{"id":27307,"date":"2013-06-16T00:19:09","date_gmt":"2013-06-16T00:19:09","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/alternativejonestown.com\/?page_id=27307"},"modified":"2017-03-21T15:52:46","modified_gmt":"2017-03-21T22:52:46","slug":"q1021","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=27307","title":{"rendered":"Q1021 Transcript"},"content":{"rendered":"

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.<\/strong><\/i><\/p>\n

To return to the Tape Index, click here<\/a>.\u00a0To listen to MP3, click here<\/a>.
\nTo read the Tape Summary, click here<\/a>.\u00a0To read the Annotated Transcript,\u00a0click here<\/a>.<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>\u2014who is continuing to (pause)\u2014 No one should be on the floor walking about right now. Everyone should find a seat and be quiet. (pause) I think the first thing we should say is, uh, the Tuesday night meetings are at 7 PM, and you will have to arrive before<\/i> 7 PM to be able to get in the door. If you come at 7, the door will be closed. You have to be inside\u2014 (clear throat) You have to be inside the auditorium by 7. The meetings are not at 7:30. They are at 7 PM, Tuesday night meetings. (Pause) Okay. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Marceline: <\/b>Some general comments. If you need telephone numbers, please try information before you call any of our members, that ah\u2014\u00a0probably 80, 90 percent of the telephone numbers, even when people move, are<\/i> listed with the operator. And their time is not as valuable as our time. Sometimes\u2014 (long pause)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>They call our home for telephone numbers.<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>That\u2019s absurd. Uh, anyone\u2014\u00a0Well, who\u2014 who here has called\u2014\u00a0called the parsonage uh, for a number? (Pause) There was a re\u2014\u00a0call received. Marceline received a call yesterday. Who was this? (Pause) And they wanted the number for the Friendship\u2014 what\u2019s that, the Fellowship House. For the Fellowship House. (Pause) Who was that? (Pause) There is to be no<\/i> one, absolutely no<\/i> one, calling that parsonage. (Pause) I\u2019m tr\u2014 I\u2014\u00a0I know\u2014 (unintelligible phrase) be no one calling the parsonage, trying to find a number. That\u2019s not a, a, an information center. You can\u2019t call in there to, you know, to check in and find out who you want to see, or find out someone\u2019s number. (Pause) There are over 300, 400 calls there a day<\/i>, and they cannot be expected to answer the phone every second, and especially for something as nonsensical as an information for another number. (Pause) From now on, you should call in\u2014 either information, which is 411, or call someone on this council, if you\u2019re having difficulty finding someone\u2019s numbers. (Pause) Now is anyone here still smoking, or drinking? And if you are\u2014 (Pause)<\/p>\n

(Voice too low)<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>Uh, just as a reminder, we are having a Los Angeles meeting this weekend, and everyone is to go. (Pause) The only\u2014 (tape edit) any excuses about not having the carfare to go, that is\u2014\u00a0that isn\u2019t a problem. (Pause) Any everyone<\/i> that misses will be brought up on this floor and dealt with pretty severely, because this\u2014 this has been gone over time and time again. (Pause) Even if you\u2019re working<\/i>, let\u2019s say, on Friday night, and we leave<\/i> Friday night, we expect for you to arrange for a carpool<\/i>. (Pause) Is that understood? Everyone should be in this coming meeting\u2014 this coming meeting this weekend, in Los Angeles meeting? (Pause) Is anyone from the buses here know what time we\u2019re leaving Friday night? (Pause) Six o\u2019clock we\u2019ll be leaving? (Pause) Well, all of you should be out here between six and 6:30, I\u2019d say, to board the buses so we can get on our way to Los Angeles. (Pause) Thank you. (Pause) It has been brought to the council\u2019s attention that Bunny Talley [most likely Maureen Fitch, aka Maureen Talley] went to Los Angeles as a hostess. I saw her in back. I see her right there. (Pause) Bunny Talley went to Los Angeles as a hostess, and did not<\/i> report to work at Hacienda. (Pause) Would you come up front, please? (Pause) Well, while she\u2019s coming forward, no one is ever to miss work, unless you are\u2014 you are almost deathly<\/i> ill and have a\u2014\u00a0have a very high fever. Even that<\/i> doesn\u2019t really count, because you can usually get out of bed, you know, for something you want to do<\/i>, and work is an extremely, you know, part of\u2014\u00a0co\u2014 contributing to this\u2014\u00a0to our major work here, you know. (Pause) It\u2019s\u2014\u00a0It\u2019s very, very important for all of us to maintain good work records, good attendance at\u2014 at jobs, and good job performance, if you ever want to relocate elsewhere. So we expect everyone to be on the ball at jobs and attend. Now, Bunny, what\u2014 what about this?<\/p>\n

Bunny:<\/b> I check\u2014 I checked with Lois [probably Ponts, could be Breidenbach] before I went, and I have sick time coming uh, from work to me, and this is what I took. I took my sick time, which I do get paid for, for taking. And I had to have this taken out by \u2014 this is August? \u2014 by September when we started. And I talked to Lois today, and she didn\u2019t say anything about there being any trouble at work. I took it on sick leave, I have a notice from my doctor to go back to work on. (Pause) But I went down Friday night, uh, as a hostess, and was cleared to do so, and then I went uh\u2014 when the buses went back. And the only reason I went back was because Sylvia [Grubbs] said she was\u2014 did need uh, hostesses.<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>Okay, who\u2014 who\u2014 who\u2014 who has made this\u2014\u00a0this complaint?<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>I was, because we, uh\u2014 they were short two girls and um, um, Mary Wotherspoon said that um, Saturday night that Mary said that she didn\u2019t think she could uh, work the next day. And I didn\u2019t know that she had cleared it with Lois.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, then, let\u2019s go\u2014 let\u2019s go through Lois. It\u2019s all right. I appreciate your surveillance, uh, but let\u2019s go through Lois before we get this thing on the floor. Uh, we do have these emergencies where we were extended, and uh, bus crews have no alternative, they best have no resource to withdraw\u2014 to withdraw from, so let us check out, uh, with her before we get a matter on the floor, um. Check with the\u2014 with the person who\u2014\u00a0the head. I might say that Marceline in her, um contact today with some import\u2014 important officials, she has an ex officio<\/i> uh, pretty important position given to her uh, today, and not any defined hours, but uh, a position that can be of some immense resource to the\u2014 to the family. She uh, got some glowing reports on Hacienda\u2019s improvement at the state level, so that\u2019s good to know. (Pause) That\u2019s the state<\/i> level that she got this\u2014 So keep it\u2014 keep it up. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Voices too low.<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>Is Louise Schaeffer here?<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>Yes\u2014 (rest of sentence tooo soft)<\/p>\n

Voices too low.<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>Is John Biddulph here? Is he outside in the grounds anywhere? Has anyone seen him?<\/p>\n

Voices too low.<\/p>\n

Second Woman: <\/b>(mike cuts in) \u2014he would probably have to work late, because I was going to put him in a rest home, but he told me, he\u2019d probably have to work late because of this.<\/p>\n

Voices too low.<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>Uh, Herman? (Clears throat) The other night, uh, John asked you to uh, help him work, you know, clean up\u2014 clean up the church. I think it was uh, Saturday night. And uh, then you went into the building and sat down at a table while the rest of the guys cleaned, and uh, ate a piece of pie. (Pause) Is this\u2014 Is this true, this complaint? (Pause) Herman? Is this true? Co\u2014 Come on forward, Herman. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Voices too low.<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>Okay. (Pause) Okay, what I said was, John Biddulph asked you Saturday evening, uh, I think it was Saturday evening, to help clean<\/i> in the\u2014 in the\u2014\u00a0you know, do some maintenance here, and you went out and got yourself a piece of pie from one of the concessions stands, came back in, sat down at a table, ate uh\u2014 you know, right while they were working. (Pause) Instead of giving them a hand, you sat down and ate a piece of pie. Is this what happened?<\/p>\n

Herman: <\/b>Yeah. I told them, I had to take some people home too.<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>So why didn\u2019t you go about doing that<\/i>, then, instead of coming in, sitting down, and eating a pie of pie, after the brother had asked you to give him a hand?<\/p>\n

Herman: <\/b>\u2018Cause they were ready to go in a few minutes. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>Say what? I didn\u2019t hear you.<\/p>\n

Herman: <\/b>I said, they were ready to go in a little while. In a few minutes.<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>Then, you could\u2019ve\u2014 you could\u2019ve helped<\/i> them for that few minutes that you were waiting for those folks to get ready, or whatever they were doing, instead of their luggage off buses or something. You could\u2019ve, you know, lent\u2014 lent them a hand<\/i>. That\u2019s all they asked<\/i> you, was for a hand. \u2018Cause you were\u2014 he was short-staffed Saturday. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>What is this? Let me (unintelligible word)<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>(Too low)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Brother Allen Terry. Bluntly. When you put the whole arm of the church out, (Pause) all the\u2014 all the praise and all the dancing and all the\u2014 the shouting, all the tears in the world, and I saw you crying last Saturday about gratitude over getting out of a mess. But all that means nothing<\/i> to me whatsoever, (Pause) when we\u2019re still in that mess, and we got to fight that mess through, and we\u2019re gonna fight it through, as your family. And John Biddulph\u2019s one of my structural<\/i> people, most important people here to get\u2014 help me with the burden of maintenance. And you start this thing, just hours out of your (stumbles over words) after having some difficulty. It makes me wonder. \u2018Cause if it wasn\u2019t for your family right now, you\u2019d be\u2014 you\u2019d be in a real spot, and you know it. But you\u2014 the only thing you got working for you is there\u2014 the family, the legal counselors here, and then hours<\/i> after a thing, hours<\/i> after it\u2014 and I\u2019m not just speaking to you, Herman, I\u2019m speaking to people in general, there ought to be a vote, a spirit of gratitude that uh, would prevail<\/i>, last longer than just one moment. But you sit down and eat a piece of pie\u2014 you could\u2019ve also helped Tim [probably Stoen] for that moment while you were waiting. (unintelligible word) John Biddulph\u2019s overworked.<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>That\u2019s right. And it\u2019s really difficult\u2014 I mean, you know, he\u2014\u00a0he stays here and slaves until like three, four, five o\u2019clock sometimes. You know, and it\u2019s just he and maybe, you know, uh, one or two other brothers, Phil\u2014 Phil Blakey, and maybe one other brother, that they can barely, you know, get to, to give them a hand.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>He\u2019ll never leave. He never leaves, unless I\u2014 I dismiss him. He\u2019ll sleep in a chair. He was doing it four or five o\u2019clock the other morning, and it\u2019s morning after morning after morning. And of course, everyone\u2019s had their share of difficulty, he has had his<\/i>, but, for months, he\u2019s created no<\/i> problems. (Pause) Well over a year<\/i>, he\u2019s created no<\/i> problem. And he\u2014\u00a0he\u2019s shown a redemptiveness<\/i> for his problem. And all he did was uh\u2014 was uh, something had hurt himself<\/i>. But what you<\/i> did, man, was something else, uh, even though it was hysteria, but when you took off like that in a car\u2014 (unintelligible word) That was my hesitancy for you to get<\/i> a car in the first place, someone who has not driven for long. So you get a car and you go out, and you don\u2019t more get in it, you run over fences and cars and toys, and you could\u2019ve killed<\/i> somebody. (Pause) And then you leave the scene<\/i>. And I don\u2019t know what you know about law, but that\u2019s a serious business, when you leave a scene.<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>Yes it is, (unintelligible phrase)\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Uh\u2014 well, we\u2019re not going to discuss that, I guess, but that isn\u2019t the proper thing. Probably you<\/i> didn\u2019t really leave the scene, but in your mind, (Pause) um, (Pause) there was irresponsibility in your behavior. Irresponsibility.<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>Uh, and it seems\u2014 seems, brother, this pattern of carrying through<\/i> um, in\u2014 in your\u2014 in your work. You know\u2014 (voice fades)<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>Uh, Herman, uh, at the hospital Sunday night, this uh, Mexican man named Frank Bean that was working at County Hospital with you brought his daughter in, and uh, he said to one of the nurses there at General Hospital, he said, there\u2019s a colored man at the County Hospital, and he\u2019s the most lazy man I ever met in my life. He spends three and a half hours in a row watching a ballgame without stopping. He watched the ballgame from 10:30 in\u2014 this morning until 1:30 this afternoon. He goes into a back room and he listens to the radio. He\u2014 he never does anything<\/i>. He\u2014 He spot cleans, he spot sweeps. And he said, I\u2019d really like to see him get fired. And um\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Who said that?<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>This Frank Bean, that is a\u2014\u00a0is a janitor now at uh, Mendocino Hos\u2014 at uh, County Hospital with Herman. He said that Herman watches TV for three hours of\u2014\u00a0of the ballgame without stopping.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Do you watch the ballgame?<\/p>\n

Herman: <\/b>On my lunch hour.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Where are you\u2014 Where are you in consciousness? You\u2019re interested in ballgames here? (Pause)<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>Brother, do you understand\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I\u2014\u00a0You\u2014 You earn like you do, like a (unintelligible phrase), a loving father. And the easier<\/i> I am, the more of this I put up with.<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>Uh, Herman, a\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Shh! (Pause) I don\u2019t want\u2014 I don\u2019t want to have to ask\u2014 ask, expose and pull it out, inch by inch. Is this true, Herman, or is it not true? (Pause)<\/p>\n

Herman: <\/b>Yes, it\u2019s true.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Why did you lie to me? (Pause)<\/p>\n

Herman: <\/b>But I do<\/i> do my work, he was wrong<\/i> about that.<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>He asked why\u2014 why did you lie to him?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>\u2018Cause the lunch hour is not the only time you\u2019ve ever done it. You knew you were lying to me. And I know it immediately<\/i>, and I\u2019m tired of letting you people get by with this lying, because I\u2019m just (unintelligible word), uh, not interested in going into each<\/i> of these little things, and dig, dig, dig, and I know immediately<\/i> when somebody lies to me. I may look at you, and just at you straight, and let you lie. Or I may do just like I did then, and say, I\u2019m getting tired. (Pause) You lie very nicely<\/i>. You lie just very straightforwardly. Mmm, mmm, mmm, you shook your head, like you had been (soft tone) attacked unrighteously and unfairly. (Pause) (Snaps fingers) (unintelligible word)<\/p>\n

3rd<\/b> Woman: <\/b>Herman has even gone to the San Francisco Bay Area to ball games there, to the Giants\u2014 Giant games, I believe it is, uh, on a weekend, and paid<\/i> money to go. (Pause) (Angrily) You have too. And you came back and slept in my car, and\u2014 and went to work for my car. You did too. Don\u2019t lie again. (Pause)<\/p>\n

4th<\/b> Woman: <\/b>Herman, have you paid money to go to see the Giants play?<\/p>\n

Herman: <\/b>Yes, but I never\u2014<\/p>\n

4th Woman: <\/b>(unintelligible word as she interrupts) \u2014It doesn\u2019t matter whether you went on the weekend or any other time, did you go<\/i>? That is the important thing. You\u2019re skirting around the issue<\/i> again. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>If you\u2014 If you smoke a cigarette, it doesn\u2019t matter what road you smoked it on.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Aw, well, (stumbles over words) (speaks in low angry tone) This is not necessary. You don\u2019t have to teach Herman ethics. Or if you do<\/i>, we\u2019ve certainly uh, been wasting our time. You<\/i> know that uh\u2014 whether it\u2019s a weekend or whether uh, not, we\u2019ve talked about the capitalism of, of ballgames. The exploitation of blacks<\/i> by sports<\/i> clubs. The miserable revelations. I\u2019ve spent two or three sermons \u2014 three \u2014 talking about the revelations of a former ballplayer, how they give them hypodermics that kill<\/i> them, to get more energy out of them, make them muscular, but it finally kills<\/i> them. Or makes them addicts. And they\u2019re all involved in barbarous misuse of\u2014\u00a0by uh, the\u2014 these organizations, and the homosexuality that was, uh, sadism, sadistic homosexuality encouraged by coach\u2014 coaches. We all<\/i> went in this. You heard\u2014\u00a0If you\u2014 you\u2014 \u2018Course, you may not have heard this\u2014<\/p>\n

Herman: <\/b>I don\u2019t know\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Some people don\u2019t hear anything goes on in here. (Pause) You sit here, but you don\u2019t hear it. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Woman 5:<\/b> And also, you\u2019re chewing gum right now\u2014<\/p>\n

Woman 6:<\/b> Excuse me, could we have everyone please listening when Father\u2019s talking, and not reading a newspaper. Thank you.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Who\u2019s reading a newspaper?<\/p>\n

Woman 6:<\/b> Bernie.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Who\u2019s reading a newspaper?<\/p>\n

Woman 6:<\/b> Ber\u2014 Uncle Bernie. He\u2019s sitting there looking at the Sun-Reporter<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(Snort) (Pause) Now you see<\/i>? You don\u2019t like discipline. You don\u2019t like rules, don\u2019t like council. People said the council\u2019s too ag\u2014 aggravating. Because I\u2019m the Father<\/i>, and I tend to love my children (Pause) too much, to indulgence, you\u2019ve got to have a tough council. Council has to (Pause) take an unloving role of what it seems to be\u2014 It really is<\/i> a loving<\/i> role. (Pause) Somebody gonna have to go. Somebody gonna have to take a walk.<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>I think so.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>This place is gettin\u2019 in danger, (Pause) because everyone thinks that you can get by. I look out here, and I see, from every<\/i> meeting, the issues I talk about from the meeting before, facing<\/i> me, the same<\/i> issues facing me the next meeting (Pause) because, I think maybe you think (Pause) that uh, we won\u2019t separate from you. (Pause) Well, you\u2019re not too<\/i> high (Pause) that we won\u2019t separate from you. You better listen closely. (Pause) I\u2019m not that\u2014 I wasn\u2019t at council last night, too, but there were lies<\/i> told to that council. Lies. (Pause) Not facing reality. Trying to shift the gears. (Pause) Pushing the responsibility onto somebody else. (Pause) So I had to become fully<\/i> aware of what went on at council last night. (Pause) I\u2019m\u2014 I don\u2019t like to give people\u2014 a council the power<\/i> to throw somebody out when I\u2019m not present<\/i>, but (Pause) I\u2019m inclined to think I shall. (Pause) If we make a bad decision<\/i>, it can\u2019t be as bad as what we\u2019re into here. (Pause) Because, if you don\u2019t get the message in working with us, when I put the whole<\/i> machinery of this church at your<\/i> expense, and run our attorneys right in for you, and willing to risk our whole<\/i> reputation, when I would never dream<\/i> of leaving the scene of an accident\u2014 (Pause) They\u2019d have to drag<\/i> me away from the scene of an accident. (Pause) But you did<\/i> this, (Pause) and we went along with this and uh, support you, because you\u2019re one of our brothers. (Pause) Nothing can be quoted from this room. Can\u2019t even discuss things wh\u2014\u00a0with any sense anymore, because it\u2019s not good sense to discuss this type of thing. (Pause) (unintelligible word) deny the things\u2019d been said, (unintelligible word) we\u2019ll stand by each other, we\u2019re like the Jews<\/i>. We\u2019ll stand by each other<\/i>. Got nobody else<\/i> to stand by. Anybody goes out and said he left the scene, I\u2019d say you\u2019re a liar, because I\u2019ll support the family. (Pause) [I\u2019d] Say he\u2019d never done it before<\/i>. That\u2019s not the issue. You\u2019ve never done it before. But it\u2014 just in days<\/i>, a matter of days, and then we have a thing like this come up on you right after. I\u2014 I\u2014 I\u2019d\u2014 If\u2014 If I had a family had fought for me when I was alone, and I spent a goodly part of my life alone, (Pause) I would\u2019ve been eternally grateful<\/i> to that family. And I\u2019d done anything<\/i> I could to keep that family together. Some of you seem to have (unintelligible word\u2014 could be “the feeling”), you can\u2019t tear that family up. (Pause) Tear<\/i> it up. (Pause) I don\u2019t think you intentionally<\/i> do it, but it\u2019s\u2014\u00a0whether it\u2019s intentions or not, it amounts to the same thing. What do you have to say?<\/p>\n

Marceline: <\/b>Um\u2014 I see Herman moving around through the halls. He does move awfully slowly. And the whole hospital is against him. I mean, all that I\u2019ve heard talk. And when we uh\u2014\u00a0When I came back from vacation, I told him that I went\u2014 took a plane and went to Ohio to visit my grandchildren, so as soon as I walk in after being gone two weeks, the head nurse on Acute says, well, did you enjoy your trip to Mexico and Canada? And I said, what do you mean<\/i>? And she said, well, didn\u2019t you go with Herman and the church? And I said, I don\u2019t know anything about it. I said, I went to Ohio on the airplane. And I approached<\/i> Herman, and I\u2014 I asked Herman before we went on the trip, not to tell anybody<\/i> where we were going.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Did you, Herman?<\/p>\n

Marceline: <\/b>And he told one person (unintelligible word under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Did you? (Pause) Herman? (Pause) What do you have to say, Zippy [Zipporah Edwards]?<\/p>\n

Zippy:<\/b> (off mike) This is Zippy speaking. (mike on) Uh, what I want to say, see, I been uh, telling<\/i> him about these ballgames for a long, long time.<\/p>\n

Several voices compete.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I asked\u2014 I asked her. I sent it to her. I was about to make a decision, (unknown name: Harry? Harriet?), and you missed\u2014 you missed it all\u2014 you missed it. I\u2014 I\u2019ve not<\/i> made a decision, but I wanted to hear from her first.<\/p>\n

Zippy:<\/b> So I said, you know that Jim\u2014 what Jim thinks about these ball games, he saying\u2014 I think, you should quit going to the ball games. And then again, when he got this car, I wanted to tell him, don\u2019t go in unfamiliar places at night, \u2018cause you don\u2019t know how to drive in the dark, and you\u2014 and I wouldn\u2019t tell him, because I know his head, (unintelligible sentence). I wanted to tell him (unintelligible phrase), Father, but he would not listen to anything you say (unintelligible word). And I been asking for a long time about going to these ball games, (unintelligible phrase).<\/p>\n

Woman 7:<\/b> Um\u2014 and just uh, Saturday or Sunday, Herman took off at 1:30 and uh, Jan Wilsey\u2019s mother told me that they were talking in the dining room about him, and said that Herman was going to get fired.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, she\u2019s an Indian, so she\u2019s not against you.<\/p>\n

Woman 7:<\/b> No, she\u2019s for<\/i> him.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Um-hmm.<\/p>\n

Woman 7: <\/b>And she (unintelligible word under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(unintelligible word) There seems to be some number of Caucasians involved, but that\u2019s your\u2014 it\u2019s your blood relative there, standing, she\u2019s black. So there[\u2018s] been an equal number here of all races represented with a very, very<\/i> bad story here.<\/p>\n

Woman 7: <\/b>I didn\u2019t\u2014 I didn\u2019t hear what they said, but she said that they said he\u2019s taken too much time off, and that he told them he had to go to the International Airport, and he had to leave at 1:30. And the janitor and\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>The International Airport.<\/p>\n

Woman 7: <\/b>And the janitor and the housekeeping department, which she\u2019s a part of, were all setting in there, three or four of them, discussing him being fired. (Pause) And also, you been playing games with those women, too, Herman. You\u2019ve been uh, flirting around with some gals in uh, Los Angeles, and one of the girls here, and then you tried to get me to go with you in your car the other day, and I thought<\/i> it was friendship. When I realized what you\u2014 you were flirting around with me, you said you\u2019d rather have me than anybody, I didn\u2019t want to go with you at all. (Pause) Well, I think that if Archie Ijames<\/i> were here, he could verify that you did, and you\u2019re lying again.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>What\u2019s that?<\/p>\n

Woman 7: <\/b>He said he didn\u2019t try to get me to go with him. He wanted me to go with him in his car. And he\u2019s lying. Again. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>What\u2019s that about, man? What\u2019s that about? You were taking her where? What had you intended to do?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I can\u2019t answer this kind of stuff. I don\u2019t (unintelligible word)\u2014<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>Okay. (Pause) Well, there\u2014 there\u2019ve been some very, very serious<\/i> charges made here, Herman. Very serious indeed<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Uh, Grace [Stoen]? Read this and go get uh, A.J. [Archie Ijames] (Pause) Okay?<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>Have you anything to say for yourself at this time?<\/p>\n

Herman: <\/b>Yes, I\u2019m sorry. (Pause) And it won\u2019t happen again.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>No, I\u2019m\u2014 I can assure you, it won\u2019t happen again. (Pause) I can assure<\/i> you, it won\u2019t happen again. None<\/i> of this mess is going to happen again. (Long pause) You better be laying some plans as to where you would move, if you are released from this church. Because if you deviate the slightest, Herman, you\u2019re going. I won\u2019t even act on it.<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>You\u2019re right. That\u2019s right, Herman.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>And I\u2014 my word\u2019s out there. They\u2019re\u2014 They\u2019re going to do it.<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>You\u2019re right. We will.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/b> That\u2019s it, man.<\/p>\n

Several quiet voices<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Oh, I know about his temper. I know that. I\u2014 uh, man\u2014 I expect you to cooperate with me. I\u2019ve never been arrested. I\u2019ve never been involved in anything<\/i> illegal, and I give my life purely<\/i> for socialism, and I want to keep my record clean<\/i>. (Voice rises) I don\u2019t like<\/i> people running around<\/i>, violating every kind of rule, then violating laws, for their own ego. The only law I believe in breaking is what Martin Luther King said, a bad law<\/i>. A bad law doesn\u2019t mean to misbehave on a road with an automobile. Those are good<\/i> laws, the only be\u2014 all\u2014\u00a0only ought to be tighter and harder<\/i> than they are. (Pause) Then we have your work<\/i> habits. Those are good laws. We can show people we\u2019re good integrationists, that we\u2019re good socialists, by how we work. You violated that. Your temper and your\u2014 your interplay, your sex play. There\u2019s nothing so threatening than a\u2014\u00a0than a man who appears moderately, uh, dressed or moderately handsome, being black and large, flirting around on a job<\/i>. You\u2019re messing us up there<\/i>. \u2018Cause evidently you had no need for women on a\u2014\u00a0in a\u2014 in marriage all your life<\/i>. You got along very beautifully without women. Do you have the same problem that the other brothers have. (Pause) Hmm?<\/p>\n

Herman: <\/b>Yes.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>What is that problem? (Pause)<\/p>\n

Herman: <\/b>Homosexuality.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>All right, now, what\u2014\u00a0what\u2014 what\u2014\u00a0what are we\u2014\u00a0what are we uh\u2014 (Pause) What are you risking so much? (Pause)<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>Uh, wha\u2014 wha\u2014 what are\u2014\u00a0what are you now involved in here, you know, project-wise?<\/p>\n

Herman: <\/b>(Clears throat) Service uh, committee.<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>What else? (Pause) And how many\u2014 Well, how many hours do you spend with the service committee working on things?<\/p>\n

Herman: <\/b>Well, I\u2014 I just started.<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>Just started it?<\/p>\n

Herman: <\/b>Yeah.<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>What else are you involved in, Herman?<\/p>\n

Herman: <\/b>Well, security.<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>You used to come down here and uh, help so<\/i> much with maintenance, and I\u2014 I\u2019m looking back to that time. I\u2019m uh\u2014 I\u2019m fair<\/i>. If anything, too<\/i> fair. I\u2019m\u2014 I\u2019m let\u2014 I\u2019m riding on the years that we\u2019ve known each other. (Pause) I rode on the years that I\u2019ve known each other with a couple other<\/i> people this week. (Pause) I\u2019m getting kind of weary, putting out anything but the truth. (Pause) So, as I said, no matter how much it breaks my heart to do so, at the next<\/i> hearing, I won\u2019t be present<\/i>. I will step down from this office, and they<\/i> will be this office. And I think you need to know\u2014 as they know, I\u2019m loving, but they think that in some instances, I\u2019m a little too soft. So\u2014 (Pause) um, you face them. Not me. And I\u2019ll put it in the record, and that\u2019s it. So, brother, keep your nose clean. They\u2019re going to write this down, so that\u2019s my word. I will not be able to intervene. Do you realize what that means? You better improve your job, (Pause) you better lay off wasting our money on racist sports\u2014<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>Amen.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>\u2014and better find some\u2014 If you want some companionship, if there\u2019s any need in you at all, then you find it within this group, you don\u2019t find it outside. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>Why don\u2019t you get a dog from Penny [most likely Kerns], if you want some companionship? She has a lot of little puppies that need taking care of. Why don\u2019t you get a, you know, get an animal to take care of, if you\u2019re looking for companionship? It\u2019d be a lot more wholesome, and a lot more real. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Whatever. You better not play any kind of sex games here, to get us in any trouble. I\u2019ve had enough trouble, \u2018cause I am saving myself to fight injustice. And I don\u2019t want to get drug<\/i> in by these silly violations of good<\/i> laws. And I better get through everybody\u2019s head here. (Pause) I will go down fighting against an unjust law<\/i>. But it is just<\/i> that you give an honest day\u2019s work for your pay. You don\u2019t like it, quit. Or go through channels and protest<\/i> it. But don\u2019t slovenly, uh, fail to do your work. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>And besides telling three lies here to Father, I asked you, uh, when I first got up, to swallow your chewing gum, and you didn\u2019t, and uh, I\u2019m quite sure that the children don\u2019t appreciate it.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>What are you doing, chewing gum in here? (Long pause)<\/p>\n

Voices too soft<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>All right, go ahead. Let him talk about something else. Go ahead. Whatever you have to say to him.<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>Um\u2014 I think you should, from now on out\u2014 Uh, wha\u2014 Herman, what is your schedule? Do you have a constant schedule? Do you work days, is that it?<\/p>\n

Herman: <\/b>Yes.<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>Okay. Fine. You are only to use your cars\u2014 your car to go to<\/i> and from work, unless you are especially called on. Uh, I want you\u2014 I want Zippy\u2014\u00a0Zippy, where are you, hon?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I want you to do this for me. (Stumbles over words) I\u2019m greatly questioning whether, uh, how much you know me<\/i>, and to be where you are, all the years we\u2019ve been around, or at least, in contact with each other. (Pause) I want you<\/i> to come down here, and uh, you check water, uh, people been leaving water. I want you to do this every<\/i> day, see that there\u2019s not water faucets running. I\u2019d like you to go through and see that the animals are well fed, \u2018cause I\u2019m having to do some of this. And I\u2019ll be on some important missions. I want you to see<\/i> that these animals are getting well-fed, and you or Stephan [Jones, Jim Jones\u2019 son]\u2014\u00a0where\u2019s Stephan and\u2014 where\u2019s Stephan? And uh, Tim [Jones, Jim Jones\u2019 adopted son], Jim [Jones, Jim Jones\u2019 adopted son], you uh, talk with him the schedule. I\u2019d like a place\u2014 I\u2019d like you to keep their cages clean, a little extra, \u2018cause school\u2019s<\/i> gonna come, and I want these children to do it, but I want you to follow up on them. Will you do that?<\/p>\n

Herman: <\/b>Yes.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Every day. I\u2019m gonna count<\/i> on you, to see that wa\u2014 we lose no more water here. People been going here, turning water on, had her over the side of the\u2014\u00a0had a hose<\/i> over the side of the, uh the riverbed, and there was a whole stream running down of our precious<\/i> water. And this is the driest season we\u2019ve ever had. So you gotta redeem<\/i> yourself now, man, someway. And the brother\u2019s quite right. Your time\u2014 uh, time can become a great enemy to you, unless you are fully<\/i> socialist, and most of the people in here don\u2019t know<\/i> socialism. And if you\u2019re full of that, it\u2019ll keep you straight<\/i> when nothing else will keep you straight. Your conscience Socialism is God. God is Socialism, and I am Principle Socialism, and that\u2019s what makes me God. But Socialism is more than just in a personal form. The deity of socialism is uh, impersonal and ever-present. And some of you see me too much after the flesh, (unintelligible phrase) see me after the flesh<\/i>. You uh\u2014 I can look right at you<\/i>, and you lie to me. You look right square in my face, and you see me call out to people, tell them the thoughts of their mind, you look right square at me and lie. And do it convincingly<\/i>. And I\u2019ve time and time again had people up like you, when they do stoutly deny, swear on everything sacred it wasn\u2019t true, (Pause) and I\u2019d show you uh, that they were lies, and you people still keep up\u2014\u00a0keep doing the same thing that they\u2019ve done. You\u2019re going to break down all<\/i> discipline, unless I use every<\/i> bit of my energy to watch for liars or to deal<\/i> with every liar that I\u2019m dealing with. (Pause) You can be a liar indirectly or directly. Some of you stage<\/i> things in\u2014 to defend<\/i> yourself, in council meetings, here or in Monday night meet\u2014 You stage set-ups to make yourself look<\/i> good. Whatever it is, it\u2019s still a form of treason. And I\u2019m afraid of it. I\u2019m getting so terrified of it, I don\u2019t look close to some people I ought to feel. People who put me<\/i> in a bad light (Pause) or attempt to, consciously or unconsciously, rather than to admit the one thing<\/i> that has been said. And I repeat, and no one can be any more honest than this with you.<\/p>\n

(Deliberate tone) I have never done anything with any of you, whatever it was at any time, that it was not to bring you to some growth. I never<\/i> take advantage of any human being. Never have made any human being do anything, so don\u2019t pose any kind of situations like that. But it makes me feel vo\u2014 grossly<\/i> uncomfortable\u2014 Maybe at the time, I can\u2019t tell you what I\u2019m doing<\/i>. But it\u2019s a testimony to your strength that I work with you, bring out things in your mind, let you see<\/i> yourself. Expose things about you to yourself<\/i> that\u2019ll make you stronger, to help others, because no one that doesn\u2019t know<\/i> themselves is not worth his salt. They can\u2019t lead anybody<\/i> at any time, unless they know themselves. And I don\u2019t see very much carryover here of what I\u2019d hoped (Pause) of really knowing oneself. I said, I\u2019m disappointed from Sunday to Monday night, I was disappointed. I was really disappointed, from Sunday until Monday night, in council situations that came back to my attention. (Pause) Not because anyone volunteered<\/i> it to me, or brought it to me, but because I had to get<\/i> it. And I\u2019m really lu\u2014 I\u2019m really weary with this, and I want to say that Father Jones is calm, but that\u2019s the most dangerous time. The calm come just before the storm. I\u2019m about ready to blow. Now I\u2019m\u2014 What I\u2019m going to blow<\/i> is, I\u2019m gonna take care of people that are going to be honorable. If I have to put six-foot high fence around here, and stop every<\/i> plan I had for outreach, and put an electric wire around here, I\u2019ll keep out the dogs, uh, and (stumbles over words) I\u2019m not talking about four-legged ones, \u2018cause they\u2019re sweet. I\u2019ll keep out all<\/i> of the rascals that are trying to do harm to those that want to work with me in principle<\/i>. Doesn\u2019t mean blind agreement with me, but work with principle<\/i>, give me their word and uh, share and share<\/i> alike. I\u2019m tired of being wa\u2014\u00a0a watchman on the helm. This place, you\u2019ve got to stand on guard of it\u2014 on top of it, night and day. (Pause) You say, no other church has to do that. Well, no other church ever did try to do anything about its dishonesty, just let its dishonesty grow and get so harri\u2014 heavy and thick that you couldn\u2019t do anything about it, so no one ever would<\/i> try to straighten out anything, \u2018cause if you started to straighten it out, you\u2019d have to tore the whole thing up<\/i>. That\u2019s how dishonest every movement\u2019s been, up until now. And this<\/i> movement can get that way overnight<\/i>. I have to watch it every minute. And if you let this go a year, it\u2019s\u2014\u00a0it\u2019s\u2014 it\u2019s gone.<\/p>\n

(Pause) Now I had\u2014 I had some things that\u2014\u00a0right in the\u2014\u00a0in the helm of council. This week, I ordered something, I had a traitor here, (Pause) a minister, and I ordered him uh, how to be handled. And I told sisters<\/i> how to handle him. (Pause) And I said, take that brother out and show him through senior citizen homes and so forth. But one of my own lieutenants\u2019 ego for a moment got between him and what was good, because a sister told him, Jim doesn\u2019t want that. He said, I said, it\u2019s gonna be. So I had to spend long<\/i>-distance calls today and get Sister Karen Layton to do some repair work, because of something that one\u2014 my closest<\/i> cooperation. And I feel I\u2019ve been let down by some of you that are in the closest circle. I\u2019m really disturbed. I can\u2019t\u2014 I can\u2019t go out and jump on this man, and let down the fallen ways. (Pause) I just jot it down. I\u2014\u00a0I knew this was coming, though I wasn\u2019t posted it was coming, so I made some notes to myself. (Pause) Let them in. Don\u2019t let them stand there at the door. Let \u2018em in. (Pause) I\u2019m not healing anybody in the sense that I\u2014 I\u2019ll be disrupted, but just let them move quietly. No<\/i> chatting now, tell them very warm\u2014\u00a0uh, kindly, no chitchatting at the door. No chitchatting. Don\u2019t\u2014 No, none of your amenities, none of your social amenities. I don\u2019t want you greeting anybody. You keep your mind up here, and don\u2019t you even look back there to see whom I\u2019m correcting. You all keep your faces up here. (Pause) Now, ordinarily, there\u2019s time for that, and we need to fill the atmosphere with love, but not\u2014\u00a0we\u2019re\u2014\u00a0we\u2019re in danger<\/i>. This movement\u2019s in danger. (Pause) And it\u2019s not in danger from without, but from within. (Pause) Alliances that are being formed within the movement.<\/p>\n

(Pause) We\u2014 I\u2019m Principle. The marriage should be to me. I don\u2019t need<\/i> that marriage, and I don\u2019t want<\/i> that marriage, but the office doesn\u2019t have anybody else to put in its position right now, so I\u2019m here, and it\u2014\u00a0the first<\/i> alliance and first<\/i> marriage should be to me. Too many of you people (Pause) follow someone else here, instead of me, as a basic ideal. And I\u2019m afraid<\/i> of it. I like<\/i> it, because it reduces some of my strain, my work. But you\u2019re here with other contacts. You\u2019re here because of some (Pause) uh\u2014 I don\u2019t know how to make this, some uh, some other hero. And there shouldn\u2019t be any heroes but Socialism anyway. You\u2014\u00a0you pursue<\/i> this work through somebody else. You follow through someone else. You make alliances with people in my own staff and council, thinking that will make you in. You do favors<\/i> for people in my council and staff, and I\u2019m gonna tell you, frankly, I don\u2019t think they\u2019re wise enough to always know what\u2019s going on. Many times, they are. But not always<\/i> are they wise enough to know, that they\u2019re being used<\/i>. Little courtesies\u2014 I saw one of them done, just not more than a few hours ago, the one of the members of my board. And all they were trying to do was manipulate you, and you didn\u2019t know it. You took it hook, line and sinker. (Pause) This is a terrible task we\u2019re called to do, to be honest amidst a dishonest day, a totally dishonest generation. (Pause) And you\u2019re gonna have to get convicted<\/i> of my honesty, or you\u2019re gonna have to get out of here. And all this kind of stuff, Herman, reveals to me, you\u2019re not convicted of my honesty. You wouldn\u2019t lie to me. You wouldn\u2019t do these games if you were convicted of my honesty. Now\u2014\u00a0By this, I mean, if you were convicted of the\u2014 (Pause) the full measure of my devotion, that I put this picture up there. Each of these men in that picture to some degree gave their last measure of devotion. (Pause) I\u2019d like you to talk it over and over and over, and you get it in your mind. (Pause)<\/p>\n

You see, I have to give so much of my\u2014 my body and my mind, that if anyone will be sick, it\u2019ll be I. If anyone will be baring infirmities or aging, it\u2019ll be me<\/i>, because I have to take on everybody\u2019s problems. If I didn\u2019t<\/i>, I would never age. I think I could really whip it. I\u2019ve got the keys. I\u2014 I\u2019ve really got the keys to immortality. But instead of keeping<\/i> it, I\u2019m opening it up as much as I can for you<\/i>. (Pause) But the risk<\/i> is, in opening it for you<\/i>, I lose it for myself. And I don\u2019t mind that whatsoever, if you<\/i> become what I am, in principle. If you become the kind of sensitive being that I am, then I\u2019m happy to lose my life. (Pause) Some of you think it\u2019s easy being God, you (unintelligible word) I can help people, I can help myself. Well, I can\u2019t. There might be such a thing that I would be drawn on by such e\u2014\u00a0number of disloyalties as this, (Pause) or the disloyalties that I\u2019ve seen in the last three days, (Pause) that I could have a stroke<\/i>. Instructions are given. I will never permit being re\u2014 kept alive with a stroke. I will not<\/i> allow it. Are you willing to do that? Some people recover from a stroke. I will not take\u2014 It\u2019s only given a certain limited time, if, through hypocrisy and dishonesty and disloyalty, I am overdrawn<\/i> and I am for any reason paralyzed<\/i> or disa\u2014 disabled, there are only a matter of hours<\/i> for it to get corrected, or I\u2019m to be removed from the scene, and my mind will make its transmigration, its transmission, into another mind that I\u2019ve\u2014\u00a0into another body that I\u2019ve already selected. We\u2019ve gone\u2014 already gone over that, (Pause) that there\u2019ll be someone else setting in this seat. (Pause) Now, I\u2019m not going to sit and let that happen easily. I\u2019m getting mighty<\/i> fed up with this, \u2018cause I\u2019m not dying for principle. I\u2019m dialing for crap<\/i>. When I see this<\/i> kind of stuff, I\u2019m not dying for principle. I\u2019m not laying<\/i> down my life to save humanity, if humanity doesn\u2019t lift itself up. If you don\u2019t become what I am\u2014 and I\u2019m saying it to every blessed one of you, \u2018cause you\u2014 I saw, and (stumbles over words) I\u2019m not gonna free anyone in that council, I\u2019m not gonna free a one<\/i>, because I think I\u2019m close enough to some of you to say, there wasn\u2019t a one before that council last night, didn\u2019t play games, one sort or another. You don\u2019t level with me, or even in some cases, try to put me in a bad spot<\/i>. (Pause) Try to get around rules<\/i> and laws<\/i>. It\u2019s fed up with\u2014\u00a0You know you can\u2019t quote anything unless you say who it is. You know<\/i> that\u2019s the rule. (Pause) And as I said, just this case, right now there\u2019s some charge here, I don\u2019t know, I\u2019m going\u2014 I\u2019m going to ask the brother just to try to show you what kind of principle we have. Man who I trust second to none, (Pause) if brother did this\u2014 I want to find out if he did this, \u2018cause he did wrong<\/i> if he did it. (Pause) And we want his words<\/i> on it. We have no prior\u2014\u00a0we\u2019re just getting his\u2014 his response right now. He\u2019s over there working hard<\/i>, uh, every day. (Pause) But around four\u2014<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I feel Archie made a statement last night that he should have\u2014 shouldn\u2019t have made. Something with critical\u2014\u00a0made critical of, uh\u2014\u00a0made\u2014 a criticism made about one of the councilors, namely Karen. When we asked who said, he refused to say<\/i>, so I assumed that you had said it, and told him that I was definitely assuming that you had said this, and he didn\u2019t deny that you had said this. I got on him for this. As I said, he shouldn\u2019t have said it, since it made me very paranoid. Though I told<\/i> him that I did<\/i> feel the statement was true. Other council members got on him too. (Pause) I feel Archie should have at least tried to deny that you said it, whether you did or not<\/i>. Then he should have said he was sorry for saying it. But he wouldn\u2019t deny it. Nor would he apologize for anything. Today around 4 PM, Archie called and said Jack [most likely Jack Beam] was the one who said it. He did admit it was a lack of character on his part for bringing this up to me. I didn\u2019t see this part now\u2014 (Pause) (Casual tone) Oh dear. He just started crying after a while, and told me how hard he works and how people don\u2019t appreciate\u2014 He said I should allow him to be a human being. He did<\/i> apologize and ask that he c\u2014\u00a0what he could do to make it right. I told him to apologize to you, \u2018cause I thought it was terrible that he let you thi\u2014\u00a0let me think all night and all day that you had said it. Well, he hasn\u2019t had much time to take care of it. This part was on the part\u2014<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>(Voice too soft)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>The other council members\u2014 What?<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>(Voice too soft)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>No?<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>(Voice too soft)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>No? Why, what was he going to say about this, brother, what did Archie say? I\u2019ve got big problems here dealing with him. It\u2019s the core of the work. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Ijames:<\/b> I\u2014 I said it. I\u2014 And I shouldn\u2019t have said it, as I said to her<\/i>. And I also apologize to our (unintelligible word). (Pause) The fact that uh\u2014 (Pause) she began to press<\/i> me was why it came to the point that I did, in terms of my emotions, and I\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>What you should\u2019ve said is this<\/i>. And you know this. Because you\u2019re a principled person, gotten a lot more principle in grasp, but in much more responsibility. You cannot be\u2014 At this stage, uh, the boat is rocking, you can\u2019t be uh, indulgent in being a human being, \u2018cause there too many human beings here. So you can\u2019t be a human being. That statement uh\u2014 not crying was not in order, nor was that request that you be a human being. Because we\u2019re in trouble<\/i> here. This old ship of state\u2019s in trouble. It\u2019ll make it, but it\u2019s in trouble. You shouldn\u2019t have said uh\u2014 anyone<\/i> said it\u2014\u00a0you should [have said], I think, Karen, that you are good at getting people to do uh, work, delegating work\u2014<\/p>\n

Ijames:<\/b> I agree wi\u2014\u00a0I recognize that, and that was wrong\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>\u2014but you uh, sometimes re\u2014\u00a0uh (Pause) or something uh\u2014 I\u2019m not going to quote all the phrase, not that it\u2019s anything terribly, terribly indicting, it\u2019s just\u2014\u00a0I want to say something to you people, too. I\u2019ll take from you trust with a purpose. I don\u2019t like cussing, just to be hearing it, (Pause) \u2018cause you\u2019re going to end up cussing at the wrong time, and I know exactly when to do it, and when not to. Some of you get the idea, that just because I<\/i> cuss, that that is a kind of a grand<\/i> license to cuss anytime<\/i> you please, say anything you want to, just as vulgar and foul-mouthed as you want to be<\/i>. Now, I am not foul-mouthed. I\u2019m trying to break down hypocrisy. I only cuss to break down hypocrisy. Mother [Marceline] LeTourneau said \u2014 and she was a classic example of it \u2014 she said, when I was so upset about this cussing, I realized it was self-righteousness. It\u2019s hypocrisy. She got the message. And she\u2014 I\u2019m not cussing<\/i> for her anymore. I don\u2019t need<\/i> to cuss for Mother LeTourneau. But there may be somebody else<\/i> that\u2019s a good soul in the making that I cuss for. But what are you<\/i> cussing for, is the question. (Pause) Just to cuss. As a\u2014\u00a0And down there at the scho\u2014 the cur\u2014\u00a0the kids can tell you, when I say anything to my children, or anything I said, I say, let\u2019s keep it\u2014\u00a0let\u2019s keep it c\u2014 clear. Let\u2019s keep the language improved. And we do<\/i> it there. And it\u2019s very hard for these children to understand that. I\u2019m not talking, addressing that to you, Archie, that\u2019s\u2014 I\u2019m on another tangent now. \u2018Cause you\u2019re certainly not one of those that uh, is a terrible offender in that. But I did<\/i> wish to say, it\u2014 there is some cuss words here involved, which I don\u2019t think there\u2019s any point in repeating<\/i>. Some of you get a glee<\/i> in it. You just get a joyful glee. And uh, at times, I think there\u2019s a necessary freedom of repression. (Pause) But do it through me vicariously. Don\u2019t go out and do your<\/i> thing. If you need to hear something, and you need a little laugh, you laugh here while we\u2019ve got a closed, controlled door, don\u2019t you go outside in the houses and start cussing, and uh, creating animosities, because you don\u2019t know how to break hypocrisy, or you don\u2019t know how to break self-righteousness. I am the one knows how to do that, (Pause) and uh, it\u2019s a tough job to do it right. And if anybody can do it, I can do it. You can\u2019t<\/i> do it. You\u2019re only just going to create more disharmony by your, your language, and so I would uh\u2014 I\u2019d cool it.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> (mike cuts in) Father, may I\u2014\u00a0Father, may I say\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Now, what I\u2019m going to say to you, I want\u2014 I\u2019ve got a responsibility. To that effect, (Pause) now that it\u2019s out, and you want my opinion, and I don\u2019t think you should have said what you<\/i> said. I don\u2019t think you should have said, that leaves me any\u2014 I don\u2019t think I should have been discussed. I don\u2019t think you should have reacted to it. I think you should have kept it cool, and if you\u2019d had more faith in me<\/i>, you would have kept your cool and talked to him. So now that it\u2019s out, I\u2019ll let you all know where I (unintelligible word), yes, I think it\u2019s true. But I\u2019m not the author of it. But I think that\u2019s true<\/i>, that you relegate work well. But sometimes you shift<\/i> work, (Pause) and uh\u2014 now I\u2019m not the author of this\u2014 this idea.<\/p>\n

Ijames:<\/b> That\u2019s right. That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>And I\u2019m put in a bad spot here. But\u2014 so you won\u2019t<\/i> feel that paranoia, I\u2019ll tell you right now, and I also think that if everybody worked as well as you<\/i> did, I\u2019d be in pretty good shape<\/i>, if they all worked as well as you did.<\/p>\n

Ijames:<\/b> Mmm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>You still\u2014 But it\u2019s the old thing of, from whom much is given, much is required. And uh, you uh\u2014 But you never get out of it, \u2018cause uh, as soon as you shift, I\u2019m always there. When you try to shift, now I sent you home early, and I came in. The very night I come home\u2014 come in, you went home early.<\/p>\n

Woman\u2019s voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Yeah, I know, but it still works that way. Any way\u2014 Any way it go\u2014 Any way it goes, you\u2014 you\u2014 you\u2019ll get caught in it, so, she gets caught in it, some of the rest of you don\u2019t get caught in it, what I\u2019m trying to say is, the more you uh, have responsibility, the more consciousness you have, the more these things come to your attention. You just get caught in it quick. (Pause) There was disorganization here, (Pause) and people didn\u2019t know what they were doing<\/i> here. And some of the other letter-writing people, when the leader leaves, uh, there\u2019re just people running, and time wasted. That letter-writing thing is a\u2014\u00a0is\u2014\u00a0is go\u2014 it\u2019s saved us time and again<\/i>. Through following the instructions of writing some person, when we got into some trouble, we\u2019d made a friend someplace, because I\u2019d had some prior prophetic awareness, and we\u2019d made a friend, we could call on that friend, be he a Senator, or whoever<\/i>, we could call on that. I don\u2019t mean a friend in a real sense. I\u2019m talking about somebody who saw us as votes<\/i>. But, as I said, if everybody worked as hard as she did, it would be fine. But the whole issue in front of the council, with two<\/i> strong people \u2014\u00a0two of my stronger<\/i> people \u2014 debating what I said or didn\u2019t say, is perfectly<\/i> asinine. And you should not have made this statement that uh\u2014\u00a0(Pause) although I don\u2019t\u2014 (slurs words as he reads) it made me very paranoid<\/i>. But I don\u2019t think that\u2019s<\/i> just the way you said it. Paranoid about me<\/i>. I think your implication was, you were paranoid about me<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Woman\u2019s voice too soft<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Everything we do \u2014 and I\u2019m going to say this, just, I\u2019ll just to be right down the line, so we can get it \u2014 everything we do, we don\u2019t put it right in the right li\u2014 line. What you\u2019re really<\/i> saying is, you didn\u2019t trust me. (Pause) Just like was said, when we got on council about homosexuality, one of you back there. You set up a kind of a set-up. And you tried to divert the situation to somebody else. (Pause) We set up things to make ourselves look good, then I\u2019m tired of it, because I\u2019m not trying to do it. I\u2019m only trying to keep this office alive. Now if somebody else wants to take this office, tonight, I\u2019m ready for you to do<\/i> it, and I\u2019ll be glad<\/i> for you to do it, and I\u2019ll make you<\/i> look good, \u2018cause I\u2019m mighty<\/i> tired of being the bad guy, and happen to be sick<\/i> for hours because of the hate<\/i> that comes my way, and taking this thing in. I don\u2019t like<\/i> sickness. I\u2019m just like you. I don\u2019t like to feel bad. I don\u2019t like to feel bad. Right now, I feel bad. Herman\u2019s (unintelligible word) got his subtle. His\u2014 his reaction\u2019s a subconscious thing, it\u2014 but it\u2019s there<\/i>. I get negative energy from you. I\u2019m mad. Or I\u2019m embarrassed. Whatever. All of these things, whether embarrassment or mad, they come back at me as fiery darts. And I\u2019m<\/i> tired of it. And uh, I don\u2019t have the characterlessness to withdraw<\/i>. So you\u2019re<\/i> going to have to withdraw. (Pause) And I mean withdraw clear out of this country, so you<\/i> better prepare to know where you\u2019re going to go, if you get in any more trouble. You better make it clear, \u2018cause you\u2019re going to have to give up that job, and you\u2019re going to have to go clear across this United States, (Pause) \u2018cause I\u2019m not going to have any more trouble around here. (Pause) (Stumbles over words) If I get my mind, uh, coordinated\u2014<\/p>\n

Woman speaks softly.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>It was an orda\u2014\u00a0an ordeal last night that uh, as you know. (Pause) And we have ordeals<\/i> around here. We got\u2014\u00a0We got life and death matters. We got political matters. (Pause) I can\u2019t get through your head, (unintelligible word \u2014 sounds like “John”?), the life of my children. I\u2019m involved in far more serious work than is in this room. (Pause) And I don\u2019t appreciate what you hold<\/i> in your mind. I don\u2019t care what you want to tell\u2014 you can tell whatever you darn well please, whatever I have done<\/i>, (Pause) I have done it, and I\u2019m tired of some of you trying to make exceptions. There is no exceptions. (Pause) Whatever I have done with you has never<\/i> been for selfish reason, it\u2019s only to bring you<\/i> to some point. I love you all. And I love some of you in such a way that as to give you a responsibility. You had to mature. You had to evolve.<\/p>\n

One male:<\/b> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(Pause) And I\u2019m tired\u2014 I\u2019m mighty tired of this game, saying, well in here, dah-dah-dah-dah, he says this, but didn\u2019t mean me. Or making some kind of a set-up that it doesn\u2019t mean me. I meant you. (Pause) I meant you<\/i>. (Pause) I repeat what I say, I have never based a relationship (voice fades for balance of sentence). And my wife has been the first to say that. (Pause) I have based my love for her or for anyone else on giving them what I felt they needed. They have in return supported socialism in one measure or another, but I have not needed anyone. I feel that is capitalistic. I will not allow that to build in me. (Pause) I feel it\u2019s very unfair, to me. I\u2019m not expecting that of you, but I don\u2019t<\/i> expect anyone to put me in that light anymore. I don\u2019t need. All I need is to be [Henry David] Thoreau. I need peace<\/i>. And I don\u2019t need people<\/i>. (Pause) [I] Can\u2019t go into a situation where there\u2019s\u2014 I want to go in\u2014\u00a0and I enjoy some situations more than I do others. \u2018S true. Not that I enjoy the people any more, but I go in some situations\u2014 where I visited, uh, the homes in town today. (Voice fades) \u2014here. Visited all their homes, \u2018round through the area. And the only real en\u2014 pleasure I had today was Liane Harris, who\u2019s in a cast. I walked in, and she said, “Wonderful<\/i>.” You\u2014\u00a0And then she\u2014<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

[Beginning of Q 955<\/a>]<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> \u2014started in telling me beautiful things. (Pause) Said, I want to work and she says, Rheaviana [Beam] just think I\u2019m not working, uh, I\u2019m working too much on budgets, and she says, I want to work there and she\u2014 (tape fades out; edit?) Little girl\u2019s having this corrective spinal surgery, cast clear up to her neck, \u2018cause she was born, one of these things of, you know, purity of races, we gotta keep pure, so she\u2014 her parent married Jewish, and pure Jewish and, and they followed the Hebrew line, you know, are they particular national Hebrew strain that she was a part of, so she\u2019s got all kinds of genetic weaknesses. She\u2019s got a weak back, weak heart, she\u2019da died if I hadn\u2019t corrected her heart. Her hearing, all this is (tape fades; edit?) business is, breaks down every time, she\u2019s got a lovely mind, but her emotions were not really<\/i> in good shape when she came here. That\u2019s been a miracle of happening here. She was a self-centered person, and now she\u2019s become a most<\/i> outgoing soul. And Rheaviana out of love for her didn\u2019t want her to work, but she just said, I want to work<\/i>, I want to help<\/i> you, said I\u2019m looking<\/i> forward to being (stumbles over words) in church, she said even though I\u2019m in\u2014 in a cast, I\u2014 I can come<\/i>. I can come to church. (Pause) Her whole role of life was\u2014 was cheerful. (Pause) (Tape fade; edit?) \u2014enjoyed the whole live long day, because\u2014 not that I didn\u2019t enjoy other pla\u2014 other things, but there\u2019d be sporadic things said, or there\u2019d be hurtful things said, one to another, or there\u2019d be fusses<\/i>, ri\u2014 ri\u2014 right down cussin\u2019 outbreak in front of me, between children. Cussin\u2019<\/i> each other out, right in front of me. And that\u2014 that\u2019s always helpful to my peace. I\u2019m sure you think I enjoy that. (Pause) I laugh sometimes because I don\u2019t know what else to do. I\u2019d go mad if I didn\u2019t laugh. I smile, because I don\u2019t want any more struggle. I just say, “Bless you.” I\u2019m tired<\/i> of fights. I don\u2019t need fights. I\u2019ve had them for\u2014 all these\u2014 lo these many generations, too many of them. And I said it, yesterday, I said it to a couple of my children, I\u2014 (tape cut off; edit?) street add\u2014\u00a0home yesterday. (Stumbles over words) A true<\/i> follower of mine will be the one that goes the extra mile for peace. I said, the one that loves me most<\/i>, will\u2014 loves the principle that I am will be the one that swallows their carnal pride and goes furthest for peace. Not the one that wants a tit-for-tat, actual breakdown of every little thing, \u2018cause you\u2019ve never get some people (tape fade) reconciled. The true<\/i> follower of mine will be the one that makes peace. Swallows his pride. So I talked to some of the young ones coming on in\u2014 uh, today in leadership, you gonna\u2014 if you want to lead, you\u2019ve got to take guff, (tape fades) crow, you\u2019ve got to make people, you know, save face for them, and it\u2019s a miserable job. And you can\u2019t hardly be honest with your own staff. I did here tonight, but\u2014\u00a0and I can take that with honesty, I\u2019m sure, Archie, but I don\u2019t know what you\u2019re going to do with the honesty, \u2018cause (unintelligible word) jump in now, uh, he jumped on one of his own workers. So now that shows there\u2019re nobody\u2014 nobody faultless, so I\u2019ll do what I want to do. (Pause) So it\u2019s a very tough thing. What\u2019s going on back there?<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Help\u2014 you need some assistance?<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Sighs) (Pause) And I\u2014 and I say this lovingly to all of you, to every guard I have, every security personnel I have, (undertone) I have another thing here affecting someone not immediately present, so I won\u2019t go into it. (Pause) (Quiet voice) Until you love me enough to be square with me, (Pause) until you love me enough (tape fades) follow my example \u2014 and if you don\u2019t know my example, I\u2019d get out of here, \u2018cause I, I sure got the backwash from last night, some of you don\u2019t know my example. You haven\u2019t realized<\/i> how necessary it was when you\u2019re in various consciousness planes (tape fade; edit) for whatever medium I had, to express love to you through whatever medium I had to express love to you. It may seem like harsh methods. (tape fade; edit?) \u2014I\u2019ve had to, I\u2019ve been trying to bring you<\/i> to love, to understanding, to feeling, to knowing yourself. (Pause) Now I\u2019m saying this tonight, and I mean it, and it may mean the dismissal of my body. I want every gun laid down. (Pause) I don\u2019t want a person to protect<\/i> me in any way on these properties inside or out, until you work as hard (tape fade) inside. So let (tape fade) and lay guards do\u2014 I want the guards down. And I\u2019ll take my chances. (Pause) And I know the risk of that, because enemies are within (tape fade), talk to one and talk to another, and then now, say it\u2019s open day. It\u2019s open day. (More emphatic) The guards are off. And I\u2019m gonna take that chance. The guards are off. (Pause) Something\u2019s gotta jolt this family someway at someplace. (Pause) Well, honey, you won\u2019t get anything done, you\u2014 you say you don\u2019t think you can be quiet and let that happen. Well, what do you\u2014 what\u2019re you going to do to get people to do (tape fade) right. What\u2014 what\u2019s going\u2014 what you gonna do to get people do right? Just talk? (Pause) Talk. Talk, council, council\u2014<\/p>\n

Marceline: <\/b>(fades in) \u2014you giving your life, if you can\u2019t get them to\u2014 (tape fades). I\u2019m for you pulling out. (Pause) This is where I<\/i> am. (Pause) If these people cannot be loyal enough, if you feel that they (tape fades) out there to guard you, then what\u2019re you giving your life for \u2018em for?<\/p>\n

Voices:<\/b> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, I think there\u2019re people here that are<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Marceline: <\/b>Well, then, can\u2019t they guard you?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> There\u2014 there\u2019re some of them (fades)<\/p>\n

Marceline: <\/b>I\u2019ll<\/i> stand out there and guard you. I\u2019ll\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> No, uh\u2014 no, no, I don\u2019t want nobody guarding. I don\u2019t\u2014\u00a0I don\u2019t want\u2014 I\u2019ve made it (tape fade) \u2014effecting verses, I want everybody to do self-analysis. There\u2019re no guards. I\u2019m\u2014 I\u2019m on that, and I mean<\/i> it. (Pause) We\u2014 (tape fade; edit?) not gonna be any guards.<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>(Near tears) I\u2019m sorry for what I did, Father, I set a pur\u2014 poor example, and I\u2019m sorry. And I\u2019m trying to learn, and I think the council is wonderful, and they do work hard, and I wouldn\u2019t even be where I wor\u2014 I wouldn\u2019t be (tape fade). I\u2019m sorry\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> \u2014fession, you know more than anything, I just want deeds and actions. (Pause) Deeds and actions. I\u2019m tired<\/i> of words, I am so tired of words, I cannot tell you how tired of words. Your words are not so bad, you make growth. But I don\u2019t to hear anybody\u2019s<\/i> words, I don\u2019t want a whole line upon line of up here, giving me a lot of confessions tonight. I\u2019ve had confessions for centuries. (Pause) Yes, I, uh\u2014 (unintelligible name)<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b>(fades in) \u2014want everyone to say.<\/p>\n

2nd male: <\/b>Well, I uh\u2014 (tape fades) I also occasionally use the language<\/i>. (Pause) Think that the language of mine in the, in the text of the statement last night. However\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I wasn\u2019t\u2014\u00a0I wasn\u2019t referring to your language, I said that\u2014<\/p>\n

2nd male: <\/b>Sure. However\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> You\u2019re being defensive. I wasn\u2019t\u2014 I wasn\u2019t saying that to you, and I said that, and you shouldna even brought that subject up.<\/p>\n

2nd male: <\/b>Sorry.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Struggles for words) I\u2019m\u2014 in a very plane of bu\u2014 bald honesty. I\u2019ve got to keep it here. Only way you can shock<\/i> these people is to gi\u2014 bring honesty right to home. Risk my life<\/i>. Do something drastic with the\u2014 with the trusted followers, the trusted staff. Make their sins shows. Then take the chance that somebody else will use it for point of rebellion. (Pause) You\u2019ve driven people out of here, in this church, for your\u2014 having your own thing. Allowing rebellion to breed in your own home. Having your own group of friends and encouraging them by your<\/i> rebelliousness. And we\u2019ve lost people in this group, because they\u2019re not a tight-knit (Pause) (tape fade; edit?) in other words, you turn people out to alcoholism and drugs, you\u2019ve turned them out to all kinds of hell, because (Emphatic) you<\/i> would not uphold this office. I\u2019m not a person. I\u2019m an office. (Pause) An office. My deeds and actions by words. Little rebellions of all sorts and varieties. Little snide remarks. Rebellion. Grimacing looks. Or setting up stage plays to try to make yourself look better than you are. Over the same stupid business. Much of it\u2019s over\u2014 all over on sex. You think somehow that if a person didn\u2019t uh, (tape fade) sexual feelings, that makes them not a, um, strong person, or if they had a very strong mixture of something else, that doesn\u2019t make them a strong person. I don\u2019t know what in the world sex has to (tape fade), but you have been victimized<\/i> by the worst brainwashing that have evers\u2014 has ever been known, capitalist brainwashing, that\u2019s made you think that you got to protect your sexual identity (tape fade) as, and that\u2014\u00a0but you still<\/i> try to protect it, one way or the other, on the floor<\/i>, or after you leave the floor. (Pause) (Quiet tone) And if one protects it, everybody\u2019s going to lose uh, the mark and the prize of high calling. They\u2019re gonna lose it. Because unless honesty\u2019s maintained one hundred percent, it won\u2019t be ob\u2014 ob\u2014 obtained at all. (Pause) The chain isn\u2019t any stronger than its weakest link, not a bit stronger. And we got more than one weak link. It\u2019s the best organization on earth. It\u2019s the best. Best group of people on earth. More honest people on earth. Get a straight answer. Get straight answers from people here. I thought today, someone who said to Peter, strong statement from (Pause) Joy. Very strong statement, about him holdin\u2019 his head down in the other organization. And I thought well, that\u2019s wonderful, he can say\u2014 she can say that to you in that sense, to tell you that, why did you hold your head down in the organization, because you knew too much? I thought, well, that\u2019s beautiful that she can say that, but I also think that you\u2014 some of the words you use, you don\u2019t need<\/i> to say. Like when I said I was going to jump on you, I don\u2019t think you shoulda said the way\u2014 way\u2014 jump on you which way. I don\u2019t think you shoulda said that. That\u2014 that\u2014 that (tape fade) that, when you said that to me, \u2018cause I\u2014 I\u2014 I\u2019m\u2014 I\u2019m trying to lift out of this sex plane, I\u2019ve never been in sex with anybody at all, except for their own good. Nobody. \u2018Cause I\u2019m not\u2014 I don\u2019t\u2014 I\u2014 that\u2019s the truth. A hundred percent.<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (tape fade) \u2014bad mouth, your bad mouth, your bad words, your vulgar tone, I don\u2019t<\/i> care, but I do like your straightforwardedness, if you can also season that with love and (tape fade) kindness too, because the straightforwardness<\/i> was\u2014\u00a0was\u2014 was very (tape fade), but when you say, you, uh, you think<\/i> that I\u2019m not\u2014 I\u2014 I\u2014 I suppose by my language one thinks that I don\u2019t have embarrassment. I\u2019m an office. I speak what has to be spoken. (tape fade) Yes, that\u2019s all right. (Stumbles over words) know it. But a lot<\/i> of you think that uh, because I can say anything, I don\u2019t have any feeling<\/i>. I speak<\/i> what has to be spoken. But there\u2019s some things that don\u2019t fit in to my frame of reference. (Pause) When you ask me\u2014 I think the sister was\u2014\u00a0I\u2019m using you as a point of illustration. It isn\u2019t the worst thing that\u2019s happened today by any means. I\u2019m just trying everything that comes to my mind, let it come out. (Pause) You sa\u2014 (tape fade) You ask me what I would do if I didn\u2019t like something, I said I\u2019d jump<\/i> you. That\u2019s how it came up. I\u2019d jump on<\/i> you. (Pause) And I meant I\u2019d give you a verbal lashing, just like you give everybody else.<\/p>\n

Scattered laughter.<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>(Voice too soft) \u2014confess my sin and not tell a little lie about it.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, that\u2019s good. That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n

(Edit?)<\/p>\n

Archie Ijames: <\/b>I heartily concur with everything that\u2019s come from the office tonight, and I see nothing but absolute fairness. Something I don\u2019t<\/i> receive anyplace else. And I\u2019m grateful for it.<\/p>\n

Woman in crowd: <\/b>(Voice too far away)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Thank you. And now that\u2014 that\u2014 that\u2019s\u2014 that\u2019s real current thinking. Now, you\u2019re in mainstream<\/i> when you\u2019re talking like that, you\u2019re getting us back on course.<\/p>\n

Marceline: <\/b>Um, Archie, I would like to say one thing. I feel that, since the whole council was there when this happened, that calling Karen and apologizing to Jim was not enough, the whole council should have been involved.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well\u2014<\/p>\n

Marceline: <\/b>You know\u2014 Of course, it was brought up here tonight.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Marceline: <\/b>But uh, naturally it probably\u2014 it\u2014 it was refle\u2014 they<\/i> naturally would think, if Jim was talking about Karen, they would\u2014 he might talk about them, that set up a\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> All of the ramifications of\u2014 the ramifications of it are very<\/i> very uh, extensive, but the fact has been that some of you have not been in a position for me to talk at the time, and pointed positions \u2014 not in this reference \u2014 but pointed things have had to be made<\/i>, and I might so\u2014 said it to Karen or to Archie or to Jack, that has gotta be taken care of, because, at times, I can only take so much antagonism. But I\u2019m gonna quit it. I\u2019m gonna take all the risks that can be. I\u2019m gonna tell you everything I think. And boy, that\u2019s gonna be rough. (Pause) That\u2019s gonna be rough. I\u2019m gonna tell you just exactly like I see it. Just like (unintelligible word) say with Simon, who\u2019s new. She\u2019s told right, Simon, you covered sin in that old organization. You covered it. And you shouldn\u2019t have. You shouldna done it. You shoulda broke<\/i> before you did. And you know<\/i> that\u2019s right. And that\u2019s \u2014 I\u2019m gonna just tell it just as straight as I know how \u2014 you should\u2014 you shouldna covered the thing, and uh, just as I said to Valerie, she shouldna covered that thing with Father Divine. Somebody shoulda exposed him long ago, before people put up forty and fifty years of their life, they shoulda been told, long, long ago, somebody<\/i> shoulda told what they knew. Because if somebody had told what they knew, long ago, lot of people would have been saved a whole lot of misery. And I mean a whole<\/i> lot of misery. \u2018Cause I know children that\u2019ve gone through great misery because they did what they thought was right. They didn\u2019t go when their children<\/i> died. They didn\u2019t go when their mothers<\/i> died. They never went near them, never walked by them, wouldn\u2019t speak to them, because everybody kept silent. Now I want nobody<\/i> to keep silent. I\u2019ve got nothing<\/i> on earth \u2014 you\u2019re trying to manipulate me \u2014 I\u2019ve got nothing on earth I\u2019m afraid to hide. I said I can do anything for socialism. Do anything. By inclination, the only thing I can do is to be an aggressive heterosexual with a man or a woman, I don\u2019t care, whatever you want\u2014 be\u2014 be\u2014\u00a0you be the woman, I would do that for socialism. Anything else I\u2019d do further than that would have to be purely (pause) purely because I\u2014 I\u2014 I\u2019m willing to do<\/i> it for socialism. But I would do anything in the world to save you. If some bunch of fools wanted to take me as the last living sexual identity, wanted to crucify that, I\u2019d let them do it very quickly, rather than fight with them, \u2018cause I know that preparing my body, keeping my body alive for you is far more important than fighting somebody off from raping me. That wouldn\u2019t be of the least<\/i> consequence to me, but if you want me\u2014 if\u2014 my orientation I have told you is that. I\u2019ve told you what my orientation is. I\u2019m not interested in anything else but being a\u2014 a\u2014\u00a0a\u2014\u00a0I\u2019m a driving, thriving leader, a principled<\/i> leader. (Pause) Principled. (Pause) Yes, Valerie.<\/p>\n

Woman in crowd speaks too softly.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> No, darlin\u2019, I\u2019m\u2014 I\u2019m gone tell you\u2014 I\u2019m tellin\u2019 you\u2014 I\u2019m tellin\u2019 you just as straight as I know how. (Stumbles over words) Valerie, Valerie, Valerie? Listen. I think you\u2019re wonderful. I like you, but that point, I don\u2019t care who<\/i> told me such uh\u2014 malarkey as that. When he put you in the bed (Pause) I\u2019da said right<\/i> then, something is wrong. Something is wrong, if he\u2019s tellin\u2019 everybody else not to be having sex and to live evangelically, not even touch<\/i>, can\u2019t even have any undue mixing, and I find that to be not even holding uh, anybody\u2019s hands<\/i>\u2014 Of course, uh, as some said, they had the courage to go ahead and hold<\/i> hands, which I think is\u2014 is good<\/i>, but I think in\u2014 (stumbles over words) if you look back on it, we\u2019ll never be strong unless we face it. You should have at that moment said well, that\u2019s not the kind of God I want. A God that tells you “No”\u2014 to say something\u2014 Don\u2019t you say something, or if you do, you won\u2019t get any more. That showed he had an ego bigger than the mountain<\/i>. Uh, anybody that would say that\u2014 I wouldn\u2019t dream<\/i> of saying that. Nor would most of us in here say, well, now, here, I\u2019ve given you something, and as you said, it was a miserable experience sexually, according to your interpretation, and you didn\u2019t wish<\/i> to uh, you didn\u2019t wish to repeat<\/i> it. You didn\u2019t wish<\/i> to repeat it. So the\u2014 the uh, uh, the fact that what he said to you, that\u2019s the thing I took issue with, is\u2014 did I bear record right? I\u2014 that he said that uh, if you\u2019d told it, you\u2019d never get it again.<\/p>\n

Valerie: <\/b>That\u2019s right, yes, Father dear.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, that\u2019s when I woulda been (clicks tongue). I mighta been\u2014 I\u2014 And I empathize with you. I empathize with this thing, the build-up of God. I\u2014 I completely<\/i> empathize, of him being God, and\u2014 but I don\u2019t understand how God would be privileged to do things that his people are not privileged to do. I just don\u2019t understand that. It never made\u2014 It doesn\u2019t make any sense to me, how you people were to break every<\/i> affection, every relationship\u2014 Now if he\u2019da said I\u2019m helping you to come (Pause) to sar\u2014 sharing, and he did this with a pointed, uh, purpose\u2014 but to say, you\u2019ll get no more of<\/i> it, I don\u2019t understand this. (Pause) I just don\u2019t understand what he was doing, other than\u2014 other than using you\u2014<\/p>\n

Valerie: <\/b>I don\u2019t un\u2014 I\u2014\u00a0(tape clicks on) either, Father. But (struggles for words) as soon as I found out that he wasn\u2019t God, then the Spirit brought it forth. You know, I didn\u2019t speak as a person. You know the Spirit brought that forth.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes, yes.<\/p>\n

Valerie: <\/b>The Spirit told it, not me as a person.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes, I understand. You need for honesty, and I think you did right, then to implement that by telling the world about it, back there. That\u2019s where they need to hear it. They need to\u2014 they ought to hear the whole thing<\/i> back here. (Pause) (Sighs) Well, of course, but uh, you\u2014 (tape fade) cannot uh\u2014 one thing you must not<\/i> do is to hold feelings against someone when they have opened up. (Pause) Our hindsight is always better\u2019n our foresight. Our foresight better\u2019n our hindsight? Whatever, I don\u2019t know. I\u2019m not a philosopher tonight. (Pause) Yes, I guess that\u2019s the way it is. Hindsight is better than foresight. Lot of things we woulda done differently, if we hada been able to do it differently. But now that it\u2019s done<\/i> \u2014 and I appreciate the ones over there in that home, for the most part I don\u2019t see any kind of tensions. Things are better over there, aren\u2019t they, for you? There been no tensions shown to you for your\u2014 your confession? That\u2019s the way it ought to be. Whether someone approved of it or not, uh, that\u2014 that they should uh, be that way. We should be loving, and we should be forgiving, and we should be\u2014 people have to go the extra mile with\u2014 all of you. You\u2019re sure as the world can go an extra mile for somebody else for uh, somebody else, \u2018cause all\u2014 all of you not angels. I don\u2019t see any angels budding wings around here. I mean, I don\u2019t see anybody ready to fly off, so we got to be patient with everybody<\/i>. And uh, this\u2014 this we\u2014 we are determined to do. But I\u2014 I\u2019m just trying to be as s\u2014 straight as I know. Deal<\/i> with things\u2014 \u2018Course, I have\u2014 and my loyalty. There\u2019s one thing too, I admire, is a principled loyalty (Pause) that will go along with something. (Pause) But if you know it\u2019s error, then you should (tape edit?) stand by it until the end of your days. If you\u2019re loyal to something, and (tape fade) right to be dishonest then, then be dishonest all the way. But uh\u2014 I don\u2019t\u2014 I don\u2019t feel that uh, (Pause)<\/p>\n

(Sighs) (Under breath) Well, I never heard why\u2014 (Normal voice) talk and chat and tiddle and fiddle, read and hunt. (Pause) (Stricter tone) One thing I will say, too, that I don\u2019t appreciate out of some of you. (Pause) Ah, listen, and gi\u2014 give me your attention. You newer people. When I expose my honesty and cut off people\u2014 we lost members the other night, we lost, I don\u2019t know, 20, 25 people who didn\u2019t come back. One lady from Sacramento wrote me the nastiest letter you ever read in your day. I know<\/i> that law or justice will get her, but I don\u2019t take you\u2014 I don\u2019t take any satisfaction in that, justice is gonna get her. But I expose myself here, of all I\u2019ve ever done, I just poured it out, what I would<\/i> do. (Pause) Now I\u2019ve told everything I did it the moment I was doing it, the people were able to take it. That\u2019s why I\u2019m trying to say, stop sex. I want to say that to you. (Pause) I want to say, stop sex, because I don\u2019t want to get on that plane of selfishness. I\u2019ve never been there. I\u2019ve never stayed there. Any moment that I\u2019d get there, it\u2014 it would leave. (Struggles for words) I\u2019d begin to think about the well-being of the individual. So I said, I don\u2019t want to get in that plane of being served. Women don\u2019t like men, so uh\u2014 other than companionship, camaraderie, close camaraderie. I suppose the sexual orientation, closest I\u2019ve ever seen<\/i> is, you want pure sexual orientation on the part of the woman is in\u2014 in your mother, the mother of your church, and\u2014 (Pause)<\/p>\n

(Tone of finality) That\u2019s truth. If you want absolute pure sexual orientation\u2014 but even so, our relationship\u2019s not based on that. (Pause) And uh\u2014 I\u2019m no different than anybody else, only even much moreso<\/i>, in the sense that being strong-driving person, I have, uh, a tremendous<\/i>, tremendous drive. Tremendous drive. And that would\u2014 that\u2019ll never change. I don\u2019t suppose that ever will<\/i> change. (Pause) But I\u2019ve never used<\/i> that drive for myself, is what I\u2019m trying to say to you. Never have. You\u2014 if you\u2014 Proof<\/i> of it is you marry and go into marriage without any sexual relationship, never having had one, you go into marriage, keep yourself true to one woman, until\u2014 200 babies are starving. That\u2019s a record for itself. Ten years, twelve years? Thirteen years. Thirteen years, no break in the vow. Thirteen years. No interruption. Only then when babies were starving to death (Pause) did we have to interrupt it. By mutual consent. (Pause) I\u2019m\u2014 Certainly I\u2014 I have to maintain this office to some degree, and I\u2014 she has to maintain her<\/i> office to some degree. And we\u2019re gonna have to give the pre\u2014 proper respect for both these positions. That\u2019s where they are. That\u2019s where these positions are, and uh, we\u2014 we\u2019re going to have to require that. But after my forthright honesty, (Pause) some of you don\u2019t give me<\/i> the respect that you gave former pastors. You won\u2019t\u2014 you\u2014\u00a0you\u2014 you\u2014 you once smiled at me and were courteous. Now you\u2019re not<\/i> smiling at me. Not you\u2019re not<\/i> as warm to me. Now you\u2019re much more insolent and smart-aleck. Some of you who did hear\u2014 whatever<\/i> reasons for this in the former experience, that these things happened, uh, like with this sister. You followed and you were cordial, and you\u2019d never thought of giving the kind of lip back to hi\u2014 to him that you give to me. You\u2019d never dream<\/i> of saying the things that people say to me. Now you\u2019re going to hurt<\/i> the office, if you do this.<\/p>\n

Today, in two senior citizen homes, things were said to me that would\u2014 if other innocents had heard them, they might use it as a\u2014 an excuse to commit rebellion. (Pause) Now as I said today, uh\u2014 I got in some messes that were\u2014 I don\u2019t like created\u2014 one\u2014 one of the homes got in the homes, just, just utter disarray. Disarray. Dog manure and that kind of stuff. And I don\u2019t approve of that. If you can\u2019t clean up\u2014 but over there, I was just cleaning, because they couldn\u2019t get in to the uh, refrigerator and stove, woman couldn\u2019t get up to that. Or climbing up on lamps. But let me do it. Don\u2019t be making little chides about, well\u2014\u00a0let him do it. It\u2019s his\u2014 you know\u2014\u00a0or making little fun remarks about it. Uh\u2014 Respect the office to some degree. Uh, no\u2014 no\u2014 no respect for the office, and if you don\u2019t respect it, somebody\u2019s gonna need<\/i> to respect it, and\u2014 and it\u2019s gonna be cut down at the wrong time, and somebody\u2019s blood is gonna be on your hands. \u2018Cause if I\u2019m doing the best I<\/i> can, if you\u2019re not respectful for me, and someone else looks at you, and uses you as an excuse, you<\/i> are going to have to pay for them. Do I make myself clear on this? I hope all of you stay awake long enough to get this through your heads. But as I said, it really does grieve me\u2014 I could keep a movement swelling by the multitudes and thousands, if I\u2019d play games. (Pause) As Archie said it in a word, you\u2019re the honest\u2014 you\u2019re honesty personified. You tell what you feel. You tell it straight. You don\u2019t color it. You\u2014 you\u2019ll risk losing a movement. I\u2019ll risk it. I\u2019ve many times risked losing a movement\u2014 I don\u2019t know how Archie\u2019s going to react to a thing. I don\u2019t try to weigh how he\u2019s going to react to a thing. When I called him over here, I didn\u2019t take any thought<\/i> about he\u2019s going react to a thing. I just knew right was concerned, and as bad as I need him over there, he\u2019s my right<\/i> hand or left hand, or whatever you want to call it\u2014\u00a0preferably left, being where I am. That\u2019s part of my honesty. I would\u2014\u00a0uh, pre\u2014 preferably\u2014\u00a0preferably not<\/i> have any chance of losing him, but I would\u2019ve lost<\/i> him tonight, if that\u2019s where he was. I\u2019d lose uh, Karen<\/i>, as\u2014 as\u2014 as evolved as she is, and work, and involved, yes, both of them, evolved and involved. I\u2019d risk losing Harold, \u2018cause I don\u2019t think he did something principled last night. I\u2019ll risk any one of you.<\/p>\n

(Pause) And Jim Cobb. I don\u2019t anything went straight through that\u2014 that whole mi\u2014 uh, mission. I\u2019m tired of\u2014 of\u2014 of all these little things, some of them are of lesser magnitude, others greater. And sometimes you\u2019ll be very bold with truth, and then you\u2019ll mix part of error<\/i> and try to undo all you di\u2014 all you do, always saving an out<\/i> for yourself, making a corner to get out, and taking risks<\/i>. (Pause) Terrible risks, as the risk was taken Sunday. Their ego couldn\u2019t stand a woman \u2014 couldn\u2019t stand a woman \u2014 to say to them\u2014 or maybe not, but I think that\u2019s what it is, subconsciously, that\u2019s what I\u2019m gonna say, anyway. Wouldn\u2019t let a woman tell them, Jim wants it this way. (Pause) See, every place you go, it\u2019s sex. So I say, for goodness sakes, child, let us try to rise above it. I wish we could enforce<\/i> you rising above it. (Pause) And I need it so badly. And I go without it so freely. Why in the heck won\u2019t you do it, when you don\u2019t have any need at all? (Pause) You<\/i> face the living-long lies. Some of you are young, you\u2019ve got lives ahead of you. I face things like having to have the cyanide in the right place. (Pause) Not even trusting my own energy, \u2018cause I don\u2019t know how to use my own energy to destruct myself. I\u2019m a healer. I wouldn\u2019t know how to kill myself. (Pause) Wouldn\u2019t know how to use my energy to do that. But bef\u2014 if you drain me dry before I\u2019d let my body be incapacitated here, I would destruct myself. So it looks like, if I\u2019m willing to not have a day ahead, not one living day ahead, (Pause) I\u2014 (Pause) (clicks tongue) nah, if you could, anything to communicate me, because what I\u2019m really trying to do, and it\u2019s hopeless, is with words, is communicate me. And (struggles for words) if I don\u2019t get that communicated, we\u2019ll have these dishonesties over and over again, because back to what I said, brother, your basic reason for lying to me, is that you don\u2019t trust me. (Pause) You wouldn\u2019t have lied<\/i> to me if you\u2019d trusted me. If you\u2019d believed how dedicated I am, you wouldn\u2019t dream<\/i> of lying to anybody as honest as I am. Nobody would lie to anybody as honest as I am. If they really knew<\/i> how honest I was, they wouldn\u2019t do<\/i> this. They wouldn\u2019t do anything. They\u2019d think constantly<\/i>, not to do a thing that would\u2014 would hurt such an honest person. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Marceline: <\/b>I don\u2019t know, I\u2014 (Pause) I can only say that I\u2014\u00a0sometimes I think, believing that someone is as honest as he is requires too much out of us. And so we have to project and see in him what\u2019s in us.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> That\u2019s Mother\u2019s wisdom. And that\u2019s a point well thought out. I think that\u2019s a very beautiful point of\u2014<\/p>\n

Marceline: <\/b>Another thing I want to\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Now, that\u2019s what I want you to see, if you had to follow her<\/i>, uh, at any time, that\u2014 that\u2019s\u2014 you see, you follow\u2014 you follow God. God is principle. God is intelligence, and then you gotta back it up with character. A hundred percent character. She knows that. There\u2019re areas that I\u2019ve dug into her about character. That\u2019s why I won\u2019t let a thing get by. Sunday, when there was a little problem, she was on the floor. I didn\u2019t<\/i> spare Mother, because Mother\u2019s got to be in a position to carry principle. We\u2019ve been through a lot worse than that. Lot worse disagreements than that. Time in our experience when things were so bad, her dependency on me, her following me as a\u2014\u00a0as a human being, as a sexual being, as a personal being, and I\u2019ve had even to threaten to break our marriage<\/i>, right before you, and Mother took it, because she was not following me as a principle, she was following me after the flesh. And her entanglements were on that basis. But she\u2019s risen above<\/i> that. (Pause) She\u2019s doing things now, of a ma\u2014 magnificent new order, and wonderful new commitment uh, to her love to you, to do what she\u2019s now doing, and you can\u2019t\u2014 I can\u2019t go into it now. I can\u2019t go into an explanation of it. So it\u2019s tremendous commitment. There\u2019s an entirely new leaf, uh\u2014\u00a0She has taken these corrections, and now here she\u2019s producing God. God is nothing but highest\u2014 highest truth<\/i>. See, highest truth. She comes on with something here that I<\/i> didn\u2019t even say, that uh, I\u2014 (stumbles over words) \u2018cause I\u2019m too humble to see<\/i> it, she can look off and see that. I can\u2019t\u2014\u00a0I can\u2019t see that. I\u2014 I\u2019m\u2014\u00a0I\u2019m really\u2014\u00a0I\u2019m very humble, you don\u2019t understand that. I couldn\u2019t see what she just said, because I\u2019m too much involved in it. She said you don\u2019t want to be\u2014 see my goodness, because it would require too much of you. And I think that\u2019s true. I think that\u2019s true.<\/p>\n

Marceline: <\/b>The other thing I would like to say (Pause) is, that I don\u2019t quite understand people. When you take out of your day, when sometimes you can hardly got the strength to drag across this parking lot, and go into these homes (Pause) and they would make remarks<\/i> to you when you climb up to clean their cupboards\u2014 (Pause)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> No, just only one little smart remark. (Unintelligible under Marceline) \u2014smart\u2014<\/p>\n

Marceline: <\/b>Well, I don\u2019t know, I wasn\u2019t there\u2014 I thing that especially people who have pastors\u2014 who have followed pastors and who have followed God in the other consciousness, who never<\/i> would\u2019ve bothered to climb up and clean a cupboard, and I\u2019ve never seen a pastor yet that has, who would not have bothered to walk in to see you every day, to see that you\u2019re doing fine, I do not understand this lack of respect. I cannot understand it. I think it\u2014 Life would be so much easier for him, if he would put<\/i> himself up on a pedestal and stay out of your way, and then you\u2019d look at him, and you\u2019d respect him. But he\u2019s too honest to do that. (Pause) Now I\u2019m gonna say again, because I want to leave in your mind what I said before, I think you cannot see honesty in him, because it requires too much out of you, and you project in seeing him what\u2019s in you.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Do you understand what she said?<\/p>\n

Congregation: <\/b>Scattered applause. Yes Father.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> It\u2019s\u2014 it\u2019s\u2014 it\u2019s a little deeper than\u2014<\/p>\n

Congregation: <\/b>Applause.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(Conversational tone) It\u2019s a little deeper<\/i> than what one\u2014 one\u2014 one would really want to see. She said, you see in me what\u2019s in you, because it\u2019s easier that way. It\u2019s an easier out to see the same kind of weaknesses in me that\u2019re in you. You want to make a God in your<\/i> image. (Pause) You don\u2019t want to be made in the image of your God. You\u2019re trying to make a God in your own image. And that\u2019s why we have the King James description of Ja\u2014 of the Bible God. That\u2019s why we got this God that hated, the God of jealously, the God that had slaves, because somebody made God in their image, instead of letting God, or principle, make you in the image of principle. And let\u2019s watch that, as Brother said, that\u2019s always<\/i> a tendency, you want to make a God in your own image, instead of working towards something you can\u2019t even relate to. You<\/i> don\u2019t know how to relate to me. Some of you have never thought<\/i> of doing what I\u2019ve done for truth. You\u2019ve never been<\/i> there. You wouldn\u2019t begin<\/i> to give your life. (Pause) Well, none<\/i> of you. None<\/i> of you have uh, have thought in the totality. I cannot\u2014 I don\u2019t like to make blanket judgments, because in some areas, you\u2019ll have strengths<\/i>. Some of you got very strong strengths, comparable to mine. (Pause) Very comparable. But in the total<\/i> personality that I am, you\u2014 you won\u2019t make<\/i> this commitment. You can\u2019t make<\/i> it. You won\u2019t face<\/i> what I face every day. I was thinking today, through lines of\u2014 (Pause) Well, I don\u2019t want to go into it, (struggles for words) it\u2019s too painful to go into it, I\u2019m not gone do\u2014 But something I would do if I had to do, and I\u2019m tired of tootin\u2019 my horn, \u2018cause it doesn\u2019t do any good. Go on. Uh, wha\u2014 what\u2019d you wish to say? (Pause) You\u2019ve got work to do, and you said all\u2014 you said a mouthful. (Pause) And I once say in answer to his uh, last strength, uh charge to him, that one thing has been bad. Because you<\/i> haven\u2019t been\u2014 and it creates this kind of environment, where he can say something (Pause) that somebody else says, that because people in here generally have not been able to take it right from my shoulder, (Pause) there has been at times discussion of things when people weren\u2019t present. So let\u2019s cool<\/i> that. Let\u2019s cool it. Stop it right dead in its tracks. I don\u2019t know how you\u2019re gonna do it, \u2018cause too many people follow me jealously. (Pause) (Clicks tongue) Whew. I\u2014 I\u2014 I\u2019ve never seen the like of this. (Pause) They follow me jealously. (Pause) Sisters\u2019ll do a lot of work commitment. We\u2019ve admitted, I think even the brothers admitted, the work commitment\u2019s more on the sisters. But there\u2019s jealousy between sisters, you cut it with a knife.<\/p>\n

(Pause) Cut it with a knife. You don\u2019t want a thing from me, supposedly<\/i>, but principle. That\u2019s all you\u2019re supposed to want from me, is principle. But jealousy\u2014 if I\u2014 I\u2014 I\u2019m getting pl\u2014 it\u2014 it\u2019s\u2014\u00a0it\u2019s tragedy. I can\u2019t go in and uh, even hug or uh, kiss anyone\u2014 I don\u2019t know what to do. Did it again to me today. (Draws out sentence for emphasis) Every home did it to me today. Somebody did it. (Pause) I gave the affection the way I felt to give to give it, and somebody said, you do it this way. (Pause) You\u2019re gonna fix me up, till I\u2019m not gonna touch anybody. \u2018Cause I really feel like giving you love. But don\u2019t tell me how to show it. (Stammers) I\u2014 I\u2014 I can\u2019t deal with this, uh, so, the way out is to just lay off of any affectionate display. (Pause) I said\u2014 they\u2014 the\u2014\u00a0I mean that. In every place I went, somebody today either grabbed my face and put my lips to theirs, (Pause) and uh\u2014 I\u2019m not revolted<\/i> by it, I\u2019m just disgusted that you can\u2019t see a love on a higher plane. \u2018Cause it takes a whole<\/i> lot of higher love to feel as I<\/i> feel for you. (Pause) But you just can\u2019t get that till you been out there. It\u2019s very hard for some of you, children, you\u2019ve never been in sex at all, and been so many years you been there, you haven\u2019t been\u2014 you just\u2014 you just can\u2019t relate to this. But it\u2019s a much higher level that I feel for you, than sex. Much higher. (Pause) \u2018Cause I\u2019m\u2014\u00a0I\u2014\u00a0I\u2014 as I told<\/i> you, there\u2019s two parts to me. A sexual-driving person. I could take care of every woman in this room tonight \u2014 there\u2019s been proof of that \u2014 physically. But that wouldn\u2019t be my highest love for you.<\/p>\n

(Pause) (Clicks tongue) That\u2019s why I never have been able to do it. If there were sexual pleasure, I\u2019d feel the guilt<\/i> about it. Because it was too self-centered, and then I\u2019d start to work, and it\u2019s too big a work, you can\u2019t do\u2014 you can\u2019t give \u2018em the, uh\u2014 you can\u2019t be father, mother, husband, uh, what you are\u2014\u00a0all that is needed, from a woman to a man. You can\u2019t be that for everybody. And then if you\u2019re God on top of it, they expect you to be it\u2014 even a hundredfold times more in every other area than anybody else possibly could be. (Draws out sentence for emphasis) So you have to meet every living need, just exactly right. You\u2019ve got to hear all their problems, and answer them just right. You\u2019ve got to be cautious not to make one mistake. (Pause) So don\u2019t get me on a sex plane, that\u2019s selfish. If I ever quit this work, I\u2019m gonna announce it. And I\u2019ll have the\u2014 you\u2019ll le\u2014 you\u2019ll hear\u2014\u00a0you\u2019re hear\u2014 uh, hear it, you won\u2019t need to worry about it, I\u2019ll\u2014 I\u2019ll announce it, wide and clear. (Pause) And I\u2019ll uh\u2014 for two<\/i> weeks, I may pursue my physical energy. Two weeks, I\u2019ll pursue it wildly, then I\u2019ll settle down again. (Pause) Did you hear what I said? I\u2019m just tellin\u2019 you how it would be. \u2018Course I\u2019ll never quit it. I\u2019ve got too much character. And so some of you, you gotta have that experience, go on and do it. If you think that\u2019s what it is, go out there and do it. Be sure you can get yourself back home, though, when you get through. One of our (Pause) people wanted to go out in that sex realm, they end up gettin\u2019 their brains<\/i> beat out in a hotel room in Oakland. They thought they could get it free, and they\u2014 they\u2014 they wanted to go try it, and they\u2014 oh, they thought they had found it, had a romantic love. And after it was all finished, they got robbed, didn\u2019t have a stitch of clothes, and got their brains beat out, right in the clu\u2014 in the, in the, the hotel room. They held\u2014 they hauled them out on the morgue. Hauled them out to the morgue.<\/p>\n

(Sighs) (Pause) (Clicks tongue) Nah, I wouldn\u2019t\u2014 I wouldn\u2019t\u2014 I\u2014 If I went\u2014 If I had my choice, if I quit this work tomorrow\u2014 I\u2019m trying to be just as utterly honest as I know. (Pause) The sexual need is there, if I couldn\u2019t be creative. (Pause) But I\u2014 I do believe, if I could quit this work, and there was somebody to take my place, I would surround myself with little children and animals and senior citizens. (Pause) The real little ones, and then only if I could rear them. Not\u2014 and now I don\u2019t have enough time to rear them all. But I sure wouldn\u2019t want to rear them through other people\u2019s uh, hands or face or eyes or minds, but rear them myself. (Pause) \u2018Cause I could do a pretty good job. I\u2019d just get enough that I could handle. I\u2019d get me a few animals, and I\u2019d get as far away in some wilderness as I could (Pause) because I like the wisdom<\/i> of people who\u2019ve lived longer. Some<\/i> of us\u2014 some of you\u2019ve learned something. Some of you\u2019ve lived 70 years, and haven\u2019t learned a thing. (Pause) Then some of you\u2019ve lear\u2014 lived 70 years, and it shows<\/i>, and it\u2019s nothing so beautiful as the process of years. It\u2019s beautiful. (Pause) If you learn<\/i> something. If you don\u2019t learn anything, you\u2019re just as ugly as all the rest of folk. (Pause) That\u2019s why I said \u2014 and I repeat, there were some wasn\u2019t here last week \u2014 I didn\u2019t have any further proposals, but I want this to get all around. See, the government meeting is less tonight than it was before. People don\u2019t like truth. They don\u2019t want truth<\/i>. They don\u2019t want<\/i> truth. So the government meeting\u2019s down tonight. We lost members over my forthrightness. But the week before last Sunday, when the young woman who was offering herself to me, and uh\u2014 I thought (Pause) yeah, I\u2019ll take a young woman, quick. (Snaps fingers) You want a quickie? Boom, boom. I\u2019ll give you a quickie. But I don\u2019t want to wake up with you. (Pause) Get the straight talk now, you get what I\u2019m saying? Yeah, I\u2019ll take a quickie with you, but I want to wake up with somebody that\u2019s wiser, (Pause) more experienced, more mature. So don\u2019t<\/i>, young thing, think that you got anything to give your father.<\/p>\n

\u2018Cause you can\u2019t get it unless you\u2019ve lived a while. You can give your father loyalty and virtue and honesty and justice. You stand for the right as you see it. But don\u2019t<\/i> be so presumptuous as send up a letter and say you\u2019ll take care of me sexually, that uh, you\u2014 you\u2014 you\u2019d be glad to offer yourself. (Pause) Because I\u2014 I\u2014 I\u2019ve got a bigger imagination than you anyway. Probably. And I don\u2019t want no more of it. And I\u2019ve been\u2014 I\u2014 I\u2019ve been getting on average of one kind of proposal like that every weekend. One or another thinks that they\u2014 And it\u2019s bad<\/i>, because of you\u2014 you should put up with that, I suppose, that\u2019s why some leaders do<\/i> put up with it. One got mad and went off in a bus week before last, sat out there on the bus, real angry, \u2018cause I didn\u2019t uh, bow<\/i> to her approach. But I\u2019m too bored<\/i> to fool with people that don\u2019t know anything more than uh, how to manipulate the thing underneath their clothes. I want some communion with mind, I want some fellowship with somebody\u2019s got some love and understanding and experience and\u2014 and uh, grasp of world issues, that are concerned about the problems around them, I\u2014 I\u2014\u00a0I\u2014 I said\u2014 when I say this, you can\u2019t seem to get it. You see one set of breasts, you\u2019ve seen most part all. You\u2014 and there\u2019s certainly no difference between the uh, aperture or the opening between the legs. (Pause) No difference. Not a bit. (Pause) I\u2019ve seen it. I\u2019ve seen it. I don\u2019t want no more of it, so go just\u2014 just leave it\u2014 just leave it where it is. I don\u2019t want to go back to that old plane. (Pause) \u2018Cause I m\u2014 I couldn\u2019t<\/i> go back to that old plane. I might live<\/i> longer if I went back to that old plane. Funny thing is, some of you die from trying to have sex, and I live<\/i> if I had it. I could relax, you know, just go out and (stumbles over words) I\u2014 I\u2019d do a lot of things I could relax, just go out and run through the woods. Whole lot of things. I\u2014 I don\u2019t need just sex. Go on a boat ride. No, not very long one, because I get bored. Be people on a boat, wouldn\u2019t there. If I could take their\u2014 If I could\u2014 If I could swim out with the dolphins, probably I\u2019d have good time. (Pause) But there\u2019re a number of things I could do for energy release<\/i>. I mean, pure energy release. But most of you with sex, it\u2014 it isn\u2019t a quickie, you know. Or if it is, it\u2019s a hostile thing. You leave someone cold and out in the c\u2014\u00a0out\u2014 the state of frustration. So what you uh, you<\/i> do is make more health<\/i> problems for you. But actually, I need<\/i> that release and on my love won\u2019t let me take that release. (Pause) But I\u2019m gonna be very honest with you, so I won\u2019t get<\/i> that release, \u2018cause no woman wants just to be a thing in bed, does<\/i> she?<\/p>\n

Voices: <\/b>No.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>So my honesty again cuts me off again from getting anything in bed. Nobody\u2019d want to come to me, \u2018cause I just told you, if you\u2019re young and beautiful, I want to\u2014 uh, maybe that\u2014 I might like your body, but that\u2019s all I want<\/i> right now, \u2018cause you haven\u2019t had enough time to get anything else<\/i>. (Pause) Now that\u2019s straight talk. You won\u2019t get that kinda talk anywhere, \u2018cause I\u2019m cuttin\u2019 off\u2014 I got opportunities. Baby, if I wanted to live this thing up, I could get\u2014 I could say, come on, God says (stumbles over words), there\u2019s a couch over there, you go and lay down on that couch, and the Holy Spirit\u2019s gonna come in unto you. Oh, foof. (Pause) Such dirty stuff. Using an office like that. If I ever come to you, I\u2019m gonna say, God\u2019s hot, and he wants something, will you accommodate him? (Pause) Hmm? That\u2019s the way to do it. But I\u2019m not about to be bothering you, so don\u2019t get nervous. (Pause) (Stumbles over words) But don\u2019t do\u2014 bl\u2014 this foolish stuff. The Holy Ghost doing this and the Spirit doing that, and God doing that, and making something holy that just as y\u2014 human and just as profane, and just as low as any other monkey or\u2014 or any other human ever walked, then try to make it holy. (Pause) And there\u2019ve been movements on it. Really is discouraging. Here we are, the few of us, but least we do feel like we get to know uh, each other to some degree, and I got s\u2014\u00a0something to tell you. Uh\u2014 There\u2019re going to be lesser of us. \u2018Cause I\u2019ll do it. One day, you\u2019ll get me fixed, and if you won\u2019t give me any peace here, I\u2019ll take the little ones here that will, older and younger and in between, and we\u2019ll go someplace, and we\u2019ll put us a s\u2014 high electric fence around us as possible (Pause) and whatever else we need to deter anybody from coming in on us.<\/p>\n

(Pause) \u2018Cause I don\u2019t want a mass movement of people that can\u2019t uh, know themselves, \u2018cause ven\u2014 eventually the movements don\u2019t last. We may be small, but we\u2019ll last, if we\u2019ll build on principle. (Pause) We\u2019ll be able to survive. Won\u2019t be<\/i> in such a mess as I said over there in my uh\u2014 just grieve here, and I\u2019m talking about the property, what they\u2019re going to do with the property, uh, because not enough people for the property to go around, gonna have to get the money for the property, and should<\/i> get the money from the property back in peace mission. Think of all those millions of people. Now they haven\u2019t got 300, because they didn\u2019t know where in the wor\u2014 which way the wind<\/i> was blowing. No one really knew anything, didn\u2019t know where it was at. So now they wou\u2014\u00a0they went after the flesh \u2014 thank you \u2014 they went after the flesh, and now they\u2019ve gone\u2014 got enough people to keep the buildings. So, for a while, it may have looked<\/i> like a mass, but now it\u2019s a mess. We may look like a mess, but we can be a mass, if we\u2019ll build on right, if you get to know me, and get to know my character, you\u2019ll stand, whether I\u2019m in the body or out of the body, what I\u2019m doing, you\u2019ll stand on<\/i>, and more than that, you might come and do what I\u2019m doing. I might be able to teach you how to be God, and I can send you over someplace else, you can be God over that territory. If you\u2019d ever grow up, I\u2019d send you out and make you God\u2014\u00a0I\u2019d say, I\u2019m God in California, you\u2019re God in Nevada. (Pause) (Under his breath) You don\u2019t understand. (Normal voice) You don\u2019t understand what I\u2019m saying. I can create<\/i> you in my own image and likeness, if you\u2019d let<\/i> me. Now I can\u2019t give you my gifts, my power, but I could make it look<\/i> like it. I could send you out in my name. (Pause) But you gotta grow up. And last time I mentioned that, why, the people come up here\u2014 clowns. Clowns wantin\u2019 me to send them out. (Pause) Clowns, didn\u2019t have any love for anybody, like that s\u2014\u00a0silly woman here last Wednesday night, stood up here and said she\u2019d like me, she had a gift like me.<\/p>\n

Murmurs of derision.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Afore she got through, she\u2019d lost something, couldn\u2019t find it. Lost her camera, couldn\u2019t find it. That night\u2014 and fell out on the floor, \u2018cause her camera was lost. Fell out there on the floor, bemoaning her state. She was like me. (Pause) So, get<\/i> on with the business of character control. Get to the place where you can control<\/i> your appetites. You really don\u2019t know\u2014 some of you don\u2019t know what this is, you\u2019ve never had an appetite. You gotta have it, then you control it. Control<\/i> your drives, control<\/i> what you want to do. Control<\/i> all those things that pull on you, to such a degree that you can control all<\/i> of the pressures that come to you, that you can turn them of\u2014\u00a0down at least, and keep your course. That you won\u2019t lose your course, that you\u2019ve got control over everything that influences you. You\u2019ve got to be in that position, so that something can\u2019t get you off. (Pause) Now until you do \u2014 and stop playing these games, I\u2019m not gone deal with people tryin\u2019 to put up in a sexual image, or trying to move from one flower to another, and then say, well, I\u2019m homosexual, think that takes care of it. That\u2019s what a lot of this business is, say, I\u2019m homosexual tonight and then out tomorrow will be flirting with somebody. Better not be, \u2018cause if it comes back, boom. This council will deal with it.<\/p>\n

Single voice:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Get it in control. If I see you can get things in control, I can send you out. I want<\/i> to send some of you out. We could reproduce<\/i> this thing. We could extend<\/i> this thing. I could trust<\/i> you. (Voice rises) I\u2019m trying to see how much I can trust you. I\u2019ve got to get you to know yourself. I wish I was big enough to go to bed with each one of you, in the sense of not sex, but just time to talk with you, time to communicate with you, and show you a lot about yourself. Things you don\u2019t think you know. Some of you women think you\u2019re free of this experience. I could make you realize that you got the same identity problems every other woman\u2019s got. I could get you close<\/i> to it. I could take every man with the driving sex I\u2019ve got, and make you realize how passive you are<\/i>. I come on to you, you ju\u2014 you might not be the particular body prototype that you like, but when I got through<\/i> with you, you\u2019d realize you\u2019re passive. (Pause) You understand what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Several voices: <\/b>Yes, Dad. Yes, Father.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(Voice returns to conversation) When you get up against utter strength, there\u2019s going to be passivity. (Pause) And I\u2019m the most utmost of strength, but I can develop it in you<\/i>. (Pause) But not after this image of what we thought the outward appearance, not by a clothes style or swaggering or (Pause) the way you handle a car, or the way you can\u2014 (Pause) your stances or your affectations with women, or brothers, or the way you carry a gun, or whatever. It\u2019s something far different from that. And I beg<\/i> you, I beg<\/i> you to come into this school that I\u2019m teaching. I\u2019m the Godship degree, or the socialist-ship degree. And I\u2019m trying to get some people ready to do my work. And all of you can do this. Some of you can\u2019t sing. We might have to send singer with you. I\u2019ve used my voice to do everything, destroyed it. (Pause) But we could<\/i> get some character control here that would enable us to really<\/i> expand this movement till it\u2019d never<\/i> be able to run out. (Pause) Now, because nobody knows who\u2019s the leader is of the Mission East, we got no<\/i> leader. (Pause) Father told me in the corner, the man was on you. Told me and s\u2014\u00a0I\u2019m sure, I\u2014\u00a0I\u2019m sure that uh, Mary must\u2014 St. Mary heard him. But she not gone tell it. So never anything was ever told publicly. I thought today I\u2019d tested your spirit, did uh, Father have you doing Social Security, (stumbles over words) I mean, the peace mission had you doing Social Security on those children, tellin\u2019 \u2018em not take Social Security. And this kinda stuff\u2014\u00a0well, this is only coulda been exposed\u2014 this could only been exposed. (Pause) It made a\u2014 the things that you had to do behind the scene, that this coulda been brought out. (Pause) (Sighs) But no\u2014 no lines of authority. Mother<\/i> wasn\u2019t even told she was to be the\u2014 the head of that movement, that just some assum\u2014 assumption, they said, listen to Mother, but she certainly was never told to be God. No one ever\u2014\u00a0he never even suggested<\/i> she be God. Said, I lifted you up, you could fall<\/i>. I\u2019m not quoting him exactly, and certainly he would know what a fall was, \u2018cause he took some. But (Pause) today we have no real work of socialist-se\u2014 ship or Godship degree on the East coast, and I\u2019m grieved<\/i> over it. So\u2014 some say, why are you preoccupied with it over there? That was supposed to be a glowing work<\/i>, that\u2019s on my mind<\/i>. That\u2019s not supposed to go the way it\u2019s going. (Pause) That\u2019s terrible<\/i> the way that\u2019s gonna go. Dying like flies, and no use to take on the\u2014 on the reins. We were meant to get ourselves together, so we could extend the work, but it\u2019ll never get done, because no clear established rules\u2014\u00a0and there was too much build-up of one personality. Build up one personality, till no one could do anything. So why you\u2019ve got to get to place where you can<\/i> do things. This council has to be trusted. People\u2019ve try to circumvent this council, say, I ca\u2014 I won\u2019t go to the council, I won\u2019t tell the council. Yes, you will. Because we\u2019re gonna have to have other people that have the authority in this group (Pause) and if the one\u2014 you can\u2019t trust one of \u2018em, then tell me who it is, and we\u2019ll throw \u2018em off, till you get somebody up here you can<\/i> trust.<\/p>\n

Voice in crowd (Marceline?): <\/b>They\u2019re all trustworthy.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, true. (Pause) But I\u2019m saying, let\u2019s correct anything tonight you don\u2019t like. Let\u2019s have a real knockdown drag-out, and correct anything you don\u2019t like, so that you can get everything up here straight. If you don\u2019t think somebody up here don\u2019t belong, you let\u2014 let \u2018em know what\u2019s the matter, and we\u2019ll try to correct it. I\u2019m gone say one<\/i> thing right off the bat. There\u2019ve been a report to me, and \u2014 honest \u2014 that some of you who are on this council leave at one o\u2019clock in the morning. Or noo\u2014 midnight. Or you leave when you please. You are not so privileged<\/i>. If you\u2019re on that council, you are to stay all night long. You leave when everybody else leaves. That applied to you, and Grace Stoen. That\u2019s who I was told<\/i> about. (Pause) That you leave early, and she<\/i> leaves early. You and Karen. That\u2019s what I was told<\/i>. See, I\u2019m, uh\u2014\u00a0we\u2019re gettin\u2019 out of this realm, what I was told. Who told me? Uh, who did tell me? (Pause) I don\u2019t\u2014 you told me? No, you didn\u2019t tell me. (Pause) Did you tell me?<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> You didn\u2019t tell<\/i> me, though. What are you tryin\u2019 to do, take the blunt? You didn\u2019t tell me. (Pause) I\u2019ll tell the truth on you, I don\u2019t think anybody<\/i> told me.<\/p>\n

Voice<\/b>: Yes (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Several voices compete, too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, (stumbles over words) sometimes I don\u2019t know whether I\u2019ve been told or (unintelligible phrase). (Pause) You didn\u2019t tell me. You can swear on your life<\/i> you didn\u2019t tell me, you hope you drop dead<\/i>, you didn\u2019t tell me. What\u2019d you say\u2014 what made you think uh\u2014 you\u2014 you\u2019ve had such a thought<\/i>. But you didn\u2019t tell me. (Undertone) Now, I\u2014 no. All right. (Normal) All right, well, uh, uh, now see, that cause division. No\u2014 nobody got any privilege to leave this council\u2014\u00a0if one gotta stay all night, we all gotta stay all night. Now I want you people to be able to take it quickly, so that they can get on with their work, and not have to prolong things. There\u2019s too much\u2014 \u2018course, not all the people here in the council\u2014 maybe this can be replayed for them. Don\u2019t have any uh, unnecessary rhetoric. Get to the point. But if you\u2019ve got disagreement with some member of the council, you stop that meeting right there. (Pause) Dead. Stop it dead. And say, I\u2014\u00a0I want to have a pause, and uh, then you can dismiss whoever you\u2019re talking to, another room, and iron out the difficulties. \u2018Cause I know<\/i> that sometimes council\u2019s going to see things differently. You\u2019re not going to think that it\u2019s going the right course, and uh, you\u2014 you have privilege to stop and discuss that. (Pause) Yes.<\/p>\n

Long pause. Low conversation in church.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> All right. I\u2014 I just throw it out that\u2014 this\u2014 this occurred to me. I know you\u2019ve got other things to do, both you workers got other things to do, but we\u2019re just try to have this kind of frank\u2014 frank discussion.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes. Yes. Certainly. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b>I wanna\u2014 I wanna get\u2014\u00a0I want to get all the bridges burnt behind me tonight. (Pause) (Sighs) I\u2019ve se\u2014\u00a0I\u2019ve seen the love (Pause) of this Father who sits in front of us, so keen, and that I\u2019ve trampled it like pearls before swine. I\u2019m a homosexual. I\u2019ve had active homosexual relationships. With a man. And I tried to hide it. Father knew about it, and he told me about it. (Pause) But I kept trying to hide it, \u2018cause I wanted to be this image of a man that I thought was supposed to be an image of.<\/p>\n

(Tape edit of unknown duration)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Now, you are.<\/p>\n

Congregation: <\/b>Applause.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>That\u2019s straight talk, man, straight talk.<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b>I\u2019d rather leave this work than jeopardize you. My children look up to you. (Pause) I\u2019ve looked up to you. (Pause) But I\u2019ve been an ass. I misused it. (Pause) (Sighs) I\u2019ll\u2014\u00a0I\u2019ll take a minor role, I\u2019ll help any way I can to see that everything is done the way it\u2019s supposed to be. \u2018Cause I\u2019m not a man yet. I\u2019m trying to be.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Now, let\u2019s get out of this\u2014<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b>I\u2019ve seen\u2014 (Unintelligible word) I\u2019ve tried to be a human being. I\u2019m not even a human being.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> \u2014this man. You\u2014 you\u2014 you\u2019re not mature. You\u2019re not mature. You\u2019re\u2014 you\u2019re mature enough for me to uh, place a gun in your hand tonight, and I wouldn\u2019t have 15 minutes ago. So you can have\u2014 you can have a gun. As of tonight.<\/p>\n

Congregation: <\/b>Applause.<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b>I saw something tonight that I haven\u2019t seen<\/i> for a long time. And I don\u2019t know why I\u2019m so thick-headed. (Pause) (Sighs) Now I fooled around with five or six women in this church, trying to prove something. And I didn\u2019t prove anything. Just how weak I was. (Pause) (Sighs) So I want to be strong. I<\/i> saw character last night, and I saw character this afternoon in Jim Bogue. (Pause) I saw him reflect Father. I thought I was someplace one time\u2014\u00a0hmm\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> He\u2014 I didn\u2019t catch that last phrase\u2014 I didn\u2019t catch that last\u2014<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b>Jim Bogue\u2019s\u2014 I said I thought I was someplace one time. I thought I was evolved. I<\/i> may have been, but I sure regressed. \u2018Cause I saw more character in him<\/i> than I\u2019ve demonstrated for six months. And I appreciate that, Jim.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Thank you.<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b>I, uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Glad to know about it. There\u2019s a public record myself, because it\u2019s so inconsistent with what he showed out there when I didn\u2019t even know him. (Unintelligible words) other thing.<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b>I just want everyone<\/i> to know what I am, so that I don\u2019t have any<\/i> chances to make any backtracks from this night on.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, thank you\u2014<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b>I want to be a friend to you as (Pause) as females and a friend to you as males. I don\u2019t want to play any more games. Father\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> God (unintelligible)\u2014 They need some friends. They need some friends.<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b>I need friends.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> We all need\u2014<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b>I\u2019ve alienated myself from you<\/i>, so you couldn\u2019t even be a friend to me<\/i>. Father\u2019s found it hard to be a friend to me, because of the way I treated him<\/i>. Well, he hasn\u2019t found it hard to be a friend to me, but I\u2014\u00a0I\u2019ve just alienated myself so badly. (Pause) I\u2019m sorry, Father.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Thank you\u2014<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b>I apologize, council, because I misrepresented, and I didn\u2019t tell the truth last night. I think I\u2019ve told the truth tonight.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I think you have done very, very well.<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b>Thank you, Father.<\/p>\n

Congregation: <\/b>Applause<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> And\u2014 I don\u2019t\u2014 I don\u2019t suppose that Jim Bogue has a\u2014 a gun<\/i>, but he oughta have\u2014 Does he have one? Does he have one?<\/p>\n

Bogue: <\/b>I have one.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Is he licensed?<\/p>\n

Bogue: <\/b>No.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> We ought to process him, when a man with that kind of character\u2014 I saw<\/i> the character in you before\u2014 in his endorsement of you, because he has been with me 20 years, and I trust his judgment in a lot of ways, in spite of his, as he said, regression<\/i>. And anybody can digress\u2014 Digress<\/i> is probably more fair, much more fair word\u2014\u00a0be diverted by one little point<\/i> of\u2014\u00a0one little area of unreconciled behavior problem can get you off course. (Pause) Doesn\u2019t blanket\u2014\u00a0uh, blot out your character points and strength in other areas, but it certainly can divert your energy. Um\u2014\u00a0so now, that\u2014\u00a0that\u2014\u00a0I feel good<\/i> about them, because I un\u2014\u00a0unhesitantly said that there would be no gun<\/i>, but now I can say that there\u2019s one. And that applies to all the rest of you, I uh, I want to hear more about your knowledge of yourself, some of you have not\u2014 some of you out there not been confronted with all the things you\u2019ve done, um, all that have guns, I\u2014 I\u2019ll have to have some proof that you really are in alignment with what I\u2019m doing. (Pause) and understand me and communicate with me and feel<\/i> like I feel. \u2018Cause I\u2019m going through<\/i> this thing with guns, right down the line. I want to just\u2014 prove one<\/i> here tonight, and it\u2019s going to be one by one. Yes.<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b>(Emotional) Father. I want to thank the council and all the things that\u2019s happened in the last day or so. For the first time in the 18 years, which will be eleventh of this month the wife and I have been married, that we have\u2014 I believe we have felt true honesty with each other this morning. I believe now that we\u2019ve\u2014 will have a relationship that we\u2019ll be able to build up on. And I thank you, Father.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> And that\u2019s wonderful. That\u2019s wonderful. Thank you.<\/p>\n

Applause<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> You know\u2014\u00a0I don\u2019t like to remember his experience because it uh, brings to light other people\u2019s mistakes and people\u2019ve far redeemed those mistakes since then, but I don\u2019t want to ever forget the experience<\/i> of this man. Some of you never were around when it happened. (Pause) I went away for a little while for a meeting<\/i> for a few days, and I had instructed the (Pause) church officers not to allow any gift to be received of surplus foods. (Pause) Well, some one way or another, people forgot it or did what they chose, uh, through, uh, ego, and we got in a mess<\/i>. They accepted<\/i> surplus foods. This brother was one of those trucks, and they\u2019d drive in an open noon-day, just like they was doing the right thing, right down through the main town with truckloads of surplus food. Who should see him but the head of the surplus food program. Pulled him over and stopped him. The only\u2014\u00a0only ordeal we\u2019ve ever had in this group, it looked like, gone tear us up. (Pause) Everybody from (Pause) the local welfare people to the United States Department of Agriculture was on our back within a matter of hours. I want you to hear this, because there\u2019s a lot of things come into play<\/i> on this subject. (Pause) Everybody<\/i> was on our back, and this man was the only one they caught. And he wouldn\u2019t tell on anybody else. And I didn\u2019t know him hardly. He and I had never said three words to communicate. He<\/i> didn\u2019t know his Father. I never healed him of a fatal disease. He just had taken me purely by faith. He<\/i> didn\u2019t know I didn\u2019t send them out there. He didn\u2019t know a thing about it. He wasn\u2019t the one that violated my instruction. It was one of my officials<\/i> that told him<\/i> to go out there, so he thought I told him to go out there. On the contrary, I told him not<\/i> to go out there, but he\u2019s out there. And he never told who was out there. Little dirty snakes, that\u2019s how much\u2014\u00a0how little they appreciate honesty, too. They oughta been able to see it. They wanted to railroad him. (Pause) (Speaks slowly) He held his ground. He would not tell anybody else. If there was anybody else, he wouldn\u2019t tell it. (Pause) And then\u2014\u00a0out here in the aisle, in the driveway, they wanted to uh, then divide me<\/i> by saying well, if you weren\u2019t here<\/i>, and we\u2019ve established that, you didn\u2019t know anything about it, if you\u2019ll send\u2014\u00a0let him take the blunt of it, it\u2019ll be all over. He\u2019s the one we\u2019re after. (Pause) I said, no, you take him, you gotta take me. And then Tim Stoen, who was assistant attorney spoke up and said, yeah, and you gotta take me.<\/p>\n

Male voice in crowd: <\/b>That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> And all those boys looked around at us, and thought they\u2019d never seen anything like this. We\u2019re going to have to take one, you\u2019re going to have to take \u2018em all, and uh\u2014\u00a0and uh\u2014 they could tell adamantly in our voices, that\u2019s exactly what we meant. They gonna have to drag him\u2014 in fact, I expected and knew they\u2019d have to drag him away<\/i> from us if they tried to take him<\/i>, \u2018cause we looked very, very determined<\/i> in our position. (Pause) And the only thing saved us there was letter-writing. That\u2019s one of the reasons I\u2019m bringing this up. Support. We\u2019d sent letters to people who were in the right places. We\u2019d voted for people as I had been told. And if we hadna voted and supported ri\u2014 right people, it came up, we were ready to be blasted<\/i>. And those politicians runnin\u2019 interference for us, and saved our\u2014 the enemies from hittin\u2019 us, \u2018cause we<\/i> had done nothing wrong. We had a right<\/i> to take surplus foods, but a little technical thing in which, uh, uh, we\u2019d violated this r\u2014 uh, statute. And they coulda sent us up the river. That\u2019s why I never would let this\u2014 and I don\u2019t want no surplus foods now, and get that across, don\u2019t you bring no surplus foods here. Not even a can<\/i> of it. \u2018Cause you\u2019re not allowed to give those surplus foods to anybody. If they\u2019re given to you<\/i>, they\u2019re for you only<\/i>. And you better understand that. Every now and then, we got to\u2014\u00a0we got to take something and dump it. We dump it.<\/i> They bring a can in here, we won\u2019t\u2014\u00a0we won\u2019t di\u2014\u00a0distribute it.<\/p>\n

Male voice in crowd:<\/b> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Don\u2019t you bring anything that says Surplus\u2014 U.S. Surplus Foods. You<\/i> have to use it yourself<\/i>. It cannot be given anyone else. But I uh\u2014\u00a0I thought it was indeed wonderful that here, I\u2014\u00a0people had followed my instructions and we did have certain in\u2014 people we\u2019d influenced, and when they tried to put the ax on us, we had those people fight all the way United States Agriculture Department. They didn\u2019t give up easily. U.S. Agriculture Department came back after him again at his door. He wouldn\u2019t talk. Several times they came. He wouldn\u2019t talk. He shut the door. Say, I ain\u2019t got anything to say to you. (Clicks tongue, like door closing) They come over to me. I said, it still stands the same way. We\u2019ve done nothing wrong. Do you want him? You gotta take me. You gotta take the whole church. And I never will forget the last time that Agriculture Department man was here. He shook his, um\u2014 scratch\u2014 scratched his head, he said, I\u2019m glad somebody else is taking my job.<\/p>\n

Congregation: <\/b>Laughter.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> And that\u2019s the last I ever saw him. \u2018Cause he didn\u2019t know what to do with us. And that\u2019s been \u2014 what \u2014 two years ago? Something like that. (Pause) So it pays to follows instructions and it\u2014 one thing it pays, never be divided. That\u2019s a classic example of uniting a front tonight, brother. Bringing in the uh, short ends. Archie did the same thing before he went back to work. He said (unintelligible word) defensive\u2014 we attacked him about his defensiveness\u2014\u00a0he just shut it short, he says I\u2019ve seen honesty like I\u2019ve never seen before. That was pulling the ro\u2014 the gu\u2014 the loose ends in. Everybody pulling the loose ends in. Now, see, we may look like we\u2019re divided at the beginning of a night, and we may seem to be tottering, but the old ship of state right now, ten of ten, is in damn good shape.<\/p>\n

Congregation: <\/b>Cheers and applause.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Thank you. That\u2019s what it takes. Honesty can heal any situation. Love with honesty. But nothing else. Just be honest, until you can become loving. But you do have a responsibility to be cordial. As I said to uh, Joy, I appreciate that forthrightness with Simon, to tell him, but\u2014\u00a0it also by saying\u2014\u00a0the same thing shoulda been said, I could understand, maybe if I\u2019da been in your position, I mighta done the same thing. You never know. (Unintelligible word; tape edit?) can always say that, \u2018cause you don\u2019t know what you\u2019da done, you\u2019d been in his job. You understand what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Murmurs of assent.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> You just<\/i> don\u2019t know for sure what you\u2019d do if you were in Simon\u2019s job, unless you got Simon\u2019s job. You can say, well, I\u2019d have\u2014 if I\u2019da been so-and-so, I\u2019da done so-and-so. No, you don\u2019t know what you\u2019d done if you\u2019d been so-and-so, \u2018cause you\u2019d been you<\/i>-and-so. (Pause) So you just\u2014 you don\u2019t know what so-and-so\u2019s going to do, or what so<\/i>-and-so had to do, so it\u2019s eh\u2014 it\u2019s just best to say, I think<\/i>\u2014 this is what I think I would\u2019ve done. But still, I love you. I don\u2019t approve of what you did, but I love you. And I love those changes you\u2019ve made, the growth you\u2019ve (stumbles over words) demonstrated. And I\u2019m fond of uh, what I see here, the very definite<\/i> streak of honesty that can be called forth. So let\u2019s try honesty, but let\u2019s most clearly make this known. And that doesn\u2019t mean just cut cut cut. You say what you feel, but also show the cordiality with it, or let the person know you care<\/i>. Let them know some<\/i> way you care. Some people think all\u2019s required under this new dispensation is just saying everything comes to your mouth. (Pause) You understand what I\u2019m saying? Please? Give the water around. Hold your hand up in the air\u2014 Hold it up high if you want water, that won\u2019t distract me. Uh\u2014 Just be sure, though, that you do<\/i> try to keep peace. And remember uh, this, al\u2014 I repeat<\/i>, the best follower will be the one that\u2019ll go the furthest for peace. Someone showing their rear end? Then you keep your peace, and go the extra mile. You\u2019ll be the best follower. Right?<\/p>\n

Scattered voices: <\/b>Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> You go the extra mile.<\/p>\n

Scattered voices: <\/b>Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>This, uh, keeps recurring to me and uh, at this moment, I feel very strongly, uh, last year, when we were in Philadelphia, and we saw the adulation which had been lavished on leaders who didn\u2019t deserve it, one of the\u2014 my companions, a young woman in the uh, Temple, said to me, I\u2019m so glad that our prophet hasn\u2019t taken that trip. And I said, if he had<\/i> taken it, I wouldn\u2019t be on it. Now, I hope that you mean it\u2014 you know what I mean. Uh\u2014\u00a0some of us \u2014\u00a0and I think, most of us \u2014 love him because of the things that he will<\/i> do for us on the human level, and the fact that he doesn\u2019t let<\/i> us give him diamond rings and cars, nor accept our worship. I just felt moved to say that we do appreciate you. (Short pause) He isn\u2019t there. (Laughs) That\u2019s how (unintelligible word)\u2014<\/p>\n

Congregation: <\/b>Applause<\/p>\n

2nd woman: <\/b>Well, I took the same trip last summer, and in a way, I think the people back there had something over us. They listened and\u2014 when something was said. When those tapes were played, and\u2014 I<\/i> thought Father Divine was a horrible speaker, I thought he was boring, I thought he didn\u2019t have anything to say. Out of all due respect for you children \u2014 and I respect you, \u2018cause you\u2019re here and anything that brought you here, fine \u2014 but I\u2014 I listened and it was boring to death. But those people sat, and they even watched that tape recorder or whatever it was it was coming from. And when (Pause) someone who represented the office of that time came from Mother which I think (unintelligible word)\u2014 I think we all share her thoughts of her, they watched her, and they listened to her. When people\u2014 When they would stand out there for an hour<\/i> waiting for her to come out, just to watch her<\/i> \u2014 and she wasn\u2019t anything to look at \u2014\u00a0we<\/i> can\u2019t even be quiet<\/i>. We can\u2019t stop from talking to our neighbor. We can\u2019t stop from reading a newspaper. We can\u2019t stop from writing in address books. We have to go in\u2014 to the bathroom. We have to have somebody walking up and down the aisle \u2014 I\u2019m not saying it\u2019s the older people, but, you know \u2014 bringing us drinks of water. Wo\u2014 I don\u2019t know. (Pause) In a way, I almost wish that he had<\/i> been that way, because maybe then we\u2019d listen. And when things\u2014<\/p>\n

Voice in church far away.<\/p>\n

Same woman: <\/b>I know. I\u2019m not saying I would be. But I\u2019m saying, the respect that I saw there for nothing, we\u2019re not getting for everything. And I think we had a lot to learn about the respect that went on back there, that we haven\u2019t got here. And I for one didn\u2019t keep it. So I\u2019m as guilty as anybody else.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, I heard both\u2014 both comments, uh\u2014 (sighs) it\u2019s a\u2014 it\u2019s a problem. (Pause) If you win people, usually, initially, the ma\u2014\u00a0mass of people are not where Professor [Edith] Roller would be. To have missed Professor Roller would be a great loss, \u2018cause she\u2019s a thinking person. She follows out of commitment of mind, not guts, but mind. But a great<\/i> mass of people, even with slightly lesser intellect than, than Professor Roller, are reached by enthusiasm and um, (Pause) the ardor of that kind of a\u2014 not the worship per\u2014 directed to me<\/i> but the ardor of it. (Tape edit?) Little of it Sunday. (Pause) Uh\u2014 there was respect, there wasn\u2019t anybody bowing before me, but it\u2014 it\u2014 it caused an enemy to get up and leave<\/i>. Enemy that would\u2019ve uh, taken their chances of doing bodily harm<\/i>. Wasn\u2019t connected with the peace mission, we have another enemy here, strangely enough, that was interested in doing something. Scouting the field. But that overwhelming zeal scared the liver out of him. He took off. It was a black man, seated by Sister Mueller, right next to her, and he took off.<\/p>\n

Woman in crowd: <\/b>Yes, and I seen that too, and I feel it was because you cleaned shelves. (unintelligible) come in and\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yeah, right, right. And I\u2014 I think<\/i> that what one has to know, uh\u2014 oh you don\u2019t\u2014 you\u2014 you worship\u2014 you worship lively, you don\u2019t seem like a dull sort. No one would ever think you were uninspired. I uh\u2014 What do you do<\/i> with these intellectuals who come in who think that they\u2019re pride themselves so much on not being a follower, (stumbles over words) really what they\u2019re pride themselves, you know, is, is being rebellious (short laugh) and they want to be anarchistic, and they pride themselves in this, but I\u2014 we\u2014 we got to find some leverage which we catch those people (Pause) before they get in here. (Pause) I would say, people be at the doors and scrutinize a little bit more, screen them\u2014 For instance, we find a Ukiahan\u2014 this\u2014\u00a0my statement ought to be (struggles for words)\u2014 how many people are greeters? (Pause) I don\u2019t like just talk. Greeters. Greeters. Those who greet people at thedoor. You get their names and you greet them. (Pause) I think we\u2019re going to have make a stronger movement uh\u2014 build up a stronger organization to meet everyone, \u2018cause we run into real trouble here Sunday. We had a priest\u2014 he was here for no good, and I got him out of here, but it was\u2014 it was rough<\/i>, because he was already in. Let\u2019s take it automatically. If you see a Ukiahan\u2014 (Pause) Unless\u2014 well, I don\u2019t think you can take any “unlesses”. She so\u2014 you should take their address\u2014\u00a0oh, I will be so in\u2014\u00a0glad to invite you to a meeting later, this happens to be our confessional meeting. Every one is<\/i>. This is the meeting where we have catharsis, and we\u2019re home very rare, which is true<\/i>. So uh\u2014 (Pause) Minute they say they\u2019re from Ukiah, \u2018cause I\u2019ve had a certain instruction<\/i> about that. Say, now you\u2014 if\u2014 if uh\u2014 give me your name and address, and phone number and I\u2019ll\u2014\u00a0I\u2019ll personally<\/i> \u2014\u00a0and I mean to hold to see it\u2019s done that way \u2014\u00a0see, it\u2019s gotten right in, right there, the\u2014\u00a0say, don\u2019t want to lose that address, Christine, I\u2019m looking at you, I\u2019m counting on you to implement this. I see how many other uh, greeters. (Pause) Laura. Say, I\u2019ll personally, personally uh, invite you when we have a meeting, regular puglic\u2014\u00a0public meeting<\/i>. We\u2019ll say and\u2014 but you gotta give them more reasons for this. Say that, in this confessional meeting sometimes, people don\u2019t feel at ease unless they know everybody.<\/p>\n

(Pause) Most important is to get uh, these intellectuals that hit us from Ukiah, \u2018cause we\u2019ve had trouble all week long. Karen certainly hasn\u2019t relegated any work there. She\u2019s done everything I\u2019ve told her to do, but I\u2019ve had to make uh\u2014 I had a certain set of wisdom for her to follow, explicitly, with the Roman Catholic priest, who thought he was a\u2014 a Greek priest who thought he was a prophet\u2014\u00a0a, a psychologist and so forth and so on. (Pause) If you run into these\u2014 these psychologists, some of you gotta get some things in your head. We gotta have a little schooling tonight. We need some briefing. We can\u2019t put it in writing. Maybe this oughta go round by telephone. Some things you need<\/i> to know when you\u2019re dealing with psychologist. Psychiatrists\u2014\u00a0Say oh, yes, we\u2019ve been praised very highly by one of the heads of the hospitals here. We were. Don\u2019t give the man\u2019s name, though, it\u2019s Van Dusen, but don\u2019t give it, because you might cause some pressure and he might back down under pressure. Or Dr. Perkins, the one that saw the miracles of the cri\u2014 the cripples walk, and the cancers pass, and he said it for real, we got his letter<\/i>. Said, we got the head of a state hospital, psychiatrist, doctor, who has said that the\u2014 this is the most honest and humanistic\u2014 I mean, you mention that too, to a psychologist. They\u2019re not so much interested in miracles as they are what Professor Roller\u2019s saying, the character. You tell about what the guy\u2014 what I\u2019m doing. And I will. I work, I clean, I uh, do every other thing uh, that any human being should<\/i> be that\u2019s dedicated to help their fellow man.<\/p>\n

(More emphatic) But then you project, that we\u2019ve got a doctor who\u2019s a head of hospital in Los Angeles \u2014 that\u2019s safe enough, I don\u2019t want to put him under pressure, either, \u2018cause it could get him some trouble with that American Medical Association, but it\u2019s Dr. Perkins, head of the big hospital there, who said these miracles are undeniably real. He set there service after service and watched them. Looked at the growths, saw the cripples, and he said, they\u2019re undeniably<\/i> real. He\u2019s a medical doctor and a psychiatrist. And if you quote<\/i> this \u2014 and here\u2019s the reason you quote this \u2014\u00a0\u2019cause these devils want to go out, and thinking they\u2019re psychologists, they\u2019ll give us some trouble. But if they know other psychologists and psychiatrists have praised<\/i> us, and other doctors have praised us, then they don\u2019t want to look like they\u2019re in\u2014\u00a0a fool<\/i>, you see. You see what I\u2019m sayin\u2019? I don\u2019t care who<\/i> comes there. If it\u2019s an engineer? We\u2019ve had engineers praise us. Politicians? We\u2019ve have politicians praise us. (Pause) Law enforcement people\u2014 and then always drop, with everybody, we\u2019ve had wonderful letters of praise from law enforcement people all over this United States, particularly in the Bay Area and local. (Pause) \u2018Cause people come in here\u2014\u00a0this, this Greek bunch was here to cause\u2014\u00a0I don\u2019t know what\u2019s up with these people. Liz Forman, are you here? She working? (Pause) What\u2019s with these people, anyway, that you work with?<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Stumbles over words) (Pause) Do they talk of\u2014 to the church, do they talk through the church uh, uh, to you? Talk against the church to you?<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> They said<\/i> you invited them. Did you invite them? They said again today<\/i>, they\u2014 this week, that you invi\u2014 they\u2014 you invited them. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Microphone turns on. Pause<\/p>\n

Liz: <\/b>Did you get the message that I\u2014 I\u2014 they told me they were coming, and they were going to bring this psychia\u2014 this psychologist. And, you know, I tried\u2014\u00a0I said\u2014 I (unintelligible word)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> The thing you shoulda done at that very first uh, juncture, is to\u2014 for us to get these instructions so clearly, say, we\u2019re\u2014 well, we\u2019re not having a meeting<\/i> yet. Say, I\u2019m sor\u2014 I\u2019m sorry that there\u2019s no meeting of\u2014 open to the public, it\u2019s just a business meeting and catharsis. So there no way. You shoulda stopped it right there, rather than have this embarrassment<\/i> of having to have them move<\/i>. \u2018Cause if they had heard some of the words that I used, socialism, so forth, they coulda been real trouble. That Greek\u2014 I have a fe\u2014 strongest feeling that this Greek outfit is connected so much with, not only the orthodox Greek Church, but it\u2019s connected with the infamous situation over in Greece<\/i>. (Pause) I have the strongest feeling that they are connected with fascist right-wing elements.<\/p>\n

Liz: <\/b>Now that\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> And uh\u2014\u00a0we sure don\u2019t need a\u2014\u00a0we don\u2019t need that kind of\u2014 and the Gre\u2014\u00a0the Greek government, to you that don\u2019t know<\/i> it, and that\u2019s why you need to be politicized, or be informed, you need to watch the ner\u2014\u00a0the news, the Greek government\u2019s the most racist government, the most dictatorial, tyrannical government today. And tho\u2014 when you<\/i> get somebody Greek pre\u2014\u00a0but in the first place, you get any preacher coming through there, I\u2014\u00a0I was so disheartened with the nation today, that took a TV poll of who was the most trusted in the\u2014 in the United States. Who the people trusted the most. Doctors first, and preachers second. I thought, boy, the people of America are really bad off. Trust in preachers second. I\u2019d trust a preacher last<\/i>. (Pause) I\u2019m not a preacher. I don\u2019t fit that role. \u2018Cause the best<\/i> of \u2018em, even as we\u2019ve heard here discussed in the movement in the East, you can\u2019t trust<\/i>. One thing I thought Purity said to me today that was very good, I thought that\u2019s wise, if I taught her that, that\u2019s fine, said Father\u2019s taught me one thing, to listen to anything I\u2014 believe what I hear. (Hmphs) Well, that\u2019s good. If it\u2019s taught you that. It\u2019s taught you to keep your ears and eyes open\u2014<\/p>\n

[End of Q 955]<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>\u2014and not be duped<\/i>. That\u2019s good. \u2018Cause too many people are duped. The whole nation is duped, to believe in preachers. And the\u2014 the statistical polls showed\u2014 the only one good thing it showed, the li\u2014 of the people they\u2014 they trusted the least were politicians, and used car salesmen.<\/p>\n

Congregation:<\/b> Laughter<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Now if they get the preachers\u2014 But you see why though they\u2014 they\u2014 they trust preachers, because we\u2019ve kept the Skygod, and we\u2019ve kept the Holy Bible, and nobody\u2019s ever told the truth about the Bible but Jim Jones. Nobody\u2019s ever told the truth about the church, but Jim Jones. So people think if the church is good and the Bible\u2019s good, and God\u2019s good, the preachers<\/i> ought to be good. So we gotta show them that the church is no good, and there isn\u2019t no God up there. We got to get that through<\/i> to someplace. Maybe not us per se<\/i>, but that\u2019s where it gotta start<\/i>, because they\u2019re gonna continue<\/i> to trust those rascals and be led off to destruction, until they see that the whole mess is just big cop-out. (Pause) Not only a cop-out but a fraud<\/i> game. These preachers are lazy<\/i>. They don\u2019t want to work. So when a preacher gets in there \u2014 we had two in here this Sunday \u2014 and the tane\u2014 name-takers, when you hear them, you oughta say, oh, so glad you ca\u2014 came. Wish that you could have come, this is\u2014\u00a0This is a\u2014 (Pause) (Snaps fingers) I don\u2019t know how I\u2019m gone do this, \u2018cause some of you young pe\u2014 children, you\u2019ll forget it and you\u2019ll call it a cathartic, instead of catharsis, I\u2019m sure.<\/p>\n

Congregation:<\/b> Laughter<\/p>\n

One voice:<\/b> Same thing.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I can just see what this is going to lead to. We\u2019re gonna\u2014 You\u2014\u00a0You just\u2014 You people will have to have written instructions to show your names to people every day, your name-takers. If we get this done tonight, it\u2019s very important. (Pause) And so the minute you hear the reverend\u2014\u00a0“Oh, I was so glad you came, but we uh, sorry that this is a meeting where we have confession,” and then go through what I told you. “Our people feel more at ease, they confess their faults to one another\u2014 one to another.” That\u2019s the Scripture. You use that Scripture. Confess your faults, one to another, that you might be healed. “And we have some business matters, and people feel more at ease if they know the people that are present.” Don\u2019t say, “members only.” That makes people think like, Aaah. Proud, s\u2014\u00a0starchy, too uppity to have anything to do with the o\u2014\u00a0other people. So handle it very carefully, but very discreetly<\/i>, and when anyone tells you they\u2019re coming to see your church \u2014\u00a0you hear what I\u2019m telling her now? \u2014<\/p>\n

Scattered voices:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>You say, “Oh, that\u2019s fine. Let me have your name and address, and I\u2019ll let you know when there is<\/i> a meeting. We\u2019re on the road so much<\/i>, but what we\u2019ll do, if there\u2019s enough people want to call, we\u2019ll call a special Saturday night meeting when we weren\u2019t going to have one.” And we\u2019ll be the straightest bunch of people you ever saw in your life. (Pause) We\u2019ll have a devotional service, we\u2019ll have Purity Lamb uh, sing, or we\u2019ll have uh, (Laughs) Valerie kneel down and pray and, Joy to read from the Bible and not cuss that night, or we\u2019ll swap her.<\/p>\n

Congregation:<\/b> Laughter<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(Laughs) We\u2019ll give them the night\u2014\u00a0one night! And then be finished<\/i> of it. Get them all together, get all the critics that want to come in here to spy out our liberty, get \u2018em and take care of them in one night. You won\u2019t say anything about me being a God that night, you\u2019ll look up there and do whatever they\u2014 keep \u2018em confused.<\/p>\n

Congregation:<\/b> Laughter<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>\u2018Cause they\u2014 it\u2019s the same se\u2014\u00a0if it applies in here, it\u2019s certainly going to apply out there. If you don\u2019t want to see goodness in me, they\u2019re not going to want to see God in me. \u2018Cause they got too much to lose<\/i> by seeing God in me. So they\u2019re not going to accept God in me. No, no preacher gonna accept God in me, \u2018cause he\u2019d lose his business, he\u2019d be out of business. \u2018Cause I\u2019m talking for myself, I don\u2019t need any preacher to talk for me, I\u2019m addressing the congregation on my own behalf<\/i>, I\u2019m speaking on my own behalf. So preacher\u2019s not going to take that. Do you understand what I said now? It\u2019s very important to get this in your mind. This isn\u2019t so important with you in the bay, because somebody out there is not as dangerous as someone right here at home. And I had an instruction a few years ago that\u2019s helped us they\u2014\u00a0avoid a lot of pain. Avoid a lot of pain. And that is to keep away from local people, or as Mother LeTourneau asked me today, what do you do if someone shows interest? Do you\u2014\u00a0Can you say, if I go into a place, they asked me what church? Yes, you don\u2019t go volunteering nothing, but if they ask you, say yes, I\u2014\u00a0I belong to Peoples Temple. Say, well, I\u2019m interested, I\u2019d like to come. Say, well, fine, we\u2019re not there very often, let me have your name and phone number, I\u2019ll let you know when we have a meeting. Then we can see how sincere they are. (Snaps fingers) We can bring them through one of these. If we see they\u2019re bored, we can get them aside and tell \u2018em what they really\u2014 what we really are. There\u2019s always ways of discerning<\/i> them, you see. We\u2019ve done this. I remember the first time we had John Biddulph, how we played that thing around, we had John Biddulph sitting over there. I remember how he was. I don\u2019t know where he is now, but, had him setting over there, we played that thing this way and that way, and watched it, which way did\u2014\u00a0which way the ball was going to roll. (Pause) And you get \u2018em on a night when it\u2019s an open night<\/i>, and bring \u2018em in. (Pause) Well, the star spangled waves<\/i>. It waves<\/i>. We\u2019re proud of this\u2014\u00a0of what it really<\/i> means, so it waves, so we don\u2019t have to say too much about that. It waves here. All right, uh, what\u2014 what\u2014\u00a0what has their feedback been since we\u2019ve done some pacification now?<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> Oh, ah, they\u2019re\u2014\u00a0they say they don\u2019t buy anything, that they had about five different stories. I acted like\u2014\u00a0(unintelligible phrase), Karen said na\u00efve. I wasn\u2019t in church, I said I didn\u2019t know. You know. But it\u2019s very (unintelligible word), very often they call these meetings, very quickly, they said, well, somebody told them they decided Tuesday night<\/i>. Why didn\u2019t I know about it? I said, well, I\u2019m not in the meetings very much, you know, I mean, I spend a lot of time out of the meetings. They said, well, you find out for us, \u2018cause we\u2014\u00a0we<\/i> think that they were threatened. We think Jim Jones himself got rid of us, and\u2014 I mean, then the psychiatrist said to the daughter of the\u2014 of the priest, that I\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>If you\u2019d been doing your job, they won\u2019t.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> Huh?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>If you do your job, they won\u2019t. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> If I do my job\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>They\u2019re threatened. They\u2019re threatened.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>You do their\u2014 your job, they won\u2019t feel uh, they won\u2019t feel that I\u2019m threatened by them.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> They said that\u2014 They felt that I<\/i>\u2014 the psychiatrist<\/i>, psychologist said this, that I<\/i> tipped you off.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> And that um\u2014 it was because I didn\u2019t like him. He knows I don\u2019t like him, and that, you know, that I asked you to get rid of him. (Sighs)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, you want to watch your job work, uh, right now, \u2018cause there\u2019s more riding on you than you ever thought.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> Say what?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>You must watch your pattern of work, because there\u2019s more riding on you than you ever knew. Because if you exhibit any kind of emotional instability or a poor work performance, they\u2019re going to be judging this whole group. They made some very unobjective statement there, they\u2019re not very good psychologist. But if they see anything to cause them to say that there\u2019s emotional instability here, (Pause) then you\u2019ve given the ammunition. Uh, you\u2014 you\u2014 (stumbles over words) What was their last statement you said to you, that if uh, they didn\u2019t buy this, that we\u2019re threatened.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> They felt that\u2014 that you might have picked up on some of their, you know, nega\u2014\u00a0not negativity, well, I forget the word they used, that they were questioning\u2014\u00a0they were looking around for you to be peeping out of a peephole.<\/p>\n

Jones and woman speak over each other.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, I\u2014\u00a0you\u2014 you\u2014\u00a0you\u2014 Tell you what you do. You go to them, and tell \u2018em that we\u2019re having a business meeting, but I want to see them, right when it\u2019s finished. I\u2019d like to see them. Like to have some coffee, uh yes, we have some, if the\u2014\u00a0the sisters will put it on over there, yes. You go call \u2018em, and see how threatened I am of those (low grumble)\u2014<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> If there\u2014 you really want me to do that?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I mean that.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> Right now?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Yeah, yeah, about 11 o\u2019clock. Tim Stoen, I would\u2014\u00a0Chaikin [Eugene Chaikin, Temple lawyer], and some of us who want to meet them.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Say, we\u2019re having our business meeting. They can come, we\u2019ll be over about 11 o\u2019clock\u2014 (Pause)<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> Shall I say\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>\u2014if they\u2019d like to come out, say, because I\u2019m going out of town.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> I think that\u2014\u00a0that\u2019s really a good idea.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Go, go. Say that you met\u2014 you say\u2014 you say, I didn\u2019t say everything, but I came to him and said\u2014 said what I felt, and they said, well, now, we want to get this communications barrier broken down. You go with \u2018em\u2014 (voice tails off)<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> Um, Jim? Now, shall I say that I went to try to find out what happened. They said, we<\/i> want you to find out what really happened. Like, when Gene talked to them the week before, they said to me, what did Gene Chaikin really<\/i> want? You know. So\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>To help with more human services<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> That\u2019s what I said. We\u2019re interested in children, you know, this kind of thing.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Yeah. Yeah.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> But, now shall I\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Anything threatening about\u2014<\/p>\n

End of side 3:<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Side 4:<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> \u2014the daughter gets information to me, because she doesn\u2019t like the psychologist, either. So that\u2019s why she told me that stuff, about\u2014 One thing\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>We get all this back in\u2014\u00a0coordinate your facts, and you people will know my mind and spirit enough to make this presentation. Offer to\u2014\u00a0say, we\u2019re just so infernal busy<\/i> here. We\u2019re getting ready to go to Los Angeles now. We got several thousand in a meeting there, and I\u2019ll be heading uh, to Los Angeles early. And that\u2019s just the way we\u2014 say, we got (unintelligible phrase)\u2014 has he got a moment?<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> Can\u2014 then the daughter<\/i> said, that she was thinking about becoming a member\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(Sighs) Oh, dear God\u2014<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> \u2014and she wants to talk with you personally, and I said, well, it\u2019s very difficult to talk to our pastor because he\u2019s very\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, tell her to come too.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> I\u2014 Tell her to come too. Okay.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Yes, Yes. Come too. Everybody invited.<\/p>\n

Congregation:<\/b> Laughter. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Now we\u2019re going\u2014\u00a0We get\u2014\u00a0Listen. We might even (unintelligible phrase; could be “get in on the”) tail end of this. We\u2019ll throw them some loops<\/i> tonight. If they want to come in and see the big business about closing, they can come in for a few minutes. We\u2019ll have no healing here tonight, you hear? Only what I do\u2014 (laughs) under the table. See?<\/p>\n

Congregation:<\/b> Laughter, then applause<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>And we\u2019ll talk about humanism, service work, highest worship to God is what we see God, service to uh\u2014\u00a0service to our fellow man. Some of you\u2019ll be agnostics and humanists, and when I say you\u2019re an a\u2014 an atheist, you\u2019ll be one tonight. Or if I say you\u2019re a fundamentalist, you\u2019ll be one. Right?<\/p>\n

Congregation:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>If I say you, then you\u2014 you be it. We want\u2014 We\u2014 The reason\u2014\u00a0Why are we doing this? We\u2019ve got some really<\/i> bad enemies that are up to no good. We\u2019ve gotta throw them\u2014\u00a0we\u2019ve gotta give them a wrong scent. They think they got one scent. We\u2019re going to have to give them another scent. (Pause) Now, he that winneth souls is wise. The only thing is, you tell<\/i> what you\u2019re doing to one another. You don\u2019t lie to each other<\/i>. We li\u2014\u00a0We tell each other what we\u2019re doing. (Pause) Paul said, what deceivers yet true<\/i>. We\u2019re true to each other, but we don\u2019t let the folk outside know where we are. Until they\u2019re honest, and want to come in with us. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>We believe in\u2014\u00a0The Father believes in healing. All right.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, we\u2019ve had enough healings. You can tell them (unintelligible word) enough healings. You\u2014 You can tell him\u2014 Chaikin, you ought to go back there to have a word too, you can tell him you were healed of cancer. Tell the Father\u2014\u00a0The Father believes in healing. (Pause) The thing to do, if somebody believes in healings, say, yes, that\u2019s uh, true, I\u2014\u00a0he can heal you, and you\u2019ll need him someday. (Pause) Patty\u2019s [probably Patty Cartmell] got a good one. When they start talking about me, she says, “You look just like somebody I knew the day before they died.”<\/p>\n

Congregation:<\/b> Laughter.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(Laughs) That\u2019s the way you deal with mean folk. And back to professor, that we got to learn how to uh\u2014 We need<\/i> enthusiasm, because they need to see we\u2019re do\u2014\u00a0we\u2019re together. We don\u2019t need to be reading in presence of a leader. It doesn\u2019t bother me. But we need to have that respect for me when I speak, and there needs to be ovation, and uh, uh, elation and enthusiasm. It\u2019s got to be<\/i>. If we don\u2019t have it, someone who\u2019s been following a lesser light<\/i>, and being emotionally inspired by that, they\u2019ll think we haven\u2019t got anything worth selling. And if somebody\u2019s bothered<\/i> by that, it\u2019s the duty<\/i> of you to watch around<\/i> you, and then get them to a social worker, get them to some of our uh, people who have had professional and intellectual backgrounds, and they can present the other<\/i> aspect. You<\/i> can tell when you got an intellectual. And find that out, workers. Don\u2019t bring it to me in my<\/i> attention, bring it to the uh, attorneys and bring it to the\u2014\u00a0someone like Professor Roller<\/i>, here, who\u2019s been a college teacher<\/i>. Bring it to them<\/i>. Let them deal with that. I won\u2019t have to fool with that. You understand what I\u2019m trying to get across?<\/p>\n

Scattered:<\/b> Yes.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>You\u2019re not bringing me anything about them personally. It\u2019s just helping you\u2014 the, the family to better safeguard against this kind of thing. All right. Do you got any questions about what you\u2019re doing back there? (Short laugh)<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Oh, let uh, let uh, you, and I think we can say, you can make the call, and you got Mrs. Forman there, and she\u2019s\u2014\u00a0she thought she\u2019d try to find out what he\u2019s after, to find out\u2014\u00a0or somebody\u2019s asked her to find out what was going on, and so she has<\/i>, and you\u2019re just calling to say what went on<\/i>. Said that they probably<\/i> let you stay through the music, it maybe was oversight, but then, some saw you through the music, and thought, well, it\u2019s all right for you to stay. There was no confessions then, no\u2014 no catharsis. No encounter sessions then. If they want to sound intellectual, you can out-intellectualize their intellectual (Pause) level. (Pause) Just as long as you got one<\/i> story here. Be sure you got the same story, before you start calling. Yes.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I\u2019m fine. (Pause) Tell them about some songs we sing that have nothing to do with religion. We sing \u2018em lively. “Blowing In The Wind.” That isn\u2019t controversial enough. Say, you ought to hear our choir singing, “Blowing In The Wind.” (Pause) You oughta hear\u2014 you oughta really throw it up and say, you ought to hear them sing a song, “Can You Imagine” [“Imagine” by John Lennon]. We sing my favorite song. Say\u2014\u00a0All right, you gotta really throw the pastor out. Our favorite song, uh, the pastor\u2019s favorite song, if they have any\u2014\u00a0the priest doesn\u2019t have that, but the other psychologist\u2014 any agnostic, tell \u2018em, our favorite\u2014\u00a0the favorite song of our favorite is “Can You Imagine.” There\u2019s no heaven.<\/p>\n

Congregation:<\/b> Laughter<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>That really will throw<\/i> them.<\/p>\n

Congregation:<\/b> Stirring.<\/p>\n

(Tape off for unknown length of time, but pause is several seconds)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> All right. Yes.<\/p>\n

Older woman:<\/b> Father, I\u2019m not trying to tell you how to do, but I was wondering what\u2019s\u2014\u00a0what\u2019s with\u2014\u00a0why we can\u2019t do like the Muslims do. I saw them one time take a lady\u2019s wig off. They take the wig off and examine you from head to toe. No one ever gets hurts in there. You\u2019re never getting threatened in there. They take your wig off and examine it, and I mean they\u2014\u00a0you know. (Laughs) I know that\u2019ll take a lot of time\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(unintelligible under woman) We get some attorneys in here, and then I thought come in my mind, they just tell me false arrest. We have no right\u2014\u00a0we have no right to be yanking\u2014\u00a0we have no way\u2014\u00a0We could get assault and battery, we\u2014\u00a0we yank people\u2019s uh, wigs off, we\u2019ll have a lot of suits<\/i>. It\u2019s a thought<\/i>, though. These wigs can really be pulled off quick, and uh, that has been used<\/i> for assassination. (Pause) Aw, it\u2019s a bad time to be alive.<\/p>\n

Older woman:<\/b> (unintelligible lead in) comes in\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Hmm?<\/p>\n

Older woman:<\/b> \u2014or\u00a0not so much, you know, they touch you around your head and give you the once-over, you know, and all this (unintelligible word under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>No, I\u2014 I\u2014 (stumbles over words) I don\u2019t know. I\u2014\u00a0I sure wouldn\u2019t go that church a second time after\u2014 (laughs)<\/p>\n

Congregation:<\/b> Laughter<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>\u2018Course, I know some sisters would probably return, but that\u2019d be uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Congregation:<\/b> Laughter<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Some brothers too<\/i>. But I\u2014\u00a0I wouldn\u2019t uh\u2014\u00a0(Pause) I don\u2019t know, I think we\u2019re going to have to have those\u2014\u00a0Sister, in all fairness to your suggestion, I think we\u2019re going to have to have something like the Fruit of Islam um, in the security. I think there\u2019re gonna have to be uniformed\u2014\u00a0some, and some not. Uh, some just make this\u2014 ah, just to make it so\u2014 so apparent that you know what you\u2019re doing that they won\u2019t fool with you. I think that there has to be that. And I don\u2019t think most people gonna risk coming in, when there\u2019s about 15 guns. That\u2019s why I would like to\u2014\u00a0did she already get your\u2014 your mind and your spirit<\/i> in a\u2014\u00a0in position that you could hold<\/i> one of those guns, then I won\u2019t feel (Pause) that there\u2019s any hypocrisy<\/i> to it. So that we really could have<\/i> that kind of a security<\/i>. (Pause) There you go. Right by here. (Pause) That\u2019s why there\u2019s no point<\/i> in us pulling out our lives to try to keep ourselves straight, or reach on down to San Francisco to do any more of it, unless we will keep our teaching here. I\u2014 I\u2019m very<\/i> concerned that uh, (Pause) I think Gene Chaikin made the point, and you can be giving him credit, he\u2019s not in the room presently, that when we get diversified, or spread about, that influence gonna be hard to maintain<\/i>. (Pause) We\u2019ll have to have a meeting here a week. There no question about it. And I think something else gonna be required, that no matter who<\/i> the member is\u2014<\/p>\n

(Pause) Some do it now, and I was disturbed, I had reports, I don\u2019t want to bring it up tonight, I had reports people were not in meeting, you were in ice cream<\/i> shop, getting ice cream, while I was here, pouring out my soul Sunday night, in one case. Another was home asleep. (Pause) That hurts<\/i>. And your disobedience, doing after your children<\/i>, babes, you\u2019re\u2014 you\u2019re creating a problem, \u2018cause your children gonna create rebellion, and you\u2014 they\u2019re\u2014\u00a0they\u2019re not gonna be turning against you<\/i> on\u2014\u00a0me<\/i> only, it\u2019s going to be turned against you<\/i>. \u2018Cause they\u2019ll say, well, Dad, Mom, you did it. I\u2019ll do what I please. And it\u2019ll be turned against<\/i> you. Every time I\u2019ve had it, uh, had rebellion shown, the children end up using that rebellion far more against the parent than they did to me. I\u2019m going to make this requirement. That wherever we are, no matter what your work is, no matter what your capacity, if you\u2019re in charge of a senior citizen home, or a children\u2019s home, we\u2019re going to make it our ultimate<\/i> to be in every meeting, but at one meeting a week absolutely necessary. (Pause) And I think it ought to be made (Pause) that you turn to council (Pause) a little card or a letter or just a sheet a\u2014\u00a0a week. Say, you turn them in here on Tuesday nights to the council, in the future, any council member, and they put them together, a statement of where you are or what you think about this work. And I\u2019ll be able to go over them too. And I will, you can bet your life.<\/p>\n

(Pause) We\u2019ve got to keep close<\/i> tabs on this family, to see that things don\u2019t happen. And if you\u2019ve got anything to confess, you better mark it, “Personal, Pastor Only.” \u2018Cause I don\u2019t walk into any kind of messes like I did here. We\u2019ve not resolved the problem yet with our one brother. We started with Brother Herman. I don\u2019t want to walk<\/i> into any more problems, I want to know<\/i> about them from you<\/i>, not by discernment. Do you understand? (Pause) You\u2019re quite right. I\u2019m reluctant to put anybody out. But you are also wrong, if you think I\u2019m not going to very soon, (Pause) because I\u2019m going to have<\/i> to, (Pause) because nobody believes it\u2019ll happen. But it might interest you to know<\/i> that a whole lot of people from San Francisco were dropped from their telephone dispatch, it was just like that (snaps fingers). I said, drop them. (Pause) I think of Charlie Mudd, I said, drop him. That\u2019s one example. If you don\u2019t think I do it. I said, drop him. Don\u2019t you give him another message. Period. He didn\u2019t say he was quitting. I said, don\u2019t give him any more messages. And don\u2019t assume, if you\u2019re not getting your messages, that\u2019s what happened to you, because sometimes mistakes happen. But if you give any\u2014 any dander<\/i> to any one of these callers, you\u2019re just liable to be dropped<\/i>. \u2018Cause I\u2019m tired of fooling with it. If you think one\u2014 we got messages gonna come through one night to save you and your family\u2019s life, and we\u2019ll even take in some loved ones that don\u2019t belong to the family. No doubt on that, that two week period. Trying to save them out of generosity to you. If you think, with the information that I hold<\/i>, it\u2019s not worth you being patient and kind to my callers, I\u2019ll just not have you bothered at all, and you won\u2019t be bothered when it\u2019s something that\u2019s going to save you from being des\u2014\u00a0destroyed. (Pause) Do I make myself clear?<\/p>\n

Subdued voices:<\/b> Yes.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Yes, uh.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Now, you were supposed to have a caller.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Is it Windsor? Now we\u2014\u00a0we went through that two weeks ago, didn\u2019t we, or three?<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>(Mike cuts it) \u2014month ago, (unintelligible word), Father, because I give her two telephone\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Yeah, I know, but this\u2014 \u2018cause I personally asked somebody to take care of this. When was this?<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>Oh, it was like, it was a month\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Two weeks ago?<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>Oh, I don\u2019t know, I didn\u2019t hear, I wasn\u2019t here, but I know you just, about a month\u2014\u00a0about two months\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>No, Kay [probably Kay Nelson], well, whenever. Now who<\/i> uh, who<\/i> is the world\u2014\u00a0Is Jane Mutschmann? (Pause) Will you<\/i> see that this sister is put on that calling list? (Pause) Maybe Bea Morton could take her\u2014 in that situation, it would be of some saving\u2014 People talk with her. I want this not to happen anymore, \u2018cause there no reason for you not to be on the calling list. They just happen to be in a little city, they have a business, a nursing home right between here and Santa Rose\u2014\u00a0Santa Rosa. Closer to Santa Rosa than here, about halfway between here and San Francisco. So they\u2019ve got to know what\u2019s going on<\/i>. Or they\u2019ll miss the important message<\/i>. You wouldn\u2019t, though. I wouldn\u2019t\u2014\u00a0I\u2019d know you\u2014 I\u2019d get you. I know you people. You\u2019d be told. Don\u2019t worry about it. But, no reason why you can\u2019t get your messages. All right, Herman, I think they closed that down, this chapter, uh\u2014 (Pause) You understand what you\u2019ve gotta do, brother, return to these\u2014\u00a0this good work patterns that you can<\/i> do, and what we believing you for, to assume now you get with the boys tonight, my so\u2014\u00a0my sons down there in the house<\/i>, the children that I have down in that house, and talk to them about work routine and uh, what is required. And I would like for you to look at the cages to see that they\u2019re mended, little things like that that need, the little goats, those little nannies have gotten out twice, little places in the fence they can get out, dogs could get them. The dogs have been peaceful<\/i>, but areas like that. Um. There\u2019s a rooster down there that is people<\/i>-oriented. George will not go even\u2014\u00a0He won\u2019t go anywhere to get water, unless the water\u2019s to him. He\u2019ll die of thirst. He will not go around chickens. He has come out of chicken mortality, and he will not go around chickens. If it means he dies of thirst or food, he will not go near a chicken. Most beautiful rooster down there, won\u2019t have a thing to do with one of them. He walks around with those dogs, and they get in his way, he plucks them on the nose, and those dogs back off, and they don\u2019t know what to do, they\u2019d like to bite his head off, but they\u2014 they\u2019re afraid<\/i> of him, they don\u2019t know whether he\u2014 they\u2014 they\u2019ve also been convinced\u2014\u00a0see, if you believe enough in yourself, and we believe enough in our principle, it causes the great big dogs of the system, and all your enemies, to begin to back off from<\/i> you. \u2018Cause everybody backs off from George. He\u2014\u00a0he flogs those dogs, I\u2019ve never seen anything<\/i> jump a dog right head on. When he\u2019s eating\u2014\u00a0\u2018cause you gotta bring the food to him. He wants to eat out of your hand. Very spoiled. But if\u2014\u00a0if they come to get his food, he\u2019ll flog<\/i> them right there, right there on the spot. And that monkey can handle anything but him. He\u2019ll chase that monkey clear around that house.<\/p>\n

Congregation: <\/b>Laughter<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>George will not put up with one bit of foolishness out of that monkey. But he\u2014 uh, water, he won\u2019t go to water. Today, he was almost famished for water. So if you could help, uh\u2014\u00a0he wo\u2014\u00a0he sticks right around that porch, you know, won\u2019t go much away from it. Be careful when you\u2019re driving too, friends, \u2018cause when George walks in around there, you see him walking around the parking lot. He walks up at night, and he smells that food, and he comes up here.<\/p>\n

Voice too low<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Good. Good. Let\u2019s get this money, of\u2014 offering. Okay. Now you\u2014 And if you don\u2019t, you\u2019ll make your plans where you would want to move, because you\u2019ll be under six months removal, and I don\u2019t want that to happen. So, go over anything you\u2019ve got any question about from this council tonight. Perhaps you ought to meet with them again Monday, just for a brief time, to know that you understand everything\u2019s required of you.<\/p>\n

Herman: <\/b>Okay. Okay.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Thank you.<\/p>\n

Herman: <\/b>Thank you.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>All right, let\u2019s uh\u2014\u00a0let\u2019s quickly uh, give our offering as uh, much as we can. (Pause) (Stumbles over words) Every one of you, now, now, instead of writing it, I want you to stand and tell me what it is, right now. Stand and tell me what it is. (Pause) Put away your\u2014 put away your pictures of me right now, will you? Put them down in your bra. We got folk coming. See, we got folk coming. (Pause) Everyone tell her what you\u2019re giving, right now. Stand\u2014\u00a0you\u2014 no, don\u2019t give it to anybody else, don\u2019t rush her, don\u2019t\u2014\u00a0not one usher take it. Stand and tell me what it is. \u2018Cause I\u2019ve got somebody adding here.<\/p>\n

Voice too far away.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Shhh!<\/p>\n

Voice too far away.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>A hundreds dollars, huh, that\u2019s pledged. That\u2019s a pledge made, though, is it. He\u2019s filling a pledge. Shh! Quickly!<\/p>\n

Voice too far away.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>All right. Thank you. Take this. What is it? Pledges, uh, no, don\u2019t\u2014 don\u2019t count the\u2014\u00a0be sure to preface it, if it\u2019s a pledge, as\u2014\u00a0I can\u2019t add that, ah, so I can put it down and you get credit. Take the brother right there, he\u2019s got the (voice trails off)<\/p>\n

Voice away from mike<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Thank you. Get the pledges there, folk.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/b> Shout it out, so we can hear it.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Ev\u2014 don\u2019t want no\u2014 usher, don\u2019t take anything from anyone. Anyone\u2014 Everyone tell me. Quickly. Let\u2019s get this over with.<\/p>\n

Voice away from mike<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Hmm? What? (Pause) (Stumbles over word) You\u2019ve made a pledge, and you\u2019re paying it. Don\u2019t count that. Loud. I mean, we\u2019re\u2014 we\u2019ll c\u2014 count that on you, or crediting it you. Credit. Just when you hear something not pledged, write it down. (Pause) Shh! Everyone?<\/p>\n

(Tape edit)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>He manifests God or good more than anybody I know. I\u2019ve never seen anyone that lived as honest as he did. You understand what I\u2019m saying? You don\u2019t call me Father or Savior or anything right here. This is a good experience for us. We ought to deal with these things together, so we can learn.<\/p>\n

Voice away from mike<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>You\u2019re going to have<\/i> to have it quiet. You have to\u2014<\/p>\n

Male:<\/b> Would you please\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Shh!<\/p>\n

Male:<\/b> Be quiet. He\u2019s speaking<\/i> to you.<\/p>\n

Voice away from mike<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Ushers, will you get a tight rein on this place?<\/p>\n

Voices away from mike<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(Unintelligible phrase), Harold, I\u2019ve only freed you and Jim Bogue with weapons until I hear from other folk, and I don\u2019t have time to hear from them tonight. So that means tonight that no\u2014 know some of you would qualify<\/i> I\u2019m sure. But I am gonna be criticized, if I don\u2019t follow that procedure one hundred percent, and that\u2019s it. Each of you have to be\u2014\u00a0pass qualifications on your own, with a statement in writing, briefly or\u2014\u00a0that I approve or a, a verbal statement. Yes, Mother.<\/p>\n

Voice away from mike<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Tha\u2014\u00a0thank you. Hundred dollar pledge. That\u2019s very sweet. We need it. You see, we\u2019re on\u2014 negotiating on a building, we\u2019ve got\u2014\u00a0we\u2019ve got to raise the money on this building across here, the new convalescent home and the extra housing that we have there, and the gardens. And the building we\u2019re negotiating on down the Bay. (Pause) Any other announcements? Quick, now. Let\u2019s get them through. Right now. Quick. I don\u2019t want a lot of\u2014\u00a0don\u2019t want a lot of uh\u2014 I don\u2019t want anything<\/i> controversial. We want to be\u2014<\/p>\n

Male:<\/b> There\u2019s going to be a joint choir rehearsal with the Los Angeles Choir at 10 o\u2019clock when we get there. I haven\u2019t had a chance to talk\u2014\u00a0We usually get there about 9 o\u2019clock or so, and uh, as soon as we can get there and get set up, we\u2019re going to have a choir rehearsal with them, so everybody that goes on this trip, don\u2019t take off. When you get to that church, wait.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Now, listen. Now, hear<\/i> it. Now someone\u2019s already said they can\u2019t say “Jim” to me tonight. I\u2019m ordering you to say “Jim.”<\/p>\n

Congregation: <\/b>Right.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>And that applies to everyone. No exceptions tonight<\/i>. Because we\u2019re dealing with some st\u2014 some people tonight<\/i>, and we\u2019ve got to be\u2014 \u2018cause it\u2019s “Jim” tonight. (Pause) You\u2014 You won\u2019t be taking away respect from me by “Jim,” and you\u2014 and giving me respect doesn\u2019t uh, come, just by saying “Father.” (Pause) It\u2019s deeds and actions that show respect for me, like being quiet right now. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Voice away from mike<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Yes.<\/p>\n

Joicy Clark:<\/b> And is (unintelligible name “Agnes?”) Robertson uh, will provide for four people to go to a special trial tomorrow, we\u2019re supposed to go someplace to Sacramento or somewhere.<\/p>\n

Jones and woman speak over each other<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Where\u2019re the attorneys\u2014 where\u2019re the attorneys on this special trial? I want that out of the way.<\/p>\n

Clark:<\/b> Yes, I just want to say very quick, that she\u2014 see, (same name) Robinson, she\u2014 she\u2014 she can give four people a ride, but they got to tell just where they can be at. (Pause) An hour, at eight o\u2019clock. It\u2019ll be at eight o\u2019clock.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I don\u2019t understand this, uh. Wait, uh, wait just a minute, Sister Clark, and he\u2019ll\u2014 Joicy, he\u2019ll be here in a minute.<\/p>\n

Clark:<\/b> Okay. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(low voice) Thank you.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> Um, the Chaikin children are returning Sunday night, and David, the little boy who\u2019s nine, has a minor neurological uh, handicap, and he is\u2014 it has been suggested, where he is been\u2014\u00a0being treated at the UC Medical Center, that he has someone\u2014\u00a0that he has someone play ping pong and other games of coordination with him, uh, quite often, and I think it would be nice if we could get some older teenage boys and girls who might volunteer on a regular basis, or even uh, uh, another\u2014 you know, an adult woman or man. It doesn\u2019t matter. But we do<\/i> need someone, or a few<\/i> people who are going to volunteer and maybe take it (sighs) under their wing to see<\/i> that he gets exercise that will help him coordinate. He has eye\u2014 it\u2019s called dyslex\u2014 dyslexia, I believe, and it\u2019s a coordination problem. So I\u2019d like some volunteers now.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Quickly, quickly\u2014<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> Okay\u2014 Fine\u2014 Ah, we<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>\u2014respond to these things, get these over with. Very young, although this kind of thing would not be\u2014 I mean, this would be suitable<\/i>\u2014\u00a0this type of thing would be suitable for the\u2014 for him when we come.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> Right. Well, you see\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>We better be\u2014\u00a0Some of you better be down there getting creative minds, Don, Christine and something, uh, bring up certain situations here, if we\u2014 (speaks off mike)<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> Will you see Phyllis [probably Phyllis Chaikin, could be Phyllis Houston] after the meeting, so you can coordinate child\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>We have a home for a child, (unintelligible phrase), we get a volunteer quickly, and there are dogs, (stumbles over words), get\u2014 get together, get up there and s\u2014 you and J\u2014\u00a0uh, Mickey [probably Mickey Touchette] and uh, Christine, set up there and uh\u2014 people sitting on that uh, stage, get together. Carol? Go ahead, now, Jen, uh, Claire [probably Claire\u00a0Janaro], you can be up there too. We better si\u2014\u00a0uh, simulate, assimilate\u2014 (Pause) Vera Young? (Pause) Vera Young? Where\u2019s Vera Young? (Pause) Hmm? Well, it\u2019ll be all right. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Elderly woman:<\/b> Uh, I just wanted to tell you all about the ride tomorrow. It wasn\u2019t me giving them the ride, it was my daughter. She\u2014 I asked her about going to San Mateo, or wheresomever it was, be\u2014 because I didn\u2019t have convenient way, and she told me tonight, announced that she can take five<\/i> down there, and she would, and she said she would have to have some gas, and you all just sit the price for that, and whatsoever you give her, she\u2019ll go for<\/i> that. And she would like to have uh, certain points to pick them all up at one place, but she\u2019ll take them all back to their homes where they came from, but have one place in the morning to pick them up, and tell me what time to tell her to pick them up, and where. (Pause) And I live at 591 Waller, but I know they wouldn\u2019t\u2014 all wouldn\u2019t be there, they could be closer to where they<\/i> live, and we\u2019ll go there<\/i> and pick them up. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Voice too soft<\/p>\n

Younger woman:<\/b> Uh, we have two people in our home who, who want to go down to San Francisco to the trial, and they need a place to stay there tonight, so they\u2019ll be there in the morning to be picked up. Can someone volunteer their home for these women to stay in? Okay.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> How many do you need?<\/p>\n

Younger woman:<\/b> Three\u2014\u00a0okay, five. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Elderly woman:<\/b> Well, they all<\/i> can meet there at my home, if they desire to, at 591 Waller.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Say it again.<\/p>\n

Elderly woman:<\/b> 591 Waller.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/b> How many are going down? How many are going down to the (mike cut off)<\/p>\n

(Long pause)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(stumbles over words) Would you, Rick, uh, have them introduce again uh, publicly because (Pause) it would be clearer. I\u2019m not sure I\u2019m certain on that last name. Names don\u2019t stick with me until I get to know people<\/i> better. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Rick:<\/b> We\u2019d like to welcome our guests tonight again, and we\u2019d like to have them give each of their names, so that you will understand who they are and appreciate them here.<\/p>\n

Maria Katsaris:<\/b> Maria Katsaris.<\/p>\n

Rick:<\/b> Maria Katsaris.<\/p>\n

Congregation:<\/b> Applause<\/p>\n

Steven Katsaris:<\/b> And I\u2019m Steven Katsaris.<\/p>\n

Rick:<\/b> Steven Katsaris. (Pause) And this is his wife.<\/p>\n

Ann Katsaris:<\/b> Ann Katsaris.<\/p>\n

Rick:<\/b> Ann Katsaris.<\/p>\n

Congregation:<\/b> Applause. Pause<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>This chair has no significance other than it\u2019s for a tired preacher, tired leader. We use it for that, to accommodate me. I had to teach school, about 80 miles round trip for so many years that, when I got through teaching, I liked a place to sit down, and I\u2019ve been self-supporting through the years, so I said, if I\u2019d let the people seat\u2014 uh, be seated, would they give me the same privilege, so, this is the one, one way I can be seated and still see the people, so it has no religious significance whatsoever. We understood that there were uh, some communication breakdown. There was some communication breakdown Sunday between you and our group, and I don\u2019t, um, bear a record of what all it entailed, uh, but I thought the best way, if it was possible<\/i>, for you to come and meet us, and we could chat and we get to know each other better, because there certainly was a bad misunderstanding in reference to your attendance Sunday. Um\u2014 Usually, when we have a catharsis \u2014 not always<\/i>, we can\u2019t say strictly<\/i> always, but usually \u2014 uh, the people feel more at ease if they are familiar<\/i> with the people present. And we do get in some pretty strong discussions. We have uh, outright encounter sessions in which we handle things that I think usually<\/i> are handled on smaller group level. We say most anything<\/i> to each other, and to someone who understood<\/i> that\u2014 and very likely, you would<\/i>, with your training, you could jive<\/i> this and probably jive it a whole lot better than what you saw in our religious<\/i> setting, because we have a religious stance that we assume<\/i> for the needs of those who are more orthodox. But in our encounter sessions, there are no holds barred. Uh, we have both liberal and orthodox people here. We have agnostics and fundamentalists. We have some who see me in a very important role of a spiritual being, and others who see me just as Jim Jones. Uh, most people call me just Jim Jones, but uh, uh, varying uh, depending upon their philosophy of life, uh, they interpret me accordingly. Um, but uh, Sunday, you were asked to leave, and also one of our own denominational leaders, Reverend Coatney by name, and uh, it\u2019s all a unfortunate misinformation that should\u2019ve been given at the door<\/i>. You should\u2019ve been so instructed at the door, so it wouldn\u2019t have had to been handled. I was not involved personally in it. Uh, they\u2014\u00a0it was related that someone thought that I<\/i> had in\u2014 asked you to leave. Well, I didn\u2019t. I could care less who\u2019s present, personally, because I don\u2019t mind here let\u2014 letting the whole world hear what I have to say. But others feel that certain situations are a bit too (unintelligible word: tedgious?) for them to bear, unless they get to know people.<\/p>\n

[Do] You have any uh, questions that you might like to ask of us, uh, along any<\/i> line, what we believe or what we stand for or uh\u2014 we\u2019re deeply\u2014 we wanted to call you to frankly apologize on a staff level, and I thought it\u2019d be good for as many as present. This is not a total meeting, but at least it\u2019s committees that represent the\u2014 the group. It\u2019s a cross-sectional representation, that we would apologize to you directly<\/i> for this bad situation that occurred, that you ha\u2014\u00a0your having to leave after being seated. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Steven Katsaris:<\/b> Thank you. I have no questions, other than to tell you I\u2019m (Pause) very happy you invited me here this evening. It\u2019s a pleasure to meet you.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, that\u2019s kind of you to come.<\/p>\n

Jones and Katsaris speak over each other<\/p>\n

Steven Katsaris:<\/b> I\u2019m sorry. I really want you to know that there was uh, no enmity in my heart uh. I\u2014 I don\u2019t feel that\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones and Katsaris speak over each other<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, this is what I said, there wouldn\u2019t be. I said there would be no enmity, but, from what we got\u2014 the feedback (unintelligible word) today, there might have been some, some hurt feelings<\/i> here, so I wanted to be assured\u2014 I thought that\u2014 from what I\u2019ve heard of you, which has been good, that you would probably understand that there had been just that<\/i>, a communication breakdown. But we\u2019re certainly<\/i>, uh, delighted to find people that show that much interest to come out to an inter-racial group. We feel isolated, uh, too much at times, uh\u2014 You\u2019re probably all too familiar that not everyone these days feel warmly<\/i> to a, a real ex\u2014\u00a0ex\u2014\u00a0experiment in, in brotherhood, a real demonstration in brotherhood. (Pause) But we would just like to share with you in any way, if you have\u2014<\/p>\n

End of tape<\/strong><\/p>\n

[Editor\u2019s note<\/strong>: This address is almost certainly followed by Q 1021-A<\/a>.]<\/p>\n

Tape originally posted April 2002<\/b><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you. To return to the Tape Index, click here.\u00a0To listen to MP3, click here. To read the Tape Summary, click here.\u00a0To read the Annotated Transcript,\u00a0click here. Lee Ingram: \u2014who is continuing to (pause)\u2014 No one should be […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":6,"featured_media":0,"parent":27291,"menu_order":685,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-27307","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27307","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/6"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=27307"}],"version-history":[{"count":9,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27307\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":68989,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27307\/revisions\/68989"}],"up":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27291"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=27307"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}