{"id":123600,"date":"2023-07-23T12:17:50","date_gmt":"2023-07-23T19:17:50","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=123600"},"modified":"2023-07-23T12:32:19","modified_gmt":"2023-07-23T19:32:19","slug":"abc-news-jonestown-interview-with-mike-and-tim-carter-11-25-78-parts-1-2","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=123600","title":{"rendered":"ABC News: \u201cJonestown\u201d: Interview with Mike and Tim Carter, 11\/25\/78 (Parts 1 & 2)"},"content":{"rendered":"

Transcriber’s notes:<\/strong> The first and second parts of the interview may be viewed directly through the ABC VideoSource Archive here: ABCNEWS VideoSource<\/a> (Search 20P708O for Part 1; 20P708P for Part 2)<\/p>\n

Alternatively, it may be viewed on YouTube here: 1978 SPECIAL REPORT: “TIM AND MIKE CARTER SPEAK OUT ON JONESTOWN”<\/a><\/p>\n

This interview \u2013 or rather, better described as a \u201cmini-impromptu press conference\u201d \u2013 features surviving brothers Mike and Tim Carter, who have just arrived at the Park Hotel in Georgetown, Guyana, nearly a week after the events of November 18th. The two brothers, along with Mike Prokes, managed to escape the Jonestown mass suicides after being assigned the task of delivering suitcases filled with money to the Soviet Embassy in Georgetown. The brothers \u2013 along with a few reporters \u2013 sit amid the open-air veranda of the colonial-era hotel and answer a multitude of questions asked by reporters. Although Mike Prokes is present at the hotel, he is neither heard speaking on the tape nor seen.<\/p>\n

Some of the questions asked to the brothers include: their custody status; what they saw prior to leaving Jonestown and the instructions they were given; their relationship with Jim Jones; practice suicide drills; what attracted them to Peoples Temple and Jonestown; their duties in the Temple; the conditions in Jonestown; the money they escaped with; and the guns they were given; their personal fear, among other questions.<\/p>\n

Additionally, in the second part of the tape, Tim Carter shows the reporters a few photos of both their wives and children, which can be seen on the tape and are noted in this transcript. Most notably, however, towards the end of the second tape, survivor Harold Cordell\u2014one of the Jonestown defectors\u2014suddenly appears and angrily accuses the brothers of being \u201cgoddamn liars\u201d and questions how they obtained guns.<\/p>\n

TAPE 1 (18:32): <\/strong>Search 20P708O on ABCVideoSource or watch here:<\/p>\n

1978 SPECIAL REPORT: “TIM AND MIKE CARTER SPEAK OUT ON JONESTOWN”<\/a><\/p>\n

(00:00 – 18:31)\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: (Camera focused on Tim and Mike) What do you call yourselves?<\/p>\n

Tim Carter<\/strong>: My name is Tim Carter.<\/p>\n

Mike Carter<\/strong>: Mike Carter.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Where have you been until now?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: We\u2019ve been at the police headquarters under protective custody. (Camera zooms in on Tim) Not under arrest, but just under protection.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Where were you last Saturday?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: We were in Jonestown.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: How did you get out?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Well we had been asked before this had all started\u2014we had been asked to\u2014by a woman named Maria Katsaris to\u2014he [Mike Carter] and I were asked to help this gentleman [Mike Prokes] over here to help deliver a suitcase and um\u2014[Maria] said it would be heavy, he\u2019s going to need some help. So we agreed to do that. Uh\u2014I said I\u2019ve been through this so many times today\u2014so many reporters. (Sighs) Anyways, just as things started happening is when we got out and ran for our lives.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: What did you see before you ran?Tim<\/strong>: Well\u2014(Unintelligible whispers) When I went by the kitchen I heard a lot of screaming and people crying. And uh so I went up by the pavilion\u2014and I saw (Voice crack) mothers leaning down holding babies\u2014people crying and I\u2014when I saw my wife\u2014holding my son who\u2019s dead\u2014(Unintelligible whisper)<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: (To Mike) What did you see?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: (Camera pans over to Mike) Um I didn\u2019t\u2014I saw\u2014I wasn\u2019t near the pavilion at any time this was happening. I had walked by\u2014approximately two hundred yards away from it\u2014and saw a lot of people there uh\u2014who were standing outside of it. It looked to be just a mass of people. Uh no organization to it. But uh they were all standing outside of the pavilion and\u2014um I can\u2019t make it but I heard a guy talking over the PA system in there, saying somethings\u2014I couldn\u2019t make it out. I didn\u2019t hear anything else in there.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: How were you able to get out?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Well as he said earlier, she\u2014Maria had asked us to help (Sighs)\u2014Mike [Prokes] to uh carry a heavy\u2014package and she\u2014we were allowed to go change our clothes and meet later with him and take this out.<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: You have to remember\u2014(Camera pans over to Tim) the time reference is everything was happening very quickly. Uh that whole day, everything happened very quickly.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: What took you around to Jonestown in the first place?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Are you talking\u2014(Camera pans over to Mike)\u2014when I first came? Um well, I had been\u2014uh in the Peoples Temple since I was fifteen. So all my highschool I\u2019d been in it. I didn\u2019t really have much else in the world. It seemed to me\u2014I mean from the propaganda\u2014it seemed to be a nice place to live, you know.<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: The Promised Land\u2014<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Yeah, the Promised Land is what it\u2019s called. So my wife\u2014my child was born here\u2014my child was born here. My wife\u2014uh came here a little bit before I did and had the baby here (Unintelligible).<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: In lieu of what\u2019s happened, what do you think about Jim Jones?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: (Camera pans over to Tim) I think he\u2019s a madman. I think he was insane\u2014and I hate him.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: How was it that more than nine-hundred people\u2014are dead?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: It\u2019s a good question. (Shakes head) I still don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: I can\u2019t\u2014(Camera pans to Mike)\u2014make it out. I mean\u2014(Shakes head) it\u2019s\u2014it\u2019s (Unintelligible word). I went ahead and went back Monday to identify the bodies. And I never in my life have seen anything like it\u2014bodies were arranged\u2014it seemed to be\u2014at least a lot of the bodies were arranged in a certain way. It was just\u2014I had never seen anything like that in my life.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: How did you know Jim Jones?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Not well personally at all. And as I\u2019m finding out more, a lot less than I thought.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Would you describe yourselves as loyal followers of the Peoples Temple?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: (Camera pans to Tim) I guess at one time. Not anymore.<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Not now. Not now. I had said\u2014up until Saturday.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: So you were not loyal to the point (Camera pans to Mike) that you would take your life?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: (Camera pans to Tim) No\u2014and the whole thing was insane. It was\u2014(Shakes head) (Unintelligible) I\u2019d never ever\u2014imagine anything like that could happen. Anybody would be so\u2014insane as to try to\u2014create something like that.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: (Reporters and Mike talk over each other)\u2014Did you ever take part in\u2014uh the practice suicides?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Not here in Guyana. One in the States but I wasn\u2019t in Jonestown at\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Why did you take part in that?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Because I didn\u2019t know I was doing it at the time. It was\u2014an organization called the Planning Commission, which was the leadership and they\u2014passed some drinks around but then I think Jones said something like “we have one hour to live\u201d and I didn\u2019t believe it\u2014at the time it was happening.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: What was your role in the organization?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: While I was here I was doing public relations work and customs.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: In that role, how close did you get to Jim Jones?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Well I was considered to be close but I was not that close. I was never one of the inner\u2014you know, inner\u2014inner circle. As I\u2019m finding out, there\u2019s a lot I didn\u2019t know that was going on and it was going on the whole time. (Two reporters talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Did you see people shooting other people?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Nothing.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: What did you see?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: I told you what I saw. I saw\u2014women kneeling down\u2014holding\u2014a lot of crying\u2014cause I said I was not playing detective at the time. I wasn\u2019t trying to do anything. I\u2019d\u2014almost immediately I saw my wife and my baby and that\u2019s where I went\u2014 (Unintelligible whispers)<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: (To Mike) You saw no death whatsoever\u2014<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: No. (Unintelligible) As a matter of fact when we went back (Camera pans towards Mike) uh to help identify\u2014from my understanding there was only three people who were shot\u2014Jones being one of them. Uh the rest were po\u2014poisoned. When we saw\u2014I mean the bodies had badly decayed. There was foam coming out of their noses and mouths and it was so\u2014grotesque. (Shakes head)<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Can you explain the\u2014the altercation here or your uneasiness about staying at this hotel? (Camera zooms out)<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: I think it\u2019s understandable. It\u2019s just that two different groups of people left in two different circumstances. And\u2014and because we were considered to be in the in-leadership, they are a little bit\u2014they\u2019re trying to start their lives over again\u2014and we are\u2014I think that\u2019s all there is to it. We asked specifically not to be right here because we did know they felt like that. And um I understand that. And\u2014and really that\u2019s all there is to it. I think we want to start our lives over again and they want to start their lives over again and it\u2019s as simple as that. I think everybody is afraid right now more than anything.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Do you have any bitterness left towards any of the people who left\u2014those who would be defectors? (Camera zooms in on Tim)<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Not at all. I wished I had listened to them.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: What was your reaction to officials who were saying there were about four hundred people there\u2014and their bodies had been recovered yet we now know there\u2019s about nine hundred bodies recovered.<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: (Camera pans to Mike) Um\u2014in my\u2014you know as I said I saw\u2014I couldn\u2019t figure out where they had gone, you know, for so many days and not be found. I mean the jungle is extremely thick. You can walk into it\u2014just a few yards\u2014and it be like you\u2019re miles into it. Um\u2014none of us knew the jungle that well. You would have to have a guide\u2014an Amerindian\u2014to survive for any amount of time in the jungle\u2014to know what to eat, what to drink, what\u2019s safe. And I\u2014I didn\u2019t know what had happened to it\u2014I had no idea.<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Apparently bodies were stacked on top (Camera pans to Tim) on bodies is what had happened.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Since you handled\u2014since you handled pub\u2014public relations, presumably you would know the population of the camp. How many people were there?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: I think it was around nine hundred\u2014nine hundred fifty. I don\u2019t know the exact number but I think it was around nine hundred.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: And how did\u2014what were you thinking when you were told only four hundred bodies had been recovered?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: I thought that three hundred people had gotten out alive and they would be showing up very soon. And it makes sense\u2014sense to me in the three days that we were in Port Kaituma, that uh nobody showed up. Not one person would come out.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Are you going to remain a member of the Peoples Temple?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: No way.<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: There\u2019s no\u2014I no longer consider myself a member of Peoples Temple.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Do you have fear for your life?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Yes, very much.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Why?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Well, a number of things. We heard that some people were out to get survivors\u2014it\u2019s like people that were afraid for their lives (??) We heard that the\u2014I don\u2019t know if its factual\u2014I heard that the mafia had a contract\u2014to kill any ex-members if anything happened and also\u2014I am personally afraid for when back in the United States\u2014anybody who\u2019s lost relatives, even though I lost a sister, a wife, and a son. I didn\u2019t know\u2014it\u2019s just a very emotional thing.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Do you want to go back to the United States?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Eventually yes, but not right away.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: What is your status for with the Guyanese police now\u2014are you still being held in protective custody or\u2014or what is your status?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: We\u2019re not sure exactly. We\u2019re being held I think\u2014uh we\u2019re not under arrest and\u2014we never had been under arrest. Uh we were brought here along with the others cause that\u2019s where\u2014they\u2019re keeping the survivors. But I really honestly don\u2019t know. I think that will unfold as the days come. (??)<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Why are you under guard? I noticed you notified a policeman to go to the bathroom.<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: I just\u2014I only did that so none of the other people here would think that I am trying to go up to their floor. (Unintelligible)\u2014they\u2019re very paranoid. So I just did that for my own\u2014safety and so they would be assured that nothing would happen.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Are you free to move out, move on from this hotel? If you wanted to get up now right\u2014in two minutes\u2014right here from this hotel, can you do that?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Uh no, I don\u2019t believe so since we\u2019re still working with the Guyanese police and their investigation and they\u2019ve asked us to stay here.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Have they given you any kind of explanation for why they brought you here?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: No they didn\u2019t. Cause we\u2014we\u2014like I specifically said\u2014<\/p>\n

(Tape cuts)<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>:\u00a0 \u2014Helped the investigators and told them everything happened\u2014that we saw.\u00a0 (Unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: (Unintelligible; question likely about Tim\u2019s role in public relations)<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: When I say public relations\u2014let me clarify something. I didn\u2019t mean that in the sense of talking to media, but in terms of\u2014uh talking to different people in the (Camera pans to a reporter) government about\u2014(Brief tape cut) I\u2019ve been in Georgetown most of the time. Uh there was a lot of things that were going on that I was not aware of.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: For example?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Well\u2014a lot of the beating (??) that I heard that had gone on and uh\u2014I mean I heard things but I never heard any\u2014I didn\u2019t believe them\u2014 (Brief tape cut) So there was a lot of things that were going on and my wife never communicated to me\u2014you know, any complaints to me.<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Um it was the living conditions\u2014especially over the past few months\u2014it had gotten more crowded. Uh there were some lumber that had just come up to make some new houses. Uh\u2014the food was\u00a0 not the greatest, you know. But we were never hungry and he would talk\u2014Jones would talk a lot about um\u2014you know, there\u2019s starving babies all over the world and you should be glad you have food. You know, a lot of it was guilt. He put a lot of guilt on people. And you know, so you let it pass by because you had guilt and you felt guilt. (Camera zooms in on Mike\u2019s hand expressions) While you know, there\u2019s people who don\u2019t have food, and I have food, you know. But it wasn’t you know\u2014the greatest. When we had something good it was this great thing.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Why do you think (Unintelligible)\u2014Peoples Temple?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: I don\u2019t think they had a choice. (Camera pans to Mike)<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: What do you mean by that?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: I don\u2019t\u2014um in my opinion\u2014like I talked to another guy\u2014Odell Rhodes\u2014who had told me he had\u2014one person had stood up and said they didn\u2019t want to do it. And when we went out there to help identify, she was there.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: (Camera pans to the reporter) What was it about Jim Jones that drew you two\u2014<\/p>\n

(Brief tape cut)<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Um it was like the family\u2014I didn\u2019t really have a lot of friends and there everyone was warm\u2014uh they accepted me. It was interracial\u2014I never really had any racist feelings and\u2014it seemed to be, you know, a type of\u2014you know, place that you would think would be a great place to, you know, be at. Because people were friendly and everything like that. But\u2014 (Shakes head)<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: How much of a factor was race in Jones\u2019 ideology?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Um\u2014wait\u2014what\u2014do you mean like did he use it a lot or? He\u2014he\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Well for one thing, apparently a large percentage of the membership of the Peoples Temple was Black. How do you explain\u2014how do you explain that\u2014what was his special attraction for the Black people who joined that cult? And for that matter, the White people? It wasn\u2019t an unusual cult in that sense (Mike nods head) because of the racial makeup\u2014what was it about Jones and his teachings that brought that\u2014<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Well, it\u2019s sort of difficult. He was\u2014<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: (Unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Yeah. I really\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: What about a white person?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Well the thing that drew me was the uh\u2014he seemed to be\u2014he had a charisma about him that\u2014you know, I think just attracted a lot of people from a lot of different areas. He would talk uh\u2014about you know\u2014no racism, you know. He taught like\u2014love and peace, stuff like that, you know\u2014you shouldn\u2019t cause harm to anybody and type of things\u2014and I believed it. I really never had any\u2014idea that this would be the end of Peoples Temple. It was just\u2014 (Shakes head) everything that he said wouldn\u2019t happen\u2014and it happens.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Do you think this is the end of Peoples Temple?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: I think so. I don\u2019t see um\u2014who would carry this on.<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: (Camera pans to Tim) Jim Jones is the center of the organization. I don\u2019t see how\u2014I don\u2019t see how\u2014see why it should go on. I mean it\u2019s uh\u2014I mean I\u2019m not a member. If people\u2014people understood that the organization was built around Jim Jones, Jim Jones is dead.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: (To Tim) What was your title, and what was your salary?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: I had no official title. There were no official titles in\u2014in the group. And it wasn\u2019t a salary in the sense of getting an official paycheck or anything like that but I had\u2014all my needs were provided for, and my family\u2019s needs were provided for.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: (To Mike) What about you? What did you do?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: (Camera pans to Mike) Um\u2014basically I\u2014I uh would repair the radios. I was a radio operator for a while and I would operate on the radio. And uh\u2014but mainly would be doing repair work there. And no, I never had a salary\u2014other than all my needs were taken care\u2014you know, housing, feeding, clothing, that type-of-thing\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>:\u00a0 What do you think happened to the money?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: (Sighs) That\u2019s a good question. I think a lot of it is in accounts. Uh I\u2019m not really sure how much was where\u2014you know, the money was kept tight. And\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Who was in control of it?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Uh as far as I know the treasurer was Maria Katsaris. Uh I\u2019m pretty sure that\u2019s who it was. I mean that\u2019s who I knew of\u2014who controlled the money.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: (Unintelligible)\u2014About the suitcase you were carrying?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: That\u2019s true. We were.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: (Unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Well\u2014uh<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: (Unintelligible)\u2014You escaped with the bags during the poisoning?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Well I\u2014my brother had\u2014<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: From\u2014from the very beginning\u2014it was crazy\u2014<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Yeah.<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: (Camera pans over to Tim) (First part unintelligible) \u2014It was totally circumstantial\u2014totally circumstantial. It wasn\u2019t, you know\u2014by choice. And uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: You were there\u2014when it actually started? (??)<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Like I said I heard screaming, I heard crying. I went to the back of the pavilion and I saw bodies on the ground\u2014mostly mothers kneeling and I saw my wife and my son\u2014and that\u2019s where I went. I was not interested in anything else.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: What about the visitors who came to the camp? Russians?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Well, there was the Soviet delegation that visited. There had been\u2014you know, there had been a lot of visitors to Jonestown\u2014uh as well as the American Embassy who visited several times also.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Why did they come?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Why did they come? I really don\u2019t know. Um\u2014there had been talk about a move to the Soviet Union, which I think was used as a panacea. With people\u2019s\u2014a hope for better living conditions\u2014because it was crowded and the food wasn\u2019t as great as you would want. Um\u2014but I was not there, so I don\u2019t know what to place with your questions.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Was there\u2014to your knowledge\u2014any connection whatsoever\u2014<\/p>\n

Tape ends. <\/strong><\/p>\n

—-<\/p>\n

TAPE 2 (8:55)<\/strong>: Search 20P708P on ABCVideoSource or watch here:<\/p>\n

1978 SPECIAL REPORT: “TIM AND MIKE CARTER SPEAK OUT ON JONESTOWN”<\/a><\/p>\n

(18:31 – 27:26)<\/p>\n

This interview continues from the previous part; however, there appears to be a brief tape cut between the two parts. The second part begins with Tim\u2019s response to a reporter\u2019s question\u2014likely in regard to sex in the Temple. <\/em><\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: (Camera focuses on Tim) I\u2019m not quite sure if I understand the question. People had\u2014sex.<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: It was nothing out of the ordinary. At least not that I know of. I mean like you know, like I had a wife and everything. And, you know, it was\u2014I mean people are people, you know. Yeah, very much\u2014birth control was allowed, you know\u2014at any time you wanted it\u2014you just went and asked for it, you know. And uh, you know any\u2014you know, relationship, you know\u2014you could go with anyone you wanted to, you know. But I mean\u2014they did not like\u2014did not like\u2014uh marriages broke up. They did not like that\u2014and mixing, you know, of marriages. That was not approved of.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Did you know Dr. Schacht at all?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Not well. I knew him\u2014just as a doctor. I never really was a friend or anything of him.<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: (Camera pans to Tim) I knew him. I didn\u2019t know him very closely.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: What would make him prepare\u2014 (Unintelligible)\u00a0 poison\u2014<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: The same thing I think made everyone do it. I don\u2019t know\u2014brainwashing? I don\u2019t know. The whole thing was insane and I don\u2019t understand it. I don\u2019t understand the whole thing.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: How did Jones brainwash that many people like that? How did he brainwash you?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: I think it was a combination of guilt, hope\u2014offering hope\u2014uh\u2014intimidation of sorts. It was a number of factors but I think those are the three words I can best describe it.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Why would you join the Peoples Temple? What was the attraction?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Well I heard about Peoples Temple originally from a woman I knew in Nevada. And she told me that she had met Jim Jones and he was a very wonderful person and that I should\u2014see him. So I eventually went to a meeting and um\u2014the thing that I was initially impressed with was the uh\u2014I saw more harmony there between blacks and whites than I had seen anywhere else in my life. And I thought that the organization was a one that was helping poor people, you know\u2014doing something that was positive in society.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: What\u2019s your hometown?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: What\u2019s my hometown? I was born in Berkeley. I grew up in Burlingame, California.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Thank you. (Tim nods)<\/p>\n

Tim and Mike sit back in their chairs as the reporters pack up their equipment. Tim then pulls out photos of his family to show the reporters. The first photo he shows is of him and his wife, Gloria Carter [Rodriguez], who was pregnant at the time, at the Temple\u2019s 1977 Golden Gate Bridge antisuicide ceremony.<\/em><\/p>\n

(Unintelligible talk between Tim and reporters)<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: (Holding up the photo) This picture\u2014(Unintelligible; Tim is pointing at Gloria in the photo)\u2014was taken when Jim Jones was speaking at a ceremony for\u2014 (Unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Say that?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: This picture was taken\u2014it was totally ironic by chance\u2014(Unintelligible)\u2014Jim Jones was speaking at some kind of dedication ceremony at the Golden Gate Bridge (Unintelligible)\u2014commit suicide.<\/p>\n

The camera shakes as it moves closer to Tim. Tim then pulls out more photos from his bag.<\/em><\/p>\n

The next photo Tim shows is of Mike Carter\u2019s wife, Jocelyn Carter [Brown], who is holding their baby, Kaywana. Tim then pulls out the previous photo of him and Gloria at the Golden Gate Bridge ceremony to show to the camera again, as Mike is heard in the background talking to a reporter. <\/em><\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: (Unintelligible; talking about the photos)<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: (Unintelligible; in the background talking to a reporter) \u2014Just basically looking for\u2014we were\u2014we were\u2014um\u2014<\/p>\n

The next photo Tim shows is of him, his wife Gloria, Mike, his wife Jocelyn, and both of their children\u2014Malcolm and Kaywana\u2014in Jonestown. <\/em><\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: (Pointing at the photo) This a picture taken of us uh\u2014my brother and his wife and his baby\u2014my wife\u2014my baby.<\/p>\n

Tim continues to show the previous photos to the camera as Mike is still heard talking to a reporter in the background. <\/em><\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: (Somewhat unintelligible; in the background) \u2014Maria has just given us\u2014(Unintelligible)\u2014Maria Katsaris\u2014pulled my brother and I to a room next to the radio room\u2014where I was working\u2014and asked us to carry a heavy package, you know. Help Prokes carry a\u00a0 heavy package\u2014go home, change your clothes, meet me at the West House, which is where Jim Jones lived. Uh\u2014went up there, met my\u2014Tim came up a little bit later. (Unintelligible)\u2014carry suitcases. Um for a time we\u2019ve gotten to the\u2014chicken house. It was too heavy to uh\u2014carry. When we looked inside we saw\u2014all this money\u2014we looked at it before a lot of money. And uh at this point, we just wanted to get out, get to the police, you know\u2014get it over with. And that\u2019s\u2014I had\u2014as I said earlier, had seen some people\u2014I mean around the pavilion\u2014(Camera shakes around then cuts)<\/p>\n

Camera zooms in on Tim leaning his head down. Mike is still heard in the background talking to a reporter.<\/em><\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: \u2014And that\u2019s all I saw\u2014that whole thing\u2014until I went back on Monday. (Unintelligible) \u2014Left them at the\u2014piggery. And uh Monday we went back there to\u2014 (Unintelligible).<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: (To Mike; first part of question unintelligible) \u2014What were the instructions?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: (Camera still focused on Tim) All that I heard was\u2014take it to the embassy. Uh later we found out it was to go to the Soviet Embassy.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: How did you find that out?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: When we looked into it we uh\u2014there was a letter in there. And\u2014<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: We dumped the money\u2014<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: We had dumped the money. (Camera pans to Mike) You know, we had this letter and it said (Camera pans to Mike)\u2014the Soviet Union\u2014it goes to the embassy in Georgetown.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Did you open the letter?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: No.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: What do you mean you dumped the money? You just opened the suitcase and dumped it on the ground?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: No, no, no.<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: The thing is man, we\u2019re running for our lives. (Camera zooms out) \u2014It would be ridiculous to be taking a suitcase down a road when you\u2019re trying\u2014trying to get out alive. Muddy road\u2014we slipped and fell a number of times\u2014even without it.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: So you dumped the whole suitcase or just dropped the money out of it and\u2014?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: We put the money into a bag\u2014into\u2014it was again, the chicken house and there was an empty chicken bag there and stuck the money in there. (Tim leans his head down)<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Left the money or?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Yeah we left the money.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: How much did this bag of money weigh? Any idea?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: To me it seemed approximately thirty-five to forty pounds.<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: I don\u2019t know (Unintelligible) It was a little ridiculous considering the circumstances. We\u2019re trying to get out\u2014<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: \u2014I mean, it seemed heavier\u2014I mean it seemed heavier because of the conditions I\u2019m sure.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Why do you think that the money was addressed to the Soviet Embassy?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: I don\u2019t know. I do not know. I honestly do not know.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Any guess?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: I can\u2019t even take a guess. I don\u2019t know. I don\u2019t even\u2014I don\u2019t know what they would do with it. I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: What\u2019s happened to that money?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: As far as I know it\u2019s in the custody of the government\u2014or the police. (Camera zooms in on Tim)<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: And what was your estimate of its contents?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: I had no idea how much money was in there.<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: We had no idea\u2014<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: No.<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: \u2014They told us\u2014they heard later from the reporters that it’s five-hundred-thousand dollars. We had no idea\u2014<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Yeah\u2014that\u2019s probably inaccurate. (Camera pans to Mike) Cause they\u2014we didn\u2019t count it or anything, we just\u2014you know, saw it. I heard it was something like five-hundred-thousand dollars so I guess they counted it and stuff.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Mike, did you go up anywhere near the pavilion during the poisoning ceremony?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: No, I didn\u2019t. (Shakes head)<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Thank you.<\/p>\n

(Camera zooms out)<\/p>\n

Harold Cordell<\/strong>: I think you guys are lying. (Camera pans over to Harold) I think you guys are lying. I don\u2019t think any guns were given to you. How did you get guns? We couldn\u2019t get guns, huh? Tell me that? Goddamn liars! You\u2019re lying, damnit! You saw what was going on there and you had access to guns, huh?<\/p>\n

Harold Cordell walks away as the camera pans back to Tim and Mike sitting back in their chairs.<\/em><\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: (Camera pans away from Mike and Tim and zooms in on Harold Cordell as he walks away) That is\u2014that\u2019s Harold Cordell. (Unintelligible) \u2014We were told to kill ourselves\u2014<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: (Camera pans back to Mike and Tim) \u2014Yeah, we were told to kill ourselves with the guns. That\u2019s what we were told to do.<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: If we were caught\u2014and this is what Maria\u2014if we were caught, we were told to kill ourselves. And\u2014which is totally insane. And you can check with police.[1] <\/sup><\/a> When we were in Kaituma, the gun I had uh\u2014it was a five round\u2014I don\u2019t know that much about guns\u2014shit, I don\u2019t even know how to shoot a gun. Um\u2014three of the bullets were out of the gun\u2014in my pocket\u2014and the other two were in it.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Did you shoot anyone at the camp?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: No, I have not shot anyone at the camp and I have never shot anyone in my life. I\u2019ve never shot a gun since I was in the sixth grade.<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: (Camera zooms in on Tim) And I did not shoot anyone at the camp and I have not shot anyone in my life to my knowledge, and I never will shoot anyone in my life.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Do you think you\u2019ll be facing any kind of charges here in Guyana?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: We don\u2019t know. I\u2019m sure we probably will be.<\/p>\n

Tape ends. <\/strong><\/p>\n

Note<\/strong><\/p>\n

[1]<\/sup><\/a> Tim\u2019s, Mike\u2019s, and Prokes\u2019 police statements \u2013 although with some parts redacted\u2014can be read here<\/a>.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Transcriber’s notes: The first and second parts of the interview may be viewed directly through the ABC VideoSource Archive here: ABCNEWS VideoSource (Search 20P708O for Part 1; 20P708P for Part 2) Alternatively, it may be viewed on YouTube here: 1978 SPECIAL REPORT: “TIM AND MIKE CARTER SPEAK OUT ON JONESTOWN” This interview \u2013 or rather, […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":8,"featured_media":0,"parent":123586,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-123600","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/123600","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/8"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=123600"}],"version-history":[{"count":6,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/123600\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":123606,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/123600\/revisions\/123606"}],"up":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/123586"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=123600"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}