{"id":123607,"date":"2023-07-24T16:27:24","date_gmt":"2023-07-24T23:27:24","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=123607"},"modified":"2023-07-24T16:31:45","modified_gmt":"2023-07-24T23:31:45","slug":"abc-news-jonestown-massacre-interview-with-mike-and-tim-carter-12-1-78-parts-2-3","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=123607","title":{"rendered":"ABC News: \u201cJonestown Massacre\u201d: Interview with Mike and Tim Carter, 12\/1\/78 (Parts 2 & 3)"},"content":{"rendered":"

Transcriber\u2019s notes:<\/strong> The second and third parts of the interview may be viewed directly through the ABC VideoSource Archive here: ABCNEWS<\/a> VideoSource<\/a> (Search 20P679B for Part 2; 20P679C for Part 3)<\/p>\n

Alternatively, the two parts may be viewed on YouTube here: \u00a01978-1982 SPECIAL REPORT: “JONESTOWN AFTERMATH”(PART I)<\/a> (1:16:03 – 1:59:22)<\/p>\n

Brothers Mike and Tim Carter, along with Mike Prokes, managed to escape the Jonestown mass suicides after being assigned the task of delivering suitcases filled with money to the Soviet Embassy in Georgetown. The interview takes place a few weeks following the events of November 18th and takes place at the Park Hotel in Georgetown, Guyana, and starts with a close-up of Jonestown survivor, Mike Carter. The second part of the interview begins with his response to a question from the first part of the interview in regards to what he witnessed after returning to Jonestown to assist with body identification.<\/p>\n

Some of the questions asked to the brothers include: what they saw during body identification; why their family members took the poison; if they would have taken the poison or not; why they joined Peoples Temple; if Jim Jones believed he was God; the instructions given to the two from Maria Katsaris; the money in the suitcases; the other survivors\u2019 fear of them; their own fear; discipline and punishments in the Temple; beatings, among other questions.<\/p>\n

PART 2 (21:12): <\/strong>Search 20P679B or watch here: 1978-1982 SPECIAL REPORT: “JONESTOWN AFTERMATH”(PART I)<\/a>\u00a0 (1:16:03 – 1:37:10)<\/p>\n

Mike Carter<\/strong>: I know\u2014when I went back to identify bodies, all the babies I had seen\u2014you know\u2014were next to their mothers, some next to their fathers. All of them had poison so I would imagine that the parents had taken them. By force or willingly, I\u2019m not sure.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: You believe that your wife poisoned your daughter?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Well, I believe she was holding her. I don\u2019t know if she willingly or (Unintelligible word) did it.\u00a0 That’s what I\u2019m saying. I\u2014I know that\u2014I mean it\u2019s obvious to me she had her arms around her. I mean, when I went back to find her.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Knowing Jonestown as you did, knowing your family\u2014why would your wife had done that?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: (Clicks tongue) I don’t think she had a choice. I don\u2019t think anybody there had a choice on whether they lived or died. They had to do what was the will of the\u2014of Jim Jones.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Why didn\u2019t they have a choice?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: (Clicks tongue) Well\u2014he um\u2014I\u2019m speaking of Jones now\u2014had the voice. I mean he made the decisions on what to do and obviously he thought that this was the end of Peoples Temple for some reason or another. Even though obviously before all\u2014even with the people who were leaving, Congressman Ryan still thought it was a success, and thought that Jonestown was uh\u2014you know\u2014it actually was\u2014I mean it had a lot of problems\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: What I\u2019m coming to is\u2014if Jim Jones stood up and said: let\u2019s everyone commit suicide and let\u2019s kill all the children, would your wife have poisoned your child because Jim Jones said so?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: It\u2019s a hard question. I think um\u2014she might of.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Why?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Because there was nothing else in life she had. Uh especially when we\u2019re like us who had grown up in the Temple from you know, being a teenager. You don\u2019t have anything else in life but what you\u2019re been taught in Peoples Temple which had been given. You\u2019re dependent on it. And uh\u2014you believed whatever you know, he would tell you was the truth cause you heard nothing else. And uh I believe a lot of people thought the same way. There was nothing else in life if you didn\u2019t have Jim Jones and Peoples Temple and if that was to fall apart, you might as well die.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: You believed that?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: I would say maybe up to Friday or Saturday I did, but I was you know\u2014(Smiles and shakes head) foolish because it was ridiculous. No, no, not now. Not at all.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: You were in Jonestown. You escaped the suicides because you were in a corner of the village too far away to know that everybody else was committing suicide.<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Well I didn\u2019t know that\u2014they\u2014know I had started, although we were allowed out to take a package somewhere. We didn\u2019t know that the suicides were starting until after we left (Glances to Tim) and my brother had told me.<\/p>\n

Tim Carter<\/strong>: It\u2019s totally by chance. I mean it\u2019s totally by chance.<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: And still to this day, (Smiling) I don\u2019t know why we were picked.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: If you had been closer to the central area when Jim Jones said: now it\u2019s time for all of us to die, would you have poisoned yourself?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: (Shakes head) I don\u2019t think so. I think they would have to fight me. (Nods)<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: And yet your wife did, and as far as you know, poisoned your child?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: (Nods) Yes. I think from the (Unintelligible) things. I think at first, from what I\u2019ve heard\u2014there was some people who didn\u2019t want to\u2014and this one woman I heard[1] <\/sup><\/a> stood up and they all shouted her down. And um\u2014so a lot of people at the first part thought you know, well it\u2019s going to be an easy death which he said it would be\u2014you know before. I mean an easy death, no pain, we\u2019d all meet somewhere\u2014 you know, God knows where. And uh\u2014here now, I heard that\u2014I think at first a lot of people would of done it willingly, you know, no problem at all. But I think that as things would go on, a lot more people would not want to, and a lot of people, you know, would hold back when doing it. You see what I\u2019m saying is as things gone on and people saw the horror of it\u2014people would less want to listen to Jones and think more for their own mind.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: You are how old?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: I\u2019m twenty.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: And you\u2019ve been a part of Peoples Temple for how long?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Uh a little\u2014just over five years.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: And you\u2019ve lived here in Guyana, at Jonestown, and in Georgetown for how\u2014<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Yes.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: \u2014Long?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Uh\u2014fourteen months in Guyana, nine of which were in Jonestown, five in Georgetown.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Let me ask you the question I asked Tim a minute ago. What was\u2014was there a need in your life that Peoples Temple met?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: A lot of them. I mean\u2014I had no mother essentially during most of my childhood. And um\u2014just my dad who was\u2014he\u2019s in his older years and\u2014you know, I was young\u2014and his alcoholism of course. So I essentially need um some parenthood or a father and a mother figure. I needed\u2014a lot more companionship cause I didn’t have a lot of friends, especially after moving to a new city. Didn\u2019t really have a lot of friends although I had some.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: So\u2014<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: And that was fulfilled when I\u2014almost very quickly when I came down.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: What\u2014what was fulfilled quickly? Tell me that again?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Friendship. Uh a lot of people who\u2014immediately were warm to me, which I had never felt before and\u2014 (Unintelligible) And that\u2019s one thing that really attracted me, you know. That so many people were so warm to me so quickly.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Why do you think they were so warm so quickly?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Well I mean at that point I think um\u2014people are in Jones\u2019\u2014you know, Peoples Temple where at that point you know, a lot closer to each other and were happy to see people join Peoples Temple. Um\u2014it was uh\u2014you were taught at that time to be friends with everyone but love everyone type-of-a-thing and people believed it. And I believed it.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Alright so I want to ask um\u2014once I get this running if we ever do. Did you believe\u2014um Don, would you pour the guy some coffee? Tim wanted some and you got it over there\u2014alright\u2014say when?<\/p>\n

(Off-screen assistant pours coffee)<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Thanks, I\u2019m good.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Mike\u2014um, did you believe that Jim Jones was God?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: (Smiles) Well, I uh\u2014had believed he had some sort of power.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: The truck went by and blocked out your answer.<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Yeah.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Did you believe that Jim Jones was God?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: I believed he had some sort of power. Uh\u2014you know it seemed to appall me to fake all the stuff he was doing you know\u2014and the Temple up there. But uh God? Not really. (Shakes head)<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: You think he was somehow divine?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Yeah. I believed he had some sort of um\u2014uh\u2014you know what I mean, just the way he had spoke you know\u2014in a way uh he presented himself. It seemed that way, yeah. (Nods)<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: That he was somehow in touch with God?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: I don\u2019t know in touch\u2014I mean (Laughs) uh as far as the religious aspect he was not (Shakes head) religious. I mean he spoke you know, some verses from the bible and so forth but anybody knows anything about Jim Jones he\u2019s not uh\u2014a religious person.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: What was he?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: He was an atheist. Uh\u2014although he\u2014he believed there was Jesus and everything. But he believed in more of uh equalitarian type of living.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: He was more interested in socialism? Marxism?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: More so, as we got down here it was more into the Marxist-Leninist, especially down here in Guyana. He used to call it equalitarianism and socialism in the states.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: He\u2014told you that he uh\u2014didn\u2019t believe in God?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: In a divine God that\u2014you know, he said: how can there be a god with three or four (Unintelligible).<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: (Unintelligible) God\u2014<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: You know, a god who loved all, loved everything. Yet there\u2019s starving babies throughout the world and suffering throughout the world. How can there be a loving god?<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Jim Jones\u2014told you\u2014he did not believe in God?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Yeah, in a loving god. That\u2019s all. (??)<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: You said he didn\u2019t believe in God. There was a loving god?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: (Nod) (Unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: He didn\u2019t believe there was a god figure, a thinking conscious entity?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Mhm. Yeah, that\u2019s correct.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Did that strike you strange for Reverend Jim Jones to say?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Well\u2014uh as you got to know People Temple, not really. (Smiles) As you know, Peoples Temple was just not an ordinary group. (Smiles again) Um\u2014and it\u2019s obviously more so now. Yeah, I mean\u2014it pretty quickly got to know, you know, that. I mean in a way it made sense. The way he would portray it as uh\u2014it always made sense to me at the time of course.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: How did Jim Jones say this? Was\u2014was he speaking in front of a platform?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Yeah.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>:\u2014Or was he talking to you?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: No\u2014he\u2019s speaking from a platform. He said it publicly.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Jim\u2014<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Anybody who\u2019s been in any service of Peoples Temple heard that.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: And\u2014<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: It\u2019s not a deep dark secret.<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: No. (Shakes head) Anybody\u2014anybody\u2014at the time practically who\u2019s been in any meeting with Peoples Temple would know that.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Well, then why did you\u2014if Jim Jones himself said that he didn\u2019t believe in god as most people understand god\u2014a thinking entity. What was it that made you think he had divine contact since he himself disputed\u2014any sort of divine entity?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: You mean contact with god? I never claimed he had\u2014I don\u2019t know maybe he did claim I don\u2019t know. But\u2014he um (Clears throat) just uh the\u2014he seemed to know a lot about what\u2014you know, he would say things would happen, a lot of the time, they would happen. I don\u2019t know if that was all rigged or what. There was just somethings that um\u2014about him that obviously he\u2014he\u2014I\u2019m sorry it\u2019s very hard. (Smiling) It’s been a long time.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Alright\u2014 let me ask you Tim, your wife\u2014 (Camera pans to Tim) did your wife murder your child?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: I don\u2019t know. I know the first thought that came into my mind was um\u2014 when I saw my baby dead in her arms was\u2014they\u2019ve murdered my son. Not that she\u2019d murder my son. I think my thought was Jim Jones had murdered my son. Uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: A mother\u2019s first instinct (Unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: \u2014Is to protect the child.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: And yet from what evidence we have\u2014there\u2019s reason to believe that (Tim smokes a cigarette) your wife poisoned your child?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: True.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Why would she have done that?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: I don\u2019t think she had any choice. Um\u2014that\u2019s a good question. That’s a question I\u2019ll probably ask myself for the rest of my life. Along with why I didn\u2019t get my wife and my son out of there sooner. That\u2019s guilt I\u2019ll have to live with for the rest of my life. From um\u2014I don\u2019t know (Shakes head)\u2014I just don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Would your wife have poisoned your child because Jim Jones said so?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: I can\u2019t believe that\u2014 cause I know\u2014I know how she felt about her son. And I cannot\u2014I can\u2019t believe that I know that um\u2014when I saw her kneeling on the ground, there was tears going down her cheeks, and um\u2014she was obviously in pain and grieving. Uh\u2014I leaned over and I started crying. I said: I love you so much\u2014I love you\u2014I love you and she uh\u2014started going into convulsions. I wasn\u2019t um\u2014 all I was thinking about at that point was\u2014I mean I had nothing else to live for. I mean my son was dead, my wife was dying and I had a way out of Jonestown and I took it. And why I was picked, I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Can you explain \u201cpicked\u201d?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Well, like I said Maria\u2014I was walking down the path by the pavilion and Maria Katsaris saw me and\u2014it was like she just said: come I want to talk to you. It wasn\u2019t like she was looking for me. I think\u2014I think was just absolutely totally\u2014just um\u2014just I don\u2019t know if you call it luck or\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: This was before the suicide ritual began?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: (Nods)<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: And she said what to you?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: She called my brother and I into a room next to the radio room and said: Prokes has a heavy suitcase to carry, would we help him carry it? And um\u2014I said yes.\u00a0 I\u2014I never conceived\u2014the entire time I was in Peoples Temple that Jim Jones would be mad enough to do anything like this\u2014cause he asked me several months ago when I was in Jonestown for one of\u2014 a short period of time\u2014he asked me a rhetorical question. He said: you know why don\u2019t we just all die tomorrow\u2014and there was no crisis going on or anything like that. Like I said it was a rhetorical question and I said no. He said: ’cause I do not have the moral right to take these babies’ lives, these seniors\u2019 lives, these people\u2019s lives. We came several thousand miles to live, not to die and I believed him. I took him at his word.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Why Guyana?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: I think it was a number of\u2014reasons. One, he\u2019d been in Guyana apparently several\u2014seventeen years ago. He liked the people. It was a third-world country\u2014um black country and the congregation\u2019s predominantly black. It was uh a government who\u2019s trying to start a socialist society. We had a socialist cooperative and um\u2014I\u2019m not sure why it (Unintelligible) but\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Going back to the money, Maria Katsaris, I think you said\u2014asked you to come in and get the suitcase and she said what?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Like I said when she asked us this question she just asked us if we would help Prokes deliver a heavy suitcase. She didn\u2019t say where or anything else and um\u2014I said yeah primarily because I wanted\u2014I think to get out of Jonestown at that time. If I had been thinking my wife and my son are going to die in the next five minutes, I would of been thinking something entirely different. I would be thinking on how to get them out and\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: You wanted out of Jonestown. Why?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Just the whole atmosphere that day was um\u2014I can\u2019t describe it. It was like the place was disintegrating. Literally disintegrating. It was a very eerie\u2014scary\u2014sort of feeling, all day long. It was just very between the\u2014I mean the um\u2014with the people leaving and families being broken up\u2014cause some of the families, part of the families stayed back, some go. There was a lot of crying, a lot of heavy emotion. One man was ready to leave and take his three kids[2] <\/sup><\/a>\u2014not even tell his wife. His wife didn\u2019t even know that he was leaving and uh\u2014a very strange\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: So you want uh\u2014you wanted to get out for, I mean to go up to Georgetown for an hour or week or whatever?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Just\u2014just\u2014whatever\u2014she said: do you want to go and I said yeah, I want to go but like I said\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: You didn\u2019t mean get away forever. You just meant\u2014<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: (Shakes head) No\u2014no\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>:\u2014Leave for the time being because there was a bad scene that day?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: No. If I wanted to get away forever I\u2019d\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: So\u2014so\u2014there was this suitcase and then what happened?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Well, you got to take things in sequence. She asked me to get my suitcase. She asked me if I had a suitcase. I said yeah and she said you better change your clothes. So I had\u2014some heavy shoes and a t-shirt. Went back to the cottage area and I changed my clothes and got my suitcase then I went to West House. And\u2014I gave the suitcase to a woman named Carolyn Layton. I didn\u2019t go into the house and her sister Annie Moore, who was one of Jones\u2019 nurse had just\u2014was coming up on the porch stair in front of the house and asked me to go find Maria and ask whether or not\u2014two of the children that were there should come to the pavilion or whether they should stay down there. So on the way, I met Maria actually about halfway towards the pavilion and I heard the word suicide. I didn\u2019t hear the context but I became\u2014 at that point I got a feeling of\u2014I don\u2019t know. I can\u2019t describe but it was just terror, dread, like oh my god, this couldn\u2019t be happening\u2014or what I\u2019m afraid might be happening can\u2019t be happening. And I went back\u2014started back down towards West House and I met Annie. And over Maria said: keep the children down there for now and I knew we\u2019d need some water but I think\u2014I don\u2019t know. I think I was being drawn towards the pavilion to see what was happening. When I got in the kitchen area I heard a lot of screaming and crying and uh\u2014a lot going on at that point when I thought about my wife and my son. I wanted to see what\u2019s happening. (Sighs)<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: So you went out and saw your child dead, your wife dying, you spoke to her and then\u2014<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: She didn\u2019t answer me.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: How were you able to flee at that point with the suitcase?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Well, like I said we\u2019d been asked to do something so apparently\u2014like I said we had a way out. So I did not see any armed guards but apparently there were armed guards. I guess I know they had been told to let us go. It was just entirely\u2014entirely uh something by chance.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: So you left with this suitcase and with who else?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: My brother (Glances over to Mike) and Mike Prokes.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: You didn\u2019t know what was in the suitcase?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Well, when I got back\u2014see while I was witnessing this nightmare because I didn\u2019t just see my wife and my son. I mean I saw other mothers\u2014kneeling, holding their babies and crying. I saw some bodies on the ground and I uh\u2014it was just a nightmare. I can\u2019t describe it. It was a nightmare. When I got back the suitcases had been filled with money and uh\u2014I don\u2019t know. I guess you told, Maria told Prokes to take it to the embassy but he says he doesn\u2019t remember if she said Soviet Embassy or not\u2014just take it to the embassy.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Why would Jones have wanted to take this money to the Soviet Embassy?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: It\u2019s a good question. I honestly do not know.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: And the Soviet Embassy supplied the money?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: (Unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Tape cuts.<\/strong><\/p>\n

PART 3 (22:21):<\/strong> Search 20P679C on ABCVideo Source or watch here: 1978-1982 SPECIAL REPORT: “JONESTOWN AFTERMATH”(PART I)<\/a>(1:37:11 – 1:59:22)<\/p>\n

This interview continues from Part 2; however, there appears to be footage cut between the parts. The third part of the interview begins with Tim Carter explaining the instructions he and Mike were given in Jonestown by Temple treasurer and secretary, Maria Katsaris.<\/em><\/p>\n

Tim Carter<\/strong>: He [Mike Carter], Prokes and him were given guns. We were told to kill ourselves if we got caught.<\/p>\n

Mike Carter<\/strong>: (Off-camera) \u2014And just to make sure we didn\u2019t (Heh) do anything. (Camera cuts and pans to Mike)\u2014in this case we had no (Unintelligible) somebody and they started going out and heard that we saw dropped the suitcase, or something you know (??).<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: How did you two guys link up anyway?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Through Maria [Katsaris].<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: She got?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: When I came back down at West House she was there. And Prokes was already there.<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: I see\u2014I see, yeah?<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: And what was this about guns?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: We had (Yawns)\u2014Maria had given me and Prokes guns to kill ourselves if we were caught. And uh you know, at that point I was like woman, you are crazy thinking I\u2019m going to kill myself. (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: You gave it to them (??).<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: So uh\u2014(Smiling)<\/p>\n

Cameraman<\/strong>: (Off-camera) We\u2019re rolling, testing. Go ahead.<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: So I went\u2014I think almost the first place we stopped, you know, to bury the money. I had taken\u2014I had five rounds.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Why did you stop to bury money?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Because it was getting too heavy and\u2014<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: At that point we were running for our lives. We\u2019re trying to get out of there.<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: You see\u2014it just had just rained.<\/p>\n

(Camera pans to Tim)<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: See, I told him after we got back down and we had left I said people starting to die back there and apparently Maria told Prokes they\u2019re gone after the truck to get Ryan and so\u2014 I mean we knew that\u2014 somebody was on the loose, you know. I mean somebody\u2014Peoples Temple members were on the loose and also it was a matter of survival at that point.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: So you did what?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: I said it was a matter of survival at that point.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: So you did what?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: So we ran with like I said with the suitcase. It was heavy.\u00a0 It was awkward. We tried to unload some of the money to make it lighter to\u2014it\u2019s not easy running through the mud with a suitcase and everything else at the same time you\u2019re trying to run for your life. And when we got to the um\u2014piggery\u2014we dumped the rest of the money and then went to Port Kaituma. And uh\u2014we kept some of the money on us and they kept the guns for two reasons. One, the guns incase we ran into any Temple members who were trying to shoot people up\u2014to defend ourselves and the money incase we ran into any Guyanese or somebody on the way who would impair our progress to try to buy them off so we could (Unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Somebody thought that Peoples Temple members might try to shoot you?<\/p>\n

(Tim lights a cigarette and the camera pans to Mike)<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: You know, we had heard that these guys had gone after Ryan. So we didn\u2019t know what to think.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: What did you hear about that?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: You have to ask Prokes, he\u2019d know.<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Just what Mike [Prokes] had told us that you know. They had gone after Ryan, you know.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Do you have any way of knowing whether or not if Jones directed them to do that?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: I have no idea but I would\u2014<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: I don\u2019t know. I can\u2019t believe they did it on their own but I don\u2019t know. I mean that’s a question\u2014 (Camera pans to Tim) that\u2019s a good question.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: How many people was it that went after Ryan?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: I don\u2019t know. I mean I read in newspaper accounts that there were six or seven, but I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Do you know who the people were who went after Ryan?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Just what I read in the newspapers. That\u2019s all.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: When\u2014you first came here\u2014to this hotel\u2014many of the survivors from Jonestown\u2014were afraid of you?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: That\u2019s right. We were afraid of them. (Smile)<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: They said you were a part of Jones\u2019 inner group.<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Not true.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: You\u2019ve been given guns (Tim nods) by Jones\u2019 inner group?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Yeah right. To kill ourselves if we were caught. That were the instructions. I mean it was\u2014I think\u2014 I mean that\u2019s all it resolved (??). We understood their paranoia and I don\u2019t think they understood. They didn\u2019t know the circumstances surroundings our\u2014believing our\u2014and um I mean it was an understandable reaction I think on their part and I think they\u2019re came to realize we were as afraid of them as they were of us.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Why were you afraid of them?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Well for a number of reasons. We had been considered leadership. We represented Jim Jones to them\u2014uh mainly cause there was twenty of them. And you know, one of them said I can\u2019t guarantee that one of these people won\u2019t try to strangle you in the middle of the night. I mean there\u2019s only three of us, there\u2019s twenty of them right? So, I mean it\u2019s another reason. And uh\u2014we didn\u2019t want any trouble at all. Like I said we wanted just to survive and they were saying a lot of outrageous things at the time. I mean it\u2019s been worked out. I think it was just a trauma. I mean everybody\u2019s been through a trauma and it was a sudden\u2014we were thrown together totally. We asked\u2014first not to come to this hotel because they were here and we knew that they were paranoid of us and we didn\u2019t want to upset them. So they brought us here anyway. Then we asked once we got to the desk: do not take us on the same floor where they are, please, because we do not want to upset them. So not only did they take us to the same floor, they took us right into the bedroom which immediately caused, you know, a panic reaction on their part and it was just a matter of talking things out. But that conflict has been resolved. I mean, there\u2019s no tension. We\u2019re all talking with each other.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Did you intend to harm anyone?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: I do not intend to harm anyone. I mean I was in Vietnam. I do not believe in violence. I\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Do you have any knowledge of a plan for (Tim smokes cigarette) Peoples Temple survivors to\u2014 harm other people?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: No. I think that\u2019s just a lot of bunk. I mean, I think Jones used to talk a lot of that I think to keep fear in people\u2019s hearts, you know. But I can say I am as afraid for my life right now I think as anybody is.<\/p>\n

(Camera pans to Mike)<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: It\u2019s a way of keeping people in the Temple. You know the fear that if you left you would have this grave (??) hit squad going\u00a0 after you or whatever, you know. But I think it was he\u2019s para\u2014I mean you know, his paranoia showed here when we saw each other that you know, that afternoon. We\u2019re both paranoid of each other thinking you know\u2014you know they thought we were going after them and we thought you know, since we represented that, that they would go after us and I\u2019m so afraid in the States you know. You know maybe there really is. I\u2014I agree with Tim I think there\u2019s this thing he had you know\u2014cause he didn\u2019t trust people\u2014at all.<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Didn\u2019t trust anybody. He said that he didn\u2019t trust anybody. (Mike shakes head)<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: What kind of a\u2014an organization did you think you were a part of living here in Guyana\u2014 working for a man who said if\u2014you ever want out I\u2019ve got a hit squad that will kill you.<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Hm\u2014 (Thinking)<\/p>\n

(Camera pans to Tim)<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Well one thing I didn\u2019t believe in a lot of what Jim Jones said\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: But what do you think about the fact that here\u2019s this man that invited you to come to Guyana and live and build a better world and he says: and if you don\u2019t like it here anymore, I\u2019ll see to it that you\u2019re assassinated when you leave. Now what did you think about that?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Like I said I thought it was a lot of bunk. I thought it was\u2014intimidation. Um\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: But why\u2014why would this man be intimidating you and why would you continue to participate in a community (Tim smokes a cigarette)\u2014the leader of whom is trying to intimidate you?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: You see, that’s a very complex question. I mean it\u2019s a good question. It\u2019s a rational question. But like I said, there\u2019s a lot of things that enter into it. You could talk about mind control. You could talk about um\u2014I was here because my wife and son were here. And um\u2014I was not just going to abandon my son.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Why couldn\u2019t you just all get up and leave and say: hey, this guy is talking about assassinating us if we want to leave. I don\u2019t\u2014<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Well, you see he kept families apart. Like I said I wasn\u2019t going to leave without my wife or\u00a0 my son. When I was in Georgetown, my wife and son were never here. It was a\u2014he divided and conquered. He deliberately kept families apart from each other just so that kind of thing wouldn\u2019t happen.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: There were strange forms of brutality used against children who had misbehaved. We understand that they were tied up, left in the jungle, that they were dropped down into wells until they screamed that (Tim smokes cigarette) they would be good and not do whatever (Tim appears to wave hand) it was that Jim Jones didn\u2019t like. And parents stood by\u2014and let this kind of thing be done to their children.<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: (Nods) That\u2019s true. I said\u2014your questions are rational but you\u2019re talking about an irrational situation and the word mind control is not just um\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: But what was going on in your mind?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: I didn\u2019t believe it. You know what I actually thought was\u2014I knew in San Francisco that\u2014what they would do sometimes is they would take a child off into a room and say alright, when you go out, scream and yell and everything else for effect you know. And\u2014and I honestly that\u2019s what I thought was being done\u2014that they were taking these children away and they were coming back screaming and yelling but\u2014they had told them to do that for effect on you know, the other children. I didn\u2019t honestly believe that kind of brutality and\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Didn\u2019t this all sound kind of freaky to you?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: (Thinking) Sound freaky?<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Yeah, I mean here you are\u2014<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: I told you what\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Putting yourself and your family into an organization in which people are encouraged to deceive other members of the group for whatever effect it was taking them off and pretending to torture them and bringing them back so that they\u2019d scream and make other people think they\u2019d been tortured.<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: You got to remember\u2014you\u2019re\u2014 you’re not thinking\u2014thinking rationally. Your mind has been controlled. You\u2019ve been um\u2014I say it\u2019s a very complex question.<\/p>\n

(Camera pans to Mike)<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: We were made to believe that it\u2019s the right thing to do. You know, you see what I\u2019m saying.<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: You would have to talk to\u2014there\u2019s a psychiatrist here that\u2019s a specialist in cults and he can answer your question.[3] <\/sup><\/a><\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: But wait, what was Mike going to say?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: I\u2019m just saying we were made to believe that that\u2019s the right way to do, you know. Made to believe that\u2014that\u2019s the right type of uh you know, discipline\u2014for the children. I mean there were some kids who\u2014who were I mean, obviously problem children, you know from their backgrounds\u2014whatever they were. And just when\u2014obey the rules of, you know, stay into\u2014<\/p>\n

(Camera pans to Tim)<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: You say isn\u2019t that sort of freaky behavior but child beating is one of the biggest crimes in the United States right now. You know what goes on in prisons in the United States?<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Yeah, but you didn\u2019t beat your child?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: No, I didn\u2019t beat my child. I never spanked my child.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: But you were willing to let Jim Jones beat your child?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Well, I don\u2019t know. That situation never arose. My son was only fifteen months old.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: But you were willing to let Jim Jones beat other children?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: One thing is that\u2014since May\u2014all physical violence had stopped. There was no more beatings. There was no more of that sort of thing\u2014well he [Mike ]can tell you, he was there.<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Yeah.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Why did you continue to participate in a\u00a0 community in which child beating and\u00a0 psychological torture if you will\u2014<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Can you please\u2014one thing you need to understand (Camera pans to Mike)\u2014all this time that was our whole life. I\u2019ve\u2014I\u2019ve seen exaggerations in this week\u2019s Newsweek on some of the things that did happened. I mean some things did happen but like I said\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: But what happened that you saw? What did you see happen?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: The last\u2014beating I had seen or\u2014you know, like you say was a guy who had molested children[4] <\/sup><\/a> of twelve years under and he was I mean\u2014in that\u2014one of these children\u2014<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: That particular person had a history of molesting children and he had been given\u2014(<\/strong>Camera pans to Tim) he had been talked to, he had been given psychiatric counseling, he had been\u2014I wasn\u2019t there when it happened but I mean that was a last resort.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: From what we read, those of you who were moving in Jonestown would of assembled in a group and\u2014and you would see people be punished. Supposedly one woman who had sex with somebody she wasn\u2019t supposed to was forced to have sex with somebody else\u2014<\/p>\n

(Camera pans to Mike)<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Can I say that is a lie? Cause I mean maybe it happened when I was in Georgetown but I never saw that.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: What did you see? What kinds of things?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Like I said I\u2019m telling you now about that one guy who was molesting children. He had a history of doing it and then what happened is that one child had molested an even younger child. One of the twelve or eleven-year-olds had molested a younger child. In fact one of my cousins. And\u2014you know a couple of guys got really upset and went up and hit him, you know. And a couple more people hit him and uh\u2014he was just giving all these excuses why he had no way to control himself and things like that and it wasn\u2019t like every single person who was brought up you know for whatever things they\u2019ve done wrong were beat. You know I think (Unintelligible)\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Did\u2014did you see people who were small forced to box people who were big? We heard about that.<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: In San Francisco. That happened in San Francisco, yeah.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: What did you think about that?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Hm.<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: I thought it was a way of disciplining\u2014<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Yeah.<\/p>\n

(Camera pans to Tim)<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: But\u2014parents signed legal consent forms before any of that happened. Even some people who were out of the organization or been out for a long time signed consent forms. Like you\u2014you\u2019re talking about something\u2014you\u2019re asking rational questions and you\u2019re talking about an irrational situation.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: What was in your mind at the time?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: I thought it was a form of structure that was necessary.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Beating?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: You say beating? Have you ever spanked your child?<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: (Whispering) I don\u2019t have a child.<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: You don\u2019t have a child? Well I got spanked when I was a son. I\u2019d like to ask any parent\u2014I\u2019d like to know\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: We\u2019re not talking about spanking, we\u2019re talking about\u2014<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: (Unintelligible; both the Reporter and Tim are speaking)\u2014You\u2019re talking about spanking. You\u2019re talking about spanking. But when it comes out in the media, I don\u2019t want to be put in a role of trying to defend this because I don\u2019t agree with it but still, you\u2019re asking a question that\u2019s trying to put us on the spot.\u00a0 But when you\u2019re talking about spanking\u2014children spanked their parents. Child beating is\u2014is\u2014\u00a0 one of the worst crimes that is going on in the United States. Not just in the United States but I mean all over the world. But it manifests itself a lot in the United States.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: You saw\u2014in San Francisco, you saw\u2014people who had violated some rule or other of Jim Jones, put into a boxing ring and forced to box somebody that they had no chance against?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Well\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: They were in a fight, beaten up by this other guy\u2014<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Mhm.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: And you saw that?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Mhm. I saw that and so did several thousand other people.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: And you thought that was okay?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Yeah.<\/p>\n

(Camera pans to Mike)<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: That was maybe that might change a person because a person who\u2019s so hard-headed to\u2014you know, just\u2014I mean usually\u2014I mean I don\u2019t know it went\u2014different times, different things would happen. But the\u2014you know\u2014it was a way to um\u2014at that time is what I thought it was a way to make structure for a person cause nothing else went through their heads and maybe that might go through their head.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: And what has this person done that was an appropriate punishment?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Violence of some sort\u2014(Unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: One person had stolen something once from a store.<\/p>\n

(Camera pans to Tim)<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: So in the Peoples Temple\u2014whatever punishment Jim Jones decided was appropriate for the crime\u2014(Tim lights a cigarette) you thought was okay?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: You didn\u2019t argue with the leader.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: So if Jim Jones wanted to beat somebody up?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: I mean if you had an argument with the leader then you took your argument to him. You never argued publically. I had a lot of complaints and hostilities and arguments that I took (Camera glitches) to him.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: You watched Jim Jones supervising the beating of children, the beating of people, the uh dropping of children into well and forced to scream\u2014<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: I never saw any children\u2014(Unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: I never saw that either.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: You didn\u2019t see that?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: No.<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Like I told you what I thought was happening.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Oh that\u2019s right, I\u2019m sorry you did. But you thought all of these were appropriate if Jones felt that this was the way to achieve whatever he wanted and if it would work, that was the only thing that mattered to you\u2014would the punishment accomplish the purpose?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Generally yeah.<\/p>\n

(Camera pans to Mike)<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Can I just ask a\u2014I mean\u2014one thing that he especially in the States would say a lot\u2014I mean which would you rather have\u2014you know us discipling\u2014you know, this organization discipling your children or juvenile hall.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: So any discipline that Jim Jones decided was good for your child was okay with you?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: (Laughs) While my child wasn\u2019t quite old enough to be uh\u2014 be disciplined. I mean that being a baby. But um\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: We understand some babies were spanked.<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: (Laughs) I\u2019ve never seen it. I mean I don\u2019t know what you consider to be\u2014but I\u2019ve never seen it.<\/p>\n

(Camera pans to Tim)<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: You know you say something like this\u2014I don\u2019t want to be in the position of defending\u2014Jim Jones or that\u2014I mean you ask misleading questions. We understand some babies were spanked, I don\u2019t know if any parent in America hasn\u2019t spanked their child one time I mean if\u2014if your father\u2014of your child\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: You don\u2019t spank\u2014<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: If your child\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: \u2014If your child is a few months old?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: No, no, no. I never saw any child a few months old spanked. I never\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: So, so the only discipline you saw and that you had first-hand knowledge of, was the beating in San Francisco of someone who had stolen something?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Yeah and public confrontation. I mean the thing that was used most was humiliation, not beatings. It was public humiliation.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Like what?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Well you get brought up front of the entire congregation for whatever it is you might of done\u2014why did you do this\u2014it was peer pressure sort of thing. It\u2019s a thing that\u2019s used in\u2014in\u00a0 most uh\u2014well I know it\u2019s used in China. I\u2019ve never been to China but from what I\u2019ve read it\u2019s used in China where a person is humiliated in front of the community and because of that it’s a peer pressure\u2014sort of thing. It\u2019s called group catharsis. Group therapy.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: I understand\u2014I understand that women used to stand up and talk about having sex with Jim Jones and how great it was.<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Mhm. (Nods)<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: You saw that?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Mhm. (Nods)<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: You were in the audience?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Yeah.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: And women stood up?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Well most of it was done in\u2014at least in the States. I never saw it here in Guyana. But I wasn\u2019t in Jonestown that much. In the States it was mostly done in a group called the Planning Commission, which was a group of about hundred-twenty people who made most of the business decisions for the organization. See Jones emasculated\u2014he had to maintain the image of the leader. The leader had to be the great lover\u2014the best lover, you know. And um for the most part these people were (Unintelligible) told what to say. You know I mean I don’t have any first-hand knowledge of what he was like because I never went to bed with the man. Uh but it\u2014it was all part of a show. It was all part of a stage.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: But what did you think when you were a party of a group and you\u2019re all around and women are standing up and saying I had uh sex with Jim Jones and it was the best sex I ever had. And did you think this was the way to run an organization? (Tim smokes a cigarette)<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Well I understood from the point that the leader has to seem\u2014there\u2019s always competition between males, you know. And that\u2019s one way of emasculating the males.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: If it made Jim Jones\u2014if it made Jim Jones look bigger, it was okay with you?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: (Nods) Yeah. I thought the image of the leader should be maintained whether or not I believed it, you know. It was irrelevant.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Whether or not you believed the sex had really taken place you thought?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Or whether or not it was all that you know, good.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: You thought it was a good thing that\u2014this sort of thing was being perpetuated? (Camera glitches)<\/p>\n

(Camera pans to Mike)<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: Can I just say one thing before we go? I mean and you must understand that\u2019s what we did believe. We\u2019re telling you what we\u2019re thinking that\u2014(Unintelligible saying from Tim) so I don\u2019t want this used against cause you know, obviously we were fools to stay in that organization. I realize it more I was a fool. And I hope none of this is going to be held against us. I mean I\u2019m sure it will follow us\u2014<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: It will be.<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: \u2014For the rest of our lives, you know.<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: It will be. Don\u2019t worry it will be.<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: But I mean cause we’re going to have to start a change somewhere and unfortunately it had to start now.\u00a0 But that\u2019s you know, that\u2019s just unfortunate the way it goes.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: (Muffled) What would you like to\u2014what would you like to add to anything that I\u2019ve asked you that you think is important?<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: (Laughs) There\u2019s so much to this story of Peoples Temple. I mean it\u2019s uh\u2014it\u2019s as much of a dream as a nightmare in some sense you know. I\u2014<\/p>\n

(Camera pans to Tim)<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>:\u00a0 I think what happened was monstrous. It was\u2014a horror\u2014I don\u2019t think there\u2019s any words that in the English language to\u2014describe the um\u2014the crime that took place in Jonestown and I\u2019ll have guilt for the rest of my life that I didn\u2019t do something to stop it\u2014 or maybe I could of.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: And yet as you try now to understand the way you were (Tim nods) thinking, the way you were feeling at that time\u2014<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: Mhm.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: You didn\u2019t try to stop it\u2014because?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: See\u2014it\u2019s a very complex thing. Again you did know that there were these rehearsals. I never went through one and the last time somebody left\u2014when uh Debbie Layton left\u2014I guess I wasn\u2019t there, but I guess they had a White Night. I had a wife and a son who I was concerned about. No way to get them out. And then you always had the specter of\u2014of if you left\u2014what happened, if what did happened, what if that happened, then you\u2019d be responsible for all these people. It was a way of controlling a person. (Camera glitches) So you had a lot of\u2014I mean continual conflict going on. I mean I think while if I leave\u2014first I wouldn\u2019t of left without my son and my wife, I mean to begin with. If I\u2019d ever had the chance I would of. But then after that you think while what happens if you\u2019re the one that triggers this insanity that did happen.<\/p>\n

Reporter<\/strong>: Did you expect this thing to happen?<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: No I didn\u2019t. Like I said if I did I would of gotten my wife and my son out of there a long\u2014<\/p>\n

Mike<\/strong>: I\u2019d never thought. I\u2019d never thought\u2014<\/p>\n

Tim<\/strong>: You see you have to understand the condition that your mind is in. It\u2014it\u2019s a fear\u2014it\u2019s a fear mechanism that\u2019s used to keep people in place.<\/p>\n

Tape ends.<\/strong><\/p>\n

Notes<\/strong><\/p>\n

[1]<\/sup><\/a> Mike is most likely referring to Jonestown resident Christine Miller, who can be heard on tape Q042 arguing against Jim Jones and his decision to commit mass suicide.<\/p>\n

[2]<\/sup><\/a> Tim is likely referring to the argument between Bonnie and Al Simon. Al wished to leave Jonestown with their three children and upon discovering her husband\u2019s decision to leave, an argument ensued between the couple. Ultimately, the entire family would remain in Jonestown during its final day.<\/p>\n

[3]<\/sup><\/a> Tim is possibly referring to Guyanese psychiatrist Dr. Hardat Sukhdeo, a proclaimed \u201ccult\u201d specialist who arrived in Georgetown in the days following November 18th to personally counsel and meet with survivors.<\/p>\n

[4]<\/sup><\/a> Mike is potentially referring to Jonestown resident Peter Wotherspoon, who was supposedly found to be a pedophile and allegedly sexually molested children in Jonestown.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Transcriber\u2019s notes: The second and third parts of the interview may be viewed directly through the ABC VideoSource Archive here: ABCNEWS VideoSource (Search 20P679B for Part 2; 20P679C for Part 3) Alternatively, the two parts may be viewed on YouTube here: \u00a01978-1982 SPECIAL REPORT: “JONESTOWN AFTERMATH”(PART I) (1:16:03 – 1:59:22) Brothers Mike and Tim Carter, […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":8,"featured_media":0,"parent":123586,"menu_order":1,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-123607","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/123607","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/8"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=123607"}],"version-history":[{"count":3,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/123607\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":123610,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/123607\/revisions\/123610"}],"up":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/123586"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=123607"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}