us assurances that they– that that was certainly within the real of possibility they could do it, but they couldn’t do it quickly. They would not give up possibilities here. The jungle has opportunities. They gave that uh, as an out too. There are other opp– opportunities and other things happening, but they’re a little skittish about talking. They can arrange for uh, uh, Dr. Jagan, but Dr. Jagan didn’t like to be interrupted in the morning, which don’t make me feel very good, in the wee hours of the morning, and they knew when we’d talked to him in the last time, and he was very friendly, but evidently, made some complaint about being talked to at that hour. Uh, what’s (unintelligible word). Also bothers me – and I don’t think no communist should be bothered when there’s emergency – uh, at what hour they’re interrupted. If they really– if they are communist. If there’s any other communist leader except Jim Jones. Okay. You got revolutionary suicide and a task force that goes out to get our enemies. Take a potion and we go, all of us go. Or we go into the jungle. Or we make some kind of a militant stand here, demanding exodus. Oh, you can say, oh, we’ve been though that. Yeah, have we. I doubt if some people ever went through it. They just sit here. And maybe after the third and fourth time, it does go– it comes through their mind. Now I gave you some options. Which of those options do you vote for, and what is your position about oth– other– everything? Go ahead, dear.
Male 18: You got the microphone right (unintelligible word)
Jones: Quickly and get it to the point. I made it very clear.
(Feedback, crowd noise)
Jones: Handicap persons should be given attention.
Joe: All I know is, this is the only place I can– that I could be (unintelligible word). In the States I would have been dead.
Jones: Well, that– that– that– that’s fine, Joe. And I sa– I appreciate that. In– He states you’da been dead. Now what you going do that you’re here, when you also could be dead.
Joe: I’m doing what I can to–
Jones: (Exasperated) You guys have got to think. I just gave you some options. You got a good mind, even though you had your problems, physically. You had a good mind. You’ll do whatever uh, what? That Father tells us to do? Father gonna make the decision for one thousand lives?
Scattered in Crowd: No.
Jones: Come on, (unintelligible word). I gave you some– I’ll give you all these options. Uh–
Joe: I’ll uh– I’ll die.
Jones: (unintelligible under Joe) Check this blood pressure and see. What?
Joe: I’ll be glad to–
Jones: (cries out) Die? Die? (unintelligible phrase) dig through this goddamn pulling teeth shit. Now there all kindsa ways you can die. Do we die through– immediately say it’s shit on people, it’s come to the end, we’re the only communists left and commit a revolutionary act of suicide, de– delegating our people back in the States to– to– to do the finality, to do the final work? Uh, do we– do we go that– do we go that matter and– and uh, uh, or do we go into the jungle and give ‘em a run for their money, with a lot of assholes that’ll gripe afore you get uh, 18 feet inside the jungle. And some you’ll have to take care of before you get very far ‘cause they won’t walk a damn link, and uh, when you– they don’t walk, we won’t be able to burden– we won’t enbar– we certainly will take care of people who are handicapped, but we will not be able to carry every fucker and wait for every fucker that decides to come on their own speed. Do we go into that jungle, try to find to try tribes and we can elude them for a while, make a certain historical precedent, and can be the talk. We can carry a– a radio and use it for a while, uh, it’s battery-charged. Uh, all these things are gonna have to be worked out, Doc [Don] Fitch, some of these people, electrical people, gonna have to get their mind ready for that kind of a portable operation, and then let them know, uh, we may tell them before we go, but you better not, you better have your uh, system already in there, and put your antenna up where it can’t be seen from air, and your cover for any path, even a bulldozer path cannot be seen from air inside that jungle. (Pause) And you can do that, you can ask for immediate asylum, refuse to eat– refuse to eat, go on starvation diet, uh, (stumbles over words), starvation fast, as all the women of Nicaragua are doing right now, to get free from dictatorship, as–
End of side 1
Jones: Off in Russia, back we go again or uh, wherever the hell there’s a struggle, it seems to be Zimbabwe right now, uh, wherever in hell. (Pause) We can’t be dropped in Zimbabwe, we’d have to be dropped in Mozambique, someplace else, because Zimbabwe doesn’t have a recognized government except the fascist government that’s about to be overthrown, but is not overthrown. The Zimbabweans are fighting now. Over on western coast of Africa. Ethiopia’s won their war. (Pause) Now what?
Joe: Uh– uh–
Jones: And that’s the kind of shit we gotta think about. You gotta think about it till you think about till you’re tired of thinking about it, but you gotta think about it if you’re a communist. (Pause) Or you can stay here and just wait for them to come on the hill and fight it out and die right here whenever the hell they come. But it’s dangerous. You gotta have this thought– thought out. The children put back in the jungle in this uh, uh, haven, and then have them put to sleep and the seniors that uh, aren’t able to fight and hope that none of us get captured and try to do everything (stumbles over words), the last stand, fall on your own bayonet or shoot yourself, if the– if the war is lost. First round, if they came in here, we’ll win. We’ll pick up some uh, weapons and uh, we can make an incident. We can make an incident in history. We can make an incident. But the point is, if the fascists take over, will the people coming after us know what the hell’s happened in a predominantly– those that march in here will be black soldiers. (Pause) Not knowing what the fuck they’re doing, ‘cause they didn’t– like you, they didn’t stay awake and listen. They didn’t do their socialist classes. (Pause)
Ingram: All right, Joe, you heard it.
Joe: (Slurs over words) The thing is, uh, I– I would– I want– I want to work, you know, I want– I want do the work I can, I wanta– I wanta–
Crowd: Calls out
Joe: I wanta– I wanta– Yeah, I wanta die, I wanta die. (Breathes)
Voice in crowd: So you want to work and die, man– (unintelligible under Joe)
Joe: Dad, I wanta– Yeah, I– (breathes) I want– Anyway, I– I want to get there that pot of gold (unintelligible word) for weeks, you know, uh– I want– I mean, I go on a starvation diet or whatever, (stumbles over words)–
Jones: (Exasperated) Goddamn, I just went through all this, Joe. You’re bright.
Jones: Somebody planted “dying” in your head, and so you come up with dying.
Jones: You decide you go on a starvation diet. That’s brave and wonderful, but maybe that’s the simplest solution. We don’t look for the simple solutions, we look for the right ones. (Pause) I’m– I’m tired, man, I got blood pressure problems, whatever the hell.
Joe: Well, I– my apologize, Dad. (stumbles over words) I want– One thing is (stumbles over words)–
Jones: (Exasperated) Pressure’s going up again, high. (stumbles over words) Goddamn it, I don’t know how much– I– Don’t I speak the king’s English? Did everybody understand those alternatives or did (stumbles over words)– Did– Did you understand them?
Male voice: Jonestown (unintelligible word)
Jones: (Calms slightly) He’s intelligent. He writes intelligent letters. (Pause)
Woman 6: Say something, Joe.
Jones: I’ve repeated it twice. Have I not– Did I– Tropp, did I make this clear enough?
Harriett Tropp: Yes, you did.
Jones: Now I– I don’t want to repeat it again. I don’t want to repeat it again. I’m tired of hearing my voice.
Ingram: Come on, Joe. Put your–
Joe: I want to– (stumbles over words) I can’t ex– I can’t– I– I can’t–
Male voice: Afraid to die?
Joe: No, I’m not. I’m not scared to die here. What they did in– in the hos– in the hospitals in the States, I’m not ascared to die.
Male 19: Well, how you gone die? That’s what you gotta decide now.
Woman 7: –twenty options.
Joe: I’m gone be shot down. I– I don’t care what they do to me.
Male 20: Well, lookee here, Joe. They said that you want to go in the jungles, gonna make the way out of the incident in the jungles.
Joe: Yes. Yeah, I want–
Jones: That’s the first solution he gave you.
Male 20: I think you want to die while (unintelligible under other chatter). You want to go on a hunger strike.
Male 21: –go on starvation diet. (pause)
Jones: Hunger strike, and– or somebody get– get uh, no work. (Pause) He wants to work. He wants to work. He wants to work and go on a hunger strike and die?
Joe: (stumbles over words)
Jones: Now, I say, if you go on a str– you don’t– uh, you don’t work any more than you have to, to produce the land if you’ve not got hope. You got hope? We always hope, ‘cause we been through darker points than this and come out of it. The whole damn country was taken over entirely. This time we’ve got s– It’s qu– it’s wavering. (Pause) Now. (Patient tone) I’ll go over this one last miserable son-of-a-bitching bastardizing time.
Crowd: (Scattered calls)
Jones: We can take at issue here, and go on a hunger strike, or one of us– uh, that could be the first step. No– Uh, stop work. Non-work pattern. Work stoppage. Strike. Let it be known we’re striking. We can uh, withdraw all services, saying that all clinic services are denied, which is I– I don’t think’s wise. In my own opinion, but we can’t let anybody in. We have no choice. We take the clinic– the people to them, we take the medicine to them, that’s all we can do now. If somebody comes to the gate, we’ll have to send some medical people down there. We ought to have that strategy, say eight dollars, that’ll the doctor down there this time, ‘cause–
Male in crowd: –even if the doctor’s home.
Jones: Well, yeah, the doctor’s out. We can find that– that’ll fol– follow that, that’ll be the first thing, ‘cause we’re too– we’re in too heavy a White Night if this goes on. This shit can go on, now. I mean this is w– this is shit that can go on. Now, we– if we go into a stri– a sitdown strike, we can go into a food strike, uh, not eating, or we can step it up and make a display of one of our people, demonstrate it by giving their body to be burned or whatever in the hell is necessary. In– in uh, Georgetown or in Washington or whatever hell. Making certain demands, like, we want our doctor, we will have our doctor, we’ll have our pharmacist, we will have our school– Where’s our school at this particular point, we won’t know that till twenty-first, right?
Jones: (unintelligible under radio) –shits. And then they gotta go in– Oh Christ– Oh Christ on a goofy ass– (Pause) We’ve been promised our school, guaranteed it, in fact. But the guarantees of men about as good as the guarantees of the treaty to the Indians, I suppose. (Pause) Bet certain number of our people have to go in and to– to negotiate with them. I mean, to finish the final arrangements. And they leave what, Sunday?
Woman 1: Sunday night.
Jones: Sunday night. This is what, Wednesday?
Woman 1: Mmm-hmm [Yes].
Jones: Okay. Hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm. All right. We’re in Thursday morning. (Sighs) Then you can make a demand, uh, you can m– In the– In that center demand, if you make your demands too strong, any country’ll find you too hot to heavy, uh, too hot to handle. You can qualify your demands ba– based on what you want to do. You want to get out of here to go to Cuba or to Russia or to Mozambique, so you can get into uh, Zimbabwe and fight? Then you’d have to make your demands not so crazy. If uh, if uh, it is uh, demands just in the internal sector of the country, you can make your demands more stringent, I mean, you can make you dev– demonstrations perhaps more heavy. But how much these apathetic people who’ve inherited socialism rather than fought for it will be able to communicate, it’s an unknown quantity. We have won lots through White Nights. More when we had the foreign minister, though, than before. He seemed to understand crazy nigger talk. But our Doctor Mingo, who’s our uh– Dr. Mingo who’s the minister of home affairs and immigration, seems to understand a lot of it too. ‘Cause every time we get crazy nigger, he also bends. We’ve not tried it on some of these other cabinet ministers. (Pause) Now we can make more demands, I say if we’re trying to just stay here. Then if we don’t meet them, after some point, I don’t see sitting here starving to death, uh, you burn down your buildings, s– set fire to your fields, so nobody can inherit it, and you die. Uh, sending so many people across the border, out on the boat, to try to get to the uh, uh, some debarkation point to get back to the States to assist those that’ll be k– uh, doing justice to the enemy, and a few other things that might be– that’ve been laid out already. The plans have already been laid out. And all they need is a code from the radio. Uh, the other– you can go out into the jungle, we can carry our radio portable with us, and our bulldozers, our heavy equipment, and carry food– heavy equipment, as long as our fuel lasts, and as long as fuel as we can carry, then, by God, we had to get down to packin’ food on our backs, medicines on our back, uh, uh– [Jewell James] Simpson’s having such trouble staying awake, he perhaps ought to just rest or so– uh, someplace. (Pause) We can uh, do that– Huh? That’s okay. Okay. Meet the tribe– meet some tribes out there, and try to elude them, and just show to– to the fascist enemy that well, they’re– they’re brave people, they tried like hell to elude the enemy. Now that’s uh, that’s some alternatives, and somebody may think of something else. ‘Cause I’ve got goddamn blood pressure affecting me and several nights of no sleep. Uh, those are some reasonable alternatives. Now if you come up with something better, that’s fine, I’m open to that. (Pause) What the fuck about Parliament now? Okay, now go on, now– now– now you got four alternatives. Uh, now start again, Reb [James Edwards], will you m– monitor here?
Joe: I– I would want to choose first, uh, Dad, ‘cause I wouldn’t want to eat, ‘cause I just– I wouldn’t– I wouldn’t eat no food or no food. And uh, you know, whatever work I’ll be doing, I would, uh, I’d do that though, ‘cause I wouldn’t– I wouldn’t– I wouldn’t eat, though, I wouldn’t want to eat. I wouldn’t want to eat no food.
Male 21: What would you decide if all the community–
Crowd: (Scattered voices)
Male 21: What decision would you make if (unintelligible under Joe) the whole community–
Joe: (stumbles over words) As a whole community, I would be, don’t eat. Don’t– don’t eat.
Male 22: Did you understand the plan that Dad just spoke to you?
Crowd: (Scattered voices)
Ingram: These people, and then come back to Joe, okay?
(Tape edit) (Pause)
Reb [James Edwards]: Make it very brief, very brief. Right to the point.
Woman 8: Okay. Well, uh, what I decide to do uh, like, for the White Night, I would just as soon not to eat or go out into the jungle, because I would just as soon to die here as I would back in the States.
Reb: Well, what you say you want to do now?
Woman 8: Well, I– I could do without food or go out in the jungle and fight–
Reb: Which one is it? You got two there, now which one?
Woman 8: Oh. (Pause) I would rather not eat any food at all.
Ingram: Yeah, but the thing is, we’re not talking about– uh, not talking about not eating food, we’re talking about, how do you plan on dying? All right? Dying.
Woman 8: I– I’d just as soon to go out in the jungle.
Jones: (unintelligible beginning) make your decision. The Soviet Union says, think it over before we meet with Dr. Jagan. It could cause us troubles with the government. So it seems like the Soviet local embassy doesn’t understand that principle doesn’t think about what kind of trouble you got, but what principles require. They seem to like us. Maybe they see something coming. Who knows? (stumbles over words) Naturally, they’re not going to trust us, but uh, I don’t want to take my service, or reaction on it. They seem to like us, and naturally, they’re thinking about us when they’re telling us not to meet with Dr. Jagan. But if it’s out of concern for what might happen to us, it seems to me that all Communists should be thinking about what is if– the principled thing to do. Unless they know of something coming up, which is the unknown, unknown, unknown, unknown. They do know that we met with Jagan, ‘cause they told exact hour we met with him in the morning.
Woman 1: They also told us the CIA was at our program.
Jones: The CIA was at our program?
Woman 1: That’s what– (unintelligible under radio), agree with them, (unintelligible word) I think another–
Jones: The CIA was at our program. The Soviets have warned us.
Woman 1: –said that the CIA (unintelligible)– the other thing. I might transcribe the tape, because Maria [Katsaris] and I may have gotten different things. They said that uh, they thought we were too direct and that–
Jones: Just asked them that, huh? Said our speeches were too direct, the CIA might harm us. (Short laugh) Ain’t this the shits? Remember that. CIA might harm us. Who gives a shit? (Pause) Goddamndest mess I ever did see.
Male 23: – (unintelligible beginning)– take a long time, but some days it takes thirty seconds on a case (unintelligible word). Might take days to get an answer. I really think that they– they ought to get an answer– they can’t answer that before. It has to go all the way– (unintelligible under Jones)
Jones: It’s already on its way to Moscow.
Woman 1: They said (unintelligible under radio)– didn’t not give enough details such as the numbers of people uh, our financial status, the purpose of wanting to go, what do we want to do, and he said to anticipate a hundred questions and try to answer the questions along (unintelligible under radio)
Jones: (Briskly) Well, get the fuckin’ questions to us if– we– we want to know what questions we– we need to answer, that uh, to– to go, we can give them uh, some (unintelligible phrase), she can give you some idea of that, uh, carefully, I want that to go– I want to be sure that that goes through– say, we got no security when we’re talking about this kind of shit. It’s into the millions. We all went through that, and how many questions they want answered, uh, so we can get this cleared up, so we have this option of leaving the Soviet Union. What do we want to do? Fuck, be free. I don’t give a shit if I– I clean shit in a pigpen, or they can put me in jail in Soviet Union, if there uh, any question at all that I’m wanting to build a movement, uh, outside of the Soviet Union. I don’t– I don’t give a goddamn. Anything to get my people some freedom.
Jones: They got the bibliography, they got the chronology on us already, I’ve– I’ve written that. That’s sent in. Reviewed that and gone. It’s on to Moscow. It’s the shits, man, this is the shits. These people gotta realize that time’s of the essence. Okay, what is it now, uh, Joe, what’d Joe decide? Is he working and gone die, or what’s he gone do?
Jones: What’s that?
Male 24: Go back to (unintelligible word). We’re gone go through the rest of the line, and go back to–
Jones: Oh, we’re gone go back to Joe after he thinks about it. Go ahead.
Woman 9: I– I don’t understand much about–
Jones: I didn’t catch it, didn’t catch it.
Woman 9: What you’re talking about, but whatever I can help do, I would be willing to help.
Jones: (unintelligible under radio) This is artificial. We are tal– Shut up and uh, talk louder please.
Woman 9: I said, I don’t understand much about what they’re talking about. But whatever–
Jones: You– you don’t.
Woman 9: Whatever it is, I’ll be willing to help anybody do anything to help.
Crowd: (unintelligible under radio)
Woman 9: Yeah–
Jones: All right.
Male 25: Will somebody please–
(unintelligible under radio)
Jones: Well, don’t tell her that flat fo– flat-ass out like that. ‘Cause we don’t want an army com– coming in tomorrow. Shit. There ain’t no army gonna come here tomorrow.
Male 26: I didn’t know she was (unintelligible)–
Jones: I know, I know he didn’t know that, so that’s why I wanted her to know, that you didn’t know, so she doesn’t repeat the error. Shh. And some of the rest of you that didn’t talk, there’re some names here that we– any– any name that you want to talk so we can talk here quickly, to get ‘em– to get ‘em to talk. Anybody in this audience that you see that’s quiet– ‘cause the last group that came in, some of them were not asked the specific solutions. They’d die, yes, but. Now we’re down to– the only other time it’s been this bad was in September. (Pause)
Male 27: Uh– I’m for staying here and uh–
Jones: Shh. Quiet.
Male 27: I’m for staying here and not–
Jones: Talk a little louder.
Male 27: I’m for staying here and not running through the jungle. If somebody wants to come in and fuck what I’m laying, I’m for staying here and dying.
Jones: Okay. (Pause) Hold it, hold it, hold it, hold it, hold it. What was sister gone say?
Woman 10 [Princeola Bryant?]: I’m uh, willing to stay here and fight. Whatever I can do. I’m willing. I stay here. I won’t go away. I stay here and do whatever I can.
Jones: Okay, darling.
Woman 11: Yeah, uh, tonight–
Jones: Gotta set her by the speaker. Tell her to always seat– uh, will you uh, tell her, uh, Julius [Evans], that she ought to give herself always the best speaker, and ask the usher to get her by a speaker. ‘Cause she can’t hear, and she oughta always be right by the speaker. Go ahead. (unintelligible phrase)– Princeola Bryant.
Woman 11: Yeah, (unintelligible under Jones)– Tonight, myself, I feel like dying for the cause because I believe in it, and if– if anybody came to invade us, I’d be willing to fight and die. But on the other hand, I do think that some people should take uh, pave a way through uh, jungle, so that the only true form of socialism could continue to exist if possible. And if something interfered with that, that I (unintelligible word under radio) that we should all be willing to die.
Ingram: Well, the thing is that–
Jones: What’d you say again now? I’m just– I missed it.
Voices in crowd: (unintelligible word) speak up–
Jones: ‘Cause I’m– I’m sitting on sit of (mimics sounds of muffled speech). That’s what’s coming over our heads here.
Woman 11: Okay, I was saying, Dad, tonight I feel like dying. I don’t mind dying for the cause, because I believe in it. And I do feel that there’s a need for some people to pave their way through the jungles for refuge or whatever, so that the only true form of socialism can continue to exist. And if something happened or interfered, you know, along the way, if the enemy came through the jungle, uh, everyone should be willing to die. Fight.
Reb: Well, what– whatever we gone do, we gone do (unintelligible under radio)
Jones: You can’t leave nobody back.
Reb: Ain’t nobody gone be (unintelligible under radio) in the jungle. Either we all go in the jungle or we all gone stay here.
Jones: ‘Cause you know why he says that? You know why he says that, don’t you? (Pause) Do you know why he says we all have to– No, no, let her talk about it. You know why he says that? And he hadn’t been on P.C., and you have.
Woman 11: I would imagine um–
Jones: What? Please talk out. Please don’t make (slurred word)– any of you have to tell you this. We can’t hear. Please. What is it, sweetheart?
Woman 11: I don’t– I don’t really know, Dad.
Reb: What? Think, (unintelligible name – Sounds like “Rose”), and I’ll bet–
Jones: You don’t know why we’d all have to go together? (Pause)
Woman 11: Well, it– it would be a possibility if we didn’t all go together, uh, I would imagine there’s some of the people that would stay back or some that would go, they– they wouldn’t be strong enough to carry on. Whatever.
Jones: You guys ought to be cynical and listen to your dad’s mind, that’s why I put guards and everybody walks all around, they’re liable to (emphatic) commit treason. Treason. (normal tone) If not, somebody catch ‘em and put them through chemicals and get ‘em to lie on us. If we’re gonna die, we better all die together. Or we’re gonna live, we better all live together, because if we out there and did die, the son of a bitches that stayed here could be twisted and torn and put under pressure, tortured– or some of you wouldn’t have to torture, all they have to do is just lift your fist up, and uh, they’d– they’d lie and our historical demonstration would be– would be damaged. What we were going to do, our demonstration would be damaged, would it not?
Jones: Go ahead.
Woman 11: Well, under those circumstances, like I said before, I don’t mind dying, and I do like the idea of some being delegated to take care of some of the enemies.
Jones: Yes, that’s good. Mark her name down. (Pause) I think you could take– (unintelligible under radio) What would you do after you took care of the enemies?
Woman 11: Commit uh, revolutionary suicide so they wouldn’t be able to to– torture me.
Jones: Put her name down. (Pause) Go ahead.
Older man 28: Well, Dad, since we found the Freedom Land but I can’t get to work and die for it. But I would suggest that we see that we going to uh– that we can’t win the battle that we make our way through the jungle somewhere, if we all be together. That we would stand a chance of escaping and building someplace else.
Voice in crowd: What if we don’t (unintelligible under radio)
Older man 28: Then I say we die.
Voice in crowd: How?
Older man 28: Well, I just take– I just take (unintelligible under Jones)
Jones: But as long as we got some money, yeah–
Older man 28: But I would rather die than–
Jones: Now, hold it, hold it, hold it, hold it, hold it, hold it, when I’m talking please. We have so– we have, as I said, money to get us several months. And they block off our checks, we got money. We got cash. We got gold. We got some stuff we could sell. Money is universal language. It’s universal, wherever you’re at. Particularly the dollar still is, ‘cause it’s being upheld by a reactionary oil. What’s the matter back there? What’s the matter back there?
Crowd: (Scattered voices)
Jones: What’s the– what’s the condition there, please?
Crowd: (Scattered voices)
Ingram: You’re not Jim Jones. You turn around this way, please. Turn your heads–
Jones: What’s that? Hmm?
Jones: Okay. You’d like to chance it through the jungle, then.
Older Man 28: Yes, I would uh, Dad.
Jones: That means we’d have to uh, might have to– We may have to make bargains with the tribes, we might have to war with tribes. We might have to try to get what they have. After a while, we can buy. We can buy through much of the area, but uh, after awhile comes to fighting our way to get what we want. And there won’t be no aspirin tables for pain after a while.
Jones: Most of them. Most of them. But we don’t have– Are we taking a lot of valium around here? I’d hope not. Okay, br– my brother. Anybody but– ask, Reb, you’re always good about any questioning. Interrogating. Go– Are you people interrogat– Go ahead. Yes, comrade.
Male 29: I would vote to stay here and fight and die that way.
Jones: Why not the other options? What about the other options that bother you?
Male 29: Why, they just didn’t (unintelligible under radio).
Jones: I– I missed it. Now, I’m not objecting, I just want to thi– know your thinking. What– what of the– what about the ob– other objections, uh, like Soviet Union and Mozambique or whatever. (Pause) Or any of them. Any of the other suggestions. What’s you– what’s your objection to them?
Male 29: I don’t really have any objections. It’s just that I–
Jones: Please talk louder, would you, please. Please. See, we’re– right here we hear nothing but that m– malarkey.
Male 29: I have a little sore throat, and I’m kinda hoarse so I can’t talk very loud.
Voices in crowd: Yell into the mike, dude.
Reb: Shut up!
Male 29: I don’t really have any objections to the other– thing, this is the– the way I voted, and just the way I feel.
Reb: Uh, uh, how– how do you– how do you feel about uh, about the children? (unintelligible word) how do you figure we take care of the children, if we gone stay here and fight?
Jones: You got one, you’d know.
Male 29: I certainly don’t want– I don’t want my daughter to fall in the hands of the fascists, and as much as I–
Jones: If necessary– what would you– If necessary what would you do then?
Male 29: As much as I wouldn’t like it, there’s only one way to go. I would– She would have to be put to sleep.
Jones: Okay. He said, put her to sleep. (Pause) Good. Your father’s, he– your father’s very humane. I’ve thought through those things. I certainly will have a very humane pattern to do so. But if worse came to worse, we’d have to consider that no means that– no means, no means, if a child was somewhat away from merm– from the procedure, no means the child must be allowed to be tortured and put through the hell of what that is, because our government took a young baby, Oblika’s baby, six-year-old girl, beat her half to death, and made her put the wire on his gonads, his penis and balls and cut ‘em off, and he lay there for three days suffering and dying. No child should be made to go through that and then have to live with that scar. None. (Pause) Quit worrying about that lady. I’ll take care of that lady. Will you, please? (Pause)
Sandra: I choose to uh, stay here and make a stand and fight and die if necessary.
Reb: Okay. Wha– what about the other plan? Why– why you just choosing (unintelligible under radio).
Sandra: Uh, I have no objections to the others, I just uh, I think that’s– that would be the best thing. ‘Cause we– we built this place, and uh, we should try to keep it.
Jones: Uh, go ahead– go ahead, Sandra.
Sandra (20’s black): I said that uh, I have no objections to the other plans, that we– we built this place up and I think we should try and keep it.
Voice in crowd: What about the children?
Sandra: If it’s necessary, I’m willing to put them to sleep.
Reb: It will be necessary, if we get to that.
Sandra: Yeah. Uh, right.
Jones: If we lost, it would be.
Reb: All right.
Woman 12: Um. I would be willing to die, and I think we should stay here and fight, and die if need be. And um–
Woman 12: No, I’m not saying it just because I heard, you know–
Reb: What is the other (unintelligible word)
Woman 12: Um, we should pave a way in the jungle, you know, but I think we should stay here and fight and– you know, like, if they come for us– if they come for us and some people can’t go, you know, we still just might have to die anyway.
Tim Jones: What about suicide?
Woman 12: Well, suicide– whatever. But–
Reb: Well, not whatever.
Jones: Not suicide. Suicide’s an immoral act. He didn’t– I wanted to clarify. Su– suicide is immoral, it’s a way to get you back, coming right back through the thing. Only revolutionary suicide is justified, when you consider that this is a– there’s no way to make any moral sense out of– of uh, further fighting, because it’d be maybe black people having to kill black people that they’d use to come after us and we would lose our moral impact, and thus make a witness like other communists have made, and uh, the great leader of the revolution here made, first revolt of the slaves, fifty years before USA, or many, many more– a hundred years before that here. Uh, do like Cuffy did, commit suicide. That’s a revolutionary act. Rather than be taken prisoner, or go back into slavery. (Pause)
Woman 12: Well, I think we should take a stand here.
Jones: He asked you about revolution– Tim, my Tim [Timothy Tupper Jones] asked you about revolutionary suicide.
Woman 12: I don’t think we– I don’t–
Tim: Give it some thought before you answer.
Woman 12: Well, if we– if we had– do you mean, just kill ourselves?
Reb: That deci– that deci–
Jones: Kill ourselves, yes. Kill ourselves.
Woman 12: Yeah? I mean–
Jones: All die. Tribes done it in Africa rather than be taken slaves. Indians have done it, rather than be slaves anymore. They just– we– they had enough of it. They just wiped their whole tribes out. There’re tribes that did it in the– in– further on down in South America, rather than they– they all– they kill every baby that comes in, because they do not have any medical means, don’t have any medical means of doing so. They’re– They kill all babies that come in, so that they will die out by natural process. Shh. Please try to stay awake, please, please, please, please. It’s bound to happen, all the White Nights we’ve had.
Reb: You choose– You choose the other plan, what– uh, this plan, what about the other plans (unintelligible word), you– maybe you see something that we don’t see, we’d like to hear you say it, why you are choosing this one? Yeah. What’s– what about the other one you don’t like. Going through the jungle, what about that one you don’t like.
Woman 12: I’d go– Yeah, I’d go through the jungle, if we had to go through the jungle. And I’d fight–
Jones: If I had–
End of tape
Note: This tape continues on Q 643.
Back to the Top