pp-8-o-1 \u2013 o-16<\/p>\n
[Document starts with conversation underway; pages could be missing]<\/p>\n
[Jones:]<\/strong> In view of the opposition (the only thing I thought about is if the government wants to save face and save the agricultural mission, we put them in a hell of a spot there.)<\/p>\n Stoen:<\/strong> Why don\u2019t we just have Paula [Adams] ask for an honest statement from the government?<\/p>\n Jones:<\/strong> We won\u2019t know that until Thursday. But if Thursday, it is no, we have been thrown out of the country. I\u2019m afraid that when you get all the information that I\u2019ve had and reviewed all these tapes here, you would come up with the same conclusion that I had that we are in a bedevilment. Say, of course, upon the urging of the people and the government we would reconsider. That puts the government and the spot of having to (unintelligible). That\u2019s what I was trying to do is get people. Of course, upon request of the people, the government and their people, if it\u2019s the government and the people\u2019s wishes we continue in any role, define that role, write us. Can it be something like that? Define the role you would like us to work in\u2013 or no role. We would be glad to turn over the many acres that we have already planted and resign our\u2013 you know, we can do them something there. We don\u2019t have to promise them that much, we can say we will even help an ecumenical group do it. It doesn\u2019t make any difference to us. Our purpose is to get a job done. No way we will do anything and clearly, clearly indicate that we have no desire to enhance our position. And certainly no thought of gaining any acreage. It has been a very arduous task for us. A task we have enjoyed, but it requires our constant work from sun up to sun down, developing a wide variety of crops that are growing. I don\u2019t know what, I think there are 30 crops, but say a numerous many crops, many different crops that are growing successfully, crops that have never grown in this part of the world. And give some quote about us feeding and say our purpose. Certainly we love the multiethnic society that you have here. The multiethnic society. And some of our people were considering living here. We would be glad to take a polygraph test to show our motive.<\/p>\n Stoen:<\/strong> That commits you, though. I\u2019d stay away from that.<\/p>\n Jones:<\/strong> We\u2019re willing to go to any length to prove or to get a job done and if we are a source of contention as a church, or our leader, or any of our ministers, we will gladly send aid to some other group trying to achieve it, continue it from abroad or continue from within, but other than unless we are urged. We have in no way been asked to give up our agricultural mission by anyone. But we feel that all things work together for good (that\u2019s a pat and stupid phrase. They are so damned religious down there.) For them that love God that we will find a purpose unless out of this entire experience having done no wrong, attempted to do so much good, we cannot understand what the problem is. If we had been a (illegible) group coming in, taking one penny of Guyanese money, we could easily understand if we were trying to dominate (unintelligible) or control land. The government had made it very clear that Guyanese (that will get the government\u2019s face too) Nationals must control the corporation.<\/p>\n Stoen:<\/strong> That way we\u2019re giving them the ball game. Is there any chance that they would come out with an affirmative statement on Thursday?<\/p>\n Jones:<\/strong> I doubt it. They own the paper. They own the Guyana Graphic<\/em>. You can ask [Eugene] Chaikin\u2013 If you sue the paper, it means suing the government. Well, this is not a problem between you and the government, it\u2019s between you and the churches, and you work that out. Or something to that effect, you resolve it. In the first place, they\u2019re scared to death of the churches, they\u2019re mean as hell. I\u2019d hate to think if we had preached what we really believe about humanist theology and fundamentalist theology, we would have been up the proverbial creek. We preached a gentle sermon about this wonderful Catholic Church opening their doors and the ecumenical spirit, we wanted to help all churches. I couldn\u2019t have been more modest. And they are mean as hell. I ate humble pie. Gave glory to Christ. Nothing I do. In a way we\u2019re safe there bring out all those thousands of people. These people are threatened, mean as hell that we\u2019d get 70 people in their meeting and I brought the masses out. As one person said, Chaikin will know, he has a persuasive ability to influence the masses. Some comment about me bringing in\u2013 I\u2019d have them follow me. It may be that they\u2019re scared to death of that. I had told them that we are democratic. It may be that\u2013 I\u2019m afraid of what to say to these people now. We could say some praise of\u2013 Chaikin could say some praise, but we can\u2019t talk about these posters they have in the buses, the government-owned buses. Places, well, I don\u2019t know\u2013 underground. Make it clear that we are closer to their philosophies\u2013 I don\u2019t know how we can make it more supportive to these people. They don\u2019t trust us.<\/p>\n Stoen:<\/strong> I think we\u2019ve tried. I think we\u2019ve done everything and if we did anymore within a possibilities in respect to the opposing regime if and when it gets in.<\/p>\n Jones:<\/strong> I was thinking privately to do this, privately.<\/p>\n Stoen:<\/strong> My feeling is\u2013<\/p>\n Jones:<\/strong> I played it very, very safe and very much conservative, like I am. I praised America, not praised America, but I just didn\u2019t speak against my country, and I said I\u2019m a Democrat. Which may not be (unintelligible) enough for them. They\u2019re very chummy with some other group. But they are definitely anti-Soviet. Supposed to be. Well, I don\u2019t know, maybe they are all a bunch of communists together under the rug. What do you think of privately saying, well, if a person is ambitious. I don\u2019t think we should get in that ball game, you can\u2019t get it over the phone in the first place. Somebody is going to have to go down there and finally you\u2019ll end up consulting back and forth. If you can get in that ball game I don\u2019t believe that anybody can impute into another person who\u2019s not in themselves. So, I\u2019m there to help those people help our people. They\u2019re not going to see that and they are going to see me as maybe a CIA emissary. Who knows what the hell they see. We shouldn\u2019t have been in a public damned meeting. However, I think we would have run into this damned\u2013 I never saw such a nasty nationalism. And some of these things surfaced, and we didn\u2019t know anything about a Baptist thrown out because he wouldn\u2019t criticize the Reynolds [Aluminum]\u2013 didn\u2019t say anything in favor of Reynolds being taken over by the government. They just threw him out. I think we were playing a risky game. Down the road we run into trouble with these nationalists. I think that the world is developing a sense of nationalism and that nobody is going to fit in unless they are born in that country. That\u2019s what I\u2019m rudely awakening to.<\/p>\n Stoen:<\/strong> Well, you may be right. This may be the lesson that we needed because we\u2019ve been (unintelligible).<\/p>\n Jones:<\/strong> But I think it\u2019s obvious that all that flak that\u2019s come in, Yankee cartoons and nonsense, there is a latent hostility to Yankees in that land, yet they speak well of America, but somebody is trying to turn them against America. It\u2019s contradictory. They used to a year ago not say anything against America. The people are pro-America in their conversation. They\u2019re pro, and the government has turned against, and they feel that with all internal difficulties\u2013<\/p>\n Stoen:<\/strong> Well, I guess what my lawyer instincts say to me, before we burn the bridge, we ought to try and do everything behind the scenes the best way we can there.<\/p>\n Jones:<\/strong> Well, I have done that. We have [Guyanese lawyer Clarence] Hughes but I don\u2019t know that he is the best.<\/p>\n Stoen:<\/strong> Well, I think we ought to ask for the best, but I don\u2019t like the idea of Chaikin talking to an ant [?] because he alienates people more than he helps them. He alienates everybody. I don\u2019t trust Chaikin talking to people and leaving them with a favorable impression or what he represents.<\/p>\n Jones:<\/strong> What are you going to do? You better go then.<\/p>\n Stoen:<\/strong> Well, I kind of feel I should.<\/p>\n Jones:<\/strong> Well then, I better go ahead and talk to Hallihan [Vincent Hallinan, SF attorney sometimes used by Peoples Temple], but I don\u2019t know what kind of questions to ask Hallihan. Did you make an appointment with him.<\/p>\n Stoen:<\/strong> Well, I called the secretary today and said I would call back later today after he comes in to set a time.<\/p>\n Jones:<\/strong> The only thing I think is hours is all we have.<\/p>\n Stoen:<\/strong> I would like some time to\u2013<\/p>\n Jones:<\/strong> We haven\u2019t got that much time. That\u2019s the problem. You\u2019re waiting for time you haven\u2019t got. Thursday we are going to get the news. And the logical way is that we will get bad news. A government that cannot stop its own paper\u2013<\/p>\n Stoen:<\/strong> Will we get this ad in the press on Wednesday?<\/p>\n Jones:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n Stoen:<\/strong> How much lead time do they need?<\/p>\n Jones:<\/strong> The day before.<\/p>\n Stoen:<\/strong> I would like tonight to work on it is what I\u2019m saying. Jean [Brown] asked me to set up a situation whereby Paula calls every morning at 9:00 and every evening at 6:00 by code.<\/p>\n Jones:<\/strong> Yes, but tell them not to change because I told them to call at 2:00 our time Thursday morning. Tell them to be sure and call at 2:00 our time Thursday morning. It would be 6:00 their time. Church service will be over then Wednesday night in other words. Wait, it won\u2019t do any good to call Wednesday, they won\u2019t know until Thursday. Just tell them to follow the code. United States.<\/p>\n Stoen:<\/strong> On this ad, you want me to give it back again or do you want me to edit it or what do you want me to do?<\/p>\n Jones:<\/strong>\u00a0 Edit it only where I think we agreed. Were editing saying that we have decided. Our bishop left it up to the trustees. And the trustee board decided. Our bishops said that the trustees should decide. The trustees decided. Of course we don\u2019t want to cause any difficulties with the beautiful people of Guyana or if you wish us to continue to serve in any way, please let us know. That sort of thing.<\/p>\n Stoen:<\/strong> That\u2019s better, I\u2019m more happy with that because it gets them off the hook a little.<\/p>\n Jones:<\/strong> It also keeps us from being thrown out of the country. Say we want to serve in any capacity. We are deeply committed in the states to feeding, clothing, housing people and equally so here. But we want a job done, we are not seeking any glory. We were informed of your rule about Guyanese control of all properties here. Something vague. They\u2019re saying we are trying to take over land. Or we could say we are on a lease hold out there. Nobody has given us any (that would show that we\u2019re trying to save the government). We were informed that Guyanese \u2013 before any ruckus started \u2013 that does essentially say the same thing. I don\u2019t think it makes any difference whether the Guyanese are in control or not. We can probably, ain\u2019t nobody that work it. If they let us work it and it\u2019s under Guyanese control\u2013 set up some of those little houses there, we could use them for temporary measure for some of our people. Then keep the hope up in our people. Tell them whatever they do\u2013 Jean Brown let this out no further than she, Maria [Katsaris], you, and [Jim] Randolph and [Mike] Prokes are in it. And Deanna Mertle.<\/p>\n Stoen:<\/strong> Why the hell\u2013 Well, it\u2019s my fault.<\/p>\n Jones:<\/strong> Well, tell her that there is still some prospect. We have it and\u2013 she don\u2019t want to go anyway, I can tell she don\u2019t want to go. So Father\u2019s mind not to go. But don\u2019t take that hope away from the people. We will still use it as an outstation for poor people who cannot\u2013 you know, not poor people but people that would be socially handicapped in a metropolitan or technological nation like this. Even if we use it to work under Guyanese supervision. Tell her it means essentially no difference. Probably it will be run just the same. There will be just some paper somewhere that it belongs to the Guyanese. We just aren\u2019t going to put much more in it, that\u2019s all. And they were to find that out in two weeks. You know, enough to maintain their living.<\/p>\n Stoen:<\/strong> So I do say, I put in the ad then that the trustees have decided to withdraw unless there\u2019s an affirmative, unless were asked to stay.<\/p>\n Jones:<\/strong> That\u2019s being too legal. Put it in the gentle. Unless it is found by the government that we will serve some purpose by staying. We are willing to turn it over to some other ecumenical group, not have it connected with our denomination at all. Thousands of dollars of planting and crops of all kinds of varieties, even crops that don\u2019t customarily grow there. Crops\u2013 I think it should be said we served so many people a very lovely feast \u2013 most of the residents of the Northwest District such a lovely feast over Christmas holidays \u2013 from our ground. Don\u2019t say all<\/em> the feast, but make it sound like many<\/em> crops which we used to serve the large feast in the schools there. Don\u2019t say the school, that make up the school in trouble. In a\u2013 a large feast for all the residents of the District there, the Guyanese residents. And say the thousands of dollars of labor and all the acres that have been cleared away and planted and the several miles of road deep in the jungle. Don\u2019t forget our equipment. I\u2019d like to get something like that out of there.<\/p>\n Stoen:<\/strong> The possibility to mention it?<\/p>\n Jones:<\/strong> I wouldn\u2019t mention it.<\/p>\n Stoen:<\/strong> \u2018Cause the ad has it in.<\/p>\n Jones:<\/strong> What did it say?<\/p>\n Stoen:<\/strong> It said provided we get our equipment back or something.<\/p>\n Jones:<\/strong> Just fix it so we don\u2019t give the indication that we would turn it over. Maybe we shouldn\u2019t put it in there. Maybe these damned fanatics will want to take that too. And make more trouble for the government if they wouldn\u2019t let us get. For the work that we have now done. Some way toward it without saying what we want back. You think we got enough on this thing now that were modifying it?<\/p>\n Stoen:<\/strong> Yeah, right.<\/p>\n Jones:<\/strong> But don\u2019t say unless we get affirmative action. They\u2019ll come up with in a legal jargon which is your tendency as lawyers. But isn\u2019t your tendency in [cut off]. But Chaikin has got that totally, he has never lost that legal\u2013 something loving, encouraging. I had to send you down when it may be pointless. You ought to say that Chaikin ought not to go anywhere without Paula. To talk to anyone without Paula. She\u2019ll modify him. She\u2019s gentler. Tell him to be (illegible). Tell him exactly what you wanted. And both of them\u2013 all of them \u2013 say all of them \u2013 say you\u2019ve got to come off gentle yet firm, where there needs to be firmness. Tell him where to be firm. You\u2019ll have to tell him that exactly. I do think something ought to be done to proceed on this case with\u2013<\/p>\n Stoen:<\/strong> The priest\u2013<\/p>\n Jones:<\/strong> Thank you, you are on the ball. And there ought to be\u2013 the newspaper ought not to get the idea that we are going to walk out of there without defending ourselves. And say something that if this continues\u2013 we have a good name in the states. We have people from all\u2013 we have provided testimonies in these very newspapers of leaders of all types of denominations and governmental positions in the United States. And if it continues, we will defend ourselves and the courts\u2013 or something. I don\u2019t\u2013 the way they\u2019re wording it, why, it\u2019s blind man\u2019s bluff. With all the information they think they have, I think they are careful trying to avoid a suit, wouldn\u2019t you say?<\/p>\n Stoen:<\/strong> Well, in British law, you know they have the strict libel law, so that may be.<\/p>\n Jones:<\/strong> Well, tell him to get some research down there to find out.<\/p>\n Stoen:<\/strong> I\u2019ll tell him.<\/p>\n Jones:<\/strong> Obviously it\u2019s more interplay of freedoms of individual freedoms to protect themselves than has been seen. What if we don\u2019t, they\u2019ll ride our ass. Say were hiring a very competent attorney firm here, don\u2019t say who, and they will continue to serve us, and to see that we all are\u2013 all we\u2019re asking is that people don\u2019t dirty the efforts of people who have no\u2013 don\u2019t, no, that isn\u2019t the word\u2013 don\u2019t try to portray a bad image of people \u2013 something that is not charged words \u2013 portray a bad image to people who will be serving the rest of their lives to do something about the food, hunger of the world, the ecology problem of the world. Something very nice. Something very fair, I think, you know, we might ask them to get off our ass. After\u2013 I suppose you can do that without\u2013 but I suppose you\u2013 but I don\u2019t believe any kind of mercy is going to appeal to these people. I think that they are\u2013 I think it\u2019s a dull society in which we\u2019ve given them a heyday. The only good I can see in it now is that we didn\u2019t throw our whole asset into it, because I think sooner or later we\u2019d have been a threat, wouldn\u2019t make no difference if it\u2019s today, or tomorrow. Sooner or later we do have crossed by some stupid ass giving wrong advice, we\u2019d attract far more position than we had, and maybe even been recognized as a district there, we\u2019d have had a member in the Congress. And I think we\u2019d have been a threat. They\u2019d like to have come up and said we were a CIA experiment, probably. There was something in the news a few days ago that I tried, that Chaikin poo-pooed. It was that the CIA\u2013 oh no, it was a Brazilian. A man who had to flee to Brazil because he was accused of being a CIA plant because he was going through the district doing some kind of good. I don\u2019t know what it was. So these people may be just going totally against America. And we don\u2019t get into any of that kind of raw game. I\u2019ll tell you, this country has got its faults, but it sure does not by any means hold that (unintelligible). There are some things I did not share with you because\u2013<\/p>\n Stoen:<\/strong> It has not got any health care program.<\/p>\n Jones:<\/strong> These people need a dream. And I knew it didn\u2019t make any difference to you one way or the other so I didn\u2019t bother to tell you. They are talking about going back to Blue Cross-Blue Shield. But what the hell kind of program is not. Those people can\u2019t go near a doctor. They walk around now with disease (unintelligible) sun up to sun down. Didn\u2019t even make a dent. So, I know the devil, and I don\u2019t know any new set of devils<\/p>\n Stoen:<\/strong> I feel comfortable with the decision to keep our strength here.<\/p>\n Jones:<\/strong> I just hope we don\u2019t get any backwash. You see in the other measure we should use? Get the nationals. Get that woman to sign \u2013 if they\u2019ve done what they were supposed to do \u2013 for that newspaper she have already been signed. We cannot count on\u2013 I\u2019d like to tell you to take all night, you write beautifully, you are one of the most beautiful writers, but you take so long to get something off, and if you take all night\u2013 the thing that you suffer in with Paula and in Gene is you suffer a procrastination. They\u2019ve lived in Latin America too long. You wouldn\u2019t believe what I had to live with there. Damn near had carry me home on a stretcher. Nobody followed anything I\u2019d do on time. I had a lot of brilliant ideas, which all would have avoided the whole damn meeting. I wanted to cancel the meeting, (illegible). If they had got to the Catholic Church and had made it so I could have saved face, but I had the damn thing in the newspaper, I don\u2019t want to go into that with them now. I don\u2019t want to start that. But just, all this for stuff, you might tell some of our people on this end who are dealing with it though, if anything starts, \u2018cause lots start up here like why didn\u2019t Father anticipate this? I did anticipate this. I felt we got ourselves on a lamb, and shouldn\u2019t be there. That probably ought to be said, say that we ought\u2013 a message ought to go around to all RV [Redwood Valley] and all the churches that we are still getting a plane, Diane [code word] it\u2019s starting in Los Angeles, in a pilot\u2019s training Monday, and we are going right on because our mission has not been stopped and certainly our program has not been stopped. Because we have other\u2013 Father has other plans. You know, to say like not, other great plans for us to serve. So the plans go on. So everybody work. That way we have very well handled that shaking turn in direction. But I think we need done in the background, because it is going to be a let down, here in a little while. An emotional letdown. Thank you. Bye.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":" Array<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":6,"featured_media":0,"parent":13823,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-13824","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/13824","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/6"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=13824"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/13824\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":130794,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/13824\/revisions\/130794"}],"up":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/13823"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=13824"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}