{"id":108354,"date":"2021-02-08T13:36:28","date_gmt":"2021-02-08T21:36:28","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=108354"},"modified":"2021-02-09T14:33:43","modified_gmt":"2021-02-09T22:33:43","slug":"q777-transcript","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=108354","title":{"rendered":"Q777 Transcript (Original)"},"content":{"rendered":"

If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n

To return to the Tape Index, click here.<\/a>
\nTo read the Tape Summary, click here<\/a>. Listen to MP3<\/a>.<\/p>\n

(Editor\u2019s note<\/strong>: This tape was transcribed by Seriina Covarrubias. The<\/em> editors gratefully acknowledge her invaluable assistance.<\/em><\/p>\n

(This is the unedited version of this tape, as close to verbatim as the poor audio recording will allow. Because there are so many verbal pauses \u2013 mainly \u201cuh\u201d \u2013 and so many false starts in Jack Beam\u2019s speaking, however, it is difficult to follow at times. With that in mind, we have an edited version of this transcript<\/a> which is less cluttered and more coherent.)<\/em><\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> I knew they were rednecks<\/em>, I knew they were\u2013 (laughs)<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> Right, but you didn\u2019t know\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> But I didn\u2019t know\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> \u2013which (unintelligible) section.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> You didn\u2019t know about that. Okay.<\/p>\n

Jack Beam:<\/strong> But they were Kentuckians and Tenneseeans. Is it going now?<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> Yeah, we\u2019re okay.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> They were Kentuckians and Tenneseeans in that district. The district was called uh, Dogpatch Kentucky. I mean Dogpatch uh, uh, uh, of southside Indianapolis uh, and uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> Mmm (agreeing)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> \u2013that\u2019s where the Somerset uh, Mission was uh, that\u2013 that Jim had uh, been assigned to uh, and uh, but uh, he was told that the uh, word had got a\u2013 around by this time that uh, some\u2013 oh, what was the reference called of these people that never had no church home. They were Pentecostal people, but they were uh\u2013 they ran all over and they would take in everything. Well, anyway Jim had been in down in Franklin\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> Latter Rain.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Huh?<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> Latter Rain Movement.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Yeah, the Latter Rain Movement, uh\u2013 But anyhow they had had a meeting<\/em> down in Franklin, Indiana, and Jim had been asked to come down there and speak and uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> Was Columbus, Indiana.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Columbus, you\u2019re right. Columbus, Indiana\u2013 and uh, asked to speak<\/em> down there and uh, uh, uh, so his gift began to operate while he was down there and I mean he was uh, just running like ticker tape, just called all people, all kinds of their problems, their uh\u2013 their numbers, uh, Social Security numbers, uh, uh, payment uh, numbers that would be filed away sometimes that nobody could possibly know uh\u2013 just stuff like this and\u2013 and uh, silly little insignificant things that nobody had uh\u2013 and that\u2013 and uh, uh, he\u2019d tell people\u2013 call people out and tell \u2018em\u2013 tell \u2018em to go down to the corner and make a right turn or something, and there\u2019d be a Nestle wrapper laying in the gutter<\/em>, and under that Nestle wrapper was uh, some kind of a colored stone or something. Just intricate little details that just flash and\u2013 and they\u2019d go do it, and he said if that\u2019s there, then you\u2019ll believe, you know, but I\u2013 blam<\/em>, and they\u2019d be healed. But uh, this gift, uh, this grown girl, and he (unintelligible word) but in the meantime, John Price<\/strong> had heard about this, and so he went fishing, and\u2013 and\u2013 and he got this vision out while he was fishing that Jim should be his successor, that he was ready to retire. He was an old man. And uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> So he just realized that Jim would bring a lot of people into his church?<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> Okay.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> And uh, uh, his retirement is predicated, uh, you know, I mean his retiring salary is predicated\u2013 is predicated on what kind of good income come in<\/em> there, and so if he had a moneymaker in there, you know, then he was guaranteed to get uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> I see.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> You dig? Okay, so\u2013<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> Is he dead now?<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Oh yeah\u2013 he died horribly. She stood there and watched the old fucker die uh, of uh\u2013 of\u2013 of false pains really. Not a goddamn thing, no matter what they say\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Hypochondriac. He\u2013 he\u2013 he\u2013 he\u2013 he fantasized him a heart<\/em> attack. But anyhow, uh, uh, Laurel Street was comprised of uh, Ben Adams, which was a contractor. Uh, uh, I mean he built houses. He lived out in Beach Grove out in that area. Hines [phonetic] was another uh\u2013 I can\u2019t think of his initials, but anyhow they had a big uh, uh, electrical uh, place uh, like light fixtures. Uh\u2013 They had a big store which they had done electrical work wiring houses uh, and all that commercially and\u2013 and\u2013 and for homes uh, and uh, so Ben Adams and Hines and uh, uh, uh, a couple of the other uh, people in the church with uh\u2013 with many means uh, with\u2013 uh, was well to do, uh, they put everything in there. Uh, Hines put in all the electrical work. Uh, Ben Adams done the masonry and the\u2013 and\u2013 and built that sort of uh, thing and then uh, we had finish carpenters and that other which they done. I think it was, oh, Dycus was a finish carpenter and uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> This was when Jim was in the church? Or just before or\u2013<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019m\u2013 I\u2019m\u2013 I\u2019m bringing you up to this.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> That just prior to Jim being brought in<\/em> there, all right? Uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> It was kind of like they owned the church.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> See. So what I\u2019m saying and\u2013 and each one of these goddamn vultures had a piece of the church, and they set in their goddamn corner where they could ad\u2013 admire\u2013<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> Look at their masonry and their woodwork and their plumbing.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> \u2013every fucking that they had been put into the church. Hallelujah, praise God, isn\u2019t he wonderful. Don\u2019t fuck with the fixtures. Halle\u2013 You know, so uh, Price come in and made this proposal, what it was fine, and so they bring in\u2013 Jim said, well, bring him in, let him do his act, you know, we\u2019ll see if we dig him. This is\u2013 I\u2019m\u2013 I\u2019m stating it coldly, but that\u2019s the way that was.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> That\u2019s the way they looked at it.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Yes\u2013 Yeah, you\u2019re damn right, you know, and so all he did is he and about three people in a\u2013 in a\u2013 in one Sunday, uh, he healed more than that, but what I\u2019m saying, he had healed about three people, and I mean, the word went out like wildfire, and uh, the next<\/em> Sunday afternoon\u2013 it\u00ad\u2013 it was crowded, the next<\/em> Sunday afternoon, you couldn\u2019t even get in<\/em> the place. It was packed out and people out in the parking lot looking in the doors and everything and so (clears throat) he laid this down. Uh\u2013 Well, I think about the third time that Jim had come there uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> They were all white, you\u2019re saying?<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Oh, yes, these were all white<\/em> people, and some black people had come and they\u2019d been crammed way<\/em> back on the back row, and some didn\u2019t even get in.<\/p>\n

Marceline Jones:<\/strong> It was so crowded that I didn\u2019t realize that we had ushers. And I didn\u2019t know that black people were being purposefully put in the back.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> I see.<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong> You know it was one of those things that\u2013<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> I understand, yeah.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> So Jim\u2013 Jim told uh, Marceline [Jones] that uh\u2013 and I\u2013 I found out about this later, you know, that he said there were some\u2013 some black people coming and\u2013 and\u2013 and by God, he wanted them right up on the platform with him.<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong> He gave him their names, he gave him their names.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> And he\u2013 yeah, he\u2013 he told them specifically who they were, and by God, Marceline brought them right up there. Well, hit the serv\u2013 after the service, I mean, packed houses and uh\u2013 the\u2013 the\u2013 the\u2013 uh, the offerings were\u2013 were what uh, Jim at that point did not mess with money. You know\u2013 I mean (coughs).<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Yeah\u2013 Yeah, that\u2019s right, but what I\u2019m saying, he<\/em> never even took the offering. The Laurel Street Tabernacle took the offering and they took it back in their room, and they counted it and would tell him, and it\u2019d be (unintelligible word), you know, because we were stealing off of Jim Jones at that time. The reason I say \u201cwe.\u201d I was part\u2013 I was young people\u2019s leader that\u2013 and I was in on all of what went on, you know, on the money and all\u2013<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> They give him\u2013 they gave a salary or\u2013?<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> They give him a cut<\/em> of the offering supposed to be wacko\u2013<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> Yeah, so they told him\u2013<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> But it was wacko<\/em>.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> Yeah, I understand.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Okay. So\u2013 But right after that, when the black people got put up there on the (unintelligible word), right after that<\/em>meeting, we had a meeting, a board meeting. I was on the board being young people leader and<\/em> uh, they told Jim that, uh\u2013 or we<\/em> did, \u2018cause I was on the board, (unintelligible word) you know, you uh, you know uh, don\u2019t be uh, bringing the niggers on the front. I mean, it was sophisticated, but that\u2019s what\u2013 now don\u2019t bring the niggers up front. I\u2019ll tell you what we\u2019ll do. We\u2019ll build a church for the niggers, and you can minister them and then you can come and minister the white people. And Jim said, I\u2019ll have no part of that and (makes a sound of finality). Well\u2013<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> Did he leave the board meeting while it was\u2013 progress?<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> He walked it\u2013 Right, right. Yeah, he walked out<\/em> of that goddamn thing.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> What did you think about when he walked out? Was your\u2013 What was your reaction?<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> I thought he had a lot of goddamn guts, because here was a young guy, and well, you got to see the setting, Jim. Now Laurel Street Tabernacle was no goddamn shabby on the hill. This\u2013 this was a Bedford stone<\/em> brand new church, and everything in<\/em> it was brand new.<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong> And Jim was going to be the pastor.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> And he was going to be the pastor, and that\u2013 that constituted right off the bat about, uh, forty, fifty grand a year.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> In those days, that was a hell of a lot of money.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Hell yes<\/em>\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> \u2013in 1950?<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong> (laughs) God.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> I\u2013 I said, there\u2019s a guy with balls<\/em>, man, he\u2019s walking out of a\u2013 you know. But I\u2013 I\u2013 I didn\u2019t like their shit anyhow, uh, their operations, their clanny shit of keeping everything in one church, even in their cross town fellowship. You know there\u2013 there was\u2013 there was like uh, three\u2013 three songs and a dry fucking sermon and then how you should be\u2013 give honor to an old fucking man that was drying up and never said nothing in his life anyhow, you know?<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong> And then you had the baptism and\u2013<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Right, and beat all of that shit and then him take out his wrath on everybody that he didn\u2019t like in the goddamn congregation, scripturally<\/em>, you know. Uh, but\u2013 so soon as Jim walked out of there, they said, well, you\u2013 you said that somebody\u2013 they and (clears throat)\u2013 they was tired of Price anyhow, and so a hell of a fight broke out in the goddamn board meeting. And Price is there, the pastor.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> And Dycus, a fist<\/em> fight.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> A fist fight?<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> A fist fight.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> Who were they fighting over?<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Well, Jim.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t know this.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> Who fight who? I mean, who\u2013 (unintelligible under Beam)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Well, I\u2013 I\u2019m going\u2013 I\u2019m going to tell you this, that the thing was that uh, Price didn\u2019t want just any fucker coming in there and taking over on his retirement<\/em>, because he wanted his retirement guaranteed<\/em>.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> So he wasn\u2019t\u2013 (unintelligible under Beam)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> And\u2013 And his salary would be predicated\u2013<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> \u2013on the drawing power of who took his place.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> Right. So he wasn\u2019t going to be in the church, so he didn\u2019t really care who sat where. So he wanted Jim there.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> That\u2013 That didn\u2019t bother him at all, and he was insistent on a money winner, which Jim Jones was the front runner, you know. He could outpreach<\/em>, at that time. His social commentary and\u2013 and\u2013 and\u2013 and all of\u2013 everything that he said was relevant, and it made sense. And it would elec\u2013 uh, it would electrify people\u2013 uh, people that\u2013 and I mean he would wrap it in the scripture to such a way\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Yeah, and he would wrap it in such a way that (clears throat) you had to look<\/em> at it, you know, you had to look at it. And then, by God, you know, by looking at it, then he\u2019d heal your ass, and it was the Word being accompanied by signs and wonders, which was their scripture. They couldn\u2019t get away from it, but they didn\u2019t like that shit sitting by niggers, you see. All right. So a fight broke out and\u2013 and Price said, I insist on this man, he said God showed me, and\u2013 and Dycus as much as said fuck God, bam<\/em>\u2013 and\u2013 and took a swing at Price. And he\u2013 somebody said well\u2013 hey, he\u2019s an old man, he\u2019s put his life in this church, and Dycus said fuck\u2013 he didn\u2019t say fucking, but he said, well, let him go get a job like I did. He said\u2013 Oh boy. He said go let him get (unintelligible phrase) Let him go get a job like I did, he said, well, Brother Dycus said, you work on a railroad. He said, I don\u2019t care, let him work like I did. And\u2013 and then Hines woke up. (unintelligible sentence) He said, oh, when Jim Jones comes in here, my lights come out. In other words, he\u2019s gonna jerk the goddamn light fixtures out of the church.<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong> You remember how Dycus spelled his name?<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> D-y-c-u-s.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> They had a fight.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Yeah, they\u2013 they had a\u2013 they had the goddamndest fight, and then politics began to play and uh, so some of the young\u2013 young married people that had went to Springfield Religious College began to play politics, you see, and they wanted a\u2013 a Thorton, a William Thorton\u2013<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> \u2013to be their pastor.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> And uh, he was supposed to be a young (unintelligible word) man. In fact he come to California, and he was over in Kingwood a while. In fact he has a program right now, uh\u2013 You uh, you can be transformed by the renewing of your mind. That\u2019s the scripture in the Bible. But the name of his program over\u2013 over at KFAX is Renewal. He\u2019s got a program.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> Thorton?<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Yeah, William Thorton. Uh, but anyhow, uh, Willy Davie uh, come there and uh, uh, Jim was there and he was like saying that\u2013<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> You say Willy Davie, was that you\u2013 yours, or\u2013 or is that his?<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> I hate that buck-toothed motherfucker. Uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> Does anybody\u2013 Did he come across any of these preachers (unintelligible) because other people call him (unintelligible word)?<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> No, uh, uh, but\u2013 but what\u2013 what had happened, I do<\/em> know. I\u2019m not too clear on this, but uh, uh, Bill asked\u2013 he finally got the church. He got the church and we moved. Bill Thorton. He got the church for a while, but Bill got into trouble uh, with a young\u2013 young (unintelligible). Jim knows the full thing of that, and uh, I\u2013 I am pretty sure at one time\u2013 Thorton may know about this (unintelligible name) and\u2013 and\u2013 and goddamn Bill\u2019s wife went for Jim.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> This was many years later?<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> No, it was right around in the same time but \u2013<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> \u2013What happened at the board meeting?<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Oh. The rest of the board meeting uh, was that uh, uh, they\u2013 they started this politics thing. After that board meeting, then the politics got. They called in Bill and\u2013 and uh, and wanted\u2013 and wanted him, and\u2013 and they tried out another uh, minister there. And so uh, they called me on the\u2013 on the phone and uh, uh, wanted to line up, they was trying to line up both<\/em>, and wanted me to work, uh, you know, my campaign. Campaign to get him back. And uh, Rheaviana [Beam<\/strong>]\u2013Rheaviana then got pissed, and uh, she said to me, she said uh\u2013 And, I said uh, one\u2013 one reason I\u2013\u00ad I said I am a little dubious about right now is I know that they\u2019re all fighting in there and I don\u2019t give a shit what is going\u2013 really going \u00a0upstairs, and I said, there\u2019s a bunch of little kids (unintelligible phrase), and there had never been anybody to care about them too much, you know, they\u2019d run the streets, and we got them (unintelligible) and\u2013 and that sort of thing, and uh, they was kinda\u2013 she said look, (unintelligible word) from now on, (unintelligible phrase) and uh, we was going home after a hell of a fight and (unintelligible) and the following\u2013 the following week. In the meantime, Jim and Marceline went down and Marty or whatever they had and got a loan some way and\u2013 and got the church at Fifteenth and Delaware. Fifteenth and Delaware. Fifteenth and North New Jersey\u2013<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> Right around the same time this happened, or immediately after.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Oh yeah, oh yeah, because\u2013 because he had a hell of a\u2013 of a following<\/em> that he\u2013<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> He had to do something with.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Yeah, he had to do something with. So\u2013<\/p>\n

(Several exchanges, unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> Now, uh, did he ever preach in Indianapolis before?<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Yeah, down in Somerset.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> That only came later.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Right. But uh, the next Sunday we were on our way, and she said uh, she said, well, we\u2019re not going back there no more. I said\u2013 I said (unintelligible) She said look, the kids can come with us. And by God, (unintelligible) And so the next uh\u2013 That afternoon uh, we went, we went (unintelligible) didn\u2019t even go home. We didn\u2019t even go home, \u2018cause Jim was uh\u2013 they hadn\u2019t got the thing settled on Fifteenth and New Jersey yet, and there was a little place over on Hoyt Street, that uh, they were holding service, and she said let\u2019s go over there. She said uh, they\u2019re\u2013 they\u2019re a young couple and uh, uh, you know, I like them. I said I do too, you know, and uh, uh, but I was still a racist (unintelligible) and uh, so we went in there and we went over to Hoyt\u2013 we didn\u2019t even (unintelligible) over on to Hoyt Street where they were holding service, and uh\u2013 Yeah, Hoyt and Randolph, and uh, I went in there, and uh, sit down (too soft) Edith Cordell (unintelligible) I don\u2019t know how old she was at that time. In her nineties, I think. You couldn\u2019t hardly. I can\u2019t remember. She said she loved Jim. I don\u2019t know where she sit next to him. (unintelligible; too soft).<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> (too soft)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Oh. Okay. Anyhow\u2013 but anyhow, she just loved him, and\u2013 and uh, she asked if he was the mayor, and Edith was\u2013 Edith said, but you\u2019re sick. She said, I don\u2019t care, I want to go see him. And uh, David sit down there, and I don\u2019t know all of what\u2013 what was said and everything, but that was the first time. There was a drinking fountain back (too soft).<\/p>\n

(several exchanges too soft for minute)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> And uh, I went in there with Wright. Wright, uh\u2013 Gibson? Frank Gibson? (unintelligible) shit out a growth. Uh\u2013 You know, he couldn\u2019t even\u2013 somebody was gonna flush it and you couldn\u2019t even get it down the toilet. Awful\u2013 awful goddam growth come out of that guy. Remember they had a trailer park down on the west side of\u2013 (unintelligible under woman)<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> Oh, yeah.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Gil\u2013 Price Gilbert, or Gilbert Price? Gilbert Price<\/strong>. Okay. But anyhow, uh, he\u2013 he followed Jim a long time. (unintelligible) He had trouble with black folk, him and his\u2013 his wife and their son, they was\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> You\u2019d say this is true of a lot of people that he healed, right?<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Oh yeah.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> They\u2013 they were torn up because they were raised (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Right. Right. You\u2013 you\u2013 you\u2013 you seen it in here the other night. False pride.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> They wanted their lives. They wanted their health.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Well, and then uh, we was there\u2013 uh, we was there and then moved into the uh, Fifteenth and North New Jersey, and uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> How big\u2013 How big would you say the church was back in the\u2013<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> \u2013there was two wings on it, plus the main auditorium.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> The main auditorium (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> We had\u2013 we\u2013 we had uh, (soft) Uh, uh, it\u2019d comfortably hold about five (unintelligible word), you know, (unintelligible) and then we had a basement full of, you know, full of Sunday School (unintelligible word)<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> Which church is this now?<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Fifteenth and North New\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> He started this whole (unintelligible) What year, do you remember? Fifty\u00ad-what?<\/p>\n

(unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> It\u2013 It\u2013 Yes it is, yes, it is, yes, it is. I know it is. Maybe it ain\u2019t. Remember I bought that brand new 1958 Plymouth\u2013 in the\u2013 in the young people\u2019s service (unintelligible)?<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> (unintelligible) 1958.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> I\u2013 I know that, but I\u2019m trying to put it in\u2013 This was about \u201954 or \u201955. That\u2019s what I\u2019m trying to\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> Okay.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> \u2018Cause we was there, what, about three years at New Jersey?<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> Think of how old\u2013<\/p>\n

(women too soft)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Huh? Yeah. Yeah, well, I\u2019m trying to think. We started a uh\u2013<\/p>\n

(exchanges too soft)<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> How about [Marceline] LeTourneau?<\/p>\n

(People talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> There was some that left.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Oh, yeah. Eva Pugh? Eva Pugh was Eva what then.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> Jackson.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Eva Jackson, right, right. Uh, Ralph, her husband. But uh\u2013 Uh, John (unintelligible name)<\/p>\n

(too soft for several exchanges)<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> So this was kind of like a\u2013 a test of the whole Laurel Street congregation.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Yeah, that made the transition? Uh, uh\u2013 there was LeTourneau, uh, uh, Eva, uh\u2013<\/p>\n

(too soft for several exchanges)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Yeah, Brad\u2013 Bradley never was Laurel Street.<\/p>\n

(Audio suddenly improves)<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> That would be when\u2013 when he started church over on Fifteenth and Bellridge. His congregation began to grow fairly quickly, or were\u2013 were you still in this Dogpatch area?<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Oh\u2013 Oh, yeah. Well, it\u2013 it was growing, but uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> \u2013it wasn\u2019t in the Dogpatch area.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> No. We were\u2013 We were downtown then, on\u2013 on\u2013 well, on the what they call the East Side. See, we went from the South Side to the East Side, and uh, it\u2013 it\u2013 it was growing uh, just a little bit. Uh, a\u2013 a lot\u2013 a lot happened in that three year span. I think it was about three years that we was there. Uh, his ministry was being heralded all over at that time, his healing power\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> It was all over the world.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> And offers were coming in from everywhere. Uh, Kuhlman come there while we were there, Kathryn Kuhlman, and uh, she tried to get him to go with uh, her, uh, you know, still maintain our church, but I mean, go on the\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> Tour\u2013<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> \u2013tour, yeah. Uh\u2013 Oh\u2013 In between \u2013 I missed a part, maybe Marceline may have got this \u2013 in between, I\u2019m thinking back now, in between the transition from Laurel Street to\u2013 to Hoyt, uh, you know, I\u2013 I\u2013 I was talking\u2013 it\u2013 it was like with just, boom, boom, boom, but there was a time that Jim had uh, been contacted for O\u2013 O.L. Jaggers\u2013<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong> Right!<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Did you tell that part?<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong> No, I didn\u2019t. We came out to Califor\u2013 We went out to California to hold a meeting\u2013<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. He\u2019d contacted him, and\u2013 and guaranteed Jim a hell of a price.<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong> Several thousand dollars a week, and I don\u2019t know\u2013<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Yeah. Several thousand dollars a week. Jim come out, and the first night, Jim walked\u2013 uh, was in backstage, and he\u2013 he saw how Orval treated his dad\u2013<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> Jaggers?<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> How\u2013 how Orval Jaggers treated his own dad, and Jim and her got on the plane and come home.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> They didn\u2019t even stay for the\u2013?<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong> He refused to (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> What was he did\u2013 What was he doing\u2013<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> He\u2013 He was unkind, he was a\u2013 he was a\u2013 unfeeling, humiliated his father. And that\u2019s the same prick that was in\u2013<\/p>\n

(Tape edit)<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> Jaggers never heard Jim preach before he invited him.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Hah?<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> Jaggers never heard Jim preach before he invited him. Just heard by reputation.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> But his uh\u2013 The\u2013 the effectiveness of his\u2013 of his healing ministry. Uh, then he come back and then that other thing fall into place (voices fade)<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Well\u2013 well, I\u2019m saying, yeah, that\u2013 that fell (unintelligible word) And\u2013 then I said Kathryn Kuhlman come at that time, I\u2019m trying to think of the goddamn uh, one that Penny [Kerns] called a son-of-a-bitch. (unintelligible) in Ohio. What was that fucker that sucked the girl on the\u2013 on the Sunday School table\u2013 and his\u2013 and his Sunday school superintendent caught him, and they throwed his ass out. And Jim took him in, uh, you know, said that uh\u2013 You know the church I\u2019m talking about, hon? It was a Oneness church.<\/p>\n

(voices too soft)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> But anyhow, there was a whole congregation\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> (too soft)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> No, he was a white<\/em> guy, but he had uh, uh\u2013<\/p>\n

(exchanges too soft)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Anyhow, uh, trying to fill in the name. Jim took him in and let him use our church, uh, uh, on a\u2013 on an off night to hold his meetings, and\u2013 but\u2013 but this man had ridiculed Jim and talked about Jim horribly on the radio. It was an example of uh, really turning your other cheek. You know, this guy \u2013 I\u2013 I can\u2019t think of his name right now \u2013 but he had done everything that was uh\u2013 and Jim had said this man will have to uh, you know face this\u2013 this thing, and the whole thing was over black people.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> (unintelligible) Jim had asked for what?<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> For interracial church, uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> Really? He did? On the race issue?<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Yeah. Huh?<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> On the race issue?<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Yeah, he would preach sermons like uh, you know, God made all kinds of chickens, speckled ones, white ones and black ones, uh\u2013 Now if he wanted them to be the same, he said, they\u2019d all get in the same chicken yard, he said, you wouldn\u2019t know what was happening in your hen house. Yeah, that kind of stupid (unintelligible word) sermon\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> (unintelligible) chickens do make that\u2013<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> I know that. But what makes a difference when you got a (unintelligible word) going, you know. But anyhow, this character got caught sucking a young girl, his secretary on the\u2013 on the Sunday School table in the basement of his own church, and his own congregation\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> His own congregation at the time\u2013<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Yeah, caught him, and of course, the church was split down the goddamn middle, and uh, this man was being\u2013 was gonna be\u2013 be run out of goddamn town on a rail. And he had nobody to befriend him but the very man that he ridiculed, which was Jim Jones, and he said, even though you (fades)<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Hah? No, in our church<\/em>. He was allowed to come in there and hold meetings which his little (unintelligible word) assed congregation that had come with him. Evidently they were (unintelligible word) members\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> And what church was that at, now?<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> It was the\u2013 It was the United Pentecostal Church.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> (unintelligible) Holiness Church, it was Jim\u2019s church\u2013<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> No, it was not. Our church<\/em> at Fifteenth and Delaware is where he allowed him to bring\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> How long did that go on for?<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Uh, for about uh, uh, uh, maybe a month and a half or two (unintelligible word) this motherfucker got his second wind and then he landed and then\u2013 right back, you know. (unintelligible) That was one of the things, uh\u2013 Then, we had a parsonage with them, and uh, we fixed that up. And I moved into the parsonage and uh\u2013 and uh, maintained, because the boiler and everything there. But the race issue was getting hotter and hotter at that time. And\u2013 and people would come, and by God, uh, they would just uh, do everything, and Jim would uh\u2013 Jim was just really preaching scorching sermons on uh, out of one blood, God made all nations, do you really want to face (unintelligible), how can you love God whom you have not seen and not let\u2013 you know, the whole racial thing from the biblical standpoint, boom boom boom, and these suckers just stay like to get healing, and pour out the door, and Jim would just work \u2018til he fall on his\u2013 on his face.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Right. At that time we had went through every black house in Indianapolis<\/em> and knock on their door, and invited them to church, if they had no church affiliation.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> Now\u2013 now\u2013 now, uh, Jim felt that this\u2013 Jim did this because basically he wanted you guys to count the congregations\u2013<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> \u2013but he also kinda was sick about the way these people was acting\u2013<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Oh, yeah, he would tell \u2018em. He would tell \u2018em. Uh\u2013 uh, yeah, you know, he\u2013 he\u2013 and uh, he\u2013 he would finally get\u2013 get frus\u2013 well, you know, he would get, God damn it, you know, and what he wanted to say, but they was religious people, God damn it, you want the fuckin\u2019 healing, well, stick your fucking money up your ass<\/em> if you don\u2019t love these black people. That\u2019s what\u2013 he really want\u2013 and he\u2019d have find it in all loving, you know, uh, biblical words, what\u2013 that\u2019s why his health is, you know\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Yeah. Well, there was other things I need to feed into you at this point of uh, what happened. Uh, I went down to fire the boiler there one night, and it was a hopper type, boiler where you put your coal in a hopper, and the damn thing augered it into the\u2013 you know, it\u2013 it would feed itself all night long, you know. And when I opened up the hopper to put more coal in there, some motherfucker had put two big sticks of dynamite in there, which, if it had got down there in that auger (unintelligible word) under pressure, if it\u2019da pressured them things right in there and when they get that hot blast, it\u2019da blowed that whole fucking corner off (unintelligible word). And uh, on that corner\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> (unintelligible) it was a time when all those people were at church<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Yeah! And I just went down to check it, you know. I don\u2019t know why I went down to check it. I do know why, but I don\u2019t know why, do you know what I mean?<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> Yeah, I know what you mean.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> I\u2013 I mean, like, I\u2013 I\u2013 I\u2019m going\u2013 I\u2019m all dressed up in a suit, and for no reason I would go down, but I did, and I saw it, and I come up and I told Jim. And then we cleared the people out, so we could check around and see what the fuck else they (unintelligible).<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> And these were people who you met and people who had heard him speak and uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

(women unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Yeah. \u2018Cause they didn\u2019t like it. Uh, uh, what was that church before? Yeah, Latter day Saints. Uh, Seventh-day Adventists.<\/p>\n

(unintelligible exchanges)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> No, they had had. Uh\u2013 It had been a Seventh-day Adventist Church.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> Oh, I see, I see. So maybe they thought the church was being defiled and desecrated.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Well, the neighborhood thought, goddamn, this is no way to have church. You\u2019re supposed to go in there and praise him and (unintelligible) get your ass out and go home, yeah. And you don\u2019t have no goddamn racial riots on the goddamn corner, you know, people saying you know\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Yeah. And\u2013 and\u2013 and over a loudspeaker, and you know how Jim speaks, and \u201cHe who does not love a black man must burn eternally in hell.\u201d (unintelligible) \u201324 hours dong something.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Side 2<\/strong><\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Uh, Fifteenth and North New Jersey, uh, where we just finished that on the other side of the tape, uh, uh. As I said, uh, it was very hard for the neighborhood to comprehend uh, what had really taken place, uh, but we were getting quite a bit of resistance, and uh, people would like to, at\u2013 at that time, uh, the healing ministry uh, was uh, going uh, real good, and the\u2013 uh, uh, Jim at that time had uh, started uh, pacing himself uh\u2013 in other words, everything that he picked up, he\u2013 he, uh, uh\u2013 only if it was uh, uh, detrimental\u2013 uh, I mean, uh, not detrimental, but if it\u2013 if it was a lifesaving factor. In other words, if people had cancers or cataracts so they could go blind, or\u2013 or something like that, I mean, headaches and maybe uh, little\u2013 little\u2013 little other things he didn\u2019t do it, but uh, the healing lines\u2013 uh, not the healing lines, but the calling out and uh, all the manifestations that uh, he would uh, talk about, the taking care of people\u2019s lives was uh, tremendous<\/em>, and uh, so the people uh, would come for that, and\u2013 and he would uh, just exhaust<\/em> himself. In that\u2013 in\u2013 in that way, uh\u2013 But before he would do that\u2013 before he would do that at that time, he would\u2013 uh, he was intensifying the social message at that time, and\u2013 and bring in the uh\u2013 the aspects of socialism through the gospel, and uh, a\u2013 a progressive uh, uh, uh, doctrine as (unintelligible word) I saw it at that time, as uh, removing people\u2019s uh, expectations from uh, a heaven and to a here and now. And uh, uh, a lot of the uh\u2013 the scriptures that uh\u2013 that he used at\u2013 at\u2013 at that time, you know, uh, uh, like the 23rd<\/sup> Psalm, or\u2013 or sermon\u2013 uh, I mean, 23rd<\/sup> Psalm, Our Father, which art in heaven, hallowed be thy<\/em> name, thy<\/em>kingdom come, thy<\/em> will be done, in earth<\/em> as it is in Heaven. Uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Man: <\/strong>That\u2019s the Lord\u2019s Prayer, that isn\u2019t the 23rd<\/sup> Psalm. (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Yeah\u2013 Uh, you\u2019re right. Well, that\u2013 that shows you how long I forgot it. That is the Lord\u2019s Prayer, but uh, uh, the thing that uh, took place that he was\u2013 he was bringing them to, there was a responsibility now, and you could not use an escape<\/em> program of heaven to\u2013 to uh, bring about any social change, or bring about any change at all, uh, because uh, uh, we had been conditioned in the Temple, (unintelligible word) to uh, uh, to always put off, you know, uh, things cannot always be this way, they will get better, you know, uh, or uh, Jesus will undertake our uh, uh, uh\u2013 one of the great uh, things that things that was (unintelligible word) that day, you know, God\u2019s will be done. Well, God\u2019s will was always being done, uh, \u2018cause God could never be a liar, uh, to a Christian, uh, and there was just some awful things uh, uh, that happened, uh, uh\u2013 We uh, uh, moved on then and uh, our\u2013 \u2018cause our crowds were getting so big and our Sunday School was so big at that time. As I said before, we had contacted other black families in the city of Indianapolis\u2013<\/p>\n

Man: <\/strong>Was the congregation mostly black at this time, or mostly white?<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Uh, it uh\u2013 it was getting more black, uh, uh, because the people that had followed uh, Jim for the healing ministry had seen uh, uh, that uh, he intended to have a uh\u2013 a social gospel that uh\u2013 that uh, took in everyone and there was no uh, uh\u2013 no elite place for the white uh, structure of Indianapolis.<\/p>\n

Man: <\/strong>How many\u2013 how\u2013 What\u2013 How would you like to\u2013\u00ad I mean, like, what percentage of the healing crowd were able to also take the social gospel? And what percentage of them got\u2013 (unintelligible under Beam)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> It was\u2013 It was very uh\u2013 I\u2013 I was a\u2013 We had a 2:30\u2013 uh, a 2:30 uh, meeting in the afternoon on Sunday afternoon, and people from all over the city would come. They\u2013 they went to their regular churches on Sunday morning, but they would come to our meetings on Sunday afternoon, just for the healing, and Jim had a tremendous job to do, to try to uh, un-Christianize<\/em> uh, from\u2013 from their different doctrinal standpoints, because you had the\u2013 the Oneness Pentecost and the Trinity Pentecost, and you had all your other persuasions there in Indianapolis that uh, uh, were uh\u2013 were fighting one another, but uh\u2013 on uh, on doctrinal points out of the Bible, and here come a man uh, doing manifesting, doing what they had talked about on both of their\u2013 or both of their sides, whether they be uh, one with (unintelligible name, Gar Tremedy?), and yet none of them had the evidence of uh, what they were\u2013 what they were preaching about. They said if you believe on Jesus Christ, uh, uh, and\u2013 and uh\u2013 you would be saved, uh, and uh, then uh, all of these things uh, would follow after the healings and\u2013 and uh, uh, the manifestation of the Spirit and the gift of the Holy Ghost, but none of them could do what Jim was doing at that time, and they were in awe. Uh, they would like to kill him, but uh, they thought that uh, uh, they would be touching God\u2019s anointed, and uh, at that time uh, uh, that was one of the uh, uh\u2013 one of the scriptures that was used, touch uh\u2013 touch not my anointed, do my prophets do harm. Uh, uh, and they would\u2013 they\u2013 they would be in awe, that\u2013 but uh, doctrinally, they thought uh, we were (unintelligible word)\u2013 but they could not, they could not uh, uh, say a thing about the manifestation of the Spirit, uh, as they called it at that time\u2013<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> (unintelligible word) the doctrinal points that messed them up, was that still the Social Gospel basically, or was it the fact that he didn\u2019t emphasize that the uh, uh\u2013 the last things in your blood and (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Well, he\u2013 he\u2013 he said uh, uh, uh\u2013 (Pause) (unintelligible) would be done away with, so he was doing a perfect work, you see, and uh\u2013 and so it (unintelligible word) him, uh, and\u2013 and he said uh, uh, when that\u2013 when\u2013 when that day uh, appeared, and it had appeared, because he was doing it, uh, (unintelligible word) uh, laying on of hands, uh, the eternal judgment, the damnations of bad persons\u2013<\/p>\n

Man: <\/strong>Did they accept that?<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Uh, they were having a hell of a time with it, so they uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Yeah, but, they could not\u2013 they could not question the healing<\/em>, because they were<\/em> real, you see, and they were uh, uh, from\u2013 from\u2013 from where they were, where they were coming from, uh, uh, he was outperforming anything with all<\/em> of their traditional doctrine points, were doing so much uh, manifesting the Spirit, and uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Man: <\/strong>But from a doctrinal standpoint, they had to accept the healings, but there was contradiction with what they believed in scripturally.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

Man: <\/strong>And then let them go and try to (unintelligible) other services?<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Oh, yeah. Yes, yes. Uh, when they could not uh, uh, duplicate it, uh, in\u2013 in any uh, way, shape nor form\u2013 and then we had people that\u2013 that came in, uh, that uh, joined us, uh, that uh, would fall out. They\u2013 they said they had gifts, but uh, uh, Jim could always uh\u2013 None of \u2018em could ever\u2013 ever do any\u2013 anything uh\u2013 I think of an Elmo Miller, stay to fight all the time, because he was so jealous of what Jim was doing, he was kind of a glorified little Pentecostal hole-in-the-wall preacher in an old storefront, and uh\u2013 and then we had uh, all types of people come in and uh, uh\u2013 uh, trying to uh, get him uh, where they could study under him, like uh\u2013 like uh, oh\u2013 who would be running\u2013 uh, what\u2013 what they would try to uh, do and see if he\u2013 uh, David Ketch [phonetic] \u2013 how he was uh, uh, doing these things, you know, all\u2013 all\u2013 all they could ever pick up, and what\u2013 what would really aggravate them beyond measure was uh, the fact that uh, Jim was an honest person, speaking from his heart, and living up to the highest, as he knew it at\u2013 at each given time\u2013<\/p>\n

Man: <\/strong>Yeah\u2013<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> \u2013and they would get mad<\/em> at that, uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> Were they stuck on\u2013 They were\u2013 they were looking for just a way to learn about Jim, they were looking for a gimmick, were they looking for his style, were they\u2013 What were they looking for?<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Uh, uh, looking for uh\u2013 I\u2013 I\u2013 I would say, uh, what he\u2019d done and how he was getting in contact with God.<\/p>\n

Man: <\/strong>How would you learn that by watching someone? I mean, what is it?<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> I\u2013 I\u2013 I really don\u2019t know. People would ask me dumb questions because uh, I was one of the associates, uh, you know, uh\u2013 (unintelligible name, sounds like \u201cBetty Gill\u201d), Elmo Miller and uh\u2013 and\u2013 and some of these\u2013 these things and uh, I said uh, you know, they would ask me, uh, well, you\u2019ve known Jim for a long time, how does this uh\u2013 how does he do that? I said, well, I don\u2019t know how he does uh, (unintelligible word) anything, uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Man: <\/strong>What\u2013 what specifically would he say, when some of them really blew their mind? What kinds of things that really were beyond the ordinary healers of\u2013 (unintelligible word) that uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Uh, the\u2013 the things\u2013 uh, things that uh, he\u2013 he could uh, know the most uh, devastating thing on you, uh, that would be most embarrassing if it would be brought out. And uh, he\u2019s always worked with uh\u2013 with the outcast and\u2013 and people that had been in trouble. And even some of these people that profess to be so\u2013 so loving and so kind and so\u2013 so God<\/em>-based, had been in trouble, had been uh, in uh, situations, uh, uh, like\u2013 like I told you of the Reverend Huntington that uh, had uh, uh\u2013 had intercourse with his Sunday School uh,\u00ad younger Sunday School uh, secretary, on the uh\u2013 on the\u2013 on the table in the basement of the church and got caught. Uh. But this man had ridiculed us on the air and done all sorts of things like that, and Jim<\/em> knew about him, knew\u2013 knew about his situation, uh\u2013 however this gift works, know many things about him. Yet he did not expose him, uh, till they said, he got caught<\/em>, is what\u2013 what (unintelligible name) said, but Jim opened up the church and the facilities and uh\u2013 in other words, he fulfilled this\u2013 the Scriptures that the people thought, he would fulfill it for them, like uh, uh\u2013 you know, if your brother\u2019s caught in a fall, don\u2019t condemn him, but\u2013 but help<\/em> him. And that\u2019s what Jim would do, like open up his system, allow\u2013 \u2018cause the man got kicked out of his own church, had nowhere to go, and uh\u2013 and they opened up the doors, and uh, he demonstrated<\/em> a Christlike spirit<\/em>, and\u2013 and uh, it\u2013 it uh, made me uh, made me very aware of uh, uh\u2013 if these people really did believe in Jesus the way they said he did, you know, and the guy knew uh, anything at that\u2013 uh, at that particular, I thought, if Jesus Christ had come walking down the goddamn street right, these people that say they believe in him would turn around and kill him<\/em>, because of the works that he\u2019d done, you know, so uh\u2013 the uh\u2013 the\u2013 the kindness, the\u2013 the fulfilling of uh, of uh, uh\u2013 George Weathers, I think, the guy\u2019s name. Jim and Marceline uh, was\u2013 was\u2013 was trying to finish up school, uh, themselves, and\u2013 and\u2013 and carry on uh, the church. Uh, Marceline was working a lot of hours, and\u2013 and so was Jim, and\u2013 and\u2013 and uh, they were both going to school. And uh, they was helping the Weathers through\u2013 through college, uh, he was going to be a lawyer, I think. And this man turned around and\u2013 and\u2013 and called Jim Beelzebub, called him the devil, uh, uh, uh, ridiculed and\u2013 and\u2013<\/p>\n

Man: <\/strong>In what context did he (unintelligible word), publicly or\u2013<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Yeah\u2013 well, in\u2013 in my<\/em> presence, and\u2013 and certainly uh, of friends<\/em>, and\u2013 and it was one of the\u2013 one of the uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Man: <\/strong>Was he a (unintelligible word)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> No\u2013<\/p>\n

Man: <\/strong>Why did he\u2013<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> But there was an interracial marriage. He was married to a white woman, and uh\u2013 uh, but uh, certainly if uh, anybody was going to be defeated uh, that would be a\u2013 a defeating uh, situation, it seems like when you had went all<\/em> out uh, for a man, uh, then\u2013 then he turn around and treat you like that, but it\u2019s a\u2013 uh\u2013 it\u2013 it\u2013 it uh\u2013 where it would react, say, on me and you, with\u2013 with\u2013 with vile and\u2013 and one of the most uh, you know, say what the hell with that kind of situation, (unintelligible word), it seemed to\u2013 to me, it seemed that it turned Jim on to\u2013 to be more loving, more understanding, he couldn\u2019t guilt over that, he would always say or demonstrate<\/em>, it would seem like to me, though, well, what\u2013 what did I do<\/em> here that caused that man to feel that way and all\u2013<\/p>\n

Man: <\/strong>Well, what did he do?<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> I never thought he done anything, but\u2013 but be helpful.<\/p>\n

Man: <\/strong>No, what you were saying before was that the very thought of him being Jim Jones was the reason he was turning a lot of these people into uh, (unintelligible word), because they couldn\u2019t stand the goodness that he was demonstrating.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

Man: <\/strong>So how could he feel guilty about that? (Pause) I mean, did he ever\u2013 did he ever look beyond uh, uh\u2013 how can you not be good and then feel guilty about it? (unintelligible under Beam)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Well, I interpret him\u2013 I interpret him to being good. Evidently, Jim didn\u2019t think he had been good enough. That\u2013 that\u2019s the only way that I can explain it, you know, uh, because uh, uh, a lot of situations \u2013 I can\u2019t think of another one right offhand, uh, that\u2013 that would demonstrate that \u2013 but in\u2013 in every situation, he would re-examine the situation and always see, well, you know, I could\u2019ve done better about that.<\/p>\n

Man: <\/strong>Well, what is it, the one example that\u2013<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> I\u2013 I thi\u2013 I think so, but I\u2013 I\u2013 I never saw him do anything for the Weathers uh, but kindness. And\u2013<\/p>\n

Man: <\/strong>How was uh\u2013 Let me ask you this question. Was Jim known by the healers who were also well known?<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Uh, at that time\u2013<\/p>\n

Man: <\/strong>Did he get into healing of (unintelligible). Did he know about people like uh\u2013 [Kathryn] Kuhlman and uh, (unintelligible name under Beam)?<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Uh, yes, uh, but at\u2013 at\u2013 at that time, uh, Kathryn Kuhlman come uh, to Fifteenth and New Jersey and uh\u2013 and uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Man: <\/strong>So what time was that? What year was it roughly?<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Oh, you\u2019ll have to maybe ask (Pause) somebody else. Somewhere in that era. Uh, but uh, uh\u2013 Then, also uh\u2013 I told you. But right before this uh, even uh\u2013 (tape edit) Right after this situation in Laurel Street\u2013 did I take that up in that last tape?<\/p>\n

Man:<\/strong> (unintelligible) tradition in another church, (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Okay, uh\u2013 From the time that we left that until uh, he started the place over on Hoyt, he uh\u2013 he was contacted by O.L. Jaggers, which was a uh, big uh, healing minister, I think a Latter Day uh, minister uh, on the West Coast in Los Angeles. Uh, and I know that he had heard about Jim when we got into L.A.<\/p>\n

Man: <\/strong>Yes.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Uh\u2013 uh\u2013 But again, uh, there was principle. The man offered uh, I think it was something like uh, six thousand dollars for six meetings, and uh, (Pause) Jim didn\u2019t go with that purpose, but when he got out there, he offered him that. Uh\u2013 uh\u2013 (Pause) And uh, he saw that the way he treated his dad.<\/p>\n

Man: <\/strong>The way Jaggers treated his dad?<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Saw the way Jaggers treated his own father, and uh, he was so inconsistent with uh\u2013 with what was going on that Jim uh, turned the whole thing down and come back home back to Indianapolis, didn\u2019t\u2013 didn\u2019t have no meetings for him whatsoever. Uh\u2013 But uh, to get on down the road a little bit on this uh, uh\u2013 I kinda went back on that thing, but as\u2013 as I started to say, then Fifteenth and New\u2013 New Jersey, uh, it got to growing, and uh, we went to uh\u2013 uh, there was a synagogue at Tenth and Delaware that was for sale. And uh, so uh, another uh\u2013 uh, this is a good thing uh, to know even at\u2013 at that age then<\/em>, uh, uh, the uh\u2013 how frugal Jim was in his uh\u2013 in his dealings with money and taking care of the people\u2019s money. Uh\u2013 They uh, they uh\u2013 the\u2013 I forget the exact price that the\u2013 the temple was offered for, but anyhow, he uh, he made a deal, he said, well, if we pay for this \u2013 we met with the Jewish people \u2013 he said if we pay for this in a year, can we have it interest free, and they said yes. The rabbi says yeah. And Jim Jones, before the year out, the temple at Tenth and Delaware where it was paid for, uh\u2013 Uh, due to uh, all uh\u2013 there were things that uh, that went on in the nursing home, (unintelligible word) things that\u2013 but he managed them and he saw that we was able to get\u2013 get the money together and\u2013 and pay for that, uh, but uh, uh, I think uh, at uh, that<\/em> time, then we begin to uh, having the large crowds, uh\u2013 All<\/em> the time, all the time in both of these uh, at Fifteenth and uh, New Jersey, and Tenth and Delaware, Jim was working\u2013 most of \u2018em was working, and he was pastoring the uh, the\u2013 the\u2013 the church uh, and at the same time, him and I was doing a lot of traveling all over the state and over into Ohio, uh\u2013 uh, holding meetings and uh, in Cincinnati, just like before, in Eddie Wilson\u2019s, uh, uh, place, in uh, in Cincinnati. Uh, and he used to come over and speak at our place, uh, uh\u2013 This man got very upset over uh\u2013 His\u2013 his great falling out was over the social gospel, uh, the here-and-now, and uh, got tremendously jealous over his wife too, uh, uh, so it was just impossible for us to continue, uh, but uh, uh, the reason uh, I brought uh, Eddie Wilson up at uh\u2013 at this particular time, we were holding a meeting over there, and uh, we had taken our choir over there, and so uh, as always, Jim was trying to help out uh, everyone that he could in the meeting, and he was getting uh, a uh, very strong impression of something on\u2013 on uh\u2013 I\u2019m gonna have to think hard here, uh\u2013<\/p>\n

The thing that was uh\u2013 he was sitting was uh, was a little town on the highway where there was going to be an awful wreck, and uh, so uh, six of our people \u2013 I think it was six \u2013 uh, Jim\u2019s daughter Stephanie [Jones] uh, uh, Mabel uh, (unintelligible name) \u2013 this was Loretta\u2019s [Loretta Cordell], our organist\u2019s mother, uh, Dallas\u2013 I\u2019m trying to think of her last name \u2013 uh, three of our black sisters, and they had a young\u2013 another young boy in there. But anyhow, people were making a lot of noise, and he was trying to get people to quiet down so he could (unintelligible word) this, but anyhow, the people went on out and uh, a drunk man in a station wagon crossed the line and hit \u2018em head-on and killed all of them in the car except the young uh, lad, and he was thrown out in uh\u2013 He was the only one that survived out of the uh, out of the car, and uh, uh, so uh\u2013 (Pause) It was a terrible shock, a terrible loss to the congregation uh, but I know that uh, Jim was insisting that uh, his people be taken care of, and they wanted to take our black people and bury them in the lower part of the graveyard where the water run off, and it was a uh, uh\u2013 oh, a very, very traumatic time, uh, uh\u2013 At\u2013 at\u2013 at\u2013 at that time, uh, (unintelligible word) Jim and Marceline and\u2013 but they said, but Reverend Jones, uh, we\u2019ll bury your daughter up on the hill with the\u2013 with the other\u2013 with the white folks, but she was Oriental, and he said no, he said, if all of my people can\u2019t be buried up there, then bury my child down there where the uh, water runs off. And\u2013 and this is uh, uh, going back a little bit, if you wanted to know uh, why uh, people could not take that\u2013 take that, he was a staunch, real uh, disciplined egalitarian, and he never deviated uh, from\u2013 from that, and uh, I think that uh, every minister, so they could sleep (unintelligible word) by night, \u2018cause they knew he had the goods and uh, they knew there was sincerity and honesty and integrity<\/em>, and they\u2013 they would\u2013 they would, like Nicodemus, they would \u2013 they would sneak out and try to contact to Jim at night, \u2018cause they didn\u2019t want their congregation to know, they knew\u2013 they knew that they had come in contact with Principle, and uh, uh\u2013 but uh\u2013 and he could point out things to \u2018em, and they said that they\u2013 they did not agree uh, uh\u2013 I mean, they agreed uh, in the errors of the Bible and\u2013 and many things like that uh, but<\/em> they did not uh, choose to allow their congregation to\u2013 to know these things, because they said it would interfere with the offerings and uh, uh, Jim always worked, and he took no salary, uh\u2013 That was one of the big uh, thorns in their side that they could not uh, accept uh\u2013 Uh, but the fact that uh, he stood by what was right, and uh, always demonstrated Principle uh, that uh, these people could not uh\u2013 could not deal with. Uh\u2013 (unintelligible word, could be \u201cWeathers\u201d) church uh, continued to grow uh, and we was getting more black people. Now the uh\u2013 at Tenth and Delaware that started to change then, uh, uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Man: <\/strong>(unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Yes, uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Man: <\/strong>(unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Uh, now, he\u2019s just getting ready to go\u2013 or maybe it\u2019s right around\u2013 I\u2019m not too sure about the dates on this, but he had taken a job for Charley Boswell, which was the mayor of Indianapolis, Indiana, and he formed the Mayor\u2019s Commission for Human Rights. Jim was the first one on that. He opened up the police force, Bell Telephone, he integrated uh\u2013 he took on Bell Telephone, and he integrated the Indianapolis police department, uh, uh, he integrated Methodist Hospital. Uh\u2013 He had had a uh\u2013 a situation that uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Man: <\/strong>I know the story but (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Yeah, okay. So you\u2019ve got that. Uh\u2013 But it was right around that time that uh\u2013 and uh\u2013 so the Chamber of Commerce (laughs) at that time, I\u2013 I forget what his salary was, but uh, it wasn\u2019t what they offered him, they offered him another job and a chance to be slingshotted on into Washington, and the job above, what they offered him was for doing nothing but getting out the way, for twenty-five thousand, I think.<\/p>\n

Man: <\/strong>(unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Yeah. That\u2019s right. Uh\u2013 So uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Man: <\/strong>How did he\u2013 how did he fit in the accident\u2013 (unintelligible) integrating the police department and so forth, was it\u2013 was it too much that he had to go along with it, to (unintelligible) to be trends of the time now (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Well, uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Man: <\/strong>Was he\u2013 Was he in (unintelligible word) time, or was he ahead of the times (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> I think uh, I think that he awoke uh, in\u2013 in a lot of people\u2019s minds uh, uh, that this was right. Uh, someone didn\u2019t have the guts to do it, and\u2013 and others were, uh, (stumbles over words) not only to do it, but not even attempt<\/em> it. Not even talk<\/em> about it. Uh\u2013 Indianapolis was uh, oftentimes referred to the n\u2013 the northernmost\u2013 uh, the northernmost Southern city uh, in the country.<\/p>\n

Man: <\/strong>Why is that?<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Well, you know, rednecks uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Man: <\/strong>(unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Yes, uh, but it had the mentality of the South<\/em>, but it was a northern city<\/em>, you see. And it said that it was uh, uh, the South\u2019s most northern city.<\/p>\n

Man: <\/strong>Yeah, I got you.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Uh, uh, but uh, uh, and uh\u2013 Well, you did have a lot of infiltration from Kentucky and Tennessee uh, uh, for the industrial uh, community uh, of Allison\u2019s and Link-Belts and uh, uh, Chrysler Corporation and Ford, uh, a lot uh\u2013 (unintelligible name) Meat Packing, (unintelligible name) Meat Pack\u2013 a lot of industrial uh, uh, sites there, uh, General Motors, uh, and for uh, the city uh\u2013 (unintelligible) redneck mentality uh, from the South, because they couldn\u2019t make a living down there, and it wasn\u2019t too far, it was only a hundred\u2013 about a hundred\u2013<\/p>\n

Man: <\/strong>(unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Oh. Yes, that\u2019s another thing. He sits on the bank and the lending agencies uh, because they\u2019d already uh, made a uh, a projection that uh, the blacks would go out Indiana Avenue and on out, and uh, uh, they had the real estate companies and everything else all tied up, and Jim tied into them<\/em>, that uh, there wouldn\u2019t be no money to loan on any property, only in certain areas, in\u2013 in that particular area, for black<\/em> people. And uh, the (unintelligible word) uh, he stirred up quite a few of their\u2013 a lot of threats. That\u2019s when the\u2013 when the uh, shit began to hit the fan, is uh, uh, when all of this\u2013 when all of this uh, begin to (unintelligible under woman)<\/p>\n

Man: <\/strong>He was\u2013 he was in the public eye then.<\/p>\n

Beam:<\/strong> Oh, yeah. Uh\u2013 About the same time, he\u2013 uh, he started a free restaurant in the base\u2013 in the uh\u2013 in one of the back rooms of the Temple\u2013 Temple. He even had a neon sign, you know. Anybody that wanted to uh\u2013 wanted to uh, have a free meal, you know, they could come in there, and we\u2013<\/p>\n

End of tape<\/strong><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you. To return to the Tape Index, click here. To read the Tape Summary, click here. Listen to MP3. (Editor\u2019s note: This tape was transcribed by Seriina Covarrubias. The editors gratefully acknowledge her invaluable assistance. (This is the unedited version of this tape, as […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":8,"featured_media":0,"parent":27291,"menu_order":521,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-108354","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/108354","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/8"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=108354"}],"version-history":[{"count":7,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/108354\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":108478,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/108354\/revisions\/108478"}],"up":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27291"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=108354"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}