{"id":108349,"date":"2021-02-08T13:31:08","date_gmt":"2021-02-08T21:31:08","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=108349"},"modified":"2023-06-18T17:10:33","modified_gmt":"2023-06-19T00:10:33","slug":"q656-transcript","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=108349","title":{"rendered":"Q656 Transcript"},"content":{"rendered":"

If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n

To return to the Tape Index, click here.<\/a>
\nTo read the Tape Summary, click here<\/a>. Listen to MP3 (Pt. 1<\/a>,\u00a0Pt. 2<\/a>).<\/p>\n

(This tape was transcribed by Nicole Bissett. The<\/em> editors gratefully acknowledge her invaluable assistance.)<\/em><\/p>\n

Jeanette Kerns:<\/strong> Good evening.<\/p>\n

Carol Kerns:<\/strong> Hi, Jeanette?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Hi, Carol.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> This is Carol.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> How are you?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Fine, how ya doin\u2019?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I thought you were going to call me earlier so I could come and get you.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> I did<\/em> call earlier, but you weren\u2019t (unintelligible word) home.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Oh, I was at work. How are you?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> All right. What\u2019s been going on?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Pretty good, everything.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Uh\u2013 Yeah, Bonnie told uh, Jim to tell me about what was going on.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> And so, I thought maybe you\u2019d want to tell me your\u2013 yourself.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Huh? What? Didn\u2019t he tell you?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Huh?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> I\u2013 I don\u2019t understand what\u2019s\u2013 what\u2019s going on with Ruth [Kerns], I wanted some, you know, basic understanding with you.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Okay.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> \u2018Cause I don\u2019t want to be (unintelligible word) fighting, you know. It hurts\u2013 It hurts me if we\u2019re going to be fighting. I don\u2019t want to\u2013 You and me, I don\u2019t want to be anything between us, you know.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Well, there\u2019s nothing really between you and I.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Okay.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Nothing at all.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Mm-hmm [Yes].<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> And that\u2019s the truth. It\u2019s just that Ruth is going to have an operation and she didn\u2019t have any place to go. (Pause) Kidney operation.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Well, you know, so you wouldn\u2019t have had to take it on yourself, you coulda told, you know, let us know, you know, we coulda helped as a\u2013 on a group<\/em>, as a group<\/em> basis you know? Father said that he really\u2013 he loves her. He loves you, and he\u2019s willing to forget, you know, willing to forget anything she has, you know, done or anything, you know.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Well, you know, there\u2019s no problem about that. I realize that completely, and you know, and uh, there\u2019s no problem with that. Trying to (unintelligible word) your point. But there\u2019s nothing that\u2019s going to come in between you and I.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Okay, so what happened?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Somebody on the phone?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Huh?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Somebody on the other line?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> No. Just me. Oh, Ann Harris passed.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> So, but uh, you know, Ruth is going to be moving out, short\u2013 you know, when she finds out exactly what\u2019s happening. (unintelligible name) already rented his (unintelligible word) apartment. So. She\u2019ll be moving out in about two and a half weeks.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Oh. Okay, well, I didn\u2019t understand, also, \u2018cause\u2013 like, my mom [Penny Kerns] came out, I don\u2019t understand, you know, how she would\u2013 how it would upset you coming\u2013 her coming so late at night, you know.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> She came at 4:00 in the morning.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Yeah, I know.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> It was horrible.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> But I don\u2019t understand, like\u2013 so Ruth said, if you only knew what was\u2013 what was said behind your back, that you would kill yourself.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> She was just being emotional.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Yeah, I don\u2019t know why you wouldna stuck up for her\u2013 for uh, you know, denied that\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I told her\u2013 I told her to be quiet.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> I know, but you shoulda said\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> She doesn\u2019t say the right thing all the time.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Father has never said anything behind her back. She has never\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I know that.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> I know\u2013 but you shoulda said, you know\u2013 you know how Penny has suicidal tendencies. You\u2013 You shoulda said that wasn\u2019t true<\/em>.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I do not understand your point\u2013 your stand at all.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Well\u2013 Well, you shoulda said that wasn\u2019t true.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Carol, what did you\u2013 You didn\u2019t even hear my side of it.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Okay. Well\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> You just listened to Penny\u2019s side.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Now what\u2013 Okay.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> You should be more objective. And I have a lot of trust in you, I know you\u2019re intelligent.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Okay.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> You should be more objective.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Well, I want to listen to your side. So\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Well, I think we should discuss it, not\u00ad\u2013 not over the phone, but in\u2013 person to person. (Pause) Okay?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Well, you want to come out here and talk with us?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Where are you?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> I\u2019m at\u2013 I\u2019m near ch\u2013 I\u2019m here near church. Annie Harris was in our church.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Annie Harris was\u2013 I thought you weren\u2019t gonna come over this weekend.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Huh? Well, I couldn\u2019t get a hold of you.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> How\u2013 how much did you try?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Huh? I tried quite a few times today.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> What time?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> I tried\u2013 (sigh) Oh, when I first got here, I tried and you weren\u2019t home.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> And then what time did you try again?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> I tried in the afternoon.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> What time?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> I don\u2019t remember. It was about two o\u2019clock. But uh, I was in service, you know, and I didn\u2019t want to miss service either.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Well, I want\u2013 I want to tell you right now, okay?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> That I\u2019m not going to\u2013 there\u2019s no worry, that I didn\u2019t say anything wrong against the Temple in any way. And I\u2019m not going to. It\u2019s just that Ruth didn\u2019t have any place to go. At all.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> And there\u2019s no problem in her thinking\u2013 saying anything to me about any other thing. \u2018Cause that\u2019s what you think.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Well, I was kinda upset, \u2018cause uh\u2013 Did you say you were leaving\u2013 you had left the church?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> No. (Pause) I wasn\u2019t\u2013 I\u2019m not participating in it like I used to.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Yeah, I know. It\u2019s kinda bad. \u2018Cause you know, it seems to me like we do need a group.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Huh?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Do you feel like we need a group? I don\u2019t know, it seems to me, \u2018cause, ya know\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> (cuts in) Carol, I want to tell you, okay?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Yeah, what?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I want you, I\u2013 like I told Bonnie. I\u2019m sure she told you everything I said, and probably not<\/em> everything I said.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Okay? And I want you to make up your own mind about what you want to do.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Well, I made it up.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Huh?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> I\u2019ve made up my mind.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> What\u2019re you going to do?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> I think I\u2019m just going to stay at the Valley, because it is a group thing, you know.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Well, I\u2013 you have that right. And like, uh, just because Ruth was here, because she was sick, and that\u2019s the only reason, and you\u2019re gonna judge me for that?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> No, I\u2019m not going to judge you. I want you to tell me.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Well, I know, I know, I know you\u2019re\u2013 I know what\u2019s happening with your head.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Well\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I\u2019m not stupid. Now, I want to tell you something, that I want you to make up your mind, what you<\/em> want to do. If you want to stay up there, you stay up there. Because I want you to do what you want to do. But I want you to know that I love you, and that you\u2019re welcome here, and that if you come here, there\u2019ll be nothing said\u2013<\/p>\n

Carol<\/strong>: (Clears throat)<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> \u2013against the Temple, I will take you there, let you participate in any function, I will not talk against the people in any way to you. I haven\u2019t done it to Ruth, I haven\u2019t done it to anyone. But I have made up my mind about a few things.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> On what?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Okay?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Yeah, what have you made up your mind about?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Not about the Temple, but other\u2013 other things the way I want to live my life.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Well, I wish you would come to meetings more. (Pause) I don\u2019t know, you don\u2019t want to? Or\u2013 Or you feel you\u2019re not accepted or what?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Well, I can tell you that, but not on the phone. Okay?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Has\u2013 Okay. Well, uh, okay, is Ruth there? Now?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Huh? No, she\u2019s not here right now.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> \u2018Cause I wanted to talk to her.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> About what?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Huh? Just talk to her. Because we get all\u2013 I don\u2019t want, you know\u2013 Father\u2013 as much as from Father that he loves her too. You know, and he\u2019s willing, you know, to forget anything.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> \u00a0Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> And you know, he said some things that\u2013 He wanted me to tell her that.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Well, I want to tell you one thing. I\u2019d never lie to you.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Umm-hmm. (Banging noises)<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> What are you doing on the other side of the phone?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Uh, I\u2019m eating something. Aspirin.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> So I knew in my mind that, uh, this would happen.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> And I just hope that they told you the truth from the other side.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Well, I know that uh\u2013 Well, I know Jim didn\u2019t\u2013 didn\u2019t\u2013 he said, Jim told me\u2013 he said that, when Penny tried to talk to him \u2013 right? \u2013 he didn\u2019t want to hear it, because he\u2019d never talked behind her back before and didn\u2019t wa\u2013 didn\u2019t want to now. And he\u2019s never\u2013 he uh\u2013 he said he wanted to\u2013 you know, he\u2013 he\u2013 I wanted to hear it from you. Okay. Uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> So what do you think? I told you. What do you think of that?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Hmm? What did he think of what?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> What do you think about that? What I told you?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> What? Well, I think it\u2019s\u2013 I think, uh, I\u2013 I\u2013 It makes me feel better.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Huh?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Makes me feel better.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Well, what do you think<\/em> of it? I want to know, what your opinion is of it? I want you to tell me what you<\/em>think, not what somebody else thinks.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Well, I think, (unintelligible phrase) That is\u2013 That is what I thought.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Well, tell me what you think again. I want to hear it one more time.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> I think that you should get\u2013 should be more involved.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> About what?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Huh?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> About how\u2013 in\u2013 in what way?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> In the church activities.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> (cuts in abruptly) How?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> How?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Tell me.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know, when you come to meetings when you can.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> And what other phases? And I want to know your opinion about having Ruth over here at my\u2013 at my apartment.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> I don\u2019t\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> When she\u2019s sick.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> I don\u2019t, I don\u2019t feel that uh\u2013 I don\u2019t feel you should\u2019ve taken upon yourself to do that. Because I don\u2019t think you know the whole (unintelligible word) about Ruth.<\/p>\n

(Two of them talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> I think you could have told us, and if I\u2013 so we could\u2013 woulda helped on a group basis. (pause) You know?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> In what type of group basis?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> The group<\/em> woulda\u2013 coulda helped her. We could\u2019ve all helped her.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> In what phase?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Huh?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Tell me how.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> How?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> How.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know. Money? Whatever money she needed. We\u2013 I think that, you still woulda been wise to talk to\u2013 talk to\u2013 to Scarlet, you know? You know what I mean, Jeanette, instead of taking it on yourself<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> (cuts in) I have a (unintelligible word)\u2013 I wanna tell ya, I have told you\u2013 I have told you, and I have told the Temple, every phase of my life.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Um-hmm.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Up until recently. Every phase of it. And I have been honest with Jim in every phase.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Well, I know\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> (cuts in) And I saw Ruth\u2013<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Uhm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> She called me. She was\u2013 She was gonna have an operation, and she was alone, and I\u2019m gonna\u2013 in like there\u2019s any way that I can help her right now, I told her, I don\u2019t want to discuss the Temple in any way. And I don\u2019t want<\/em> to. That doesn\u2019t have\u2013 it doesn\u2019t have anything to do with our relationship right now. I just want to make sure she\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Okay.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> And that\u2019s it.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> (cuts in) Well, would\u2013 would you like to talk to uh, Linda?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Linda?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Linda\u2019s over here.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> No, I don\u2019t want to.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> You want to talk to Linda?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> No. (Pause) Linda who?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Linda Amos?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> No, that\u2019s all right.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> \u2018Cause I think she would want to talk to you.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Hmm?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> I think she\u2019d probably like to talk to you.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Well, if she wants to talk to me, fine.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Okay, hang on. I\u2019ll go get her.<\/p>\n

(Carol puts phone down) (Pause for several moments)<\/p>\n

Linda Amos:<\/strong> Hello, Jeanette?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Hi, Linda.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Hi, how are you?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Fine.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Uh. Listen, uh, uh, you know I\u2019m not calling to pressure you to come or anything like that, \u2018cause uh, she would understand, you know, if you\u2013 you don\u2019t want to come right now. The only thing that, in terms of uh, Ruth\u2013 He\u2013 He really does care about her too and, you know, in terms of her being sick and stuff like that. And he would\u2019ve been glad to help, you know, help her? And uh, he knows you have uh, character, he really does. I don\u2019t know wh\u2013 I don\u2019t think you realize, how many people have bad self-images, you know what I mean?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> And I think that, uh, you\u2019re one that tortures yourself and you\u2019re\u2013 My<\/em> feeling about you is you want to be so perfect<\/em> that, you\u2019d uh, keep yourself away. Uh\u2013 And you don\u2019t have to come, you know what I\u2019m saying, but\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> But just on the basis, \u2018cause you feel like you\u2019ve done wrong<\/em> and stuff, you know?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Well, I don\u2019t feel like I\u2019ve done wrong any more at all.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> You don\u2019t?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> In that phase, no.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Well, that\u2019s good.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> \u2018Cause I don\u2019t, it\u2019s just that\u2013 you know, basic principle of like, you know, excluding<\/em> her, and then I found out she was sick, and she didn\u2019t have anybody.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Well\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> That was even worse.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Well, the thing was, I\u2013 I don\u2019t think Jim has ever excluded her, \u2018cause, you know, after\u2013 even after she left, he brought her back, you know. And he said to mention\u2013 to mention to you, that even in, you know, the van that he\u2013 that he was told about? You know, the one with the radio receiver?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> That could\u2019ve been just a coincidence. There was a van outside and he was told about it. But we were concerned when\u2013 when Ruth was picked up by a police officer and talked to him that\u2013 you know, could, uh, try to\u2013 you know, that it might\u2019ve caused trouble. But we\u2019re still here, I mean, it hasn\u2019t hurt us or anything. And you know, and the fact she went to racist\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> She told me about all that, you know?<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> And I can understand, you know, the purpose in doing that, that night.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> What was that?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Huh?<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> What was the purpose of it?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> You know, the purpose of like, uh, you know, as a means of like, you know, showing that, you know, just as\u2013 as a means of\u2013<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> To protect herself?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> To protect herself.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> But see, nobody\u2019s ever been hurt. We\u2019ve never hurt anybody. Linda Swaney said she had no character, she didn\u2019t care about her children, we haven\u2019t done anything to her<\/em>, we\u2019ve not done anything<\/em> to anybody<\/em>. I don\u2019t understand. Do\u2013 do\u2013 do you know of anyone we\u2019ve hurt or anything?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> No, I don\u2019t, and like, if that\u2013 that doesn\u2019t\u2013 you know, even\u2013 even if you did, I can understand the reason why (unintelligible words under Linda) do it.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Well, we wouldn\u2019t<\/em> do it, you know.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I know, but Linda, you know\u2013<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> I know, you\u2019re just paranoid\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I\u2019m not talking about a religious sense or any of that, you know, crap. I\u2019m talking about basic, you know, things that you have to do sometimes to protect a lot of people.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Um-hmm. And no\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette<\/strong>: And I\u2019m not\u2013 And I\u2019m not dumb about that. And I\u2019m like, what I\u2019m saying is that, like, as far as like that other<\/em>, you know, as far as Ruth being here and saying negative things, that has nothing<\/em> to do with my relationship with the Temple.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Well, I appreciate that, you know, I understand. Can I\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> But what I\u2019m saying is that uh, like, you know, like, she just needed a place to go\u2013<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Yeah\u2013 I understand.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> \u2013for the time being, till she gets her operation and taken care of.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Yeah, we understand. Yeah, that\u2019s\u2013 Well, I understand that. One thing I wanted to know, is if you would give a message to Ruth. If I\u2019ll tell you this message, would you give the mess\u2013 message to Ruth? \u2018Cause maybe this\u2019ll make her feel not so shut out.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Well, she really still\u2013 I\u2013 I\u2019ll tell ya, she feels really<\/em> hostile.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Yeah, I know. I don\u2019t think it\u2019ll change her, you know, but you know, uh, it doesn\u2019t hurt to, to extend it, not because we expect her to come back or anything. But it\u2013 it just might be that someday, it might mean something to her or at least, uh\u2013 (exhales) Jim wanted to extend a message to her and, if you wouldn\u2019t mind doing it.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> No, I don\u2019t mind.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Would you m\u2013 Okay. Uh\u2013 Jim said that he would be\u2013 he kind of hoped that we could talk to Ruth directly, but that\u2019s okay. He said he\u2019d be more than happy to talk to her to get some more coma\u2013 camaraderie, you know. And he said he\u2019d even be willing to forget the Ross Case incident, uh, although a lot of people in church are pretty uptight about it, you know, official in the church, because he\u2019s such a hypocrite, Ross Case, you know, that she talked to him. It\u2013 Jim said that there were probably things hurtful to her that were done by others, though he\u2019s never hurt her himself, you know. But he pro\u2013 he\u2013 he does empathize with the fact that, she, you know, probably had some things hurtful done to her, you know? And uh, he\u2013 he did say to tell her because, uh, she might be upset about that van incident, and if it was a coincidence, you know\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yes, she\u2019s really upset about that.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Yeah, well, he realized that and he doesn\u2019t want her to f\u2013 feel, you know, that, uh, if she\u2013 if that\u2013 if she wasn\u2019t involved in that, he doesn\u2019t want her to feel that, you know, everybody\u2019s hung up about that, \u2018cause he was just told about it, you know, he was inside at the time and someone told him that she went to talk to someone in the van, but he said it could\u2019ve been just a coincidence. There was a van there, because it was seen. And you know how people can put things together, okay? But Jim just was told about it, so that\u2019s all he knew. Uh, uh, and uh, that he<\/em>wondered\u2013 he did<\/em> wonder why Ruth, after hearing the truth, had gone to that Jesus movement, you know. Because, uh\u2013 and I\u2019m sure you know, you wonder about that yourself. (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah, I know.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> (laughs) And he\u2013 he\u2013 he\u2013 he\u2013 well, we kinda wonder too whether she left or was thrown out. We\u2013 Some of the people there told us that she was thrown out. We couldn\u2019t\u2013 It was hard for us to believe that she could think babies have devils in them or that people could burn eternally in hell, because Jim said she was very intelligent. He really did, I swear.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> And uh, \u2018cause all of you guys are, you know, extremely smart. Anyway, uh, and, uh, in terms of her paranoia, uh, Linda Swaney did say in there, you know, a lot of people have heard that\u2013 that uh, she had no character and stuff like that. Nothing was done against her. Clara uh, Phillips, you know, wanted to uh, you know, to\u2013 to get us to buy her house, she threatened to, you know, blackmail, whitemail<\/a> her\u2013 her, whatever, us, you know?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> And nothing was done against them, you know. I know people get paranoid and stuff, but nothing has been done. Nothing\u2019s been used<\/em> against them, you know. Okay, uh, let\u2019s see, another thing that uh, we heard that she doesn\u2019t feel that we got Phillip [Kerns] out of jail, and that Jim risked his life to do that. Well, if they don\u2019t think Jim got Phillip out of jail, which, you know, I mean, he did, but anyway, if they don\u2019t think that\u2013 if Ruth doesn\u2019t think it, uh, they certainly knew Jim\u2013 uh, she certainly knew Jim risked his life to even involve himself. Right?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Okay, and uh, we just wanted to say this friend of ours uh, uh, was just cleared of three burglary charges and of interfering with an officer, a black friend, and this kind of thing, uh, that we think is paranormal, that\u2013 that Jim can affect this kind of thing. Sh\u2013 she can, you know, she may have doubts, but it\u2019s hard for\u2013 for us to not feel that, you know, these kind of things must be, you know, unusual. Anyway.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> You know, well, you know, it\u2019s just the thing about, you know, what\u2013 I think we\u2013 well, basically what she just talked about is, you know, about the van.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Yeah. Well, that\u2019s good to know.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> And also about the other, you know, the usage of, you know, you know, healings and all that stuff, as a means of attracting people for, you know, socialism.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> You\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> You see what I\u2019m saying? It\u2019s a device.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Yeah\u2013 I understand. But the only<\/p>\n

Jeanette<\/strong>: And (unintelligible word) which, you know, is necessary. But like, it\u2019s hard for some people to realize that.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Except that\u2013 what\u2013 that\u2013 it\u2019s\u2013 I mean I can\u2019t really see<\/em> when people\u2019s lives are\u2013 are saved, that it could be a device, \u2018cause, like the lady with the five op\u2013 uh, had five operations for cancer. Lovie de Pina?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> I mean, how can you say that\u2019s, you know, just a device when a\u2013 when a\u2013 a life is saved, you know. I mean it\u2019s\u2013 I think the thing is, she\u2019s been gone awhile, and in time it\u2019s easy to rationalize, but I mean, person after person\u2013 You know what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> You know, okay. Uh\u2013 (sighs) Uh, the thing with Ross Case\u2013 uh, like even Ross Case, Jim was asked by a policeman if\u2013 if Jim wanted to have him put in jail because we\u2013 there were objective witnesses that actual saw what went on with Ross Case, you know? And Jim said no. The guy was not put in jail. And that certainly was\u2013 You know, somebody could really have used this, if it wasn\u2019t that Jim was kind, he could\u2019ve really done this, because Case took, uh, eighteen\u2013 1800 dollars, ran off Jim when Case first first came to Ukiah from Indianapolis? And he had come to make a way for the people in the church, and yet when people in the church came here, you know, they were running from racists, he wouldn\u2019t give them a bed or a crumb of food, and then he goes on in this holy stuff and all that, you know, being saved and stuff. And, uh, yet, even then<\/em>, Jim didn\u2019t have him put in jail when he could\u2019ve easily, \u2018cause of the, you know when\u2013 Okay, and Jim wanted to say to Ruth that, uh, if she feels that you don\u2019t need a group, he<\/em> feels that she really must<\/em> know better, that\u2013 nowadays, you know, even like getting someone out of jail to rehabilitate them. You know you can\u2019t do those kind of things by yourself. But he said that if\u2013 if Ruth would get involved in good causes, I mean not, uh, even ours<\/em>, but he\u2013 he would be really glad to hear<\/em> about it, you know, he\u2019d be glad to hear whatever she\u2019s doing, if she\u2013 if she\u2019s doing something, you know, really productive, it doesn\u2019t matter, you know, he was just\u2013 couldn\u2019t believe that she, with her intelligence, she could get in that, you know\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> She\u2019s trying to\u2013 she\u2019s getting out of it. (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> (laughs) I know my sister\u2019s in that. Do you know my sister\u2019s in that? And you know what she wrote me?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> (laughing) What?<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> She wrote me a letter saying that I wasn\u2019t born again.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Really? (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Somebody has a sense of crap, man.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> I know.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Well, the thing, Jeanette, that, I wanted to talk to you too is, uh, not because, you know, I don\u2019t know uh, where\u2013 exactly where you\u2019re at or anything, but I did feel that we had a good talk, you know, upstairs, before.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> And I really\u2013 If you do feel that people are judging you, or, uh, hung up about something you\u2019ve done, I mean, uh, Jim said that, uh, some of the best members he\u2019s had have, you know, done all kinds of things in terms of, you know, relationships and stuff like that and\u2013 and uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> But, you know, like, Linda, I don\u2019t feel like I\u2019ve done anything wrong\u2013<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> (cuts in) No, it\u2019s not a matter of doing anything wrong.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Like (unintelligible word under Linda) Someone who doesn\u2019t belong in the group. You know what I\u2019m saying.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> It\u2019s not a matter of doing anything wrong, I\u00ad\u2013 I just thought if you<\/em> felt inside yourself\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> (Cuts in) Oh no, I just have passed over the phase and realized, you know, like uh, you know, it\u2019s\u2013 I don\u2019t feel like that anymore.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Okay. Well, good\u2013 If you could<\/em> give that message to Ruth, you know, we\u2019d really appreciate it. Because she<\/em>might feel that w\u2013<\/p>\n

Child in the background<\/strong>: Mom.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Uh, she might have a different\u2013 being that she\u2019s been out for some time, she might have uh, forgotten really what Jim\u2019s character is, you know what I mean, and\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> That message might help, \u2018specially about the van, because, uh, she might\u2019ve been hung up\u2013 Oh, listen, Carol wants to talk to you again. Can she\u2013 Do\u2013 Do you have\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Well, I also\u2013 Linda?<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> What?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Before you go.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Like uh, on that side, on your side, okay?<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Like, if\u2013 you can just, you know, like be objective with Carol.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Sure. Really.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> You know what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Like, be honest with her and like, uh, like, you know, don\u2019t give her, you know like, any like, garbage about, like, you know.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> About you and stuff.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah, about me.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Oh, man.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Tell her the truth, you know whatever\u2013<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> (cuts in) Oh, I swear, listen\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> (Cuts in) Let her make up her own mind.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> I mean\u2013 Really, uh\u2013 Jim mentioned to her too that he felt you had character. Nobody is trying to\u2013 to talk to her against you, because we don\u2019t want to have\u2013 We\u2013 Jim said that he felt it was important to Carol to have contact with\u2013 with you guys, and, you know, get together with, uh, with you. And he\u2019s sorry even that\u2013 that, uh, there\u2019s uh, a bridge with\u2013 with Ruth. You know what I mean. He would like Carol to be able to be uh, have contact with both<\/em> you and Ruth, you know what I\u2019m t\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> (Cuts in) She has enough conflicts as it is\u2013<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> (cuts in) Right, the only thing Penny felt was that\u2013 Penny wanted uh, uh\u2013 felt that Carol was better off in Redwood Valley in terms of school.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Oh, do you\u2013 do you know what she did?<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> What?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Penny? She barged in my apartment at four o\u2019clock in the morning and went searching through my apartment.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Well\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> That woman is insane. You know, and like, if she\u2019d just leave me alone, you know, that would solve a lot of problems. You know, and like, what she does, she\u2019s an alarmist. And she uh, you know\u2013 It distorts things a hundred times its size. And like, you know, the whole thing was, like, \u00a0she was attacking everything. You know, whatever we said about anything. You know, I\u2013 I\u2013<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Well, I think it\u2019s upsetting\u2013 one thing that I feel is that, is that it\u2019s upsetting to her that you\u2019re leav\u2013 that you aren\u2019t coming, right? Okay, and\u2013 and, that\u2019s one thing. I mean, I don\u2019t think we can make Penny not be upset. And when\u2013 when uh, you know\u2013 Jim has not talked to Ruth about Penny. And, uh, Ruth said that, and\u2013 and, you know how\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> (Cuts in) No, no, she didn\u2019t say that.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Well, I thought sh\u2013 that that it was said that, that, sh\u2013 Jim had talked to Ruth. And if Jim has talked, I\u2019m sure Jim\u2019s maybe made comments to you, but he\u2019s always said things that he\u2019s t\u2013 told Penny face to face, and he\u2019s always said that she had character.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Oh, I\u2019ve never confided in her anything that he\u2019s said to me about her.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> But he\u2019s\u2013 he\u2019s always uh, said things to her face<\/em>. I mean he\u2019s told her she\u2019s an alarmist, he\u2019s told her all these things, you know. The thing that maybe you don\u2019t know about is, when she came back, somebody at the church wouldn\u2019t talk to her or something and, with that situation\u2013 and, you know, in the past she had suicidal tendencies. She says she would not do anything now at all.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> But she did, and you\u2013 you know, it did upset her that\u2013 uh, that it was said to her and\u2013 and uh, you know, I mean, she\u2019s been\u2013 she has been through a lot.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Well, it\u2019s sort of in a state of emotional\u2013 like, she was\u2013 (unintelligible word) was extremely emotional at that time.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> With Penny coming in and then saying that to her. And like, when I look at you, you wan\u2013 you\u2013 I\u2013 I want to vomit.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> You know, and saying these things like\u2013<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Well, that\u2019s why\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> (Cuts in) She wanted to attack her back\u2013<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> I know.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I just said, hey, now, just don\u2019t say anything.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> (chuckles) I know. Well, that\u2019s why Jim wanted to, you know, give you this message, because uh, he\u2013 uh, he understands that, uh, that\u2013 you know, he wanted to come across the way he felt. You know what I\u2019m saying? I think the problem is you can\u2019t judge the whole what\u2013 church by what Penny says in terms of that, it\u2019s\u2013 she usually gets upset. You know what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> (unintelligible word)<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> But you can\u2019t assume that what she says, she was sent to say or anything like that, \u2018cause, you know, that\u2019s not true, you know?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> I mean, \u2018cause, uh, I know uh, everybody wants Penny to be objective and stuff like that, but see, she\u2013 she\u2019s involved in this personally, and so, uh, it\u2019s a little difficult to, you know\u2013 But she does<\/em>, she does<\/em> try to stand up for things, and\u2013 and it does<\/em> upset her that, that Ruth left and then it\u2019s\u2013 it is upsetting her that you, aren\u2019t, you know, involved, it really is because, as\u2013 the more you see what\u2019s going on in the news and stuff, it\u2019s not a matter that you\u2019re here because you\u2019re happy or something. \u2018Cause nobody\u2019s happy\u2013 it\u2019s just that people realize that, that if we\u2019re gonna do anything for, for, \u2018specially minority people and we all are minority, and we will be because, if we\u2019ve ever been involved, we\u2019ll be considered, you know, as\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> (Cuts in) I never saw myself\u2013 You know, I look that\u2013 back at it, Linda, okay? And I kinda look at it, and like, I don\u2019t see myself ever, as really helping, you know.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Oh bull!<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Anybody is like, you know, immediately\u2013<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> You\u2013 that\u2019s\u2013 you\u2013 that\u2019s, again, where I don\u2019t think you see enough faith in you because, uh, Jim wanted you on counsel, and he trusted that you had strength. And he had a lot of faith in you, and you don\u2019t see that\u2013 I don\u2019t think you believe that. That\u2019s what I don\u2019t think. I don\u2019t think you believe that, and I think that\u2019s the problem. And I think that, because you were going to school, you couldn\u2019t do all that you wanted to, either, and a lot of people, Russell and different ones have to concentrate on school, you know? Larry Schacht isn\u2019t even around \u2018cause he\u2019s gotta concentrate on school, you know? And maybe you\u2019re too presumpt\u2013 uh, trying to do something, you know, right now when you were<\/em> preparing, man, you\u2013 you got so useful<\/em>. I\u2013 I\u2013 it seemed to me that when you started coming to the church, and got involved, you got to be a good student, and that you had\u2013 got a maturity, you know, about you. I<\/em> don\u2019t know what you did before you came to church, but I gathered you weren\u2019t that<\/em> successful in terms of completing (unintelligible word) \u00a0career and stuff, right? And it seemed to me that if you had just\u2013 that if you\u2013 whatever you\u2019re doing now, that Jim didn\u2019t seem bothered because he\u2013 he said to you that he\u2019d be glad to, you know, sign the marriage thing, you know. So uh, you may feel<\/em> that there\u2019s a guilt on you because you married someone but, uh, uh, uh, Jim didn\u2019t feel that you should feel guilty about that. The\u2013 the only thing is that you\u2019re\u2013 that you didn\u2019t feel useful<\/em>, you just didn\u2019t give yourself enough time<\/em>. We\u2019re all<\/em> so impatient, you know, \u2018cause you\u2019re studying, you know, and you\u2019re preparing yourself in a field that you could help people of all races, and p\u2013 people in poverty situations. And I know\u2013 uh, my<\/em> feeling about this is there\u2019ll come a time when you will<\/em>, you know, want to, whether it\u2019s now or later, when you\u2019ll see, you know\u2013 I think the emergencies are coming closer, but I\u2013 I think that uh, we haven\u2019t quite had to face the total emergency situation, you know what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> But that, I think as you see more and more things happen<\/em>, you want to uh, help, you know. And that you should\u2013 You know, even if you need to take time, Jim can understand that, if you need to take time to do whatever you need to do, you know. Not that you couldn\u2019t do it and still be in the group<\/em>, you know.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Well, it\u2019s not that uh, you know, I\u2019m any less of a person \u2018cause I\u2019m not in the group because I feel like, you know, I need to help in everyday life.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Like what? What can you do?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> (unintelligible under Linda)\u2013 individual needs.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> (Cuts in) Yeah, but individual\u2013 If things get really bad, what individual thing is gonna do\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Look, what\u2013 what can we do on an organizational basis?<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Well, I mean just the fact that, if someone\u2013 When you go in\u2013 into a courtroom and somebody needs to be rehabilitated, one individual can\u2019t do that kind of thing.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Uh, okay, I realize that.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> You know.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> But like, on a, uh, like, politically, you know, our group. Peoples Temple. What can we do?<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Well, what can you<\/em> do?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Huh?<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> By yourself, what can you do bes\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette<\/strong>: (cuts in) I know, but I\u2019m not asking that. Why aren\u2019t\u2013 why don\u2019t you answer my<\/em> question?<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Well\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> You know like, uh, I\u2013 I\u2019ve been thinking about it, like, as far as politics is concerned, Jim\u2019s smart enough to get into politics.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Well, what do you mean, what\u2013 Run for office, you mean?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah, run for office and do something, on a\u2013 more on a national basis. You see what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Well, maybe you could suggest that to him\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I\u2013 You know, I think that he\u2019s a really smart guy. And I think that, you know, he has more, uh, you know, intelligence to run like, uh, on a political office than on a religious sense. You know, to run\u2013<\/p>\n

Linda<\/strong>: (cuts in) And you think that he could\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> (unintelligible word under Linda) for other\u2013 for other people. You know, for everyone, like, work within the system.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> But look what happened to Martin Luther King.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I know, but would that be\u2013<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Look what happened to\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette<\/strong>: (unintelligible under Linda) that\u2019s the chance we have to take.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Yeah, well, you wa\u2013 you want\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> You see what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Do you think you\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> You know somewhere\u2013<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> You want to take a chance right now?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Huh?<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> I mean do you want that to happen right this minute? I mean it would happen immediately\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Oh, I\u2019m not\u2013 I\u2019m not\u2013 I\u2019m not insinuating him, you know, to be assassinated.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> He\u2019d be glad<\/em> to, I\u2019m sure. He would<\/em> be glad to, I mean, it would be the end of his troubles\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> You\u2019re distorting what I just said. I\u2019m not\u2013 I\u2019m not saying that, for him to do it and get assassinated right now.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I\u2019m not saying that.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> But there\u2019s such an atmosphere of hate, though —<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> (unintelligible under Linda) But he\u2019s smart enough to get involved in\u2013 look it, you know, all the other\u2013 (unintelligible word) like, run for an office. Run for, you know\u2013<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Sure.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> For representative.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> But there\u2019s such an atmosphere of hate<\/em>, Jeanette. It seems to me that that\u2019s kind of romantic notion.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> What do you mean, romantic?<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Well, there\u2019s such an atmosphere of hate, that, I mean, it seems to me that if, what happened in Boston or San Francisco, and stuff like that\u2013 that it\u2019s kind, that, that it\u2019s kind of uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I know, but if he shows his character, you know, he says he has this\u2013 his character, I see his character. If he shows his character m\u2013 more.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> (speaks over Jeanette) You don\u2019t think he\u2019s doing as much now?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> (unintelligible under Linda) \u2013besides just the black<\/em> people\u2013 you\u2013 you know, at the Temple. But show them other phases. Like when a time does occur, there\u2019re people are gonna say, hey, this guy has character. They\u2019re not gonna, you know, just uh, just go ahead and shoot him or something.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> You think people would elect uh, someone like uh, Jim?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Huh?<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> You feel people would elect\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I think that if, you know, if he changes strategy, I think they would. I<\/em> would, and I know other people would.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Well, I mean, I know, he\u2013 he\u2019s, uh\u2013 there\u2019s no reason why they wouldn\u2019t. But the thing is, if we\u2019re in a time that\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I mean like, (unintelligible word) we use it\u2013 we use other things, like, you know, uh, you know, to not completely say that we\u2019re socialist<\/em>, or believe in\u2013 in that thought<\/em>. Like you know, we use religion. Like he could use, uh, uh, uh, you know, being liberal, and then bring in other things. Do you see what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Well, why don\u2019t you tell him this?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Huh?<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Well, why don\u2019t you\u2013 have you told him you felt this way? Have you discussed this with him?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> In a sort of a way, I have.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Well, maybe, I mean maybe he\u2019d appreciate, you know, your telling him this.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Well, you know, I just\u2013 I just feel like he has a lot\u2013 enough character, enough intelligence to run and get more support than what he\u2019s got now<\/em>.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Well, why don\u2019t you\u2013 the thing is again, if you feel that way, wouldn\u2019t you still want to be behind him?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah<\/em>, I would.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Yeah, but only if he runs for office?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> No, not for that. I still support him. I still believe in it.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> But do you think\u2013 You seem to feel\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> (cuts Linda off) I still believe I\u2019m a socialist.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Okay. Okay, but\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Doesn\u2019t make me any less a person<\/em>, \u2018cause I\u2019m not immediately involved in that. I can\u2019t (unintelligible word)\u2013<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> But how do you\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Going to that Temple down here —<\/p>\n

End of side 1<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Side 2<\/strong><\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> \u2013knew him, because the trouble is that people who have criticisms feel scared<\/em> or something of saying, you know, what they feel, or if you feel that he should take a different tact on\u2013 I think he\u2019s weighed all these things. I frankly believe he\u2019s\u2013 you know, weighed all these things and that he\u2019s doing the most courageous thing, because I know he\u2019s not afraid of anything.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> No, I\u2013 I agree with that.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> You know. But the thing is I think he\u2019s weighed these things and he probably could\u2013 could explain why, or, you know, he\u2019s doing what he\u2019s doing, and I think he\u2019d be glad<\/em> to go any\u2013 anything that would help mankind. I think there\u2019s reasons that\u2013 you know, for doing certain things at certain times and stuff like that, for the benefit of the most\u2013 to most\u2013 benefit to the most people, you know.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah, but do you see my point?<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Do you\u2013 I mean, I don\u2019t\u2013 I don\u2019t know if you agree<\/em> with it or not.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> The only thing\u2013 The only thing is that I don\u2019t know that everybody who runs for office does as much\u2013 uh, that much for mankind. Because I don\u2019t\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I think\u2013 I think they\u2019re making an effort. All right. I don\u2019t agree with a lot of them. A lot of them are in it for the money and the prestige. But you know, there\u2019s\u2013 there\u2019re new characters have to come in.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Yeah, but what\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette<\/strong>: (unintelligible under Linda) \u2013and showing them\u2013 (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> I\u2019ve never seen anyone in office that\u2019s done as much as Jim without office. (short laugh) I\u2019ve never seen anyone<\/em> who\u2019s\u2013 who\u2019s\u2013 who\u2019s brought people the, uh, to the sensitivities or put as much effort. If he<\/em> had to go campaigning and all that he\u2019d have to do, and he\u2019d have to have millions of dollars behind him, because you can\u2019t win without money.<\/p>\n

Jeanette<\/strong>: Oh, I definitely agree with that.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> And he\u2019d have to court\u2013 in order to get millions of dollars, he\u2019d have to court people that he would have to compromise his views.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Sure<\/em>, he would. I mean, he would have, you know, kiss ass in some ways, like we\u2013 you know, we have to kiss ass, you know, with the Disciples of Christ<\/em>. You know.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> But he doesn\u2019t kiss ass. He\u2019s telled them\u2013 he\u2019s told them just<\/em> where he stands. And they resent him.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Right, well, in some places, like now, we\u2019re just, you know\u2013 sometimes you just have to tell them where you stand<\/em>.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Mm-hmm. Well, the\u2013 the only thing is, I think you should<\/em> tell him. I\u2013 I frankly feel that he\u2019d like to hear what you feel<\/em> about that, but I mean I\u2019m not saying you have to come and talk to him. The only thing is that\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> No, I will<\/em> come and talk to him. I\u2013 I will<\/em>. You know, like, I\u2019m not uptight about not coming to talk to him about it, because I will<\/em>. In fact, I can come next week<\/em> and talk about it.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Good, that\u2019d be good. Uh, and uh\u2013 The only thing I feel, you know, I just haven\u2019t found\u2013 I mean, you\u2019ve said that you could do something individually. I find that\u2013 that I\u2019m\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I don\u2019t mean on a massive scale. I mean in like everyday practice.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Yeah, but\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Like you know, like, if I work\u2013 I work at a hospital. And like, I do more work than any other nurses aide there. Because I care about those people.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> I\u2019m sure. I know, I\u2019m sure you do. I believe it.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I\u2019m just saying like in\u2013 you know, in everyday practice.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Mm-hmm. Uh, I mean I\u2019m a social worker and I know what you mean, \u2018cause I try to do the same.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Do you see what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> But I notice that, for all<\/em> the little kindnesses I do, people go back in the same<\/em> deprivation, the same<\/em>, uh, uh, confusion, the same insanity. I<\/em> may get my ego built up to think I do<\/em> something.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> But really<\/em>, Jeanette, if you face it, they go back into the same<\/em> insanity. The same persecutions. And what does your kindness mean<\/em>, you know? Can you change\u2013 do you\u2013 can you change their housing, can you change the fact that their babies may never get a proper education or\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> It\u2019s a process. This\u2013 you know like, this\u2013 that you know, like, here in the United States, you\u2013 you know, it\u2019s gonna take a while, I think.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Yeah, but\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I don\u2019t think it\u2019s gonna be in like next year or three or four\u2013<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> I don\u2019t either.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I think it\u2019s gonna be a long time<\/em>.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> But the Temple<\/em> has been able to educate people on a large scale, or help, uh, people on the large scale.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Oh, I agree.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> On a large, you know, uh\u2013 you know, in a large scale in comparison to small groups, yeah.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Or, in a comparison, like, with an individual<\/em> thing. I mean, like, on your own<\/em>\u2013 You know what frustrates me as a social worker. After a while, seeing person after person, and case after case that I realize I can do nothing for, it makes me feel a terrible pain<\/em>, you know. And I think that after a while, what you\u2019ll feel is desperation, because, you know, with the economic situation, it\u2019s gonna get so<\/em> bad\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Oh, I know it is.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> You know what I mean?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> And, what I think is you\u2019re gonna want to have<\/em> com\u2013 uh, camaraderie with other people who are struggling with the problem<\/em>.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Oh, yeah.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> \u2013and you\u2019re gonna be lonely<\/em>, because out there, if you try<\/em> to do as much as you can, and not get bitter, some people can\u2019t do anything and they get bitter, you know what I mean? But if you really keep trying, which I believe you will, I think you\u2019re gonna feel uh, uh, desperate, after a while, because you can do very little. And if you think about all that Jim has planned, you know, for people, uh, a place of refuge and stuff like that, it\u2019s so beautiful<\/em>, that\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah, but, how many\u2013 how many people are gonna be\u2013 Linda, you know, like, basically how many people\u2013<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Thousands.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> \u2013are gonna be able to go there?<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Anyone who wants to. Anyone who wants to.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Huh?<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Anybody who wants to. He has gone\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Are you for\u2013 are you for real? I mean like\u2013<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Yeah. No, for sure.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I thought it was only like a few people gonna go over there.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> No, no, he<\/em> said that\u2013 he<\/em> said that anyone who wants to go<\/em>. But he said many people may not leave\u2013 be willing to go<\/em> because they\u2019re too hung up on, you know what I mean\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> What about like right now? Who\u2013 Who can go right now?<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Anybody who wants to. Thousands.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> If I wanted to go right now, I can go over there and work now?<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Sure<\/em>. I\u2019m sure you could. The thing is that, uh, do you mean right this minute?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I mean go over there and work.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> You want to go right now?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I mean I wouldn\u2019t mind going over there and working.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Well, I think people have tried to\u2013 uh, I mean like I<\/em> wouldn\u2019t ask to go right now because I don\u2019t see what the need of me being<\/em> there is, when there\u2013 they need primarily physical workers. I mean, I\u2019m sure he\u2019d let<\/em> me if I wanted to, but I would never think of asking<\/em> because there\u2019s no\u2013 I mean, my life isn\u2019t in danger right now. And primarily, uh, that\u2019s the reason. I mean, if you wanted to go, we could ask him.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> But I don\u2019t think he\u2019d stop you, if that, you know\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> No, I\u2019m just saying that, you know\u2013 but you know\u2013 But (unintelligible word) can\u2019t.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Yeah, you could, if you wanted to, but\u2013 but I don\u2019t think we do things on the basis of want<\/em>, you know, selfish want or anything.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> No, I\u2019m not saying it\u2019s selfish want.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> But if you had<\/em> to, or if there\u2013 I mean, the whole thing is that you know it\u2019s being, uh, there\u2019s\u2013 uh, all the work that\u2019s going into that is not for nothin\u2019<\/em>, I mean it\u2019s not for Jim<\/em>, because he doesn\u2019t care whether he lives or dies, and he doesn\u2019t even, uh, count on, you know, seeing a future for himself.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> You know that.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> And\u2013 and the thing is that\u2013 I mean it seems to me, anyone who would spend so much of his time building uh, uh, uh, hope<\/em> for people. I mean, \u2018cause, uh, being a politician, I just don\u2019t think he\u2019d be able to, uh, you know, devote his time to the people. You know. Right now.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I think he\u2019d be good at it.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Be good<\/em> at it, he would<\/em>. He\u2019d be tremendous<\/em>, but he\u2019d\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> (unintelligible under Linda)<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> He would not be able to help people because he\u2019d be so busy politicking and then after<\/em>, you don\u2019t just end\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Oh, I know that.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> \u2013winning an office. Because I\u2019ve never\u2013 I just don\u2019t see that, that there\u2019s that much that can be done in that.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> But the way to do it is, like, you know, like, right now, there\u2019s this\u2013 I don\u2019t think there\u2019s any chance of revolution in this country right now.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Well, we\u2019re not asking for that.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Huh?<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> We\u2019re not asking for that.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I know. But that\u2019s\u2013 Oh, Linda, you know that, you know like, we\u2019re gonna do this, like, that you know, like the way we think, you know, in socialism, to have a massive revolution.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> You feel\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> (unintelligible under Linda) we bring, you know, like, the only way he\u2019s gonna do it is by, like, talking to the people who are in charge and manipulating them to see his<\/em> point of view.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> You feel that way. That\u2019s your feeling?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Huh?<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> That\u2019s your feeling that the\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Well, and talk to the masses and let them<\/em> speak, let them choose what they want.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Well, I mean\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> And make Jim the leader.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> You\u2013 I mean, I think you\u2013 you know, have your own views of how, you know, things are gonna go.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Well, I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> But I think, you know, I\u2019m sure he\u2019d be glad to hear what you have to say.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah, well\u2013<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> But I\u2019m sure he\u2019s, you know, thought of all alternatives, you know. And he\u2019s been\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Uh-huh. Well, then, he probably wouldn\u2019t be interested in what I have to say.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Yeah, he would because, uh, I think it\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Well, I wouldn\u2019t be saying anything new. (chuckles)<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Well, no, I mean, maybe you would. You know maybe\u2013 maybe he would, you know, or the dialogue is important \u2018cause uh, he does\u2013 he cares<\/em> about you.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> You know, I don\u2019t have anything against him. I don\u2019t have anything against you.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Well, I didn\u2019t think you would, you know.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I mean I don\u2019t have, but I\u2013 I am pissed<\/em> off, you know\u2013 like, the only thing is, I really liked it up north. I don\u2019t like it down here.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> In S\u2013 In\u2013 Well, maybe that could be\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I don\u2019t like it. (unintelligible sentence under Linda)<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> You mean in San Francisco, or in Redwood Valley?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> You know, in San Francisco and Redwood Valley.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Well, maybe you should\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I don\u2019t like how these people here, they completely distort the whole<\/em> thing.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Well, it is harder down here. It is harder down here. Maybe you ought\u2013 would you be interested in moving back up to the\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Not until I get done with school. I graduate in a year.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Oh. Well, would you be interested in doing that?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know, maybe in a year, I don\u2019t know. (laughs)<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> (laughs) I mean, I<\/em> could understand that, you know. I could really understand that, \u2018cause, I mean, it\u2019s just\u2013 I\u2019m sure it\u2019s more frustrating down here for you, you know. I don\u2019t think\u2013 I think Jim is certainly\u2013 I mean if you\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I was phoning continuously.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> I know, I\u2013 I\u2019m sure Jim is uh\u2013 would be very compassionate to\u2013 to your, you know, uh, thing there, I mean, he\u2013 he really does care, uh, he really cares that people, you know, uh, uh, have lives that they\u2013 that where they can feel meaningful, you know what I mean?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> It uh, uh\u2013 Even though what I said is, you know, that we don\u2019t\u2013 it\u2019s not just a matter of desires, he\u2013 he does<\/em>care that people operate in a place where they can work<\/em> right, you know?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> And\u2013 and uh, he\u2013 he\u2013 uh, he is\u2013 he has felt\u2013 he\u2019s felt confidence in you and trust in you and, uh, you\u2019ve got a lot of capabilities, I bet you\u2019re a fantastic<\/em> nurse. But I do<\/em> feel that, if you hadn\u2019t come to the church, that you might not\u2019ve even found that profession.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Isn\u2019t that true?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Possibly.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> You know? I mean, it\u2013 well, if I weigh my<\/em> life and how chaotic it was before I came the church, you know, I know<\/em> I wouldn\u2019t have been a social worker.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> And uh, everything I\u2019ve learned, you know, really about caring for people has been from Jim\u2019s example, you know?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> And uh\u2013 So when you\u2019re saying doing it individually, uh, in a way even that, you\u2019re not doing it individually, \u2018cause I\u2019m sure that, what you\u2019ve seen here, you know\u2013 You may have seen, uh, people, you know, of all kinds<\/em> here, we\u2019ve got so many<\/em>. But still, I mean, there\u2019ve been enough principled people I\u2019m sure that, you know\u2013 We\u2019ve all affected each other\u2019s lives, and Jim\u2019s been, uh, you know\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Well, I think one of the hard\u2013 one of the\u2013 another ques\u2013 another thing that, you know, like, I\u2019ve told Jim this, that I don\u2019t care about the healings. You know, those things, you know, it doesn\u2019t even turn me on or anything. You know, I\u2013 and like, as far as like re-incarnation, like, I don’t\u2013 I don’t believe in that either. I don\u2019t believe in, I\u2013 I\u2013 you know, I just, you know, like as far as like evolution and different things are concerned, I believe in that. It\u2019s scientific. But I don\u2019t believe in like, you know, these<\/em> things. I<\/em> just care about like, the basic humanitarian things for people<\/em>. And I can see that in Jim.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Well, you can believe in that.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> You see what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> And like\u2013 like all<\/em>\u2013 like, for so long, I used to say how I felt, like when I was at the dorm. I was persecuted<\/em>in those fucking dorms. Like when I say I don\u2019t agree with that. Just because I didn\u2019t agree with what Jim said. You see what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Well, it really isn\u2019t a good idea to say that, you know. It isn\u2019t a good idea to say that, because, other people have<\/em> seen things that are\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Oh, I know, but they are not coming to that (unintelligible word)\u2013<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Why would you need to say it to other people?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> \u2013even that, you know, like re-incarnation.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Well, why would you have to say that to other people, though?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Huh?<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Why would you have to say it to other people?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Like you know, when people be going on and on, I say hey, you know like, instead of maybe they get off into a trip about like talking about just getting involved in the healings or just getting involved in re-incarnation. And they miss the whole point.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Okay, but the thing is, uh\u2013 It\u2019s meaningful\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I say, hey, you\u2019re missing the whole point, why do you believe in that? And so like what\u2013 what\u2013 what happens? You mean\u2013 They say, what do you mean? You don\u2019t believe in it? And so what I don\u2019t\u2013 I don\u2019t\u2013 I keep it inside of me, I don\u2019t say it, I say nothing. And why? If I say it, I won\u2019t be accepted.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> But\u2013 Yeah\u2013 Well, I think you should say what you feel to\u2013 to Jim and to people, you know, who\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I mean, I\u2019ll say it to you, but I couldn\u2019t ever say it to like\u2013 I couldn\u2019t say it to anybody else. I could say it to staff and him. That\u2019s why I wanted to talk to staff last week.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Yeah, right. I didn\u2019t know that. I mean did you\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah, I called there and I was told Christine was gonna come and then I called back after\u2013<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Oh wow.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> \u2018Cause I wanted to get everything, what I was gonna say together.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Then come down and discuss it with him.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Mm-hmm. (Pause) Well, I\u2019m glad we got a chance to talk, that\u2019s for sure. Uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Do you see why\u2013 I mean, like, any of my points. Like, you may not agree<\/em> with them, you may not think they\u2019re valid, but at least I want you to understand like at least what I\u2019m sayin\u2019, and then maybe you can tell Jim too.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Sure.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> And I\u2019ll come up next week and tell him.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Okay. Uh, you mean no\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I mean I\u2019m not gonna go in, like, tell everybody what I think. You know, because I\u2019m not gonna put it down.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Yeah, because, it is a real thing.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> He has a method of a way\u2013 uh, doing things the way he wants to do \u2018em.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Mm-hmm. He has\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> He has his method of doing what he wants to do.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> The\u2013 the thing is sometimes I think that you don\u2019t under\u2013 that some people don\u2019t understand that what he does is uh\u2013 I mean, like, if he sees people get off death row and stuff, I mean. You\u2013 It\u2013 it\u2019s so connected to his\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette<\/strong>: I admire<\/em> that, I really do, I admire that. I\u2019m not putting that down. I admire<\/em> that in him. I really do.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I\u2019ve always<\/em> admired him.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> And, you know one\u2013 one thing I noticed. When I was, uh\u2013 before I came to church, I was an intellectual and I thought, you know, we just talked reality and stuff like that and, you know what I\u2019m saying? That we didn\u2019t deal with uh, uh, people who didn\u2019t talk the same language, and we thought we were so hip, and so, you know, but<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> I think the thing that\u2019s so beautiful about Jim is that he reaches to people, all<\/em> people, you know, and\u2013 and you\u2013 in\u2013 in a way, it seems like you\u2019re judging people who have true faith, you know, \u2018cause\u2013 \u2018cause they\u2019re not as intellectual as you. And in a way that\u2019s kind of, I\u2013 I mean I was\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Being prejudiced?<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Yeah. Because, uh, it\u2019s an assumption that everyone, uh, has the same orientation than you do.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Oh, yeah. Well, I see your point. Good. I\u2019m going to be defensive. (chuckles).<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Go ahead.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Like, uh, I see your point, but there\u2019s like intellectual people on that council in L.A., here. Okay? And like, like, instead of like, uh, them looking at it rationally<\/em>, they wanted to, to continue to believe in a God, but replacing Jim as God. You see what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Linda<\/strong>: Well, the\u2013 the only thing is that, uh, Jim certainly does not uh, imply he\u2013 I mean, if you hear his discussions, he tears that, you know, I mean\u2013 If people\u2013 What you\u2019re saying though is people are not all perfect, you know, and even if\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Oh, and I\u2019m not, either. God. Nobody is.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Okay, but see, your imperfections may be in another area. But Jim certainly does not present\u2013 I mean, he doesn\u2019t stand up there like like, uh, a holy spiritual fly\u2013 you know, uh, you know what I\u2019m saying? And so, uh, you\u2013 if\u2013 any place you go, people have different illusions and stuff like that, and he doesn\u2019t foster them in any way, and there\u2019re a lot of people that aren\u2019t, uh, uh, there that don\u2019t believe in illusions. Although I\u2013 I\u2013 I do say there\u2019s a\u2013 you know, uh, like Lovie De Pina and stuff like that, that\u2013 that is pretty, you know, miraculous<\/em>, I mean there\u2019s no way other\u2013 else to explain it. There\u2019s something<\/em> paranormal. You know what I\u2019m saying? You know what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah, I understand, but I don\u2019t agree with paranormal.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Huh?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I don\u2019t agree with paranormal. But I mean, I agree with what you\u2019re (unintelligible word)<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Well, whatever you call it, it doesn\u2019t matter what you think about it, \u2018cause I mean, if you\u2013 if you were\u2013 you know, if\u2013 if people wanna, if people serve, uh, humanity, it doesn\u2019t matter, you know, what you think about it. But I\u2019m just saying that, you know, I mean, I can\u2019t deny<\/em> it \u2018cause I\u2019ve just seen<\/em> it, but I\u2013 it\u2019s not the basis of my, you know, commitment, you know?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Uh, and\u2013 and\u2013 and I don\u2019t, uh\u2013 It\u2019s not a matter of people needing that, it\u2019s just that, if you\u2019ve seen somebody like Lovie, who\u2013 who, uh, something happened to her, you know. I know it\u2019s meaningful to her, you know.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah, I understand that, yeah, I under\u2013 I understand your points too, I really do.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I mean, I\u2019m just\u2013 you know, I\u2019m just\u2013 I\u2013 I would really like, like, next week to come down and just talk about it, because like a lot of things like from the last couple weeks have really been bugging me, but I know I couldn\u2019t say it because it wouldn\u2019t be accepted.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Well, if you say it to all\u2013<\/p>\n

(Two women speak over each other)<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I could go and talk to him.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> On, I see.<\/p>\n

Jeanette<\/strong>: Because like, after those first two years of the dorm, and what they put me through\u2013<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I\u2013 I\u2013 I didn\u2019t want to trust anybody.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Uh-huh, that\u2019s true.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> And like, you know, I started building up a rapport with someone.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Yeah, right.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> And like you know, I\u2019m just gonna tell you (unintelligible word) what I\u2019m gonna tell you, I\u2019m gonna tell Karen and Christine and Jim.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Okay.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> What\u2013 What my thoughts are.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Okay.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I mean, is that fair enough?<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Sure.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> And I\u2019m not, you know, gonna be hostile, I\u2019m not just gonna go out and write letters or anything else like that.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> No.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> But what I want done<\/em>, too, is that I want Carol to be\u2013 you know, I don\u2019t want you to\u2013 you know, you don\u2019t have to tell my conversations with Carol, but I still want someone to be objective with her.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Sure. Well, I\u2013 I swear, I mean, like, nobody\u2019s torn you down. Nobody\u2019s torn you down to Carol. You can ask Carol, you can ask her any time. We haven\u2019t torn you down. Uh, believe me, I mean, you can uh, ask, uh\u2013 I know Jim thinks highly of you. I<\/em> do. I mean, I think.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> (unintelligible word) You\u2013 You know, you don\u2019t have to, ya know\u2013<\/p>\n

Linda<\/strong>: No, I wanna\u2013 I wanna\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Every time you go on like that, I feel like, you know, you\u2019re just bullshitting me. (unintelligible under Linda)<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> (Speaks over Jeanette throughout) No, I swear, Jeanette. I swear, \u2018cause after I tell you\u2013 No\u2013 No, no, listen! You\u2019re not\u2013 No, listen, on my children\u2019s life, I\u2019ll tell you why. Because, when we talked upstairs, uh, I\u2013 really, when we talked upstairs, I felt, you know, that we had a rapport.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Um-hmm.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> I swear, I mean, that\u2019s not bullshit. You know what I mean?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah, I felt that way too.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Yeah, I did, I mean it seemed real to me, and, uh, I\u2013 I don\u2019t know, in myself, maybe this is an illusion, but I just can\u2019t believe, \u2018cause I know, I feel you\u2019re sensitive. Now that may be wrong. Okay? I may be wrong about you, that could be true.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah, okay.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> I feel you\u2019re sensitive, and I feel that you would understand, that\u2013 that, uh, for black people especially, that we, all of us, uh, you know, uh, even though we may not like it, you know, nobody says we always like, uh, uh, to do things, but that we would care enough about (sighs) working for people who were, uh, really deprived. You know?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah, right.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> And I feel that you\u2019re that way. I think you have\u2013 I think you had it down\u2013 No matter, you know, even if you went through some times when you had\u2013 at\u2013 at the dorms when you felt alienated, that you would uh, care about, you know, black people and stuff.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Um-hmm.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> And that, if\u2013 that\u2013 that\u2013 that you shouldn\u2019t feel that you\u2019re alienated, just because right now you\u2019re not coming. You know what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> And that, uh, nobody would, uh, ever hold it against you or anything like that, and we don\u2019t think you\u2019re doing\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette<\/strong>: Well, I know you wouldn\u2019t, and I know a few people\u2013 (unintelligible under Linda)<\/p>\n

Linda<\/strong>: And Jim\u2013\u00ad But Jim believes in your character.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> But I know other people would. (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Huh?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I know other people would, I know you wouldn\u2019t, but I know other people would.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> (unintelligible word) But man, you can\u2019t base your\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette<\/strong>: But I don\u2019t care about them.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Yeah, right! All right, you know. You can\u2019t base uh, things on\u2013 on, uh, that, I mean, it, uh, but Jim\u2013 but\u2013 but Jim does believe that, that you have character, and\u2013 and he\u2013 he really does, I mean, he uh, saw that in you. You know?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Uh-huh.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> And\u2013 and y\u2013 you\u2013 I don\u2019t know. That\u2019s why I was worried maybe that you had a bad self-image, because that maybe you couldn\u2019t believe that. \u2018Cause what you said right to me that\u2013 that I was bullshitting you, I swear on my children\u2019s life, I was not bullshitting. I swear on my children\u2019s life. You could believe that or not.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> All right.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> All right?<\/p>\n

(Both laugh).<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> I really like<\/em> you. And I know Jim does, and I know, uh, there\u2019re\u2013 you know, maybe there\u2019re a few people that like you.<\/p>\n

(They both laugh)<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> A few.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> You know\u2013 I don\u2019t\u2013 Well, you know\u2013 I\u2019m only saying that because you\u2019re so dubious.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> I\u2019m only\u2013 I\u2019m only teasing with you, Linda.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> I know, \u2018cause you\u2019re putting me in a\u2013 in a bag there. But uh\u2013 You want me to make a list? I\u2019ll present you with a list of how many people like you.<\/p>\n

(Both laugh)<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> It\u2019s cool.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Yeah. Right. Uh, well, anyway, Carol\u2013 Did you want to talk to me any further or what?<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> No, I\u2019ll come in next week.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Well, Carol wants to talk to you first, though.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Okay.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Okay, just a minute.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Okay. Bye-bye Linda.<\/p>\n

Linda:<\/strong> Bye.<\/p>\n

(Pause of several minutes)<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Yeah, are you gonna uh, co\u2013 ma\u2013 next, next couple weeks, so I can see you?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Okay, I also wanted to tell you, that remember when uh\u2013 remember you told me about the marijuana thing?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> And you didn\u2019t want Penny to find out\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> When I talked to Jim, and I felt, you know, for (unintelligible name), I told, you know, Father.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Oh, that\u2019s good.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> But\u2013 But he wouldn\u2019t tell, you know, Penny.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Oh, that\u2019s all right. That\u2019s good that you did.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> And I\u2013 you know, the reason I\u2013<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> If it really makes you feel better, that\u2019s good.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Yeah. \u2018Cause I thought it was bad, because, like if something did happen, like if\u2013 if somebody did tell on you guys that, that Hillman did have\u2013 have it, you know? That if the police did bust it or something, like he would get sent back to Persia<\/em>, you know?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah. Well, you have a good point. Yeah.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> He would just\u2013 he would have that risk<\/em>, you know? And you<\/em> would, certainly.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> For being there, for having possession of it.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Right. Okay. Well, you do what you want to do, you know. You make up your own mind, okay?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Okay, were you gonna go over to Grandma\u2019s?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> But you\u2019re welcome here anytime you want to\u2013 (unintelligible under Carol)<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Were you gonna go to Grandma\u2019s for Christmas?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Huh? Yeah.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Well, we thought maybe we could all go meet at Grandma\u2019s for Christmas.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Well, who?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Grandma\u2019s? You know? Me and Mom.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> No, we\u2019re not\u2013 I\u2019m not gonna go when Penny\u2019s there.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> You\u2019re not gonna go?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> No.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Well, if you\u2019re not gonna go if Penny\u2019s there, maybe I can go.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Yeah, well, I thought maybe if you\u2019d like to, you can come and spend Christmas vacation with me.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Yeah, maybe so.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Huh?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Okay?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Okay, well, I\u2019ll let you go then. (unintelligible under Carol)<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Okay. You\u2019re not gonna be here tomorrow?<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Huh? No, I have to work tomorrow.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Okay.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Okay?<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Okay, nice talking to you.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> So, write me a letter.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Okay, I will.<\/p>\n

Jeanette:<\/strong> Okay, bye-bye.<\/p>\n

Carol:<\/strong> Okay, bye.<\/p>\n

End of tape <\/strong><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you. To return to the Tape Index, click here. To read the Tape Summary, click here. Listen to MP3 (Pt. 1,\u00a0Pt. 2). (This tape was transcribed by Nicole Bissett. The editors gratefully acknowledge her invaluable assistance.) Jeanette Kerns: Good evening. Carol Kerns: Hi, Jeanette? […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":8,"featured_media":0,"parent":27291,"menu_order":433,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-108349","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/108349","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/8"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=108349"}],"version-history":[{"count":3,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/108349\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":123282,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/108349\/revisions\/123282"}],"up":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27291"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=108349"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}