Transcript Q671

Jonestown Audiotape Primary Project : Transcripts
Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee, III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.

Tape Number : Q 671

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Jones: (reading, cuts in mid-sentence) " – University of Manitoba, and Department of Psychiatry at McGill University. A healer held between his hands for two minutes (Pause) periods a day ten cages, each containing ten wounded mice in separate compartments. The cage was concealed in an open paper bag, into which the healer inserted his hands without looking at mice or cages. A second group of wounded mice were treated in the same way, except that different individual – a different individual held the cage each day. And a third group of wounded mice remained unhandled. Each group consisted of 100 mice in ten cages. The rate of healing was significantly greater on the group held by, uh, the healer, and there was no significant difference between the rates of healing in the latter two." This came from volume four, number 3 of the International Journal of Parapsychology. Now, we could go on and on quoting eminent neurosurgeons. We've even had a doctor, J. Bruce Massey, I think you have uh, some statement, uh, Mr. [Mike] Prokes of his, confirming healings he has seen in Peoples Temple. Would you like to relate that?

Prokes: Yes, and I might add, he is just one of many uh, people in the medical profession who has confirmed the healings that we have seen in our midst. He says, "I have known the above-named Pastor Jim Jones several months, and know him to be of good moral character, honest, sincere, and absolutely truthful in every respect. Pastor Jim Jones teaches Christianity, brotherly love, kindness, and willingness to help friends in need at all times. He teaches all of these things to his members and insist that they live this type of life, every minute of every day. One of his favorite expressions is, quote, We are our brother's keeper, unquote. This idea coincides with his teachings completely. Further, I have attended many meetings of Pastor Jim Jones at Peoples Temple in Los Angeles, California, and many times have I seen him demonstrate his supernatural power. (Pause) I have also seen Pastor Jim Jones heal people who've – people who had been crippled with arthritis for many years. These people were made to walk with regained strength, with the power of Pastor Jim Jones. As a physician of many years of experience, I am convinced that these miraculous cures are genuine and permanent. Pastor Jim Jones is unique in his performance. He should be seen and heard by people of the entire world. He has the power to prove all his claims if he is given the chance to do so. This world will be a better place in which to live because of Pastor Jim Jones."

Jones: Thank you, Mike. Uh – Different ones of you here, uh, I think you came back, uh, you came into the church, didn't you, uh, Eugene Chaikin, our attorney, from an atheistic background, as I recall. Um – Did you experience some personal healing in the Temple?

Chaikin: (Speaks slowly) That's right, uh, uh, Pastor Jones, I was an atheist when I uh, came uh, to the church. I didn't have any belief whatsoever in any sort of power of that kind, and uh, having always been a pragmatic person uh, I had to be shown, and shortly after I joined the church uh, I did – I was fortunate enough to receive a healing, I had uh, a great deal of painful arthritis uh, throughout my back, and uh, one day, in uh, your service uh, you uh, were conducting the Love Ministry at that time, and – and through your prayers uh, and through God, I was healed of that arthritic condition and have experienced no pain in my back since that time, though before that time I was uh, virtually crippled with it. And uh, this is one of the most wonderful things that's happened to me during my lifetime. I'm sure that uh, any member of the audience that's listening and can hear my voice can hear the sincerity of what I'm saying and, and how I feel about this, because even four years later – and I believe it was almost four years ago this took place – I, I've still no pain in my back, and uh, coming out of that era of discomfort has been a tremendous boon for me personally, and I, I've always been so appreciative of – of it, and of course, I now uh, no longer am an atheist as I was at that time, because it has been demonstrated to me that there is a higher power.

Jones: Uh, thank you, Eugene. Eugene is also uh, a member of the Jewish community and maintains his relationship within the Jewish culture. Uh, we in Peoples Temple, as you may have known in uh, the religious audience, listening audience, do not require that people change their religious faith to affiliate with Peoples Temple. Peoples Temple also, as you are quite familiar probably, has a Peoples Forum, a newspaper, a newsette that goes to 600,000 people in the Bay Area. And if you would be interested in receiving that, uh, particular newsette, feel free to write us. Uh – I'll give you the box number later, and uh, if you would like to suggest discussion topics for us on the uh, Peoples – the voice of Peoples Temple, we'll be very happy to have your suggestions, and we hope from time to time to invite guests who may even disagree with some of our points of view. We believe firmly in Isaiah, where he said uh, that we must come and reason together. This is the way our sins, our problems, our guilts, our difficulties are resolved by reasoning. At uh, this time, I might ask uh, Mr. [Richard] Tropp, who is a college instructor and a member of Peoples Temple, if he's experienced a spiritual healing here in our ministry.

Tropp: Yes, Pastor Jones, I certainly have, and uh, I – I want to echo what uh, the attorney, uh, Mr. Chaikin, said just a few moments ago, that I had no preparation at all for this kind of experience from my background. I came from a humanistic Jewish background, with nothing at all about healing or spiritual healing was ever said. And many years before I came to Peoples Temple, I would – oh, I'd say every two weeks or so, I'd experience ex – intense pain in my stomach region, and at some points, it became so intense that I would actually wish – I would say, I would actually wish to die at certain points, it was that intense, uh –

Jones: (unintelligible – sounds like "I see.")

Tropp: I remember several ca – several times when this happened, and after I began attending Peoples Temple, this was some six months ago, I remember one service, it was maybe two or three weeks after I began attending there, another person through the p – prayer, that was healed, uh, miraculously to me, I had never seen anything like it, of a cancer. (Pause)

Jones: Hold it, hold it. Back up. (Pause) No cancer.

Several voices: Back up.

Jones: I – I'd just as soon cut it to something –

Laughter.

Jones: (Laughs)

Several voices compete

Tropp: I'm feeling (unintelligible)

Jones: You say six months – you said six months –

Unidentified Male: What was that that was long term subject – what was that that Mike said that I – remember, I went like –

Several voices compete.

Jones: No, no, you said other doctors could confirm.

Male: Yeah, he said lots of other doctors –

Prokes: No, I said, people in the medical field.

Jones: Medical field. That's all right.

Male: Did he?

Jones: Yeah, yeah.

Male: Let's go back –

Several voices compete.

Jones: You said – you, you said six months, and it was six years ago. (Pause) So back up the whole thing.

Male: Has to be six year – it should be six years.

Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It shouldn't be six months, it should be –

Male: Oh, no, no, no, I –

Jones: You don't want to go in – back up, back up, back up.

Several voices compete.

Jones: Back up to where he s – uh, started.

Male: Okay. Oh, boy.

Prokes: You don't want me to bring in the Christian Scientist background, do you?

Male: When were you in Christian Science?

Jones: I n – I, I, I (unintelligible word) get these fuckers upset when you –

Several voices compete.

Male: You uh, will get the uh –

Jones: I don't think –

Male: – Jews upset.

Jones: I don't think I'd come back with the Jewish even. I think I'd start all over again, and don't say Jewish background.

Male: Okay.

Jones: I – I – We got one Jew, you uh, (stumbles over words) – religious background, didn't believe in, in healing – or didn't practice –

Male: Traditional healing.

Jones: Yeah.

Another Male: The Jews will get upset, having a lot of Jewish business in, in Christian –

Chaikin: (unintelligible phrase) Jews listen to KFAX.

Jones: (Pause) There are those – there are those –

Chaikin: Isn't there that Schmidt, whatever that asshole is, that converted Jews?

Jones: Yeah. (Pause) Where are you – where are you there? (Pause)

Engineer: Okay, I'm ready.

Jones: Well, where is he? I know we're ready what –

Male: Where's the – Where's the tape at?

Engineer: All right, at – at – at Dick Tropp.

Jones: How many minutes have we gone? Did you stop?

Prokes: (Low voice) Yeah, something went wrong.

Several voices lament.

Prokes: Did you – did you do it in there?

Engineer: Yeah.

Prokes: How long was it?

Engineer: Fifteen minutes.

Jones: We haven't been on fifteen minutes, son. We started at three – we – we start –

Male: We started at uh, at three-thirty.

Prokes: Well, that – that clock was –

Several voices compete.

Jones: We started at 3:30, son. We started at 3:30, um, uh, that I know, on this one. I started at 3:30, and uh, we been stopped here for five minutes.

Another Male: I think that we need some place in this to talk about love and the regenerative effects of love. And I think that you'll uh – I think it'll uh, diffuse some of the other things that we're doing.

Jones: All right, he – all right. Uh, I'll uh, get in some about people's – the healings too. Okay, now, where're you at, where're you at, David?

David: Uh, the Dick Tropp part.

Jones: Where he begins?

David: Uh, yes, yes –

Jones: Uh, where I what, uh – what – (stumbles over words). You better let me hear –

David: Back it up a little, Scott, before that.

(Pause)

Recording: [Jones] – college instructor and a member of Peoples Temple, if he's experienced a spiritual healing here in our ministry.

Tropp: Yes, Pastor Jones –

Jones: Uh – "ministry." Get the "ministry."

David: Okay.

Jones: (unintelligible) – "ministry."

Recording: [Jones] – he's experienced a spiritual healing here in our ministry.

Jones: Now shut your door, would you, (unintelligible name)

David: Okay.

Prokes: – Going so slow. You're slow. Yeah, it's good to be slow, but that was ridiculous.

Several voices low.

David: Say it (unintelligible) when we start.

Several voices low.

Engineer: Ready.

Tropp: Yes, Pastor Jones, I certainly have. I (Pause) think it was about six years ago when I first began coming to uh, Peoples Temple, I came out of a traditional religious background, and for several years before that, I'd been experiencing severe periodic pains in my stomach region. I remember at times the pain would get so intense that I would actually wish to die. I'd wish that God would take away my – my misery. And I –

Jones: (Voice too low)

Tropp: Yes. And I never ever ex – uh, expected that these uh, this condition would ever be relieved. But I remember several months after beginning to come to Peoples Temple that, one day in the service, uh, I witnessed a very beautiful spiritual healing, and I felt great gratitude at seeing this person – an older person, I believe – remember – uh, receive a healing, and I noticed a feeling in my stomach area that was like something was being released, something was just being loosened up. And from that date forward, I have never experienced any recurrence of what was a almost bi-weekly occurrence of intense pain, and I –

Jones: I see –

Tropp: – am grateful to God for that.

Jones: Uh, how long ago was that in my spiritual healing meeting – ministry. Uh, how many years back?

Tropp: Oh, this was about six years ago.

Jones: I see. Uh, now uh, to my uh, left in our uh, radio room, we have, as I said, Mike Prokes, who is former CBS bureau chief, and he, I think, uh, served in Christian Science faith, and of course has great respect for the teaching that we received in that background. Uh, what uh – what type of healing did you receive, or did you receive a healing here in Peoples Temple?

Prokes: I received a most incredible healing. One day, I – my ear began hurting, and I uh, didn't pay much attention to it, until the pain got extremely intense, and finally unbearable. It was really the worst pain I had ever felt. And so, uh, I went to a doctor as uh, you, Pastor Jones, recommend and encourage we all do.

Jones: Yes, that's true.

Prokes: In fact uh, that's one thing about the ministry that impressed me so much, is that you see all your members get regular medical check-ups, and if they can't afford it, that the church takes care of it.

Jones: Umm-hmm.

Prokes: So I – I did go the doctor, and he gave me some antibiotics for it, and uh, told me to get a lot of rest. So I went home and uh – there was a, a service that weekend that I – I had to miss it, I was in a – so much pain, and nothing seemed to alleviate it. And uh, I was (Pause)

Jones: Close it, close it. You're saying too many "and uh's," Mike, if you can avoid the "and uh's," it's a – it's the only fault you have. (Unintelligible word) Back up, back up to where he's uh – 'cause I interrupted, he didn't know what was going on. When I point to me, that means – to me, give me some – bring me into the picture. Ah, I – I kinda fucked you up back there, but you didn't – you didn't do badly, you went right into it. (Pause) What? You did – you were bringing me in the picture, I have no problem about that. Where're – where're we at? Let's here it, Donny.

Recording: [Prokes] So I – I did go the doctor, and he gave me some antibiotics for it –

Jones: Stop. Stop.

Prokes: – and uh –

Jones: – "for it." – "for it."

Engineer: He says, "antibiotics for it." Right at that point.

Donny: Okay.

Engineer: Cue it to that – right after "it."

Prokes: – for it.

Donny: Okay.

Jones: And shut the door and – when I say "Ready," we'll go.

Donny: Okay.

(Pause of several seconds)

Jones: Ready.

Prokes: The doctor then told me to go home and get a lot of rest. And it happened to be uh, just on the weekend, and a meeting of Peoples Temple was taking place, a, a worship service. And I – I felt badly that I had to miss it, but I was in so much pain I just uh – I – I could hardly do anything. I just wanted to sleep, to escape the pain. And I was laying in bed, and the phone rang, and uh, I went –

(Papers rustling)

Prokes: Uh, take it back, take it back, Ocause I – I want to –

Jones: Take it back to "and uh", take it back. Take it back to "and uh". He's uh – just before "and uh".

Low voices. Several voices compete.

Jones: "And uh – " Find, "and uh".

Several voices compete.

Recording: [Prokes] – to sleep, to escape the pain. And I was laying in bed, and the phone rang, and uh, I went –

Jones: Stop with, "and the phone rang." Stop.

Prokes: – and uh, I went –

Low voices.

Prokes: – doesn't sound like me, you should know that I was healed –

Prokes: – And I was laying in bed –

Prokes: – introduce me as making it sound, you know, like you knew I was healed.

Jones: Why don't – I don't uh – I don't pay any attention to this (voice overwhelmed by tape)

Prokes: I could hardly do anything. I just wanted to sleep, to escape the pain. And I was laying in bed, and the phone rang.

Jones: That's it. Uh, that shows my intuition, to uh, bring something to – to be aware of it.

Low voices.

Jones: Okay, shut the – shut the door. (Pause) We've got nothing of the paranormal (unintelligible phrase) (Pause) When I say "Ready," you go. (Pause) You hear me?

Engineer: Yes.

Jones: Thanks, son. (Pause) Ready.

Prokes: I should mention at this point that the pain – no only did the ear – was – was I in unbearable pain, but I could not hear out of the uh, out of the ear. And I answered the phone and forgot that I couldn't hear in the one ear and put the phone to the deaf ear. (Talks to self, too low)

Jones: Take it back.

Prokes: Take it back to the phone.

Engineer: Okay.

Prokes: I don't know how I can say hear and ear and –

Engineer: Okay.

Jones: All right, what was on that phone? Me?

Prokes: Yeah.

Low voices.

Recording: [Prokes] – and forget that I –

Jones: Take it back where the phone rings.

Engineer: Okay.

Recording: [Prokes] in so much pain I just uh – I – I could hardly do anything. I just wanted to sleep, to escape the pain. And I was laying in bed, and the phone rang –

Jones: Good, son. Now, shut the door again, you know. Proceed. (Pause) And Jim told me, I'd say, and – and Jim knew, and I'll say, I forgot that, I'd forgot that,I recall, I'd forgotten that until you – and you knew and told me what – what – what – where my pain was, where it had been, and it was gone. And I'll say, I – I had forgotten that. I don't retain – I'll say something right that (stumbles for words) I don't retain that sort of thing, really, because there are many phenomena like that that have occurred. (Calls out) Ready?

Engineer: Yeah.

Prokes: I should mention at this point that I couldn't hear out of the ear that was giving me so much pain. Couldn't hear a thing out of it, Ocause I tested it. But when I answered the phone, I forgot about the deafness and put the phone to that ear. And it was Pastor Jones. And he said, Mike, ho – how are you doing? How is your ear? And I answered him, I said uh – I thought for a second, because all of a sudden, the pain seemed to leave and I remembered that I before wasn't able to hear out of that ear. And all of a sudden, I could hear him. And I was healed that – that immediately, it was that instantaneously.

Jones: And that's marvelous. I had forgotten it, but now that you bring it to my mind, it's um – those – those – those phenomena are quite frequent, and I'd forgotten that particular incident. It – It is certainly amazing ah, what spiritual healing can achieve. I remember an Ambrose Worrell (phonetic spelling), uh, an aeronautical engineer, who used a – a healing gift with his wife Olga. He has now made the transition to the other plane. He said once in another case, a medical doctor brought his own daughter who was suffering from a bone disease for treatment. The disease had been verified by x-rays, and an operation had been declared imperative. In Mr. Worrell's words, "I placed my left hand under her knee and my right hand on her kneecap. I felt the healing current strongly, and in a few minutes, I knew the bone was healed. I reported my findings to Dr. uh, G – who thought it would be wise to have further x-rays, because he did not want to delay the operation, if it were needed. The x-rays showed no further evidence of the disease, and two years later, the child was enjoying skiing and swimming in excellent health." We uh, don't see too many – who have this healing gift that we can give uh, some scientific documentation for. The Worrells are, are Methodists. I believe, um, the healing gift of her husband was um, manifest in the uh, ministry of the New Life Clinic of the Mount Washington Methodist Church in Baltimore, and of course we've seen healing in the Catholic Shrine – the Shrine of Our Lord in, in uh, France. We – we certainly see that there is no particular franchise on this, it doesn't have anything to do with the goodness of the minister of healing, it has nothing to do with character, it does indeed perhaps relate to one's faith, and prayer is an essential factor to those who – as we – are Christians and come from the Judeo-Christian background. Well, we've covered the subject of healing today. We might go on to some other subject. I would like to say to you that are out in the radio audience uh, again, if you would like to have uh, more information about Peoples Temple and its vast ministry, we're multi-faceted in our ministry, we have a free legal service program, we have geriatric facilities, children's home for retardeds, an animal shelter, uh, various facilities of that sort, we have our own uh, examination room where we do preventative medicine under the auspices of a medical doctor, and we have a physical therapist and some wonderful equipment, uh, ultrasound I think, and um, diathermic which we give uh, treatment to those who have arthri – arthriti – uh – Stop it.

Prokes: Uh, I didn't mention that uh, I have never told you that I had an ear problem up to that point. We should have got to that.

Low voices.

Jones: I don't know, I don't know. I don't know.

Male: Well, I think that –

Voices compete with recording.

Recording: [Jones] – treatment to those who have arthri – arthriti – uh – Stop –

Jones: Go back.

Male: Go back uh, somewhat.

Recording: [Jones] – wonderful equipment, uh, ultrasound I think, and um, diathermic which we –

Jones: Ultrasound? Is it ultrasound.

Male: I wonder if you shouldn't specify that we provide members with the treatment. I – I wonder if we wouldn't otherwise just get a bunch of people flooding inhere who say, you know, I'm not going to go –

Several voices compete.

Jones: Yes, yes.

Second Male: Back it up a little bit. A little bit more.

Prokes: Well, we have so many members, we can hardly deal with uh, outsiders.

Jones: Umm-hmm. Yes.

Second Male: More. Okay, okay, now play it – play it (unintelligible)

Engineer: Play it.

Second Male: Where you already stopped, you could stop –

Jones: Yes, yes.

Second Male: Good ahead.

Recording: [Jones] arthriti – uh – Stop –

Jones: Go back further.

Recording: [Jones] – we give uh, treatment to those who have arthri – arthriti –

Jones: You gotta go back, son, you gotta go back, son.

Second Male: (Unintelligible) Okay, stop.

Recording: [Jones] – subject of healing today. We might go on to some other subject. I would like to say to you that are out in the radio audience uh, again, if you would like to have uh, more information about Peoples Temple and its vast ministry, we're multi-faceted in our ministry, we have a free legal service program, we have geriatric facilities, children's home for retardeds, an animal shelter, uh, various facilities of that sort, we have our own uh, examination room where we do preventative medicine under the auspices of a medical doctor, and we have a physical therapist and some wonderful treatment –

Jones: Physical therapist. Physical therapist. Physical therapist.

Second Male: Yeah. Take it back to where he says "physical therapist." It's about another few feet. Just take it back to where, uh –

Recording: [Jones] – under the auspices of a medical –

Second Male: No, you had it. Tha – That's what –

Recording: [Jones] – an animal shelter (Pause) – under the auspices of a medical doctor, and we have a physical therapist –

Second Male: Did you get the last part of the word "therapist" on there?

Engineer: Yeah.

Second Male: Okay.

Jones: All right, we shall – When I say "Ready," we'll go ahead. (Pause) Ready?

Engineer: Check.

Jones: We have RN's and nurse practitioners, as I said, who work under the auspices of a good medical doctor friend. We have in our – our medical facilities a diathermy and ultrasonic – ultrasound that is used on members of our congregation who had very bad cases of arthritis, and we see considerable improvement. These, uh, services are rendered to our membership free. We also, as we have mentioned, offer the Peoples Forum, a – a newsletter that goes to 600,000 people in the Bay Area. If you're interested in getting more information about our programs – Peoples Temple and the Peoples Forum paper – write to Post Office Box 15023, San Francisco, 94115. We'd like to encourage you to support various voluntary organizations in the community. If you care to support Peoples Temple ministry, we would be happy. We are affiliated with the Disciples of Christ, a denomination of one point four million, we include, oh, Senators, uh, former president's family, Lyndon Baines Johnson family, and the FBI director, Mr. [Clarence] Kelly, but we would also like to mention some other worthy programs in our area. St. Anthony's Dining Room at 121 Golden Gate, San Francisco. They do such a worthy program, a Catholic organization that serves the needs of people in giving hot meals to people without cost. Salvation Army does of course a great ministry, at 60 Haight Street in San Francisco. The Jewish Welfare Services –

Part 2 – Single line by Jim Jones

Jones: This is your friend –

Part 3 – Phone conversation between Jones and Chris

Jones: Who is fucking over you, Chris? Are you going to let – uh, we got enough common enemies without letting paranoia run ragged through your brain.

Chris: I told you – okay, I'm a – I'm a – I'm – okay, I explained it to – to – to my lawyer, you understand, that you can't – yeah, I told everybody I was going to go for myself, okay. I got everythin' set up. Them people want to kick me outta the high school if I don't have no ID. I ain't got no ID –

Jones: Well, we got – we got that taken care of, man, we've rented a car clear up to the valley to get you a passport. (Pause)

Jones and Chris talk over each other.

Chris: Why you gone lie to me and tell me you gone – (Stumbles over words) You know, I'm layin' – I'm layin' up here with pins all in my leg and –

Jones and Chris talk over each other.

Jones: What did he lie to you?

Chris: He told me, he said when I get back, that you had your stuff, you had your stuff Friday. I – you know – you'll –

Jones and Chris talk over each other.

Jones: Ah, I don't –

Chris: He ain't called – he ain't told me nothing. You ain't nothing but a (unintelligible word). I gave him my number, I said, well call me and let me know what's happenin'.

Jones: Listen, friend. Listen, friend. Uh – you – we are under attack over here, to the point that you wouldn't even know – You will probably read about it in the newspaper. (Pause) You – he don't know whi – which end's up, but it's not any design that he's neglecting you. You've got a problem, and we understand that, if you got a problem of your own physical nature, but we got a problem of the survival of all of us. (Pause)

Chris: Well, I can't cross you. So okay, whatever you say, is, is cool. But see, I don't – okay, you right. Okay, I – Okay, that's cool. That's cool. But you know that – okay. Fuck it. I ain't gone – I can't cross – I – You the onliest person I can't cross. I ain't gone cross you.

Jones: I'd think so. I never crossed you.

Chris: Okay, so – Okay, well, I'm sorry then, all right? But I don't even – I don't you know, I don't like that old dude – yeah, I don't like –

Jones: Yeah, but a – but you got realize, man, I'm pullin' that dude four ways to Sunday, and that dude can only bend so much. (Pause) He only got so much uh, ability. And I can't go drawing on no city lawyers. They don't – They're all capitalists. They're not any place to be found.

Chris: Excuse me. I was gonna – I was gonna get out of here, man, but that's all right. Okay. Everythin's –

Jones: (Incredulous) Gone get out of there?

Chris: Huh?

Jones: You stay there and get well.

Chris: All right. This is my doctor. I was going to get the pins pulled out of my leg, Ocause I thought – I don't like him messin' me around – It's all right, doc, okay?

Doc: (Overheard at Chris' end) All right, well, try not to – The nurse is getting really upset –

Chris: Well, I was upset too, okay? But it's cool now, all right?

Doc: (Unintelligible) – cool now.

Chris: Well, don't worry about it. But it's cool, all right?

Doc: (Unintelligible)

Jones: OS he all right?

Chris: Huh?

Jones: Is the doctor all right?

Chris: Yeah. Well, I told him – I was going have him pull my pins out my leg, and I was gonna come – Ocause I don't want that – Donald Cee (phonetic special) think he slick. But I didn't know, I – I mean, I thought he thought he was playing me for some (unintelligible word) a fool or something, you know.

Jones: Yeah. No, Chaikin ain't trying to pull you for no fool. He ain't trying to pull you for no fool. He's being pulled and pressured – I just stepped off from a reporter and happened to walk down this aisle. Ha – Ha – Harris didn't even call for me. And I heard this voice, and I walked in this uh, this room.

Chris: I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

Jones: So, uh –

Chris: I'm going to let you go, I – Ocause I know how you f – I'm sorry, all right? Okay.

Jones: Well, if you can just keep cool, this is – the man don't need to destroy us other than with paranoia. But Chaikin ain't tried noth – he ain't tried to crap over you. He's not doing anything – don't do no stupid thing that'll affect your health, Ocause we don't want to – we don't want to take any chances to get our body in a bummed-up mess.

Chris: All right, I'm sorry. I'm gone let you go, Ocause I don't want there to be no –

Jones: No, no problem, no problem.

Chris: I'm sorry. Okay?

Jones: It's just easy to get caught up in a – a paranoid world when you're laying a hospital bed. But don't do anything uh – do anything but get well. There ain't nobody gonna (Pause) bother you (Sighs), they don't seem to be digging at us on your score right now, they're on to us about damn communist or something.

Chris: Okay, well, I don't even want to any more keep you talking, Ocause I know what you got to go – but I'm – please believe me, I'm sorry, Jim, I'm – you know, to put you in this shit. But I was just – I – I was really pissed off and mad, Ocause I – you – you know, I didn't know that he was under what he was, but at least he could've given me a call, I thought, to let me know something –

Jones: Well, he's –

Chris: Then when he called me, he gone tell me –

Jones: We were up – we were up all – we were up all night last night, and he's been up so many nights. So he don't know, he don't know which end's up. He really don't. And I'm not – uh, I wouldn't bullshit you – I've never bullshitted you in my life.

Chris: I know that.

Jones: Uh – He don't know what you – he don't know what's going on.

Chris: I'm sorry.

Jones: But, uh, anything he hasn't done, it's not been with intention, it's just because he's simply – he's got too much coming at him. We've got to get four different corp – I – I can't go into it.

Chris: All right, well, don't – let's not say no more, Ocause I – I know how you got to suffer with your – with your things – you know –

Jones: Well, I've got him on so many damn missions, he – he don't know which way he's going. He's got uh – (stumbles over words) he got to go to Los Angeles, on a long trip there, very shortly.

Chris: You ain't got to say nothing. Look, I'm sorry. I'm sorry to even have you in this. And I'm sorry.
Chris and Jones talk over each other.

Jones: And that – they – they will have that passport, and they're going to bring the damn thing in, and uh, s – verify that you – they ain't gone put you on no street. And we can hasten it up if they'll take it tonight, or if it'll – but I was told it could wait till tomorrow morning.

Chris: Yeah, well – he told me he ain't gone be able to get it till Tuesday, and the social worker wanted it –

Jones: Okay, watch out. Ain't gone be – who – who isn't going to be able to get to what?

Chris: He told me he couldn't get it till Tuesday or Wednesday –

Jones: Well, he probably thought he couldn't, but when I heard about it, uh – (stumbles over words) I think uh, Johnny – didn't John reassure you that it would be available on Monday?

Chris: They can't – You know I don't trust – You know John – But I – All I'm saying, I – whatever you say is cool, and I don't even want to keep your voice up. It was good to hear your voice, and I'm sorry to have to hear it under these circumstances.

Jones: No, the – the – the, uh – the – the passport will be there with the business opus – opening tomorrow.

Chris: Thank you, Father.

Jones: They – they've already been given the instructions, and it – it'll be taken care of, so you – you keep cool and don't – and that – what I – pick up the phone every time I heard about Dana, what was you up – were you telling him to do about Dana? You talk – I thought you were talking to him, but I – I took the phone from him, I just asked to give me the phone, you were saying something about do something with Dana. What do you want done with Dana?

Chris: Well, I was goin' to send her home to my momma, but okay, I –

Jones: God – God, don't do that.

Chris: (Chastened) Okay.

Jones: Your sister's talking about moving up here, which uh, I wanted to ask you about, what the hell –

Chris: Well, she came up here to (unintelligible word) this morning, move up here –

Jones: Uh-huh –

Chris: And uh, that'd be good, and – you know, I was just mad –

Jones: I don't think that would be good.

Chris: I was just mad, because I said I been gettin' fucked over by him, you know –

Jones: No, he didn't – he – he likes you, man, but he – he is uh, just – you put too much on uh, Chaikin's brain, and he uh, his – his charges just don't – (Pause) Uh, he – he overcharges, that's what I'm trying to say. He got the – he hadn't got enough spark plugs to take – take what I'm putting at him. Nobody has. It isn't no discredit to him.

Chris: That's right.

Jones: I run – I run these attorneys ragged right now. But I – they're runnin' me ragged. The – the system's out to do us in, they're out for the jugular vein. And we're in the hell of a – we're in a hell of a rat race with these people. I think we'll come out some way, but I – I – not – not if we stay around here too long. I think we'll maybe come out without it being too bad this time, but it – it's still not – it's not good.

Chris: All right. I'm sorry, Dad, now, can let me let you go ahead on, okay?

Jones: Okay.

Chris: Everything is cool.

Jones: I just want you to relax and –

Tape cuts off.

End of side one.

Side 2:

Part 4: Beginning of radio broadcast

Jones: – Peoples Temple at 1859 Geary in San Francisco, and uh, I have with me today some of the members of our staff, and –

Part 5: Conversation before broadcast

Jones: – We'll be on vibration and start – we ought to make a note of that. And hell, that oughta be – that oughta be pretty uh, newsworthy. Goddamn, they ought to put that in the newsletter. Vibrations –

Chaikin: (Unintelligible name) is on that, Jim.

Prokes: It'll show Saturday, and (unintelligible word) in Sunday, too.

Chaikin: What – Today is what? Thursday?

Prokes: We – week from Saturday.

Chaikin: A week from Saturday.

Jones: (unintelligible word) can we find out what the hell we're going to do that (unintelligible word) get that in the paper. That's gotta be done, first thing in the fuckin' morning, uh, does anyone know, Ocause it's Sunday – it's Sunday night, or it's Saturday. And we've got to have that.

Prokes: Oh, bring a TV Guide.

Jones: TV Guide? We'll get it, and let's be sure we have it on the radio program, insert it in this radio broadcast, and insert it in the next – 'cause it'll give Oem warning, and it'll give time for the afternoon. I think as much as – Then we put them in the good kind of stuff – we put it, the good kind of stuff. We – we put the – the head on that goodtime stuff. (Pause)

Prokes: Do I – Do I mention [San Francisco Methodist minister] Cecil Williams or just – or just say vibrations?

Jones: Vibrations, uh, (struggles for words) to the narrator or the commentator (unintelligible word), who's –

Chaikin: (unintelligible word)

Prokes: Host.

Jones: Host is Reverend Williams.

Part 6: Meeting between two women with kids around them.

Most is recorded at different speeds, and is unintelligible

Part 7: Two people discuss hotel arrangements in telephone conversation

Liz: – don't want to go back to Tudoes uh, Dusabe High School – no, I mean, Dunbar. Because there was trouble there and – oh – and at the other school, where we were before, two – I don't think they're – I don't think they'll want to go back there.

Hennington: Well, I – I tell you what, (unintelligible sentence), you know, uh, you know, do what you think is best.

Liz: All right.

Hennington: Okay. Because, uh-huh, you know, I mean, I think, you know, I think you'll find – you'll find something, you know, that, that's really uh, you know (tape distortion for one word) you know, appropriate.

Liz: Yeah.

Hennington: So. So, uh – And, and I know you're willing to do the best you can.

Liz: Yes, I'm willing, Ocause I, uh – but the Hilton Hotel, uh, oh, I think it seated 500, but still, there wasn't enough room, and I – I don't – I tell you what, I'll contact the Hilton and see what it'll be and everything.

Hennington: Okay, that –

Liz: That's what I'll do. But you wanted – See, that was in the Loop. But you want it closer.

Hennington: Um, I don't – I don't have any idea, I don't know that the – um, any up – anything of the vicinity, you know, of that area.

Liz: Uh-huh. Oh, well, I'll do the best I can.

Hennington: Okay, then.

Liz: I'll do the best I can.

Hennington: Okay, thank you.

Liz: Ah-hah.

Hennington: How's Robert doing?

Liz: Oh, he's doing pretty good now.

Hennington: That's good, that's good. Good to hear it.

Liz: Ah-hah.

Hennington: And now, then (unintelligible)

Liz: Now who am I talking to?

Hennington: This is Glenn.

Liz: Wes?

Hennington: Yeah, Glenn Hennington.

Liz: Spell it for me.

Hennington: (Laughs) Okay. My first name is G-l-e-n-n.

Liz: G-l-e, uh-huh, Glenn.

Hennington: And then the last name's spelled H-e-n-n-i-n-g-t-o-n.

Liz: Oh, uh-huh. All right, then.

Hennington: Okay?

Liz: And I do – and I leave that for the call Monday.

Hennington: Yeah, Monday (unintelligible)

Liz: Ah-hah.

Hennington: Okay, well thank you very much, Liz.

Liz: Ah, you're welcome.

Hennington: We surely appreciate it.

Liz: Ah-hah, you're welcome.

Hennington: Okay, you take care now.

Liz: You the same.

Hennington: Tell Robert the same.

Liz: I sure will.

Hennington: Okay, bye now.

Liz: Bye.

Part 8: Sound of long-distance calls being made, no one answers

Operator: Directory Assistance.

Caller: Uh, yes, uh, could you give me the phone number of WVON Radio in Chiacgo, please?

Operator: WVON?

Caller: Mmm-hmm.

Operator: Pardon me?

Caller: Yes, correct.

Operator: Thank you.

Caller: Thank you.

Operator: Okay. (Pause) 847-2600.

Caller: Thank you very much.

Operator: You're welcome

Caller: Bye, now.

Part 9: Radio program

Jones: – I can't tell you, personally, I – I haven't reflected much about it. We just spontaneously decided to discuss it.

Tropp: Not really, except that on the last point, that uh, that the attorney made, Gene Chaikin, I – I do think that in a technological society, we have to really counteract the danger of this kind of callousness that this kind of thinking about life and death with a – a very strongly uh, spiritual uh, uh, meditative reflectiveness about, about uh, life and about these questions. I think we've seen in this bloody twentieth century how the humanistic factor becomes subordinated, when there is so much uh, emphasis placed upon uh, technology, upon machines, upon the wonderness of science, which sometimes can be a curse. So I think that it's important for us as individuals to reflect very, very strongly on this – search our souls.

Jones: I wholeheartedly concur. Indeed there's uh, said to be a great apathy in American life today on many issues, and uh, with apathy present, it's easy for us to drift into – as attorney Chaikin said – uh, a genocide situation. After all, [Adolf] Hitler’s Germany uh, came upon them very suddenly, uh – the Weimar republic was a very democratic government, and within a few short months, we came to a philosophy that it was all right to exterminate one's enemies, and then even the ethnic group, merely because of their religious culture or their ethnic background. It's frightening, and I personally will stick with my Judeo-Christian tradition – "Thou shalt not kill" – until I'm decidedly convinced otherwise. I uh, have great sympathies with the Right-To-Life movement. I also have certainly undoubted sympathy for the mother who has a child that she doesn't want, and there's nothing more cruel than children being brought into a world where they're not wanted. That's a death uh, in itself too. So we've got to do something about prevention. Uh, uh, I – I'm not recommending that mothers uh, be im – have it imposed upon them um, by law that they must bear a child. We would like to create a moral atmosphere, certainly, and uh – a moral rejuvenation, but we don't want to be uh, Pollyannish about it. Uh, I don't know that we're going to reverse all the permissiveness in our society, and uh, this question of the right to life is a very serious one, and I thought at least a few minutes today, could be uh – for the general good of the community, if we would discuss it, and we welcome you in the radio audience, as we said, to give us ideas on things that we might discuss. I'm rather interested too, uh, brothers, uh, your – your opinion about the Patricia Hearst situation. It seemed to me that a number of people took a great deal of satisfaction in uh, seeing this young woman convicted. Uh – The whole concept of brainwashing uh, seems to be, not based on her being rich or poor – I don't think that has anything to do with it – but it seemed to me that we uh, need to look at this question of empathy for a person who's brainwashed, and then the dangerous precedent that anyone's child or daughter or their son might be kidnapped and put through the same kind of thing, and uh – we seem to encourage terrorist groups to practice that type of thing, I mean, such a decision. Or some might say that that – the decision of Patricia Hearst case, where she faces some – I've heard some speculation that maybe six or seven years, uh, minimally, that she's going to face, uh – here we had a case where she was (struggles for words) most people's point of view, at least she was in a closet, there seems to be good authority that she's kept in a closet for weeks at a time. She was only allowed to read certain type of uh, news, which it ah, appeared that perhaps the FBI was her enemy, uh – I could see how she could easily be brainwashed by hearing only one side of it – uh, one point of view. At least we recognize brainwashing in the Korean War, and we said it is a real uh, process that can take place. What's your feeling on this – this subject? (Pause) Yes, attorney Chaikin.

Chaikin: I've uh, read the newspaper accounts of the case with a feeling of uh, a great deal of concern with uh, Patty's situation, uh, regardless of uh, what her actual motivations were. It's often impossible to know. And yet recently I read an article by a psychologist in which he took the position that there are very few people who are not capable of being subject to uh, brainwashing or to have their motivations and their activities very strongly influenced under the kinds of circumstances that she did experience. And that's one side of the picture. However, she was engaged in activity uh – I think without any question at all, she was engaged in activity that, from the standpoint of this society – is just unacceptable, by anybody's standards, and so that seemingly, the society has to have some tool or some limitation than can be used for preventing people from doing things like holding banks up with submachine guns, um – or uh, shooting out the fronts of uh, of uh, sporting goods stores. Uh, and I think this is one issue that the case brings to the forefront that we need to discuss and we need to deal with. It really has to do with the extent of a person's responsibility for his own actions.

Jones: Well, that's uh, certainly something that you would see as an attorney, a different perspective as I – that I see as a theologian, um. I have a great deal of empathy there. I think, but for the grace of God, could go any one of our children. We have seen a lot of precedents, or at least um – the – the news says that uh, it's possible for – I saw a religious group not uh, too long ago that they said, that brainwashing takes place, and deprogramming is done. Now, if indeed brainwashing is – ah, is a fact, then it seems to me that there should've been some consideration for it in – with Miss Hearst. I realize, as you say, we have to decide at what point a person assumes responsibility, and we can't allow lawlessness, but I – I thought I sensed – I hope it wasn't so in the jury – but I sensed in the response of the crowd, that maybe they were reacting to who Miss Hearst was. If – if she had been the daughter of Mr. Average American, would there've as much desire to see her convicted? And of course there are others who say that uh, maybe it would've been worse, but I – my own feeling, having uh – the fact that I pastor a congregation here of over 8000 – um, I've seen a great deal of empathy. But you meet others that come to our various services here, our free examination and – and medical facilities and uh, our legal services and all the programs that we have here for people, and it seems to me that I – I s – I sensed a, a feeling – I don't want to generalize – but a feeling of glee over her uh, uh, being found guilty. Mr. Tropp?

Tropp: Yes, uh, Pastor Jones, I wanted to comment a little bit about that. I discussed this case, uh, somewhat with my students, and uh, they felt – you know, I felt it was (clears throat) an interesting opinion that they had, that they felt that Patty should be put in jail, but I think their feelings were motivated, they said, because they were annoyed at seeing this case exposed so much in the media. They were tired of it.

Jones: I see.

Tropp: They were annoyed by her. The media had overplayed it. They had used the Patty Hearst case and bandied it around and – and kind of made it into a circus. And I think that the effect of that after a while gets a person to maybe have a psychological reaction, that they just are annoyed with it. Let's push it out of the way and – almost, I think, she was not just a victim of brainwashing – and I think she was – I think she – perhaps she was a victim of the extreme amount of publicity that was put upon her. She was rerun and rerun in the newspapers for two and a half years, and I think that could have a toll of people reading the newspapers and not – and not feel well (Pause) you know, they get tired of it.

Jones: It's interesting to have the perspective of a college instructor – (Pause) Cut it. It's what time – How long we been on? (Pause) Go back and erase uh – I don't have any goddamn idea how long we been on.

Tropp: Oof.

Male: For 23 minutes.

Another Male: Uh-huh.

Tropp: Twenty-five to – to the hour –

Several voices compete

Tropp: It's 25 to the hour, so we probably have –

Male: That long –

Tropp: – 45 minutes.

Another Male: 45 minutes.

Several voices compete

Jones: I think we're doing pretty well with the thing. You handled it – you got us out – you got me out of the woods here, I – we don't sound like we're all of one opinion, and I think that's good, uh, and yet you're showing proper respect for me. You want – you want to do that, and we disagree, and I don't think we're (unintelligible word). What uh – what the hell uh – be ca – can you look on that thing, do you know by numbers on that thing how long – how –

Male: Yeah. Yeah.

Jones: How long? How – What time? Can you us what time it is? How many – much time?

Several voices compete

Jones: I want to say – I want to say one thing to you about jails. I want to say, but as far as jail, I would like to say – I don't think jail is an answer for anyone. Um – a judge has been assigned – what was this thing I wanted before I did it, but I couldn't remember it – There's a judge that's been giving people in Florida all kinds of things to do, uh –

Male voice: (Unintelligible)

Jones: Oh, he – oh, he gets Oem uh, responsibilities uh, tasks to perform in the community, they gotta go in and work in certain places in the community, and uh, they do this in lieu of jail or –

Male: Today, I read in the paper, there was an attorney that was convicted of, in effect, illegally soliciting clientele –

Jones: Um-hmm –

Male: And what the judge told him he had to do, if I recall, besides paying a fine was contributing – I think it was like 500 hours to Legal Aid Services.

Tropp: That's right.

Male: Which, uh – which I thought was uh, a much uh, much more effective way of handling it.

Several voices compete

Second Male: They – they were – they (unintelligible) presented convincing evidence that she was brainwashed, didn't they?

Jones: The psychiatrist, you mean.

Second Male: Yeah, the psychiatrist for the – for Patty said they c – did that – the psychiatrist –

Jones: How much – how much – how time was it, (unintelligible name)?

Engineer: Aah, about half an hour at most.

Several voices compete for several moments. Conversation focuses mainly on amount of time spent taping, and how much time is left.

Jones: All right, all right, let's us go on again.

Male: Okay. Can you give us a little playback?

Several voices compete

Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. Play it back. Uh – give us some playback, see how we sound.

Pause. Several voices compete.

Male: We might do one on spiritual healing, uh – along the same lines as, you know –

Recording: [Jones] – a theologian, um. I have a great deal of empathy there. I think, but for the grace of God, could go any one of our children. We have seen a lot of precedents, or at least um – the – the news says that uh, it's possible for – I saw a religious group not uh, too long ago that they said, that brainwashing takes place, and deprogramming is done. Now, if indeed brainwashing is – ah, is a fact, then it seems to me that there should've been some consideration for it in – with Miss Hearst. I realize, as you say, we have to decide at what point a person assumes responsibility, and we can't allow lawlessness, but I – I thought I sensed – I hope it wasn't so in the jury – but I sensed in the response of the crowd, that maybe they were reacting to who Miss Hearst was. If – if she had been the daughter of Mr. Average American, would there've as much desire to see her convicted? And of course there are others who say that uh, maybe it would've been worse, but I – my own feeling, having uh – the fact that I pastor a congregation here of over 8000 – um, I've seen a great deal of empathy. But you meet others that come to our various services here, our free examination and – and medical facilities and uh, our legal services and all the programs that we have here for people, and it seems to me that I – I s – I sensed a, a feeling – I don't want to generalize – but a feeling of glee over her uh, uh, being found guilty. Mr. Tropp?

Jones: I see.

Jones: (during playback) (unintelligible) radio station let us do this, it seems to me that it's much more beneficial, (unintelligible word) in a way. We need to get some letters right away to KFAX, (unintelligible phrase) wonderful, they'll who it is, and so KFAX will be encouraged by it.

Male: (unintelligible) – indication the program has changed formats – (unintelligible)

Jones: What the hell – what the hell were you doing there? We don't dare – We don't dare change – change formats (unintelligible phrase) listening, they'll think it was uh – uh coming over Peoples Temple, it was Peoples Temple, and music and (sounds of mock hysteria) Peoples Temple.

Prokes: I'm not sure I'll be able to change the name on the check tomorrow.

Jones: What –

Prokes: From the voice of Peoples Temple.

Jones: You don't have to. Don't have to –

Jones: It's interesting to have the perspective of a college instructor –

Jones: (Pause) Now we're going to go on. What – you – you're not starting, are you?

Engineer: Huh?

Jones: You're just starting now, getting ready to start?

Engineer: No – yeah – I have –

Jones: (Calls out) Uh, pick it up right after Dick. Interesting to get the, uh, perspective of a college professor.

Engineer: Right.

Jones: Okay, I'll go on from there, okay. (Pause) Ready?

Engineer: All right. (Pause) No! (Pause) Um – I'm ready!

Jones: I want to say, though, um, and we only probably have a few minutes, I haven't even been watching time, I don't think jail's an answer (unintelligible word) for anyone. I notice in judge in Florida that's been making sentences like this, umn, sending someone to be a – uh, working with uh, young people and uh, I saw a case where decided results had been obtained by this measure and uh, attorney Chaikin, you were telling me something about an, an attorney that was just found guilty of some crime and, uh, the – the sentence sound much more rehabilitative than what we find in the overcrowded conditions of the jails of America today.

Chaikin: Yes, I just uh, read a report about this case in the legal newspaper today, and uh, an attorney had been uh, convicted of uh, obtaining clients uh, by soliciting, which is uh, a violation of uh, of law, it's a violation of the professional rules.

Jones: Umm-hmm.

Chaikin: And uh, the judge in the municipal court there did uh, give him a fine, but rather than use jail as an alternative, he ordered uh, this attorney to uh, to give a uh, large amount of time, perhaps 500 hours, if I recall correctly, to the local Legal Services Foundation, um, as a uh, as a donation of his time, and that was in lieu of jail sentence or, or other kind of uh, punishment, and it – it seems to me that this uh, is a very, very positive approach, not only to rehabilitation, but also to using the judicial uh, system in a way that helps the community.

Jones: Yes, and the enormous amount of tax expenditure to maintain these institutions, you, uh, you're doing something constructive with the individual, and you're not exposing them to the type of um, element that uh, I – one of the judges that uh, uh, attended our congregation said that he uh, knew in one instance – in one state where he'd served, uh, the uh, recidivism is so high, I – I've forgotten what he said amongst youth, but that youth that were exposed in this particular institution, 50% of them, of the males that came back were practicing homosexuals. They're all sorts of uh, problems. Not – I'm not making condemnation on one's sexual orientation, but I don't think that the kind of sex activity of a jail, the aggressive and hostile and uh, perverted type of things that we hear as common practice, is any way going to help rehabilitate people, nor is a crowded situation, the alienation, removed from family structure, the nuclear family, uh, (struggles for words) I think we need to uh, really take a, a new look at what uh, should be done to rehabilitate people who have committed crimes.

Prokes: I think to rehabilitate people, you – you've got to get at the root causes of what caused them to commit crimes in the first place. And, from my perspective, I feel that it's either uh, psychological or, or physical needs that, that cause them to do that in the first place. Um – Some are forced into crime as a – as a means of survival. Others go into crime, I feel, because of some lack in their upbringing or their, their childhood development, and they become alienated. And the thing that impressed me so much about Peoples Temple when I came here, uh, when I was with CBS, to do a documentary, was I saw so many people from backgrounds of crime, militancy and drugs who had been rehabilitated effectively, and I saw no recidivism virtually. And I wanted to find out what the reason was, and uh, what I found out was, that uh, in – in this church, which uh, you have provided such a, a beautiful example and inspiration for, people come in from every kind of background imaginable, and there's immediate acceptance, no matter what it – seems to be wrong with the person, they're accepted immediately, and then their abilities and talents are channeled into areas, where before, they had no outlet. And these two things – the acceptance and the, the opportunity to be productive in, in ways that best apply to the person's abilities – fill the vacuum that cause them to go on drugs or commit crimes or become militant in the first place.

Jones: Thank you. We certainly have found uh, positive results in Peoples Temple. Perhaps next session – we'll be on next week at the same time – we will go into some discussion about our spiritual healing. There've been requests that we discuss this. Again, we say to the listening audience, please let us know things that interest you and perhaps we'll even invite some of you on as guests. You've been listening to Peoples Temple Christian Church, a congregation of 8000 members and uh, we are located at 1859 Geary Avenue. Our services – Our service schedule can be gotten by mailing um – ho – hold it, back up, back up, back up. I'm all fucked up. (Pause)

Several voices compete.

Jones: Back up and hear Prokes. Stop at Prokes. Back up and stop at uh, Prokes. His was good. He has a good point. (Pause)

Voice too low.

Jones: Yeah, I suppose. "And uh's", that's much better, "and uh's", I – I don't know whether I did it, but these um –

Prokes: I think a few don't matter. I think it's natural uh – You're not going to hear a program without them.

Jones: No, I don't say so. But they're um –

Prokes: But they are distractive –

End of tape.

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