{"id":112134,"date":"2021-11-07T15:37:44","date_gmt":"2021-11-07T23:37:44","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=112134"},"modified":"2021-11-07T15:37:44","modified_gmt":"2021-11-07T23:37:44","slug":"an-interview-with-charles-johnson-text","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=112134","title":{"rendered":"An Interview with Charles Johnson (Text)"},"content":{"rendered":"

Katherine Klapperich:<\/strong> All right, uh, it is September 28th<\/sup> at 10:09 am in the year 2021, and my name is Katherine Klapperich, and I am a master\u2019s student at Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley, California and I have the honor today of speaking with Mr. Charles Johnson who is a survivor of Peoples Temple and I wanted to go over a few of the guidelines before we begin, as we discussed already, that you understand that this interview and all the questions are subject to your discretion and I have your permission to give this interview and at any time, if you feel uncomfortable, you may either refuse to answer or you may also end or terminate or withdrawal at this\u2026from this interview at any time. Is this agreeable?<\/p>\n

Charles Johnson:<\/strong> Uh\u2026yes, it is.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> And we are doing a phone interview and it is oh, it is\u2026I have your permission to record this interview. Is that correct?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> Yes, you do.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> And you are\u2026you do not need me to have you remain anonymous, and I may also post this interview on a website that\u2026so that others may learn from your experiences. Is this correct?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> Yes, that\u2019s correct.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> All right. So (rustling of papers<\/em>) got that out of the way…So, for the record; what is your name and when were you born? (slight talking over<\/em>)<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> I\u2026<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> Where were you born?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> Okay (clears throat<\/em>) Uh\u2026Charles William Johnson. I was born August 12th<\/sup>, 1955, and what used to be General Hospital Los Angeles, California. They\u2019ve changed the name since I was born, I don\u2019t know what it is now.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> All right. And when did you become part of Peoples Temple?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> Uh, it\u2019s hard to say. Uh, my Mother was going to\u2026uh\u2026Peoples Temple Church when I was in junior high school. And I never went with her. And, uh, I remember when I became a senior in high school, she finally said the magic words to have me come and, and uh, to the church, and just look around \u2018cause she said, \u201cThere\u2019s plenty of girls there.\u201d So, when she said that, I said, \u201cOkay, I\u2026I\u2019ll come Mom and check it out.\u201d So that\u2019s when I did, I don\u2019t know if I ever officially became a member. I can\u2019t remember if they had an actual official membership drive, or something you signed of whatever, but\u2026uh\u2026I did become, uh, a member. Uh\u2026not right then and there. I actually would go to certain services so with my Mom, but I didn\u2019t become a member right away. It took awhile.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> What was your impression of the Peoples Temple philosophy?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> Well, I wasn\u2019t really much into religion. The thing that…uh\u2026got my attention was\u2026uh\u2026their\u2026uh\u2026advocacy of\u2026uh\u2026socialism. Ya\u2019 know for some reason I\u2019ve always been an advocate of that. Of\u2026uh\u2026equal sharing and\u2026uh\u2026people helping people and\u2026and uh\u2026ya\u2019 know doing the best you can to further\u2026uh\u2026mankind, so that was the hook that got me interested in Peoples Temple. I really wasn\u2019t\u2026uh\u2026a religious person at that time.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> So, did you understand this to be a socialist or–or communist community more\u2014more than a religious community?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> Yeah. That\u2019s how, that\u2019s how I looked at it but, obviously\u2026um\u2026the majority of the people involved looked at it as…uh\u2026uh\u2026as a–as a religious awakening. Uh, so to speak. But\u2026uh\u2026I didn\u2019t look at it all. I kind uh ignored that part and just focused on what he was talkin\u2019 about\u2026uh socialism. Uh (clears throat<\/em>), I remember one time he (Jim Jones<\/em>) had told the congregation that he was the reincarnation of Vladimir Lenin. So\u2026um\u2026(clears throat<\/em>) Ya\u2019 know whether you believe that or not, I did believe in the socialistic\u2026uh\u2026philosophy\u2026uh\u2026at that time up \u2018til this day.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> Okay. So, did you feel that your participation, when you were interacting with the community was as valued as everyone else\u2019s? That you were on equal footing with everyone else within the organization?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> Um\u2026well with the people that I worked with that I knew personally, \u2018cause there was a different tier of people. Ya\u2019 know, obviously, there was Jim Jones, and the people close to him. And then there was two or three tiers of people underneath him that\u2026uh\u2026 that you knew but you know they were busy, ya\u2019 know\u2026uh\u2026doin\u2019 this work or that work. They used to call him \u201cFather\u201d. Ya\u2019 know we\u2019re doin\u2019 this work for Father or doin\u2019 that work for Father. And\u2014and so, ya\u2019 know they were a little bit above\u2026uh\u2026what you want to call the rank-and\u2026rank-and-file members. Uh\u2026but, you know I was like\u2026uh\u2026me and my wife were like rank-and-file members. Ya\u2019 know we\u2026uh\u2026she cooked in the kitchen we did security work. We–we did a number of things around\u2014around the church.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> Now, you were–were you married in the church? Did this\u2014is that where you met your wife?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> Uh no. Actually, I had gone to the church for awhile and really didn\u2019t connect with any of the…uh\u2026the members there. Uh\u2026because they were just too much into the religious part as far as Jim Jones was concerned. And actually (muffled<\/em>) calling him \u201cGod\u201d. And so, it was kinda hard to get past that. You know \u2018cause I was\u2014you know (muffled<\/em>) I was 17, 18, 19, and\u2014and realistically, ya\u2019 know I was looking to try and bed down as many women as I could. Ya\u2019 know I wasn\u2019t really into that religious part, and I wasn\u2019t a member yet. So, I would meet people\u2014meet different young ladies and they were just so into it that, ya\u2019 know, it\u2014it was hard to break through that and I was thinkin\u2019 to myself, ya\u2019 know, \u201cWhy work this hard? Ya\u2019 know there\u2019s plenty of girls outside this church that\u2026uh\u2026that would be easier to get to.\u201d So, I stopped going. So\u2026uh\u2026no I didn\u2019t\u2026uh\u2026meet my wife in the church. Uh, I met here outside of the church.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> So, when did you\u2014when did you and your wife get married?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> Um\u2026we married in 1975. It was a double wedding with another couple in the neighborhood that I had actually grown up with. And I had no intention of\u2026uh\u2026going back to Peoples Temple. \u00a0Ya\u2019 know I had a young beautiful wife, and I was trying to make a go of it, but my Mother invited my wife to the church and, she loved it. She\u2026uh\u2026joined right away and that pulled me back in. Now the strange thing about\u2026uh\u2026my wife and this is–this is really strange; I was delivering furniture, I worked for this furniture company, I was deliverin\u2019 furniture in the building, and she was a few stories up and she kept lookin\u2019 down through this screen, and finally I looked up at her and I said, \u201cWould you like to go to dinner? I\u2019ll come pick you up when I get off.\u201d And I did. And when my Mother met her, now when my wife was from Cleveland, Ohio. My Mother grew up in Seattle, Washington. And we found out that my Mother used to date my wife\u2019s father before he married her mother.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> Oh, my!<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> Yes, and\u2026uh\u2026actually in\u2026uh\u2026Seattle Washington. So\u2026<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> Well, that\u2019s a small world\u2026<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> My wife\u2019s father and my Mother dated.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> That\u2014that–that\u2019s funny. (laughs<\/em>)<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> (muffled<\/em>). That was—that was strange.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> I\u2019ll bet! It\u2019s a small world.<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> Yes. And here we are in Los Angeles, California. And\u2014and so\u2026um\u2026uh\u2026anyway, when my\u2026uh\u2026when we wanted to get married\u2026actually my Mother said we had to go and speak to\u2026uh\u2026uh\u2026somebody at the church. It was like a group of people. And they put me and my wife in the middle and they had us surrounded. We were in a circle and\u2026uh\u2026all these—it was men and women, but all these women were askin\u2019 me questions and—I mean they were, they were kind of vicious and antagonistic towards me.\u00a0 Wanted to know why I wanted to marry—I mean ya\u2019 know it was something that really upset me.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> Yeah, and that was at\u2014at—at Peoples Temple? At the church?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> (muffled<\/em>) was at Peoples Temple. The one in\u2026uh\u2026Los Angeles. I believe it was on Alvarado. And\u2026uh\u2026ya\u2019 know they just kept badgerin\u2019 me and\u2026uh\u2026I ya\u2019 know I don\u2019t know if I answered the questions to their\u2026uh\u2026satisfaction or not, but shortly after that me and wife did get married.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> All right. So, how long was it after you were married that your daughter came along?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> Uh (clears throat<\/em>) my daughter came along\u2026um\u2026a little over a year later. She was born on\u2026uh\u2026June 5th<\/sup>, 1976, and, strangely enough, um\u2026later on in life I have\u2026uh\u2026three sons now, and three more daughters. But my middle son was born on June 5th<\/sup>, 1993.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> Wow.<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> And\u2014and—in fact, my current wife has a daughter who was born on June 5th<\/sup> also.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> Wow. So, where, if I might ask, where were you on November 18th<\/sup>, 1978?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> I was working—at the time I was working at…uh\u2026Jack Lalanne\u2019s health club, and\u2026uh\u2026Inglewood, California on Century Boulevard and didn\u2019t know anything about it. But\u2026uh\u2026a friend of mine had\u2026uh\u2026come up and\u2026uh\u2026sh–she came in and said, \u201cDid you hear the news?\u201d And I said, \u201cNo. What news?\u201d She said there was some shooting at the\u2026uh\u2026at the\u2026uh\u2026where the plane was taking off over in Guyana. And I said, \u201cReally?\u201d and she said, \u201cYeah. You didn\u2019t hear about it?\u201d And I said, \u201cNo.\u201d So\u2026uh\u2026that\u2019s when I heard about it then\u2026uh\u2026when I went home from work that day, ya\u2019 know the news reports were comin\u2019 out. Ya\u2019 know this was before cable and 24-hour news cycles, so you had to wait for the news, but every now and then they had special reports.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> It\u2019s my understanding that your wife and daughter were in Guyana at the Agricultural Project?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> Uh\u2026Yes, they were.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> What brought them down there?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> Uh\u2026we had\u2026we had had an agreement we were gonna separate for awhile. And she went to stay with an\u2026uh\u2026uncle of hers who worked at some hospital. He\u2026uh\u2026he lived in the LA area. So, her and my daughter were stain\u2019 with her uncle. And, at the time, we\u2026uh\u2026had an apartment, but I had moved back home at that—at that period of time. And\u2026um\u2026according to the\u2014that\u2019s the way I understood it the\u2026uh\u2026passport that my daughter had that she was not able to leave the country without my signature. But\u2026um\u2026ya\u2019 know that obviously they got around that and\u2026um\u2026I got a letter. And this had to be in the summer of\u2026uh\u2026\u201978. Maybe June or July. And I got a letter \u2018cause I didn\u2019t know she was gone. \u00a0From\u2026uh\u2026my wife sayin\u2019 that she was over there. And we had always had this—this thing where we were gonna put a code in a letter and we said, \u201cIf there\u2019s ever anything wrong, that code was gonna be in the letter.\u201d And she wrote me the letter \u2018cause\u2026uh\u2026we—we didn\u2019t know what happened, but \u2018ya know we found out later that letters—letters were\u2026uh\u2026read before they were sent out. And ya\u2019 know, her letter was basic stuff, \u2018ya know—how \u2018ya doin\u2019? Here everything\u2019s great. But then the last line of that letter she put that phrase in there, and I knew somethin\u2019 was wrong.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> All right, and when you found out that something was wrong, how did you react to that?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> Well at the time, I wanted to get\u2026uh\u2026the money—I—I wanted to get\u2026uh\u2026the money together and go over there. Uh\u2026but you know\u2026uh\u2026raised in South Central LA\u2026uh\u202623 years old—it\u2019s\u2014it\u2019s kinda hard to come up with airfare to fly out of the country. And ya\u2019 know, I\u2019d talked to some of my friends, and they were tryin\u2019 ta—they were tryin\u2019 to\u2026uh\u2026help me raise money, but I just couldn\u2019t do it. I\u2019d also gotten my passport, but my Mom had said, \u201cWell, just let the church have your passport.\u201d So, actually, Peoples Temple\u2019s had my passport, so at the time I wasn\u2019t even in possession of it. So, I wasn\u2019t able\u2026uh\u2026to get over there. I was in the process of tryin\u2019 to get the money together. Then, of course\u2026uh\u2026ya\u2019 know what happened on November 18th<\/sup> and it wasn\u2019t necessary anymore.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> Now it\u2019s also my understanding that your mother was not in Guyana at the time. She was still in LA. Is that correct?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> That is correct. Uh\u2026my Mother\u2019s\u2026uh\u2026best friend, and her best friend\u2019s name was \u201cMary\u201d, I do not remember her last name, but we know that she perished over in\u2026uh\u2026Jonestown. But, yes, my Mother had her\u2026uh\u2026footlocker packed with all the stuff that the church had told her to\u2026uh\u2026to get—to get together and she had that, and she was ready to go. Now\u2026uh\u2026my stepdad\u2026uh\u2026he was not a member of\u2026uh\u2026Peoples Temple and he didn\u2019t—of course he didn\u2019t believe in\u2026uh\u2026in anything Jim Jones\u2026uh\u2026was sayin\u2019 and I can\u2019t ever remember him goin\u2019 to a service. Ya\u2019 know, he—he may have gone to one, but to the best of my memory I don\u2019t ever remember him\u2026uh\u2026ever goin\u2019 to a service.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> All right. You also said that\u2014that when you were finding out, over the news, that potentially your wife and daughter may have come to harm, that your mother had told you that they were still alive? Yes?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> Oh, yes. Yes. This was a few months after\u2026uh\u2026what happened. Uh\u2026I would say this is probably\u2026uh\u2026maybe February or March of \u201979. My Mother said they were at some house. And I believe it was in Santa Clara? I\u2014I don\u2019t remember exactly where it was, but somewhere—some little city in the Bay Area and my Mom actually had an address. And\u2026um\u2026I—I remember I was supposed to start a new job on a Monday. And that Saturday I was playin\u2019 at a baseball game, and I had\u2026uh\u2026slid into home and twisted my ankle real bad. So, I was on crutches, and I went up to\u2026uh\u2026this address, on my crutches, and people answered the door and they said they didn\u2019t know what I was talkin\u2019 about. They didn\u2019t know the people I was askin\u2019 for. I mean they were very nice considering the fact that, ya\u2019 know, I\u2019m comin\u2019 in asking for somebody that doesn\u2019t live there.\u00a0 But I was convinced that\u2026uh\u2026the information that my Mom had was not correct and they were not there.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> All right. Did you ask your mom about that?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> I—you know what? I don\u2019t remember if I asked my Mom about that at all. It was very difficult to talk to my Mom about Jim Jones and\u2026uh\u2026because she was a big believer in Jim Jones. She had claimed to have seen him drivin\u2019 a car, behind her, months after what happened in\u2026uh\u2026Jonestown. She said she saw him in the rearview mirror, he put his finger up to his lips, like for her to be quiet, and that he was still alive. And at that point I knew that any discussion about Peoples Temple and Jim Jones would have been\u2026uh\u2026difficult\u2026uh\u2026to talk to with my Mother because\u2026uh\u2026a\u2014at that time I just don\u2019t think she was thinkin\u2019 right or in her right mind.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> All right. So, as you were finding out information, as its trickling over the airwaves\u2026uh\u2026to you, was there any kind of—of help that was being made to those people who were still survivors of Peoples Temple to get information, or to find out what\u2019s going on with their loved ones? How—how were you treated?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> There was no information at all. I just remembered\u2026um\u2026I was stayin\u2019 with a friend of mine and the house was surrounded by FBI agents, and they came in and asked me a bunch of questions. And with me being, ya\u2019 know, basically part of the rank-and-file, somebody on the outside who wasn\u2019t in \u201cthe know\u201d as far as what was goin\u2019 on, there was nothin\u2019 I could tell \u2018em. Ya\u2019 know, it was just\u2026uh\u2026uh\u2026uh\u2026impossible for me to give them any information. I\u2019m sure at that point that they knew more than I did. But they weren\u2019t givin\u2019 up any information either. They were just askin\u2019 questions. Uh\u2026the only person who really reached out a hand to help me was\u2026uh\u2026Elaine Brown who was the head of the Black Panther Party at that time. Uh\u2026some kind of way either I got in touch with her, or–or she with me, I don\u2019t remember how it came about. \u00a0But she was\u2026uh\u2026very sympathetic she\u2026uh\u2026invited me up to Oakland to stay in a safe house just to get away from the news. Uh\u2026she sent down a bunch of\u2026uh\u2026the Black Panther newspapers that the time\u2026uh\u2026\u2019cause, ya\u2019 know, they were—they were strapped for money also and told me, ya\u2019 know, just to\u2026uh\u2026sell \u2018em and keep the money and—and hopefully that would help get me through a difficult time. But ya\u2019 know, that was—that was really nice of her. That was\u2026uh\u2026uh\u2026unexpected. But other than that, there was no help\u2026uh\u2026from anybody a\u2014at\u2014at\u2026uh\u2026anytime. Unless\u2026um\u2026uh\u2026when I finally went back to work, I met the actor Philip Michael Thomas, and he took one look at me and knew there was somethin\u2019 wrong. And he\u2026uh\u2026eventually I opened to him. He took me to lunch, and kept in touch with me, and he was very sympathetic and\u2014and very helpful getting me through that time. But other than these two people\u2026uh\u2026there was no kind of help. Ya\u2019 know either official or unofficial.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> You had also said that you were also part of the \u201crank and file\u201d. As part of the rank and file, how did you participate? I—I do believe, in one of our earlier conversations that you had mentioned taking buses up to San Francisco?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> Uh\u2026yeah. Uh\u2026it did seem like every other week buses would come down from San Francisco for service in Los Angeles and then, the alternate week, buses from Los Angeles would go up to San Francisco. Uh\u2026now the thing about that\u2026uh\u2026my wife at the time had a brother who lived in San Francisco. And so what we would do\u2026uh\u2026with\u2026uh\u2026with our baby, baby girl, we would catch the bus up there, and we would get off of the bus at the San Francisco temple, we would go catch the city bus to her brother\u2019s house, \u00a0spend the weekend sightseein\u2019 an–and hangin\u2019 out with her brother, and get back to the buses just in time \u00a0to get on and come back to LA and nobody ever missed us.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> (chuckles<\/em>) So\u2014so you were also telling me about a ping-pong game.<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> Uh\u2026yes. This was\u2026uh\u2026they were\u2026uh\u2026they were expecting a visit from Angela Davis. And this was at the San Francisco temple. And I guess this was one of the times that me and my wife\u2026uh\u2026didn\u2019t go an\u2019 see her brother. And me and\u2026uh\u2026Jim Jones\u2019 son (Stephan<\/em>) were playin\u2019 ping-pong, and somethin\u2019 happened, and we got into a argument, and it almost came to blows. People had to pull us apart. Now we\u2019re there waiting for Angela Davis to come and it woulda looked pretty bad if she walks in there an–and\u2026uh\u2026somebody i–is fightin\u2019 one of Jim Joneses\u2019 sons. So, they\u2014they pulled us apart, cooler heads prevailed and\u2014and\u2026uh\u2026Miss Davis did come through and everything worked out, but, ya know, that\u2014that was\u2014I look back on it and I\u2019m sure whatever we were\u2026uh\u2026arguing about was silly. But at the time, ya\u2019 know, when you\u2019re–you\u2019re teenagers and there\u2019s\u2026uh\u2026people around watching you\u2014you don\u2019t want to take a step back, so, ya\u2019 know, we almost came to blows. But that\u2026uh\u2026that I just\u2026a\u2014a memory that I have of\u2026uh\u2026that period of time because when\u2026uh\u2026Angela Davis came through she was very nice and\u2014and talked to everybody and she seemed to be\u2026uh\u2026impressed with the things she saw. Because, I mean, they had fake things goin\u2019 on. They had it like\u2026uh\u2026there was people in there on drugs and we were helpin\u2019 \u2018em, ya\u2019 know, which wasn\u2019t true at that time. I\u2019m not sayin\u2019 they never helped anybody get off of drugs, but that day they were fakin\u2019 it. They had members actin\u2019 like they were strung out on drugs and other members there\u2026uh\u2026helpin\u2019 \u2018em.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> That\u2019s\u2014that\u2019s quite interesting. So, what other stories do you remember?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> Umm\u2026I do remember, and I think this is when\u2026uh\u2026now that I think about it, it\u2019s this\u2014well I think I did go up and join the church. And I remember walkin\u2019 back and, then maybe I was–maybe I was 21\u201422, this\u2026uh\u2026older\u2014older guy, he\u2026uh\u2026put somethin\u2019 in my hand, when I\u2019m walkin\u2019\u2014shakin\u2019 peoples\u2019 hands, he said, \u201cDon\u2019t look at it now.\u201d And so, ya\u2019 know, I didn\u2019t look at it now so\u2026uh\u2026I think it was at the end of service, so I walk outside, and he has a piece of paper balled-up. And I open it, and it\u2019s just a blank sheet of paper. And I\u2019m thinkin\u2019, \u201cOkay. Did he just want me to throw away his trash?\u201d But he must have been watching me because he walked over to me, and he whispered in my ear, and he said, \u201cEverything is not as it appears.\u201d And I never forget he told me that.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> Do you remember who that was?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> No. I don\u2019t remember who it was. I\u2014I don\u2019t know if he was one of the\u2026uh\u2026people who were close to Jim Jones or just a regular member. But\u2026uh\u2026, ya\u2019 know, if I\u2014I should have heeded the words he said and\u2026uh\u2026paid more attention. But I didn\u2019t and I lost, ya\u2019 know, two people that were very dear to me.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> Are you a part of a religious organization now?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> Uh\u2026well now I\u2019ve\u2026uh\u2026I\u2019m\u2026uh\u2026Sunni Muslim. I decided to\u2026uh\u2026uh\u2026uh\u2026look into different religions and\u2026uh\u2026I read the Bible and then I read the Qur\u2019an and\u2026uh\u2026the Qur\u2019an touched me\u2026uh\u2026in a way that I\u2026uh\u2026became a Muslim. Now wh– what\u2019s funny about when I became a Muslim, most Black Americans in America\u2026uh\u2026I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s true now, but a certain period of time, your introduced\u2026uh\u2026to Islam through The Nation of Islam. And I had joined The Nation of Islam back in\u2026uh\u2026it was \u201995. And what struck me with them is that every service I went to they were readin\u2019 from the Bible. They weren\u2019t reading from the Qur\u2019an. They sold you a Qur\u2019an, but I never saw them use the\u2026um\u2026Qur\u2019an. And when they sold me the Qur\u2019an, I read it and I saw the difference between Nation of Islam and\u2014and the Islam that\u2019s\u2026uh\u2026practiced in–over in Arabia and that\u2019s when I switched and became a Sunni Muslim.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> Did you ever ask, \u201cWhy?\u201d<\/p>\n

Charles: Johnson: Oh, no, I didn\u2019t ask why they\u2026uh\u2026(coughs<\/em>) uh\u2026didn\u2019t\u2026uh\u2026read from the Qur\u2019an. I think one of the reasons they read from the Bible is they were always bringin\u2019 in Christians and tryin\u2019 to convert them but usin\u2019 the Bible instead of the Qur\u2019an (slight stammer<\/em>) ya\u2019 know that\u2019s just somethin\u2019 I\u2014just my opinion. I don\u2019t know if that\u2019s true or not but that\u2019s what I kind of gathered from it.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> So, what else would you like to share as far as your memories of Peoples Temple? Were they overall happy memories, e-e-except for the \u201cincident\u201d? Or\u2026?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> Uh\u2026yeah. When\u2026uh\u2026we lived there was an apartment building next to the\u2026uh\u2026church in Los Angeles and it was\u2026uh\u2026uh\u2026ya\u2019 know a\u2014a coop-a coop really, ya\u2019 know we\u2026uh\u2026we\u2014were livin\u2019\u2026uh\u2026uh\u2026we were livin\u2019 there and it was a commune. And what I\u2014what I liked about it at the time was that I was workin\u2019 somewhere makin\u2019 minimum wage\u2026uh\u2026my wife was\u2026uh\u2026uh\u2026getting a county check for we weren\u2019t making a lot of money at all. We were way below the poverty line, but we were able to survive by living there. Ya\u2019 know, all of our needs were met. Uh\u2026the rent\u2026uh\u2026food, clothing e-everything that\u2026uh\u2026that we needed was met and, in turn, ya\u2019 know we did work around the\u2026uh\u2026the church when it was our turn to do it. Whether it was security or–or cooking or\u2026uh\u2026cleaning the buses out, whatever it was. Though and the people that I worked with, th–the other rank and file members who were into that lifestyle really made it\u2026uh\u2026fun. Those are the memories that you have of the people that were there with you. And ya\u2019 know, that was\u2014that was a fun time for\u2026uh\u2026for me and my wife. We\u2026uh\u2026we enjoyed that time immensely.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> Are you still friends with anybody from Peoples Temple?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> That\u2019s th\u2014that\u2019s the thing\u2026uh\u2026when that happened nobody trusted anybody. In fact, that\u2014I think that\u2019s was\u2026uh\u2026when I look back on it one of the things that drove a wedge between my wife and I was that I saw some things that weren\u2019t kosher as far as\u2026uh\u2026Peoples Temple was concerned over the years and\u2026uh\u2026she wasn\u2019t listening. Ya\u2019 know, she wasn\u2019t having it. Like he would do these healings, and, over a period of years, he healed just about everybody in that church from somethin\u2019 that either would have\u2026uh\u2026debilitated them or caused them death. And I remember one time sayin\u2019 to my Mom, I said, \u201cMom you can\u2019t believe in this. Cause\u2019 if your gonna tell me if it wasn\u2019t for Jim Jones all these four hundred people in here would have been dead by now?\u201d I said, \u201cMom that doesn\u2019t make sense.\u201d But ya\u2019 know, she\u2014she\u2026uh\u2026she didn\u2019t want to hear it either. Ya know, and that\u2019s when my wife and my Mom became close because they both believed in the same thing. Cause they had told Jim Jones\u2026uh\u2026Jim Jones had told them that they needed to put some\u2014something some kind of prayer cloth under my pillow to stop some kind of accident I was gonna have, but they couldn\u2019t tell me. \u00a0And so, at the time, me and my wife were\u2026uh\u2026we had just got married and were living with my Mother and my stepdad. And they\u2014they attempted to do it, but I discovered what they were doin\u2019. And they said,\u201d Well look, well we gotta put this under there or else you–you\u2019re gonna have a bad accident or somethin\u2019\u2026\u201d I said, \u201cMom, no.\u201d Ya\u2019 know, well I told \u2018em, \u201cNo. This is\u2014this is not real. That you have to believe, ya\u2019 know, that everybody in this church would have been dead by now if it wasn\u2019t for Jim Jones. You can\u2019t possibly believe that.\u201d But they were believers, they but they believed it wholeheartedly. Ya\u2019 know, it was (clears throat<\/em>) it was\u2026uh\u2026ya\u2019 know, they were really\u2014they were really into it. And I think that was the start of the split that I had with me and my wife.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> When you—when you separated from your wife and she left for Guyana, you said that you did not know that she had gone. Were there\u2014until they were already there. Were there any\u2014did you have regular correspondence her, aside from the one letter?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> No. The one letter is the only–only letter I got. The only (clears throat<\/em>) c-correspondence and it was\u2026uh\u2026like I said when she put that little phrase in there, I knew somethin\u2019 was wrong. And I had told my Mom and my Mom was close to a couple of people at the church, but they\u2026uh\u2026ya\u2019 know th–they\u2014they calmed her down and said nothin\u2019s wrong unbeknownst to us at the time that the people who were back here, his ministers, they still had family members over in Guyana. So, they had to be careful of what they said because that would have put their family members over there in danger. And so, they couldn\u2019t tell us anything was wrong even if they knew somethin\u2019 was wrong because they didn\u2019t want anything to happen to their family members. (clears throat<\/em>) Ya\u2019 know I\u2014I ya\u2019 know I heard about those\u2026uh\u2026(clears throat<\/em>) uh\u2026um\u2026I don\u2019t know what they called \u2018em–I\u2019ll just say \u201cBlack Nights\u201d where they drank the fake poison to say that people come after us this is somethin\u2019 that (clears throat<\/em>) excuse me, this is something that we have to do. Ya\u2019 know, he\u2026uh\u2026I think he\u2026uh\u2026called it \u201crevolutionary suicide\u201d. If I remember, Huey Newton wrote a book called Revolutionary Suicide<\/em>. In fact\u2026um\u2026I was told later on that they had a recording of Huey Newton sayin\u2019 what a good job that Jim Jones was doing and that people should believe in him. Ya\u2019 know, but (clears throat<\/em>) since I wasn\u2019t there, I don\u2019t know what the recording said. I don\u2019t know how many times it played. But\u2026uh\u2026that\u2019s the\u2014that\u2019s the message that I got later on.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> All right. You also\u2026uh\u2026said that your daughter and wife were interred at Evergreen Cemetery in Oakland?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> Right. Uh\u2026yes\u2026uh\u2026uh\u2026I\u2019ve seen pictures of their names there, but I haven\u2019t\u2026uh\u2026uh\u2026visited that\u2026uh\u2026the–the cemetery yet\u2026(slight talking over<\/em>) Klapperich:<\/strong> Is that\u2014is that hard? Johnson:<\/strong> It\u2019s a hard thing to do\u2026<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> Is that too hard for you?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> Yeah, it–it\u2019s kind of a hard thing to do. Ya\u2019 know (clears throat<\/em>) another thing, I couldn\u2019t look at any movies about it. Any documentaries. I couldn\u2019t look at the pictures. Ya\u2019 know, \u2018cause when you look at the pictures, ya\u2019 know, you–you\u2019re looking\u2014I\u2019m looking for my wife and, ya\u2019 know, it just became too hard. And especially afterwards when\u2026uh\u2026I couldn\u2019t talk to my Mom about it. \u2018Cause at that time, I really couldn\u2019t talk to anybody because nobody could know how you could feel. Ya\u2019 know, nobody knew how you felt and the people that I was closest to\u2026uh\u2026um\u2026 my Mom or stepdad\u2026uh\u2026ya\u2019 know, I\u2014I couldn\u2019t have those conversations with \u2018em. So, (clears throat<\/em>) it-it-it was hard. In fact, I remember going to\u2026uh\u2026uh\u2026speak to\u2026uh\u2026a psychologist and\u2026uh\u2026after the first meeting that didn\u2019t work out too good and\u2026uh\u2026I–I left there upset so\u2026uh\u2026I never went back.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> Why-why were you upset after the meeting if you can share?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> Uh\u2026because ya\u2019 know it–it takes awhile for you to pour your heart out. It\u2019s still new. It\u2019s still fresh. You don\u2019t want to believe it, but it\u2019s\u2014i–it\u2019s believable and I remember I was at\u2014at a time when I was pouring my heart out and there was a knock\u2014it was a–a female psychologist–a knock on the door she goes and asks and comes back and says, \u201cWell my lunch date is here. We\u2019ll have to continue this later.\u201d And that was it. And so, I said, \u201cOkay, I\u2019m through with her.\u201d<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> If there was anything you wish would have been made available to you, what would that have been?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> Um\u2026you know at the time, I wou—obviously I wish that\u2026uh\u2026things had turned out different and they weren\u2019t there at all. But, also, I wish that\u2026um\u2026there would have been somebody to talk to who could calm his\u2014calm—calm me down and\u2014and\u2026uh\u2026ya\u2019 know just tell me about the future or try and make things\u2014try to make things better. There was–there was none of that. I mean there was\u2014there was nothing like that. And ya\u2019 know, I ha\u2014I had also felt guilty about another young teenager who\u2026uh\u2026they sent over there. And\u2026uh\u2026it was because we were doin\u2019 guard duty and some kinda way me and this\u2026uh\u2026ya\u2019 know I\u2019m about 23 and he\u2019s about 15-16, this teenager\u2026uh\u2026we got in a fight. And they just sent him right over to Jonestown and I\u2019m pretty sure he didn\u2019t survive. And I felt guilty about that also that, ya\u2019 know, his death was on my hands.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> Wow<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> Ya\u2019 know guilt–guilt can be a\u2014a terrible thing to\u2026uh\u2026to–to experience. Ya\u2019 know \u2018cause there was like I said there was signs that I saw that things weren\u2019t right and I just couldn\u2019t convince my wife to l\u2014l\u2014to leave and let it go. I just couldn\u2019t convince her. Ya\u2019 know, plus I had my Mom on the other side tellin\u2019 her what a wonderful man Jim Jones was. And it was just hard to overcome that. I–It was\u2014it was really difficult. So that, ya\u2019 know, I wish there would have been somebody who would have been able to talk to me. But like I said\u2026uh\u2026the actor from Miami Vice, Philip Michael Thomas, and that was way before Miami Vice, ya\u2019 know he was talkin\u2019 to me—he was there for me, but i–it wasn\u2019t the same and I, ya\u2019 know, I appreciate it, ya\u2019 know, and he probably has no idea how much it meant to me at the time. But it was, ya\u2019 know, that was something that\u2014that\u2026uh\u2026I\u2014I needed more of. Ya\u2019 know \u2018cause one of the things people were lookin\u2019 at you like you were crazy. At that time, if you told \u2018em that you were associated with\u2026uh\u2026Jim Jones, they looked at you in a different way. \u2018Cause they\u2019re thinkin\u2019 how can people do this? How can he get people to follow him to\u2026uh\u2026uh\u2026t\u2014to kill themselves? And, actually, they had guns on \u2018em, ya\u2019 know? It was either\u2013it was either\u2026uh\u2026drink that or, ya\u2019 know, be shot down. A\u2014and ya\u2019 know speaking of that that\u2019s another thing that just irritates me to no end. Now ya\u2019 hear people always use the term \u201cdrinkin\u2019 the Kool-Aid\u201d and it just really bothers me because you had\u2026uh\u2026these mo–mostly Black but all poor people who died that way. And I\u2019m thinkin\u2019, \u201cOkay, what if we started using the term: \u2018I\u2019m not walkin\u2019 into that oven\u2019?\u201d Referring to the Jews who died in\u2026uh\u2026in Nazi, Germany. People would lose their frickin\u2019 mind. So, it\u2019s okay to disparage and–and have a clich\u00e9 about poor Black people, but you can\u2019t do that with other people. And that really bothers me to this day.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> Well, I can understand why it might. Or why it should. So (talking over<\/em>) Johnson:<\/strong> Yeah, go–go ahead. Klapperich:<\/strong> So, do you still carry some of that guilt with you?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> Every minute of every day.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> Do you think that this could happen again?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> I think it could happen again\u2026um\u2026ya\u2019 know to be honest with you, I\u2019m just shocked. When I see some of these\u2026uh\u2026evangelical preachers on TV. The uh\u2026uh\u2026the Kenneth Copeland\u2019s. The\u2026uh\u2026um\u2026Graham Franklin\u2019s. The way they control their flocks. The way they\u2019ve become so political. It just astounds me. I don\u2019t ever think people will get to the point where they will be in a position to take their lives. But I do think that people are bein\u2019 controlled way too much by these a–a\u2014and you know th–these are just, I call \u2018em \u201cjack leg preachers\u201d. Ya\u2019 know money is all they want. They can\u2014they can tell you how to vote. They can tell you how to live. They can tell you somethin\u2019 that\u2019s not true and you will believe it. Ya\u2019 know, truth doesn\u2019t matter in America anymore. This is madness.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> Would you say, in a comparison, that Peoples Temple actually offered more than these other evangelical groups you\u2019ve mentioned?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> Well one of the things that Peoples Temple did\u2026uh\u2026and I know\u2026uh\u2026instances where somebody was losin\u2019 their house\u2026uh\u2026the church would step in and make the back payments and keep \u2018em from losin\u2019 their house. If you had somebody in\u2014in jail\u2026uh\u2026nine times out of ten they could get \u2018em out. They were doin\u2019 things for people \u2018cause, I don\u2019t know if\u2026uh\u2026most people don\u2019t know that\u2026uh\u2026Jim Jones was the Housing Commissioner in the City of San Francisco. And, when you have a church with that many people in it, and you have local elections, you can wield a lot of power. \u00a0You have the power t\u2014to sway an election. And so a lot of politicians played up to him to get\u2026uh\u2026his members to vote. Vote\u2026uh\u2026their way. And ya\u2019 know he did do some things for people, it\u2019s just that, in the end, ya\u2019 know hi–his craziness\u2014I don\u2019t know if it was craziness. I don\u2019t know if it was drugs. I don\u2019t know if it\u2014if it was arrogance. But he just\u2026uh\u2026you know went down the wrong path and took all these people with him. \u00a0But he did do some good things\u2026uh\u2026i–in the beginning. And ya\u2019 know\u2026um\u2026like I said I wasn\u2019t into the\u2026uh\u2026religious part, but I was\u2014I was into the socialism. Ya\u2019 know \u2018cause I saw him do some things I\u2019ll never forget in a service and I had to be sittin\u2019 about twenty, thirty rows back. He threw a Bible and it landed right next to this woman sittin\u2019 on the end and he said that she was\u2014there was a spy and\u2014and this whole bit. I mean i–it was crazy. It was crazy, but they were doin\u2019 some things. I–I remember spending some\u2014a—a week up in, I think it was Ukiah, California when they were clearin\u2019 some land or somethin\u2019 and we were up there choppin\u2019 down\u2026uh\u2026trees. Uh\u2026I know now why they call the \u201cMighty Oak\u201d\u2014the \u201cMighty Oak\u201d because you try to chop that down\u2026uh\u2026it bounces off of it like its rubber. But\u2026uh\u2026you know\u2026uh\u2026we were fro\u2014me and my wife we were involved. W\u2014we believed. I believed in the socialistic part, and she believed in the religious part and when\u2026uh\u2026when we couldn\u2019t agree on something that\u2019s when we started to\u2026uh\u2026to\u2026uh\u2026separate. And you know\u2026um\u2026I–I like it\u2019s like I told you earlier I feel guilty about that every day. Because ya\u2019 know you look back on it and think there are so many different things you could have done. Ya\u2019 know so many different ways I could have handled things and, ya\u2019 know, they would\u2019ve\u2026uh\u2026survived. I even thought if I had been there, I could have saved them. But you know that\u2019s\u2014that\u2019s\u2026uh\u2026not the right thinkin\u2019 because you know\u2026uh\u2026there was no way to fight that. The people who got out were just lucky an–an ya\u2019 know either snuck out or got overlooked. But you know nobody\u2026uh\u2026just grabbed a gun and walked out of there. Not\u2014not to my knowledge, anyway. So, yeah, there\u2019s a I\u2014I see a lot of parallel in what\u2019s goin\u2019 on now. Ya\u2019 know you have\u2026uh\u2026uh\u2026just people believin\u2019 in\u2014in\u2014in stuff that\u2019s not real and I don\u2019t understand it. You know you can have, ya\u2019 know now\u2014now people think that voting is not right. Ya\u2019 know th-that\u2019s there\u2019s somethin\u2019 wrong with the voting based on one lie by one man. How can one man have that much power? Where he can make what\u2026uh\u202647% or 40% of the people in America think there\u2019s somethin\u2019 wrong with the votes when he doesn\u2019t win? Nobody\u2019s questioned it before, except maybe in 2000. When just in one\u2026uh\u2026state Florida. But now you\u2019ve got people even when a recount, a recount says he lost he\u2019ll get up the next day and said, \u201cThe recount proves that I won. They need to decertify it.\u201d This is madness. And I\u2019ve seen this play before with Jim Jones. I\u2019ve seen this before. So, I don\u2019t know how people can fall into this. This doesn\u2019t make sense to me.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> I have a question that you don\u2019t have to answer if you don\u2019t want, and it goes back to feeling guilty every single day of your life for your daughter and your wife. Is there something that you could say now that would help, going forward, to other people that might\u2014that can\u2019t ever alleviate the guilt but certainly might potentially help others from going down the path? Som\u2014some word of advice?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> Uh\u2026yes, communication. Ya\u2019 know I was young. My wife was young. We didn\u2019t communicate that much with each other. We let other people come in and tell us things that maybe weren\u2019t right and things we shouldn\u2019t have listened to, but you gotta communicate with the person closest to you. You have to y\u2014you–you have to discuss things. You have both of you have to express your feelings and you gotta have some common ground. And I didn\u2019t have t-the communication skills at 23 that I have now at 66 or tha-that I–I had at 33 or 43 or 53. Ya\u2019 know communication is the main thing and not having anybody tell you somethin\u2019 that you know is not right. Because so many times you\u2019ll suffer. Ya\u2019 know and I–I\u2019ll give you a quick example: and this is\u2014when I was in the fifth grade, we moved from Compton to LA and we had a math test. And I knew the answers to the math test. But the students there were tellin\u2019 me that i\u2014its\u2026uh\u2026that\u2019s not the right way it\u2019s done a different way. And I listened to them, and I failed right along with them even though I knew it was different. And I look back on that and thinkin\u2019, \u201cMath doesn\u2019t change. The truth doesn\u2019t change.\u201d But people can convince you that things change when you\u2019re \u201cweak minded\u201d and you\u2019re not educated. So, I would tell people first of all, communication but get educated. Read. You don\u2019t spend all day watchin\u2019 TV, read. In my lifetime I\u2019ve read over 400 books. You know I try to read an\u2014and–and try to be as knowledgeable as I can. But I do see dark days ahead for America because I\u2019m–I\u2019m currently readin\u2019 a book about\u2026uh\u2026uh\u2026John Brown? Who was\u2026uh\u2026ya\u2019 know died freein\u2019 the slaves, and the same things that were going on before the Civil War I see happening today. And people can\u2019t turn to the church. You look at these evangelicals and it gets crazy. They\u2019ll say well, for instance, \u201cGod put Trump in charge.\u201d Okay. If God put Trump in charge, then He put Biden in charge. And Obama in charge. And Bush in charge. But they don\u2019t wanna hear that. People don\u2019t wanna hear the truth. And, if I had listened more about the truth, and been able to express that to my wife more, maybe I could have saved her. But I didn\u2019t.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> Are there any, for lack of any better word, signs that you would have people specifically look to, or look at, when participating within an organization that you would consider warning signs?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> Uh\u2026yeah\u2026ther\u2026uh\u2026one (unintelligible<\/em>). Truth. \u2018Cause, ya\u2019 know it\u2026um\u2026Okay you\u2019ll have stories in the Bible where Jesus told a man to, ya\u2019 know, a man asked him to follow him. And he said, \u201cWhat do I need to follow you?\u201d And Jesus said, \u201cSell all you have.\u201d But he didn\u2019t stop there. He said, \u201cSell all you have. Give it to the poor, and then follow me.\u201d He didn\u2019t say, \u201cSell all you have. Give it to the rich.\u201d Give it to the poor. And still we have these\u2014these mega pastors flyin\u2019 around in\u2026uh\u2026in private jets. I\u2014I\u2019ll never forget\u2026uh\u2026this was afterwards, girlfriend of mine, she was goin\u2019 to\u2026uh\u2026um\u2026a church in\u2026uh\u2026in Los Angeles and I\u2014I\u2019ll just say it was\u2026uh\u2026Fred Prices\u2019 church and the congregation was buyin\u2019 him a Rolls Royce. And he said, \u201cWell, Jesus rode on a camel and, or a donkey, and that was the Rolls Royce of the time.\u201d I\u2019m thinkin\u2019, ya\u2019 know (stammers<\/em>)\u2026uh\u2026girlfriend, ex, I said, \u201cNo it\u2019s not.\u201d I said, \u201cThere\u2019s a lot of things between a Rolls Royce and walkin\u2019. There\u2019s a Chevy (chuckles<\/em>). There\u2019s a bicycle. There\u2019s a motorcycle. But there ain\u2019t too many things between a donkey and walkin\u2019.\u201d I mean either you walk or you gotta a donkey there\u2019s nothin\u2019 in between that–that I know of. But people went along with that. And I\u2019m thinkin\u2019, \u201cPeople have to be smarter than that. People gotta think for themselves. And stop lettin\u2019 other people tell them somethin\u2019 that is outrageous.\u201d And I\u2019ll never forget the last time I\u2014I stepped in Fred Prices\u2019 church, is\u2014ya\u2019 know \u2018cause he was always arrogant to me, he said that\u2026uh\u2026, \u201cthe People who died in Jonestown got what they deserved.\u201d And my girlfriend at the time couldn\u2019t understand why I didn\u2019t go back. She said, \u201cI should forgive him for that.\u201d And that\u2019s unforgivable. How are you gonna tell me my 2-year-old daughter got what she deserved? So, ya\u2019 know, people get hooked-up in this religion game. And they–they let people tell them stuff that\u2019s not in the Bible. One of the reasons I\u2014I\u2014I came to Islam \u2018cause there is no main Islam leader or group tellin\u2019 you things. They stress read the Qur\u2019an. Follow the Qur\u2019an. And that\u2019s what I try to do daily. And I really wish that I had found\u2026uh\u2026 Sunni Islam when I was 12 years old an–and been steeped in it then \u2018cause then I would have lived a better life. But you know I am where I am now. But people need to read and–and not let somebody lie to them, especially when they know they\u2019re lyin\u2019. Ya\u2019 know I just ca\u2014I just can\u2019t understand, ya\u2019 know wh-\u2026uh\u2026like I said I have three sons and when I raised my sons I used to tell \u2018em, you know, 60% of the people you run across are gonna be stupid. And now my sons are out in the world, and they said, \u201cDad, your estimate wasn\u2019t right (muffled<\/em>). It\u2019s way higher than 60%\u201d (laughs<\/em>) But ya\u2019 know that\u2019s somethin\u2019 that\u2026uh\u2026you know we–we gotta live with.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> Is there anything else you\u2019d like to share?<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> Um\u2026No I\u2014I\u2014I know this was a long time ago and I don\u2019t wanna see anybody else go through this and\u2014and live with this. Ya\u2019 know \u2018cause guilt, survivors\u2019 guilt, can be a terrible thing to live with and I\u2014I\u2014I wish people would–would hold their loved ones closer to \u2018em and\u2014and enjoy them while they\u2019re here \u2018cause you never know when they\u2019re gonna be snatched away. Y-ya\u2019 never know it. And that I just want people to educate themselves\u2026uh\u2026seek the truth and–and keep your loved ones close.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> Thank you.<\/p>\n

Johnson:<\/strong> Uh\u2026your welcome.<\/p>\n

Klapperich:<\/strong> Thank you for this interview and we are going off-record at 11:04 am. Thank you, very much.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Katherine Klapperich: All right, uh, it is September 28th at 10:09 am in the year 2021, and my name is Katherine Klapperich, and I am a master\u2019s student at Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley, California and I have the honor today of speaking with Mr. Charles Johnson who is a survivor of Peoples Temple and […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":8,"featured_media":0,"parent":112132,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-112134","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/112134","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/8"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=112134"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/112134\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":112135,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/112134\/revisions\/112135"}],"up":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/112132"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=112134"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}