{"id":108358,"date":"2021-02-08T13:40:40","date_gmt":"2021-02-08T21:40:40","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=108358"},"modified":"2021-07-22T16:18:47","modified_gmt":"2021-07-22T23:18:47","slug":"q786-transcript","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=108358","title":{"rendered":"Q786 Transcript"},"content":{"rendered":"

If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n

To return to the Tape Index, click here.<\/a>
\nTo read the Tape Summary, click here<\/a>. Listen to MP3<\/a>.<\/p>\n

(Editor\u2019s notes<\/strong>: This tape was transcribed by both Seriina Covarrubias and Kristian Klippenstein, and we are grateful to both for persevering on such a difficult tape. <\/em><\/p>\n

(The audio on this tape is often hard to decipher, and combined with the fact that people speak over each other quite often, there are many notations of unintelligible speech. For those reasons, the editors recommend that listeners read the summary<\/a> first for context.<\/em><\/p>\n

(To help the reader navigate this tape, we have included the time cues on the MP3 as well.)<\/em><\/p>\n

Part I \u2013 Audio letter from Hue Fortson<\/a><\/strong><\/p>\n

Part II \u2013 Phone patch conversation between Maria Katsaris and her mother<\/a><\/strong><\/p>\n

Part III \u2013 Audio letter from Hue Fortson (conclusion)<\/a><\/strong><\/p>\n

<\/a>Part I \u2013 Audio letter from Hue Fortson<\/strong><\/p>\n

Hue Fortson:<\/strong> (speaks softly and slowly, with many pauses, much ambient noise) So I figured that, well, maybe that was just a way to let off some pressure. And I thought, too, said, Well, Hue, why was<\/em> I crying? Was I crying because I really liked having a\u2013<\/p>\n

(Voice fades, overwhelmed by ambient noise)<\/p>\n

\u2013that one was combination of things. Crying an\u2019 (unintelligible word) Took up your time, (1:00)<\/span> talkin\u2019 to you about (unintelligible word) situation. Then too, I was upset at myself because I\u2013 I wrote a nasty letter to Rhonda, which I shouldn\u2019t have did, but I wrote it on emotion rather than thinking it through, thinking it through, what her<\/em> reaction was going to be, how you were gonna have to deal with it, not me, \u2018cause I\u2019m over here. Just\u2013 I think, too, of things that you\u2019ve done to people in the past, and even now and uh, people just don\u2019t respond sometimes. Most of the time they do, but then again I guess when I want some respondent (2:00)<\/span> not necessarily who\u2019s talking to me but respondent to your principle of what you\u2019ve done the people (unintelligible) don\u2019t come across to me. They\u2019re under-responsive. So I wonder other times, I\u2019ve (unintelligible) (pause) I don\u2019t know, but that\u2019s one of the things I wanted to do too is to apologize to Rhonda (unintelligible) I wrote a letter just (unintelligible word) a letter, and uh\u2013<\/p>\n

So I\u2013 why I wrote the letter, (unintelligible word) TR (3:00)<\/span> and what I thought was happening, which may or may not be true, whatever it was. And I wrote the letter. Sent it off, along with the letter, I sent to you and the other letter I sent to Rhonda. (Pauses) And like I told her in the letter, I have great respect for her because she\u2019s a hard-working sister in the cause. And these last few months I guess you\u2019d say I don\u2019t know what\u2019s up. (4:00)<\/span> (unintelligible) may be more\u2013 may be\u2013 may be more resolute, more sensitive to other people\u2019s feelings. But\u2013 So you know you can\u2019t become more familiar with people\u2019s feelings until it comes home to roost (pause) after you\u2019ve<\/em> been hurt at other times. Or should I say, after you\u2019ve been hurt, you should<\/em> feel the feelings of problems, where they\u2019re coming from. (unintelligible) I don\u2019t know if I\u2019ve just grown up a little bit and (unintelligible) sometimes I\u2013 (5:00)<\/span> I\u2019m standing on two feet, (unintelligible) all I wanna just wiggle down and cry. Sometimes I don\u2019t know why, just feelin\u2019 so bad, my eyes tryin\u2019 to hold back tears reading the news thing\u2013 (unintelligible) Sometimes I\u2013 something I read in the newspaper, about, you know, somebody I don\u2019t even know about havin\u2019 problems, or gettin\u2019 killed, or gettin\u2019 messed up by the system. And all I (unintelligible word) do is sit there readin\u2019, and I\u2019ll have to bite it back in (unintelligible) some little thing on TV. (unintelligible word) on TV, could be just ten-minute blitz, (unintelligible words), going to (6:00)<\/span> tears. I don\u2019t know. I don\u2019t know what\u2019s happening. Whether I\u2019m crazy or what the hell\u2019s happening to me. (pause) I used to\u2013 I used to think myself to be a fairly independent person. I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n

These last few months really (unintelligible word) changed a lot of what I thought I had. I don\u2019t know. One thing to be independent is\u2013 is\u2013 and it\u2019s another thing to be independent and responsible. Whereas before I was\u2013 I used to say I was independent, but I wasn\u2019t responsible. But I didn\u2019t have much to be (7:00)<\/span> responsible for<\/em>, besides trash cans, sweepin\u2019 floors, startin\u2019 services at 7:30, things like that. But now it\u2019s\u2013 you know, it\u2019s a different program. Whereas before folks would look for me to do movement and like that, and now they look to me for other things. It\u2019s\u2013 Once again, it\u2019s just really scary to really realize that these people, (unintelligible word) most of these people depend on us for almost everything. And it\u2019s like having \u2013 it essentially is \u2013 it\u2019s like having somebody\u2019s life in your hands. (8:00)<\/span> And that\u2019s incredible. Awesome thing to think about. I don\u2019t know. (Pauses, clears throat) (unintelligible word)<\/p>\n

Other people\u2019s feelings (clears throat) (unintelligible) never stops, this\u2013 this person, that person, it\u2019s always after service, during the night, during the day, (unintelligible) things, just never stops. I can just see small gloves they put you in, uh, (9:00)<\/span> in being responsible for all of us, \u2018specially of the few over there tonight, different. There are a few (unintelligible word), small problem which you used to go through, I\u2019m not sure has not stopped \u2018cause (unintelligible).<\/p>\n

So I don\u2019t know. Then too, sometimes I find myself, and I get off of this thing I think about Rhonda and\u2013 Rhonda and the\u2013 her and the baby [Ishi]. We had a\u2013 had a long discussion, (10:00)<\/span> long discussion, each tryin\u2019 to ensure (unintelligible words). Talked it over two nights in a row. Long, long discussion. Decided that best not gonna happen now\u2013<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

But people been sayin\u2019 what they\u2019re gonna do, (unintelligible word) we decided we did seriously want to start a relationship (unintelligible word) we wouldn\u2019t\u2013 and the baby (unintelligible words) time I start a new one. (11:00)<\/span> That was really pathetic, the first time I cried, (unintelligible) I cried for about two hours. Just couldn\u2019t (unintelligible word) it now. Had to cry. Even though I knew it was the best thing to do, or I thought<\/em> it was the best thing to do. I don\u2019t know. Every once in a while (unintelligible) that comes out in a lie. But it\u2019s still too early, and sometimes I think (12:00)<\/span> about Ishi, and I know he\u2019s in the best place in the world, and that\u2019s why I think about him, and you know, not so much as, you know, talk to him on the radio or talk to him, and hear his little voice. I don\u2019t know, I guess it\u2019s just the visual thing sometime that does it to you. (unintelligible word) have that wonderful (unintelligible word) of him. I don\u2019t know. I\u2019m sure he\u2019s grown, changed drastically since the last time his picture was made\u2013 I don\u2019t know, it\u2019s five or six months ago. I don\u2019t know\u2013 Do I have a responsibility (unintelligible word)? \u2018Cause I am his daddy. I don\u2019t know. (13:00)<\/span> She said he talks about me, asks when I\u2019m coming over, sometimes I (unintelligible) I tell him it\u2019s (unintelligible words). Then his Momma says he\u2019s better off with them (unintelligible words). I don\u2019t know, time to think about what you doing.<\/p>\n

It\u2019s a combination of things goin\u2019 on, sometimes (unintelligible word) they don\u2019t quite agree with me or don\u2019t make me agreeable, but (pauses) I\u2019m stuck. I\u2019ll tell you that I was getting that old feeling again, (unintelligible word) I start blurtin\u2019 out, cryin\u2019, whatever. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s too good, doin\u2019 it in front of folks too much, \u2018cause I\u2019m sure they take it for weakness, so (14:00)<\/span> keep goin\u2019 on, pushin\u2019 on, and I\u2019m gonna\u2013 It\u2019s\u2013 Like I said earlier, about them (unintelligible) on the first birthday. Not that I (unintelligible) PI thing. But just my things, I\u2019ll make damn sure that the other folks have some feelin\u2019, the HPR funds come from up there. It\u2019s of little value to us in here, it\u2019s all (unintelligible) have some value for you, get some positive response from him, but as lately, as I said before, we ain\u2019t gettin\u2019 too much positive response. Or I<\/em>haven\u2019t gotten any, should I say, and it may be because of me. Probably they not knowing me, ain\u2019t that much. (15:00)<\/span><\/p>\n

So, that\u2019s really about it for now. (clears throat) Oh, I was just taped message, I taped the letter (unintelligible word) for now. So thank you for all the things that you\u2019ve shown me in the last few years, and especially in these last few months (unintelligible) here. All the things that you\u2019ve been talkin\u2019 about that I\u2019m able to see now, and all the things that you\u2019ve done for\u2013 for people. That\u2019s just more than words can describe. (16:00)<\/span> And I\u2019m not one to do any kind of fancy talkin\u2019, fancy speech. And I don\u2019t know, I really can\u2019t find the words to describe what I\u2019m really thinking, that thank you is adequate enough to\u2013 to express what should be said for what you\u2019ve done. And what you\u2019ve done<\/em>, even today, for countless people, what you\u2019ve done in the past for sure (unintelligible) almost seven years that I\u2019ve been here, what you\u2019ve done for (unintelligible words).<\/p>\n

(Recording ends, tape edit)<\/p>\n

(17:00)<\/span><\/p>\n

<\/a>(Side 2)<\/strong><\/p>\n

Part II \u2013 Phone patch conversation between Maria Katsaris and her mother<\/strong><\/p>\n

Unknown male<\/strong>: Testing, one, two\u2013<\/p>\n

Maria Katsaris: <\/strong>(speaks loudly and clearly throughout) (transmitting) Hi, who\u2019s this?<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris:<\/strong> It\u2019s Mom. How are you?<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) I\u2019m fine. How are you doing?<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris:<\/strong> Fine. I got your letter yesterday.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) Well, that\u2019s good. I\u2019ve been waiting to hear from you. How have you been?<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>I\u2019ve been fine, thank you. I\u2019m really sorry I haven\u2019t written\u2013 (unintelligible under radio static) But that\u2019s really not true. But I was just delighted to get your letter yesterday.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) Okay, Mom. You\u2019ll have to talk shorter, in\u2013 in shorter phrases and louder \u2018cause I can\u2019t (18:00)<\/span> hear you. I just heard that you got my letter, over.<\/p>\n

Rex:<\/strong> You have to talk slow.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>Oh, I have to talk slow.<\/p>\n

Rex:<\/strong> Yep.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris:<\/strong> Okay. I, uh\u2013 Well, I always feel damn awful on these things, you may as well know. And, uh\u2013 So where was I?<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>You, uh, you had some things at work\u2013<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>All right. Maria, I haven\u2019t written\u2013<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(not transmitting, speaks to others in Jonestown) Shh. You guys, I\u2019m having a hard time\u2013<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>\u2013because I\u2019ve had a lot of, oh, things going wrong at work with, you know, not (unintelligible) busy, but I\u2019m glad to (unintelligible) that you (unintelligible) wrote anyway. So I\u2019ll to do better.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) Roger. Well, I\u2019ll be looking forward to hearing from you. How\u2019s uh, my sister and brother doing?<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>Oh, they\u2019re doing fine. Uh. Let\u2019s see. I talked with, uh, well, both of them yesterday, and uh, they may be comin\u2019 down in a week or so, just for, you know, uh, the weekend.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) Oh, they\u2019re comin\u2019 down to see you. That\u2019s good. (19:00)<\/span> Listen, have you heard anything, uh, from my dad? Over.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris:<\/strong> No, we haven\u2019t heard anything from him for months. I won\u2019t uh, talk to him, I just hear through the kids. I don\u2019t talk to him (voice garbled under radio static and Maria speaking at transmitting end)<\/p>\n

Maria<\/strong>: (not transmitting, unintelligible) there seems to be something. (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris:<\/strong> I haven\u2019t talked to him for, oh, I bet it\u2019s three or four months.<\/p>\n

Rex:<\/strong> Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) Okay. Mom. Well, I\u2019m calling you\u2013 and this is kind of, I\u2013 you know, I hate to be calling you with this. It\u2019s very painful to me, and hard for me to talk about, but I think you\u2019ll be hearing about it sooner or later, because there\u2019s been a lot in the newspapers and on TV. Do you copy?<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>Yes?<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) Did you hear me? Over.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>Yes, I heard you.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) He is \u2013 along with some other people \u2013 starting some, uh\u2013 He\u2019s been in the paper, been on TV, and saying things \u2013 lies \u2013 about me not being able to come and go as I please, and lies that, uh, (20:00)<\/span> you know, I\u2019m not\u2013 I don\u2019t have my own free will. Are you hearing me? Over.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris:<\/strong> Yes, I\u2013 I\u2019m hearing you, Maria.<\/p>\n

Rex:<\/strong> Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) It\u2019s not true. It\u2019s not true, Mom, but I\u2013 I\u2019m surprised you haven\u2019t heard about it. I thought you\u2019d hear about it by now. But there\u2019s a reason<\/em> behind this. Do you copy?<\/p>\n

Rex<\/strong>: Copy.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>Uh, what you\u2019re saying\u2013 (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) I didn\u2019t hear if she said anything. Over.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) I didn\u2019t hear. Over.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>She said she\u2019s not sure of what you\u2019re saying. Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) I\u2019m saying that he is \u2013 along with some other people \u2013 trying to start some, so[me] uh, lies and starting trouble. He is saying that I, you know, cannot come and go as I please. He\u2019s angry because I did not want to see<\/em>him (21:00)<\/span> when he came earlier. It\u2013 That is a lie<\/em>. It\u2019s obviously<\/em> a lie when I have done business for the\u2013 you know, for the group I belong to, uh, on, you know, numerous occasions and done a lot of travelling on my own. Do you copy?<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>Yeah, I\u2013 I hear what you\u2019re saying. But I\u2019m (unintelligible) in touch with him. So I\u2019m\u2013 you know, whatever I hear is what I read in the papers and what I hear from you.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) Roger. Well. Uh\u2013 Let me explain, Mom. I have been on, uh, several times gone to the US Consulate here on business, and talked to the\u2013 to the uh, Consulate on my own alone. I\u2019ve travelled with him in his, uh, private plane alone. And if I had wanted to leave or, you know, had, you know, not been able to do what I wanted, I could\u2019ve told him at any time. Do you copy?<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>Yes, I understand that. But I am just hoping that (unintelligible under Maria\u2019s voice) when we can meet on a face-to-face basis, and, uh, discuss it then. That\u2019s when I\u2019ll really be able to understand.<\/p>\n

Rex:<\/strong> Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) Well, I under\u2013 I understand it\u2019s hard to talk on this medium. (22:00)<\/span> I understand that. But I want\u2013 I want you to, you know\u2013 I wanna tell you this and I want you to understand the situation, because I don\u2019t want you to worry about it, and I want you to know the whole story. Do you copy?<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>Yeah, uh, I\u2013 I\u2013 I hear what you\u2019re saying (static obscures words) you have to understand that I have to see you in person to (static obscures words) feel good about it. Uh, so you know, I (static obscures words) uncomfortable to do that. You have to understand a moth\u2013 your mother\u2019s anxiety.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) Okay, I didn\u2019t get all of that. But I think you\u2019re saying it would be easier for you to understand when you see me in person. Fine. Someday when I see you I\u2013 I will tell you, but for right now, I\u2019m gonna have to explain via this medium. The reason he\u2019s going into all this\u2013 and it\u2019s very painful, but I think you can tell from the sincerity of my voice, Mom\u2013 (23:00)<\/span> is that all during my childhood and up\u2013 in\u2013 in my middle teen years, he was molesting me. Do you copy?<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>No, Maria, I can\u2019t accept that.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(speaking more insistently) (transmitting) I know<\/em> you can\u2019t accept it! But it\u2019s traumatized me so many years it\u2019s\u2013 I think you know, from when I was in high school, Mom, and going to different therapists, and what I went through, there was some reason behind it, that he had me so traumatized<\/em>, I couldn\u2019t even talk<\/em> to anybody, and all these years I\u2019ve had to suffer the pain of it on my own, and I don\u2019t know why you can\u2019t understand that! (not transmitting) Bitch.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>Maria, uh, I do not understand this at all. That is not true. This is not (unintelligible under Maria)<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(not transmitting) I know, but he told me to sound sincere. I had to sound like my dad molested me. (unintelligible) (transmitting) Negative copy. (not transmitting) What\u2019d she say?<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris:<\/strong> (unintelligible) separated. (unintelligible word) But I find that really hard to understand what you\u2019re telling me. I\u2019m just shocked.<\/p>\n

Maria:<\/strong> (transmitting) What reason would I have to tell you that (24:00)<\/span> if it wasn\u2019t true? Over.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris:<\/strong> I would like to know when or where he took advantage of you\u2013<\/p>\n

Maria:<\/strong> (transmitting) What?<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris:<\/strong> \u2013for myself. There\u2019s been a lot of things about you that I (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Maria:<\/strong> (not transmitting) At home. (transmitting) (Incredulous tone) You want to know when and where he did it? (not transmitting) Kind of voyeuristic.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>(Voice garbled due to static) \u2013we made you both (unintelligible word) black and blue (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) I\u2019m not sure what you\u2019re saying.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>You\u2019ve got to be kidding. You\u2019re not sure what I\u2019m saying. I\u2019m telling you that what you have said there is a rash accusation that I don\u2019t take lightly. You\u2019re going to have to tell me when and where, the circumstances\u2013<\/p>\n

Maria:<\/strong> (not transmitting) (sigh) Oh my God. She doesn\u2019t believe me.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) Mom. I love you very much, but what reason would I have to lie about something like that? Nobody<\/em>would make that up. I know<\/em> it\u2019s hard to believe. Why do you think I never said anything all these years? I wouldn\u2019t expect any\u2013 (clears throat) expect (25:00)<\/span> anybody to believe it. You remember yourself when you were with him, you always used to say that you could never win an argument with him, \u2018cause he can convince anybody of anything. He can look you right in the eye, and you\u2019d think he was the model of virtue! (not transmitting) I skipped all over the place.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>(radio signal is poor; ambient noise obscures words) Uh, well, you\u2019re right in all (unintelligible) that last part, but the first part (unintelligible) a lot of things you say were good things (unintelligible) for you. (unintelligible) I\u2013 I really would have to expect somehow from you.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) (struggles with words) Answer me\u2013 You can\u2013 Why\u2013 Answer me one question. Why would I have any reason to lie about? I\u2019ll<\/em> take a lie detector test on it. He\u2013 he should be asked if he would do the same<\/em>. Over.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>I absolutely agree with you. What I (unintelligible) that\u2019s what I want to know.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(not transmitting, becoming exasperated) What\u2019s she say? (Pause) (26:00)<\/span> I didn\u2019t hear what she said\u2013 (transmitting) I\u2019m not sure what you said. (not transmitting) What\u2019d she say?<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris:<\/strong> I don\u2019t see why you have to say anything like that. You\u2019d never talk to (unintelligible name) or say anything like that to her. (unintelligible words, radio connection is poor) never (unintelligible) this time.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria:<\/strong> (transmitting) Mom, why do you think I went through so many therapists? And I couldn\u2019t even tell them<\/em>, because it had me so messed up. It wasn\u2019t until I came to this group that I think you saw an adjustment. And I\u2013 you know, I started feeling better. (flips off transmitter, speaking quietly to someone)<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>(speaking, but voice very faint and obscured by radio transmission) \u2013details and then maybe I\u2019ll begin (voice obscured by transmission again)<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(not transmitting) Like, if you have something to say, you have to say it loud and get the points.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Female Voice: <\/strong>(in room with Maria, speaking quickly) She said I want you to sit down with this in writing and then maybe I\u2019ll believe you.<\/p>\n

Second Female Voice<\/strong>: Okay, mama.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) What\u2013 I\u2019ll put it in writing, Mom. But I\u2013 I know that you\u2019ve asked me several times over the\u2013 you know, not several times, but you did mention that you wanted me to write you a letter about it, and I just didn\u2019t want to write<\/em> about it. Over.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>Well, I\u2019m (27:00)<\/span> afraid that if you want me to accept what you\u2019re saying, you\u2019re gonna have to write me some details.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) I\u2019m not sure what you said, Mom, but I can tell you how deeply hurt I am that you don\u2019t believe me. Over.<\/p>\n

Female Voice: <\/strong>(short laugh, speaking quietly) I was\u2013<\/p>\n

Maria:<\/strong> (not transmitting) Yeah, exactly what\u2013<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>(speaking insistently, but transmission quality obscures words) \u2013you can\u2019t say it to me in this particular set of circumstances (unintelligible) the situation. I just find it difficult to accept.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) Okay. He know\u2013 he knows this. Ask him, you\u2013 When he was down here, we discussed this with the US Consulate and some other officials, and he knows that I\u2019ll\u2013 I would say it to his face. But I can\u2019t tell you how hurt I am that you don\u2019t believe it, (28:00)<\/span> and it just goes to show why I didn\u2019t tell you all these years. I never expected you to believe it. But I\u2019m hurt now. Over.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>Sorry (unintelligible words, transmission quality poor) you call from thousands of miles away for something that you have never told me. (unintelligible) have loved you (unintelligible)\u2013<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(not transmitting) What is she saying? Shhh\/Shit<\/em>.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>(still speaking, but transmission quality obscures words) an opportunity to bring something up.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) I\u2019m sorry, I can\u2019t hear you. Stand by a second and\u2013 Can you relay for me, Rex?<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>(voice obscured by poor transmission quality) \u2013but this right now. You have to understand we\u2019re not solving anything (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) Okay. I cannot\u2013 You\u2019re talk\u2013 Talk shorter and louder. If you\u2019ll hold on just a second, I\u2019d like to ask (29:00)<\/span> Rex to relay for me what you said. Over.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Okay, she said that she is not willing to share\u2013 (voice obscured by transmission)<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(not transmitting) What?<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>(relaying message in parts, from Ann Katsaris<\/strong>) It is very difficult for her to accept this out of the clear blue, that we never had any indication of anything like this in all these years. Talking over a medium like this is extremely difficult for her. She\u2019s not\u2013 She\u2019s not even sure that who she is talking to. Okay, she\u2019s always felt like that every time she\u2019s talked in this medium. Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(speaking very clearly) (transmitting) This is me. And I can tell you anything you want to prove that it is me. Or, well\u2013 what would you like me to say, over, that will prove it\u2019s me? But I\u2019ll tell you one thing. (30:00)<\/span> This\u2013 and this is why I\u2019ve never said anything. Just this exact reason. Over.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>I really don\u2019t think that we should handle anything like this over this distance. Why (unintelligible) like this is crazy, so uh, I think this is something that we need to discuss (continues speaking, voice obscured by transmission and recording)<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(not transmitting) I\u2019m gonna tell her that I have to use this frequency, this medium because it keeps it out of all the newspapers and (voice grows unintelligible \u2013 too quiet, and radio too loud)<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Okay, she asked if you wanted to, uh, ask any personal questions and\u2013<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>I\u2013 I don\u2019t because I\u2019m still not sure\u2013 (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Rex<\/strong>: Let\u2013 let them (unintelligible) she wanted to know if you wanted to ask her anything that would indicate proof to you that you were talking to the right person.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>Mmm, I just, you know, I (transmission quality obscures words) talk about it.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Okay, uh, do you copy? Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(speaking loudly and clearly) Roger. I copy. It\u2019s\u2013 (31:00)<\/span> I can tell her something from my childhood if she\u2019d like. She\u2013 If she can remember when we lived in Salt Lake City and I went to\u2013 you went to grade school and I used to have a bedroom downstairs. Does that help her to know that this is me?<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>Okay, I don\u2019t even want to discuss it on this medium, tell her.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>She doesn\u2019t even want to discuss it on this medium. Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>I understand that, and believe me, this is not my choice. I don\u2019t want to discuss it over this medium either, but I really have no choice. I di\u2013 I would never have brought it up in the first place, Mom, and it\u2013 I was\u2013 I kept it to myself all these years and I could\u2019ve continued to\u2019ve done so. But with all the lies and things he\u2019s doing, he\u2019s forced me to do it, and unfortunately this is the only means of communication available. Do you copy?<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>Yes, I\u2013 I understand what you\u2019re saying. It\u2019s a gesture\u2013 you should never have kept it to yourself. And it\u2013 maybe you should have (unintelligible word, \u201cconsulted\u201d?) and straighten things out with me.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over. (32:00)<\/span><\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>Okay. I understand that. But\u2013 another reason I didn\u2019t\u2013 I\u2013 I didn\u2019t wanna tell you is because I didn\u2019t wanna cause you embarrassment or any pain. Do you copy?<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>As I say, I think that we should have a face-to-face confrontation in order to settle this.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(not transmitting) (sighs) (transmitting; speaking with some exasperation) I did with\u2013 with my dad when he was here. You can ask him. Over.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>Uh, I\u2013 I\u2019m not interested in what you did with your dad\u2013<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(not transmitting, speaking over mother) I\u2019m gonna tell her that (unintelligible words under mother) I\u2019m gonna tell her she didn\u2019t call before either\u2013<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>(still transmitting) I\u2019m just saying you and me, okay? I\u2019m not trying to (voice obscured by Maria and transmission quality) anything about him, I\u2019m interested in me and you. I\u2019m posting your tickets and I (voice obscured by Maria speaking to others)<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(not transmitting) That\u2019s what I\u2019m saying. (transmitting) Okay. I understand that. If you want, though, if you can call the US Consulate here in the capital and\u2013 and check things out with him. Over.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>If you are sincere in what you\u2019re saying, I feel that if you are (33:00)<\/span> free<\/em> to come and go, I see no reason why you can\u2019t (unintelligible word, could be \u201ccome home\u201d) for two or three days, so that we can iron out some things.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Female Voice: <\/strong>She cannot be serious\u2013<\/p>\n

Maria<\/strong>: (transmitting) I\u2019m very happy here, and this is my home now. I do not have any plans right now to come back there, but a two or three day visit is not as simple as\u2013 it\u2019s a long\u2013 it\u2019s quite a long trip. Over.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>I understand that. But then why call me and tell me over this medium that you\u2019re calling me and make me all upset. It is extremely unfair. Now I\u2019d be glad to pay for your way to come for as long as you feel you want to stay. You want to stay one day? You want to stay one week? That\u2019s fine. A month, a year, whatever you want to do. But it\u2019s not something you can discuss over this medium.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) I understand. And believe me, this is the last way I wanna discuss it either. But I had no choice because you\u2013 you\u2019re going to be hearing about it anyway, (note of exasperation) and this is the quickest way I could talk to you. Over.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>I think you oughta come back. (unintelligible) discuss it with me in person.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) Mom, I wanted to tell you now, (34:00)<\/span> I wanted to relieve your mind, because you will<\/em> be hearing about it, if you hadn\u2019t already heard about it. I knew you would be worried and concerned. Over.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>(Pauses) I\u2013 I really don\u2019t know what more to say. I could not believe that you are free to come and go as you please, if you tell me you cannot come. Because I have from the past and always said that you not are free to come and go, (unintelligible) but I can believe it now.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(stumbles over words, transmitting) I understand. I\u2013 I just finished explain\u2013 explaining this to you. I am<\/em> free to come and go. I think<\/em> if you don\u2019t believe that, that you should<\/em> call the US Consulate here in the capital and check several things. One, this story that I am telling you about my dad is the truth, and that I discussed it with my dad and with him and some other officials. The other thing you can check is that I am<\/em> free to come and (35:00)<\/span> go as I please and that I have talked to him at the embassy, on several occasions, by myself, on business and have even travelled with him alone on business. And I could have said to him anything I wanted at any time. Over.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>You get the name of this person if she wants me to talk to him I will talk to him. However, uh, I want to say that I really not\u2013 I do not\u2013 I will talk to this person, but I\u2019m sorry, I cannot believe that you are free to come and go as you please, if you cannot come home and see me about something that is so traumatic as this.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(not transmitting) I\u2019m gonna tell her\u2013 I\u2019m gonna ask if she\u2019s been talking to my dad because she sounds just like him (voice obscured; other voices respond quietly) (36:00)<\/span> No, no.<\/p>\n

Rex:<\/strong> Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(not transmitting) No, no, that\u2019s how we blew it with my dad. (transmitting, resigned voice) Okay, Mom. Well, I don\u2019t know what else I can say. I love you very much, and I\u2019m very hurt that you don\u2019t believe me. I\u2019m very happy here. I want you to know that I\u2019m healthy, I\u2019m involved in a very rewarding kind of work, and I don\u2019t know what else to say. I\u2019m very hurt. I love you very much, and I only did this to help relieve your mind. Over.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>Uh, you didn\u2019t<\/em> relieve my mind. You raised a lot of questions. This has been extremely\u2013<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(not transmitting; exasperated voice initially too quiet to make out) Like we care. Talk to your therapist about it\u2013<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>(still transmitting) \u2013upsetting to me. The whole past five years has been extremely traumatic for me because of this, and now you open up a whole new area<\/em>, and you\u2019re not willing to discuss<\/em> it with me.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) I am very<\/em> willing to discuss it with you. Over. But I\u2013 I\u2019m not going to pop off for two or three days. It\u2019s a very long trip. Over.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>(begins mid-sentence, transmission quality obscures words) \u2013<\/strong>or three weeks\u2013<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) (37:00)<\/span> This is my home now, and I have other responsibilities.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>This\u2013 I\u2019m not asking you to leave your home. I\u2019m asking you to visit your mother.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) Roger. But you know I am engaged now, and my fianc\u00e9\u2019s work is here, and it is not that easy for him. He\u2019s very busy, it is not easy for him to get away. Over.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>I see you\u2019re telling me that (Various voices at Maria\u2019s end obscure mother\u2019s words) but this is the first I\u2019ve ever (unintelligible) not only (unintelligible) the first inkling I have ever had, and you expect me to believe it over this long distance connection and just accept that, okay, everything\u2019s fine, honey. That\u2019s really a bit much to expect.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting, slightly exasperated tone) Okay, well, I can write you about it, if that will help. But I\u2019m happy here, and this is my home. Do you copy?<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>I hear you. I\u2013 Nobody\u2019s asking you to leave your home. I\u2019m only asking that you come so we can settle some things between the two of us.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>(38:00)<\/span> Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) Well, I love you very much, and I don\u2019t what there is to settle. We don\u2019t have any conflicts or differences between us. I just wish that\u2013 that you would believe me on this. Over.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>Well, when my name is about to be dragged through newspapers and TV, yes, you owe me some explanation.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>I\u2013 Okay, Mom, I\u2019m not going to keep you on very much longer. But your name is not going to be dragged through anything if I can help it. But unfortunately, my father has already dragged my name through the papers and through the TV. Do you copy?<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>Well, I\u2013 I think that you should just sit down and write me a l\u2013 letter with the details.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(not transmitting) She wants me to write details. (transmitting) I will. It\u2019s very painful for me. I don\u2019t want to go into it. But if you obviously don\u2019t believe me. Over.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>I\u2019m just going through a lot of pain since the first time that you went to that place. (39:00)<\/span> And I don\u2019t mean down there, I mean in the States. I\u2019ve been going through an extreme<\/em> amount of pain the first time that you left home. So don\u2019t<\/em> talk to me about pain (unintelligible word)<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) Well, I\u2019m twenty-four years old. I have my own life now, and I went through many, many, many years of a lot of pain that I kept to myself. Do you copy?<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>(speaking slowly) I hear what you\u2019re saying. I don\u2019t know\u2013 I really don\u2019t know the purpose of this call. In order for me to accept what you\u2019re saying, we\u2019re going to have to discuss this in person now.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(not transmitting) I\u2019m not going to chop it off like I\u2013 her\u2013 \u2018cause that\u2019s when my dad started. (transmitting) Okay, well, I\u2019m going to go now. I don\u2019t want to keep you any longer. But the purpose of this call was to tell you I love you and I care about you a lot and I wanted you not to worry, (40:00)<\/span> because I thought you had probably heard a lot of things, or just turned on your TV and happened to hear this story. Over.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>Yeah. Okay. I\u2019ll see you.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>Okay, I\u2019ll see you. I love you very much. Give my love to Elaine and Anthony and Jack.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>Thank you.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) And I hope to be hearing from you. Write me. I love you.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>I love you. Maria, I\u2019m extremely upset.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>I\u2019m sorry you\u2019re upset, Mom. I know it\u2019s\u2013 it\u2019s very\u2013 it\u2019s\u2013 it\u2019s very shocking and upsetting, but please don\u2019t worry about it. It\u2019s all in the past. Over.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>I (unintelligible words; very emotional) my dear.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) Don\u2019t worry, your name is not going to be involved in this. Don\u2019t worry about that. Over.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>(still emotional) It\u2019s not just my name.<\/p>\n

Female Voice: <\/strong>It\u2019s your reputation.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting, growing exasperated) Well, there\u2019s nothing to worry about at this point. He\u2019s obviously not doing it anymore. Over.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>Fine. (41:00)<\/span> There\u2019s really, you know\u2013 there\u2019s really not much more to say.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) Okay. I hope I\u2019ll be hearing from you soon, okay?<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>If I write to you, you write too?<\/p>\n

Maria:<\/strong> (not transmitting, mimicking sad tone) I will. (transmitting) Okay, Mom, bye-bye. I love you.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Fortson: <\/strong>Probably get some of his members together, and go down to the board of education, \u2018cause there was an issue with the\u2013<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) I just wanted to call you back. I want to you know that you\u2019re welcome to come here any time, and I would be very happy for you to come here. Do you copy?<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>I understand. Uh\u2013 How would I get to see you?<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>Very easy. Just tell me any time you want to come. Over.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>(Emphatic and angry throughout) I\u2019m sorry, but I would have to meet you on neutral ground. I would not consider coming down there in that environment to see you. I will see you somewhere else, in another country. But not there.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(not transmitting) Wait wait wait wait. Wait. I better\u2013 (transmitting) Negative copy. (not transmitting) Wait a minute. He told me not to (stumbles over words) bring her down here<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>(42:00)<\/span> Say it again. Yeah, she didn\u2019t hear you.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>Oh. I will not come down to see you there. I will see you in another place, another area. Not there. When you were here, you would not discuss this with me. I\u2013 You would not even ever come home and stay overnight. I just cannot feel that you are free to come and go. As long as you are in that country, I cannot talk to you there. I can talk to you in this country, not down there, because I still do not feel that you are free.<\/p>\n

Maria <\/strong>and Female Voices<\/strong> (discussing things, words obscured in recording) Listen! Listen!<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Female Voice<\/strong>: Sorry, you\u2013<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) I\u2019m sorry you feel like that. Over.<\/p>\n

Female Voice: <\/strong>I don\u2019t consider it\u2019s\u2013<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>I\u2013 I want to refer to something that you said before about your father. If that was true, why in the hell did you ever opt to live with him?<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(43:00)<\/span> Repeat.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>I said, if what you told me was true, why in the hell did you ever go up to live with him?<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Female Voices<\/strong>: (discussing response with Maria) I was a minor\u2013<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) I was a minor, and I did not have any choice.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>Excuse me, but bullshit.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>Untrue.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) Uh, Mom, I\u2019m very sorry that you feel like this. I\u2019m very hurt that this is your reaction.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>You bet. That was your choice. I did not push you to leave at that time. I never (unintelligible word). Mostly I needed your support, and you left me at a time when I needed you, so don\u2019t tell me you were a minor and you had no choice, because that is not true, my dear. You chose to go. Now if this was a person that had done the things that you allege that he did, why would you ever want to go?<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) I am very\u2013 I am very surprised at the tone of your voice, and I\u2013 I\u2019m (44:00)<\/span> very hurt by it. I understand you might\u2019ve needed emotional support, but at that time I was in no condition to give it to anyone, it\u2019s the mess I was in. Over.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>Well, it\u2019s definitely true, you were in no condition to give it, but you were also \u2013 if what you say is true \u2013 you were in no condition to go up there.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) I did not go up there to live with him. I was just trying to go\u2013 I was\u2013 just a different place to live, a place to escape for a while. And that was just some place I went to sleep. Over.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>Uh, that really is not quite true. You could have gone away to school\u2013<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(not transmitting) I did go away to school\u2013<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>(still transmitting) because you know, we\u2019re really not solving anything talking like this. That\u2019s why, you know, if we\u2019re going to uh, come to an agreement, we really ought to talk in, uh, on a person-to-person basis. You can\u2019t solve problems when you can hear (unintelligible word) on the telephone.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(not transmitting) Did you guys understand? (transmitting) I didn\u2019t hear what you said about the telephone. (45:00)<\/span><\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>It\u2019s very convenient that there are (unintelligible word) that you don\u2019t hear.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) I\u2019m sorry you feel like that, that you\u2019re calling me a liar. I heard everything that you said up until you said \u2018telephone.\u2019 (not transmitting) You bitch.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>Every\u2013 everything I said?<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Up to the point where you talked about telephone. Re\u2013 repeat that part about telephone.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>(quietly) Well, I said that you can\u2019t (transmission quality obscures words) discuss this person to person\u2013<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Yes.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris:<\/strong> (speaking slowly and clearly) I, uh\u2013 I find it extremely difficult to solve these problems over the telephone. I mean, it\u2019s just\u2013 you know, it\u2019s practically impossible \u2013 (unintelligible) we might not even (unintelligible words) telephone connection. It\u2019s just kind of an unreal situation. (voice grows insistent) That\u2019s why I\u2019m begging you to please come! Come for a day, come for two days. I\u2019ll buy you a round-trip ticket. I mean, you know, I want to work it out with you.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) Well, Mom, I want to talk to you too, and work it out with you. That\u2019s why the invitation is open, and I would be glad to see you here. Over.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>Okay, you meant\/know<\/em> the stipulation that\u2019s there. Maria, I cannot come there because I would not feel that you were (46:00)<\/span> a free agent, because you would still (unintelligible word)\u2013<\/p>\n

Maria <\/strong>and Female Voices: <\/strong>(discussion, too many voices to make out)<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>(still speaking) If you\u2019re free and willing to go anywhere, I\u2019ll meet you in southern California. I\u2019ll meet you (transmission quality and voices in Jonestown obscure words) anywhere. But I won\u2019t be in that country.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) Mom, we would be free to go anywhere<\/em>. Obviously. Of course. I\u2019d go anywhere with you that you want. It sounds\u2013 This sounds like the same stuff Pop was saying. Have you talked to him? Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>I told you, I have not talked to him in three or four months. I have no intention of talking to him.<\/p>\n

HAM Radio User: <\/strong>Uh, check your frequency, I think that you\u2019re out of the band.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) Okay, thanks, we will, as soon as we terminate phone-patch.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>(still speaks as Maria talks to people in Jonestown about selecting a meeting point throughout) \u2013it was up to him. I\u2013 I don\u2019t even want to talk to the man. And if I had words for him, it would be because of you and (unintelligible) for you. Now\u2013 But if you want me to react (47:00)<\/span> in a positive fashion to you, I\u2019m gonna have to see you on a face-to-face basis, you\u2019re gonna have to say to me \u201c(unintelligible word), this is what I really want.\u201d Then I\u2013 you know, then it\u2019s much easier for me to accept.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Female Voice<\/strong>: (not transmitting) It appears we\u2019re over the band, so maybe I\u2019ll cut it off eventually\u2013<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) Okay, it seems like we\u2019re outside the band on this radio frequency, Mom. But this\u2013 the invitation always stands, and I\u2019d like to see you, and you\u2019d be welcome here. We have people coming all the time. There\u2019s a net\u2013 one of my girlfriends\u2019 parents are coming just tomorrow, and uh, some other people are coming next week. And you would always be free to come. Over.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>That\u2019s a convenient way of putting it, you know. That I should feel (unintelligible words; transmission quality obscures words)<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(not transmitting) I know, I know, I know, I know\u2013<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>(still transmitting) If you\u2019ll concur, then I\u2013 I can\u2019t imagine that it\u2019s impossible to make arrangements to be gone for one or two days, if you\u2019re that indispensable.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting; with some exasperation) Okay, I never said anything about being indispensable or that I could not get away. (48:00)<\/span> But, I\u2019m not\u2013 You know, if that\u2013 if those are your conditions, I am just saying to you that I\u2019d be happy to see you and you are welcome to come here, and I love you very much.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>(with Maria speaking to others in Jonestown throughout; transmission quality and others speaking obscures words) You\u2019re really telling me \u201cIt\u2019s not (unintelligible word). I won\u2019t come there to see you. I\u2019m\u2013 I\u2019m here, and you\u2019re going to have to come here\u201d\u2013 You\u2019re not saying this, but it\u2019s the (unintelligible) You know, that\u2019s as plain as it is. Because you\u2013 you couldn\u2019t leave from up here in the city, because (unintelligible word). It was my (unintelligible word) to get you to come down for two or three hours. I got married, and we almost had a fight because you weren\u2019t gonna come. So, you know, now you\u2019re telling me I\u2019ll come down there and meet you. I\u2019m telling you, if I come down there and meet you, it\u2019s not going to be the same as if you come up here.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) I don\u2019t understand. I heard you, but I don\u2019t understand.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>Maybe (unintelligible word) understand. (49:00)<\/span> You\u2019re all full of pride and (unintelligible word) from my point of view. And all of these years I\u2019ve been patient. \u201cMaria, come see me.\u201d \u201cMaria, come for overnight.\u201d \u201cMaria, Dad\u2019s in the hospital.\u201d You\u2013 you did<\/em> say you wanted to come and stay with me that day, but you would not have even stayed with me overnight. Times when I\u2019ve really<\/em> been going through a traumatic time, and you won\u2019t even come and stay overnight with me.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(not transmitting; muttering) Child, huh. Fucking retard bitch.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>(still transmitting) I find it hard to accept that you (unintelligible word) if that was of your own free volition.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Female Voices: <\/strong>(advising Maria) \u2013We\u2019re over the band. I\u2019m sorry\u2013<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(not transmitting) Okay. (transmitting) Okay, well, I\u2019m sorry I\u2019ve been a disappointment to you. That\u2019s the last thing that I ever wanted to do. And I just want you to know I love you and I hope to be hearing from you again. Over.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>The disappointment, Maria, is not you. It\u2019s in the\u2013 it\u2019s your refusal for you to come see me on a face-to-face basis, and let\u2019s discuss it.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(not transmitting) What\u2019d she say? What\u2019d she say?<\/p>\n

Female Voice: <\/strong>You\u2019d better ask her to repeat it.<\/p>\n

Maria:<\/strong> (transmitting) Repeat.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>The disappointment is in the fact, not in you. It\u2019s in the fact that some of your behavior, that you will refuse to come and see me (50:00)<\/span> on an individual basis. You can\u2019t. Not there. It\u2019s uh, uh, you know, everything that you<\/em>want to do, and not me. It has to be by your<\/em> rules, not mine. You know, and I think it\u2019s time that maybe I had\u2013 I had a little command myself.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) I\u2019m sorry you feel that way. And it seems like it\u2019s\u2013 it\u2019s too, you know, you\u2019re refusing to come here too. That uh, you know, if you don\u2019t want to talk any longer, just know that I\u2019d be happy to talk to you and straighten things out and I\u2019ll be writing to you and hope you write to me. But if, you know, that\u2019s just the way it stands. Over. So, I\u2019ll be\u2013 I can be saying goodbye.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>(transmitting, begins mid-sentence) \u2013down there would be absolutely useless. It would be the same as me going up to your living quarters when you were up here in the city, and talk to you there. It is absolutely useless. Like, you were\u2013 if you came home and we saw each other here, (51:00)<\/span> it\u2019d be different. Then I could accept it differently. But for me to come down there then I would not feel that you would be (unintelligible word) of your own free will.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) Okay, well, I\u2013 I\u2019m don\u2019t wanna keep this going on forever. I already told you who you could call at the US Embassy, and check for yourself. And I\u2019ve already told you that you could come here, we could go anywhere that you wanted to. And I\u2019m\u2013 I\u2019m gonna hang up, I\u2019m gonna say goodbye. Because it doesn\u2019t look like we\u2019re getting anyplace.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris:<\/strong> Right, we\u2019re at an impasse. So write me and I\u2019ll write to you, and I feel strongly in what I said to you\u2013<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(not transmitting) She feels what?<\/p>\n

Female Voice: <\/strong>Strongly about something\u2013<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) You feel strongly about something. That\u2019s all I copy. Okay, well, I love you and I\u2019ll be saying goodbye.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>What did she say?<\/p>\n

Rex<\/strong>: She didn\u2019t copy, she didn\u2019t copy what you said before\u2013 before you come.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>I feel strongly\u2013 Am I still on the air?<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Go ahead, yeah\u2013 (unintelligible words)<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>I feel strongly about the fact that I want<\/em> to see you in uh\u2013 In my letters (52:00)<\/span> I haven\u2019t even said \u201cMaria, when are you coming home? I want to see you\u201d, because I didn\u2019t want you to feel I was putting any pressure. I wanted to maintain a relationship so that in the future if I said it, you would be open to the suggestion.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) As far as I\u2019m concerned, Mom, our relationship is still open, and I love you very much. (not transmitting) I didn\u2019t get to say (unintelligible under mother transmitting)<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>I love you, but it\u2019s still open. I will hope that someday soon you will consider coming home for a visit. I don\u2019t care how short or long, even if it\u2019s for a couple of hours, to discuss it, but then you have to feel free to discuss things, Maria. Unless I see you in the home base to iron some of these things out, I\u2013 I can\u2019t accept them.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) Okay, fine. Well, this is my home now. And you\u2019re welcome to come here any time. It\u2019s good talking to you. I want you to know that, and I love you, and I\u2019ll be saying goodbye. Hope to be hearing from you.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>Uh, in closing, I just want to say that a lot of this talk is (unintelligible word) as far as I\u2019m concerned\u2013<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(not transmitting) Huh?<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>(still transmitting) \u2013and I will look forward to your letter. If you can come up with something (53:00)<\/span> more concrete, I would like to hear it.<\/p>\n

Rex: <\/strong>Over.<\/p>\n

Maria: <\/strong>(transmitting) Okay, I\u2019ll be looking forward to hearing from you. And I\u2019ll write too. Bye-bye.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>Bye-bye.<\/p>\n

Rex<\/strong> and Ann Katsaris: <\/strong>(talking over one another, words jumbled)<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

<\/a>Part III \u2013 Audio letter from Hue Fortson (conclusion)<\/strong><\/p>\n

Hue Fortson: <\/strong>(begins mid-sentence; speaking slowly with pauses and some ambient noise) I wonder whether they\u2019re coming or going, or, or, right or wrong, or what. Then a lot of times I don\u2019t like to\u2013 Don\u2019t know what to talk to, talk to, I will talk to folks \u2013 when they\u2019s takin\u2019 care of business. But folks sittin\u2019 down, just talkin\u2019 and talkin\u2019 and talkin\u2019. As far as I know, there\u2019s nobody here that really has time. But I admit, I admit, uh, to myself. And for one thing I must be a pretty selfish person to always want to take up your time. (54:00)<\/span> Letters and talkin\u2019 over the radio and whatever. But, uh, for instance the only one I really could<\/em> talk to, uh, (unintelligible words) maybe Leona [Collier] or Mac [Jim McElvane], but Leona is, my gracious, she\u2019s just so busy with phonin\u2019. One time when I was buzzed through to pick her up or pick something up, the phone was just busy, busy, busy with her, when people can\u2019t get any satisfaction at the church, they\u2019d call Leona. (unintelligible) She\u2019s, uh, quite a hard worker, she\u2019s got on my butt a lot, straightened me out where I was wrong, but you know, she\u2019s got a lot of physical conditions (55:00)<\/span> that she should never been walkin\u2019 up and down stairs \u2018cause of the hernia that she has just below her diaphragm, I think it is.<\/p>\n

And her paralysis and uh, (unintelligible word), pressure, pressure\u2019s normal, I think, but she\u2019s just got so much on her. Then usually, what happens when folks can\u2019t resolve their own shit, they\u2019ll bring it to her. They drop it in her lap. So\u2013 \u2018Cause when it comes to getting\u2019 things done, people\u2019ll carry it to Leona. And I don\u2019t know. I don\u2019t believe in that (unintelligible word). A lot of times when I think about (laughs shortly) some of the things that\u2019re on my mind, I think I\u2019m pretty weird myself. So I\u2019m sure if I think I\u2019m pretty weird (56:00)<\/span> then it\u2019s probably a trip for her and I don\u2019t wanna lay it on her, and\u2013<\/p>\n

Mac is\u2013 I talk to Mac once in a while, but never really dig down deep, deep, deep, deep, deep, deep, deep. I don\u2019t know. I think there\u2019s a\u2013 it\u2019s a feeling, you know. There\u2019s a feeling that I guess you could say camaraderie, com\u2013 camaraderie there, or\u2013 or we work together, and sometimes we argue together. I don\u2019t know. Just never felt free to really talk, (unintelligible word) wrong about (unintelligible word). Once in a while really don\u2019t think (unintelligible) on my mind. Once in a while we did, or we do run into each other. We pass, you know, whatever, but other folks is I really don\u2019t feel comfortable talkin\u2019 to. Lotta times that I\u2019d rather (57:00)<\/span> keep \u2018em to myself, that I found lately and keepin\u2019 things to myself like I had been doing, it comes out of me in other ways. I\u2019ve\u2013 like I said, recently it\u2019s started coming out of, uh, tears. (unintelligible) Sunday evening service, that I was talkin\u2019 to the people about what you told me about, about Joe Beam being a new man. I just felt\u2013 felt all of this comin\u2019 on and comin\u2019 on and just didn\u2019t have a (unintelligible) to wipe my eyes, just stop and cry and (unintelligible) just, uh, finally turn it off.<\/p>\n

(End of side 2)<\/strong><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you. To return to the Tape Index, click here. To read the Tape Summary, click here. Listen to MP3. (Editor\u2019s notes: This tape was transcribed by both Seriina Covarrubias and Kristian Klippenstein, and we are grateful to both for persevering on such a difficult […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":8,"featured_media":0,"parent":27291,"menu_order":530,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-108358","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/108358","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/8"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=108358"}],"version-history":[{"count":10,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/108358\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":110616,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/108358\/revisions\/110616"}],"up":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27291"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=108358"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}