Audiotape Primary Project : Transcripts
Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee, III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.
Tape Number : Q 678
To return to the Tape Index, click here. To listen to MP3, click here.
To read the Tape Summary, click here.
This tape was originally withheld from public disclosure
Part 1: Conversation between Temple member and aide to John Barbagelata
Sound of phone ringing. Whispers.
Barbagelata Aide: Hello. May I help you?
Caller: Yes, Id like to uh, speak to Mr. Barbagelata about Jim Jones.
Barbagelata Aide: Uh, (Sighs) hes not in right now. May I take a message?
Caller: Uh, is there a place I can reach him?
Barbagelata Aide: Not at the moment.
Caller: Uh, does he have an assistant or aide
Barbagelata Aide: Im one of his aides.
Caller: Oh, I see.
Barbagelata Aide: Uh-huh.
Caller: Well, uh, maybe you could take some notes or something to give him a message?
Barbagelata Aide: I certainly will.
Caller: Um, I understand that he made some negative reference to Jim Jones and Peoples Temple in a hearing last night?
Barbagelata Aide: Last night?
Barbagelata Aide: Oh?
Caller: And I, you know, felt that if if hes going to be attacking Jim Jones, hed be hes going to be very embarrassed, because Peoples Temple actually supported his ballot proposal, (Pause) and and uh, Jim Jones gave support to the proposal on the radio.
Barbagelata Aide: (Unintelligible could be "Wait a minute"). Peoples Temple supported
Caller: his ballot proposal
Barbagelata Aide: JBs ballot proposal. Yeah?
Caller: and gave it and Jim Jones gave support to uh, his proposal on the radio.
Barbagelata Aide: (Taking notes) Okay?
Caller: and uh, he uh, Mr. Barbagelata mentioned Mr. Tim Stoen, if my information is correct, and Mr. Stoen is not with the DAs office. (Pause)
Barbagelata Aide: What was this regarding? I I left about six last night, so, you know, (laughs) I
Caller: Well, it was information that uh, passed on to me about his comments, so thats why, you know, I men uh, am mentioning these things because some of his information is cor incorrect, for one thing, because they uh He should check the records, cause Mr. Stoen did not marry a minor, which was which Mr. Barbagelata s stated, and thats, you know, quite a, you know, um, error, and uh, another thing is that uh, Reverend Jones was very supportive of Mr. Barbagelata when he was victimized by terrorists.
Barbagelata Aide: Hmm.
Caller: Another thing is that uh, Jim Jones resigned from his position and further declined to give support to the mayor [George Moscone] in fighting um, Mr. Barbagelatas ballot proposal.
Barbagelata Aide: ((Incredulous) He resigned from his commission?
Caller: His po his position, (unintelligible word), I think, as as I understand.
Barbagelata Aide: When was this?
Caller: Uh It must have been just recently, because uh, hes no longer in the position, he as far as I understand.
Barbagelata Aide: Huh.
Caller: We can check into that, if
Barbagelata Aide: Well, Ive seen the
Caller: or hes hes planning to
Barbagelata Aide: the news bulletins come through, and and they said uh, the Reverend Jones has been absent, but it hasnt said anything about, uh, you know, him resigning.
Caller: Apparently, he is planning to resign (short laugh) his position.
Barbagelata Aide: Huh.
Caller: And but he he declined to give su his support to the mayor in fighting Mr. Barbagelatas ballot proposal.
Barbagelata Aide: Declined to gi uh, okay, Ill certainly let the supervisor know
Caller: And uh
Barbagelata Aide: Declined to give his support to mayor.
Caller: And the church, uh, has 9000 members, and theyre theyre not the kind of people I I think he wants to take on. Uh, believe me, I mean, I I personally have been through, you know, in favor of Mr. Barbagelatas proposition, but I I feel very strongly that if hes attacking Jim Jones, hell lose my support, and a lot of other conservative people who appreciate what Jim Jones [has] done to speak out against terrorism on the left, and elements like the Nazis.
Barbagelata Aide: Umm-hmm.
Caller: I know, you know, he may be considered to be left of center, perhaps by some, but hes done more to get anti-social elements off the streets and to rehabilitate drug addicts and militants than an anyone I know.
Barbagelata Aide: Umm-hmm.
Caller: And uh, I dont know if the source that he got some information was uh, Lester Kinsolving, but uh, that gentleman has been voted out of the press corps for accepting payoffs. This was reported in both the Chronicle and Examiner.
Barbagelata Aide: Who was that again?
Caller: Lester Kinsolving.
Barbagelata Aide: Do you know how to spell that?
Caller: (Laughs) Its K-i-n-s-o-l-
Barbagelata Aide: Uh-huh.
Barbagelata Aide: Uh-huh.
Caller: And hes been voted out of the press corps for accepting payoffs. And this was reported in both the Chronicle and Examiner, as I understand.
Barbagelata Aide: Oh. Uh-huh.
Caller: I I just want to say that Im I feel strongly about this. Im not a member of the church, but Im uh visited and Im well familiar with the their programs and uh, I think theyre doing a lot of good.
Barbagelata Aide: Okay.
Caller: So if you could pass that on, Id really appreciate it
Barbagelata Aide: I certainly will. Can I tell him who called?
Caller: Well, just just give the message, please, Id Id appreciate that very much. (Pause) I I
(Two women talk over each other)
Caller: the Bethel AME church, if youd want to state that.
Barbagelata Aide: The Bethel who?
Caller: AME Church.
Barbagelata Aide: AME Church. Okay.
Caller: Thank you very much.
Barbagelata Aide: Certainly.
Balance of Side 1 is blank
Side 2: Begins with several minutes of silence
Part 2: Short conversation between Jones and unknown male.
Sounds of people milling about
Jones: Yeah, the other one (unintelligible) as well as its industrial scheme (unintelligible). Uh, what else? Didnt he tell you whatever the hell it was?
Male: I think something about a hotel or (unintelligible)
Jones: Oh, yes
Part 3: Phone call between receptionist in Ruth Stapletons office and Mike Prokes
Receptionist: Ms. Stapletons office.
Prokes: Yes, my name is Michael Prokes. Im an associate minister to Reverend Jim Jones of Peoples Temple in San Francisco?
Receptionist: Yes, uh-huh.
Prokes: Uh Rosalynn Mrs. [Carter] uh, the First Lady suggested that Reverend Jones and, and uh, Mrs. Stapleton uh, meet. This was some months ago, but uh, at the time Reverend Jones had a conflict in his schedule which had him out of uh, state and uh, he was in South America up until a couple of days ago and hes just returned, and I uh, see where Mrs. Stapleton is going to be in San Francisco tonight, and thought that perhaps, if her schedule allowed it, she would like to uh, meet with Reverend Jones uh, sometime maybe tonight or tomorrow, if shes still in town.
Receptionist: Uh. I have no way of getting in touch with her. She should be calling me, uh, tonight. If not, it will be in the morning. Uh
Prokes: Well, in that case, uh, we could probably just see her uh
Conversation cut off.
Part 4: Ben Bowers, Jim Jones and other talk about radio problems
Male: Testing, one two three. Testing one two three four.
Sounds of people milling about.
Jones: The uh We have a mutual problem, if we dont have a mutual fellowship.
Male: Thats true.
2nd Male: Um. Tell him not to (Pause)
Jones: Tell him what? Ill go appear with what we think (movement of furniture). See how he thinks about it. (Pause) (Movement)
2nd Male: To start with, I think what we were thinking is that we need to take a position that uh, youve been in here supervising this most of the time, because the work is so important to the church, periodically you leave, you you take a meal, youd have to go to the toilet, occasionally youd even go out to to work but you always came in and turned it on, first of all.
3rd Male: Yeah.
1st Male: As far as the uh and uh Theyll theyll check it out and theyll check the power application. If they ask anything about call signs, you know, do we use call signs, you just dont know anything about it. If youre asked, say simply, I dont know a thing about that. Ive done it, I dont know anything about it. Uh, as far as the log books concerned, I think the only approach we can take, and its not a really good one, is you know, I kept one for for quite a while and then, uh
1st Male: Either some kids or something took it here, and I just
Ben: Well, heres the log book.
1st Male: Hmm?
Ben: Here is the log book. If weve been filling it for the last ten days, it would be reasonably accurate.
Woman: The thing is, we cant, because if theyve been monitoring us, it prevents us signing with if they they know what weve been doing.
2nd male: They probably only want to get (unintelligible) in print.
Ben: Thats it. Well, the thing I wanted to say was that or the the approach I thought, because obviously, theyre going to know that, too. Im gonna say uh, well, right, you know, its its, you know, verbatim from day to day to day to day, and Im just going to say, its got, you know, monotonous, and I didnt keep it up the way I should have, but you know, I thought it was, the week it was (unintelligible word) reasonably accurate (unintelligible word). If we can, you know theres more. The other thing I (unintelligible) more of is your starting time and your stopping time. Because they are going to be basic (unintelligible). The log book. To not have a log book is maybe you know, at least have something. It would be, like, gross incompetence.
Another male: If we
Woman: (unintelligible) gross incompetence, because youre a qualified (unintelligible) and not unlocked facility.
Ben: Uh, if its unlocked, then thats my responsibility. I mean, more Im the control operator. Whatever happens, okay, Im responsible for.
Woman: Yeah. (Pause)
Ben: Now, you know, obviously I cant say why I have the sole key to this room, and you know, I dont know, somebody picked the lock or uh I could say it got ripped off at the guy was just extremely skeptical. He said, "Gee, that was just really suspicious, the way you just happened to disappear the minute we knocked on the door, you know."
Unknown male: Yeah, really.
Woman: Well, maybe if you give him the log book and had (conversation overwhelms her)
Jones: (unintelligible as he interrupts) acts like, whats his mood. Was he hostile?
Ben: No, he was just kind of like you know, if the state cop and he pulls you over and you were going 70 and theyre very cheerful and, you know, and uh he said Hes, you know He warmed up, he He said uh I said look, Ive been doing this for a long time and I said, I know Ive been in remiss in a lot you know, in a lot of areas, obviously, because you, you know, called on me. And he said, well, then youre not trying to deny that you (unintelligible) mistakes, and he said, well thats, you know he kind of opened up to that, he said, well thats
Jones: (unintelligible) haul this stuff here, we gotta get in all this stuff right through you, if they the power, (unintelligible) presence whatever, thats all lets say. What what have you have you met this man?
Jones: What what do you Do you know what you cost me, coming back here with this kind of a I dont uh Im really shocked that you would take such a stance. (Pause)
Ben: I just (unintelligible) it right now, but I just kind of got informed, I want to get out of here.
Jones: Well, what is it? Was it (unintelligible, as two people talk over each other)
Ben: (unintelligible) wasnt going over to the mission?
Ben: I wasnt going to go over to the mission. What I want to do is stay here until everybody was more or less gone, and then just not go over.
Jones: (unintelligible) But I wasnt trying to get you in the mission, I was trying to get some days off to get a radio built in the in the headquarters.
Ben: Well. (Pause) I couldnt say, "Well" I couldnt say, "Well, look, Im not going to come, because I dont want to go over to the mission and uh If I have to, Im gonna quit."
Woman: Your ticket was round trip, Ben.
(People talk over each other)
Ben: I just
Jones: Thats it?
Woman: I mean, your ticket was round trip, you werent going over, they keep you there a few days
Jones: When we presented it, did you think you were going to stay?
Ben: I assumed that. I mean, my assumption was, I dont care what you told me, thats what I figured.
Jones: Well, why would you think Ive only got one operator here.
Ben: I dont know. To me, it was lunacy to go over there in the first place, because Al [Touchette] can set it up as well
(Several people talk over each other)
Jones: He cant He couldnt He couldnt do it. He tried to do it.
Woman: Al said he has no idea
Jones: They tore the roof off tore the whole roof off. Holes that are there. He couldnt do it. Thats That was the reason I wanted you to come.
Ben: Well, I couldnt See, he set that radio up over there (furniture moved) beautiful tower. Im not that good at building towers. And thats the main thing, is putting up a big antenna. And that takes, you know, three weeks, a month, two months. You try to dig a six-foot hole, pour concrete, you know, and thats
(Several people talk over each other)
Jones: (unintelligible) Well, that he coulda done he coulda done he coulda done that. But we needed a person well, the main reason we needed some help, I think, to help build it, to give it directionally. He wasnt sure at all about getting the thing in position here
Ben: I I
Jones: But he tried to get it on the roof and just tore the roof up. He had no way to do it on the roof. Two of the holes (unintelligible) holes in it. (Pause) And we uh Boy, for somebody that had (unintelligible) the antenna, I presume you knew more about it than anybody.
Ben: Well thats a (unintelligible phrase) near as I can tell. (unintelligible) gotta be hung up for however long
Woman: You know, they said the only way to get the radio in was if the license op[erator] and our licensed op came with it
Ben: Right, and I
Woman: because when you were going to send it, then Paula [Adams] said, well, its not going to do any good. Unless you came over, we would not be able to get it through Customs.
Ben: I relinquished all that stuff when I turned it over to Paula, though. As far as I know, Im no longer a licensed operator in Guyana.
(Pause. Jones talks too low)
Woman: Uh no, Paula said that she that, see, the radio (furniture moved) around with it.
Ben: Well, they would let the radio through, but it would be hung up in Customs. Like the last time when we (unintelligible) transfer, that time I was licensed. Well, I was there for two weeks and it never got (unintelligible) it was there, I think it was about (unintelligible, as people talk among themselves)
Deep-voiced Man: But I think they got a different relationship with them now, though. I think it might be able to be
Jones: Did you know I was under legal danger coming back here?
Ben: I didnt know youd come back.
Jones: Why? You think Id not risk going to jail to save this movement? (Pause) Had enough with the double whammy, with all the paranoia with the FBI
Ben: I dont know. I dont know what jeopardy I do not know what jeopardy you are in. But I, you know I assumed that, you know you were under jeopardy, thats why you went over there. (Pause)
Jones: Thats the only way I do (unintelligible) radio operator goes out, and all my people stuck back here, are some of them going into jeopardy too. (Pause) I have to make projections based on people. Where do you live?
Ben: Where do I live?
Ben: (Pause) Uh Id rather not say.
Jones: How about 94 (unintelligible) Terrace.
Ben: Thats right.
Jones: What about uh See, thats what Im See, Im uh Now, you make me very nervous. You ought to know that I will require an investigation.
Ben: (unintelligible with Jones speaking) should be nervous, and I dont like the situation, but I cant see coming back
Deep-voiced Man: Not even
(People talking over each other)
Jones: I didnt say I didnt say you couldnt. I have to base my uh, my stances though. Cause were getting down the line of live and die. If you cant depend upon some people that you believe in
Ben: Well, check that on the "live and die." Cause thats true.
Jones: Well, I know. I know that. But (unintelligible word) (Pause) Why did you why did you actually give the ad the address to the
(People talk over each other)
Jones: Didnt you think I had enough intelligence to have that and your Los Angeles and everything about you, in about, what, thirty minutes?
Ben: I you know, if you want to do that, but I
Jones: Well, why wouldnt I do it, Ben? Why wouldnt I do it? If you were (unintelligible) of the movement, why wouldnt we why wouldnt we do it?
Ben: I dont know. Why would you want it?
Jones: Why wouldnt I?
Male: Because you left.
Jones: You know, youre hostile (unintelligible as Ben and Jones talk over each other)
Ben: I know but I dont want to be you know, I dont like to be (unintelligible) followed around, either. (Pause)
Jones: Well, wait
Man: We dont know where youre at.
(People talk over each other, furniture moved.)
Jones: (intense) (unintelligible) something could happen in this room now. You understand? This isnt a matter of whether youre followed around. Some of us are ready to die. Its easy for you to decide to live in fascism, enjoy it, uh, the fruits of it. I dont give a shit if you met with the FCC [Federal Communications Commission] or not. I dont give a shit. Im sick of this. Im sick of people betraying the best friend that ever walked on the fucking earth. Im sick of it. Im just as ready to die as to breathe. So I dont have no question about you (unintelligible) living or dying with us. Im talking about us living or dying. We have to make projections. If theres nobody you can depend upon, then you your course is slightly sli slightly made out for you.
Ben: (unintelligible) difficult situation, and I would like to where (Pause)
Jones: Do you want to talk
Ben: What do you want from me? I mean, thats what I need to know. Is it Is what you want is radio contact? You want a system worked out so you can maintain radio contact.
Ben: Uh Thats a tough (unintelligible word). I dont know what theyre gonna I cant predict the FCC. Now, as far as what you gonna be able to say over there and get away with, I dont know. This is unexpected to me. I didnt expect you to come to the door.
Jones: Well, neither did we, but you are expected (unintelligible). How do you, Ben, enjoy us (unintelligible) you were real you were not involved with material things, you didnt seem. How do you suddenly turn and want to eat from the, the system that has drained the blood of uh, the Chilean (unintelligible, with furniture moved about)
Ben: I dont love the system, but
Jones: Then you ques question my organization, where were going. Are you saying
Ben: I just want (unintelligible). I just have not Its just been a mystery to me for about a year.
Jones: What what has
2nd male: A year?
Jones: What is a mystery? Its supplies to Zaire, or the Union of South Africa, or getting people out of Chile in refugee centers. Now what is What is the mystery? What is the mystery?
Ben: Thats no mystery to me, but I just I I dont know, its just the the way that I dont know.
Prokes: Well, whats different? What whats been changed that could cause you to think that theres a mystery? I mean Why do you say a mystery? (Pause) Weve operated it the the way we always have.
Ben: Well, I guess I just didnt see it the same
Prokes: What? Whats different about it?
Jones: Any organization worth its salt gotta survive and help people. You cant you cant do most of it alone (unintelligible as voice fades). What is it that you makes you be informed?
(Voices too soft for several exchanges)
Ben: Just like going to LA every weekend, that kind of stuff.
(People talk over each other)
Ben: newspapers, and and uh (Pause) you know, crowded and hassle driving all over creation and
Jones: What about what about children that are crowded, as many as 17 in their (unintelligible)
Ben: Thats trie. I get Im not (unintelligible word) you, its (unintelligible), to me, I I dont know.
Jones: Well, you oughta said that. Cause you caused a great deal of risk to me, to me and the organization, bringing back across the border, cause your your statement was that you didnt like for the organization (unintelligible as someone sneezes). Every time a statement like that comes out, it al it always ends up one step one that stepped one step graduated down, till we get into this insidiousness.
Ben: Well, Im not
Jones: Ive fought with such insidiousness, that uh, my hearts broke and my body is pretty well scarred.
Ben: I dont uh, you know, like I havent really talked (unintelligible as someone knocks) to anybody else, I havent talked to anybody else or (unintelligible as people talk to newcomers)
Jones: But still the questions have to be asked. Everybodys told us that Grace [Stoen] told us with tears in her eyes, "What Ive put you through, Ill never hurt you." She said shed never hurt me. But she has. Shes got a court order. She has.
Ben: Well, I can understand your point, because its difficult (unintelligible as voice fades)
Jones: (unintelligible phrase) and win them. But a newspaper our newspaper, to try to unite the left, I would think that that would be at least a conscientious thing one should attempt to do, is to try. It didnt work, but you should try, before you (unintelligible as furniture moved) operational base as a a facility too? Help in Africa is also going to get a facility to get some people clear. Thats what I have been doing, getting things clear for others to be able to get (unintelligible word) political prisoners, not just Peoples Temple. Its fantastically influential on these youngsters, they all get their lives straightened out. Is that Certainly one needs to continue to raise money. We have to raise money in order to do a damn thing. (Pause) So you (unintelligible word) you do anything you could to raise money. (Pause) You cant know the disappointment that I feel with you. You just cant know that. Then I have to make projections from that. Whose snitch (unintelligible phrase)?
Ben: I dont know. I always tell my (unintelligible) When I felt depressed, or really depressed, and this is probably general (tape edit?), there is usually somebody that leaves. You know, that as a rule, but see I didnt leave out of depression, (voice too soft for rest of sentence).
Jones: What what what
Ben: I didnt want to leave now. So, I wasnt leaving out of depression.
Jones and Ben talk over each other.
Ben: When I When I finally decided, you know This is what you were going to do.
Jones: You thought you were trapped into Guyana, you mean.
Jones: (unintelligible phrase) Thats a shame. (Stumbles over words) I think your logic (unintelligible as microphone moved) I think youre logically, no, we couldnt operate here, without an operator here.
Ben: Thats thats what I wouldve thought too, but thats why I couldnt actually
Jones and Ben talk over each other.
Jones: Because I had faith in you because I had faith in you to (unintelligible), set up a (unintelligible word) in headquarters, uh, that would, you know, that would I knew it would be done jo your jobs are done well. And Al seems insecure about (unintelligible phrase, too soft).
Ben: I know hes been doing it for so long, I dont understand why (unintelligible as furniture moved)
Deep-voiced Man: But even even you had to come When we was over there, you had to come turn it, you know, we got the fucker up, but you had to come turn it.
Deep-voiced Man: So it gets the (unintelligible as things moved). We still dont which way to turn the shit.
Ben: Well, its just a matter I can write all I He knows. He has to know whether hes taking it on or not, I mean, I told him this is how (unintelligible word) antenna essentially and turn it the right way. He put that big one up now, though.
Jones: He said there no way to get the antenna in there.
Ben: Pardon me?
Jones: He said theres no way to get the antenna in there. (Pause)
Ben: Well, we can take the antenna over on air freight
Ben: Pardon me?
Jones: How long will that be?
Ben: Ah, itll go over there fast. I dont know how long it takes (unintelligible as things moved)
Woman: You think this, uh, take it into the airlines 48 hours before your departure.
Ben: Right, right. You have to have 48 hours before (unintelligible as voice fades)
Jones: But you know, (unintelligible word), you must have realized that, when youre talking with government people, we anticipated that the government, when we saw this and this (unintelligible word) nice home, (unintelligible word) bedroom, apartment below for different people. We We anticipated that somebody might from their FC their FCC, whatever it is, uh, uh, commu communication control, might ask questions. Al doesnt know an abominable thing to answer question (unintelligible as furniture moved). Paulall try, but she just dont know this business at all, and Al acquiesces. Under pressure, he just seems to He does know, and he does a good job, at least hes knowledgeable on the ham radio, but he he just doesnt have the confidence to talk to anybody. Cause were doing something thats technically all right, but its uh, the zoning say no. We We got a stamp of approval, and we can put the thing up, but we obviously expected somebody might want to come by and see were just out of interest. Just talking about I thought with a job like you have, which is always the death of anyone, its a job that It brings in money, and then you feel youre part of the system. But it hurts, son. It hurts more than you can possibly know. And Ive got to project a long range plan. Id die in the streets. That Thats why I ask you these questions. These questions are hi These questions are harder to me. Youre leaving this organization you chose
Phone rings. General milling.
Jones: I I am surprised you want to pull out of the only only thing that gives meaning in life. Is there some love affair or something? What is it?
Phone rings. General milling. Pause for several seconds.
Jones: Who is?
Woman: For me? Just tell her Ill call her back.
Jones: (unintelligible name: "Marsha"?)
Woman: Ill call her back.
Jones: Thank you. We got to calculate human beings. I cant think of myself as a mutation. If Im a mutation if Im the only one thatll give and suffer and die, (unintelligible word as things moved) then I have to die. If nobody else is going to You said the thing that hurt very much, is that I didnt think you were coming back, so you left.
Ben: Well, it wasnt that. I mean, it wasnt because I didnt think you were coming back that I left. I mean, had you been right here, I woulda left. (Pause) I mean, that that didnt that didnt because I didnt (unintelligible phrase) you were deserting us.
Ben: I didnt think you were deserting us.
Jones: No, Id hardly think so. You ought to have known I left under the most ominous type of threats, but threats that do not now have much meaning, as long as theres solidarity by some people. I built up quite a network. I have quite quite a bit of connections, quite a bit of contacts. I wouldnt be able to find out where you are. I mean, the idea that I shouldnt find out where you are would be (unintelligible as things moved). We need to know what theyre up to. (Deliberate phrase) In view of the past. These people are not shadowed (unintelligible word). Only when they start stuff. Weve never done anything to anybody. Were not a a A true socialist is not a vengeful person. Theyre pragmatic Theyre pragmatists. They face only the one thing, is the survival of all the people who depend upon us for life (unintelligible word), from Zaire to South Africa to Chile, to those precious children that are over there in the middle of that jungle, building whats to me and what you havent seen in some time. I think you might maybe have decided your lifes going to be rather empty, compared to whats happening there. But you youve got to take Every person whos been in that configuration, (unintelligible phrase as things moved). And I would think thatd be logical to you. Because a person said today, theyre with you, they dont want to do any harm, they just want to leave, we dont bother them. We dont probe them. But then two weeks later, they start some action. We have never initiated any action against anybody. Not once. Never once. The actions always been (unintelligible as things moved) You slept too much. If If you listen, you always heard that everything we discussed where somebody did something. (Pause) Now I have to tap your mind (unintelligible phrase), how can a person be a socialist, how can they be a sacrificial, hard worker and then suddenly give it up, and be back into the system? You must know how crushing that is on my my whole my being.
Woman and Jones speak over each other. Pause.
Another male: Any response? (Pause) Any response? (Pause)
Jones: Question, is what he means, that I just asked you. How do you How do you make these adjustments to go back into the system? (Pause) What is it you want out of the system? You said youd
Ben and Jones talk over each other
Ben: Um Im not (Pause)
Jones: I remember everything, I nearly died when I heard it. Thats how much it affected us.
Ben: I dont have any great (unintelligible word)
Jones: Well, why do you what do you want in there then, son? Well, why do you want Did you believe in me
Ben: I Its just that I have I guess I want independence. I guess thats what I want. (Pause)
Jones: Whoevers freed anybody, son? Whoever freed anyone by hedonistic indifference? Who, with anarchy, ever did a damn thing for a soul? I I Like a classic anarchist myself, I hate the system, but I but you cant replace it with anarchism. It takes organization to replace it.
Ben: I guess I
Jones: Where did you see me misuse power? Where do you see it? Where do you see it?
Ben: I didnt say you misuse power.
Jones: Well, then, what do My God, isnt it then significant that youre not identifying with the the blacks, the people thatve been drug out of jail, that crippled little boy accused in this city of shooting police at police, and body been broken and and uh, distorted, uh, Melvin Charles is, is his name, Melvins brother. The police wanted to get him off, or get him off, and the judge who, with a long lecture he sent him over to the Promised Land. But police meet him up the street and said, dont let us see your face again, or somethingll happen to you. Do you feel involved with the pride of freeing people like that? Or (unintelligible first name "Talia"?) Johnson, who was was running around in in clothes, in transvestite with no purpose, and reeking freaking out, head of a whole garden and is as responsible as could be, like a rock of Gibraltar? And just go on down the list. But theres Kenny even Kenny, the most sordid amongst them, a deviate, a child molester, but who made him a child molester? The fuckin white system. It never makes a black person feel his self. (Pause) Where have you been philosophically? You see, I have to have great trust in that special love for you. Where have you been?
Ben: I think uh (Pause) I dont know, Im kind of a nihilist. Whatever that is
Jones: Well, explain.
Ben: Just pessimistic. Like I feel whatever
Jones: Well, I am too, son.
Ben: happens mostly happens purely by accident. But I think if you work very very very very hard, and you happen to get a purely accident that happens your way to really change things. Apart from that, I think that things more or less stay the way they are.
Jones: How did you stay here being a nihilist? Have you been to Cuba lately?
Jones: And you call yourself a nihilist in Cuba?
Ben: Um, I dont know what a nihilist is (unintelligible word). I mean a person who just basically I guess Im just really a pessimist, if you want.
Jones: But but my God, with two out of three babies going to bed hungry, you dont even want to just take those chances? Well take our chances on those people being tortured while were sitting here? (Pause) We cant do that.
Ben: I (Pause)
Jones: Thats all right. Go ahead, have a dialogue, Im rea Im only making projections from you.
Ben: I dont claim to have you know, I dont have perfect empathy (Jones talks over)
Jones: I would I would hope that I could I could I could hope I could hope with all the hope in the world that youd change your mind. But thats not the primary reason Im probing you.
Ben: Okay. Well, thats Yeah. I feel like uh (Pause) Im willing to have a dialogue with you so that you can (Pause) understand me maybe a little bit better, but I dont really feel Im open to make a decision otherwise. I I feel that the most likely thing that make me connect or reconsider or really start working through this (unintelligible word) would be uh, to go out for six months and uh, then just be truly bored. And I think that would make me come back.
Jones: Well, I hope so. Ive never seen anybody that ever happened to you before.
Ben: Well, Im not Im not expecting you to be, you know, happy, basically.
Jones: No, Ive never seen it happen to anybody. For us. I wish I could see some people whod seen the system and come back. But their pride wont let them (unintelligible with movement in room).
Ben: Im not necessarily I (Pause) I I You know, I can see positive role (unintelligible word). Id rather know it. I To me, its premature to talk about anything.
Jones: What do you mean, (unintelligible) at this juncture?
Ben: I mean, I dont (unintelligible word) I mean, there are ways that I can work or help Peoples Temple. Small ways, that might be a little help.
Jones: Well, what kind of thing do you have in mind?
Ben: Well, I dont you know, I dont have anything particular in mind. (unintelligible phrase)
Deep-voiced Man: (unintelligible)
Jones: Well, hes already said he couldnt handle the radio. Didnt Didnt you say that?
Ben: Pardon me?
Jones: Didnt you say you could already handle the radio problem?
Ben: (Laughs) I I dont know whether I can handle the radio problem. It depends on
Jones: You mean
Another male: What works See, were (unintelligible word) If it answers, you gotta listen to us, great, we can have the radio (unintelligible under movement), were not going to do any business over it, were not going to (unintelligible under movement)
Jones: They didnt uh, they didnt seem to be worried about content. Did he say that to you? Did he say it to you?
Ben: To me, its very funny, if the FCC can suddenly come out here and with and investigate on site. That is, you know, not right.
Another male: They had gotten a lot of complaints because of the
Several people speak
Ben: Its smart for them to ascertain that, but I mean basically
Jones: Can you do anything to mask that up there
Ben: (Sighs) If I had the (unintelligible name) manual, I couldnt find the manual (unintelligible word).
Jones: (Under breath) Oh, God. (Normal tone) Heres the thing, son. That they they apparently were here for the the usual diabolical intrigue, but (unintelligible word) letters, and the personal handwritten letter from Mrs. Carter blew their minds, so they got off the substance of the thing and all the other just all they were worried about was the power.
Ben: Well, thats why
Jones: Allegedly. I think I think theyve been after us ever since we championed Unita May Blackwell Wright, when quite likely they were here and not to, to uh, uh tap her, because anybody could do that without being out there with a little black satchel. Probably kill her. So I know the deviousness of the bastards. But they think weve probably got too much of a hold. Thats the only reason the FBI doesnt move in me for certain things. The only reason why the (stumbles over words) printer pushout, they In immigration, they burn up, they want to arrest so badly. But they cant arrest, because theyre afraid of a bunch of angry niggers in the streets. Thats the whole basic thing in a nutshell. And thats why when everybody who goes out, it weakens that thing. Group solidarity is the only thing that can stand up to fascism. Jews Jews who did survive. Elements of socialism in [Adolf] Hitlers Germany did survive. Even to the last. But when you break, you break your solidarity, you have no Uh, you cant So Ill have to make projections based on moves like yours, and I keep seeing these moves, every two, three months, a person thats been at some meeting been a long time since (unintelligible word) your meeting, though. A long time that Ive been (unintelligible word under movement) like this.
Ben: I just burn out. (Pause)
Jones: Well, it always helped me to realize I didnt have the right to burn out. Thats all that I kept me going. I get tired and weary and (unintelligible word), awful and frequently and (unintelligible word) every night and every day. Hostile. Cause Im just exactly like all the rest of you. You keep very clear in my mind, some people wholl Ive never had that opportunity to burn out. And I may burn out, but Im not going to give out. Because thats a terrible feeling, to feel that you let people down. Thats what I felt I woulda done if I had stayed there. Sure, I wouldnt be in jail, and I didnt care about going to jail in the first place. I thought it would be organizationally unsound for me to risk going to jail, because Im still quite influential in this movement. But I I couldnt I didnt Our people would have never understood if I hadnt have come back in these kinds of situations. Even per perhaps some here wouldnt have understood it. They wouldnt understand it. But I had to take the personal risk Id rather take that risk than risk letting anybody down. And even if I let most painful, unless Ive totally miscalculated, (unintelligible word) let somebody down that needs you, trusted you, or believed in you. I dont know what there is in life. Ive tried it all. Never being able to do anything for myself. Glad to go, with everything I own, Ive got my body or mind. And still I know whats out there. You learn vicariously. I dont know what possibly for you to enjoy (unintelligible phrase) lived in the system, hobnobbed with all those assholes in this city. For this cause, you see. Theres nothing there. So whats the difference? Pain is pain. Why not be painfully loyal, rather than painfully dissident?
(Movement of furniture)
Jones: (unintelligible under movement) nihilist. Sitting here as a nihilist, I wonder how many others
(People move, commotion)
Jones: Dont do that, dont do that, dont do that.
Woman: Chaikin [presumably Gene Chaikin]. Chaikin.
Jones: Um, Dees having a little little problem and that was the only reason um
Deep-voiced Man: Dee?
Jones: Dee. Shes having a little problem (unintelligible phrase), weve asked that uh, talk with some people (unintelligible phrase)
Jones: try to explain it, cause I think they need explanations. (Movement) Anyway. So uh (Pause) You dont think theres any way to for the radio to sur to survive. What time is it?
Another male: Quarter to ten.
Jones: I cant survive without communications.
(Movement; people talk over each other)
Jones: mission and have a few things, and we said, well, the people do business, and they said what we said, and they said, we know that. We know that. Uh So they didnt seem to argue at that point on. And God, if hed been monitoring for two weeks, hed heard it all most same kind of codes. So uh
Male: We could not challenge this on the content. In other words, (unintelligible under movement). I was surprised, because I always thought it was one of (unintelligible phrase), they were going to bust us on the content and we wouldve been in deeper trouble. I was shocked that
Jones: He would he wouldve, except theres that letter from Mrs. Carter saying she thanks me for what Im trying to do in Cuba. And they dont know what the hell to think. They may think the whole governments going communist, but thats not what she was really saying. She was really saying, uh, I think its good that you tried to get hospital equipment into Cuba. I was trying to get a commitment from her (unintelligible word), (stumbles over words) she can open certain certain doors in the Caribbean. And that handwritten letter, which we didnt expect to get, was very helpful, from the presidents wife. Its been helpful ever since we got it.
Ben: Well, if we keep our power (unintelligible under movement) train signal, and uh, identify.
Jones: Yeah. What bothers me slightly is this uh, false signal, this false signal.
Man: Worth shifting to valley.
Jones: Shift to the valley?
Man: Use that (unintelligible word) antenna up there.
Woman: They shift to the valley at the same time.
Jones: They do?
(Several people talk)
Prokes: They they went in there, and same time they came in here.
Ben: Well, Im sure they know about it. Thats what (unintelligible under movement). But uh, as far as them listening see, thats what they asked me about, that
Jones: Well, nobodys ever told me this little bit of information.
Ben: No, that thats why I didnt want to Thats I was (unintelligible word) down in the first place, because we got, you know, I mean, you know, probably a thousand ham radio operators right here within our primary signal area, which is about 10 miles. And we got an umbrella area which They can probably hear us in L.A., but uh, if were up in the valley, they the only people who can hear us there are like 20 or 30 miles (Jones talks over him)
Jones: I never heard this. I never heard this. Never once. Well, you can see how vital communications are. We have to have no communi communications, since I had to rush all that that jungle, weve had no communications since the day of the (unintelligible word).
Ben: Did they say not to operate (unintelligible word)?
Several people talk, microphone moved.
Jones: Whats happening?
Ben: Well, I was I kinda I was he never said that to me on the phone. And I was surprised that he didnt call.
Jones: Well, I suspect hes probably that hes probably learned more (unintelligible, as movement recurs)
Ben: I was surprised that they came
Jones: Did you see it? Do you know the letter? Do you know the letter?
Man: No, I havent seen the letter.
Prokes: Ive seen the letter.
Several people talk, microphone moved.
Ben: (Speaks too far away from mike) came to pick it up. And then they send you another slip saying, youve had a second a pink one, that says youve had a second offense, and then if its really bad, and you fail to comply, sometimes when they shake your (unintelligible word)
Jones: If they they wanted to do us in, theyd have arrested you, theyd have arrested everybody on that radio. Of course, we know that. Im not doubting, youve made your (unintelligible word). They wont arrest us. (Pause) But that letter, even as innocuous as it is, makes it makes for nervousness.
Prokes: Especially when it starts out, "Dear Jim." He could have easily said, "Dear Reverend Jones." But, looks like theres a close personal friendship there.
Jones: Let me see it again, so I can know what were talking about (voice fades)
Man: So were going to tell them we dont have any long (unintelligible word) violation?
People talk over each other
Man: (unintelligible phrase) I I had throwed it up the (unintelligible word) last two weeks, because then its Since theyve been monitoring (unintelligible phrase) Basically, wed have we need to have (unintelligible word) at 5:30 and 2:30.
Movements. People talk over each other
Jones: What are you saying? How we would do it without lying, if theyre monitoring? Its (unintelligible word) we can say. If they really monitor us, well I dont want to put you in jeopardy, youre the one thats in jeopardy (voice fades).
Ben: You know, I was I dont intend to I think its foolishness to say, well this is the log, and its totally accurate. You know, I just say, well, I went back over the over the (voice fades), but I just havent kept it up, like I should have
Jones: Thats why I question why we shouldnt lose it. It was my idea to lose it. But you say not to. And I trust your judgment. Things in writing can damage you. What you put down there becomes if these people turn and change their mind and want to go after us, which Im afraid I Im afraid thats down the road, undoubtedly, but I dont know the way it is right now, because of their attitude, (unintelligible word) attitude. So that doesnt indicate to me that they want to they got the legal, uh, criminal sanction against us. They even said, if you were here, and uh as I understood it, now if the people correct me if Im wrong, that that you were here and the power was all right, they wouldnt even cite you, whatever that means, what "cite" means, that just means thats thats a civil way thats a civil way, thats all.
Man: There are sanctions against them, but I dont I mean, I dont know how they do it with all the citations.
Ben: The sanctions for a false entry are more severe than making none at all. I mean, from a technical (unintelligible under movement).
Jones: Anything that you put in writing is just evidence. Its just right there for them. If thats accurate. (Pause) Then we always have to deal with the paranoid possibility that theyre just playing with us, you know. They want to get more information from us.
Woman: Whatd they say when you talked to Ruth?
Man: They said uh
Another man: What happened was that Ben uh how come it said we couldnt understand it. There you were, and we were listening. You know, we heard your signal, you knocked on the door, and all of a sudden, the signal disappeared, and they said you just left. It made us awful suspicious, Ben.
Ben: I said, well I was uh I said it was because (unintelligible sentence about being sick) I always came to back on welfare.
Jones: Is that consistent with what you said about him, that he was sick?
Ben: No, they said I told them, I said, that I had, you know, I would just leave something, because (unintelligible under movement), but actually, I thought it was different, so maybe not so bad.
Another Woman: I told them that you got (voice fades to softness)
Jones: Well, I hope your nihilism itd be interesting if your nihilism and my socialism put us in the same cell. (Laughs) I was laughing, but you think about it, you may you may get a chance enough to be bored. Christ, I dont give a shit anymore.
Man: This cite basically (unintelligible under movement) just to test his will. And hell go back, and make a report to this these two guys that were there before that (unintelligible under movement)
Jones: (unintelligible under movement) whats going to happen then.
Man: (unintelligible) If the signals clear, then theyll probably say, write us a letter, and you know, with the citation is what Im saying, youre given a warning. But theyre going to be nice, you know, that youve been your signals unclear, and if you got two weeks to get your signal straightened out, and then uh See, there may be something wrong Theyre ah To me, there must be something wrong with it, I I dont know. Im anxious to see if this guy comes up with anything with his equipment.
Woman: Something wrong with the what?
Man: With the signal, yeah.
Man: He said it was uh, broadcasting (voice fades)
Woman: Ten K
Man: Ten KCs? Well, its too bad. Thats not the way its supposed to do, and thats certainly one reason (unintelligible phrase)
People talk over each other
Man: Cause thats what that other guy wrote two weeks ago, was that we were in (unintelligible as voice fades)
Woman: He said the antenna Because of the antenna had some areas that were (unintelligible word)
Prokes: He said it wasnt the best installation he had seen.
Ben: He said it wasnt?
People talk over each other
Ben: Well maybe I dont know. Well just have to see.
Woman: (unintelligible as she breaks in) do a a log book there, you know.
People talk over each other
Prokes: It just disappeared, you know. Kids running in and out. Could have left the door open.
Ben: Yeah, I could say I
People talk over each other.
Jones: They could use that at some other time. Even though now, they see our power, they do not want to. Nine months later I dont know what the statute is for this. Probably, what, two, three years?
Man: Three years.
Jones: So later, theyve got something in writing. Thats why I dont want for you people to keep things in writing. The argument should be here that weve been praised by the mayor, the Senators, what were doing is getting troubled people off the streets, and its perfectly fantastic, we got the literature here, read this and (unintelligible phrase), say, we have to have communications, but but we were told by different officials, and we have (unintelligible phrase), it wont matter, theyre not that strict about it in the FCC, here the people can talk on the on the thing, theres not that much of a problem. I mean there isnt any problem. Id put it that way. And so, we didnt all we were concerned about was getting things non-profit, obviously, as a church we we things that needed, medical supplies, we stopped gastroenteritis, I hope youre listening, in that whole area, which we have. Thats a fact, and we document it. By our supplies and equipment and some natural remedies. Theres no more kids dying in our area of gastroenteritis. So the thing the human thing not to try to talk savvy to you, being highly sophisticated. Id just make that kind of approach. (Pause) When are they When Will you notify when theyre coming in?
Man: Yeah, is there something wrong with it?
(Reply too soft)
Jones: They know who (unintelligible word) rapping at the door.
Man: He said uh, boy, that place is like Fort Knox. He said as I understand it, its been tried to be bur its been burned down a couple of times.
Jones: He said you said that?
Man: I didnt say it. You did.
Woman: You told him that when they came here.
Man: You told him that he said, oh, you got a lot of security, and somebody said, well, you know, weve had the church burn down, and so (unintelligible word) concerns us.
Man: They may monitor and not tape, they may be so inefficient.
Jones: Well, lets hope thats been the case. Whats bothering me is these call signals. Huh? What bothers me is the call signals, that we they they didnt mention that to you either, did they?
Man: (unintelligible phrase) monitoring for two weeks, and for a while there, you werent even called for that. Or you werent identifying, or something.
Jones: So theyve missed
Prokes: They may have missed
Jones: (unintelligible word) of the paranormal again.
Prokes: Its very possible.
Ben: Well, theyre in a hard place
People talk over each other
Jones: If they can miss If they could miss If they could miss those call signals, theyd really have to Somethings working with us at least for a little while.
Woman: Maybe it says here
Jones: Cause those call signals are in choke, choke, choke We just choke them with those call signals. Well, I already I already stopped (unintelligible word), four days before they come in. (Pause) Cause Tim Stoen thought we ought to give em a call signal. He thought a call signal there, then go along without anything. (unintelligible sentence)
Prokes: No, that doesnt make sense, really.
Jones: (same unintelligible) So I already
Ben: Yeah, if they cant if youre looking If you figure theyre not going to come after you for three months, then thats fine. Uh, obviously, they dont operate that way. (Pause) Its just (unintelligible phrase).
Jones: I wish I had known about the umbrella.
Jones: I wish I had known about the umbrella. In Los Angeles, youd be in the same position, I suppose.
Ben: Right. Theyd be able to hear you like 20 20 miles
Man: You were saying they could hear us, they were picking us up in Washington.
Ben: Yes, so you get an umbrella effect to like It can be like 20, maybe 100 miles After you go out 20 miles and after you and then after like 100 miles out, you get dead air, and then after that, the signal starts to come back down (unintelligible under movement). They probably come They probably come like gangbusters then. (unintelligible phrase) They said in Washington
People talk over each other
Woman: Did you see anything else that they might bring up that we havent talked about, or should think about?
Ben: Uh I dont know. Im not up on the regulations they have See, were not licensed at this location. (unintelligible phrase) secondary primary location is up in Redwood Valley, but I just moved down here, and uh, I havent got around to applying for a primary station location down here, because Im not sure (unintelligible phrase under movement)
Jones: Well, wha whatd you have in mind (unintelligible phrase)
Ben: Thats what I was going to say. Because they dont have to I dont have to uh If this is a secondary station location, I dont have to give them any written notice of it. And I dont have to get a separate call sign for it (unintelligible under movement), so I can still still primary station location in Redwood Valley, and this is secondary location.
People talk over each other.
Jones: Well, I think you better show them that too. You can talk afterwards in there, because Id like to have more dialogue with you to get my bearings, me when Im back here, know to what Im doing here. (Pause) Things are happening over there.
End of tape
Back to the Top