This interview took place on\u00a0May 17, 2021 at 11:10 am PST.<\/p>\n
Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: And I hope you are recording, it says it\u2019s recording\u2026Yes! So, for verification purposes, my name is Katherine Klapperich and I am a student at the Graduate Theological Union. I am working towards my Masters degree with the Swedenborgian Institute and my Masters is New Religious Movements, and I am speaking to Mr. Michael Touchette<\/strong>, correct?<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Yes, ma\u2019am<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: And we gone over the Consent Form and the Contractual Agreement that I have sent to you and we are\u2026we have come to an understanding and this interview is both sanctioned by you and me and Graduate Theological Union.<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: Alright, sir. So I\u2019m going to start with the basic questions which I have supplied to you before hand and we\u2019ll just\u2026<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Okay<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: \u2026we\u2019ll go from there, sir. Because I really do want this to be a conversation more than anything.<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Okay<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: And\u2026<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Do me a favor?<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: Sure.<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: My name\u2019s \u201cMike\u201d, not \u201cSir\u201d.<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: Al\u2026alright, Mike.<\/p>\n (Both laugh<\/em>)<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: Old habits die hard\u2026<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Oh, me too\u2026me, too. I understand.<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: Alright, so Mike\u2026uh\u2026let\u2019s start with where were you on November 18th,<\/sup> 1978?<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Georgetown, Guyana.<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: And why\u2026why were you in Georgetown?<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Uh\u2026we had a basketball team and the Guyanese government wanted us to uh come in to Georgetown to play their national team which was preparing for, I believe it was the PanAm Games, I really don\u2019t remember, but I think it was for the PanAm Games, so we went in\u2026uh\u2026to play basketball to give them practice to\u2026um\u2026just to give \u2018em practice.<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: Okay. So\u2026when did, when did your family\u2026it\u2019s my understanding when doing some readings that your family was actually a part of what they called the\u2026uh Coordination Committee? Is that correct?<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Don\u2019t know anything about that.<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: Interesting. Okay.<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: (slight cough<\/em>) My family\u2026I went over\u2026I was in the first group of six that went to Guyana, and I don\u2019t have my notes, they\u2019re packed away, but I had a time, y\u2019know I looked through all my passports and I wrote down my..my..uh\u2026y\u2019know different dates and I can tell \u2018ya that I went over in March of 1974 and with a group of six. There was three people already in Guyana. Uh\u2026Paula Adams, Gene Chaikin, and Archie Ijames (pronounced Imes<\/em>). And we were to prepare and get everything ready to start building Jonestown. Uh\u2026sometime, I believe it was in May or June, myself and my uncle, Tim Swinney, we took a boat back to Miami (Mr. Touchette begins heavy coughing<\/em>)<\/p>\n Call lost at 11:13:33 am PST<\/p>\n Call resumed at 11:14 am PST<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: Alright so, (sniffs) we\u2019ll resume that\u2026<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: You ready?<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: I am ready, thank you.<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Okay\u2026uh\u2026we took a boat back to Miami to pick up supplies and people. We picked up umm approximately twenty-five people. And we loaded the boat with supplies and we went back to Guyana. On the boat, the people that we picked up was my mother, my brother, my sister, my dad, and about twenty other people. When we got to Guyana, my dad and my mom were in charge of the project in Guyana. And when we started\u2026uh actually working and building Jonestown, we did it as\u2026I\u2019m not gonna call it a \u201ccommittee\u201d, I\u2019m callin\u2019 it \u201cthe group\u201d. Ya know? Everybody that was there all had a voice in what we were doin\u2019.<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: Alright.<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Th..that my mom and dad were in charge of it. They were in charge of ..uh..buyin\u2019 material, food so on and so forth. Hope that answers your question.<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: It does. Thank you very much. It does. And\u2026going forward what was your impression\u2026How old were you? I don\u2019t believe I\u2019ve asked that.<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Uhhh\u2026when I went over? I was twenty-one.<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: Okay. And, were you married?<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Uh, yes.<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: Mmm..hmm.<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Myself and Debbie uh\u2026we got married in 1971.<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: Alright. Now was she\u2026were you a part of the Temple when you got married?<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Oh! E..e..uhh, yes. And she was part of the group we picked up in Miami.<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: Okay.<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: And to answer your question, was she a part of the Temple? She grew up in the Temple.<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: Oh. Alright.<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: From the time she was like maybe I wanna say five or six years old.<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: Alright. Is\u2026is Debbie still with us?<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Yeah. She was, when umm\u2026when we got to Guyana, they..the Temple always did from what I know everything was done integrated. There was always a white person and there was always a black person. \u00a0And in Guyana, Debbie was\u2026uhh the black liaison, if you wanna call her that. From the Temple. Her and this woman named Paula Adams they did ya know the contact with the government. Made sure with the visas and customs and they would start uhh\u2026 buyin\u2019 supplies or whatever. And so Debbie\u2019s main function was in Georgetown.<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: Okay. And\u2026and building upon\u2026building upon the integration what was your role(?) impression of Peoples Temple\u2019s philosophy?<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Well\u2026that goes back the way that I was raised. My mother raised us where there was no color. And she made a point to ta raise\u2026there was four of us, four kids, and she made a point to uhh\u2026to raise us that way. And there was certain times during\u2026uh\u2026my growin\u2019 up where she told people, basically, you can get outta my house if you wanna talk that way, ya know, racially? And my father was one of \u2018em. So when I got, went to the Temp, when I started going to the Temple..uh\u2026the very first time was in Indianapolis, this was before they moved to California and I was a-mazed <\/em>about th..how black and white people were together. Because it..my life was, basically, segregated. The high school I went to had one or two black kids in it\u2026um\u2026ya\u2019 know and I was just a-mazed<\/em>. And then, when I got involved, several yer..several years later, uh\u2026I went to a Youth Night and I could not believe how people of color could be together. Because I wasn;t raised that way. I mean, \u2018ya know, watchin\u2019 the TV back in the sixties and\u2026and seein\u2019 all the\u2026the\u2026segregation. It just\u2026it blew me away. I\u2019ve never had a problem with it, I never will, and I believe in integration. I really do. Uh\u2026it\u2019s the only way we\u2019re gonna get tog\u2026get along. That\u2019s my opinion.<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: So did you understand this to be\u2026so, basically did you understand this to be a socialist or communist type community?<\/p>\n <\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: La\u2026later on . Not a…not in the beginning. But, later on. It, then I understood what\u2026what was goin\u2019 on and to this day, I believe in it.<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: So what, what did you think of it at the very beginning? I mean you later on understood. So, so what was the impression at the beginning?<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Uh\u2026it is was a good thing.<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: Okay.<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: They were against the war in Vietnam. They were against how people were\u2026uh\u2026economically treated. I guess you could say, how ya know we have such\u2026you got the rich and then you got the poor. And the poor\u2019s, basically ya know, real lower\u2026uh\u2026lower class white people and, basically, all of the black community Latin and Asian communities. And, I\u2026uh\u2026I believed it and I still do the way that they\u2026they, ya know, disagreed with the way our system is.<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: Okay. So, do you feel there\u2019s a lot of comparative about the movement back in 1960\u2019s and 70\u2019s that is reflective of what\u2019s going on today?<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Uh\u2026yeah\u2026somewhat…yeah, I do. Yuh I really do with\u2026with what\u2019s goin\u2019 on with specially what\u2019s in our country right now. Absolutely. And\u2026um\u2026I\u2026I even have have had talks with different people because, ya know, it\u2019s like all George Floyd or this that all hold up a minute, man, it\u2019s not just a matter\u2026a matter of this just happened. This was goin\u2019 on in the 50\u2019s before<\/em> the 50\u2019s. And the 60\u2019s. Where I remember watchin\u2019 on TV on the national news where in Alabama and Louisiana and all them where they would turn the dogs and firehoses onto black people. Ya know, this isn\u2019t nothin\u2019 new that\u2019s goin\u2019 on? It\u2019s just now, hopefully, people are so tired of it that it will change.<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: So, you\u2026you yourself\u2026were one of the first groups of six down there. And it was from your readings, it was basically a plot of land out in the middle of nowhere that you had to cut your way through to get to\u2026at that time. So, I would imagine everyone\u2019s participation was\u2026<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Is what? I didn\u2019t hear that\u2026<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: \u00a0I imagine everyone\u2019s participation? Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Mmm\u2026hmm..Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: was as valued and necessary as the next persons? (slight talking over<\/em>) So there wasn\u2019t a lot of wiggle room to be selective about who did what job?<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: The way\u2026the way we did it..it was\u2026we had\u2026now I don\u2019t know who selected the people to come down. I have no clue, okay. Uh\u2026I know that myself I was asked to go over in the first group because there was a group of eight\u2026I think it was eight people that left. One of those\u2026and I was very close to all of the people who left the group. Who left the Peoples Temple. One of them was my sister. And I lived with\u2026um\u2026a few of the people we were startin\u2019 a commune. And so when these\u2026this group left it scared Jim\u2026scared Jim Jones that they would try and contact me and other people to leave. So he asked if I, \u201d\u2026wanted to go to Guyana?\u201d Umm\u2026other than that\u2026when we first got down there, the first group of twenty-five people or so, we had one guy who was a farmer. We had another guy who was\u2026uh\u2026into agronomy. Uh\u2026another guy who was somewhat into construction. I mean we had a diverse group of people that somebody knew something. And that\u2019s how we built Jonestown.<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: Okay. Did you feel that everybody had equal opportunities within the organization? Within the group?<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: At th\u2026in the early days?<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: Yes.<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Yes. Absolutely.<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: And as\u2026as time progressed?<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Um\u2026for the first\u2026up until the mass of people came over. We\u2026they would send us down a couple people at a time. And, but when the mass group of people came down, that\u2019s when everything changed as far as building Jonestown. We had a good part of it already built, to a certain extent, and but when the grou\u2026when the mass group of people came down then it was like the ones of us had been down there who knew the problems because the problems down there aren\u2019t the same problems that you have here. I mean you can\u2019t run out in Guyana you have a machine breakdown, you can\u2019t run out to the hardware store. I mean we were however you wanna look at it, we were a day\u2026a day trip by boat to get to where we were. Or an airplane trip. But, if you needed a part that means somebody had to go into Georgetown, get a part, and which ya know you\u2019re talkin\u2019 worse than a third world coun\u2026country where they just didn\u2019t have everything. So, it was very hard to\u2026uh in the beginning to build Jonestown. \u00a0And when we had\u2026when we came up to a problem, it wasn\u2019t a thing where, like I said, where you could go to a store, there was no stores. We sit there and we try to figure out the problem by ourselves and we did the best we could. And when these people came down, when the mass of people started to come down, they didn\u2019t understand that. They thought, oh you can just go buy a part, well there\u2026you can\u2019t. So, we had\u2026we\u2026there was a lot of conflict after th\u2026the large group of people started comin\u2019 down.<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: Alright. Did that conflict also lead to\u2026uh\u2026lead to suspicion within the group? Do you think it was negative in the groups\u2019 perception overall of each other?<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: No. I don\u2026not a suspicion. It was just\u2026you know like, it..i..how we\u2026it was like, \u201cLook, you just got here. You don\u2019t understand how things work. \u201c\u2026And it was like, \u201cOh, well we\u2019re here to fix things.\u201d Well\u2026you can\u2019t do that. You know, you can\u2019t do it the way you want to. And it was just a\u2026it was a conflict between the new people and the ones of us that\u2019d been down there for a couple of years. But I don\u2019t\u2026suspicion I don\u2019t\u2026I don\u2019t go with suspicion.<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: Alright. So, jumping forward a little bit\u2026because I would like to get into the intricacies of how Jonestown was built, Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Sure. (slightly talking over<\/em>) Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>\u2026as far as\u2026as a person I\u2026I\u2019d be very interested in how did you get the wood in there to build the buildings? How did\u2026how did you consider sceptic and water, and actually develop that in the middle of a jungle?<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: (laughter and what sounds like rubbing hands together<\/em>) It was a lot of fun, I\u2019ll tell you that!<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: (laughing<\/em>)<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Understand everything is from my perspective. Somebody whose still alive who was down there with me when we were building it? They might not say what I\u2019m\u2026how they, you know\u2026 like how I feel. Which I<\/em>understand. It\u2019s not for everybody. It wasn\u2019t<\/em> for everybody and that\u2019s\u2026anyway what we did was\u2026we, in the beginning, the first thing was to gain access into where Jonestown was built. And from\u2026from the main road, now you\u2019re talkin\u2019\u2026you don\u2019t have\u2026at that time there\u2019s no private\u2026there was no private people or companies. It was the government of Guyana. So, everything was like a government road, or the government housing. But when we first got there, they\u2026uh\u2026the government gave us\u2026they had a\u2026uh\u2026I forget what they call them, it was like\u2026uh\u2026a youth\u2026a youth\u2026uh\u2026what am I tryin\u2019 to say? Uh\u2026uh\u2026they had barracks that they had built for youth people that were tryin\u2019 to do what we did. Farm and try to make it. But it failed, so here\u2019s these buildings that were…that were\u2026not being used. So, in the early days we stayed in these barracks. Which was in a small town called Port Kaituma. And, what we did was we travelled, every day, approximately three and a half miles to the beginning of our road where Jonestown Road started. And I\u2019m sure you\u2019ve seen the picture where there\u2019s a lot of bananas and plants and there\u2019s a big sign that says, \u201cWelcome to Jonestown\u201d or whatever it says. From that point, where the government road\u2026uh\u2026where our road met the government road, the Jonestown was three and a half miles and it was just…the first time I <\/em>saw it, it was pure raw jungle. It was somethin\u2019 you only see in National Geographic. First time I went in, they had a group of\u2026of uh\u2026th\u2026the indigenous tribe, or people, their called Amerindians. \u00a0And we had, I had\u2026Amerindians in front of us and Amerindians behind us. And they were\u2026all of \u2018em were\u2026they had machetes and they were cho\u2026they were following a trail that a surveyor and these indians had cut. And we\u2026after we went in ta\u2026uh\u2026the three and a half miles, the surveyor looked at us and said, \u201cThis is your center of Jonestown\u201d. And so the way we cleared the jungle to get the jungle…uh cleared away was the Indians, they cut all the trees down. And they did it in sections. And once the trees and everything was cut down, they let it lay on the ground for some days to dry to get, ya know\u2026get rid of some of the green leaves and all that kind of stuff, and then they set fire to it. After they did the whole three and a half miles this way, then I went in with a bulldozer and I cleared all the\u2026cleared our road away. And I had a\u2026a path that they had put stakes on to give me the center of where and it was a thousand feet on each side of\u2026of the center of the road. And I cleared all the trees off\u2026and then I built the road into Jonestown. When the road ended at the center of Jonestown, they had cut\u2026uh thirty acres. Uh\u2026cleared all the trees\u2026cut all the trees down and all that and by this time what we had done\u2026we had the Indians build us\u2026a\u2026a building. And it was made out of trees, poles. We made it where we had six bunks in it, or not bunks, but six beds. We made us our stove. We\u2026there was a spring real close to where the place was in our first part of us\u2026of us being there where we would get our water from. As far as taking care of our needs, sanitation, we\u2019d just hang it over a log, take care of it, and then we\u2019d be back in business. And that was in the\u2026er…early…early days. Once we cleared the thirty acres, then what we did was, we started plotting\u2026or\u2026or planning what we were gonna do. Now we would go into\u2026most of us were living in Port Kaituma at the time because we didn\u2019t have housing for everybody. While this was going on we were building our first building, so we could have everybody live in Jonestown and not live in Port Kaituma. We would map out\u2026just hand draw things and say this is where we want the garden. This is where we want to build a well. This is where we want to build an outhouse. That type of thing. And we just did it on a whim. We didn\u2019t know what we were doin\u2019, we just did it. And that\u2019s how we built Jonestown. Hope that answered your question.<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: It did, thank you, because I was really curious about that. How things actually got started down there from nothing. And\u2026Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Mm\u2026hmmm\u2026 Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>:\u2026you had made mention that it was a pioneering effort\u2026Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Boy, it was…Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>\u2026 a pioneering attitude and boy it sounds like it sure was, sir\u2026Mike (both laugh<\/em>)\u2026caught myself!<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: But we had\u2026it was the\u2026the surveyor, who\u2026his name was Bernie Matthews, and he was\u2026he knew because\u2026uh\u2026that area where we were at, it had a lot of umm\u2026ravines in it. You had high ground, then you had low ground. And so he told us\u2026he showed\u2026he would show us different spots like where we raised then livestock where we kept the chicken and the pigs and the cows was about a mile and a half from the center of Jonestown. And it was on a high spot, so we cleared that away and we knew that was was gonna be where the livestock was. And we did another area where we were gonna put the little\u2026we called \u2018em little cottages\u2026little cottages\u2026the big buildings that we built. We\u2026we knew where we were gonna put everything , but it was sitting down and saying, \u201cOkay, this is how we\u2019re gonna do it.\u201d And then, everybody had a voice in it. The\u2026the\u2026the guy who was the farmer who was in livestock, he would say, \u201cHey, I need to do this this and this. I need this building built. I need to do that\u2026\u201d or whatever it was, and we took care of it. The guy who was into gardening and plants and that type of thing, he said, \u201cI need a building for this. I need to be able to do, ya know, different things\u201d. So, we took care of that. And that\u2019s how we\u2026that\u2019s how we did it. And I\u2019m gonna tell ya, none<\/em> of us\u2026not one of us<\/em> had experience in this kind of stuff before.<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: Um\u2026out of curiosity, and this is probably just a tangent that I\u2019m going on, did you have problems with a-animals from the jungle coming into the camp and upsetting the livestock or\u2026or the food?<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: (clears throat<\/em>) there was two times that we had prob\u2026it\u2026it really wan\u2019t a problem the first time. They have umm\u2026a group of monkeys down there called \u201chowler monkeys\u201d. And when they\u2026they roar and they make one\u2026it\u2026.it\u2026it\u2019s a scary sound really\u2026especially at night and\u2026um you could hear these monkeys way off in the distance and, in the early days, the only thing that we had for electricity was what they\u2026what we called a \u201ckerosene wiki\u201d. And it was like you take a\u2026a small jelly jar, let\u2019s say, you take the lid and you cut a hole in the lid, you take some material to make a wick out of, you take like another\u2026like aluminum, excuse me, wrap the wick in aluminum and set it down in the kerosene and ya light it. So, when we were done at night, all we would do\u2026and that\u2019s when we only had the building for six people. When we were done playing cards, or dominoes, or whatever it was, we\u2019d blow the\u2026blow out our wiki\u2019s and we\u2019d go ta sleep. Well, this one night, these monkeys came right up\u2026right up<\/em> to our building and it scared the bejeebs out of all of us. We didn\u2019t know what\u2026ya know\u2026because we didn\u2019t know what the monkeys were gonna do or anything else. But those things, when\u2026I mean I was sittin\u2019 there and\u2026and\u2026ya know\u2026you\u2019re\u2026you\u2019re shakin\u2019 or whatever and you\u2019re, \u201cMan, did you guys hear that? That thing\u2019s right outside the d\u2026,ya know\u2026outside the building!\u201d Because we had no walls on the building. It was, I mean you\u2019re out in the, you know what I\u2026i\u2026it\u2019s just stuff you see in National Geographic, that\u2019s all I can say. That was one time. The second time is with our\u2026when we started gettin\u2019 pigs, we had a problem with uh vampire mon\u2026uh vampire bats. And so we had ta find out a way to get rid of the bats. Se we di\u2026we had someone go into Georgetown, they did research, they talked to people about it, and we found out how to get rid of the vampire bats. And we did.<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: How\u2019d ya get rid of \u2018em?<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Bats, they go in\u2026and let\u2019s say they go into a building they go in one way and they go out one way. They don\u2019t go deviate and go out the sides. They go in one and go out the other. Well, I don\u2019t remember if it was on the\u2026I think it was on the outside where they would go out. Then, we put up a big net and we would catch the bats. And then you, we\u2019d put poison on \u2018em. And they would go back to the nest and, bats clean each other, and so eventually, they got rid of\u2026we got rid of their\u2026whatever ya call it, colony or whatever\u2026ya know\u2026the whole place was\u2026ya know\u2026we didn\u2019t have problems really with bats after that.<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: So, when the people started\u2026uh arriving en masse, I imagine the whole dynamic obviously changed as well, and there was\u2026uh an adjustment period between those who had already been there and those who were arriving, but (exhales<\/em>) it\u2019s\u2026it\u2019s also from what I have read, things also started ta sour. Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Mmm.hmm\u2026Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: Or\u2026not sour, I don\u2019t know that that would be a correct word…Michael Touchette<\/strong>: That\u2019s a good one\u2026that\u2019s good\u2026Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: But things started to sour and\u2026Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Mmm\u2026hmmm\u2026Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>:\u2026people became somewhat disgruntled and more disenchanted with\u2026with the vision\u2026Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Mmm\u2026hmmm\u2026Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: Would\u2026would that be true for you and your family as well?<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Well, I\u2019ll tell ya, I can\u2019t speak for the rest of my family. Uh\u2026nobody\u2019s alive in my family who\u2026uh who was down there. But, at the time it\u2026I can\u2026it\u2026it\u2026I can\u2026like I said this is my perspective and the way I feel. I\u2019d still be there. I\u2026I believed in what we were doin\u2019, and I enjoyed it so<\/em> much. The only thing that topped that was the birth of my kids and my grandbabies. Other than that, I\u2019ve never had a time in my life like I had down there. Doin\u2019 what I did. But, it soured. You\u2026it\u2026that\u2019s a very good term. That\u2019s\u2026that was good. An\u2019 it\u2026when all the people\u2026because there was a time period from when we started getting people down there until Jim showed up. And then, once he showed up, that\u2019s when everything just totally went to the pits that\u2019s\u2026that\u2019s\u2026that did every\u2026that did it in was when he showed up.<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: What was your impression of him, if I might ask?<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Oh, sure. In the beginning, there was good. Here\u2019s a man whose talkin\u2019 about how the injustice in the world, especially here in the States, uh how it\u2026it had to change. We had programs that were goin\u2019 on. We were helpin\u2019 feeding people. Clothing people. And, ya know, being a young\u2026a young guy i\u2026it to me was the greatest thing goin\u2019. And then I really had no impression\u2026anything\u2026not an admiration so to speak but, no negative side or no real positive side\u2026uh to him when I went to Guyana. But, once I was there and he showed up, then through the help of people\u2026uh one person, Stephen\u2026Stephen Jones\u2026then I saw what was goin\u2019 on. Cause I didn\u2019t know. I had no clue.<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: And then, what did he help you see? If you can speak about that. (unintelligible overtalking\u2026)<\/em><\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Umm\u2026he helped me see that\u2026uh \u00a0like what he\u2026what his dad was doin\u2019. \u00a0Ya\u2019 know, druggin\u2019 people for sex. There was\u2026uh real dear friend of Stephen\u2019s who\u2026a female\u2026who they drugged so he (Mr. Touchette was referencing Jim Jones\u2026not Stephen<\/em>) could have sex with her. Uh\u2026and about the White Nights and people invading us\u2026eh\u2026in the beginning oh I believed it. Ya know\u2026um you\u2019re only hearin\u2019 a source from one man, ya\u2019 know\u2026or one person. And Stephen\u2026uh told, ya\u2019 know he set me down and said, \u201cHey! This is wrong. Ya\u2019 know, he\u2019s not\u2026it\u2019s not true.\u201d \u00a0And then my, when that\u2026when that happened that\u2019s when my whole perspective of Jim Jones just totally changed. And also\u2026and also too is that up until\u2026up until I went into play basketball, there was people who wanted to leave. And we had a meeting with\u2026uh Marceline, Stephen\u2019s mama and there was\u2026there was several of us in this meeting. And we said, \u201cYa\u2019 know, enough\u2019s enough. People wanna leave, let \u2018em leave.\u201d Ya\u2019 know? Because that type of life, and I don\u2019t know how much of a South you\u2019ve been into like down in Miami. Or if you\u2019ve been in the islands in South America, but weather\u2026the humidity\u2026and the heat\u2026for some people it\u2019s unbearable. You can\u2019t take it. Well, sure then there\u2019s gonna be people who wanna leave. Ya\u2019 know and the food\u2026the people…uh we only had limited food. But at the same time, everybody ate, ya\u2019 know? And so\u2026I\u2026 like I said\u2026I can understand people wanting to leave and we believed<\/em> they should be able to leave. But Jim didn\u2019t want that. And, ya\u2019 know, like I said when Stephen started talkin\u2019 to me that\u2019s when I changed my perspective about Jim. But not about Jonestown. Like I said, I\u2019d still be down there today.<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: How did\u2026how did your life change\u2026I\u2019m going to skip forward\u2026how did your life change after November 18th<\/sup>?<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Uh (sighs<\/em>)\u2026after getting over the initial shock because we were treated\u2026we were treated good, but we had a hard time when everybody died. They put all of us who were in\u2026in the house, in Georgetown, there was like fifty some odd people in this house. People who had just come in from the States, who were gonna go to Jonestown. We had people from Jonestown who came into Georgetown who needed medical or whatever. But, after\u2026when that night that everything happened, they\u2026uh\u2026Sharon Amos killed her\u2026her and her two kids\u2026were\u2026three\u2026yeah\u2026two\u2026yeah three kids were killed, and the\u2026the police knew somewhat was was goin\u2019 on in Jonestown. Now, the only way you could communicate is by short-wave radio at the time. There was no cell phones or anything like that, it was by short-wave radio. And they had already started getting messages about the congressman (Ryan<\/em>) being killed and all that. Well, they put us under house arrest. \u00a0And we were under house arrest for one to two weeks, I wanna say. And so being treated that way\u2026uh being under house arrest\u2026like I said, we weren\u2019t treated bad. Uh I don\u2019t remember anything bad about it, ya know\u2026brutality or nothin\u2019. It was they treated us nice its just we were under house arrest. And\u2026uh so that took some of the hurt, or the shock out of what happened with all the people dyin\u2019. But, when it was all over with and there was the people who left Jonestown on their own while all the killing was goin\u2019 on they\u2026uh we hooked-up with one another. Now there was suspicion there. Where they\u2026they uh \u2026there was not like a trust between us. Between the two different groups, if you wanna call it that. To where, ya know, if you had a buddy in\u2026in Jonestown and ya know, \u201cHey how ya\u2019 doin\u2019?!\u201d this that and the other thing and then whenever they showed up in Jone\u2026Georgetown, where we were, it was like, \u201cHey, how ya\u2019 doin\u2019? Talk to ya later.\u201d\u00a0 i\u2026i\u2026it wan\u2019t the same. And that\u2026uh and all that kind a like took the shock out of what happened. Then when we found out\u2026uh exactly what took place in\u2026in\u2026in Jonestown and in Port Kaituma, then it was like\u2026uh cut your heart out (unintelligible<\/em>). I remember that we\u2026uh had a pretty good yard\u2026the and we all went out and just sat in little groups in the yard cryin\u2019, holdin\u2019 one another. When we found out exactly what happened. And then (clears throat<\/em>) people left\u2026uh the government took\u2026the US government paid ways to get us back\u2026and they didn\u2019t pay it\u2026they put a loan\u2026a lean against that person. They had to pay the lean off before they could get like a passport again or whatever it was. But then there was just a small group of us that were still there (coughs<\/em>). And myself, and a few other people, decided we were gonna stay and ride it out for as long as we could. My father, and my grandmother, and another man by the name of Richard Janaro, and an Englishman who was part of the Temple by the name of Philip Blakey, they\u2026those four people\u2026were\u2026uh, we had a big ship. They were in…they were on our ship in Caracas, Venezuela buying supplies. And when they\u2026they came back to Georgetown sometime after all the killing, and my grandmother (clears throat<\/em>) and this man by the name of Richard Janaro, they came on back to the States and my dad and this other gentleman named Philip Blakey, we stayed. And we had a business offer from an insurance agent who carried insurance for\u2026for our\u2026our boats and ya\u2019 know liability and all\u2026and all that kind of stuff and he made us a business proposition to take control of the boat, we would sell the boat to Grenada, they would take control of the boat through the government and seize the boat put it their name and then they had bought an island and they wanted us to run the boat to haul freight between the islands, which their so many islands at that time had no means of\u2026i\u2026it was no boating going in with supplies and they were hurting the whole time. So, we made the arrangement with \u2018em and we went to Grenada after\u2026we went to Grenada, I forget when it was\u2026May or June of \u201979, and we stayed in Grenada. And our plan was to run the boat on the island to the islands and they wanted us to help build their\u2026their island up and they would have a place where we\u2019d build a place for us on their island. And that all went down the tubes when (clears throat<\/em>) the\u2026the Cuban\u2026the Cuban-backed government\u2026uh took over the American government that was in\u2026that was in at the time. So, we never, the\u2026the plans ne\u2026never materialized to do what they wanted ta do. When I came back into the States\u2026when D\u2026when myself and Debbie came back into the States, it was very hard. Very very hard. Uh\u2026number one: the time that, ya\u2019 know growin\u2019 up there\u2019s a time period so to speak, where you learn about how to control your money. How to get a job. How to do this. How to do\u2026ya\u2019 know you\u2019re growin\u2019 up? And you\u2026you learn these things. Well, here I\u2019m\u2026when I came back to the States, I was twenty-six, I think? I think twenty-six and here I am, yeah twenty-six, and here I am\u2026I had no<\/em> clue<\/em> about a bank account. Now I\u2019m not jokin\u2019 you, I had no clue. I had no clue of how to control money. I had no clue about goin\u2019 out and really getting a job. And, when I did, two things that hurt me was number one; \u201cWell, where ya\u2019 been, there\u2019s no record of you?\u201d \u201cWell, I\u2019ve been in South America.\u201d \u201cOh, you were a part of that crazy group?\u201d \u201cYeah.\u201d \u201cNo, we\u2019re not gonna hire you.\u201d Or, if I got past all that when they found out I was married to a black woman, that canned it. And then also at that time, back in 1979, there was a big movement goin\u2019 on for equal rights of women. So, I was looked over for jobs that gave to women and I, ya\u2019 know, how do you deal with that? I..it was just, that\u2019s where I had a real hard time when\u2026when we first came back. Hope that answered that.<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: I\u2026it did answer that. It answered it quite well. Uh\u2026in the 70\u2019s and 80\u2019s I\u2019m going to go out on a limb, you were also dealing with the returnees from Vietnam. And\u2026 Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Mm\u2026hmmm. Yes, we were. (slight talking over<\/em>) Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>\u2026they were trying to readjust to society as well and there wasn\u2019t really\u2026uh any<\/em> grasp of based upon post traumatic stress disorder. It wasn\u2019t even a concept really, at the time and I don\u2019t think an\u2026anybody experiencing anything along those lines had a good solid foundation to turn to for help.<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Yeah. You\u2019re right. Absolutely right.<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: So, considering what you\u2019ve just shared, what help, do you wish, was<\/em> made available to you once you had returned?<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Wow! That\u2019s a good question. I don\u2019t know. They did have\u2026they had a \u2026a\u2026a group\u2026errr not a group, I forget the guy\u2019s name. Chris Hatcher, maybe? I think he was a psychologist? And, I think, I\u2019m not\u2026you can\u2019t take me on this because I really don\u2019t remember. But we had access to this man and\u2026uh which I met with him once or twice, and I have no clue what it was about. I\u2026I coul\u2026I don\u2019t remember. But\u2026umm I know that a lot of people, when they came back, they went off the deep end. And I understand that. I understand it perfectly. And\u2026uh for me, it was just\u2026I dealt with it. It\u2019s the best I could tell ya\u2019. I\u2026uh the best I could. I dealt with it. And I went and\u2026uh for the first, we came back in 19\u2026November of 1979. Yeah. 1979. And for the year, two years that I lived in California it was just\u2026I\u2019m living. Ya\u2019 know I had\u2026I had a guy who was in the Peoples Temple who, who\u2026uh I was good friends with. He put us up in his home got me\u2026helped me get a job. Helped me get on my feet. And I just dealt with it. I had, at that time, I had a lot of guilt. Over Jonestown. Uh, a lot of guilt. And, in my own way, I found I came out of the guilt. I recognized ya\u2019 know, I really had nothing to be guilty about. A lot of hurt and pain because here, my whole family\u2026uh basically died in Jonestown. And start a family and ya\u2019 know set\u2026we sit there and say, \u201cOh I wish Mom was here to see our kids.\u201d Ya\u2019 know, this type of thing. And it was\u2026it was really hard. It was really really hard. But, to be perfectly honest with you, and I mean this from the bottom of my heart, I am happy. I am very happy that I\u2019ve turned out the way I have. Because I can look at some people and say, ya\u2019 know, \u201cYou need help.\u201d Yeah, I may need help, too, I\u2019m kinda crazy (Katherine laughs<\/em>). But, uh\u2026.no in all seriousness (Mr. Touchette chuckles<\/em>), but\u2026uh, ya\u2019 know, those were some tough times. Real tough times.<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: Did you find your\u2026your best support group was other members of Peoples Temple?<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: No. Actually\u2026uh actually the\u2026with\u2026I\u2026I wish I could remember and I, like I said, I don\u2019t have my paper. But\u2026uh and I was plan\u2026planning on getting it and I don\u2019t know where it is with all my stuff that I packed. But um\u2026when we came back into the States in 8\u20268\u2026in \u201979\u2026when we came back in \u201979 and we stayed with Wayne Pietila and his family, they helped me to get on my feet. And then within a year, year and a half I wanna say, we moved to Miami. And there, when we moved to Miami, It was just myself, my wife, my…my son who was a baby, and her\u2026her mom and dad. And that\u2019s all there was for me in Miami. And, I can look at\u2026there\u2019s some people I can look at and, ya\u2019 know, I handled my\u2026I handle all of my inner demons my way and they handled it their way. And I\u2019m not sayin\u2019 I\u2019m right or wrong or whatever, but I\u2019m happy. And I can look at other people and say\u2026and look at \u2018em and know they\u2019re not happy and talk to \u2018em. Because they\u2019re still, they still have stuff inside of them from Jonestown. That<\/em>, I can tell you, is a fact.<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: Do you\u2026are\u2026are you currently\u2026uh participating in a religion? Are\u2026are you spiritual or without a need for\u2026<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Well, I\u2019ll tell you what. I\u2026uh my wife, she left me. I forget when, I think it was 1987. It was \u201987. And I would have left me, okay? I was\u2026I was\u2026uh today it\u2019s called \u201ccrack\u201d. Back in those days it was called \u201cfree-basing cocaine\u201d. And I worked in a restaurant and one of the guys\u2026and I was not every day but, ya\u2019 know, some guy would say, \u201cHey, you know, you wanna line?\u201d So, I \u2018d snort a line of coke. Well, this one time this cook said, \u201cHey, we\u2019re gonna free-base. You wanna come over and free-base?\u201d \u201cWhat\u2019s free-basing?\u201d He told me and I said, \u201cSure.\u201d So, I went and I got home, Debbie was sittin\u2019 on the bed with her bible open, she asked me where I\u2019d been and I told her the truth. Ya know? They wanted to free-base and I said, \u201cSure. Let\u2019s give it a shot.\u201d \u00a0And I said that, \u201cI\u2019m not gonna do it again. Ya\u2019 know? an I did it a one-time thing.\u201d Well, she took off and she left me. That made me reevaluate my whole situation. And she showed back up. And we were staying with her mom and dad at the time. And my daughter was about, this would have been \u201985\u2026around \u201985, I wanna say\u2026when my daughter was born. She was born in \u201980. No, \u201983. Excuse me, she\u2026my daughter was born in \u201983. So, about two years\u2026she was about two years old (coughs<\/em>). When she came back\u2026my wife came back\u2026and I opened the door, my little girl was standing there holding her arms out. Now tha\u2026that instance changed my\u2026that experience changed my life to this day. And, I\u2026I one of the conditions for me to come back to \u2018em was; I had to go to church. That\u2019s one of the conditions my wife picked-out to me. So, I went to church. I gave my life to Christ. Got heavily <\/em>involved in the church. And, I became an\u2026an ordained minister. A deacon. I was gonna be going into an associate pastoral and all this and my wife, who\u2026she\u2019s one, who to this day, is still suffering from Jonestown. And I watch things. And, if you got Christ in your life, you should flourish. Your family should flourish. You should\u2026there shouldn\u2019t be no doubt\u2026yeah you\u2019re gonna go through your times and this that an the other thing. But our family, was basically being torn apart. Because the way\u2026how she was. Try to meet with the pastors of the church and it turned out that they were basically there only for money. And, over a period of time, I just said, \u201cEnough.\u201d I\u2019d had enough. I mean here I\u2019ve gone through the Peoples Temple and not that they resembled the Peoples Temple in any way shape or form, but some of the pastors had \u201cPastor Appreciation Day\u201d, or week, or whatever it was\u2026and they expected you to come up and give \u2018em money and gifts and all this kind of thing. And I started thinkin\u2019 about\u2026lookin\u2019 around the\u2026the church, here\u2019s single moms with three or four kids who can hardly make it and they\u2019re giving these pastors all their money. Which I totally disagree with. And my wife, she was one of \u2018em. She wouldn\u2019t work. The Lord told her not to work. So she wouldn\u2019t\u2026she wouldn\u2019t maintain and job. Then I was makin\u2019 six dollars an hour. Bought a house and I was doin\u2019 everything I could to keep food on the table and keep the electricity on and keep aware they\u2019re not gonna for\u2026foreclose on the house. Sayin\u2019 all that to say that I\u2019m spiritual\u2026to me there\u2019s a lot more to it than what there is in the Bible. And I\u2026since I\u2019ve moved here to Texas, one of the conditions (chuckles<\/em>)\u2026one of th (laughs<\/em>)\u2026one of the conditions with my son and his wife is that I have to attend their church every so often. So, out of the couple of months that I\u2019ve been out here, I think I might have missed two weeks or whatever it is. Which, I\u2019m not really enthused about their church, but I\u2019m livin\u2019 in their home, so I\u2019m doin\u2019 what I\u2019m asked to do. Now I hope that one answered your question. (laughs<\/em>)<\/p>\n Katherine Klapperich<\/strong>: It does! It certainly does. And\u2026<\/p>\n Michael Touchette<\/strong>: Now I wanna say\u2026I wanna say somethin\u2019 about Debbie. Off<\/em> the record.<\/p>\n