{"id":108346,"date":"2021-02-08T13:28:17","date_gmt":"2021-02-08T21:28:17","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=108346"},"modified":"2021-02-08T17:42:48","modified_gmt":"2021-02-09T01:42:48","slug":"q583-transcript","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=108346","title":{"rendered":"Q583 Transcript"},"content":{"rendered":"

If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n

To return to the Tape Index, click here.<\/a>
\nTo read the Tape Summary, click here<\/a>. Listen to MP3 (Pt. 1<\/a>,\u00a0Pt. 2<\/a>).<\/p>\n

(<\/em>This tape was transcribed by <\/em>Nicole Bissett<\/em>. The\u00a0editors gratefully acknowledge her invaluable assistance<\/em>.)<\/em><\/p>\n

Mike Prokes<\/strong>: They uh\u2013 They said we now have Stephan\u2019s [Stephan Jones] friend\u2019s mother and her companion, and we now have their son and A.J. Johnson\u2019s daughter with us. Uh, they spent some time among others and with others who are working with us, going out this afternoon with the list we were given last night. The interviews have been very favorable. People have been positive and responsive. If we\u2019re going to expand the program with their consent, uh, obtain materials\u2013 Just reading from the transcript, uh\u2013 Let\u2019s see\u2013 You know, notations to further authenticate the situation. We feel these materials can be used in a number of ways. First of all, they can be used by publication. Secondly, they can be used on the radio, if required. And thirdly, they can be used if the issue were handled more formally \u2013 if you follow me \u2013 and along lines that the office suggested in the last few paragraphs\u2013 paragraphs that we were given this morning. Now I\u2019m suggesting is simply that you get this material and pass it on so it can be analyzed, so next time we talk, we can speak of it in detail. Uh\u2013 Let\u2019s see \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Talkin\u2019 \u2018bout healings?<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Pardon?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Talkin\u2019 \u2018bout healings?<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> All right. How\u2013how are they doing that? They gonna send (unintelligible word) to us.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Uh, well, I\u2013 I thought he was referring to u\u2013 utilization there<\/em>.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I know<\/em>, but uh, which (unintelligible word)\u2013 which ones talkin\u2019 \u2018bout, we\u2019d like to see<\/em> them more (too soft) analyze them (unintelligible word)\u2013<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Uh-huh. Uh, I guess we\u2019ve\u2013 I don\u2019t know what he was thinking.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible name) I talked to your teacher. I don\u2019t know what the hell you mean by that stuff uh, between\u2013 all of you.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Okay. Uh, says he that uh, we feel we\u2019re going to have between thirty and forty fairly good testimonies available. And the question is how best we can use them. Uh, he says uh\u2013 (Pause) We have people saying, I don\u2019t care what the newspaper says, I was there and I saw what happened, and they\u2019re spreading the word about it, too. Uh\u2013 It almost looks like the thing is shaping up to take sides. These are just common people, but I think that with a sufficient workforce down here, we could put up a pretty strong showing. Uh\u2013 For example, we could decide\u2013 we\u2013 we could decide to run every night for five minutes or something on the radio. One testimony of a healing at that service, and run a different testimony every night. He\u2019s just suggesting that.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Uh\u2013 Let\u2019s see\u2013 That\u2019s pretty much all. (Pause) One thing he did mention, uh\u2013 Said let me give you some information on a point that I brought out in the uh, notes that Maria [Katsaris] gave. Uh\u2013 The position I took is that people from our mission were, uh, called out and healed. But the issue was whether, when asked, \u2018specially Mr. Johnson, they denied knowing you. The claim was that they publicly denied knowing you. And that is what I denied.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> That\u2019s right, that\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Okay. All right. (Long pause)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. (Pause}<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: The information that uh\u2013 that you gave this afternoon, now, that was to go in the ad? It says if the newspaper doesn\u2019t question us about it\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> If the newspaper doesn\u2019t question\u2013<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Then it\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> \u2013 the way\u2013 the way it is, the way things are, the way things are, you leave<\/em> them that way. Then go into detail. But if the new\u2013 newspaper requires more detail, you give<\/em> details. You know, like, uh, such as you were just discussing, that uh, (unintelligible, could be \u201cno one\u201d) was called out and healed. I didn\u2019t want that in the\u2013 to go in the newspaper unless we had to.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Well, it says put it in the ad. Makes sense.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> If necessary<\/em>, yes. (Pause) Same thing. (unintelligible word) If necessary. Only if necessary. Don\u2019t pay to give nothin\u2019 to nobody. But I\u2013 You weren\u2019t there, so I\u2013 It\u2019s the best I can do.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: (sighs) Okay.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible sentence) Somebody ought to be assigned in these crucial times to be at hand with a tape-recorder for me, uh, to hook me up, like Maria uh, or uh\u2013 You know, Maria, Jean Brown, [Jim] Randolph, I don\u2019t want Maria to do all of this. I don\u2019t want her to know<\/em> all of it. Somebody could uh\u2013 Somebody could (unintelligible word) that phone. Karen [Layton] or something like that. Somebody<\/em>.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Uh\u2013 Well, we have a month. Uh, I am covering the office, and Randolph and Jean Brown are in the other office.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Well, I know, but during this afternoon, there was nobody there. I had to talk to Maria.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Oh, yeah. See.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible word) little available. We got Joe Brown, and uh, Beam and uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Oh, that\u2019s right, that\u2019s right. You\u2019re right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> So, I\u2019ve been trying \u2018cause\u2013 Leave it. \u2018Cause I was going out tonight. I had to\u2013 I had to leave it.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: (sighs) Okay. (Pause) Karen wants to know what she should do. (Pause) Uh, that is, she needs to know if she should have her clothes brought down.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> She should. (unintelligible sentence)<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Uh \u2013 Jeff Carey\u2019s dad wants to know where he is, wants his address. He\u2019s at the Hilton in SF, and he called here. (Pause) He\u2019s stay\u2013 He\u2019s going to the University of Guam, I guess.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> He tea\u2013 He teaches there. He\u2019s formerly of the CIA, uh, we know about him, what about him. They haven\u2019t told him where he\u2019s at, I hope.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: No. Uh-uh. (Pause) Should we uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Say we\u2019re on an agricultural mission to South America. We\u2019ll have have him write uh\u2013 When he calls us, we\u2019ll have him write. We don\u2019t have the exact address now, but he\u2019ll uh\u2013 (Pause) He\u2019ll write. (Pause) Over the holidays, he went. (unintelligible sentence) Don\u2019t say he\u2019s been gone a long time or anything. Just say we\u2019ll get\u2013 get his address, and we\u2019ll have him write. We\u2019ll have him write you. Doesn\u2019t know it. Say the person didn\u2019t\u2013 Whoever took the call, didn\u2019t know\u2013 didn\u2019t know him. So somebody else can get ahold of him, collect, and say that you\u2019ll\u2013 (Pause) There was a work project over the holidays or something. (Pause) Okay.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Yeah. Let\u2019s see. I think that\u2019s all I have.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Do you have anymore (stumbles over words) about\u2013 about 40 good healings. Are there any of the\u2013 (clears throat) Any other input uh, from the government or anything that doesn\u2019t know where we\u2019re at still?<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: I don\u2019t think so. I don\u2019t think it\u2013 I think\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Who all was there and heard the call, the conversation?<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Uh\u2013 (Pause) Evidently, the ones that uh, that I mentioned, uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Well, now, who all was down there at your end and heard the conversation?<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: \u00a0Oh, I see. (Pause) Uh, with Jean, uh, (Pause) \u2013 let\u2019s see \u2013 Randolph. He would have been the only other one. He didn\u2019t really hear it.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> You the one that heard it?<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Yeah. (Pause) He\u2013 he heard it after the call.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> But always have somebody monitoring these calls. \u2018Cause I think that there\u2019s one area we\u2019re vague<\/em> on there. I don\u2019t know what\u2013 We\u2013 I\u2013 You know, I don\u2019t know what they mean. That\u2019s always what you try and do with people. Because it\u2019s difficult for only one person to pick up on everything that comes across. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Yeah. (Pause) See, they were\u2013 now I figured it\u2013 that was around six \u2013 Yeah, they were at home. They could\u2019ve been here. We should\u2019ve had them here. (Pause) They\u2019ll be calling again at nine tomorrow morning.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Well. How long did you talk? Not too long?<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: No, not very long.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> That\u2019s good. Don\u2019t make it too long.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Okay.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> But you better get somebody to analyze that thing tonight with you, the tape. Better let [Tim] Stoen hear it and get some ana\u2013 analysis on it, to know what the hell they\u2019re talking about.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Okay.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> We can\u2019t help them to analyze their healings uh, there<\/em>, you know, we\u2019re just not able to do it. We\u2019ll have to leave it up to them<\/em> or send somebody down<\/em>, or whatever they want.\u00a0 I don\u2019t, uh\u2013 they\u2013 they seem to be calling (unintelligible word), I don\u2019t know what they mean.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Um, well, they\u2013 they\u2013 there\u2019s\u2013 Uh, he\u2019s speaking in terms of, you know, what we should do with these healings, like, or uh, you know, what\u2013 how\u2013 how we should uh, convey it over there. What\u2013 what means should we use. What of the three means that he suggest that\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Well, I think on the radio is a good idea, but I wouldn\u2019t put\u2013 I\u2019d tell him, I wouldn\u2019t put an address\u2013 uh, uh, in the first. Don\u2019t have to, (several unintelligible words) follow up, they gotta know exactly what they\u2019re talking about. Just gotta know exactly with these healings what they\u2019re talking about. (Pause) Somebody out of a wheelchair, they were in a wheelchair, and you got testimony they were in a wheelchair. Now, this is what I\u2019m saying. (Pause) You know legally what he\u2019s up to, but uh\u2013 I can get such-and-such a name\u2013 (Pause) such a name, they won\u2019t make too much of (unintelligible word) addresses. (Pause) Once they get into that ballgame, you know, that they\u2013 people can just hound you to death. They can go to the people and\u2013 (unintelligible word) underestimate (several unintelligible words) \u2018cause people stand up under pressure, if we\u2019re under real attack over there. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Uh\u2013 uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> And it should be made clear that I had not seen<\/em> the man that\u2013 that then\u2013 that I called out in Mission (unintelligible word) I mean that I\u2013 that I did save the Sabbatarian minister who worked with<\/em> us at the Mission. (Pause) And I wasn\u2019t too familiar\u2013 really wasn\u2019t too familiar, with what was wrong with his\u2013 with his knee. (Pause) We better come up with some June (unintelligible word) factor, and though\u2013 even though we don\u2019t even recognize that woman. You got what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Uh, no.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> They are coming up with some June name over there, and we don\u2019t even recognize that name.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Oh, I see.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> We don\u2019t recognize\u2013<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Jew\u2013 Jew name?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (Emphatic) June.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: June.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> June. June, like June and July.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> My damndable hoarse voice. (Pause) Unless she\u2019s already done so, then just say that she was (Pause) like you said, we better stick with A.J. [Archie Ijames] and one other they call. (Sighs) I don\u2019t think there should be a lot of people from the Mission. (Pause) I think there\u2019re only two people from the Mission healed. That\u2019s all they should say. (Pause) Said even the people in the Mission don\u2019t discuss what\u2019s wrong with them, with the\u2013 the pastor. They just go by faith, they don\u2019t\u2013 they been away, they\u2019ve been separated from the pastor, they don\u2019t\u2013 they don\u2019t tell him why they\u2019re ill or how they got ill. Very few have been ill over there. (Pause) You know what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> But there was no semblance of acting like he didn\u2019t know them. I wouldn\u2019t name any more than Ijames.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: In what regard.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> And they got healed that we<\/em> that were pestering the hell out of him. (Pause) \u2018Cause that\u2019s who I would name officially. I would say there were dozens<\/em> called out at the door<\/em>, and dozens<\/em>\u2013 you know, do\u2013 just dozens, scores<\/em> called out, and they healed at the doors. Healed in the audience. Called out, at the doors and in the audience. Never even met before by the pastor. Didn\u2019t know them from Adam or Eve. (Pause) The newspaper\u2019s not gonna change some people\u2019s minds, and these lines that form? That\u2019s fine, it\u2019s fine, if we can uh\u2013 how much latitude we have to go with church, I wouldn\u2019t have had to put all that humility in there about Christ, if they thought we had latitude<\/em>. (Pause) All right\u2013 And once you admit you made mistakes, it\u2019s hard, you know, on the co\u2013 comeback. (Pause) (several unintelligible words) forced to build a church that come up with this Christ-is-all business. (Whispers) My God. (Pause) We might just say that we were\u2013 that when our young people were told uh, that uh, we had uh\u2013 young people were told, (unintelligible word) were told, (short laugh), over that businessman, that minister, that uh, we were\u2013 we shouldn\u2019t promote our own personal beliefs about Jesus Christ, our own personal beliefs about Christ, as personal savior, at first<\/em>, so as to give members of other<\/em> world religions who were, they thought, present in great numbers, timed to see our good work. That\u2019s how the testimonies end up, the young people didn\u2019t know what to say other than to mention the one that God had worked through, the bishop, and they give honor to whom honor was due. (Pause) Like the scripture says, to give honor to whom honor was due. They wanted to speak of Christ, and they were badly advised. The pastor wasn\u2019t in the service to guide<\/em> them. He never uses titles, and that\u2019s good, (several unintelligible words), that but to say I was disturbed with the advertisement in the great go\u2013 in the extensive way that I did. They could say he\u2013 I didn\u2019t like<\/em> the advertisement, the the advertisement was again made up by people who were not members of our church. We don\u2019t advertise in the States, and even in a newspaper that one of our church members owned, we don\u2019t even advertise our healing services. (Pause) The healing aspect of our work, I\u2019d put it. We don\u2019t advertise the healings\u2013 healing aspect of our work. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: This information will\u2013 how will it be used?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Hmm?<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: How will this information be used?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> That has already been given to them, that Stoen did what he did. He\u2019s been\u2013 He\u2019s given it to them much more extensively.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Yeah, I recognized that\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> But it should be modified, like I\u2019m now giving it to you<\/em>, if we don\u2019t have to. Because once you start eating crow, and admitting you\u2019re wrong, there\u2019ll no\u2013 there\u2019ll be no end to this.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I think the way I\u2019m handling this now to you, if you\u2019ve got all of it. Did you get all of this?<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> That uh, that could be done without showing we\u2019re totally assholes.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: This\u2019ll go in the ad, or just\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> The ad and\u2013 or the release. It\u2019s probably too late. They probably already got the damn news release so\u2013 change another time. We keep changing the sucker, they\u2019ll wonder whether we\u2019ve lost our minds or not. But that shows that at least they\u2019re open to make decisions down there. When we say, well, they reviewed what they have, and maybe like to change it a little bit more and\u2013<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Well, I\u2019ll have it ready for them, just in case.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I\u2019d give it to them.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Okay.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Tell them that uh\u2013 that aspect, that we got support and if the government doesn\u2019t seem to care about this thing, and it looks like it\u2019s gonna die down, if we make a mild apologies to why, that we would\u2013 that\u2013 you can say\u2013 say the pastor believes Christ is all, something of that\u2013 that sort. Oh, I don\u2019t know, I didn\u2019t\u2013 uh, eating crow won\u2019t be all that bad, but just say, not to elaborate and elaborate and elaborate, is (unintelligible word) I have any work<\/em> to do there (unintelligible word) if I have to go to any people. My personal opinion is we\u2013 we fix it ourselves to grow\u2013 or weren\u2019t growing when we said there\u2019ll be no more healing services. But (unintelligible name) thought it was a must to say that.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Who\u2013 That was his idea?<\/p>\n

Jones<\/strong>: Hmm?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/strong> That was Gene\u2019s [Eugene Chaikin] idea?<\/p>\n

Jones<\/strong>: It was in something I read.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/strong> Did that go out?<\/p>\n

Jones<\/strong>: Stoen. I don\u2019t know whether it\u2019s gone out yet now, but it was in something I read.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Well, uh, do you want me to kill it if it hasn\u2019t gone?<\/p>\n

Jones<\/strong>: Well, that may be that we have to, you know, to keep the thing alive to any degree. But if they can kill<\/em> it without an absolute (unintelligible word) we\u2019re neber going to have a healing service, they should. \u2018Cause it may be necessary, to get this flak<\/em> down. (clears throat)<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: To say that? Is that what you\u2019re saying?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> That we anticipate no\u2013 uh, no\u2013 uh, no further healing services.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Okay.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> And anything short<\/em> of it, you know. (Pause) (unintelligible word) they was in this first news release that he read to me. But it may not be written down yet. It may not be released yet. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: If it isn\u2019t, uh\u2013 should I\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> It was just like I said it, we anticipate having no\u2013<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Okay.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> \u2013further healing services. We are\u2013\u00a0Uh, we\u2019re not thinking about healing services. We are interested in building an agricultural mission. Something that leaves a loophole. Leave them out. It\u2019s terrible to take away from these people\u2019s hopes. All those healings that he\u2019s reporting. And they certainly would have pastoral care that they don\u2019t have. We share and give them equally, and all of our members equally. They don\u2019t\u2013 they don\u2019t get out, I don\u2018t get nobody to lead the (unintelligible word) the shepherd ought to leave. I don\u2019t want<\/em> to lead them, but I feel a moral duty, as it were, over all the situation. (Pause) (Static on the line) You call that crack on your phone.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Uh, they\u2019ve been having problems with it.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I see. Okay, I guess, talk to Stoen about what I just said now.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Okay.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> All these healings come in, and see if that\u2013 if it was necessary to arbitrarily say there\u2019ll be no more healing services. He may feel it is, and Chaikin may feel it is, and if that\u2019s the way it is, that\u2013 that\u2019s it. There\u2019s just no more healing<\/em> service, once you say it. But you can say it sho\u2013 uh, shorter than Chaikin said it without just saying absolutely there is<\/em> no more, why, if you know some (Pause) way of leaving it open<\/em>, leaving an option open. But they may not be able to. (Pause) Maybe the flak\u2019s so great that uh, they would just have to be uh\u2013 those ministers had to be assured that we won\u2019t start a church. That\u2019s why I\u2019m not interested in the place, the future in the\u2013 in the (several unintelligible words). I\u2019m not interested in such a damn climate where the government won\u2019t put these jealous ass church people where they belong. You can say that this is a very great consternation to our board of trustees. When you\u2019re talking to them \u2013 and tell Stoen I think they ought to \u2013 that they could say that, uh, they have a\u2013 there\u2019s very grave consternation that uh\u2013 that here, and we are completely loyal to the uh\u2013 their programs and their administration. Uh, be careful about saying loyal to political parties and that sort of thing. But completely loyal, and go around in\u2013 interpreting, have to constantly defend<\/em> the country, its worthy leadership, so why we can\u2019t\u2013 we don\u2019t want them to identify with our church or anything like that, but why they can\u2019t give us sumport\u2013 support, when we\u2013 we had meetings which would further strengthen their goals. We wanted to work with<\/em> the people and give the fullest support to the country. I\u2019m avoiding the word \u201cgovernment,\u201d as you can see. But you may have to say that. But what\u2019s the attorneys\u2019 opinion of how much<\/em> to say. You gotta\u2013 the government or the\u2013 the leadership, or your\u2013 they\u2019re your governments. Gold. So we could be of service to you in that area. And then to be attacked. The government\u2019s paper is a very hard thing, and we understand. Hard for us<\/em> to understand. The trustees (unintelligible word) it\u2013 found very hard to understand.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Uh, would this go in the release if it\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no<\/em>. Never. This goes to the people in government, their chance to talk to\u2013 but they gotta say it, not with Gene. Gene\u2019s too curt<\/em>. You have somebody there that\u2019s got a humbler tone, uh, because the idea of dismay. Say\u2013 the government, they said to us there, the government doesn\u2019t need our help. And that\u2013 (unintelligible word) we thought the government always<\/em> needed the help of the people. Particularly when we have so many people criticizing<\/em> it, and we\u2019ve had to defend<\/em> it. We always know that good people are often<\/em> in need of defense. Uh, good people are always<\/em> in a\u2013 in need of support. \u2018Cause anyone that does good, you\u2019re gonna be criticized<\/em>. But we\u2013 we\u2019re doing what we felt we uh, had to do<\/em>. Bring Guyanese into our program, let\u2019s uh\u2013\u00ad let\u2019s\u2013 let\u2019s open our program to Guyanese, and also give them the benefit of the love. We may be talking to dumb Christian writers in the government, so they have to be careful how they do that. The love of God that\u2019s healed and helped so many of us. And the law said Guyanese had to be involved in the program, so that\u2019s what we were trying to do. The law, you know, not corporation. We were trying to involve Guyanese. (Pause) Say, we\u2019ve\u2013 we\u2019ve told you our loyalty, we were willing to put it on a polygraph test. Have to be careful about this thing, being loyal to uh, a foreign government, it\u2019s\u2013 even though it is supported by the United States, which we have (unintelligible word). Don\u2019t ask how we put that across. But I don\u2019t think they should leave that die, although they\u2013 when they said it, uh, Chaikin probably said it in such a way, though when I said it, they seem to have been respect\u2013 respect that point of view. But when Chaikin said it, he was put in his place, but, you know, our Chaikin\u2013 Stoen said he has a way.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Um-hmm.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> People don\u2019t\u2013 you humbly<\/em> bring that kind of stuff in. Don\u2019t just say, well, we have to support you la-de-la-dah. You know. Anybody\u2019s going to be defensive<\/em> when you tell them a thing like that. He should not see any government officials without Paula [Adams] present. (Pause) Although they may be a bunch of narcissistic fools that don\u2019t realize how shaky their popular support is. I don\u2019t know. Obviously, they are not as wise as we are. (Pause) Now, we don\u2019t understand about being attacked in the government papers, should never be mentioned though, publicly. You know, that it should be like [Gavin] Kennard or Dr. [Ptolemy] Reid, if we get to him. (Pause) That we thought the one thing in the world we could do<\/em> for this great country, that\u2019s\u2013 you know, government, if you have to say it, is that to bring hundreds<\/em> of people that would be loyal<\/em> to you, through thick and thin, into<\/em> your country. (Pause) \u2018Cause you can see how loyal we are to each other and loyal to our own church leader might be threatening, and we give our loyalty when people are kind to us, as you\u2019ve been to us, to entrust land to us, we never<\/em>\u2013 our loyalty never<\/em> changes. (Pause) We don\u2019t expect you to bow to every one of our little needs, our loyalty\u2019s not\u2013 our\u2013 our loyalty\u2019s not based on you bowing to every one of our needs. You\u2019ve already gotten our loyalty. It would have (unintelligible word), it would have kept it. You never heard a person\u2013 We haven\u2019t upheld you, we\u2019re willing, as we said, to take a polygraph test. We are\u00ad\u2013 We have\u2013 We have supported you to the highest degree. But some people just seem to be nitpicking<\/em> all the time, telling terrible<\/em> stories that are not true about the government. Say we run into it, not in the port, not in the port where we\u2019re at, but we run into it out\u2013 in the cities something terribly<\/em>. As I said to them, we didn\u2019t\u2013 and there very little of it in the port. (Pause) But in the cities, we have run into an enormous amount, in the meetings, we had to interpret the whole thing started, because we\u2013 they called us\u2013 that one uh, reporter called us apologist for the government.<\/p>\n

End of side 1<\/strong><\/p>\n

Side 2<\/strong><\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Another one of [Forbes] Burnham\u2019s preacher apologist, or something like that. (several unintelligible words) (Pause) Okay, I don\u2019t know. (unintelligible word) Need to inflict the situation. If we can\u2019t get backing uh, of people, be like we back our government here, we back\u2013 don\u2019t\u2013 don\u2019t uh, (unintelligible word) our loyalty to people. Back our own government. We don\u2019t say that to them. (Pause) It\u2019s obvious, I think, that we do.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Okay.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> We want this whole nation (unintelligible word), we know that they\u2019ve been good to us, we\u2019ve always been loyal to them. From the congressman to the simplest little businessperson. (Pause) And I think that\u2019s\u2013 But check this out with Stoen. And he should\u2013 there should be more people on a phone call, than just uh, you and Randolph and Karen could be there.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Karen is, you know, in San Francisco.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> What if she asks me if she needs things then? She got her things ready?<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: No. She was\u2013 would have Christine [Lucientes] bring them down.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Well, then, have Christine do that.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Christine can be involved in it. Christine knows everything.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Okay.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (several unintelligible words) impression, I don\u2019t\u2013 I think she\u2019s sometimes slow on the take, when it comes to decision (unintelligible word), you can say something to her right in the middle of a goddamn serious conversation, she blows her stack. That\u2019s the only reason I<\/em> didn\u2019t let her in on it.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: What about uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> \u2018Cause she\u2019s not to talk to anybody about Jeff, she\u2019s got a little gossip tendency, talk to Patricia [Patty Cartmell] and others on my staff. Now you can say I don\u2019t want to offend anyone. Nothing<\/em> is said to any other member of my staff until it\u2013 I clear it. I\u2019m trying to keep this problem isolated from everybody.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: June [Crym] has helped\u2013 yesterday helped Tim in some of the transcribing. What\u2013 What about involving her in\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Who?<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: \u00a0June.<\/p>\n

Sound of phone receiver picked up and dialed<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: I\u2019m on the phone. (calls out) I\u2019m on the phone.<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/strong>Uh-oh. Someone on here?<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Yes.<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/strong>Oh. I\u2019m sorry. (Laughs) I (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> It\u2019s long distance.<\/p>\n

Hangs up.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Don\u2019t even lifts the damn phone. (unintelligible word)\u2013\u00a0Who was that?<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: I don\u2019t know. It was one of the security people.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Babbling idiots. And you said that\u2013 Who\u2019s been doing it? June?<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Yeah. It\u2019s okay to involve\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> All right. She\u2019s very quiet. I don\u2019t know about her. I never okayed her to do it. But I don\u2019t know that woman. Probably\u2019s gonna mean full responsibility for me sometime later on. Which I\u2019m trying to avoid. I am a uh\u2013 Well, I bear scars. That\u2019s where I am to this degree today. And you might say, I am worked to the bone. Literally. I don\u2019t want to go into it any further. (Pause) Bloody, unbowed, but raw. You deeply understand me?<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> And that\u2019s what they do<\/em> to me. That\u2019s just what they do<\/em> to me, when there\u2019s more people that\u2019s brought into it. More burdens I get. There\u2019s only one way that our leader has today to fight (several unintelligible words) to keep loyalties. Only one way. (Pause) Particularly (unintelligible word). Now let\u2019s see (unintelligible word) I can\u2019t say it. All only one way for all people. It\u2019s hard to quantify.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Seems like\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> People don\u2019t follow character but charisma. Character won\u2019t take them through. Charisma will\u2013 They\u2019ll stand and work for charisma, but not character. The greatest pain in my life or my death. The greatest glory of my release will be that. When I can die, don\u2019t cry for me. People don\u2019t want to follow a character. A few of you do. A few of you do. Very<\/em> few of you. Most of them, their loyalties are enhanced by time for hearing their burdens. You understand me?<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> The greatest sorrow to me is that, all the sensitivity and deep, deep hurt in that feeling I have in my mind, concern, like I\u2019m concerned about Wanda Johnson\u2019s child, even though Wanda\u2019s despicable at times \u2013 remind me tomorrow, my memory\u2019s (unintelligible word), And I\u2019m concerned about Johnson, that big fat oaf bringing in another little\u2013 his<\/em> daughter, the minute her own son\u2019s gone, and expecting her to love her dau\u2013 his daughter after he\u2019s beat on her son. But give it to me to bring up to the office. That thing I got (unintelligible word) in my mind. That\u2019s tough<\/em>, you know. He wouldn\u2019t\u2013 he wouldn\u2019t give a nice word to her son. And now, the minute\u2013 immediately she\u2019s gone and he drags in his<\/em> daughter, and she\u2019s supposed to love and cherish her. That\u2019s (unintelligible word) for a mother. Wouldn\u2019t have her son around. In other words, my sensitivity and feeling I do for all<\/em> the members, even people that I don\u2019t trust, like Wanda. I don\u2019t trust Wanda. I would\u2013 I could be a demagogue and people would follow me, if I\u2019m charismatic enough. You understand.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> That\u2019s dreadful to me. Don\u2019t talk about it either, \u2018cause you can\u2019t fill it out. I\u2019m filling it out too much, I\u2019ve talked about this too much in PC, because (unintelligible word) people. It limits your ability to use your talents, to keep them in\u2013 in mind (Sighs) involved in.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t have anything to do over with it, much less honesty in that department. (Pause) Although some of you, the honesty\u2019s going to be loyal. But there damn few of you. Some of you didn\u2019t know what was going on, you being very much in question. But me, I just need to know though some, that I\u2019d throw it out in general PC meetings. That the some know what\u2019s going on, the few loyal ones. You, Stoen, Jean Brown, I don\u2019t know how many loyal ones I got. Not very many. Other than the\u2013 the rest, I\u2013 I could name some others, but all those have got good reason to be loyal. But you know what I mean.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: You mean by virtue of what you\u2019ve had to do.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Mmm. (unintelligible sentence) We\u2019re on public property. Yeah. So\u00a0 I can\u2019t separate the loyalty there. (Pause) I don\u2019t know what\u2019s loyal or not. I don\u2019t begrudge them the fact. I\u2019m not sure that Jeannie isn\u2019t looking forward to it. (Yawns, unintelligible word) time for me to discuss her problems. (Pause) Don\u2019t believe in loyalty, unless your\u2019re\u2013 unless you give them something to be loyal for. The mind of (unintelligible word) leader\u2019s always at. But there\u2019s no need to shout about the need for loyalty, you\u2019re gonna have to give some for people, they\u2019ve got to get something from you. There is such a time as something coming along that they can get more of, then you\u2019re gone. Loyalties wax and wane with familiarity and with aging and everything else.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: It says something about\u2013 (clears throat)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> It says that we\u2019re hardly a step above the ape. The ape gets up and beats his chest and shows more fearlessness, and anybody that can beat the hell out of the other ape, he rules the entire company. And in a great<\/em>sense, that\u2019s where I\u2019m at. I\u2019m\u2013 uh, uh, the reason people follow me is I\u2019m the most unafraid or I\u2019m something else. Same business, you know.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Hmm.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> But that still doesn\u2019t dim the view of where we\u2019re supposed to be headed, toward apostolic situations. It\u2019s either that or perish anyway, there\u2019s no alternative. Either apostolic, or death. And at least I think that\u2019s almost\u2013 that\u2019s the greatest uh, earmark of few of us\u2019 dedication, that we continue to believe in, it\u2019s death, not apostolic. That way, you\u2019re gonna succeed. That\u2019s the greatest thing about this wonderful work, it should be written. But nobody will read it, probably. You know that nobody\u2019ll read it, so we don\u2019t write it. (Short laugh) Even\u00a0 it\u2019ll be disintegrated to dust, probably, but that we continue to do what\u2019s right, no matter what. We keep an order and a structure together for our people inside it. We have a loyalty to the family, above all other loyalties, so that people will not be hurt by being out in the world alone, without anyone to defend them. More need to talk about that publicly than me. That\u2019s the most amazing<\/em> thing about this work.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Huh? And how you\u2013 Speak about it, when probably most feel\u2013 I mean, don\u2019t you\u2013\u00a0 don\u2019t\u2013 aren\u2019t most optimistic? The way they (unintelligible word)\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Yeah, but\u2013 Yeah, but you can say it like this, well, whether\u2013 even Father, whether he felt that it was gonna be success or failure, he would remain\u2013 even if he thought all of would cut him tomorrow down or torture him, turn against him the next day, he would still fight for us to the last breath. What amazing love this is. I tell them, with no hope of reward\u2013 they can still have a reward, if I don\u2019t have one, you know, put in that line. There\u2019s not enough made<\/em> of that in this group, and they can\u2019t identify with it either, by one exposure. \u2018Cause there nobody else functions that way. No one else can function, knowing that they are piece of shit and that\u2013 and are willing to throw themselves out rather than to be have to be thrown out. Willing to get out of the way, when they could no longer serve the group. Willing to take total responsibility for other people\u2019s mistakes, we count down to a showdown. Somebody was falsely accused and was gonna be endangered, I\u2019d<\/em> take the blame. I wouldn\u2019t let nobody take it. I was talking about taking the blame and going to jail for me. Bullshit<\/em>. I wouldn\u2019t allow it. (Pause) I didn\u2019t allow it for PC, I\u2019ve had\u2013 for Pa\u2013 Patty, I didn\u2019t allow it for Carolyn [Layton], I didn\u2019t allow it for a host of people. Jeff. Nobody. I moved in when it was extremely dangerous to me to move into the situation. There ain\u2019t nobody goes to jail for me. I may well go to jail for those people, but ain\u2019t nobody going to jail for me, if I<\/em> can do anything about it. (Pause) Suffer enough for so many of you, hard work, truth\u2013 whether I think the knowledge that you got somebody that loves you. (unintelligible word) would be a reward that I would uh, be happy to work for. I\u2019d like the knowledge of somebody to carry\u2013 I don\u2019t need it anymore, though, doesn\u2019t make any difference to me whether they\u2013 I don\u2019t\u2013 (stumbles over words) Some of you got that point, where you don\u2019t care to live, don\u2019t care to die, don\u2019t make any difference whether you\u2019ve got anybody, but the one thing I can always justify, that we ought be\u2013 I ought to be reminded of, the workers ought to be reminded of is that there\u2019s one thing we should be grateful for is that we were working (unintelligible word), that we\u2019ve got the only person in this world that loves purely, that thinks (stretches out word) way beyond where he needs to think. I just gave you an example, though, of Wanda Johnson.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Um-hmm.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> \u2018Cause she isn\u2019t\u2013 I know Wanda Johnson, but there\u2019s nothing to gain for me. I wanted a telephone call for Ava and John Brown, you know. In the midst of a battle, I\u2019ll think of individuals, yesterday, last night.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> And never, never lose sight of the individual. Even when I\u2019m half\u2013 uh, (unintelligible word), when I\u2019m just half-witted, and down to the practically death\u2019s door. And I\u2019ve been sittin\u2019 on buckets and everything else, uh, I been\u2013 there not\u2013 (several unintelligible words), I have not stopped this dehydration. I\u2019m pouring enough at the other end, but I can\u2019t stop it. And I\u2019ve had no time to get to the doctor until tomorrow. Next day. \u00a0(Pause) Now I don\u2019t want to get into no (unintelligible word) elaboration, you don\u2019t need that, but I thought you could help me out. It can be capsulized, what I\u2019m saying here that, to remind others that\u2013 You\u2019re taping it, are you?<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Oh, that\u2019s good. Now don\u2019t lose this sucker.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: I won\u2019t.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> These tapes are gonna haunt<\/em> us one day, we\u2019re gonna have to get these tapes marshaled together. A tape like that should be kept uh\u2013 we could remind ourselves to remind others of our goodness. \u2018Cause I don\u2019t have a motivation to do it. Finally, tell all the people\u2013 I want to try to get the dates out of Sandy Bradshaw, so I\u2019m trying to tell everybody to marshal all the tapes and bring them to me. Every tape you\u2019ve got, every tape everybody\u2019s got. I\u2019m talking personally (unintelligible word), you know. (unintelligible word) And I hope they\u2019re really<\/em> guarded. Are they safeguarded?<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Uh, yeah, I think they\u2019re\u2013 they\u2019re well-guarded.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible word) Believe me, it only takes one time for somebody to make hay on them, cutting out excerpts and stuff. Nothing illegal, but embarrass a lot. If I was to be honesty and truth of it. Well, I won\u2019t hold you longer. You got a lot to do. I know it, and that burdens me, and I feel guilty about it, but I don\u2019t know what else in the hell to do.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Uh\u2013 How\u2013 how long will the uh, D.C. trip last? Week?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Oh, it\u2019ll have to go more than a week. You can\u2019t a damn thing done in a week, uh\u2013 like we oughta get done in a week. I think uh, 12 days, like we have. No, it\u2019s about 12 days. Nineteenth to thirty-first.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Okay. Uh\u2013 Do you want then to go ahead with Chaikin\u2019s idea, or should we wait and discuss it.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> What\u2019s that?<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Using the radio?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I think it\u2019s all right. I think it\u2019s all right. It sounds good to me, uh\u2013 sounds good.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: And\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> But it\u2019s a little contradictory uh, for what purpose, you know, unless we\u2019re gonna have further healing services. In defense, yes, it could be done, say this is just to show you some of the great and wonderful miracles that\u2019ve been accomplished through Christ. My Christ is the Holy Spirit, what can (fades out) through Jim Jones, I\u2019d say, quit that bastard of bishop. I think I mentioned Bishop once for identification, but to the (unintelligible word) through Jim Jones. Let me seem like the rest of them, though. You know, don\u2019t say Reverend Jim Jones. Say, though Jim Jones is a man of several degrees, graduate of the best universities. Studied law. (Off phone) No, no, no, no, no, no, no. (Back to Prokes) And a doctorate<\/em>. But uh, he wants to be called Jim Jones. That\u2019d be a good point. And I think that they ought to put that, by the way, in the release. My education (unintelligible word).<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Okay.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know about the doctorate, because that\u2019s honorary (unintelligible word) you know, but uh\u2013 Yes. Many university graduate and a public school teacher, principals. Principal. Always one for making a living. Uh\u2013 graduate of the best university. Attended several universities and graduate of the best. (Pause) But he always thought he would use his degree (unintelligible word), an honorary doctor degree. (several unintelligible words) Doesn\u2019t use any of that. Don\u2019t use\u2013 Doesn\u2019t use any of two titles. Two<\/em> honorary doctor degrees, I meant, (unintelligible word), that group I befriended in los Angeles, I don\u2019t know what their religion is, they got the qualifications to bestow a doctorate. They (several unintelligible words).<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Hmm.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> If somebody\u2019s got a patient, got hope, somebody\u2019s gotta\u2013 I don\u2019t know what the hell to do with it, I don\u2019t give a shit about stuff like that. Somebody better have it, I don\u2019t know where it is\u2013 where they\u2013 or never to keep stuff like that. \u2018cause I wouldn\u2019t\u2013 (several unintelligible words) What\u2019d you say?<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Uh, I was gonna mention that uh, the film came back and they\u2019ll have\u2013 they\u2019ll have it ready\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Oh, that\u2019s good.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: It\u2019s uh\u2013 It should go about 40 minutes.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> That\u2019s the best thing we can have in the world is get something to talk to them about. I haven\u2019t (unintelligible word) We will be able to go tomorrow night?<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Yeah. I\u2019m editing it now.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Mm-hmm. Interesting if it were undesirable pictures of miserable conditions.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Yeah, some of that. Bad exposures and out-of-focus stuff.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Well, some out-of-focus stuff, we don\u2019t need to worry too much about it, if it\u2019s\u2013 it doesn\u2019t make the office look terribly bad. Sometimes that\u2019s funny. That can be sort of little fun along the way. To pass the staff if there were something they want to pick up on, don\u2019t worry about it, don\u2019t cut out everything. And I\u2019m sure you\u2019ve had some good shots, that\u2013 We shouldn\u2019t miss some things that they\u2013 he look on second take, you know, reveal something.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Okay.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I\u2019m glad you do that movie work, \u2018cause that\u2019s the best thing of the trips. Too bad they can\u2019t know where\u2013 where in the hell we are over there. Talk to Tim about me, what I said about to you about the government, approaching them, somebody, but again, it ought to be Paula and Chaikin. But humbly done, to say this is the wilderness, that this wilderness, that we can\u2019t get these people, that\u2013 that\u2013 that we\u2019re not\u2013 the government paper, they can understand why they can\u2018t get these people off our backs. No other church is out there. No, that\u2019s too strong. But say, I\u2013 there\u2019s no other\u2013 other churches are not out there, toiling from sun-up to sundown to feed the nation. We don\u2019t know<\/em> of any other church, anyway. You know, kind of humble. And here we have to spend all this resource defending ourselves when we have not had any personal ambitions, as clearly<\/em> indicated, when we refuse to take any money even, through the Guyanese people. And instead of being grateful to us, to give it to agriculture. Say, if everybody\u2013 body come in your country did that\u2013 But that\u2019s too strong. Say, if everybody\u2013 I don\u2019t know. Say, in our experience, at least, we don\u2019t know of any other missionary that\u2019ve operated that way. They usually come into a country and take out. Even\u2013 many nations, they still send money to American headquarters. We absolutely refuse to accept even a dime. And when we said they want to help, send it to the Ministry of Ag\u2013 you send it, not the Ministry of Agriculture, but the School of Agriculture. Say, we\u2019da been glad<\/em> to tell them to send it to the uh, government\u2013 for various programs, but we\u2013 we didn\u2019t want to do that without your approval, because that would link our church with your government. We didn\u2019t want the\u2013 We weren\u2019t\u2013 Our\u2013 Our bishop said we are not going to be that presumptuous. But when I say it\u2019s the school of agriculture, we thought that would be indirectly. Or telling them to do their own agricultural mission. Say, our\u2013 our pastor has an ability to raise funds, he can marshal great funds, even from your own people, into your program, but he felt like it\u2019d be misunderstood.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Okay.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I think that elastic might\u2013 might appeal to them. They love money. I understand Burnham takes offerings something like\u2013 somewhat like I do. They can say it jokingly, say the only person we ever saw they can take and then cause people to give to a good cause, we\u2019ve only see one like it, and that\u2019s Mr.\u2013 it\u2019s your own prime minister. We\u2019ve never handled all this money. They ought to say too that they were\u2013 he never handled it. Don\u2019t imply the\u2013 the same note that it sounds like that Mr. Burnham does, but say that\u2013 they ought to say that before they bring Mr. Burnham\u2019s name into play. You know, he never handles<\/em> the money, won\u2019t touch it, but he can raise money, and he can raise no doubt thousands<\/em> of dollars there, but he knew it would be misunderstood, even if there\u2019d been uh\u2013 what, in future meetings there woulda been\u2013 it coulda been wonderful, there coulda been people from the various programs to receive the money. (Pause) You know, just like in what might have been. I don\u2019t know what they realize what they\u2019ve lost, but they\u2019ve lost a great deal. (Pause) They coulda silenced<\/em> this damn opposition, if they\u2019ve got any government hold on there. They\u2019d had no outlet. The press that\u2013 in control, they had no outlet.<\/p>\n

(Prokes and Jones speak over each other)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> \u00a0\u2013 not outlet for the criticisms. Where the hell they gonna talk about it?<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Who\u2019s that?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Who<\/em>? These people that\u2019re attacking<\/em> us.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Oh. I see. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> You know, they say it\u2019s such a perfect situation, they let people work\u2013 trying to work for them. Then they get a little (unintelligible word), a little quick and humbly. Say the hardest thing for our people to understand, or hard to comprehend is why we have to face criticism from people who have consistently tried to thwart the efforts of your government and criticize your government. We take up our precious time defending ourselves from people like this, the government thinks. (clears throat) (Pause) Our pastor is uh, a born leader, but he doesn\u2019t want any uh, glory for himself here. He\u2019s got tremendous following behind\u2013 good congressmen in the U.S. that were working civil rights. That\u2019s safe to say. He would\u2019ve\u2013 he could\u2019ve marshaled half your city into your camp. The people. That\u2019s why the minister, (unintelligible word) threatened. They can say it is obvious (unintelligible word)\u2013 they\u2013 they\u2013 they can say, that\u2019s why at least you ministers are so\u2013 so threatened, \u2018cause they can draw\u2013 But you can say, we\u2019ve had two ministers that\u2019ve come to our support, very forcefully. If they have to give a name, give them (unintelligible name). But don\u2019t give us (unintelligible word) church, you know, whatever, you know, unless they have to. They want to know who\u2019s in (unintelligible word). They can say another common name, Reverend something, you know, common name there. \u2018Cause they may take it as me being a threat to them. If they could see<\/em> that there were no threat, he can marshal\u2013 You wouldn\u2019t have no more criticism\u2013 there\u2019d be no criticism of your government in his<\/em>churches. Anybody that was in his<\/em> congregation, or in uh, our<\/em> mission. We don\u2019t tolerate it. We don\u2019t tolerate criticism of the uh\u2013 we\u2013 we\u2013\u00a0 it just policy, if you\u2019ve got something to say to the government, you don\u2019t sneak around and sow division. You go directly to the person that\u2019s in charge of whatever program you dislike. Write it to them privately. \u2018Cause a nation\u2013 newly-emo\u2013\u2013 emerging nations need unity, total and complete. I\u2019m amazed that they don\u2019t respond to this. They might question our loyalty, we\u2019re gonna use such power for our own ends, they can say we\u2019d be glad to take a lie detector test to prove to you our loyalty. That\u2019s what you say to government people.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Somebody\u2019s got some significance. (unintelligible word) refuse to get out of the streets, \u2018cause the government\u2019s not popular. Or to the little man at the low end of the totem pole. Somebody like (unintelligible name)\u2013<\/p>\n

(interruption by another open line for several seconds)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Hmm?<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Trying to (unintelligible word). I think he\u2019s home.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Okay.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: All right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Yeah, (unintelligible sentence), get Carolyn a lot of briefing tomorrow when you get there, just in case I send her out there.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Okay.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Umm-hmm. I love you, man.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Thank you, Jim.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Sorry you have to be involved in so much damn strategy. The only thing that I hate is that trustworthiness, by its own merit, creates such a responsibility. But at least you know you\u2019ve got purpose, and there\u2019s no other thing in life that\u2019s more fulfilling than purpose and being loved by person that loves the most and someone that\u2019s trying to teach others to love the most. (unintelligible word) eloquently said that, no other thing can be offered to you. However very few I can trust.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: I know that.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Take care.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Okay, Jim.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Bye-bye.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: Bye.<\/p>\n

End of tape<\/strong><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you. To return to the Tape Index, click here. To read the Tape Summary, click here. Listen to MP3 (Pt. 1,\u00a0Pt. 2). (This tape was transcribed by Nicole Bissett. The\u00a0editors gratefully acknowledge her invaluable assistance.) Mike Prokes: They uh\u2013 They said we now have […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":8,"featured_media":0,"parent":27291,"menu_order":368,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-108346","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/108346","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/8"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=108346"}],"version-history":[{"count":4,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/108346\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":108437,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/108346\/revisions\/108437"}],"up":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27291"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=108346"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}