{"id":118723,"date":"2022-11-28T14:56:43","date_gmt":"2022-11-28T22:56:43","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=118723"},"modified":"2022-11-29T09:17:36","modified_gmt":"2022-11-29T17:17:36","slug":"q794-transcript","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=118723","title":{"rendered":"Q794 Transcript"},"content":{"rendered":"

(Editor’s note:<\/strong> This tape was transcribed by Heather Shannon. The editors gratefully acknowledge her invaluable assistance.)<\/em><\/p>\n

To read the Tape Summary,\u00a0click here<\/a>. Listen to MP3 (Pt. 1<\/a>,\u00a0Pt. 2<\/a>).
\nTo return to the Tape Index, click here<\/a>.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong> Yes, testing one two. Motherfucker.<\/p>\n

Male 2<\/strong>: Testing one two three four five.<\/p>\n

0:15-2:17 Incidental conversation in preparation for press conference<\/p>\n

Moderator:<\/strong> Our press conference is going to start now. Uh, the first person to speak will be Reverend Cecil Williams, and I think all of you press people recognize the individuals here: Assemblyman Willie Brown, Reverend Jim Jones and Will Holder of the Prisoners Union. We\u2019ll have the statements consecutively, and after everyone\u2019s made statements, then we\u2019ll be open to questions. We don\u2019t want any questions as speakers make their statements.<\/p>\n

Woman<\/strong>: Okay, we\u2019re going to ask that you move your microphone (unintelligible).<\/p>\n

Moderator:<\/strong> Are speakers (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Unidentified male<\/strong>: Are they good enough to just be turned?<\/p>\n

Two people<\/strong>: Yes.<\/p>\n

Unidentified male<\/strong>: All right. (unintelligible) Everybody ready?<\/p>\n

Moderator:<\/strong> Everybody ready? All right. Go.<\/p>\n

Cecil Williams<\/strong>: Eldridge Cleaver came home voluntarily. He came home because he felt very strongly that he could get a fair trial. Now, since his return, we have seen some evidence uh, of a fair trial certainly not taking place. The important thing is that Eldridge Cleaver should<\/em> be released on bail at this particular time. There are those of us in the community that are very concerned<\/em> about the fact that he has not<\/em> been released on bail, and we are making an appeal to all people to make sure<\/em> that Eldridge Cleaver gets a fair trial. It means, however, that certainly he must be released on bail at this particular time. And so, therefore, it seems to me that the fact that, uh, other people have been released time after time who have not even served <\/em>the time that Eldridge Cleaver has, on parole, he ought to be given the opportunity. Finally, just this: Is it likely that there are those of the Adult Authority that are afraid of this man? That are threatened? Because he\u2019s going\u2013 the likelihood of him being released? I would say to you that the important thing is that whether they\u2019re threatened or afraid or whatever the case might be, he should<\/em> be<\/em> released. And we\u2019re here to support his release of bail at this time.<\/p>\n

Willie Brown<\/strong>: What may indicate to you that, uh, uh\u2013 First, to thank you very much for giving us this opportunity to address the public, and then secondly, indicate to you that, uh, Eldridge Cleaver is, uh, imprisoned in the state of California currently, uh, without having had any kind of a hearing on a probation or a parole revocation. There are many other persons similarly situated. Why do we call attention to this issue now, is because E\u2013 Eldridge obviously is a personality, and he is a person who can, in fact, command the attention of the media and of a whole lot of us in terms of his<\/em> plight. But his plight is simply representative of many other persons similarly situated, and I think the gentlemen from the Prisons Union would echo that fact. It is a fact in this state that you can be a parolee and languish in jail for two, three or four years while awaiting a disposition of a new charge before anyone makes a decision as to whether or not your parole should be reinstated or revoked. If your parole is reinstated, you have been in prison for that period of time without any kind of compensation and what-have-you.<\/p>\n

No one is asking at this time that a decision be made to simply terminate Eldridge Cleaver\u2019s parole or any of those proceedings. What Eldridge is asking for, and what those of us who represent some of the conscience of the community is asking for, is that he be given bail, the same kind of privilege that every other American is entitled to before any kind of conviction has occurred, with reference to any particular new offense for revocation purposes. It seems to me that\u2019s a minimum<\/em> that this state ought to provide to every<\/em> citizen, and certainly including Eldridge Cleaver. There have been cases where people have been similarly situated, and they have been permitted to bail. It seems as if special attention is being given to Eldridge Cleaver, as well as some other individuals, but certainly special attention is being given to Eldridge, and therefore he requires special attention from those of us with community concerns. And all we\u2019re asking is that the public address itself to that issue and the Adult Authority lift the hold so Eldridge Cleaver will be eligible for the one hundred thousand dollars bail which has been already set by the judge. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Jim Jones:<\/strong> Peoples Temple h\u2013 has helped\u2013 We\u2019ve assisted several hundreds of people. And again I reiterate what Mr. Brown said. He is\u2013 Mr. Cleaver\u2019s condition is as representative of too many people of minority backgrounds. Different members are contributing a few thousand dollars to his defense fund, I can say absolutely that Mr. Cleaver\u2019s certainly not funded. There is a misnomer going about that he is an agent. If he is an agent, he\u2019s certainly getting very bad treatment. I cannot uh, believe this and do not accept it. It\u2019s also strange to me that when Mr. Cleaver is saying some very good<\/em> things about America, pointing out some of its good points, that there is no one coming to his assistance<\/em> at this particular time, except the people that you see here and some other, uh, a few friends. Uh, I\u2013 I feel that, uh, Mr. Cleaver certainly<\/em> could be trusted, uh, I don\u2019t know the process of the law, but it would seem to me that on his own recognizance, when he comes all the way from France and voluntarily surrenders himself. He\u2019s also surrounded by conditions, having visited the prison. He\u2019s surrounded by some very strange conditions. He\u2019s been moved into a\u2013 an area where he\u2019s surrounded by uh, white\u2013 uh, white racists uh, and members of the Hell\u2019s Angels. And he was speaking to me in some concern, not for his own life but for his own children, that he could be able to rear them, that uh, one of the people that was serving him food<\/em> had been involved in some prison violence. I think these are deplorable conditions, and I\u2019m no more concerned about Mr. Cleaver than I would anyone else that is not represented in the American mainstream. He has a right <\/em>to his hearing, he has a right<\/em>to bail, he\u2019s been there now many months going on a year, and it\u2019s high time that Eldridge Cleaver gets his fair day in court.<\/p>\n

(chairs moving, footsteps)<\/p>\n

Will Holder<\/strong>: I\u2019m here today because I\u2019m an ex-convict and because I am one of the uh, members of the same class that Eldridge Cleaver is, the convicted class. Uh, this to me is just another example of the high-handed lawlessness of the Adult Authority that exercises their discretion and selectivity as to who, uh, will receive hearings uh, under uh, the mandate of the law. Uh, Eldridge Cleaver is, uh\u2013 meets all the criteria for a Rodriguez hearing. Uh, this is being denied to him, although it\u2019s been given to many others, uh, under similar situations. Uh, there\u2019s no doubt in my mind, being of the convicted class and being\u2013 having been subjected to similar things \u2014 not to the intensity or the degree that\u2013 that Eldridge has \u2014 uh, but this process of selectivity, uh, uh, eats away people\u2019s life, this the people\u2019s lives. And Eldridge is being subjected to it, and uh, I don\u2019t think there\u2019s any doubt in anyone\u2019s mind that uh, this is, uh\u2013 that this, uh, is the reason<\/em> that the Adult Authority is denying, uh, Eldridge the right to a Rodriguez hearing. The Prisoners Union uh, as\u2013 as one of its commitments, uh, uniformity in inequity in sentencing people to prison. And this uniformity in inequity is not applied\u2013 not being applied to Eldridge Cleaver, uh, who is one of many<\/em> people that it\u2019s not being applied to. If your name gets in the press, you\u2019re dead and stinkin\u2019, you know. So, the thing to do in order to get a Rodriguez hearing is never to speak up for what you think<\/em> about the system. If you speak out about what you think about the system, while you\u2019re in jail or outside of jail, and then get in jail, you\u2019re through. You\u2019re dead and stinkin\u2019, if they\u2013 if the Adult Authority has any controls over you whatsoever.<\/p>\n

Male<\/strong>: You\u2019re free to ask any questions that you may think of.<\/p>\n

Female reporter<\/strong>: (chair moving in the background) Uh, you know here that the hearing on this matter will be held tomorrow. Are you saying the hearing on the probability of bail will be held tomorrow, or a hearing on the issues that we (unintelligible).<\/p>\n

Male<\/strong>: Well, Mrs. Cleaver will have to answer that question. I don\u2019t think either one of us are privy to what the legal process is (chair moving, unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Kathleen Cleaver:<\/strong> The hearing is on a petition for release from jail. It\u2019s against the\u2013 the (unintelligible) on the refusal on the part of the Adult Authority to grant him a release from jail. So the attorneys are asking the court<\/em> to order his release from jail on the grounds of very solid law, the fact that if a Rodriguez hearing had been held, which the Adult Authority refuses, he would have easy\u2013 easily<\/em> had been discharged in the sense that for a crime in 1958, for which he was convicted, the average time running from five to maximum nine years, he\u2019s done almost twelve<\/em>. They have no reason to hold him, and so if the hearing\u2013 if the petition is granted, then he\u2019ll be able to make bail. At present time, you can\u2019t\u2013 you\u2019re not allowed to make bail.<\/p>\n

Holder<\/strong>: Let me amplify on what Mrs. Cleaver has said. Uh, the law some months ago in the Rodriguez case said, in effect, that persons who are incarcerated, if in fact the combination of the time that they have served and the time on parole had gone beyond the mean level of time, or the average amount of time that people spend for that particular crime, then they were literally entitled to an immediate release. If, in fact, Eldridge Cleaver was similarly situated and had been treated as if he was a Rodriguez, in the Rodriguez category, under that theory, which is the theory of the case that\u2019s going before Judge [Spurgeon] Avakian tomorrow, Eldridge Cleaver would have been discharged <\/em>from parole and therefore not subject to anything except posting the one hundred thousand dollars bail pending the trial of the new matter stemming out of shooting in 1968 in Alameda County.<\/p>\n

Reporter 1<\/strong>: Mrs. Cleaver, I\u2013 as I understand that (unintelligible) the attorney of record. (unintelligible) Do you have an attorney for the trial?<\/p>\n

Cleaver:<\/strong> Not yet, not yet.<\/p>\n

Reporter 1<\/strong>: (unintelligible) Are you going the Public Defender route, or what\u2013<\/p>\n

Cleaver:<\/strong> We\u2019ll have it August second.<\/p>\n

Reporter 1<\/strong>: August second.<\/p>\n

Reporter 2<\/strong>: Can I ask uh, what kind of community support there is for Eldridge Cleaver? I know there was a lot of resentment, uh, about his situation (unintelligible).<\/p>\n

Holder<\/strong>: Well, you’ll be getting to see it now, Mel, (chuckles) there\u2019s no doubt about it. Uh, I think that there\u2019re those of us here, who work with a lot of people in the community, uh, who, uh, relate to a lot of people in the community. Uh, when the defense fund first began, uh, over in Berkeley, uh, some of us were there working with about three hundred people as\u2013 as it began like about two months ago or three months ago. And, uh, so the groundswell has begun because there are those of us who are convinced that it\u2019s important that Eldridge get a fair trial. Uh, if you\u2019ve got money, you get a fair trial. If you don\u2019t have money, you don\u2019t<\/em> get a fair trial. If you got community support and a little<\/em> money, you may get a fair trial. (Laughs) So the important thing is that here\u2019s<\/em> a man who has to have a fair trial. The community\u2013 You\u2019re right, there\u2019s been a lot<\/em> of resentment, because a lot<\/em> of things surrounding<\/em> Eldridge Cleaver were misunderstood, misrepresented and even, whatever the case might be\u2013 wh\u2013 whether the facts were right or wrong, the important thing is that\u2013 that the man has come back, and he is saying now, I\u2019m\u2013 I\u2019ve voluntarily<\/em> come back, I want to have uh, uh, an equitable situation. And so he\u2013 he comes back to do that, and it\u2019s\u2013 it\u2019s incumbent<\/em> upon us<\/em> to make sure that it takes place.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong> How much money have you raised?<\/p>\n

Cleaver:<\/strong> Uh, we\u2019ve raised, uh, about fifteen thousand dollars.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong> What\u2019s it gonna take?<\/p>\n

Cleaver:<\/strong> Money. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Holder:<\/strong> And that’s why we’d like for it to be known, that those who are interested and concerned<\/em> and who want to make sure that Eldridge gets a fair trial, that they, uh, respond by sending that money to\u2013 where, Kathleen?<\/p>\n

Cleaver:<\/strong> 2490 Channing Way\u2013<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong> 2490 Channing Way, Berkeley, California. A\u2013 and it’s for the, uh, Eldridge Cleaver Defense Fund.<\/p>\n

Holder<\/strong>: Uh, Mel, you asked about the community, you know. I think, uh, you know, just last night I was listening to the news on Channel 5.<\/p>\n

(overlapping chatter and laughter)<\/p>\n

Holder<\/strong>: I also listen to Channel 7 as well. I\u2013 I listen to all the channels, uh, but specifically I have\u2013 I have a gripe about Channel 5. It\u2019s over the kidnapping of these 26 children that they\u2019re in\u2013 in the news (unintelligible). It\u2019s been so confusing as to what has been going on there for the past, uh, uh, few days as reported by specifically Channel 5, I\u2019m talking about now. (Stumbles over words) just two of \u2018em, and you know they\u2019ve got people convicted that, that, that, as\u2013 uh, uh, coming out of San Quentin, they\u2013 it\u2019s so confused. So, uh, God, I\u2013 I really uh, doubt that, uh, Eldridge can get<\/em> a fair trial until there is some, you know, some, uh\u2013 uh, some semblance of investigation as to determine what uh\u2013 just actually, what is <\/em>going on. It\u2019s\u2013 it\u2019s confusing as hell, and\u2013 and the press has been playing a big part in this. They played\u2013 play\u2013 play one big part. And, uh, last night, in watching uh\u2013 watching that\u2013 that news, uh, God, uh, you don\u2019t know who it is or what it is, and\u2013 and\u2013 and all of a sudden, uh, the press is becoming the police department, you know. I, I agree with the\u2013 with the\u2013 with the, uh, uh, uh, I guess it was the chief of police or somebody from Oakland that\u2019s, uh, uh, you know, and what he had to say last night. And this is\u2013 this is the whole thing. We don\u2019t know him. Who knows what. Man, all I know is that Eldridge Cleaver is an ex-convict and that\u2013 of that class, you know, you\u2019re in trouble if you open your mouth.<\/p>\n

Brown:<\/strong> Can I just say this? There\u2019s one thing that\u2019s very important. Remember, not too long ago in San Francisco, one of the big fights in the public schools was the fact of whether or not Soul on Ice<\/em> was gonna be read by students in the public school system. Now you<\/em> know that that, uh, his writings have had a great deal of influence on a lot of people, uh, through the years and uh, maybe this is one reason why they\u2013 you know, Eldridge probably could do a little writin\u2019 in\u2013 in prison, but he could probably do a lot better writing if he were out of prison. So, maybe, you know, he\u2019s he could be somewhat of a threat at this particular point. The man wants to live a life. He wants to live his life. And he wants to live it with his family\u2013 That, that\u2019s vitally important.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong> If you were defending Eldridge, would you ask for a change of venue?<\/p>\n

(Assemblage chuckles)<\/p>\n

Brown:<\/strong> Uh, George, uh, uh, I really don\u2019t think so. I think I would, uh, want Eldridge on bail, and that\u2019s as far\u2013 uh, for a starter. And then I think I would want to be tried, uh, in the San Francisco Bay Area. I really think Eldridge\u2019s peers are in the San Francisco Bay Area, if they\u2019re anyplace. And uh\u2013<\/p>\n

George<\/strong>: Well, I guess I was addressing my question to\u2013 to uh, (unintelligible) he couldn\u2019t get a fair trial.<\/p>\n

Brown:<\/strong> Well, uh, let me say that I think, uh, Eldridge will be able to secure, uh, a trial that will meet with his definition of fairness and my<\/em> definition of fairness, if he is permitted to go on bail and proceed to participate in his\u2013 unencumbered, in his own defense. I think that\u2019s awfully important. If you think about the number of what so-called \u201cmovement\u201d trials that\u2019ve been held in the San Francisco Bay Area, including, uh, uh, San Jose, you will note that there have been almost zero convictions<\/em>, uh, where there has been total and dedicated preparation and where the matter has gone on an unencumbered basis over a long period of time, starting with uh, the Los Siete<\/em> trial here in San Francisco, tried by Michael Kennedy and Charlie Garry and those people up through and including, uh, a lack of convictions so far in the San Quentin Six matter. And it seems to me that those matters were handled in that way in which they were handled because first, they had excellent <\/em>lawyers representing those people. Secondly, they had great<\/em> community awareness. They had a considerable amount of media attention that did not take away from their possibility of getting a fair trial, simply because the media got the facts and got a posture from the standpoint of the defense. As of now, the media cannot get a posture in\u2013 from the standpoint of the defense, because Eldridge is not available on a daily basis to deal with those kind of issues and to do that kind of work. Kathleen is doing an excellent job in, you know, getting us together, but she cannot do what Eldridge could do on a gut level in terms of pursuing his own defense. As a lawyer, I would want Eldridge on the streets, I would want the matter tried among Eldridge\u2019s peers and my<\/em> peers. And that, of course, would be San Francisco County.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/strong>Thing rather amazes me is that, uh, Eldridge even enlightened my<\/em> mind. I\u2019ve seen many faults in our society. And when I was there this last time for an hour and a half, hearing him say things that are painfully<\/em> not<\/em> acceptable by most of the progressive community. It\u2019s amazing to me that the conservative and moderate community does not respond<\/em> to him when he\u2019s extolling many of the virtues of American society. I could hardly believe that the Adult Authority and the sheriff\u2019s department represents the left<\/em>. But it\u2019s\u2013 it\u2019s, uh, extremely strange<\/em> to me that he is not given a forum for his ideas. And he had some very, uh, challenging thoughts<\/em>, thoughts I didn\u2019t want to hear, in comparing our nation with other nations, uh, you\u2013 one always likes to think there are panaceas<\/em>. And he enlightened me, I must say, and it seems rather strange that this man is not given an opportunity of all these months that he\u2019s wasted away there. It\u2013 it seems that it\u2019s high time that people who say they are concerned about America\u2019s\u2013 America\u2019s well-being that\u2013 that they would respond<\/em> to this man. And I see no evidence of any support from the conservative or moderate community at all. It seems that we who are considered the progressive community are the ones that are backing Eldridge\u2019s right to a fair trial. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Voices<\/strong>: Thank you very much. Thank you.<\/p>\n

Chatter, chairs moving<\/p>\n

(21:35) Tape edit.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Part Two:<\/strong><\/p>\n

Radio broadcast noise.<\/p>\n

Jones<\/strong>: Defense funds, thank you. I\u2013 I was distracting. Defense funds that we\u2019ve, we\u2019ve herald, you know, Cleaver to AIM, to various people, Angel, what uh, that the uh\u2013 I think we got a good swing in the uh\u2013 the bond thing, we actualize the Bill of Rights. We don\u2019t care what a person\u2019s political view is, we don\u2019t want people to be discriminated against because of being a minority. And then tell the kind of activist programs, adoption, children (unintelligible) that\u2013 that\u2013 swing that in, but m\u2013 meatier<\/em> than I saw them. Tell [Richard] Tropp to give it his best polish, too. If we can get that son-of-a-bitch committed while things are not breaking too bad for us.<\/p>\n

(unintelligible exchanges)<\/p>\n

Jones<\/strong>: Congratulations. (Pause) Not Cecil. I don\u2019t mean Cecil really. Sometimes they look\u2013 seem like twins, but not really. Willie, I think, has got more character in him than Cecil has, oddly enough.<\/p>\n

Man<\/strong>: Cecil wasn\u2019t saying anything<\/em>.<\/p>\n

Man<\/strong>: He has more content of than anything. (unintelligible) far heavier than Cecil Williams.<\/p>\n

(papers rustling, unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Cecil\u2019s such a goddamn liar. I talked to him. He lied to me (unintelligible), in some situations (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> So, so the board was a little concerned, and I want you to know this ain\u2019t a thing they do, they probably won\u2019t\u2013 but I got, I got it all\u2013 I said it was my fault. So in the future, (unintelligible) you know, there may be other conferences, there may be other things happening. Say that I would suggest in the future that you have Jim, uh\u2013 because he didn\u2019t even realize how some of \u2018em felt. He feels that they\u2019re not makin\u2019\u2013 they make it too, Uh, this\u2019ll appeal to her. He\u2013 uh, he did feel this, that uh\u2013 and our board, uh, felt this too, that the appeal<\/em> is to get the fact that, uh, uh, that Eldridge is extolling<\/em>America\u2019s virtues while also pointing out in the areas of need for change. He extols<\/em> American virtues. And that<\/em> needs to be heard<\/em>. There might be some sleeping conservatives and moderates that respond. Well, they won\u2019t. But the point is that will appeal to her uh, self-interest.<\/p>\n

Mike Prokes:<\/strong> Yeah, I\u2013 I had said that to her.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> They say they felt\u2013 now his, his words didn\u2019t get, uh\u2013 because uh, knowing the process, they take down the first two. She can tell me this process over and over again, and I wouldn\u2019t remember the process. I don\u2019t recall ever hearing, uh, the process, but vaguely I do remember that you said uh, the technique. I don\u2019t know that you explained it so elaborately as you did there. They have their technique. They take so many. And that\u2019s it. Fuck you. (Inhales) I think you have made that<\/em> point, but, uh, I was not given the opinion that, uh\u2013 I thought she\u2013 See, all I knew about \u2013<\/p>\n

(unintelligible exchanges)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> She just comes up and tells me I don\u2019t have Cecil Williams and (makes babbling noises). She has certain remarks. I mean, she was\u2013 she was acting like she was commanding what the hell she wanted. (unintelligible word) She\u2019d have resisted this. You be the third speaker. And she told me that.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/strong> That thi\u2013 thi\u2013 uh, (unintelligible) when I talked to you.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> No, no, you did\u2013<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/strong> All right. If I\u2019da known that, yeah, you didn\u2019t want to be\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> No, son, you didn\u2019t tell me the third speaker. The first I heard of it\u2013 I know when\u2013 my memory\u2019s faulty, but when I know I\u2019ve heard a new thing, I know it. You jolted me (unintelligible), uh, you, you presumptuous bitch, put me in the (unintelligible). I didn\u2019t want to hassle with her over the phone. And you weren\u2019t hassling with her, so I\u2013 I just uh\u2013 I relent.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong> She\u2019s got some reason to feel uppity, you know. I mean, that she\u2013 that she can do that.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> No, he\u2013 he gave me the reason, he thought he gave me the reason. So we\u2019ll have to undo that reason. Give her some logical reason why he would allow<\/em> her to put Cecil Williams in front of me<\/em>. That says, Cecil Williams has more clout<\/em> in the community than Jim Jones has.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong> Mm-hm [Yes].<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> \u2013and that\u2019s very likely true. He don\u2019t produce more, but he\u2019s got more image in the community. He ain\u2019t got shit, his image wouldn\u2019t buy shit, either. I\u2013 I\u2019ll take our position any day because we can get things done<\/em>. Clout. But uh, I know we\u2019ve<\/em> got more clout. But as far as (unintelligible name), they\u2019ll use him, they\u2019ll\u2013 they\u2019ll quote him more. And uh, I don\u2019t think she needs to have that impression, that we\u2019re more popular. And you might say that was a mistake because the board said uh, Jim Jones is\u2013 is more popular with a number of ministers in a large denomination than Cecil is. But Jim will go along with Cecil being first because he likes Cecil. Get some of the shit that I\u2019m sayin\u2019?<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Make you realize that I am<\/em> the power. Though I\u2019m not. Cecil sure ain\u2019t got any impression of ministers, either they\u2013 he just got (clears throat) (Pause) But he\u2019s got a cross\u2013 a cross\u2013 section of support. Jim Jones has got respect in all corners<\/em> of the community. Not just liberal, but conservatives, and a\u2013 and a remark made to him because they respect him for he\u2013 he\u2013 he lives<\/em> his convictions and uh, he\u2013 if he had been quoted something the way I may be able to tell\u2013 tell people (unintelligible word) come. So you might call\u2013 tell her to call to try to get some of the quotes\u2013 the quotes in the conservative\u2013 She can call, bitch. See, because that appeal by him will get some people in the conservative community react. And her talking to the press to write it down might<\/em> cause him to do it. (long pause) Just might.<\/p>\n

(unintelligible exchanges)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I\u2019m being uh, a\u2013 a newsman, I know the effect it\u2019ll have. I just know Jim\u2019s hu\u2013 humility, and I couldn\u2019t waive a total effect of what was gonna be said. He doesn\u2019t like me to push forward. That\u2019s why I didn\u2019t say anything. But the more that I have to concede, the more it makes some excellent points, so the members of the board and the press. I don\u2019t need a (unintelligible word). (whispering) The old fat bitch. I don\u2019t like her. What she asked of me in the uh, gathering.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/strong> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong> Oh, yes, (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> It wasn\u2019t her. Whoever this bitch was, totally ignored us<\/em>.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong> Yeah. She\u2019s with channel 4.<\/p>\n

(unintelligible exchanges)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (coughs) What\u2019d she ask? Anything of any significance?<\/p>\n

(unintelligible exchanges)<\/p>\n

Tape edit<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Jim Jones said it on the TV. (unintelligible) He feels like the church ought<\/em> to\u2013 for here\u2019s a man who\u2019s extolling<\/em>American virtues and saying it\u2019s the greatest nation on earth. And he languishes in jail<\/em>. What encouragement is there anyone\u2013 to anyone who may be militant and seeing the error of their ways and not making change? As he said this very morning on channel 4, channel 9 (unintelligible) at a press conference at the Unitarian Church so that it would not just be garbage, you know, and uh, and all the newspapers were present. KBIA, Chronicle<\/em>, and so forth. (Pause) Did the Chronicle<\/em> write, the first time I spoke?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/strong> Uh, I doubt if they did.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong> It would be nice if we can get the, uh\u2013 the program on Channel 9 that has to do with Cecil Williams vivacious. It\u2019d be nice if you could get a program on there like that. That\u2019d be uh, uh, you know, it\u2019d be a capsule-type thing, and it would come across well.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> It really would, and if you guys mind s\u2013 sell it uh, to someone, maybe we could get it done. I don\u2019t know what the hell it\u2019d cost. Even if we had to pay for the sonofabitch for a while, it would be uh\u2013 It\u2019s so terribly expensive. What\u2019d you said it was?<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong> And I\u2019m\u2013 I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n

(unintelligible exchange)<\/p>\n

Jones<\/strong>: It\u2019d be 9. You didn\u2019t say 9? Did you say 9?<\/p>\n

Male<\/strong>: Yes, I did.<\/p>\n

Jones<\/strong>: I don\u2019t think you can get 9, for fuck\u2019s sake, I don\u2019t think they\u2019ll give it to you. They won\u2019t sell any time\u2013<\/p>\n

Male<\/strong>: Hmm.<\/p>\n

Jones<\/strong>: You know what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: I don\u2019t think so\u2013<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong> You were\u2013 You were talking about reaching, uh, a certain liberal, white community.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Uh, yeah. I\u2019m not\u2013 and I\u2019m not particularly concerned about reaching them motherfuckers. But there\u2019s where the uh\u2013 the ageny\u2019s gonna watch (unintelligible). Do you know what the fuck is going on in the\u2013 in the\u2013 in the left, and the progressive\u2013 They\u2019ll\u2013 they\u2019ll keep a tap on that\u2013 that media. I don\u2019t know how much we\u2019ll reach through (unintelligible). There nothing like a liberal. They\u2019re\u2013 they\u2019re more\u2013 they\u2019re more, uh, sicker than\u2013 they\u2019re really dangerously sick. And\u2013 and the conservatives, you know, the motherfucker conversatives, (unintelligible) You\u2019d never predict them. They\u2019re crazy, they\u2019re schizophrenic. One time they\u2019re for something, and then (unintelligible). I met so many of them, take an issue with them\u2013<\/p>\n

Tape edit<\/p>\n

Jones<\/strong>: They won\u2019t support it. They got businesses that\u2019ll even support it (unintelligible) If the cost isn\u2019t too much. What would it cost for a week? 15 minutes every week, or half an hour?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/strong> On what station?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know. Shit.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/strong> I mean, that\u2019s\u2013 that\u2019s\u2013 7<\/em> I think is a possibility.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> All right. Talk to them.<\/p>\n

(unintelligible exchanges)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> You gotta be highly motivated. You don’t need to make a big to-do.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong> That\u2019s how, that\u2019s how Cecil\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> If you get me on principle\u2013 if you get me on principle, I can really raise a bunch of hell. But you can\u2019t get on principle without wrecking the ship. Cecil can be flamboyant and say nothin\u2019.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong> Right, right.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/strong> Like today.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong> That\u2019s wh\u2013 He does it all the time. And that\u2019s what he\u2013 he\u2013he gets across. He\u2019s\u2013 he\u2019s flamboyant and he wears\u2013 wears a style. (Laughs) That\u2019s about it. If he started dressing down, and even if he was (unintelligible)\u2013 if he was flamboyant and dressed down, he wouldn\u2019t\u2013 he wouldn\u2019t be worth two cen\u2013 Except he ain\u2019t. He\u2019s not worth two cents now. (Pause) I haven\u2019t seen the other with their high-heeled sneakers. In the style.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/strong>: I guess Carlton [Goodlett] has a picture of him when he first came. I haven\u2019t seen it.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong> (unintelligible) in his office.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/strong> Oh, yeah?<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong> Yeah. He had his collar on, and he had little horn-rimmed glasses and\u2013<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/strong> And he looks straight.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong> Oh, very straight. (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones<\/strong>: Yeah, he was straight, I saw it. Seems like I saw it.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong> Yeah, we saw it in his office, one time when we came (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

tape edit<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> \u2013We get hassled on a number of issues and some of them, they want to hassle our workers, causing that\u2013 that picket line there. Anyway, you could drop off the papers at a certain spot, tell them the spot, say we could drop off the papers. Some of the times so we don\u2019t have to\u2013 so our orders don\u2019t\u2013 \u2018cause some of our workers don\u2019t take that hassle as well, you know, not as diplomatically as others. Say, when we believe something\u2019s right and we think your paper\u2019s important to be heard. And we think the last place to strike, get over the top, to get hold of (unintelligible). So we\u2019d be the last place in the world, our\u2013 our minister said, that should be struck is your<\/em> place. And you\u2013 you\u2019ve got to be heard<\/em>. And (unintelligible word) some of our people would get\u2013 and some of our journalists will just volunteer their time to help you, help uh, a paper such as yours. \u2018Cause obviously an alternative press can\u2019t pay the kind of wages uh, that the established press does, \u2018cause of the controversial things you say. But he\u00ad\u2013 he don\u2019t mind it. But he isn\u2019t free, he said, he crossed the line himself every time, he\u2019s not\u2013 he\u2019s\u2013 he tries and speaks here and there and travels between our churches. So, just wondered if anybody\u2013 do you have anyone who could just drop \u2018em off at such\u2013 at such and such a time, we\u2019d be\u2013 we could pick \u2018ewm up. He want to make it such and such a time, \u2018cause some son-of-a-bitch try to come through here, they\u2019d be\u2013 then we\u2019d have more diplomatic problem. But don\u2019t take my judgment on anything. Everything come up, uh, alone, weigh it, because you (unintelligible), number one, no inspiration. And that sometimes that inspiration were against us, because you can. We have\u2013 Uh, I have offset the tide on occasion. (unintelligible) right wing shit, in\u2013 internal revenue. I\u2013 I just sorta got an attitude, well, it\u2019s coming, it\u2019s coming. But it can\u2019t accept that attitude. So you people are gonna have to think, and get your brains together and think. \u2018Cause, uh, my brain is very<\/em> tired. And so many years of it. Yesterday I was just went at a fast pace and pushing myself and diplomatic, and my heart got\u2013 I got really, really strange. I called a bunch of motherfuckers I knew I should<\/em> call, because they never call, only when they want something. So I made the point to contact the bishop and the heads of these various agencies that we call on (unintelligible word). In a sort of a casual basis, offering, we\u2019ll, how\u2019s things going, do you want\u2013 can we do to help you<\/em>. And I mean, I\u2019m just\u2013 I\u2019m not\u2013 I don\u2019t have enough motivation to shit.<\/em> which I need to shit right now.<\/p>\n

[Three minute balance of segment low voices, mostly unintelligible]<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Part 3:<\/strong><\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Two\u2013 two times I can remember. One was with the mayor’s uh, aide and the other time\u2013 (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Kay<\/strong>: Well, I\u2013<\/p>\n

(talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> I don\u2019t even demand that. I think that\u2013 I mean, my personal feeling is what I told Mike, and it\u2013 and I told Janet. And it\u2013 I don\u2019t know how it came off as a criticism, but I said that even with the movie thingy, even though I had gone with somebody else, I think that people have to have this to maintain their sanity. I mean, they can\u2019t just go on and on and on and on working and never have a\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> What was the kick about the movie, I don\u2019t recall.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> Well, I\u2013 I\u2013 I just happened to\u2013 to mention that I had gone to, uh\u2013 (Huffs) I hadn\u2019t gone to a movie for about three and a half years, and then all of a sudden one weekend, Ava asked me if I wanted to go to a movie. And I didn\u2019t even know if people were going to movies. And I\u2013 I went. And I was saying how I had felt about when I was\u2013 you know, I mean, I was really uptight about going because I thought it\u2019d been said that, you know, you weren\u2019t supposed to waste money. Not<\/em> that I don\u2019t think people should go, I think that they should<\/em> go.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I guess. I don\u2019t get anything out of it when I do go. When I\u2019ve gone with the kids, it\u2019s all (yawns) it\u2013 it all depends upon what your threshold of pain, and I always help myself by looking at that black woman, as I told you and say, well, she\u2013 she don\u2019t even eat, much less go to any pleasure, and then I\u2013 frankly, I don\u2019t get anything out of the TV box or the movie, but I don\u2019t criticize you people for that. Uh, the thing that concerns me sometimes is that, uh, uh, Debbie Harvey was extremely<\/em> critical of you, and Arthur both critical of you, that you would be defending them<\/em>, uh. That\u2013 that was tough thing to happen\u2013<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t defend them<\/em>. I defended the situation<\/em>. Not them as people.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Yeah, but you see\u2013<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> \u2013but the incident\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> \u2013you\u2019ve got to know the ramifications of what people in school who are counterproductive, and then the idea that I would send Johnny Brown. This just blew my mind. I thought, well, I might as well just make my own uh, stand and be\u2013 feel clean, even though it\u2019ll be abrupt, uh, be clean and be honorable, if you would think that I would have no more love for you, that I would send somebody in there to make, uh, a stupid<\/em>, uh, presentation if you did what you described. But to get your job. Uh\u2013 That was uh, to me the uh\u2013 that was too much.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> Well, I just\u2013 I mean, I don\u2019t\u2013 I can’t explain to you how overwhelming it was. I was just in shock<\/em>. I had not seen Johnny act like that in\u2013 I don\u2019t know, I just couldn\u2019t believe\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (yawning) Excuse me, I have had so little sleep, I\u2019m yawning. Uh, uh, Johnny, if he was trying to impress, and they said\u2013 their opinion was maybe he was trying to impress uh, some guy you mentioned (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> Darrel.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Darrel. If that\u2019s the case, then Johnny needs uh\u2013 that\u2019s why, that\u2019s why we have PC [Planning Commission]. That\u2019s why we have PC. He sure needs to take a look at himself if he did that.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> And then to turn around and tell her that he was a minister of the Los Angeles Temple.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Very, very stupid.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> I, I d\u2013 I mean, I\u2013 It was totally illogical. I couldn\u2019t deal\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Well, (unintelligible word) you know, I got more love for you or should<\/em> feel it to\u2013 to do that to you. Why would I want your job for? And uh, there\u2019s more behind this school dropout than you know. Debbie didn\u2019t tell you the truth on there. And, uh, Arthur quitting. W\u2013 let he have to quit? Uh\u2013 He didn\u2019t have to quit school. That\u2019s another lie. You just don\u2019t know the whole story, you see. You only get half the story. One way you get all the story is to stay in long, long meetings to get them all, I guess. You do what\u2013 to get all, the long meetings, just to get over all the story. I could tell you, both Debbie and Arthur sure uh\u2013 particularly<\/em> Arthur, he was just totally (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> Well, I\u2013 you know, I\u2013 I don\u2019t know. I just know that he came to me and asked me, uh, didn\u2019t I approve him to go to school, and I said yes. And he said to me that because he was trying to study or whatever, that, uh, Jack had told him to quit school.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> He\u2013 he\u2019s nuts. He\u2019s nuts. He\u2013 he told more crap\u2013 probably the crap he told on you guys, uh, several of you, you and some others. I wouldna lied to you.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> Well, I was confronted with it. You know, and\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> No, you weren\u2019t (unintelligible word) all this shit, \u2018cause I didn\u2019t believe it.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> Well, I didn\u2019t even like the idea or the fact that he\u2013 I mean, I do believe that it was\u2013 that he was probed to get it. Now, I believe that. I don\u2019t believe that you had anything to do with it. But I believe that he was.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Naw, no, he didn\u2019t. Noooooooo, he didn\u2019t get probed to give me what he gave me. I didn\u2019t probe him, because I didn\u2019t want (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> Oh, no, I know you didn\u2019t. I know you didn\u2019t do that.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> No, he gave me stuff voluntarily. I don\u2019t\u2013 I couldn’t give you every little detail. But he\u2013 he\u2013uh, he like to sow confusion. Kid\u2019s going to have to learn a few things out there. He\u2019s just going to have to learn a few things. He likes confusion. He likes trouble.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> Oh, I know. I know that. I wasn\u2019t defending. I\u2013 I know Arthur, I live with him. I know what he\u2019s like. I know<\/em> what he\u2019s like, and I wasn\u2019t defending that at all. What I was saying is that I don\u2019t think\u2013 I just have my own personal feeling about black people being able to go to school. And I mean, I feel that way. I know that the reason why I couldn\u2019t go was because my mother couldn’t afford\u2013 afford it at the time. But I\u2019m saying it, now I think that if they can go they should be able<\/em> to go, and that was what I was saying and\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (Yawning) Yeah, I\u2013 I agree. And he was denied\u2013 We want him in there\u2013 in\u2013 in school. Rascal. But there’s more to it\u2013 there’s more to it. I don\u2019t want to get into his personal life. But he knows better than this.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> And well, no. I\u2013 I don\u2019t either. I\u2013 I mean, I just, I just wanna\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Well, I do, even if there\u2019s more to it.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> Clarify my position, was not to defend Arthur in doing anything.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> The thing you can do for me, you certainly. I\u2019d give my life for you (fades out) Give me, uh\u2013 write me up\u2013 I suspect what\u2019s happening to you, you have written longer, uh, uh, narratives than some\u2013 so some people have tried to uh, give synopsises, and they probably have missed\u2013 So I\u2019ll read a narrative if necessary to come to an understanding, because coming to an understanding in important decisions I have to make. So, you just write me up all things. Thus far, I\u2019ve got an answer for everything you\u2019ve said. And I don\u2019t mean a pat answer, I just can\u2019t talk too freely over a telephone. And I know you feel less comfortable on the phone, everybody feels less\u2013 less comfortable. But you sure don\u2019t know the kind of love I have for you (unintelligible) and the trust. Because to think that you\u2019d be uh\u2013 (unintelligible) Of course, not\u2013 I don\u2019t know what\u2013 then I begin to wonder about\u2013 maybe you\u2013 that\u2019s the kind of trust you have in me, if you think I\u2019d come in and take you. That shows where your head is about me.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> Well, I didn\u2019t think it had anything to do with me, on a personal level. I just thought that every\u2013 I just thought that was general procedure.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> No. No. No.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> And I didn\u2019t have any feelings about it one way or the other. I thought I made that clear.<\/p>\n

SIDE B<\/strong><\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> \u2013how your youngsters need training. And if you hadn\u2019t been able to provide it, I\u2019da had it there. I would\u2019ve seen that uh, the situation provided because I have seen too many things like Debbie Evans having (unintelligible), just too many things.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t mention that, but I was disturbed about that too.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019m\u2013 I\u2019m sure.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> I just\u2013 I\u2013 it\u2019s just\u2013 I don\u2019t know. I mean, I just\u2013 for whatever you stand for, I just get so upset that other people do not deal with it in that manner. I mean, that they do not take into consideration people\u2019s personal state of mind and people\u2019s feelings and how certain situations and statements affect them as individuals. I don\u2019t understand why. I don\u2019t\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Now here\u2019s what you got to do. If you\u2013 in\u2013 into the leadership of this thing, night and day, in this center here, you\u2019d see how, if you don\u2019t let some things go, you wouldn\u2019t have any sanity<\/em>. I mean, I mean, you, (stumbles over words) possibly took care of everything perfectly<\/em>, you wouldn\u2019t get it done.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> I know, I understand that. I understand that when they do get around to it, to show some human concern.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Well, I\u2013 I just say that everybody\u2019s lucky if they got a friend like I. Because when the count\u2019s down, I\u2019ll be there, like I was this afternoon for a woman. Framed. Uh\u2013 Little likelihood that that could happen to her, but it did. You never know what\u2019s coming to me. You or somebody close to you. Somebody dear. This is a very cruel society. But what I\u2019m saying is, you got to look at the overall, Kay. You really do<\/em> have to look at the overall. And\u2013 and then look out there, what there is out there. What the hell is there out there? Everybody uses everybody. Tonight, we had a case on the church floor, a young man and woman, thought they was in love, and then comes up, the young man\u2019s messing around with another woman, and then, all of a sudden, before we can do it, she\u2019s uh\u2013 she\u2019s on top of him like a tigress, uh, fightin\u2019 like a\u2013 she\u2013 she\u2013 I don\u2019t know what she\u2019da done if we hadn\u2019t intervened. Uh, but love. It\u2019s evil spelled backwards. Uh, people\u2013 You know, everybody just uses people in the world, and when they\u2019ve sucked all the blood they want, they go to the next<\/em> one. And that\u2019s what I\u2019d like for you to do, is to project your future (unintelligible) different than any other woman. The way life ends up for people, and then what gives the most satisfaction, standing for principle, or doing our thing. And I, uh, for a number of years, have enough sense to see the overall good. And I\u2019d just like for you to analyze some of the things you\u2019re saying. But I\u2013 I\u2019m still<\/em> open enough that I want to hear what you have to say on the subject, so write it up and give it to me, if you will.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> I will.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> And I will study it with meticulous concern, and I think what happens is that you do<\/em> write very thoroughly and narratively, and somebody has tried to give synopses, but you wouldn\u2019t. You never can get from synopsis what uh, a person writes. And they\u2019ve done that with the best intent, because a number of our people write heavily and repeat themselves over and over again. Or when people try to get synopses, it\u2019s sometimes difficult. I think as I recall, that maybe what\u2019s happened (unintelligible) reports have been very uh, thorough. Very extensive. And uh, if I recall, sometimes people try to synopsisize and that, uh\u2013 there\u2019s always some loss, like the two, with the best of intent, uh, they uh\u2013 they can\u2019t possibly get everything across that you have on your mind.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> Well, no. I\u2013 I understand that, and I appreciate the fact\u2013 and I know that Teri [Buford] works extremely hard. And I don\u2019t, I have any\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> No, Teri isn\u2019t the one that uses synopses. (unintelligible) Sharon [Amos] I think synopsisizes mostly. She\u2019s usually pretty thorough, but uh, uh, Teri is damn<\/em> thorough. But there\u2019s so much on her.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> I know, and\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Teri has a great deal of regard for you and, uh, sometimes you\u2019re mistaken about though. (unintelligible) doessn\u2019t like you, not that that is too relevant to you, but it\u2019s still\u2013 It shows that you\u2019re capable there.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> Well, I don\u2019t really care about her. I mean, I don\u2019t care about her liking me. But I do have a lot of respect for her.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/strong>(unintelligible) respect for you.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> I usually\u2013 When I want something told directly the way that I can\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> You\u2019re safe.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> \u2013I give to her.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> That\u2019s the safest place to do it. Well, it helped to talk to you, and I will\u2013 I certainly will weigh everything you say, and I\u2019m trying to make my decisions in the long run. I wanna give your kids\u2013 and that\u2019s what\u2019s most important. We\u2019ve lived our lives, and we know, that there\u2019s nothing out there. Nothing to it at all. Uh\u2013 Although I must say, the last three days I spent over there, I felt myself enjoying the happiness of others to a degree I never thought I could do it. But I want\u2013 I want to give kids like yours the chance at not ending up in\u2013 in a damn jail or broken<\/em> by society. And if you\u2019ll stop to look at it over all, we may have every catharsis and things come down pretty heavy, but the\u2013 the net result is that our people are stronger<\/em>. We\u2019ve got strong black men and <\/em>women (unintelligible). Uh, but I will try to clarify some of these things, to uh, Janet and uh\u2013 and I think Mike understood you even better, really, that uh\u2013 \u2018cause he had his own personal feeling toward you in the past. He had an emotional feeling towards you. So, that may be subjective thing help him to understand you more. But he, uh\u2013 he interpreted you uh, pretty good light. She<\/em> didn\u2019t do anything negatively about you, but I was just thinking, (unintelligible word) better grasp of thing.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> Yeah, well, I\u2013 (sighs) I try to be. Uh, I mean, I think I was very honest in\u2013 in my\u2013 I mean, I don\u2019t know if it\u2013 I\u2019m not saying that it\u2019s all right. I\u2019m just saying that I just told it the way I felt it. And I thought that that was necessary because I\u2019m\u2013 I\u2019ve been holding back.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Well, I just wish you hadn\u2019t. With your mind, I need your mind, I\u2019ve told you a dozen times, I coulda used it in so many areas, even though I use it plenty. Got out there in force, and still worked that out, that you could do that because you\u2019ve got a keen mind. I just wish you\u2019d face life a little more realistically, then you wouldn\u2019t get your knot so much. You\u2019d say, well, it\u2019s nkot to life. If you didn\u2019t have a cause, it\u2019d be an even bigger knot. Uh, but the tiredness, I do empathize with that, getting up. That\u2019s why you were one of those responsible for that, getting it shortened. Then I even shortened it beyond that<\/em>. Hell, last Wednesday night meeting was two and uh\u2013 Saturday was midnight<\/em>. I have been pushing business no end, I said, let\u2019s get on business business business, and I\u2019ve tried to deal with some of these people privately, but it\u2019s\u2013 it\u2013 it (unintelligible word) it\u2019s a miracle. Really it\u2019s proof that I\u2019m a miracle worker, \u2018cause I stay alive, because I\u2019ve been trying to take some of these privately what you people have had to deal with publicly. And that\u2019s not easy.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> Well, I guess\u2013 Yeah, I\u2013 I understand that, and I\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> And I got five people waitin\u2019 for me downstairs, but I wanna go upstairs, \u2018cause I don\u2019t want anybody to hear this, uh\u2013 and uh\u2013 \u2018cause I didn\u2019t want to put your uh, position out, not that you\u2013 I\u2013 I\u2019m trying to protect your image, because I\u2019m not feelin\u2019 the pressure for you to worry about your image, and other people are not gonna be affected by your decision that\u2013 to that degree. I just want to be fair with you. And I want to be principled to the collective. Now I\u2019ve got<\/em> to know that you are intelligent understand the truth. This is<\/em> the truth. And I\u2013 that\u2019s why I\u2019ve had some problems, you don\u2019t understand some of the rationale<\/em> for these things.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> I understand that. I just, uh\u2013 I know I\u2019ve been working straight through for about four years, and I haven\u2019t had any real vacation\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> That, that can\u2013 That can mean any difference, that can mean any difference,\u2013<\/p>\n

Kay: And that continues staying up and staying up and nine people to be responsible for, and all of \u2018em crazy as hell\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (chuckles)<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> A\u2013 a\u2013 I just\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I\u2019m not laughing at that, I\u2019m\u2013<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> I just felt like I was just going crazy. You know, I j\u2013 I just feel like I was going crazy.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Well, I remember your statement uh, about Mother (unintelligible) and said I wasn\u2019t laughing at it, I felt the pain of it. Uh, I (unintelligible) And he said\u2013 He says, it\u2019s not funny. Indeed, it\u2019s not funny. Sometimes I laugh to make other people just relax a little. But it\u2019s sure not funny to me either.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> Well, I\u2013 I think it does get so extreme, that it\u2019s\u2013 it\u2019s\u2013 it\u2019s from one extreme to the other. It\u2019s either funny or just totally just nutted out, you know?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Yeah. Well, once again. Try to keep the analogy in your mind of a boat. Bound to have some holes with some of the nuts we have. (unintelligible) But that boat is afloat, and it\u2019s got a lot of powerful connections. We had the mayor move today on s\u2013 some more jobs. Uh\u2013 that\u2019s\u2013 that\u2019s uh\u2013 it\u2019s a tremendous security to you, and if you don\u2019t care about yourself and your child and your mother and anybody else that\u2019s gonna be victimized like when she was with her\u2013 her house, you know, (unintelligible), put some pressure to move her, there\u2019s nothin\u2019 like a group, Kay, there is nothing like a group for the people you love.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> Yes, I understand that.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> So just weigh that. In the service, give me a\u2013 a write up on all this and I\u2019ll weigh it. I want to take time to deliberate and weigh it and I\u2019ll\u2013 I\u2019ll avoid any confrontation, I won\u2019t even mention where you\u2019re at, because I haven\u2019t said a word to anybody where your mind\u2019s at. I don\u2019t\u2013 well, you say how I protected uh, Grace, and I am (unintelligible). I have a great deal more faith in you than (unintelligible). But you see I am trying to protect her (unintelligible). But I\u2019ve got to find out, if people can understand the reason and principle, then I\u2019ve got to make decisions as to what I\u2019m gonna do. That\u2019s why I wanted to call you, and I\u2019m sorry to have to call you at this hour.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> (unintelligible) That\u2019s perfectly all right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Thanks for talking, darling. I do love you very much.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> Thank you for calling.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Bye-bye.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/strong> Bye-bye.<\/p>\n

End of tape<\/strong><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

(Editor’s note: This tape was transcribed by Heather Shannon. The editors gratefully acknowledge her invaluable assistance.) To read the Tape Summary,\u00a0click here. Listen to MP3 (Pt. 1,\u00a0Pt. 2). To return to the Tape Index, click here. Male: Yes, testing one two. Motherfucker. Male 2: Testing one two three four five. 0:15-2:17 Incidental conversation in preparation […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":8,"featured_media":0,"parent":27291,"menu_order":534,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-118723","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/118723","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/8"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=118723"}],"version-history":[{"count":6,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/118723\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":118795,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/118723\/revisions\/118795"}],"up":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27291"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=118723"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}