{"id":108352,"date":"2021-02-08T13:34:51","date_gmt":"2021-02-08T21:34:51","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=108352"},"modified":"2023-06-18T11:20:04","modified_gmt":"2023-06-18T18:20:04","slug":"q774-transcript","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=108352","title":{"rendered":"Q774 Transcript"},"content":{"rendered":"

This tape was transcribed by Shannon Howard. The editors gratefully acknowledge her invaluable assistance.<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n

If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n

To return to the Tape Index, click here.<\/a>
\nTo read the Tape Summary, click here<\/a>. Listen to MP3 (Pt. 1<\/a>,\u00a0Pt. 2<\/a>).<\/p>\n

Side A:<\/strong><\/p>\n

Part 1:<\/strong><\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> We all like if we keep cool and relaxed, I\u2019ll say nothing, (clears throat) they say I should say. That\u2019d be the big (unintelligible).<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Part 2:<\/strong><\/p>\n

Mike Prokes:<\/strong> Mike Prokes, P-R-O-K-E-S, and I\u2019m at area 415-922-6418 or if that\u2019s busy, 931-9107.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> Reverend Jim Jones. Okay. I\u2019ll see what I can do for you.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/strong> Thank you.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> Mm-hmm. Bye, bye.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/strong> Bye.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Part 3:<\/strong><\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> \u2013 talk that way over the radio. Then um, I said, and I asked him who that was, (unintelligible) traffic (unintelligible) couple weeks (unintelligible). We also can do only personal<\/em> type of busines. We cannot do things such as um, \u201cwe haven\u2019t received so and so\u2019s records.\u201d<\/p>\n

Woman 4:<\/strong> We can\u2019t do personal business\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Lots of us\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman 4:<\/strong> \u2018Cause small business is personal business.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Well, it has to be like Gene Chaikin, \u201cHi, David [Chaikin], how you doing?\u201d I said, well, what about\u2013 I told him we had this missionary thing, you know, the Disciples and all this stuff, uh, and someone was talking about arrivals like, you know, I\u2019m due in to so and so. That is\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Borderline. (unintelligible under Woman 1)<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Borderline thing, and they prefer an outlying area that\u2019s not even (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Woman 4:<\/strong> So what the hell do you talk about on the radio?<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Just, \u201cHow you doing, how are you, Joe\u201d\u2013 (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Woman 4:<\/strong> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Man 2:<\/strong> Well, what\u2013 what the hell\u2019s the use of us even doing<\/em> it anymore?<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Anything else, well, it\u2019s purely supposed to be a\u2013 you know, like an (unintelligible).<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Yeah, we know that.<\/p>\n

Woman 5:<\/strong> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> Well, what is an alternative area (unintelligible)\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Commercial.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> (unintelligible) solution?<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> As far as they\u2019re<\/em> concerned, we cannot do any commercial traffic. It has to go to commercial lines, in other words, a phone<\/em> or something (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Woman 5:<\/strong> (Unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Man 2:<\/strong> Yeah, what they\u2019ve done is close us down. I mean if we\u2019re ninety percent over power and we cut back, we won\u2019t be able to hear him anyway, will we?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Yeah, we will.<\/p>\n

Man 2:<\/strong> We will?<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> But they\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> It will cut down. Instead of making a contact every day, you might miss one every once in a while and your time won\u2019t be as long.<\/p>\n

Man 2:<\/strong> Jesus.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> But then if you can\u2019t\u2013 You know, if you\u2019re not doing all the business stuff, it\u2019s gonna cut down on your time.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> He did not bring up anything about codes.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Thank God.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> No, I think he could have though, Ben.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I think he could have\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Well, I mean, I think that the\u2013 the context was that he could have broughten that up. \u2018Cause I also asked him, do you have any other recommendations for us, like things he hadn\u2019t brought up. Like we told him, we would lock the room so nobody else can get in it, and (unintelligible) other activities.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I\u2019m not sure whether\u2013 See, I don\u2019t know. We were picked up by Washington, we\u2019re not picked up here locally. I guess. That\u2019s the impression I got. He said Washington said these things ten days (unintelligible)\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> No, no, that was b\u2013 I don\u2019t think\u2013 I think that was when we were asking how they<\/em> were testing us.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> You know, he worked in Washington before.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> And we (unintelligible)\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> That\u2019s because uh, Washington is not a normal\u00ad (unintelligible). They can get out of Kingston, Texas, is<\/em> an FCC place, but\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman 5:<\/strong> They\u2019ve picked us locally too, right?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Well, yeah, because they recorded it, right?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Man 3:<\/strong> So what action are they gonna take?<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Uh, they\u2019re gonna \u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Cut the power.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> We\u2019re to cut the pow\u2013 they\u2019ll be here, they\u2019ll be\u2013<\/p>\n

Man 3:<\/strong> No citation, no fine.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Well, they said they\u2019d be reaching me.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> They\u2019d be reaching you.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> They\u2019ll probably send me a written citation. I don\u2019t know if there\u2019ll be a fine attached to it or not.<\/p>\n

Woman 5:<\/strong> A warning. Yeah, a citation or a warning.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> The two things that they wrote down were no logs, number one, and number two, operator not always present.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Now I think<\/em> he did a good job about the\u2013 you know, the log, like, you said that you\u2019d been keeping one, but, you know, that bit, and he talked with the old regulations. I thought I had to write down all these, you know, technical things. So I think they bought the idea that you had<\/em> kept a log.<\/p>\n

Man 3:<\/strong> That it was taken or missing?<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Well\u2013 just, yeah, (unintelligible word) negligence.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> He even brought it up, he said, well, there\u2019s kids running around all over the place (giggles)<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Yeah\u2013<\/p>\n

Man 3:<\/strong> That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Yeah, they replie\u2013 they could have been a lot more\u2013 they started out more formally.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> What about a uh, radio on a\u2013 in uh, Florida. There\u2019s a phone, a phone that uh, patch, phone patch that beamed away from the States. Does it pick up, pick up?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> They\u2019d pick it up. Florida\u2019s right aligned with Washington. That\u2019s be the worst part about it.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> It goes out both ways.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Basically you\u2019re\u2013 they\u2019re\u2013 they\u2019re gonna hear you. If you\u2019re putting up enough power so you can get good contacts in Guyana, they\u2019re gonna hear you in Texas, they\u2019re gonna hear you in Washington.<\/p>\n

Man 3:<\/strong> Out at Washington, DC?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

(People talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> A very open thing, and anybody can to listen to it. Not only us, Guyana or Cuba. If you\u2019re in Cuba, we can go right over Cuba, we\u2019d be very strong in Cuba. There or, you know, anywhere else, South America, Uruguay, Paraguay, Brazil, you know what I mean, trials in Cuba. (Pause) But as far as they\u2019re concerned, as long as you have an operator there, and you don\u2019t do business, and you\u2019re not over power, he said go ahead and operate. He said we could operate today if we wanted to, he didn\u2019t\u2013 You know, sometimes he\u2019ll say, well, don\u2019t operate until we get back to you, but he didn\u2019t say that, which kinda surprised me.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Man 2:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> What that mean, don\u2019t do business? What does that<\/em> mean? What\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> The business\u2013<\/p>\n

Man 3:<\/strong> You got to just chit chat.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> It\u2019s like\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> We have to deal with\u2013 The amateur radio is supposedly for bullshit, it\u2019s just chit chat, hi, how you doing, the weather is beautiful.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> You didn\u2019t touch \u2018em and tell them about helping kids and feeding people?<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> We told them about it, we said missionary projects use this, you know, it\u2019s very instrumental, they need it. They do run into problems with, for example, Antarctica needs a permanent station. Uh, other people need them, but you can\u2019t have them. That\u2019s not amateur radio.<\/p>\n

Woman 5:<\/strong> When they talked to us, they said that reason is, you know, \u2018cause obviously they give AT&T more money, they said that usually as far as the mission\u2019s concerned, it\u2019s worth it, you know. Just, you know, they\u2019re not saying okay, but they sort of\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible) again, hopefully we\u2019re too far out.<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> Can\u2019t you say something like, \u201cHey, how you doing, how you\u2013 how you eating?\u201d (unintelligible word) shit like that, (unintelligible word) is that considered chit chat?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Yeah, if\u2013 the whole thing you gotta do is just couch it in causal talk. Like I thought one of the best things we ever did was when Paula [Adams] and I, or Paula and Jean Brown, were trying to talk about the last shipment. Jean and I kept talking about\u2013 We\u2019d say, you know, we\u2019ve heard it\u2019s very difficulty getting shipments down there, have you ever\u2013 you know, have you ever had any problems like that? And Paula would say, yeah, one time I\u2013 you know, I had a problem with, you know, I had to have everything listed and I had to have serial numbers, and so she\u2019s giving\u2013 you have the list of serial numbers. And Jean would say, well, you know, I was talking to someone who had done an overseas shipment to, you know, uh, some other country and uh, they had uh, a large shipment, and they had like 49 crates, and they\u2013 and they weighed them and measured them, and they used a certain line out of Texas. And if you do it, you know, you can do it, conduct a lot of information out of it. But the problem is you never really know, you can get off on a wild goose chase and it can screw you up. But as far as doing that, they\u2019re never gonna ding you on that. It\u2019s really hard to do.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> That\u2019s why in headquarters where we got somebody that\u2019s got Paula and\u2013 let\u2019s see, if Paula can handle it (unintelligible). What we really need, is just control a lot of it, both of you at the same time, that\u2019s what I was trying to work out.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> If they\u2013 they can\u2013 they can hear them (unintelligible). Well, it shouldn\u2019t be that much of a problem for us.<\/p>\n

Woman 4:<\/strong> Well, it\u2019s lucky both of their good radios are broken down. They\u2019re using a little tiny one and it doesn\u2019t (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Yeah, we don\u2019t have, we don\u2019t have a radio.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Well, they\u2013 send them another radio, you know.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Yeah, there\u2019s a radio, I saw a radio there. But I\u2013 it must not be\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman 4:<\/strong> That was in Yankton or\u2013 (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

(People talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> They said the problem\u2013 the problem with that radio, \u2018cause when you pick it up, they say it bleeds, it\u2013 it bleeds onto other\u2013 other frequencies, and it doesn\u2019t stay\u2013 stay in transmis\u2013 in transmission. So we tried to get someone to fix it.<\/p>\n

Woman 4:<\/strong> We\u2019re checking into nearby countries to fix it.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know, for like seven hundred and fifty dollars, we can buy a brand new radio and send it over there.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> But\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know, I mean they\u2019re gonna have problems with the radios breaking down. You either gonna have a whole bunch of them over there, or find some way to ship them back here to get \u2018em fixed. Or some other country, Brazil or something. \u2018Cause I can\u2019t fix them (unintelligible). I mean I can tune them up, and they\u2019re not gonna start, when you start talking about tearing down to the bare circuits and stuff, no. I don\u2019t have the test equipment, I just don\u2019t have the knowledge.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Well, some of the stuff you\u2019ve put together (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I\u2013 The only thing I do is connect plugs and plugs and put a ground wire down, and\u2013 well, I built a tower which I\u2019m no mechanical genius by any means, and assemble an antenna. (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible) You did some pretty sophisticated things (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Hmm. Well, that\u2019s not the same.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I mean there\u2019s no way that can be learned.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> The antenna stuff?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> No, I mean the repair of those uh, radios.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Yeah, if you put somebody\u2013 if you get somebody and send them to electronic school for a couple of years, he\u2019ll be able to do it. (unintelligible) But you still\u2013 you don\u2019t have parts<\/em>. The problem is, you can\u2019t get parts<\/em>. Well, if you\u2019re in Guyana and you need a (unintelligible) transistor, you can probably get it here.<\/p>\n

(People talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Well, yeah, you can get \u2019em, but like, we built a transformer out of that\u2013 that one, we\u2019ve got one in the shop being fixed, and it\u2019s been in there for uh, for probably six weeks.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Here?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> You can\u2019t get parts here?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> We\u2019re shipping them from Japan.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> What?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> We\u2019re shipping them from Japan.<\/p>\n

(Microphone moves, unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> (unintelligible) transformer go out, that went out down there because\u2013 I think because when (unintelligible) fluctuates too much, we shorted out something in the transformer and uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Well, we could try to get four or five of the radios in there.<\/p>\n

Man 3:<\/strong> Did you see Christine, Gene?<\/p>\n

Chaikin: <\/strong>Yeah, I saw her before. Ten o\u2019 clock. (unintelligible) ten o\u2019 clock I was downstairs.<\/p>\n

(People talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Chaikin:<\/strong> She\u2019s waiting for you now.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I think going with\u2013 with the tube equipment I think is better, probably it\u2019s easier to fix locally.<\/p>\n

(People talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Well, I bought some older equipment, which was made with tubes instead of transistors to be sent down there. I think that would be maybe more reliable.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Old?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Older, yeah, probably ten or fifteen years old.<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> Can you get tubes or stuff, equipment out.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Uh, it\u2019s getting\u2013 getting tough, I\u2019ve got a complete set of replacement tubes, at least one complete set, there\u2019s only one tube I couldn\u2019t get at least two of, and if I order, you know, if you order it, you can get it, you just might have to wait.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> How long do tubes last?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Years. That\u2019s one of those things (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> In there on the\u2013 in there on the\u2013 the dresser is um, a picture of the place, actually I get good reception. You can see we\u2019re building this mammoth building. The picture that we show, it\u2019s on my dresser.<\/p>\n

(People talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> There might be some more here (unintelligible) It\u2019s locked, it\u2019s locked.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible) It\u2019s a mammoth place and there\u2019s nothing on either side of it. \u2018Cause, you know, in Georgetown (unintelligible) don\u2019t get reception here.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Looks great. No obstructions or anything.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Might get much better reception here (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> The kinda building they\u2019re building down there, they\u2019re really progressing. Now let\u2019s see. Shit, couldn\u2019t want for any more modern equipment. I imagine they all have trade agreements with, of course, Japan, is to the right so they may not (unintelligible). They\u2019re developing a lot of Third World trade agreements. China is bringing in lots of work. But they\u2019re very careful about who they trade with.<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> Have you ever checked on China\u2019s equipment?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> They don\u2019t make it. It\u2019s not available. The only\u2013 Japan makes equipment and the United States has two manufacturers. That\u2019s about it. There may be some European stuff that uh, I\u2019ve never really run across any European stuff. (unintelligible name) is handled in, started out European I think, but they\u2019re now (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> None of the socialist world has (clears throat)\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> No, they don\u2019t usually have ham radios uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Security.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Collins, which is an American manufacturer, you might as well (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Woman 4:<\/strong> Does Brazil have it, because Brazil has ham radio. We get (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Yeah, I don\u2019t know, if that\u2013 I don\u2019t imagine, I just don\u2019t know if there\u2019s very many manufacturers down there. I have never heard of it.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> They\u2019re very funny, but they\u2019re moving to the left. Brazil is moving to the left the last few\u2013 few weeks. Strange kind of happening because of something [Jimmy] Carter didn\u2019t intend, is moving them to the left in their attitude. They\u2013 they (unintelligible) PLO, Palestin\u2013 Palestinian Liberation Organization, now has headquarters in Brazil. Very odd kind of situation.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> That is kind of odd (laughs)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Uh\u2013 and they\u2019re moving to the left, and a lot of the military are talking<\/em> left. But they still have some tight reins.<\/p>\n

(Phone rings)<\/p>\n

Woman 3:<\/strong> Hello?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> [Guyanese economist] Vincent Hinds traveled and exited to, (unintelligible) the northwest province. (unintelligible) military at all.<\/p>\n

Woman 3:<\/strong> Norman\u2019s [Norman Ijames] on the phone.He said you (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> Tell him (unintelligible) thirty minutes.<\/p>\n

Woman 3:<\/strong> He (unintelligible) thirty minutes.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Um, the uh, the uh\u2013 I doubt that at this stage that they would be building radios.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> See, there\u2019s no market for them. The ham radios\u2013 the guys\u2013 there\u2013 there are ham radios there, but usually it\u2019s the guys that are in\u2013 have electronic background or in the government service or they\u2019re talking (unintelligible) and building it from scratch. You know, they\u2019re\u2013 they\u2019re qualified engineers and they can sit down and design a great deal and take, you know, a couple years and gather parts and go. There\u2019s no market. There are very, very weak markets for like manufacturing radios or ham\u2013 ham station. Japan\u2019s been able to do it successfully. The United States really hasn\u2019t. Two companies, their prices are inflated and their equipment\u2019s adequate, but it\u2019s not, considering paying twice the price or something, it\u2019s not that\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> And we need some\u2013 some of the other islands we\u2019re developing we\u2013 This radio thing would be most helpful if we could communicate<\/em> it (unintelligible). Of course we then\u2013 and they won\u2019t bother us there, we can communicate from our post in the Caribbean as we tone down operations here.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Yeah, you\u2019re not involved with the\u2013 (unintelligible word) FCC, the only place involved with our FCC is right here. When you\u2019re in Guyana, they\u2019re more relaxed.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Guyana doesn\u2019t even give a shit, they\u2019ve been very good. We\u2019ve started this\u2013 He said bleeding in was affecting their maritime and their airport and everything else. Something went way, way haywire (unintelligible). You said that he doesn\u2019t like Guyana. What happened to you that you (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I\u2013 it\u2019s not that I don\u2019t like Guyana.<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> Is it \u2018cause they started makin\u2019 money and shit? (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> No, I think it was that before. I was really ready to go, but I didn\u2019t wanna\u2013 Uh, I thought it was a bad time when I\u2013 when I was working at Masonite. I\u2013 I was (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> This is the worst time\u2013 this is the worst time. It\u2019s strange.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> You were ready to go then?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Yeah, I didn\u2019t. If\u2013 I\u2019ve been thinking about it for a long time and uh, I would\u2019ve gone there but then I thought, hmm, things are getting really (unintelligible word), so I\u2019ll stick it out until everybody\u2019s gone so they got radio communication, then I\u2019ll check out what I wanted to do.<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> You know, to me it sounds kinda strange, \u2018cause I remember in PC, you\u2019re talkin\u2019 about the job you were in was very, very dangerous.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> In (unintelligible word)\u2013 In Masonite?<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> Masonite.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Yeah, that\u2019s why I wanted out of it.<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> And\u2013 and now you have a easier job, and\u2013 and it\u2019s not so dangerous\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I know but this\u2013 Go ahread.<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> Just a second, just\u2013 just a second. And it\u2019s not so dangerous. And I really think you oughta look at yourself, because you weren\u2019t there when he had a heart attack and a stroke, and he couldn\u2019t use his whole left side. And you\u2013 you know what, in all that time if you\u2019ve had a chance to look at yourself and reflect and\u2013 and rev\u2013 and review some down\u2013 down to earth thinkin\u2019 and you mention about (unintelligible) and about (unintelligible), and I don\u2019t ever remember you doing none of that shit.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I never did.<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> So, so you know like for you to throw that kind of stuff out that you didn\u2019t understand this or you didn\u2019t want to get involved in that kind of stuff, I don\u2019t understand it.<\/p>\n

(Pause)<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> And the last thing, while we were over there, he\u2013 he\u2013 he talked about how he felt about you, and you let him down.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Well, that\u2019s uh, elementary but, what are you driving at?<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> I\u2013 I just\u2013 I\u2019d just like for him to, to\u2013 to think about all this stuff. He, he\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I don\u2019t think I\u2019m doing anything (unintelligible), John. I don\u2019t think I\u2019m doing anything (unintelligible) by a long shot. You know\u2013<\/p>\n

(People talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I am trying to\u2013<\/p>\n

Man 8:<\/strong> Well, what do you want out of life?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> What\u2013 I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> What are you doing, that\u2019s what I\u2013 that\u2019s what we want to know.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> That\u2019s what I want to know.<\/p>\n

Man 9:<\/strong> Can I ask you a question. Do you feel that you have the right to leave?<\/p>\n

(Pause)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know. I don\u2019t know what rights I have.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Do you think you have the right to answer that question?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Sure. Sure, I have the right to leave. I have the right to (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Man 9:<\/strong> On what basis\u2013 on what basis do you have the right to leave?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Hold it, hold it, hold it. Based on so many people who are in misery out in the world, world (unintelligible word), by even our government\u2019s admission, two out of three (unintelligible) because you have to constantly impress. People don\u2019t hear, then they don\u2019t hear. What do you\u2013 why do you think you have any rights? Why do I have any rights to do anything? As long as our brothers and sister are suffering as they are. How do we get above zero? I\u2019ve never been able to get above zero, like the moment that\u2013 that (unintelligible name), mentioned before the uh\u2013 the tragedy of having to come back here, and the heartbreaking disappointment. I couldn\u2019t enjoy the most beautiful ocean in the world I\u2019ve ever seen, because I knew people here were not able to enjoy it.<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> You follow what I\u2019m saying.<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> How do you\u2013 how do you\u2013 how do you give yourself rights in a world where some people don\u2019t even have the right to eat?<\/p>\n

(Pause)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Hmm?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Like anybody else does, I just take them.<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> Everybody else don\u2019t take them.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Did you ever see me take them?<\/p>\n

Bowers: <\/strong>I\u2013 I\u2013 I know you have.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> And you (unintelligible) you work with people that haven\u2019t taken (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I know, and I haven\u2019t taken a few of mine, you know\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I know you have.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I\u2019ve sacrificed a few of mine. (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> That\u2019s why I believed in you, that\u2019s why I believed in you. That\u2019s why it disappointed me so. Damn<\/em> near killed me, you just damn near killed me.<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> That\u2019s the truth.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Which would\u2019ve been hard in the terms of the oth\u2013 other people. It would\u2019ve been a blessing for me. But it would\u2019ve been hard in terms of the people who needed me.<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> Why do you want take them at such a time now, when they know, you know, you know motherfuckers need a radio and shit and an operator. So, you know, like you gonna stop all of these other people. That\u2019s what you gonna to be doing, if you take it now.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Um, I\u2013<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> (unintelligible) shit (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I think we can work out something. I mean I\u2013 I\u2019m not trying to, you know, cripple the organization by any means at all. That\u2019s why I wanted to stay but\u2013 I\u2013 I find\u2013 I don\u2019t feel that uh, fine, I can sit here and say I\u2019m gonna stay, but I won\u2019t. If I\u2019m in here, people know I\u2019m out, and I feel uncomfortable, which is the way I feel and obviously the way anyone<\/em> would feel. I can\u2019t say\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> (unintelligible) hold on.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Okay, this is\u2013 When I make up my mind, you know, it\u2019s pretty much made up, and I will not argue, you know. That\u2019s what I did in PC. Fine, you want to say that? I may agree, I may not. Fine, I\u2019ll tell you if I agree. Great. And that\u2019s\u2013 You know, the way I get along, I don\u2019t\u2013 I don\u2019t like doing it, but that\u2019s just what I adapted to doing. And uh\u2013 so what I\u2019m saying, is I do not want to cripple your organization. I\u2013 you know, let\u2019s try to work something out, let\u2019s see what we can work out with the radio, but uh, I cannot come back to the group.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Why?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I do not feel I can go back to the group.<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> Why?<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Why?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Why? Because I\u2019m uncomfortable.<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> You say everybody know, don\u2019t nobody know shit.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Well, I<\/em> know. I\u2013<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> But you\u2019re not everybody.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> You haven\u2019t lost (unintelligible word).<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> (unintelligible) and there\u2019s a lost face thing I\u2019m hearing in you.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Yeah, yeah, that\u2019s it. And I just, you know\u2013 it\u2019s like constantly flaunting something that I\u2019ve done and I don\u2019t respect myself. It would be very nice for me to go out and\u2013 and give my life for a noble cause, but it just\u2013 you know, it just doesn\u2019t look right now I\u2019m up to that.<\/p>\n

Woman 4:<\/strong> Well, do you not respect Jane Mutschmann? Do you\u2013 how do you feel about Jane Mutschmann? Do you walk around and say, \u201cOh, this is the traitor,\u201d all the time?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I respect the hell out of Jane.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Why?<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> Well, she walked out.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I know she did.<\/p>\n

Woman 4:<\/strong> So why, why are you isolating yourself. Nobody doesn\u2019t respect Jane.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Jane walked out publicly. Everybody in the world knows where she was going.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I know.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> The reason we have a teacher is because we\u2019re not perfect. We\u2019re not expecting you to be. We\u2019re expecting you to try<\/em> to be.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I\u2019m not\u2013 Well, uh\u2013 Okay, that\u2019s fine. I could come back if I was back, right? Okay, I feel Jane is here.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Okay, and if I\u2019m not here, and yet I\u2019m still walking around pretending to be, that\u2019s hard. I\u2019ve done<\/em> that, you know, like I\u2019ve tried to separate, you know, like okay, I\u2019d like to leave now, no, I\u2019ll stay or, you know, I\u2019ll stay, uh, till things get squared away, and I\u2019ll leave somehow or another. And that\u2019s hard to do, and it\u2019s very frustrating and it\u2019s\u2013 it\u2019s just very hard to do. It\u2019s not an easy thing to do by any means.<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> Yeah, but you see, you haven\u2019t yet took into consideration, if it wasn\u2019t for them little old ladies down there that you<\/em> would be stopping. They<\/em> the ones that pushed you into this, in this fucking fear you got, where you\u2019re making this big paper. So you owe \u2018em more than that, just to get to makin\u2019 paper and just say fuck it.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Naw, it\u2019s\u2013<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> And that\u2019s what you saying.<\/p>\n

Woman 5:<\/strong> The way you\u2019re talking is, you\u2019re\u2013 you\u2019re better than everybody else here. You\u2019re better than the black people\u2013 the little black mother that\u2019s worked twice as hard as you have to earn half or a quarter as much money, and you\u2019re saying that it\u2019s okay, I have a right to go out and live my own life and make my own money and be comfortable, and they\u2013 they don\u2019t, and it\u2019s just that way, because we\u2019re all born that way, and it just happened. Since that\u2019s the way it is, and I\u2019m gonna take life just as it is, you\u2019re saying it\u2019s all right. It\u2019s all right for injustice to exist because it does.<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> And\u2013 and you have no\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> What are\u2013 what are you getting in return for it? What do you get in return for it? What do these guys uh, that you live with, what\u2013 what, what is the, what is the uh, association stimulation of living with, uh, three other guys? What uh, what uh, what do they offer your life.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Well, nothing, I mean they\u2019re just\u2013 that is just\u2013 that\u2019s just somebody to share the rent.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Well, they look like\u2013 I know what they look like (unintelligible word). One of them\u2019s very narcissistic, uh, very self-centered, very unfriendly.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Well, I didn\u2019t have any choi\u2013 I\u2013 I just said, look, I need a place to stay, and he said come over, we\u2019ll split the rent.<\/p>\n

Woman 5:<\/strong> Where\u2019d you meet him.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> San Francisco (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible) where down to earth real people, isn\u2019t it. (unintelligible) and paying you.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Yeah, it\u2019s no\u2013 I\u2019m not going out there to be, you know\u2013 I\u2019m not expecting (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> You\u2019re the guy, you\u2019re the guy that uh, talks about things that are I remember uh, utilizing my mind. Uh\u2013 You\u2019re the guy talks about how to blow up a light bulb will destroy a house, you think in things, terms of uh, severe measures that one must face with oppression. Get a timer, that could have been beneficial, I remember, that\u2019s some of the things that go through my mind.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Why, have you suddenly changed from this guy\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> (Sigh) Boy, I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> \u2013willingness to put your soul out there and your body, and then all of a sudden, now you\u2019ve found something that\u2019s captivating.<\/p>\n

(Pause)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> (Sighs) I don\u2019t know. Time? (unintelligible word) Feeling a little threadbare, I don\u2019t know. I\u2013 I mean in terms of\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> You used a term. It\u2019s a strange thing, that you people who often want to deviate from the course of discipline, which is heavy. I know it\u2019s heavy. Uh\u2013 Oh, how heavy, I know it\u2019s heavy. But I\u2019ve always known something far heavier, and that\u2019s disappointment<\/em>. That\u2019s far, far more heavy. To know that you let down people. And you have the ideal time, that you\u2019ve not let<\/em> down people yet. Nobody\u2019ll know it. If I were in your position, I know what I\u2019d do. Um, anyway um, Harriet [Tropp] said \u201cadapt,\u201d you people keep using that word adapt and uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I thought (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> And uh, Harriet\u2013 Harriet is the one who\u2019s made one of the most dramatic adjustments. Unfortunately, she had to be so honest in talking terms of adapt because I\u2019ve heard that word more and more.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Well, that\u2019s just\u2013 I mean that\u2019s just the way I uh, just adapted or adjusted uh\u2013 I mean it\u2019s not easy<\/em>. I do not, I\u2019m not a very good liar in a lot of ways and, you know\u2013<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong> You\u2019re neurotic.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> There have been a lot of questions asked me, and it\u2019s been\u2013 not been easy for me to, you know, not give a truthful answer, to hide my emotions and\u2013 But, you know\u2013<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> Ben, you\u2013 you\u2013 you\u2013 you say that you really started planning about this shit when you figure you was gonna get trapped over in the prom\u2013 uh, you know in the PL [Promised Land] okay. That\u2019s what you said earlier.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Hmm, no, I just (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> But it seems to me that this is more about the money, it\u2019s more about the money. You like being able to travel, you like driving in a new car. You like the shit, you like the circus that you\u2019re traveling in, you\u2019re making big paper, you got American Express, Bank of America card or whatever kind of shit you got. You can eat way more and do what you want. I think that\u2019s it, you know. But what you said\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> No, uh, that might be. I just\u2013 I know, I\u2013 you know, I\u2019m not kidding you, that\u2019s interesting. And you know that\u2019s fun, for a little while. You know I figure I\u2019ll get bored with that in about a month, probably.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> What are you gonna do then?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> And I knew that, \u2018cause everybody else is bored. All the other guys I work with, they don\u2019t, you know, they just stay home, they have, you know, they keep quitting (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> So you, yeah, but you talking about that fucking month.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> What\u2019re you gonna do?<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> You talking \u2018bout that fucking month, but the night comes when our communication these black\u2013 you stopped all these black people from having ears, a lot of children from having a livable fucking life. Just because you wanna try a fucking month.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible) you\u2019re considered one of the most stable people.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know. Well, I mean, I did<\/em> maintain the station up here.<\/p>\n

Man 8:<\/strong> No, Ben, the thing is that, because over a period of years, you\u2019ve participated in this, you\u2019re responsible<\/em> for it. Just like everybody in this room has the responsibility that they\u2019ve created by their participation. And you\u2019ve got to think an awful long time before you can throw that responsibility away, because you\u2019re going to throw yourself away with it. Because that\u2019s the only thing you\u2019ve got in your life is your integrity as a human being.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Well, that\u2013 see\u2013 I\u2013 that\u2013 that\u2013 I have lost my self-respect. Okay. I have lost my self-integrity. Somewhere along the line\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> What\u2019d you do? What\u2019d you do?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Shit, the first time we stepped on the radio. Like I said I gotta work on the radio, and I can\u2019t do this, and it was a lie, and I did that to get out of work and I wasn\u2019t there. \u2018Cause I had a niche. That\u2019s when I lost my self-integrity.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible) on the radio?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> No, when I got into it. I was working in prin\u2013 printing press with Deanna [Mertle] because one thing, we didn\u2019t have any printer, so I\u2013 I was working on the printing press, so then they\u2013 you came and (unintelligible word) me to the radio. Well\u2013 So that was going to be my project, so I started saying to Deanna, look, you gonna have to find someone else to work on the press, \u2018cause I hated working on the press. So she started training [Tim] Clancey, and I started working on the radio. At the time I liked<\/em> it, I liked working on the radio, it was\u2013 it was like fun<\/em> and I was very suspicious of it and I thought, God I\u2013 I\u2019d like this, I enjoy it, there must be something wrong with it. And uh, I used it as an excuse to get out of something I knew<\/em> that I definitely<\/em> didn\u2019t like. I don\u2019t, you know\u2013 To me the radio\u2019s no longer any fun but uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I\u2019ve used it for\u2013 I mean it\u2019s just like a crutch, it\u2019s like anything else. If you work in the (unintelligible) you can say, well, I got to go be in the (unintelligible) or I could you know, I\u2019ve gotta, you know, I gotta get on the early bus to get to L.A. for this or that. To me that\u2013 to me that\u2013<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> How did that cause you to lose all your self-respect?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> It just did<\/em>, because I was lying and I (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> What do you mean you were you lying?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> To myself, to others. (unintelligible) To hard working people that I respected.<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> But do you know what, you know what (stumbles for words). You\u2019re only looking at half\u2013 at half the\u2013 the problem. The other\u2013 and\u2013 and the solution is what was the end result and what will the end result be of your endeavor? Not\u2013 Not if you do offering.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> That\u2019s a good question. That\u2019s a good question.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> How many times do think I\u2019ve walked in wanting to commit suicide, Ben, how many times did I lose self-respect? Thoughts\u2013 thoughts don\u2019t make one uh, lose self-respect. How many times I\u2019ve wanted to do various things to ease myself (unintelligible word) depression, but I didn\u2019t. So you did uh\u2013 you say you got out of some work. Well, a number of people here has got out of some work.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I\u2013 I know. It\u2019s not that bad.<\/p>\n

(Woman coughs)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> But uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> The thing is, it makes me unpredictable, unpredictable to myself and unpredictable to others.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible) How unpredictable\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman 4:<\/strong> You\u2019re only as unpredictable as you want to be, Ben, you\u2019ve got\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I know<\/em>, but I am, I am. You cannot count on me, you cannot count on me, and that\u2019s the damn truth.<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> Why?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Why? We did for a long time?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Well, \u2018cause that\u2019s the way it is, and you did for a long time and you could, and you could up till, you know, I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n

Woman 4:<\/strong> Up till when?<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> Until you got the job, until\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> No, shit, six months ago, maybe even longer.<\/p>\n

Woman 2:<\/strong> That\u2019s when you were looking for a job. You were out looking for jobs somewhere?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Oh yeah, I was\u2013 I didn\u2019t\u2013 well, at the time I didn\u2019t think I wanted to leave Masonite, I didn\u2019t like Masonite, but I didn\u2019t want to come down to the city, I don\u2019t like the city.<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> But now you wanna stay in the city.<\/p>\n

Woman 2:<\/strong> Now you\u2019re staying\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> But now you\u2019re staying.<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> You, you\u2019re so (unintelligible)\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> You know, I\u2019m not going out there because I like that job or like the city, okay?<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> So why you want\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I am not doing that.<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> Tell me again, why are you\u2013 why are you doing this?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I know it\u2019s\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman 2:<\/strong> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I\u2019ve got to understand this business, \u2018cause I\u2019ve got to make (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I guess it\u2019s \u2018cause I\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman 2:<\/strong> Well, you\u2019re saying anybody\u2019s standing here could walk out the next moment.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> If you\u2019re like me<\/em>, you could.<\/p>\n

Woman 2:<\/strong> You give all the right answers until they walk out the door, is what I\u2019m hearing you say.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> You mean you would do that?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Obviously people have<\/em>, and maybe everybody can. I don\u2019t know that.<\/p>\n

Woman 2:<\/strong> But\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> That\u2019s something you don\u2019t have to\u2013 you know, something that\u2013 As far as I\u2019m concerned, people are changeable.<\/p>\n

Woman 2:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> It\u2019s one thing\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman 2:<\/strong> No, wait, no. wait, no, you\u2019re saying they\u2019re not.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> You don\u2019t believe\u2013 You don\u2019t believe in Marxist perfection then, you don\u2019t believe it can be reached or attained.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know. But as far as I\u2019m concerned, people are changing.<\/p>\n

Woman 2:<\/strong> Then why can\u2019t you change?<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> You\u2019re\u2013 yeah, you say that on one side, that you can change from being here, to going over here, but at the same time, you just told us that you can\u2019t come back here<\/em>.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Well, that\u2019s right now, that\u2019s why I\u2019m saying, I\u2019m not saying (unintelligible word), you know, eternity but\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Now what is this (unintelligible word) right now? You\u2019re telling me that uh, you don\u2019t like the city. You\u2019re telling me you don\u2019t really like the urban life, and yet you\u2019re here smack ass in the middle of it. You tell me that you have good sense \u2013 it shows \u2013 that you could see others who see how empty it is (unintelligible). And you\u2019re willing to loo\u2013 cause everybody a loss<\/em> of face, your leader a broken heart over you. It\u2019s what happened. It\u2019s what really happened, \u2018cause I\u2019ve literally had a heart attack within just a matter of two or three hours after the\u2013 the situation hit me. Of course there are a lot of things that per\u2013 perhaps that built up to it, but you\u2019ve had a hell of a stroke on me. Uh, you\u2013 Are you really gonna risk all those things, doesn\u2019t\u2013 do you not\u2013 do you\u2013 do you hate<\/em> me\u2013 do you dislike me, do you dislike people (unintelligible)?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I can\u2019t follow you as a leader for one thing.<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> Why?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Why?<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Why?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> And that\u2019s just the way it is.<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> Why?<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Why?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I\u2013 resentment.<\/p>\n

(Sound of door opening)<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> Resentment for what (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> For the\u2013 you know, you\u2019ve been a competent leader, you\u2019ve made me do things that I didn\u2019t want to do, for\u2013 for the best, but there\u2019s still that resentment there.<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> But you know it\u2019s one thing\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> And I guess maybe that\u2019s because I have an exalted opinion of myself.<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> Well, wait a minute (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible) into a person\u2019s life. That\u2019s what makes a good leader, is one that can be\u2013 who can take the hate. Everybody has moments of hating me.<\/p>\n

(People talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Right, I\u2013 I know that. I know it\u2019s not an isolated (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

(People talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible) I don\u2019t understand, I\u2019m not getting anything out of the pain so, you don\u2019t have anything\u2013 you don\u2019t have anything to be resentful of, you see, if you really stop to think, you\u2019re not being\u2013 you\u2019re not using that good mind. You resentful of me and all my pain?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I\u2019m not resentful of your pain.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Oh, you see, you see, you\u2019re not really thinking, Ben. I\u2019m miserable, being decent, but I\u2019m less<\/em> miserable than I would be being indecent. (unintelligible).<\/p>\n

(Pause) (Microphone moves)<\/p>\n

(People talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Okay, I understand what you mean, but you know, that\u2013 that if\u2013 that\u2019s the way you feel.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> You\u2013 you see, you must think I get something out of life, the\u2013 the uh, position, the power or the trip or something that you would have in mind. You must think I get something out of this. So is that\u2013 ?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> No, I don\u2019t think\u2013 I don\u2019t think you get any\u2013 I don\u2019t\u2013 I\u2013 I don\u2019t know. You\u2013 you\u2013 you\u2019re a mystery to me. At first I thought I knew you and then it just\u2013 I\u2013 I don\u2019t know. I just don\u2019t know, I just\u2013<\/p>\n

(People talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I thought I under\u2013 I\u2013 I\u2019m trying to think of an example but\u2013 (Pause). Um. Like the deal with the night\u2013 the night we almost, we\u2013 you know, took poison.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> Totally.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Uh-huh, uh-huh.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> That just, I thought\u2013 (Sighs) (Pause). I just didn\u2019t understand. I\u2013 I\u2013 I don\u2019t know. I\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Why don\u2019t you understand this?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> (Sighs) I thought, this is pretty obviously a put-on. Now, if I get up and say I think it\u2019s a put-on, you\u2019re going to react and you know, in a very\u2013 you\u2019re gonna\u2013 you\u2019re gonna try and, you know, support the put-on. And I thought, well, I don\u2019t want to do that, \u2018cause that\u2019ll hassle him. Uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Yeah, it could.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> You know, that\u2019s gonna cause a lot of\u2013 I\u2013 you know, I just thought, I don\u2019t want to break down your leadership in front of people neither, and I thought doing that would be supporting that thing. Uh, so I\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I did not expect\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> So that puts me into the position of, okay, I don\u2019t<\/em> believe it but I\u2019m gonna go along with it. Which is totally\u2013 which is\u2013 Pardon me?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t always expect very many people to believe it. There were a few that I was trying to get to test their fiber.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Well, see\u2013 That\u2019s\u2013 That\u2019s what I\u2013 you know I just thought\u2013<\/p>\n

Man 9:<\/strong> You went along with it. When you started saying you went along with it, which is obviously totally what?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Uh.<\/p>\n

Man 9:<\/strong> Let him finish. You went along with it, which\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> It\u2013 you know\u2013 it threw me into a quandary I just didn\u2019t know what to do. I didn\u2019t know, should I respond positively, tell you how I think it\u2019s a put on? \u2018Cause if I, you know, sit here and hide my feelings, again, and uh, go along with it and then, you know, get up and say, well, I thought I was gonna die and I was happy to die for the cause and\u2013 and\u2013 and uh, uh, in order that, you know, someone else who we\u2019re trying to flush out or something or oth\u2013 I, you know, I don\u2019t know why exactly it\u2019s being done<\/em> but you know\u2013 (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

(People talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t know, you know like\u2013 shit. You know, here I am and we\u2019re gonna spend two<\/em> hours, and I\u2019m gonna be lying the whole time, and I will learn nothing and\u2013 you know.<\/p>\n

Man 9:<\/strong> Well, if it\u2019s for the benefit of others.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Benefit, no. Is this for me? You know, is this for me or is this\u2013 Who is it for? I don\u2019t know, you know.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> Whatever the shoe fit.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Two hours\u2013 what\u2019s two hours in your life, you know, son, (unintelligible word), just do what I wanted to do.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I think as far as I, you know I don\u2019t know what\u2013 I don\u2019t know what you\u2019re trying to do, I\u2013 Were you trying to flush out Patty [Cartmell]? I don\u2019t know. I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> She\u2019s grown considerably. She had to come to terms with that death, fear of death.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I\u2013 I don\u2019t know. That\u2019s what\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> But are those two hours any quote \u201cmore wasted\u201d\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> No, it wasn\u2019t, because of that two hours, you know.<\/p>\n

Woman 1: <\/strong>\u2013 than what you\u2019re gonna do two hours tonight when you get off work? I mean, are those more meaningful to you or something?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> No, never mind the question, never mind.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> This is why I\u2019m saying, this is why I have a hard time, you know. I just don\u2019t\u2013 I can\u2019t follow you any longer.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Here you\u2019re telling me something bizarre. You can\u2019t follow me any longer<\/em> because of a uh, a issue that occurred (unintelligible word) a year and a half ago?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> No, that\u2019s just an isolated incident. I\u2019m gonna (unintelligible) I\u2019m just trying to\u2013 I was trying to pull for an example.<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I can\u2019t\u2013 You know, there was another time when I said, because of this incident, this. This is a long drawn-out (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> What it seems like.<\/p>\n

(People talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible) trying to find out, what the hell is it you can\u2019t follow me for?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Uh\u2013<\/p>\n

(Pause)<\/p>\n

Man 9:<\/strong> Well, then\u2013 then how would you do it different, Ben, how would you do it different if you\u2019re (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know\u2013 I don\u2019t know whether there is<\/em> any different way I would do it.<\/p>\n

Man 9:<\/strong> Is there a better<\/em> way, would you do thing\u2013 uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> (Sounding frustrated) I don\u2019t know. Hell, why are you trying\u2013 you know I just don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Okay, Ben, okay, what are\u2013 what are some of the things that you\u2019re having\u2013 you\u2019ve had problems with? In your immediate lifestyle, say? Or things that you think he\u2019s asking\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I\u2013 You know, I\u2019d kind of like to sit here and not have to into L.A. I don\u2019t like going on the bus the same thing everybody else doesn\u2019t like to do, you know.<\/p>\n

(People talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I mean, you know, I don\u2019t like to get on a crowded bus and go to L.A. which you know\u2013<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> When was the last time you went to L.A. on a crowded bus?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Is whenever I could not avoid it, that was the last time I went (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

(People talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> \u2013 four or five months ago.<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> You did a lot of (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Yeah, I had a reason I worked on Saturday.<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Okay, what else, though?<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> But still\u2013 I still wonder, you know, why you can\u2019t follow him<\/em> no more, you know, \u2018cause he\u2013 All this shit, it sounds like bullshit to me when you first say you had to lie to people but you\u2013 Wait, wait a minute, motherfucker. When you say you had to lie<\/em> to people that you respected such as Deanna Mertle. and then you\u2019re going with this kind of motherfucking shit and obviously you know what she\u2019s doing and has done. So it makes me very suspicious of you going<\/em>out, when you throw a statement out like that.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Oh, you think I\u2019m going\u2013<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know what the fuck a motherfucker\u2019ll do.<\/p>\n

(People talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I don\u2019t have any clear cut answers for you, I really don\u2019t.<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> You<\/em> say you<\/em> don\u2019t know what the fuck you\u2019re gonna do, how in the fuck do you expect us to know?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> That\u2019s a good point. You just said you can\u2019t depend on (unintelligible word).<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> That\u2019s true.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> What degree does that\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I mean, I\u2013 I wasn\u2019t expecting you to depend upon me, you know.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> What degree does that mean, what do you mean by that? (Pause). Can we not count on you to hurt black people by conniving with agencies?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Oh, I think you can count on me for that.<\/p>\n

Man 9:<\/strong> You think?<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> You think, you don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n

Man 9:<\/strong> Geez, where does that leave us?<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Why can we depend on you not to do that, as far as you\u2019re concerned, for what reason? Why would you do it?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Why would I do it?<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Uh-huh.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> \u2018Cause I think it\u2019s wrong.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Why?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Why?<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> I mean if it happens it happens, the nihilist view is, if it happens it happens. (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I\u2019m sorry I ever brought the word nihilist up.<\/p>\n

Man 9:<\/strong> Yeah, I\u2019ll bet.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Well, yeah, I mean it\u2019s not used intellectually correct but I\u2019m saying\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I haven\u2019t used it in a long time.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Whatever you wanna\u2013 I don\u2019t care what word you call it\u2013 Really, I mean, what I\u2019m saying\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> No, I\u2013 I know\u2013 I know if it happens, you know\u2013 if it happens it happens but\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> If an agent comes up to you, why\u2013 you know, why not talk to him.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> Says we\u2019d like you to testify da-da-da-da-da-da-da.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Well, just give me a little information. Why not?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I\u2019m not going to.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Why?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Why?<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Because it\u2019s not that\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Why not?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I like Peoples Temple, I like a lot of things instilled here, and I really support it, but I\u2019m just saying, I just can\u2019t\u2013 at this point, I just can\u2019t function. All right?<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> No, that, yeah, but I still want to (unintelligible word) the other thing. That\u2019s still\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019m not saying that, you know\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Is that all you feel just like?<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Just like\u2013 That\u2019s all you can feel for an organization (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Well, that\u2019s about as deep as my emotions go. I mean I\u2013 If you want to talk about love, I mean uh, that\u2019s\u2013 love is a funny thing for me.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Well, I know that, I\u2019ve\u2013 I\u2019ve been greatly disappointed with the number of people that I can see that are not capable of love.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> So uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> But uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Man 9:<\/strong> What about respect?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I respect you (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> What are some things you don\u2019t\u2013 you\u2013 you\u2013 you don\u2019t respect and you don\u2019t like about it?<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> Things that you<\/em> have to done, not things you have gotten out of.<\/p>\n

(Pause)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Some of the things I don\u2019t<\/em> respect?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Well, (unintelligible) it\u2019s the honesty that stuck with me and I have no ego at all. You said that you lost faith in me<\/em>or (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> For what, for what? (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Pull out one thing which I have very good reasoning for. That I\u2019m\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I\u2013 I just\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I\u2019m just a li\u2013 I\u2019m just a human leader ,and that makes me even that much more munificent, because I want to have peace and rest and quietude and isolationist (unintelligible word) type of existence. And I don\u2019t<\/em>. I persevere and discipline myself. I\u2019m not a sadist, I\u2019m not a masochist, so in fact I endure and carry on. (unintelligible) an area where I\u2019ve made a mistake. Other than the risk<\/em> involved. I mean, I did what I had to do. I would not have been able to gotten it any other way. Once I\u2019ve triggered somebody else into getting out of our hair before they got more information. A very (unintelligible) person, very, very much<\/em> that didn\u2019t make a demonstration. Scared the shit out of me. You saw through it, others didn\u2019t. Some did, some didn\u2019t. You have to do what you\u2013 but that doesn\u2019t mean perfection, but God, man, my successes in terms of helping people and my ut\u2013 utter willingness to endure pain, I will take that with me, \u2018cause someone with a\u2013 anoth\u2013 maybe there\u2019s nothing better in life than to work with that guy and help him bear his burden, it\u2019s not like (unintelligible word) him it\u2019s like helping him. What is there better to do? If I see something like that, I\u2019d sure help. (Pause) Well, then, I don\u2019t know what you mean by that.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I\u2013 (Pause) Uh, you\u2019re right. You\u2019re absolutely right. There\u2019s nothing better to do than follow you, but and I have done that for five years.<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> So\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> And resent it.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I resent most the time, and now I feel like I\u2019m\u2013 Look, okay, (clears throat), uh.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> You might help me understand (unintelligible) decision (unintelligible) explain to me.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> The thing\u2013 I\u2013 you seem to wanna feel\u2013 you seem to wanna know, for, you know, why I left.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Absolutely, I wanna know why.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> And I\u2013 (Pause) (Sighs) I am rather at a loss to give you any coherent satisfiable answer. Uh- My<\/em> main concern is to, you know, find out. I\u2013 I mean, this could go on forever, and very shortly I\u2019ll start giving you answers you want.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I don\u2019t want you to do that.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> They\u2019ll be with no relationship to how I feel inside. Okay?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I don\u2019t want you to do that.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> And I know you don\u2019t want me to do that, and\u2013 or I think<\/em> you don\u2019t want me to do that, I\u2019m really not sure sometimes. Uh, so\u2013<\/p>\n

(People talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> What did you say?<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> (unintelligible), whoa, Ben.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Hmm?<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> (unintelligible) pass, so why do you throw out that kind of shit?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Well, I\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> You know he don\u2019t\u2013 What\u2013 what makes you think he wants (unintelligible) to get a pass, when he wants to know what\u2019s going on.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I\u2019ve been giving (unintelligible) answers for so long.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I\u2013 I would like to not get me hurt anymore, but I\u2019d rather hear the truth. I\u2019d rather hear the truth than\u2013 than (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

(People talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> Hold it, now wait a minute. You\u2019re not a fucking villain, wait a minute. You\u2019re not a villain, and you saw\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Burned out, he says he\u2019s burned out. What\u2019s this (unintelligible) burned out.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> No I, I\u2019d\u2013<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> How old are you?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> How old am I? Twenty-seven.<\/p>\n

Woman 5:<\/strong> You don\u2019t care about the (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Man 9:<\/strong> Burned out at twenty-seven?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Is that what you\u2019re saying, you don\u2019t care?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I\u2019m not\u2013 I\u2019m saying at this point I cannot work at the level Peoples Temple works, and\u2013 you know, it just doesn\u2019t, it just doesn\u2019t\u2013 I\u2013 you know, fine, I could go out there and say I\u2019m gonna do it and everything and everything\u2019s gonna be fine, but I won\u2019t.<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> Are you afraid it\u2019d interfere with your job and make you lose your fucking job? Putting in too much time here. Is that a factor?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Uh, no. I think uh\u2013 I got a problem with the job because I just can\u2019t\u00ad\u2013 I\u2019m not in town occasionally. But uh, as far as\u2013 I\u2019ve got more time now than I had before.<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> Did you see the way he did it when\u2013 when\u2013 when we was in that law\u2013 when we was in the law office and he know somebody else was\u2013 he was gonna fix it but he didn\u2019t know about this thing with you, you see the way he ke\u2013 started talking about the radio?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Uh-huh. He covered my ass \u2018cause I fucked up. He covered my ass \u2018cause I fucked up. (unintelligible word)<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> So see obviously, obviously you should\u2019ve noticed that. And\u2013 and they had to cover up for Jean\u2019s ass so, don\u2019t use no loss of faith kinda shit. So don\u2019t use that excuse. Just give him the truth, you know, \u2018cause it ain\u2019t no loss of face, \u2018cause you ain\u2019t got no face to lose in the first place.<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> You know, and anoth\u2013 another thing, and another thing. You said that you didn\u2019t think that he would come back here. And so from that point on, you just, you\u2013 you got more\u2013<\/p>\n

End of Side A<\/strong><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Side B<\/strong><\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> \u2013of doing what you know to be right. And you just been hedging your ass around us, and I\u2019m getting mo\u2013 sick and tired of your fucking ass. Hedging\u2013 and you, and you haven\u2019t given one precise clear answer on why, or what\u2019s wrong, or what\u2019s on your fucking mind.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> It comes with pain and anger being black. You can understand this, or perhaps you intellectually remotely understand it. This is miserable, for black people to continuously see the disappointment of white people who just walk off. You don\u2019t walk away from blackness.<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> Damn straight.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> What do you do when you see a black woman walking down the street getting hassled? What do you feel? You can\u2019t avoid walking down the street and seeing black people in San Francisco, can you? Or do you see\u2013 what do you feel, Ben, knowing that you could help them and you\u2019re not? Do you have any feeling at all?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> You said your feelings don\u2019t go very deep. Now, why\u2013 why not, son, why don\u2019t you let them go deep?<\/p>\n

(Pause)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I\u2013 I don\u2019t know why my feelings, but I basically I\u2013.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> What would you think was a\u2013 what\u2013 what would you think was a significant point of my character in that office? He said that I have saved you embarrassment from people, but that wasn\u2019t no significant point of character.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Well, the most significant thing is that you were there period, to make it\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> No, there\u2019s something more. In spite of how much you hurt me, I want that log\u2013 that log book, not in their hands. Friendship like that, you\u2019re never gonna find. I\u2019ve never found it, nobody\u2019s ever given me that kind of friendship. And Ben, I see, when you\u2013 you hurt<\/em> the person desperately, but they still think about you. You\u2019re concerned about your well-being, \u2018cause I don\u2019t see people stamp (unintelligible word) of their problem in nine months, you know. In three years, we\u2019ll either be dead or we\u2019ll be there. And that world got more promising for my people, otherwise, but those times when I was trying an integrated mind, if we all ended up in chaos, because I didn\u2019t think we had any hope. If it had to be, it had to be. I was trying to build, I was trying to do something. There\u2019s no way to know. Now we are holding something, we have got something. A clear example are those kids\u2019 lives. You can see it. And we\u2019ve built contacts with government, different levels, high<\/em> contacts, important contacts. People that can hear about our movement, just function in that society, guaranteeing being a region where there\u2019ll be representation. We\u2019ll be our own mayor<\/em>, our own council, dignity for black youngsters that\u2019ll never be able to hold their head up high here to get any kind of a job. And some white youths too. But that world is now very obtainable, not (unintelligible word) dropping in to see me in the middle of the night talking. Friendly, on a friendly basis because one intuition paid off. Not many do but one did. I suspect that somebody (unintelligible), they found out, you found out what I said was true. We backed up my intuition, my documentation. So you\u2019re very loyal and devoted to us. And we have this other very important contact, and we\u2019re gonna make more. The whole Caribbean is thriving with the spirit of socialism, it\u2019s going. Nobody\u2019s gonna stop it. America\u2019s not big enough to stop what\u2019s happening out there. And I don\u2019t know what uh, what you could find that would be scintillating. So you don\u2019t like to work so hard, so tell us you don\u2019t like to work rather than pull your presence totally away from people and cause disillusion. And black people\u2019ll say \u201cHere\u2019s another white person I trusted.\u201d Don\u2019t\u2013 it doesn\u2019t matter what you\u2019ve done to me, \u2018cause I will get over that, you know I forgive it and I forgive very quickly. Surely you\u2019ve seen that (unintelligible word) before anything about me. You may have not worked with me as closely as some. These people disappointed me, there\u2019s hardly a soul in here, hasn\u2019t disappointed me. But I\u2013 I presume they have, I don\u2019t remember a one, I can\u2019t remember a thing right now.<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> It\u2019s true, it\u2019s true, it\u2019s true.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> It\u2019s true.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I really am very, very uh\u2013 not a bit of vengeance in me, not at bit. (Pause) You say because\u2013 I hear you saying, I can\u2019t live up to my eyes so I\u2019ll not live up to anything. Well, that uh, that\u2019s your choice.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Well, that\u2019s\u2013 that\u2019s pretty accurate. That\u2013 that\u2019s, it has uh\u2013 (clears throat) you know that\u2019s what I\u2013 you know, I started trying to live up to my eyes and then, you know, I started sliding a little bit and a little bit more and\u2013 and uh, (Pause) where\u2019s the end? Not somebody I just look up to. I\u2013 I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> The end of it is you were seen at all in the place by black people, it would be a\u2013 one less heartache. You know the uh, just your very\u2013 very presence is better than no presence at all. People who are hurt\u2013 I don\u2019t know how our black people keep any faith. I really don\u2019t know. Just constantly in this, things that go on, and then people don\u2019t leave us alone. They won\u2019t go out. I\u2019m really not worried about you being diabolical, to level with you, I don\u2019t think you\u2019re a diabolical person. But I\u2019m\u2013 I\u2019m trying to find out what the hell\u2019s happening. Because if everybody\u2019s gonna let me down, I might as well make the best use of my body and let it destroy it someplace for some cause.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I don\u2019t\u2013 Well\u2013 You have\u2013 you have to make that decision, but I don\u2019t think I\u2019m typical in the sense that other people have left. I mean if I was typical this time I would try to get someone else to go with me I think. You know I\u2019d try to, (unintelligible) contacts (unintelligible) my girlfriend.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I don\u2019t think you are typical, but you have left. You left a guy that\u2013 you\u2019ve not seen me yet. I don\u2019t believe anybody can see me and know how much I care and how much principle, I\u2019ve got to do this. So obviously you\u2019ve shut off from me.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Yeah, it\u2019s\u2013 you know\u2013<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> And by you leaving, Ben\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> So how many more are doing the same thing? How many more are sitting doing the same?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> Waiting for you to go before they jump.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> That\u2019s something that\u2019s\u2013 although I\u2013 I don\u2019t think\u2013 I just don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> And you think\u2013 and you jumping, who\u2013 who will you effect? Who will jump?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know, I don\u2019t\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible) work that way and you know that.<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> A lot of people\u2013 A lot of people said you could\u2019ve stayed. You\u2019re not an asshole like I have been, all right. So a lot of people, you know, come to the\u2013 you know, see you as a steady rock, everybody know I\u2019m a asshole.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I don\u2019t think that\u2019s true either, but uh, that is true in\u2013 in contrast, you haven\u2019t seemed as steady.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I\u2013 I don\u2019t\u2013 I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> See, that\u2019s why I wanted to, that\u2019s why I wanted to.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible) dirty overalls, you never worried about outward appearances, and that\u2019s why I loved you so. Then all of a sudden you become interested in a fucking bourgeois.<\/p>\n

(Pause)<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> (Laughs quietly)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Uh, that\u2019s a problem. I don\u2019t have any easy answers.<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> Do you have any guilt? Do you think you owe a debt?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> There\u2019s so much guilt here.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Yeah, I have some guilt.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> How much guilt? That\u2019s what keeps me going.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I can\u2019t\u2013 I don\u2019t function on guilt.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Yeah, but that\u2019s\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Right from the beginning, you said, how many people function on guilt, and I raised my hand, but I don\u2019t.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> But you can. I do. Uh, (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I feel\u2013 No, I\u2019m not saying that you don\u2019t. But uh, she<\/em> functions on guilt. She functions very well<\/em> on guilt, she can\u2019t function without<\/em> it, it seems like. And I know she works very well, and that\u2019s always, she\u2013 she\u2019s always worked very well.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> But you\u2019re saying that classic bourgeois thing. Ben, you\u2019re saying that you can\u2019t function on guilt.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> No, I\u2019m not.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> The best production in the world has come from me caring and giving, and I function on guilt all the time. Be in an ocean, twelve minutes, it\u2019s an exaggeration of guilt (unintelligible) might as well get out (unintelligible word). Loveliest beach I\u2019ve ever met, but I might as well get out of it. But I\u2019d rather have too much than not enough. You can\u2019t function\u2013 You say you can\u2019t function on guilt. What is it, this guilt overwhelms you?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> No just, I mean just\u2013 (sighs)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> What\u2019s it do, just overwhelm you or something when you let guilt come in?<\/p>\n

(Pause)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Uh, I think guilt is something that you need and\u2013 and I have guilt. And uh\u2013 but I don\u2019t think, for me<\/em> at least, it doesn\u2019t make ve\u2013 doesn\u2019t make a very good motivating point<\/em>. If I\u2019m doing something out of guilt, uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> How else would you motivate me<\/em>?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Well, that\u2019s\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible) hurts (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> See that\u2019s\u2013 if we function on guilt or, you know, responsibility to me, so I started (unintelligible) which was something I liked, and that was the first thing that I had liked for years.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Okay, okay, so you\u2019re not me. So you like the radio. That made you a bad person all of a sudden.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> No, but that made me\u2013 uh, put me in a position of like separating me from the rest of Peoples Temple (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible) the rest of the Peoples Temple.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Uh, uh\u2013 oh Well, you know, from where I wanted to be, or the image I have of myself.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> That\u2019s good, that shows conscientious. That\u2019s what\u2013 that\u2019s why I think it\u2019s a terrible waste to see you go back and support these motherfuckers and hurt black people who looked up to you. And you\u2013 you won\u2019t hurt me, and you know I\u2019ll over\u2013 I\u2019ll override it. I\u2019ll override it, I\u2019ll live through it. I\u2019ll override it. It\u2019ll always be<\/em> there. The problem is I <\/em>have to make certain deductions about people you say you can\u2019t depend on, you can\u2019t depend on them. How many people feel like that, you can\u2019t depend on them? Jesus, (stumbles over words) you can imagine where I stand here having to try to save people\u2019s lives, and if I can\u2019t depend upon people, I don\u2019t know\u2013 I don\u2019t know how to do it.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I\u2013 I\u2013 I had always assumed more or less that you had kind of evolved a system of depending on people when they were dependable, and when they weren\u2019t dependable, they just weren\u2019t dependable, and you just had to go around it some way.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> That\u2019s good for a personal standpoint, as a personal standpoint I can do that. I can take care of heartaches as much as I\u2019m willing to take them. But I\u2019ve got to talk in terms of organization now. I\u2019ve got to begin to think in the long run organization. Already your exodus has created a situation which I\u2019ve come back and taken great risk. Who knows when and where the\u2013 the process server can be at any second, or that actually may not be that unit at all. But that\u2019s that risk that\u2019s there. There\u2019re things I\u2019ve done that are very good, that saved a lot of lives, a lot of places in the world. But there are enemies out there who\u2019d try to\u2013 Yeah, they\u2019ve gotten so devious. I don\u2019t know what it is, but I guess it must be resentment.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> It\u2019s guilt, it\u2019s guilt.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Guilt?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> That\u2019s what it is. Guilt for leaving a good thing.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Why.<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> So you want to destroy it?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I guess.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Why doesn\u2019t the same guilt\u2013 if the guilt operates out there, why doesn\u2019t it operate (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Well, that\u2019s an interesting point. I\u2019d like to hear this. Do you think\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I mean, you know, that\u2013 it was your idea. I mean that\u2019s what\u2013 and I think that\u2019s the way it works.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Well, I\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> They see something good, they turned their back on it, they can\u2019t fix it themselves so they try to destroy what\u2019s bothering them.<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019ve been seeing a lot of niggers go out, and they don\u2019t do nothing but go out and do their thing and try to leave it alone, but every time a honkey go out thinking he got some motherfucking sense, that\u2019s when the shit start. And I\u2019ll put you in that same category, \u2018cause you think you got some sense, motherfucker.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> There\u2019ve been a lot of blacks have gone out, and they\u2019ve been trying to do a lot of shit. They\u2019re there. They just don\u2019t get the sounding board. It\u2019s whites the world listens to. That\u2019s unfortunate. Reverse prejudice. And there are blacks who\u2019ve walked away peacefully. Unfortunately very few whites. Can\u2019t think of anybody<\/em> offhand except uh, Virginia Arrends who died. But then (unintelligible) when we had a man, this atrocious man, we had him clearly locked in the corner for what he\u2019d done with Leo. In the name of the Lord, having Leo fuck him in the name of the Lord, if you recall, (unintelligible) and he\u2019s this evil bastard trying to destroy us. We had him clearly nailed to the wall, but they got him clear out of the community. Didn\u2019t want<\/em> to, but then I don\u2019t like to see anybody hurt. He\u2019s a very, very devious person who\u2019s trying to destroy us. Too many, too many people (unintelligible) make me sick. I get a\u2013 I get a feeling of heaviness in my chest. So we had him\u2013 only one\u2013 we didn\u2019t want to get arrested, we wanted him out of the school system. And Virginia Arrends went in and testified on his behalf. (unintelligible) clear proof, but we never got to talk again. But he\u2019s still there, he\u2019s still at good old Redwood Valley stirring up hell, creating confusion. Organized Lois Ponts the other day, was at her mother\u2019s home, and she picked up the phone and he finished talking to her, he went on, \u201cNow if you\u2019ll do this, (unintelligible) you\u2019ll be able to get them. You\u2019ll be able to stop Lois and you\u2019ll be able to stop that child from getting to go over there.\u201d Just insidious. Goddamn this business. I think I am right, but I don\u2019t know how to deal<\/em> with this business of guilt. The people go out, and then they feel guilty, and they got to put the light out. I just\u2013 it just overwhelms me. I don\u2019t know what to do with it.<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> Well, they better hope their light shines, \u2018cause a lot of people, some have you, a lot of motherfuckers are gonna be fucked up, that\u2019s for goddamned sure. You\u2019re the only one saving a lot of fuckers.<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> And Ben, by you saying that you don\u2019t know where you are, you\u2013 you\u2019re in a book.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> You want me to say I know where I\u2019m at?<\/p>\n

( Man 1 and Ben speak over each other )<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> No Ben, no, no, no Ben, no Ben, no Ben.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> That\u2019s what I mean (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> I want you\u2013 I want you to have some actions, I want you to say shit. But I just want you to know that you\u2013 that you\u2019re down.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Hear, hear black people, hear that. They only\u2013 they don\u2019t give a shit what you think. Don\u2019t<\/em> hurt anymore, that\u2019s what they\u2019re saying.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> (Muffled) I won\u2019t.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Don\u2019t be\u2013 don\u2019t make the action. He don\u2019t give a shit what you think, what you feel, to be black. Who\u2013 Who would\u2013 they went after who\u2013 who got the brunt of at the Los Angeles affair. He was one, beating that deni\u2013 denigration, Jackson, him.<\/p>\n

Man 1:<\/strong> Plus they beat me down at the station. So you don\u2019t, don\u2019t\u2013 don\u2019t tell me about what\u2013 what I want you to\u2013 what I want to hear. Fucker<\/em>.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> All they\u2019re saying is, make yourself a prisoner like the rest of us. Identify. It doesn\u2019t matter that you\u2019re gonna like it, don\u2019t expect it, I don\u2019t expect you to like me. I wouldn\u2019t uh, expect that, I know nobody does. I<\/em> would if I had\u2013 if I<\/em>would if I knew somebody like me. I\u2019d like them, I wouldn\u2019t give a shit what they did. (unintelligible) for me because I see what they do and what they are and what they mean and what they give, and how they care and don\u2019t even forget any little detail. Suppose it\u2019ll happen sometime, I (unintelligible word) aging, it\u2019ll\u2013 it\u2019ll finally get to me, but I have tried very hard not to lose any detail for protecting them, fulfilling their needs<\/em>. But I don\u2019t un\u2013 I must admit I can\u2019t offer you the bourgeois life. You know (unintelligible) will never get anyone to the Promised Land. I\u2019m not able to say they can go out and do their thing, wouldn\u2019t be any organization. But I\u2019m able to do my<\/em> suffering bit and let everyone else do their thing, it wouldn\u2019t bother me. I wouldn\u2019t have any (unintelligible) you people, I don\u2019t have any resentment for the children in this. Fucking with what I\u2019d do for the black people. But I suffer as much as any black person has ever suffered, or any human being ever suffered. I need to feel the pain I feel at this moment, and I analyze my thoughts all the time, is a pain I feel of having blacks hearing this. Be familiar with it. That<\/em> hurt. But if only<\/em> it were to live the bourgeois life, if I could do a successful contribution for humanity, I wouldn\u2019t care. I mean uh, you\u2013 you wouldn\u2019t cause me resentment. I have to live with me<\/em>, and you have to live with you<\/em>, but there\u2019s more<\/em> than that at stake. We are in an island in this little fucking raging ocean. We can\u2019t afford to lose many more, if any<\/em> more. When I stood up there in (unintelligible), I thought why don\u2019t we just all die in here. I didn\u2019t give a shit whether they met FCC or not. This is just ridiculous. Stable people walking out, and that is impossible. That\u2019s the only thing that bothers me is that sometime, in that moment, you\u2019re saying, out of desperation, you make a desperate move. (unintelligible) analyze you say. (unintelligible) \u2018cause I have a number of disappointments, a num\u2013 number of treasons. I\u2019m not likely to have done anything with you<\/em>, but if you stirred up something and some others, (unintelligible) awfully, awfully (unintelligible). But it turned out not to be. And me, I\u2019m a cynic. You say you\u2013 you think that I believe you\u2019re pessimistic. Well, you couldn\u2019t be as pessimistic as me. When I have seen what I saw that day in the\u00ad\u2013 in the last few days in Guyana and in uh, Grenada and uh, some other islands. The whole<\/em>Caribbean is good that way, so this contract ought to be good. And it\u2019s really encouraging. He said that country used to be a private island. He suffered to be a part of giving a black kid\u2013 look at their poor little faces when they stand up for these catharsises. That\u2019s why I was really hard on him last night, but they act out. Jesus Christ, what of his new black kids in the school system, one of his new black issues at off streets. And were you here the other night when I just\u2013 the night I left. I felt such agony having to leave that damn black man standing up and saying how his so-called white friend pushed him uh\u2013 always into believing he was his friend, and in a cafeteria and standing, but then a couple of white engineers stand up, surround his stool and start talking about cutting off the balls of blacks and skinning them. His white friend left him, and he had to stand there for the sake of this cause. And he wanted to die right there, wanted to get it over with. For a man to stand that degradation for one fucking hour, those sons of bitches whites, they certainly, certainly put him through that bombardment. Nice<\/em> looking chap up there. Were you there that night?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> No.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> He wears glasses, something like you do. You need to meet him, you need to hear these<\/em> people. Need to know what it is to be nigger<\/em>.<\/a> (unintelligible) Your dad didn\u2019t care that much apparently, although you probably had some pampering by being uh, from your real mother. I don\u2019t know. Uh, you\u2019re not the typical only child syndrome. \u2018Cause you were\u2013 were you afraid to feel, were you afraid to care? Afraid to care or not<\/em> to care.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I think that\u2019s probably the basis of it all. You know, fear is pretty much the origin of (unintelligible word) any kind of blockage, whether you don\u2019t feel as deeply as you should or, it\u2019s, you know\u2013 it\u2019s all basically fear (unintelligible). For uh, you know, for what ever reason.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Well, what\u2019s the difference? As long as you<\/em> care, if people hurt that care, what\u2019s the difference. Living is a pile of shit<\/em>. There\u2019s not enough there to inspire you for two days, if you\u2019d\u2013 and you\u2019ve seen<\/em> that. Friends leave good paying jobs and try to find other communes. You\u2019ll never find a commune like this. You\u2019ll never find a leader like this, never again, never will find another leader. \u2018Cause I know that about me, whatever guilt I\u2019ve seen, I know nobody\u2019s<\/em> got the goodness that I\u2019ve got. \u2018Cause I\u2019ve done a lot of testing and a lot of analysis and a lot of comparison. I criticize (unintelligible) and weigh it very, very thoroughly. I compare my life to others, my lives \u2013 that\u2019s Freud \u2013 the many lives I have lived, and very thoroughly look at me. I got too many precious people, and I am not gonna fuck them up easily. I\u2019m overwhelmed with pain, physical pain. (unintelligible), and no sleep pushed back into a situation that I didn\u2019t plan<\/em> for. This is not good planning (unintelligible). But I\u2013 I don\u2019t doubt Father\u2019ll ever do anything at all of that great interest. It is the least deliberated act (unintelligible) so hopeless. You mention that night, and that night was hopeless, pretty hopeless night. I had to correct some things. I had to eradicate some situations, or we would\u2019ve been doomed. The biggest test\u2013 not just Patty, Patty and I needed to be at work, she could be doing some fantastic things now, if she only got over that goddamn miserable fear of dying. I\u2019ve been exposed to death so many times, it\u2019s a very pleasant experience. I don\u2019t know what you\u2019re holding on to, what the hell do you want? It\u2019s a loss of face. Jesus Christ, and where else is your loss of face gonna lead you? What next?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> You know, I\u2013 (Pause) I\u2019m trying to figure out where we can\u2013 where\u2013 where are we, where can we work from?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I hear that, I hear that, I hear that\u2019s where, I hear that, but you\u2013 I hear this resolute, \u201cI will not change, I have made up my mind.\u201d<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> That\u2019s true.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> And uh, this is what\u2013 this is what overwhelms me in the face of such love as I have for you, that you could keep saying that. But you\u2019re not willing to negotiate it at all. It\u2019s nonnegotiable.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Yep, (Pause) that\u2019s true.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Well, but why? Why is it nonnegotiable?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Because I am\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> What\u2019s the importance about your (Claps hands once) pride in your decisions? How do you count so much (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Well, actually, you know what, I want\u2013 Okay. What I intended to do and all this month (unintelligible). At the end er\u2013 everyone got off all right, then I\u2019d go off and do something else.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Then what?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Well, you know, I didn\u2019t have any\u2013 you know, I didn\u2019t have any plans. But uh, uh, and then six months, a year (unintelligible). Can I live here, can I not live here, do I live there, or I do not live there. And then from there (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> You oughta take another\u2013 you oughta take trip there. You\u2019d see a new situation. If my Stephan [Jones] who\u2019s an anarchist, \u2018cause he happens to be in the shadow of a leader, leave here, and he loved that life and not want to come back here, and leave it up to Jim to help and couldn\u2019t stand it. (unintelligible) out there last evening, he\u2013 he\u2019s out there building buildings, unloading ships and doing it in four hours as (unintelligible name) can verify. He\u2019s bearing the biggest weight in the world, and my God, it has to be something very, very worthwhile, \u2018cause he\u2019s a genius. He\u2019s got a very, very keen mind, and at seventeen, he\u2019s looked at this fucking life out there, and emptied himself of it. You really ought to have a look at Guyana.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Well.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> The way I feel is uh, you have to\u2013 you know, at that time I decided Peoples Temple wasn\u2019t really where it\u2019s at after all, and uh, I was helping there. If I didn\u2019t work here, (unintelligible) that would be.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> See, Peoples Temple there is not running up and down road in busses and having meetings. They don\u2019t have church meetings there. Never had one yet.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> (unintelligible under microphone movement)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Well, what\u2019s more nice about it for some of us is that the goddamn river leads into Venezuela, and the revolution\u2019s gonna\u2013 the whole subcontinent\u2019s gonna go socialist and you can play a part in something significant. There\u2019s no alliances here. (unintelligible) all Old Testament point of view. I wanted to be sure. So I put the press out to see if we can do anything. Didn\u2019t do anything. Nobody wants to work. This is a miserable country, nobody gives a goddamn, nobody cares, it\u2019s all plastic. There are places in the world that care, that stop in the streets. Grenada, though, Caribbean islands, friendliness, offer you assistance, come use my telephone. (unintelligible word) Don\u2019t even ask you if you\u2019re gonna put a pre-charged or if you\u2019re gonna put it collect. They don\u2019t even ask you. The switchboard. Notice when you go into a hotel today, you know the switchboard in that lovely fantastic hotel on the sea. No charges for the call. No monitor to see whether you put the phone on them or put the phone on the United States. It\u2019s a different world. You won\u2019t get by that here. They verify and check everything, nobody trusts anybody anymore, nobody gives a shit about anybody. You could drop dead and the owner at the inn, take us all around for drinks (unintelligible) fucking bar, if we were drinkers. Friendliness, friendship, warmth, relationships count. Nothing counts here. Everybody uses (unintelligible under microphone movement)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> (Stumbles over words). As I said, I\u2019m not expecting (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Woman 2:<\/strong> Well, your reasoning, though\u2013 you\u2019re going out on\u2013 on the basis\u2013 okay, you thought this thing out and you know what you\u2019re doing is right.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> No\u2013 (sighs) no, I didn\u2019t\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman 2:<\/strong> But do you really\u2013 First of all, do you really that you have\u2013 are the best judge of your own personality? I mean, can you effect\u2013 it\u2019s not\u2013 it\u2019s not the fact that maybe other people, considering all of us come from a very warped frame of mind, growing up in a capitalist society, and you perhaps even more<\/em> so through your whole growing up environment, can you accept the fact that maybe Jim who loves you a lot more than anybody else outside ever could, would not want in fact what\u2019s best for you?<\/p>\n

(People talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Woman 2:<\/strong> I don\u2019t think it\u2019s a matter of will, it\u2019s more of what your end results\u2019 going to be.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Well, you know (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Woman 2:<\/strong> What\u2013 What is the end result of you\u2019re going off moving? Why are you\u2013 what\u2013 what do you do\u2013 what right<\/em>do you have to have these so-called higher intellectual pursuits, when you know you have a responsibility to other people? (Pause) You can\u2019t avoid that. Just because you don\u2019t believe in it, doesn\u2019t mean you can\u2019t avoid it.<\/p>\n

(Phone rings)<\/p>\n

Woman 3:<\/strong> (Answers phone). Hello?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> You say you\u2019re telling us the truth, but I think you\u2019re bullshitting, so I think there\u2019s more that you\u2019re not telling us. Because it\u2019s not making sense. You told us, you told us (unintelligible) so I don\u2019t want to work with the Temple. I think\u2013 I think that (unintelligible) I think what you want to do is get away from uh, I think this fear. You know (unintelligible word) controlling. If I\u2019d say a word, he\u2019d kill you right there.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Uh-huh.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I think you\u2013 I think that\u2019s<\/em> what was really talking more that\u2013 So you\u2019re really not<\/em> giving me all the truth yet.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I think you\u2019d get a different story from (unintelligible) alone, yeah. I am very influenced by groups.<\/p>\n

Woman 2:<\/strong> That<\/em> is where I have a problem.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible) so you see, I\u2019m not trying to protect myself over here (unintelligible) if anybody does have this illusion of me tomorrow.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I\u2019m just\u2013 You know, I think that\u2019s just a basic group dynamic, you take any one of us here and you set them in front of a group and you start asking questions, you\u2019ll get a different story than if you sit them down, and why.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Why? Why?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Because it\u2019s what\u2013 people are that way. They are in fa\u2013 you know they are, whether they like to admit it or not, or allow to whatever extent.<\/p>\n

(People talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Woman 2:<\/strong> Ben, does that mean\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> What do I have to give\u2013 you see, I\u2019m the one who has to lose. You\u2019re critic\u2013 cri\u2013 criticizing me. I have to deal with people and keep everybody harmonizing together. So if I<\/em> don\u2019t care, why should you care? (unintelligible) I\u2019m the one that\u2019s got something to lose \u2018cause everybody uses everything.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Well, I\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible word) That word, that word \u201cadapt\u201d\u2013 I\u2019ve had that fucking word stabbed at me fifty thousand times.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Oh geez.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> And the one that created it\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I wasn\u2019t even there when Jean said that, so I don\u2019t even know what her argument is.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> That we\u2019ve referred to (unintelligible) again adapt, to adapt. Honestly, it\u2019s come up all the time I\u2019ve had to deal with it constantly. She had a pretty good case at the time, though she admitted that she was doing it for all the wrong reasons, it was a pretty good case. Yeah, what\u2019s the difference whether you adapt or you don\u2019t adapt, if I adapted so I don\u2019t hurt you, shit, what\u2019s that matter to you. I know that\u2019s\u2013 I\u2013 that\u2019s irrelevant to me. If one person\u2019s adapting or really evolved or if we can do something significant. Now do\u2013 you don\u2019t have any idea. See, I don\u2019t put every goddamn thing out that I\u2019m doing, you can\u2019t do that. You were with people you trust, but you were always out someplace else anyway. So it wasn\u2019t, wasn\u2019t a matter of just trusting. You\u2019d been a great you being more involved. But you\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Well, I\u2013 You know, I did that on purpose, you know, I didn\u2019t want to get<\/em> involved. I mean that\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019d think (unintelligible word) involved with something meaningful.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Well, that\u2019s a\u2013 Well\u2013 (Pause) Support it, but\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible) in case you find some challenge like getting somebody out of jail? We\u2019ve done that. Somebody out of the\u2013 out of the uh\u2013 out a concentration camp<\/a>, we\u2019ve done that.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> No.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Would you find some challenge in something like that? Would you find some challenge (unintelligible) It stops the system.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I mean, yeah, yeah, there\u2019re challenges. But I don\u2019t know whether that\u2019s\u2013 you know, there are many, you know\u2013 there are many, many challenging things. I\u2019m not looking for something that\u2019s challenging.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Then what in the hell are<\/em> you looking for? (unintelligible) You think I\u2019m just\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I\u2013 I think, I just want, you know, I want some time to regroup my thoughts and breathe a little bit and look around the world to see what\u2019s going on and make a decision one way or the other, am I gonna be here, am I gonna be there, you know, what am I gonna do. That\u2019s it.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> What in the meantime do we do? You didn\u2019t go\u2013 you didn\u2019t go five hundred miles, you didn\u2019t go (unintelligible), that would have been easily taken care of. It is time, but here you are walking up and down the streets. How the hell do we explain, here\u2019s Ben Bowers taking six months, how do you explain that to poor struggling black people who are beating their ass to try to make some of their dream possible.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Well, that\u2019s what we\u2019d work out. Can we work out something here?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> What?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I mean that\u2013 that\u2019s the point.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> And then you\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman 2:<\/strong> And also on the other hand you\u2019re influenced by a group and you said what the group wanted. Well, you\u2019re going out with the damn honkeys, you\u2019re not going out with anybody black, so that means you\u2019re going to go along with whatever they say. I don\u2019t trust you anyway, (unintelligible). Fuck, man. That means if they all get up and talk about P.T., you\u2019re gonna go along with it, negative, because everybody in your group\u2019s going along with it.<\/p>\n

(People talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Woman 2:<\/strong> (unintelligible) I\u2019m saying you\u2019re going out with all white people, right?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> It is gonna be an all-white, all-white (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Woman 2:<\/strong> All right, so if they talk against us, you\u2019re going to go along with it.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible) all white goddamn apartment now. You have never liked uh\u2013 how do you feel living with a bunch of white people.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> It doesn\u2019t bother me.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> It doesn\u2019t bother you?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I mean, you know\u2013 I don\u2019t try not to look at people as whether they\u2019re black or whether they\u2019re white. (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> But with black people, you know where they\u2019re at.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> But there\u2019s so many\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Even a white Gallup Poll said they\u2019re ninety three percent racist.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I believe\u2013 You know, as far as I\u2019m concerned, everyone, maybe except you, except you is a racist. That\u2019s it. Period. If you are human, you are racist.<\/p>\n

Woman 2:<\/strong> What, if you think\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> A priori, a priori, a priori, all humanity, everybody is racist. They are concerned with other people, they are concerned with other people that are different, they\u2019re concerned for people that are alike, and it makes for racism. That\u2019s just the way it is.<\/p>\n

Woman 4: <\/strong>Okay, so racism exists, so do you act on it, because you\u2019re racist, do you act like one?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> No.<\/p>\n

Woman 4:<\/strong> Or do you control it?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> You control it.<\/p>\n

Woman 2:<\/strong> Please stop feeding black people, if you\u2019re white, you stop feeding black people who are hungry, because you\u2019re a racist, you stop feeling\u2013 (unintelligible under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible) I can\u2019t believe I\u2019m the only one not a racist. You\u2013 you go and be one (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Well, I\u2013 you know, it\u2019s a\u2013 a matter of degree.<\/p>\n

Woman 6:<\/strong> No, you just keep coming up with all these rationalizations so you have an excuse for everything you\u2019re doing.<\/p>\n

(Phone rings)<\/p>\n

Woman 3:<\/strong> (Answers phone) Hello?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Obviously, I\u2019m going to have an excuse for everything I do.<\/p>\n

Woman 5: <\/strong>(unintelligible) \u2013fact that you think you have a fucking right to make a choice. You have the fucking white right to make a choice.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> I mean I just look at your white face and know you couldn\u2019t have walked out if you were black.<\/p>\n

(People talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Woman 4:<\/strong> You got any other money coming in?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Any other money<\/em> coming in? No, I\u2019m just working.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019ve never seen a man amount much (unintelligible). You\u2019re a disappointment\u2013 You\u2013 you could kill<\/em> me. Now, I\u2019m being honest. You won\u2019t be honest, you could kill me. You physically could kill me. You gave money, you went along with an arrangement to get some money from a woman, we never would\u2019ve got it. (unintelligible under microphone movement) I may be sitting here acting calm, but inside I\u2019m just in a turmoil. (Pause) I don\u2019t know where in the hell you\u2019re coming from.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> And you say, I am not negotiable, I have made my decision, I mean, it may be a bad decision, but I\u2019m going\u2013 I\u2019m going out there. You don\u2019t know what the hell\u2019s out there. You say you want to find out there, so that shows you\u2019ve never listened to anything or really been watching<\/em>. For once I\u2019d be really saying is that you don\u2019t<\/em> know what\u2019s out there, because you said at one point, \u201cWell, my friends, uh, some of the people at my job, they\u2013 they find out there but then they go communal.\u201d But you\u2019re really not sure they\u2019re\u2013 they\u2019re right either. You think\u2013 maybe you think there\u2019s something out there.<\/p>\n

(Pause)<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I mean\u2013 (Pause) I think there\u2019s something to be done.<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> Such as?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible) ask you now tell me why?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Well, you know just like what Peoples Temple does.<\/p>\n

Woman 5:<\/strong> Where?<\/p>\n

Woman 2:<\/strong> Where are you gonna go to do that?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Boy, I\u2019ve heard this over and over. Tell me where. Tell me with who.<\/p>\n

Woman 5:<\/strong> What where? Now tell us where and tell us what.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Tell me with who and how.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Probably with no one. I\u2019ll probably never do it, okay? I don\u2019t feel\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman 2:<\/strong> You\u2019re just saying that, \u2018cause that\u2019s what we want to hear.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> No, that\u2019s true and I have not spent any time thinking (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I\u2019d rather hear this than just another lie I just did, \u2018cause that\u2019s the biggest fucking lie it ever gets, and it gets me angry. People say there\u2019s something can be done. Jim Jones (unintelligible) listen to anything so goddamn well, I\u2019m even willing to\u2013 been willing to step down out of positions and commissions to formalize this in this fucking city, and you can do nothing<\/em> that would (unintelligible) our own street fighter who don\u2019t know shit about politics, put him in his place that we\u2019ll kill for each other if we have to, if they\u2019re gonna come for our jugular vein. You can\u2019t get<\/em> these political fools to do anything. Our enemies\u2013 our worst enemies are those who are socialistic who are goddamn<\/em> jealous of the fact that we\u2019re getting things done. And if that isn\u2019t horrible. And they admit<\/em> it. We get down to, well, I don\u2019t like it, you could always say then, well, what\u2019s\u2013 what\u2019s your problem? Boils down, you were getting things done. First it starts, I don\u2019t like your\u2013 your way, that you\u2019re too tightly knit organized, you\u2013 you\u2019re all too\u2013 you stand up for each other. Well, what the hell\u2019s this, what the hell\u2019s different? What are we using\u2013 misusing power? Are we going down beating brains and busting out anybody\u2019s property? Are\u2013 Are we doing anything wrong? No, but I just don\u2019t like your\u2013 What it boils down to always is that we can produce. We produced at the International Hotel, we stopped those people from being mutilated by the riot squad and the sheriff\u2019s department. And a lot of the issues are over and over and over again, (unintelligible) You\u2019re not gonna have nothing to do, nothing to do. That\u2019s one thing. You\u2019d know better, if you would have any sense. This fucking society don\u2019t give a goddamn. You would have to have been reading Peoples Forum<\/em>, it was a pretty good piece of paper.<\/p>\n

Woman 4:<\/strong> Did you ever read it?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Woman 4:<\/strong> The last issue?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know which the last one was.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Well\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> The last one I saw was like a compendium of uh, previous issues.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Now that, what was what, what were some things talked to you?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Uh, you know\u2013 I think uh, deal on Nazism and uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Yeah, that\u2019s, that\u2019s\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> It was just, it was just well-written and it\u2019s presented a very, you know, good viewpoint of what socialism\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> The strong, strong attacks against Huey Newton, turned out that they can (unintelligible) defending him and getting under Cu\u2013 Cuba uh, trying to get some goddamn people to waken. Even though Huey may have made his mistakes, that you help people when they\u2019re in their alliance for change. Fucking not a soul rallied, not one. All we got is hate mail (unintelligible) and governmental threats. It took a lot of courage for me to go see Huey Newton. That\u2019s the way I feel about any human being that tries<\/em>. And you talk about what I\u2019m trying.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> No, I\u2019m not\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible) you, and I went to goddamn Cuba and saw the wrong<\/em> person in the world<\/em>, for the\u2013 the least popular person in the United States today in terms of the public\u2019s eyes. It did no good, nothing whatsoever. (unintelligible). In fact, they\u2019ll probably kill him. Even the person in who\u2019s charge of his\u2013 charge of his organization don\u2019t want him back over what he\u2019s doing. But that\u2019s what it\u2013 I felt for him, he\u2019s a black man stuck away in a position he feels like he wants to be in the struggle, it\u2019s my duty to try to help him. I warned<\/em> him. I warned him he ought not to come back. You see, I\u2019m not a dictator. I may be a leader but not a dictator. I just tell you, here\u2019s the way it is, friend, as I see it from my vast<\/em> experience, you go back to America, your ass is grass. But if you want to go back, I\u2019ll try to help you. Very human quality, very good quality, and nobody gives a shit. All I got from even so-called liberals, don\u2019t tell Newton, they\u2019ll\u2013 they\u2019ll get you and get\u2013 and they\u2013 they know we associate with you la-la-la, leave Newton alone. And Cuba, presenting Cuba \u2013 as it was, as it is \u2013 a beautiful prospect for a emerging socialist democracy. What the hell do we get nothing but hate letters? The left should\u2019ve been enthralled. There\u2019s no chance out there, man, there\u2019s no<\/em> chance. This country will go fascist without any resistance. This is a sick<\/em> culture, I don\u2019t know what the hell\u2019s made it sick. I don\u2019t know what\u2019s affected the humans in this country different than anyplace else. But even in goddamned\u2013 in Germany, men and women laid their fucking lives down on the railroad tracks after [Adolf] Hitler had full power, to stop the trains from going into Poland. No, you don\u2019t see that here. Never gonna see it, and you know<\/em> you\u2019re not gonna see it. You\u2019ve lived around here too long to see what we\u2019ve tried to engender and get no cooperation. Dog eat dog uh, uh\u2013 ruthless goddamned. Shit, we\u2013 we\u2019re facing one with the press now. He\u2019s got his fodder<\/em> from blacks and liberationists, a socialist writer, jealous because we\u2019re doing a better paper than he is. We\u2019ve blocked him and three times, after two times it\u2019s\u2013 some place you can\u2019t block him, so finally it gets\u2013 gets through. Our organization. You got to owe that to organization. Your organization has saved black children that\u2019ve been in jail. Say, Joe Wilson was in jail when I got home. Goddamn it, this organization pulled him out, my presence on the scene. That\u2019s one good thing to feel bad about, causing me to be back. I could\u2019ve still done it without getting back. But the organization<\/em> got in on it, Joe Wilson. Organization stopped when Jim Jr. [Jim Jones Jr.] would have been beat probably by police. But he dropped the name of Peoples Temple, he was still over, (unintelligible word) not on this side of the Bay, on Oakland\u2019s side, the highway patrol escorted his ass here rather than getting in any more trouble. They sure didn\u2019t do it because they loved<\/em> us. You say you want to be independent. Well, who the hell wouldn\u2019t\u2013 What\u2013 what can you defend in life for anybody, for yourself or anybody you may ever care for? What can you to do be\u2013 uh, to defend the people you love unless you have a fucking organization that\u2019s tight knit, a family. Nobody didn\u2019t like each other all the time. Oh my God, don\u2019t mess with Ben Bowers, don\u2019t mess with Chris Lewis, \u2018cause you\u2019re messing with me. I think that\u2019d be the most motivating first purpose and reason to live that there could be. (Pause) And all this six months shit, what the hell you wanna do in six months? What the hell you wanna try out that you\u2019re talking about? What is this\u2013 (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

(People talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> What\u2019s this magic six months? We\u2019ve heard that shit.<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> No, I just think\u2013 No, I just think\u2013 (Pause) Uh, I made that\u2013 I think someone pointed out was that you get the impression like I made a decision and it\u2019s not ever gonna change right now, and that\u2019s the way I feel. Well, I know that\u2019s why wanted to do.<\/p>\n

Baritone Man:<\/strong> (unintelligible) Just answer this question, what you want to try out. Fuck that other bullshit.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible) the frustration it is to uh, be out here. Um, thousands of dollars a day are coming back, bringing my kids, the one kid was in tears and agony, shaking like uh, somebody in epilepsy. Uh\u2013 He had to come\u2013 I had to bring him. It cost a son of a bitch and I come back over this huge goddamn (unintelligible). You know, I have to love you or I would be irate, so you know I had to love you. You\u2019d have<\/em> to know I had to love you, \u2018cause I\u2019m sure not afraid on one goddamn thing. And if I just can\u2019t get through,<\/em> I don\u2019t understand. You say nothing negotiable uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> I\u2019m not telling you nothing\u2019s negotiable.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> He risked the organization for you, Ben, and that\u2019s where it\u2019s at.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> All I\u2019ve poured out to you, all I\u2019ve poured out to you, and you still say, \u201cI\u2019ve made up my mind, made up my mind, made up my mind.\u201d This is\u2013 this is\u2013 it\u2019s irrational to say that it hasn\u2019t altered any? It hasn\u2019t altered any\u2013 anything that\u2019s been said hasn\u2019t altered your\u2013 your\u2013 your thoughts at all?<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> No.<\/p>\n

(People talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> (unintelligible) and two, that the hope for all of those people downstairs and everywhere else rests with him, \u2018cause nobody else would take over. He risked that, he knew that. With his guilt, his love, he knew that it was worth coming back to talk to you. Well, I sort of hope that you could do some sort of contribution. Does that have any sort of feeling, or does that say anything to you about what he thinks about you or you don\u2019t want to admit it\u2013<\/p>\n

Bowers:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Man 8:<\/strong> You don\u2019t want to face it, you don\u2019t want to face it.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> If I love him then, that means he\u2019s gotta be responsible.<\/p>\n

Man 4:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> And that\u2019s where I just feel like going out and jumping off a bil\u2013 building.<\/p>\n

End of Side B<\/strong><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

This tape was transcribed by Shannon Howard. The editors gratefully acknowledge her invaluable assistance. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you. To return to the Tape Index, click here. To read the Tape Summary, click here. Listen to MP3 (Pt. 1,\u00a0Pt. 2). Side A: Part 1: Jones: We all like […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":8,"featured_media":0,"parent":27291,"menu_order":519,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-108352","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/108352","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/8"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=108352"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/108352\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":123211,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/108352\/revisions\/123211"}],"up":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27291"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=108352"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}