{"id":114062,"date":"2022-04-07T16:05:19","date_gmt":"2022-04-07T23:05:19","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=114062"},"modified":"2025-12-12T11:39:02","modified_gmt":"2025-12-12T19:39:02","slug":"transcript-of-carrie-tucker-and-vee-hollins-conversation","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=114062","title":{"rendered":"Transcript of Carrie Tucker and Vee Hollins conversation"},"content":{"rendered":"

[Editor\u2019s<\/strong> Notes<\/strong>: Who is speaking when in the conversation is unknown, in part because of the inconsistency of spacing between exchanges. The transcript shows nothing but the conversation, with no names attached to individual lines.<\/em><\/p>\n

[A second conversation involving Carrie Tucker from July 11, 1978 \u2013 but also without identification of speakers \u2013 appears here<\/a>.]<\/em><\/p>\n

[This tape appears two places in this folder, as pages R-1-D-9 \u2013 D-9s and as pages R-1-D-12 \u2013 D-12t. In addition, pages 1 through 10 are duplicated at R-1-D-14 \u2013 14i.]<\/em><\/p>\n

R-1-D-9<\/p>\n

[Handwritten notes at top of page: “Full transcript of tape from Carrie Tucker and Vee Hollins (2 copies)”; “Save Conspiracy”; “Jim said, read very careful & tried to catch anything. [Illegible signature] VIP”]<\/em><\/p>\n

pg 1<\/p>\n

Willie Bobo and on the week before last we wrote letters to the district attorney, right?<\/p>\n

Yea, we did write the district attorney.<\/p>\n

And it was 99\u00a2 to keep vibrations up?<\/p>\n

And uh\u2026 Who is Earlene Mosley?<\/p>\n

Earlene Mosley, she doesn’t come any more. She stopped coming a long long time ago.<\/p>\n

Well she is drawing up with them.<\/p>\n

Oh, Earlene Mosley is\u2026<\/p>\n

Yea, and Mary Little\u2026<\/p>\n

Mary Little?<\/p>\n

Mary Lindle, do you know Mary Linden?<\/p>\n

No. Maybe she used to be a member; maybe she stopped coming a long time ago. It doesn’t ring a bell right now.<\/p>\n

Well anyway OK in San Francisco \u2013 I’m trying to find my list. Sunday in San Francisco \u2013 we had everybody go up in the Gold Room\u2026<\/p>\n

Uh huh<\/p>\n

And they’re trying to get them out and uh, you went \u2013 I don’t have good sense \u2013 I don’t know why I use paper like this\u2026<\/p>\n

It will come to you Carrie<\/p>\n

No, I got it all written down, but it’s got other stuff on here with it and I can’t put it together\u2026 Where is that list at\u2026 I don’t know how this got out\u2026 Ok what happened \u2013 OK Sunday \u2013 maybe I figure I can do it. Now Sunday \u2013 the weekend everybody was supposed to go to San Francisco?<\/p>\n

Uh huh\u2026<\/p>\n

What they said they were going to close the church and then they decided not to?<\/p>\n

Yea<\/p>\n

And why I can’t read this \u2013 and then they decided not to; and were wondering if they were going to have potluck right?<\/p>\n

Yea.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

R-1-D-9a<\/p>\n

pg 2<\/p>\n

And \u2013 they would have been\u2026 Something\u2026 Anyway Esther Johnson (?) I don’t know how she got connected in here \u2013 Clara got a letter from Esther Johnson.<\/p>\n

Esther Johnson? Who got a letter from her?<\/p>\n

\u2026 Now just let me\u2026 Esther Johnson got a letter from Clare. I don’t know if she told Mabel or not.<\/p>\n

Oh I see.<\/p>\n

This is what Fannie told me.<\/p>\n

Uh huh<\/p>\n

And Clara told her to come on over. And said that they were going to close the church up down here pretty soon.<\/p>\n

Uh-uh uh (as in no)<\/p>\n

And Hue [Fortson] is going to come back, and they are showing pictures Sunday down there \u2013 at the church Sunday. This showed them last Sunday in San Francisco.<\/p>\n

Uh huh<\/p>\n

And one of the members took a little green book that they were giving us down there, and gave it to Fannie \u2013 A Feeling of Freedom \u2013 gave the book to Fannie.<\/p>\n

God dammit \u2013 I’m trying to find a name\u2026<\/p>\n

[The following two exchanges are bracketed starred] Don Fields that’s in Guyana with his wife and children, his mother goes to meetings all the time, and she is \u2013 she hasn’t heard from her son and she something\u2026 The district attorney called every day.<\/p>\n

Called who<\/p>\n

Called Fannie and Mabel, and they are going to come to that church down there on \u2013 who is Maxine Benton?<\/p>\n

Maxine Benton? There is a Maxine Thomas, Maxine Johnson\u2026 I don’t know a Maxine Benton.<\/p>\n

What about it? (still Vee)<\/p>\n

Who is Mary Ruben? I’m just giving you some names that she’s been talking to\u2026<\/p>\n

Oh, Mary Ruben? She doesn’t attend anymore, she stopped coming a long time ago.<\/p>\n

Well, she’s joined up with them \u2013 these are names that I’m giving you that has come in with them.<\/p>\n

Uh huh<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

R-1-D-9b<\/p>\n

pg 3<\/p>\n

Tim got a lot of stuff; he is in with somebody over in Guyana that’s talking to him and giving him stuff. Girl, he knows what they’re doing on weeknights over there and everything.<\/p>\n

Hum [Hmm].<\/p>\n

What’s this about the District Attorney, you said they would be coming down what day? Coming to the Temple what day \u2013 in LA or in San Francisco?<\/p>\n

[Paragraph bracketed and starred] Down here to San Francisco \u2013 I mean LA. They are going to be coming here to this Temple because they said that [Jim] McElvane wasn’t an ordained minister, and they were going to check and said that Jim wasn’t no minister either. They called the place you know where if they are a minister they\u2019ve been ordained \u2013 how they check it out? And they said there was no minister and they are going to come in there \u2013 in the church \u2013<\/p>\n

That\u2019ll be Sunday?<\/p>\n

I don’t know they said \u2013 one of these Sundays. And the one in San Francisco too. And they are getting together in San Francisco with the lawyers and everybody \u2013 they’re going to court, and they spoke to Ted Kennedy.<\/p>\n

Ted Kennedy<\/p>\n

Yes, am I going too fast?<\/p>\n

No<\/p>\n

Ted Kennedy<\/p>\n

The president’s brother?<\/p>\n

Yes and she spoke to Rosalind [Rosalynn] Carter.<\/p>\n

Who spoke to her?<\/p>\n

Fannie.<\/p>\n

Spoke to her, talked to her, or wrote to her?<\/p>\n

She wrote to her and sent all the literature.<\/p>\n

Oh, I see.<\/p>\n

And then she kept calling and had her to call back. She did speak to her on the phone. And she was telling her about when she was in San Francisco just before Jim left and a whole lot of stuff and then she said that she would talk to the President.<\/p>\n

Let’s see now, Fannie Mobley talked to Rosaland Carter on the phone. I see. OK.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

R-1-D-9c<\/p>\n

pg 4<\/p>\n

And she sent the literature \u2013 anyway, Tim [Stoen] was going to have this stuff put in the Enquirer<\/u>, you know that paper don’t you?<\/p>\n

He was? What do you mean by “he was”?<\/p>\n

Well he got so much of this stuff and then when he called the Enquirer<\/u>, they didn’t have enough space in there for this stuff, so he has to waite [wait] to get his space.<\/p>\n

I see. Do you really believe that Fanny called Rosaland Carter?<\/p>\n

I believe she called her, but I don’t believe she spoke to her.<\/p>\n

OK<\/p>\n

I believe that she did because she is that kind of person. I don’t believe that she spoke to her on the phone because I think that President or Rosalind would bother to talk or get involved. I believe all this stuff that she said; I believe they had read it, but I doubt it very much that she has spoken to her on the phone. I doubt it very much that she spoke to Ted Kennedy. Maybe she spoke to his secretary now \u2013 I believe that. I believe she spoke to President Carter’s secretary, but I doubt it very much that she has spoken to either one of them.<\/p>\n

Boy I’ll tell you\u2026<\/p>\n

\u2026 \u2018cause how can she do something that nobody else can do? They are going to get together in San Francisco, and oh \u2013 when she was waite a minute \u2013 when she was speaking to President Carter’s secretary and she spoke to Ted Kennedy’s secretary, and she acted as if she didn’t want to talk to her. And so Fannie up and Fannie said that her mind told her to call her back and talk to her because she didn’t say what she wanted to say. So she called her back and told her that Jim Jones was going to overthrow the government you know that he was a crook, and that she wanted to talk. She said Oh is he in a cult something like SunMoon [Sun Myung Moon, head of the Unification Church]?<\/p>\n

Who said this?<\/p>\n

This secretary, something\u2026 You know SunMoon don’t you?<\/p>\n

Yea that name\u2019s familiar, but who \u2013 Fannie is talking to who now?<\/p>\n

President Carter’s secretary.<\/p>\n

Oh, President Carter’s secretary. Were you able to get her name?<\/p>\n

Waite a minute.<\/p>\n

OK<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

R-1-D-9d<\/p>\n

pg 5<\/p>\n

I don’t know\u2026 Dootie Fields?<\/p>\n

Dootie Fields?<\/p>\n

No, that isn’t it. I’m going to ask her again. I’ll get it done before the day is gone.<\/p>\n

OK<\/p>\n

I don’t know where it is.<\/p>\n

Alright.<\/p>\n

Anyway she said Oh is he like that cult, like that cult SunMoon? And then she wanted to talk and she said that they went on for a long time. And she said that she would \u2013 something listening \u2013 she would give it to the President. Alright, if she done give it to the President and spoke to these people why do you keep calling? People are going to think you’re nuts.<\/p>\n

[Next to exchanges bracketed] And Kennedy said they were going to look into it too. And this district attorney \u2013<\/p>\n

Did you get his name?<\/p>\n

No, there were three of them. They were over in a meeting one time.<\/p>\n

Did you get any of their names?<\/p>\n

No<\/p>\n

You see I can’t go into this thing and question them \u2018cause they’re going to something to say which are you? An FBI or something?<\/p>\n

Yea.<\/p>\n

So I have to figure my little tricks around and say didn’t you say DA and I’ll make up a name and then she\u2019ll tell me the name. You see, I can’t go in like that because she’ll start asking me questions.<\/p>\n

I see. If you can, try to find out who will be coming to the meeting on Sunday in LA and San Francisco.<\/p>\n

But you won\u2019t to know them she said. They won’t know they’ll be coming in.<\/p>\n

I see. Oh boy, I’m telling you\u2026 I was wondering if you find out let us know who is taking information from our meetings on Sundays back to them.<\/p>\n

That’s why I was giving you these names. I don’t know.<\/p>\n

Oh one of those names there.<\/p>\n

Waite a minute let me call off some names (cont next page)<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

R-1-D-9e<\/p>\n

pg 6<\/p>\n

Mary Ruben.<\/p>\n

Mary Ruben \u2013 she doesn’t attend.<\/p>\n

Maxine Benton. Do you know a Maxine Benton?<\/p>\n

Maxine Benton. We don’t have a Maxine Benton that attends LA. What did she do or say?<\/p>\n

No, these are people that she’s been talking to.<\/p>\n

Oh these are just names that came up.<\/p>\n

How about Lucille Taylor?<\/p>\n

Lucille Taylor \u2013 I don’t know her. Maybe a long time ago she used to come.<\/p>\n

Know Gladys Akins?<\/p>\n

Gladys Akins. Know her she stopped coming a long time ago<\/p>\n

Shirley Baisey [Baisy]?<\/p>\n

Shirley Baisey. She’s over. She’s in the FL [Freedom Land].<\/p>\n

What about Naoma Williams? Her mom? (still Vee)<\/p>\n

Well Naoma Williams, who is she?<\/p>\n

That’s Shirley Baisey’s mom.<\/p>\n

Well she knows Fannie.<\/p>\n

She what?<\/p>\n

She talks to Fannie.<\/p>\n

See she doesn’t attend so\u2026<\/p>\n

Lillie Bobo, who is that?<\/p>\n

Yea she attends.<\/p>\n

OK waite a minute here. I’m going to read you some names. I don’t know who they are \u2013 I’m just giving you some names.<\/p>\n

OK<\/p>\n

OK they said that Kan [Kay] Nelson’s daughter was going to be going over and speak at this church and at the other one?<\/p>\n

Oh boy \u2013 probably so\u2026<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

R-1-D-9f<\/p>\n

pg 7<\/p>\n

OK what color dress did you wear last Sunday? Was it a brown and some color dress?<\/p>\n

Who?<\/p>\n

You<\/p>\n

Yea<\/p>\n

Did Florida wear something white and something lighter.<\/p>\n

No, she didn’t wear anything white.<\/p>\n

Did she wear some kind of white skirt with a waist?<\/p>\n

She might have\u2026 now, one of them Sundays.<\/p>\n

Did you send 20 bottles of baby oil to the PL [Promised Land]?<\/p>\n

Oh yea \u2013 project<\/p>\n

Did the drivers that work on the project been something them 2 months?<\/p>\n

Oh yea. So you see someone is going back and saying things and we\u2019re going to find out who. Who these people are who this person is.<\/p>\n

Is Hue coming back?<\/p>\n

Huh?<\/p>\n

Is Hue coming back?<\/p>\n

I don’t know anything about that. Have they said anything about \u2013 let’s see \u2013 you know last time you mentioned Emily Blemon. Do you know about her?<\/p>\n

Who?<\/p>\n

Emily Blemon.<\/p>\n

No, I haven’t heard any more about her since.<\/p>\n

I see.<\/p>\n

[Paragraph starred] But I know Mabel talks to Carlene Coleman, but Mabel never tells you what somebody said. And waite a minute now \u2013 They had some tapes there on Jim?<\/p>\n

Yea<\/p>\n

They sent some tapes and they played the tapes? And Fannie wrote down all this stuff that the child told her was on the tapes.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

R-1-D-9g<\/p>\n

pg 8<\/p>\n

Hum.\u00a0 I wonder who told her\u2026<\/p>\n

I don’t know.<\/p>\n

Let’s see.<\/p>\n

And they said that one time they hold people back now from going over.<\/p>\n

No<\/p>\n

And now they’re sending more.<\/p>\n

No. Not to my knowledge.<\/p>\n

Well they had a lot of them in the Gold Room Sunday in San Francisco. She’s talking to somebody in San Francisco and LA.<\/p>\n

And LA that attends meetings.<\/p>\n

See I don’t know them Vee \u2013 the only people I ever know there were Clara. You know, so I couldn’t tell you\u2026<\/p>\n

Yea I see.<\/p>\n

The church was half-full last Sunday. And it’s going to be full this Sunday the girl said.<\/p>\n

Oh it will be?<\/p>\n

Yea because they said they were going to show those pictures down here.<\/p>\n

Of the girl, but she never said who the girl was.<\/p>\n

See, I took Fannie a pie.<\/p>\n

Oh you went and brought her that pie.<\/p>\n

Yea. I bought her a pie. I bought her some handkerchiefs with lace on them and when I gave it I kissed her.<\/p>\n

Did she start crying?<\/p>\n

Huh?<\/p>\n

Did she cry?<\/p>\n

Oh she told me that I was the best thing that ever happened to her\u2026 I’ll butter her up to get her to talk a little more. And you’re sure you don’t know an Earlene Mosley?<\/p>\n

Yes I know Earlene Mosley. She stopped coming way before Jim left. She used to be an usher by the way.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

R-1-D-9h<\/p>\n

pg 9<\/p>\n

Marylou? It could be Lou Mary, I don’t know\u2026<\/p>\n

Mary lou? No<\/p>\n

Marylou?<\/p>\n

No, like I say, it could have been who used to attend a long time ago.<\/p>\n

Well, this guy he’s going to come down to the church, and they said that they have enough stuff on Jim to put him under, \u2018cause somebody was telling them stuff from over in Guyana \u2013 they know what they are doing every night over there.<\/p>\n

Isn’t that something.<\/p>\n

You don’t know what Sunday that’s going to be do you?<\/p>\n

I’ll find out what Sunday that’s going to be.<\/p>\n

OK OK what time of day or night just give me a ring.<\/p>\n

I’m going to try to find out.<\/p>\n

OK.<\/p>\n

I try my best when I talk to Fannie to keep my cool, you know. Sometimes I ask her you know, what do you think will come out of this? What do you think you will get out of it, you know. I say, do you feel better now? You know, since you started up all of this. And I think that sometimes she wonders who in the hell\u2026 But I try not to do that.<\/p>\n

Yea. I see what you’re saying.<\/p>\n

Don’t give up cause you don’t want to get yourself hurt. Are they still haveing their meetings?<\/p>\n

Yea, they had one last week. And they had 3 attorneys in there.<\/p>\n

Is that the one on Sunset?<\/p>\n

No this one’s on\u2026<\/p>\n

Jefferson?<\/p>\n

No it was on Fairfax.<\/p>\n

Fairfax.<\/p>\n

[Following exchange starred and bracketed] And had 3 lawyers in there; they had 3 district attorneys and they had police officers that arrest people.<\/p>\n

Waite a minute, I didn’t hear that. 2 police officers?<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

R-1-D-9i<\/p>\n

pg 10<\/p>\n

Uh huh, that had arrested people from Peoples Temple.<\/p>\n

That had arrested people in Peoples Temple. And when was that meeting?<\/p>\n

Last week.<\/p>\n

And that was on Fairfax.<\/p>\n

Uh huh.<\/p>\n

Did she tell you anything that was said?<\/p>\n

No, but the people said she told me this that they had to take their time because they had to make sure \u2013 you know what they were doing \u2013 they can’t go in and do something on what’s said, but there are more people that are talking now, and they had people they were talking to from over in Guyana. They even have Jim’s phone number.<\/p>\n

They even have who\u2019s [whose] phone number?<\/p>\n

They have the phone number from over in Guyana. And they called Mabel and Fannie every day \u2013<\/p>\n

That’s the District Attorney?<\/p>\n

Yea.<\/p>\n

This is what Mabel, I mean Fannie Mosley is telling you.<\/p>\n

Yea, I can’t find this sheet of paper. Anyway, let me see \u2013 Kay, I think Kay or something to that effect. Kay Nelson has got a husband\u2013 who is Eloise \u2013 waite a minute, I’m getting these little pieces together now \u2013 who is Eloise Hall?<\/p>\n

Eloise Hall? Oh yea, she’s in the FL.<\/p>\n

Well she got a letter \u2013 somebody got a letter from her from over there and said that it didn’t make any sense at all, and Kay’s husband got a letter from her. He said that Kay Nelson said that she had been real sick over there but that Jim was trying to get her back together. She would be coming home soon.<\/p>\n

This is from information that someone from over there is telling Tim Stoen here?<\/p>\n

Uh huh<\/p>\n

I just talked to Kay not too long ago on the radio. She’s doing fine.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

R-1-D-9j<\/p>\n

pg 11<\/p>\n

Oh and they were telling \u2013 she said that the people were standing up at the meeting \u2013 telling all the things that Jim had said, you know, that he was going to do. He was going to tear up Los Angeles\/ and that people should sell everything they got and move out because he was going to tear it up.<\/p>\n

\u2026 At the meeting that Tim Stoen had had\u2026<\/p>\n

\u2026 That went on in the meeting\u2026<\/p>\n

[The two following exchanges bracketed and starred] Oh, the people that Tim Stoen \u2013 the meeting that he had, people were standing up saying this.<\/p>\n

They were giving testimonies, and they said the reason why the people got out of here was because they were scared of Jim because they really believed that Jim was God. Jim told him that he was going to tear up Los Angeles, and there was an earthquake coming, and if it didn’t sell their home and turn over the money, it wouldn’t do them any good. And if they asked questions, it will bring sickness to them \u2013 that is why they never asked Jim questions.<\/p>\n

Man that is sickening\u2026<\/p>\n

Because\u2026 And then they took the Bible as said that Jim cussed on the Bible and made them just dance on \u2018em and said to Fuck God. That he was the only God and Savior they ever know, and she said the District Attorney said how come he can’t save somebody? What kind [of] man is this that can tear up everything and can’t fix anything?<\/p>\n

That’s what the District Attorney said?<\/p>\n

Uh huh.\u00a0 He said how come he can tear things up and he can’t fix it. He said why don’t he do something for the people’s mind? And one woman said that he was sick (Or fake?). Said that he never healed anyone, and said that he and Marceline were getting a divorce because he is living with Steve\u2019s daughter [Steven Katsaris\u2019 daughter Maria] over there and the little boy\u2026 Said John John or whatever his name and Marie. And they said that little John is calling Jim daddy and Marie mama. There was some man who had a hotel, and his daughter was away somewhere, and this man \u2013 kinda old guy \u2013 gave all this stuff to Jim. His daughter came back and took all this stuff back. They said that Jim had killed a lot of people.<\/p>\n

When you don’t give names, you don’t know, right?<\/p>\n

\u2026 She says it’s a man or it’s a woman\u2026<\/p>\n

How long ago. I don’t know nothing\u2026<\/p>\n

[Paragraph bracketed and starred] This was last week they were telling this to the District Attorney. They were there, she said, for two hours.\u00a0 And they were telling all this stuff that Jim had programmed into their minds \u2013 had scared them into doing.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

R-1-D-9k<\/p>\n

pg 12<\/p>\n

(still Carrie after long pause) And then the District Attorney wanted to know why he heard the rumor where if he was God. If he was God why didn’t he stay here \u2018cause there were so many hungry people in Los Angeles.\u2026 And build this place up\u2026 Why did he have to go over there?<\/p>\n

That’s what Fannie Mobley\u2019s telling you the District Attorney is telling them.<\/p>\n

Uh huh. He wanted to know that. And they said that one woman \u2013 the woman that, the mother of Don Fields, said that she was crying \u2013 that she had lost so much weight and said that she’s afraid she wasn’t going to hear from her son. Her son is a Pharmacist. Pause\u2026 And he said he wanted to know why he was just doing that to blacks. And the District Attorney sent what he must have wanted to do is to take blacks or whatever and clean up \u2013 you know, and then bring them back after everything is all cleaned up.<\/p>\n

Oh goodness. The District Attorney said that?<\/p>\n

Uh huh. And he said that this guy it is worse than SunMoon. And he said that SunMoon [several words struck out] running out of\u2026 He was here in Los Angeles too. He said that SunMoon, he is over in Europe now \u2013 that they are trying to get him out of there.<\/p>\n

Boy. Is there any way at all that you can find out who was taking this \u2013 what’s going on in our services in LA and San Francisco \u2013 to these distractors.<\/p>\n

I’ve been trying to find out. I hear her or him or she said or he said.<\/p>\n

Never who\u2026<\/p>\n

You don’t\u2026 And then sometime you’ll come up and I’ll say Fannie, remember you told me that Gloria said so-and-so and then she will come up with a name. No, I told you so and so\u2026<\/p>\n

I see what you are saying.<\/p>\n

She was telling me about the Temple in LA and I said you told me that Jessie said about so-and-so and she said no, I said Lillie Bobo. That’s how I had to trick her with those names.<\/p>\n

So you think maybe she’s been talking to Lillie Bobo?<\/p>\n

Well that’s the name I gave you. Is Lillie Bobo in the church?<\/p>\n

That’s the name that she’s given you some time or another\u2026 I see.<\/p>\n

Well this stuff she was telling me, I said Jessie, you know, and she said no, Lillie Bobo.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

R-1-D-9l<\/p>\n

pg 13<\/p>\n

To tell you the truth, you have to watch every single one of them, \u2018cause, I mean you just don’t know at all, and they had this book there where Jim was Lenin, you know?<\/p>\n

Lenin?<\/p>\n

Yea they had this book where and it was telling about he was in Lenin he went down 47 times.<\/p>\n

He what?<\/p>\n

[Next two exchanges bracketed and starred] Jim has been back to this Earth 47 times. That’s what they told him in these testimonies, and when he came back the time before this time he was Lenin. So the District Attorney wanted to know what was he all the other times. (Laughter)<\/p>\n

Oh, Lenin\u2026<\/p>\n

He wanted to know who was his name all the other times, and they said well do you think he knows his name from the other times. He was with Russia the time before this time. And he said well oh hell what has he been doing all those lives the 47 times it’s such a mess.<\/p>\n

Did you get a chance to see this book on Lenin?<\/p>\n

No, I didn’t. It was there. Fannie said she got it and she’s going to let me read it.<\/p>\n

Book on Lenin. I see.<\/p>\n

Bessie had one \u2013 that’s that Bessie that left.<\/p>\n

It’s a book you can buy at any store, then.<\/p>\n

It is?<\/p>\n

I’m asking.<\/p>\n

No, they got it from the convention center \u2013 all that stuff that they say good Jim had builded \u2013 that’s why they told him to go and see it.<\/p>\n

Oh\u2026<\/p>\n

\u2018cause that what he had built while he was in the other life. He was with Russia then. And so the District Attorney said look God is with everybody. God isn’t just over in Russia. And so she said [to] this guy we\u2019ve got to do something about it because he’s programming people’s minds. And he said \u2013 did say that whatever is in your mind that you fear \u2013 that you have fear of, he said it would happen<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

R-1-D-9m<\/p>\n

pg 14<\/p>\n

Carrie cont: And he was telling the people, you know, about that sickness? That they must never say I am sick, because they identify themselves \u2013 don’t identify, your mind controls your body \u2013 he was talking to them saying \u2013 the District Attorney said I’m so sorry for those people that was there crying saying you must never think of sickness and don’t believe there\u2019s no God \u2013 around here he said that God is using people, and he said that when you mis-use God’s power, God will strip you of it. And he was just really trying to \u2018cause she likes him really very much.<\/p>\n

Who was saying this now?<\/p>\n

[Starred line] This District Attorney because he felt so sorry for them.<\/p>\n

No name?<\/p>\n

Uhuh-no<\/p>\n

Well have you been able to attend any of their meetings yet?<\/p>\n

Well, I was invited, but Vee, I think that when I get in there, I’ll blow my top. I don’t think that’s the place for me because I was never under Jim’s teachings, and for me to go there, what \u2013 you know I can’t testify. What would I be going for? I have nothing to say.<\/p>\n

Maybe, I was thinking that maybe if you were there to hear first hand, you know, might be able to get some names.<\/p>\n

I could easily go into one, but I don’t know what to say. You know what I mean?<\/p>\n

I see what you are saying. I see now.<\/p>\n

I mean everybody’s getting up and giving testimonies \u2013 and I’ll be sitting there looking like a yo-yo. I just came in there and joined the church when Jim left.<\/p>\n

I see what you\u2019re saying.<\/p>\n

I have nothing to say. I don’t know anything. The only thing I know is what people tell me. I don’t know that and I don’t believe them.<\/p>\n

I see.<\/p>\n

I was thinking, how can I get in \u2013 Oh, I know how I could get in there I could get in there and say I am concerned because I want to help these people out. That’s why I’m here. I don’t know anything about it \u2013 I just came in and I joined. I could say that. And then get some names.<\/p>\n

You could stay close to Fannie. She probably could get you in.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

R-1-D-9n<\/p>\n

pg 15<\/p>\n

But you see, I could get in. She’s invited me. But you see, I think it would be a hard thing for me to sit through and take.<\/p>\n

I see.<\/p>\n

\u2018Cause you see, some of these people \u2013 like Fannie talked to me \u2013 she lied lied lied \u2013 I don’t know what she think I got a bird brain\u2026 She’ll tell you one thing and then she turn around and then she something \u2013 she did something and then she didn’t do it.<\/p>\n

It would be helpful, if you could\u2026 get in there.<\/p>\n

Out in the Valley there are some people \u2013 I don’t know their names \u2013 they must be Oxnard?<\/p>\n

Oxnard? You must mean Bakersfield.<\/p>\n

(First side of tape ended, so there’s a pause in conversation)<\/p>\n

(Carrie)<\/p>\n

Just in case they needed it for the relatives when they came home.<\/p>\n

I see \u2013 no names there either?<\/p>\n

No. I think it is that name Barbara Bulleck \u2013 that used to stay with Barbara Bulleck\u2026<\/p>\n

You mean Hill?<\/p>\n

Yea, and Barbara Bulleck is going to be there Sunday.<\/p>\n

She will be.<\/p>\n

Uh huh. Yea, she’s going to be there Sunday.<\/p>\n

Oh, she will be,<\/p>\n

Did they say anything about Bobby Bullocks or why she hasn’t been coming?<\/p>\n

No, she comes to get information. And she talks to another lady, and the lady gives it to Fannie.<\/p>\n

I see.<\/p>\n

And that building down there is going to be sold. Is that true?<\/p>\n

What building?<\/p>\n

Where you\u2019re in \u2013 around the first of the year.<\/p>\n

I don’t know nothing about that. This building that I’m in it is going to be sold around the first of the year?<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

R-1-D-9o<\/p>\n

pg 16<\/p>\n

Yea, going to be sold. McElvane said that they were going to sell it but they wasn’t in no hurry \u2013 maybe by the first of the year.<\/p>\n

You’re very helpful.<\/p>\n

Vee, why do these people go to church? Why do they come there?<\/p>\n

Why do they come to service?<\/p>\n

Yea.<\/p>\n

Why not?<\/p>\n

I mean if they are going to come, why can to keep their mouth shut?<\/p>\n

Now you know that. That’s been going on ever since time began. They’re not going to keep their mouth closed. I mean they just won’t. And too, I think some of them think they would be big in someone’s eyes if they came and sent someone back and told well such and such yea they going and I could tell you some, you know. I think. That’s what I think it is, mostly, that they feel that somebody else can see them as being big.<\/p>\n

And McElvane said the other day in church \u2013 say he told the girls that somebody in here is taking information on the outside and he just rolled right on ahead and she came right back and told Mable.<\/p>\n

That’s horrible. One, I am so tired of these Goddammed something (both were talking) It pisses me off. That was not said at all. I mean these people are just sickening. They really are. They are actually sickening. No that wasn’t said, in fact we had a beautiful service. Beautiful service\u2026 I sure wish I knew who that little lady was. And went back and told Mable\u2026 That’s totally untrue. I don’t like interrupting you because you might lose your thought \u2013 that’s why I’ve been quite [quiet]. So you’ll remember the things that were told to you. That’s why I haven’t been saying anything. That’s a little bit too much though.<\/p>\n

And they even told what color dress you wore.<\/p>\n

Yea and I’m sure that dress caught another sister’s eyes.<\/p>\n

Did you wear it for two Sundays?<\/p>\n

No. I had it on once. I had no choice. (Laughter) Too much\u2026 Well, I’m glad the sister liked it.<\/p>\n

Did McElvane have on a white shirt with something pulled over it?<\/p>\n

White shirt?<\/p>\n

With long pullover on top of some pants?<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

R-1-D-9p<\/p>\n

pg 17<\/p>\n

I don’t know. I really don’t know. Even get down to clothes?<\/p>\n

Yea.<\/p>\n

They haven’t said nothing about\u2026<\/p>\n

Then what would you do wear the same dress Sunday and say well I am glad some sister like this dress \u2013<\/p>\n

And they can wear it \u2013 if they’re the same size, you know. They can wear it too. Have they said anything about CJ [Charles Johnson] \u2013 I know you had mentioned his name before.<\/p>\n

Oh yes CJ is going with some woman out on Broadway.<\/p>\n

Out on Broadway?<\/p>\n

Yea it’s somebody that he goes with that she’s a member that she doesn’t go to church anymore. But CJ’s going out with her \u2013 he tells stuff too.<\/p>\n

Do you know CJ?<\/p>\n

Uh Uh (no)<\/p>\n

This being something that Fannie Mobley\u2019s telling you.<\/p>\n

Uh huh.\u00a0 Who is CJ?<\/p>\n

He’s one of the associate ministers who talks like the rest of us \u2013 gets up and talks.<\/p>\n

When did he come here?<\/p>\n

I don’t know when he came \u2013 I don’t know exactly.<\/p>\n

Well anyway they told Fannie that he had came down here and then he went up and got all his clothes, and that he is seeing this woman \u2013 cause she says she’s always there on Broadway, he and this woman together.<\/p>\n

Oh my God\u2026 Downtown Broadway?<\/p>\n

Yea. LA.<\/p>\n

What do you mean by Broadway? You mean downtown Broadway?<\/p>\n

Broadway Street or something like that. He’s with this woman. She used to be to church, but she’s not anymore.<\/p>\n

No name there either?<\/p>\n

No.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

R-1-D-9q<\/p>\n

pg 18<\/p>\n

\u2026 Just a lady\u2026 And Willie Parker ain\u2019t going nowhere. They said that Willie Parker ain\u2019t going nowhere.<\/p>\n

Isn’t that something?<\/p>\n

Well, I don’t know if Willie is going or not \u2013 of course it’s up to each individual whether they want to go or not. It’s up to them.<\/p>\n

And they said that he wanted them all out of here by September so that he could tear this place up.<\/p>\n

Oh my goodness.<\/p>\n

[Paragraph starred] Because Jim said he is going to tear this place down. And the District Attorney said well you know God is the God of everybody and everything, you know. That God don’t come by and take a few enemies out and kill his friends. He said I’m sure that all the people that he have is his enemies right with him.<\/p>\n

Well, that’s too much. That is a little bit too much.<\/p>\n

Well\u2026 When you planning on going; you know that you can go at any time. Now, Carrie, we ain\u2019t until you get no plane.<\/p>\n

Huh?<\/p>\n

Were the last time I talked to you, you were going to go ahead and get you a helicopter or plane?<\/p>\n

Oh yes \u2013 I ain\u2019t\u00a0 going to wait around\u2026<\/p>\n

laughter\u2026<\/p>\n

I want it with lights all over the bottom when I land\u2026 I hope Vee will be standing out so I can run over her\u2026 (Laughter)<\/p>\n

I get so mad with her (still Carrie)<\/p>\n

You know, I’m really hurt about Clara and Rosie.<\/p>\n

Rosie wrote to you didn’t she?<\/p>\n

I’m really hurt over Clara. I really am. Now Vee you don’t know how it really upset me. It really upset me.<\/p>\n

I know you work with her a lot here.<\/p>\n

I took off. I lost $200\/week to be with her. I washed, I bring her food, I did everything. I am really hurt, because when Clara left, she said I’m not going to do like the rest of them, I’m going to write to you. In the winter I went and bought her a dress for $60.<\/p>\n

\u2026 all of them Carrie. All of them.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

R-1-D-9r<\/p>\n

pg 19<\/p>\n

\u2026\u00a0 If I could just get a letter. And she said Carrie I’ve been so busy, I am doing all right and sign her name, I would appreciate that.<\/p>\n

Yea\u2026<\/p>\n

If you can, try to make it Sunday if you’re not working and see the film.<\/p>\n

Where at the church?<\/p>\n

I can’t come to church, you know why?<\/p>\n

I know why.<\/p>\n

Because if I come down there, somebody’s going to come back and tell them. No, I wouldn’t do that. Because then we wouldn’t get no information.<\/p>\n

Let’s see, can you come maybe Thursday or Friday or Saturday and I could show it to you.<\/p>\n

This Thursday? At your home?<\/p>\n

Yea.<\/p>\n

Because I wouldn’t go to the church because that would mess up everything.<\/p>\n

Yea.<\/p>\n

I can come there to your house.<\/p>\n

OK we\u2019ll try to have it for you then. You will just have to see them.<\/p>\n

When next Thursday? Tomorrow is Thursday.<\/p>\n

Maybe Friday. What Friday be OK?<\/p>\n

This Friday?<\/p>\n

Yes.<\/p>\n

OK<\/p>\n

about 5:30<\/p>\n

And listen I don’t want old Mammie to see me<\/p>\n

That’s just what I was going to get ready to tell you \u2013 come in the backdoor. I was getting ready to say the same thing.<\/p>\n

I don’t want Willie Parker to see me because he goes and tells stuff<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

R-1-D-9s<\/p>\n

pg 20<\/p>\n

How do you get in there?<\/p>\n

Well maybe we’ll have to come to your place then.<\/p>\n

Yea because they go back and tell it.<\/p>\n

OK<\/p>\n

You know what, we could go down to the church \u2013 just me you and McElvane.<\/p>\n

All right.<\/p>\n

OK<\/p>\n

Friday at 5:30, we\u2019ll see you then.<\/p>\n

OK<\/p>\n

Carrie, don’t come on Western part, come to the back part.<\/p>\n

OK<\/p>\n

I’ll call you first.<\/p>\n

OK<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

[Editor\u2019s Notes: Who is speaking when in the conversation is unknown, in part because of the inconsistency of spacing between exchanges. The transcript shows nothing but the conversation, with no names attached to individual lines. [A second conversation involving Carrie Tucker from July 11, 1978 \u2013 but also without identification of speakers \u2013 appears here.] […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":8,"featured_media":0,"parent":88016,"menu_order":18,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-114062","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/114062","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/8"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=114062"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/114062\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":132984,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/114062\/revisions\/132984"}],"up":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/88016"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=114062"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}