{"id":27392,"date":"2013-06-16T00:19:54","date_gmt":"2013-06-16T00:19:54","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/alternativejonestown.com\/?page_id=27392"},"modified":"2023-06-18T17:11:46","modified_gmt":"2023-06-19T00:11:46","slug":"q242","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=27392","title":{"rendered":"Q242 Transcript"},"content":{"rendered":"

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.<\/strong><\/i><\/p>\n

To return to the Tape Index, click here<\/a>.
\nTo read the Tape Summary, click here<\/a>. Listen to MP3 (Pt. 1<\/a>, Pt. 2<\/a>, Pt. 3<\/a>, Pt. 4<\/a>).<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(tape comes on in mid-sentence)\u2014\u00a0any light in here, folks. (Pause) We\u2019ll have to have a flashlight or something, or\u2014 I\u2019ll try. I\u2019ll try. (Pause) Meanwhile the tests will go on as usual. Or news. We may not use as many phrases about, uh, capitalism or imperialism. We may<\/i>. Depends upon how I feel. Whatever I see as a sense of the pulse. Sorry to have held you up so much tonight, but we have some important people there. The head of the Young Socialist Movement\u2014 and I was able to enlighten<\/i> them \u2014 not indoctrinate<\/i> them, but enlighten<\/i> them \u2014 although there were many atheists in the circle<\/i>, I was glad to see. Most of them nodded their head when I said we have atheists here. Lots of atheists. I told them about their churches, and so forth, but the people that were\u2014 one woman was very sweet, Comrade Jackson, a black woman that reminded me very much of the lady that sings “Never Made\u2014 “Never Met a Man Who Sings Like This Man Before,” or, or “Speaks Like This Man Before,” rather. Well, anyway, they were, uh\u2014 All<\/i> departmental people from around Guyana. Important positions. One was the, uh, in the doctrine<\/i>, in the, in the doctrine\u2014 they call it the doctrinaire aspect of the policy, indoctrination, politically socialism. They have to do it in all the schools<\/i>. Heavy, heavy mandates come down, absolute indoctrination. So she was wondering, being that our bo\u2014 school, school was approved<\/i>, she couldn\u2019t get religion and socialism reconciled. So I had to call a senior, and uh, fortunately Jane came through<\/i>, I don\u2019t know whether she understood what I was talking about, but when asked somebody, Party, Party, I mean PNC, I\u2019m not asking about no other kind of goddamn party, I said, which is our party<\/i>? If I ask<\/i> you that, you don\u2019t\u2014 you don\u2019t\u2014\u00a0if I come up with<\/i> the person, you know it\u2019s all right to answer the question, right? If I ask the question? Tha\u2014 that\u2019s clear enough not to be confused? Anybody else<\/i> asks you, you will test here in a little bit to see how<\/i>. If they ask you about politics (coughs) or religion, say, we never judge people that way. Anybody wants to live cooperatively, is welcome to live here. You know. You understand what I\u2019m saying? (Pause) (Tape distortion) So they\u2019re all<\/i> friendly, our guests, ostensibly are all<\/i> friendly. Very praiseworthy. The author\u2019s very praiseworthy<\/i> in town. But they have little liberal kind of tendencies, even though he thinks we\u2019re the best group, and came down here because he thinks there\u2019s a profound conspiracy against us, like the days of Martin Luther King. And he is the one that\u2019s hiding that lady that I told you about. How many remember the lady? Who\u2019s a witness, or witness to the Martin Luther King murder<\/i>. And said, um, impossible. Impossible. He was five foot tall, he was peppery-salted hair, graying, in his fifties, or late\u2014\u00a0late fifties. Whereas Oswald [Jones is referring to James Earl Ray] was five foot eleven, light-complexion \u2014 she also said he was dark skin \u2014 the other drunk said he was a nigger, showing that he, you know, he had to have dark skin. In the average redneck mind, any Chicano or black or Indian, they only just say “nigger<\/i>“. That\u2019s just the way they are<\/i>. And he<\/i> said he was a nigger, and she said he was dark-skin. And they considered her a profound witness<\/i> up until she wouldn\u2019t go along<\/i> with them. She hadn\u2019t seen a picture. She said, this is not the man \u2014\u00a0when they wanted to sign the extradition order, which is the only way they can bring somebody back from another country. Fortunately, this country doesn\u2019t have any agreement. No matter what<\/i> crime we\u2019ve committed, this government doesn\u2019t have to send anybody, \u2018cause they don\u2019t have such an agreement with anybody<\/i>. Guyana makes no<\/i> such agreements like that. And not up till this part. Extradition. That means, if you\u2019ve committed a crime \u2014\u00a0like [Russell] Moton had in Philadelphia or something, and they want to dig up something\u2014\u00a0your past\u2014\u00a0they want to frame you, they can\u2019t bring you back. You see what I\u2019m saying? They can\u2019t bring\u2014 can\u2019t bring you to face it. But they could<\/i> in England, and so, she said, that\u2019s<\/i> not the man. Man I saw, as I told you, was five\u2014 five foot five, so forth and so on. I\u2019ve just given you a description. And they put her in the mental hospital, general hospital for weeks, put on her record, this woman\u2019s not to be relieved\u2014 released until all<\/i> the hearings revolving\u2014 or involving Martin Luther King\u2019s death<\/i> have been finished, and till the trials have been completed and appealed<\/i> against James Earl Ray. How long did she stay in the mental hospital?<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Murmured response<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Over. Nearly eleven. Then Mark Lane nearly got his ass busted<\/i>, and would\u2019ve had, hadn\u2019t been strong people coming around in his defense, for contempt of court citing, which he took her out from Memphis, where they considered her a feeble-minded and a men\u2014 ah, not a, not a feeble-minded\u2014 but a mentally-handicapped person. But she\u2019s so\u2014 nah, that\u2019s very strange, they ought to decide that before they, they\u2019d used her three or four weeks as a witness<\/i>. She wasn\u2019t in a men\u2014 mental hospital when they found<\/i> her. The only thing in the record that says she\u2019s mentally-ill, schizophrenic because she chooses<\/i> to believe that she was a witness to Martin Luther King\u2019s death. And they<\/i> said she was<\/i> a witness. And I\u2019m not giving the man that\u2019s coming, named Don Freed, I\u2019m not giving you Don\u2019s word, I\u2019m not giving you Mark Lane\u2019s word, I\u2019m giving the word of the press reporter from the\u2014 he was the correspondent for the Memphis Press Senator, white man who ended up being a judge and the lawyer in, in the state of Tennessee, and he told this shit just like it is. And he said it\u2019s a frame-up from the government on down. Now, uh, this youth, young socialist movement man, he wanted us to do all we could to get more security, he said we needed to get guns<\/i>, he said the CIA will come in here and try to kill<\/i> you. You\u2014 He kept talking (unintelligible) they\u2019ll try to kill Jim Jones. We said we had had, he said, well, why aren\u2019t you people doing more about<\/i> it. He said, you\u2019re not alert<\/i> enough. He said, look up. He said, I\u2019d look up, you can smile, look up at everybody<\/i> that comes in here. He had a lot of sense, young and a\u2014 white, a white yu, kind of a\u2014 what do you call it, the\u2014<\/p>\n

Unintelligible response from one man<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Guyana short. Uh, th\u2014 the shirt\u2014 white, what, what is it?<\/p>\n

Unintelligible response from one man<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Shirt jacket the same? Huh?<\/p>\n

Unintelligible response from one man<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Aubrey. So we need to be alert, and watch who comes and goes, and hears what gossip. He said, I\u2014 I can\u2019t con\u2014 conceive that you\u2019ve done this. It\u2019s fantastic. Even the most religious one said it was ah, said it was so beautiful. People should be grateful<\/i> for what they have here. She said she wished God\u2019s blessing and prayers, but she said people should be grateful for what they have in you and this program.<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Clapping<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>The guy from the ministry of energy called it a socialist what? Socialist utopia. I had to talk<\/i> to him a long time, it was important to get the understanding across to him, that\u2019s why the delay. But if they<\/i> can see that, how much more should we<\/i> see it? He said, if you have managed to get this movement here without some CIA agent in it, he said, I\u2019ll be mightily<\/i> surprised. He said it takes a person of genius, and he said, you have that. He said, if you been able to get somebody here that\u2019s not in the CIA, I\u2019ll be mightily surprised.<\/p>\n

Unintelligible response from one man<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>So, when you don\u2019t report what you hear\u2014 When you hear gossip, report it\u2014\u00a0when you hear it and don\u2019t report it, or you see somebody doing something strange or negative or violating rules and don\u2019t report it, you may be helping a murderer<\/i>. You may be helping someone that will later be a participant<\/i>. You\u2014 I\u2019m not saying\u2014 a lot of people do it, they\u2019re decent people<\/i>, they just don\u2019t follow rules. But they\u2019re going to have<\/i> to. If they don\u2019t<\/i>, you may be\u2014\u00a0that person will slip<\/i> up<\/i> in many areas, if he is an agent, there\u2019s such a person. They\u2019ll slip up. And that\u2019s why we should all<\/i> make a watchful hi\u2014 keep a watchful eye for any kind of barrier where people try to draw people to themselves, those who would t\u2014 try many romances? See what I\u2019m saying? Huh? Some little things you can tell, right? Having new buddies all the time? Changing buddies? Nosy? Asking you a lot of questions? I\u2019m going to tell you, I\u2019m sick<\/i> of it now, I\u2019ve told you the last time, don\u2019t ask Rheaviana, Patricia, Jones, Tommy Johnson, and all those others, don\u2019t ask them anymore about Venezuela. I\u2019m giving you full<\/i> warning. You know who you are. Don\u2019t ask them more goddamned questions about it. Don\u2019t ask them no<\/i> questions. \u2018Cause you make us all nervous\u2014 what we ought to do is turn you loose<\/i> on the border, and we wouldn\u2019t have no problem<\/i> with you. If you want to go to Venezuela, you ought to just make application tonight, and we will get you on the path headed for Venezuela\u2014 Now that\u2019s a\u2014 that\u2019s a pretty good deal. We even take you to the boat port and they\u2019ll uh, sally, sally you forth in a little canoe for the many miles\u2014 You have to go<\/i> several hours to get into Venezuela, but then you get\u2014 you, you want to do it, put your application in, when the time is, we\u2019ll let you go. \u2018Cause if you<\/i> get into Venezuela, I\u2019m confident, you ain\u2019t going to get back to USA alive.<\/p>\n

Unintelligible response<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>You won\u2019t get back to US alive. You think you can make it through there, don\u2019t you, some of you. Hmm? You\u2019re crazy bunch of mother-fuckers, if you do. Excuse me, we\u2019re not supposed to do that. (Pause) You saw that young man, our precious son, lost. Well, he knew<\/i> the jungle, cuts the trees every day. Couldn\u2019t follow my voice<\/i> even. All right, we\u2019ve got to move on here. What in the movie A Parallax View<\/i> gets the reporter interested in the assassination of the senator? (Pause) In The Parallax View<\/i>. What caused the uh, reporter to get interested in the assassination of the senator?<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>When he realized that all the witnesses to the\u2014 to the, um, assassination were getting killed off or\u2014 or something?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes? That\u2019s good\u2014\u00a0that\u2019s good. That\u2019s, that\u2019s certainly true. The witnesses are being killed off. A woman witness says she\u2019s afraid of her life, he is skeptical, but then she dies. Right, that\u2019s what made him get, uh\u2014 good. All right. Next. What is the Parallax Corporation? What kind of business is it engaged in?<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>(unintelligible few words\u2014 Sounds like “Test, test” as if she\u2019s testing the microphone) The way I saw it, I saw they was\u2014 they liked killing off people that were trying\u2014 you know, like were radicals<\/i> or something like that.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>That\u2019s right. You don\u2019t know exactly<\/i> what it is, it\u2019s just a\u2014 but it is a very powerful<\/i>, had loads of money, it was obviously killing off anyone that di\u2014 disagreed with the government\u2019s main line<\/i>. Even in the end, was willing to kill off one of their right wing, to make the reporter look guilty. It was in the business of killing, that\u2019s no question. Political leaders who are too independent, or liberal\u2014 certainly not any socialists<\/i> in the United States, so it was aimed at them. You pass. (Pause) How does the Parallax\u2014 How does the reporter get into the Parallax Corporation?<\/p>\n

2nd Woman: <\/b>He um\u2014 (Pause) He tries to find out what kind of personality is\u2014 you know, there\u2019s a certain type of personality with psychological defi\u2014 defi\u2014 deficiencies\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

2nd Woman: <\/b>That\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

2nd Woman: <\/b>They uh, compensate through this identification with this, you know\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>What\u2014 where do you think he really screwed up, probably? If they didn\u2019t know it from the beginning, where do you think he screwed up? You\u2014 you\u2019re not going to pass it, it\u2019s not required. I\u2019ll tell you. They\u2014 He screwed up when they took\u2014 flashed through those pictures, he could not possibly assimilate the emotions that he should have evoked by those pictures. And right there<\/i>, they had him. He could get a criminal<\/i> to do his test. He could do that. The written test. When they flew\u2014 threw the flash pictures at him, he, he couldn\u2019t fit the bill, unless he was the killer that was doing it. You understand what I\u2019m saying? She passed. Next. (Pause) Who else gets killed during the course of the movie, and why?<\/p>\n

3rd Woman: <\/b>I don\u2019t know. I didn\u2019t see it.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Didn\u2019t see it?<\/p>\n

3rd Woman: <\/b>When I was in the bakery, working when they had\u2014\u00a0when they showed it.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>You were what?<\/p>\n

3rd Woman: <\/b>I was working when they showed it.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Where?<\/p>\n

3rd Woman: <\/b>In the bakery.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>With clearance?<\/p>\n

3rd Woman: <\/b>(Pause) Yes, I guess it was.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I\u2019d like to know<\/i> about it. Parallax View<\/i>? I gave clearance for people to be someplace?<\/p>\n

Unintelligible response from one man<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Yes it has, and that\u2019s what gets<\/i> me about some of these people. You, you come up and say, I\u2014 I\u2014 I\u2014\u00a0I was\u2014 didn\u2019t see it, and I went through that beautiful movie, and you can imagine how much I don\u2019t want to go through it three times. I been through that beautiful movie, interpreting that son-of-a-bitch for three times, that means that last, last night, I didn\u2019t have a chance<\/i>, though, some of the other people took time to see<\/i> it. If you\u2019da done it, we wouldn\u2019t had that\u2014 had a required time to do it. So when I say I want<\/i> something, why don\u2019t you get your ass there the first night, huh? I don\u2019t know about this. I don\u2019t know about this. What I uh\u2014 There should be a supervisor to speak about this subject. (Pause) And this, people didn\u2019t see Parallax View<\/i>? (Peevish) What the hell\u2019s going on? (Pause) (Unintelligible word). Wh\u2014\u00a0wh\u2014\u00a0Where are Ruby Carroll, Lavana James, (Unintelligible name \u2014 probably “Loretta Chavis”), Teri Smart, (unintelligible first name\u2014 sounds like “Leta”) Wilson, Carl (unintelligible last name\u2014 sounds like “Noon”) Georgianne Brady, Al Tschetter, Don Jackson, Jim Morrell [better known as Jim Bogue], Lorelle, Marie Rankin [also known as Marie Lawrence], Roosevelt Turner, Greg Watkins, (stumbles over words), Oh God. Loretta Cordell, Gertrude Nailor, Edith Delaney, Edie\u2014 Eddie Washington, Wanda Swinney, Eddie Stennis\u2014 Eddie Dennis, Darlene Ramey, Christine Young, Andrew (?) Young, Marshall Farris, Mary Ann Casanova, George Johnson, Dianne Casanova, Shabaka (?) Baker, Mom Dean, Hyacinth Thrash\u2014\u00a0Mom Dean\u2019s uh, she\u2019s ill \u2014\u00a0Vincent Lopez, Becky Flowers, Albert Touchette, Emmett Griffith Jr., Linda Arterberry, Chuckie Henderson, Diana Lundquist, Pat Grunnett, Selika Bordenave, Sandra Evans, Julius Evans, Vi\u2014 Viola Forks, Eva Pugh, uh, Eloise Sneed \u2014\u00a0Eva\u2019s ill \u2014 Alma Thomas, Clara Johnson, (unintelligible name \u2014 “Guidry”?), Rosa Keaton, Steve Addison, Farene Douglas, Kay Rosas, Jewell Wilson, Willie Reed, Emma Genett\u2014 Emma K\u2014 Kennedy, Ophelia Rogers, Na\u2014 Nancy Clay, Jesus Christ Almighty.<\/p>\n

(tape cuts off for unknown duration)<\/p>\n

Young person: <\/b>They\u2014 they was tortured to death and\u2014 by some mercenaries, be\u2014 and be\u2014\u00a0and they didn\u2019t tell um, where their parent\u2019s military unit was.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> That\u2019s right. Excellent. Two. What does the timing of the lifting the arms embargo on Rhodesia, the white racist regime of Ian Smith, show about the USA? (Pause) What does the timing of the lifting of the arms embargo \u2014 that means the stopping of shipment of arms, and the stopping of shipping money\u2014 USA had acted<\/i> like they weren\u2019t shipping it. However, we find out today that uh, Johannesburg Star<\/i> says that US had shipped eleven and a half million dollars<\/i> through one of six uh, thousand, several of the 6000 corporations that have interest<\/i> in Rhodesia. That your<\/i> tax dollars have shifted<\/i> through the CIA<\/i> \u2014 \u2018cause there\u2019s nobody looks overseas, the CIA. Nobody does it. President<\/i> don\u2019t even know what the CIA is doing. Nobody can. They\u2019re responsible for only some things to the Se\u2014\u00a0head of the Senate Armed Services Committee, and the Armed Services Committee. Who is that Senator in charge<\/i>? You all<\/i> ought to know that uh, like your beat of your heart.<\/p>\n

Several replies.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Senator [John] Stennis. From Mississippi. Why<\/i> should you know it? \u2018Cause that\u2019s where all our shit started. That\u2019s where all<\/i> of our shit started. We have to face that. I was trying<\/i> to do what was right. That\u2019s where our shit<\/i> started. How do I know it? \u2018Cause four days later, Deanna Mertle, and [private investigator Joe] Mazor, that criminal, and all the others, Grace [Stoen], you name them, Jim Cobb, the whole bunch of them, went and had money to hire a public relations firm by what name?<\/p>\n

Several unintelligible replies<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>What? (Pause) It was not<\/i> Eureka Research Associates. (Controlled patience) Goddamnit, I\u2019ve said that was later<\/i>, dear. That\u2019s when we\u2019ve caught that\u2014 I ain\u2019t gonna say how we got that \u2014 [Tim] Stoen was trying to do an aerial map study of this. They may be a CIA front, Eureka Research, undoubtedly. But he was making an aerial surveillance on how to attack with mercenaries<\/i>. \u2018Cause we\u2014\u00a0Hmm?<\/p>\n

Unintelligible response from one man<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>That\u2019s been a long time ago, so don\u2019t get worried, child. Some of you, (unintelligible, as Jim affects scared tone) with mercenaries. Anybody that does that, you ought to report them, when I don\u2019t see it. What the hell you care about mercenaries, if you\u2019re a socialist. What the hell you\u2019re worried about your ass. It\u2019s rotten, slow by slow, anyway.<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Laughter.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Shrinking up, too. (Pause) Okay, now, can you tell me\u2014 (To self) Now how I\u2019d get the hell\u2014 did I get on that? Where in the hell am I\u2014 how in the hell I get on that?<\/p>\n

Unintelligible responses<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(Remembers) Oh, you need to know Senator Stennis, because what did he do? He violated<\/i> every law of the goddamn book. He had two<\/i> Air Force officers working for him<\/i>, they\u2019re supposed to be on duty at Kessler Air Force Base, they\u2019re supposed to be involved in Administration. And Logistics. And they\u2019re out<\/i> there with a black satchel \u2014 Penny [Kerns] caught them. Some of you jump on her ass, but she<\/i> chased their ass for blocks and got the driver\u2019s license. Right?<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>You know<\/i> Penny\u2019d be the one to do<\/i> that. And\u2014 said, what you doing in there? One of them carrying a Bible. It wasn\u2019t<\/i>\u2014 I know this. It was obviously not to spy<\/i> on Unita Bay\u2014 Blackwell Wright, the black mayor of Fayetteville [Mayersville]. She was there praising China, Communist China. You<\/i> remember the day.<\/p>\n

Unintelligible responses<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Obviously<\/i> they weren\u2019t trying to spy\u2014\u00a0\u2019cause we know you can get phone taps. Donny and I one night, I know we went down, cut up one under the goddamn floor, right in our own church. Going to my room, went to the public address system, went\u2014 we cut the sonofabitch, coming from the church next door, the suckers next door, the church right there, we\u2014 we found out undoubtedly<\/i> was involved in the conspiracy against us. Bunch of goddamned Baptists, freakouts. But what<\/i> were they doing there? I\u2019ll bet you\u2014 if I had my bet, they had explosions<\/i> in there to blow us all to hell. That\u2019s what I\u2019ll bet<\/i> you they had. Satchel that big? That thick? You don\u2019t think you can\u2019t blow\u2014 hell, they coulda blowed that church with the modern weapons they have, blowed that fuckin\u2019 church to smithereens, taken care of her, and probably that was the trouble<\/i>. They wanted to get us and<\/i> her. You say, how do you know? I\u2019m not guessing<\/i> some of you people don\u2019t know any shit, and you don\u2019t want to know. I know<\/i>, because we went to the District Attorney [Joseph Freitas], to get<\/i> the goddamned license number checked, and he hum, hawed and griped all the way with\u2014 he did it, but we finally got it. And it led us to a U-rental and\u2014 I saw Sara [Tropp]\u2014 yeah, Sara was over there, she one of them\u2014 they went over there to<\/i> that goddamn place, and that was a sonofabitch, getting the information out of them, to\u2014 we got the U-rental, we got the license number, but now who rented it? So after many things, which I\u2019m not going to tell you, about all of it, we got the information<\/i>. And on it was two goddamn U.S. Air Force officers. So what in the hell do they<\/i> want in California? They were from Kessler Air Force Base \u2014 I don\u2019t know where it\u2019s outside of, I don\u2019t know enough about that\u2014\u00a0Bi\u2014 Bilock\u2014 Biloxi, Mississippi. And\u2014 what\u2014 then I\u2014 oh, I thought, Mississippi, and this mayor\u2019s<\/i> here, she\u2019s<\/i> from Mississippi. I thought, whoa, we\u2019re onto some shit<\/i> now. Black mayor. So I\u2014 I uh\u2014 I thought I smelled a rat then, that they were trying to kill us. So we go through all kinds of shit, we had the dope, and we got somebody working on the other side, and they proved<\/i> that they were working with Senator Stennis, \u2018cause the little girl of one of them talked like a magpie, and the wife of another one talked like a magpie, and one of their cooks<\/i> was black<\/i>, and she talked just\u2014 she don\u2019t like \u2018em anyway. She told us everything we wanted to know. And they worshipped<\/i> Senator Stennis. You ought to all have this in your brains. They worshipped<\/i> him. It reminded me of, um\u2014 I don\u2019t know when I\u2019ve even seen anything like this. You think people worship me. (Amazed tone) Oh my God. Senator Stennis is gonna save America. Senator Stennis is getting rid of these black people. Senator Stennis\u2014 I mean some heaa-a-a-avy shit. Senator Stennis is gonna keep this country strong against communism. Senator Stennis, Senator Stennis, Senator Stennis, we love Senator Stennis. (Shouts question) How does the goddamn Senir\u2014 Senator interfere with the Air Force? The Air Force isn\u2019t working for the Congress of the United States. He had no power to call them to do a damn<\/i> thing. But they were doing it. And they got the money from him some way to do it. The Air Force\u2014 we got the congressman to write\u2014 and they\u2019re all chickenshit. I remember\u2014 I haven\u2019t got no use for ol\u2019 [U.S. Rep. Ron] Dellums [D-California], he wouldn\u2019t even write. He was scared. He\u2019s chickenshit. He wouldn\u2019t write. We got uh, we got two<\/i> congressmen to write, and then one from New York, who was later charged with\u2014 Oh God, I feel bad about him, I wish we could help him. What was the name of that man?<\/p>\n

Unintelligible responses<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>We gotta find him. We should offer our assistance to him. Uh, they\u2014 they got his ass, probably for a number of things. What was the man\u2019s name? Does anybody remember the name, the guy that got charged with (struggles for words) approaching homosexually\u2014 boys on open street.<\/p>\n

Unintelligible responses<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Aw, [U.S. Rep. Charles] Diggs, no no, Diggs is 37 fe\u2014 felony. He\u2019s a white<\/i> man.<\/p>\n

Unintelligible responses<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Miller. Miller. Miller. We gotta find out, we gotta offer some assistance<\/i> to that man, \u2018cause he wrote, and he said I\u2019m not satisfied with your answers \u2014 the U.S. Air Force was sending back the goddamndest letters every time \u2014 and Senator Stennis, nor<\/i> the goddamn president would answer. (Pause) Nobody<\/i>. And<\/i> the Congress finally let\u2014 guy who sold out too, to some degree, there\u2019s two brothers of us, he said, there\u2019s nothing more I can do. (Pause) [U.S. Reps. John anmd Phil] Burton. Said there\u2019s not a thing I can do. I went to the editor of the Chronicle<\/i>, and he says (gusts out words) I\u2014 I can\u2019t touch that. He said, you gone too far now, Jim Jones. He said, there\u2019re some things you just can\u2019t get involved with, and then he gives some bullshit \u2014 two people don\u2019t want\u2014 believe in conspiracies anymore. I know my kind of bullshit. He said I was a victim of a conspiracy, I wasn\u2019t even asking him about me, I wanted to know what the fuck<\/i> they were doing there about that black woman\u2014 I wonder why I said that. (Pause) Now I remember that. Next words out of his mouth was, I wouldn\u2019t even ask<\/i> about the conspiracy on the occasion, what he said, wh\u2014 you<\/i> are the vic\u2014 you<\/i> are, you<\/i> are victim of conspiracy. He said, I know<\/i> you\u2019ve got a conspiracy locally, and I don\u2019t know how much further it goes. He\u2019d had to get it through that sonofabitch [New West<\/i> writer Marshall] Kilduff that wrote. So I don\u2019t doubt that. But, uh, he\u2014 he, he wouldn\u2019t touch it. Nobody would touch it. Then\u2014 in my<\/i> timing, if my timing\u2019s right<\/i>, four days later, they hire a goddamn public relations firm. Now you think that\u2019s a coincidence? (Pause) I<\/i> don\u2019t think so. I<\/i> don\u2019t think it\u2019s coincidence. Too many goddamn operations show to me that somebody<\/i> knows somebody, and got<\/i> lots of money. And Senator Stennis is on the in with some pretty damn rich people.<\/p>\n

Unintelligible responses<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>They drove to San Francisco, only there for two<\/i> days. They meant to do something, but (stumbles over words) you don\u2019t have to go through that trouble. They coulda walked in our meeting<\/i>. Shit, they coulda just opened their collar. We let white folk in. Their very expertise \u2014 their good<\/i> expertise \u2014 CIA can plan any<\/i> kind of a game. They coulda walked right to the goddamn meeting, passed through our greeters, and said the right answers, and our greeters would set them up on the front row.<\/p>\n

One woman: <\/b>Right.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Don\u2019t tell me. I\u2019ve had it done.<\/p>\n

Several voices: <\/b>Right.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Later se\u2014 find out I was talking to a m\u2014\u00a0a member of the press, (unintelligible word) get by the question. So, uh\u2014 why were they there two days? It\u2019s obvious<\/i> there only one reason: to murder her. Her\u2014 and us. How are you going to murder her between two church walls? Put bombs in there and murder everybody that\u2019s in there. Hmm?<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Now do you all know that conspiracy theory? That it goes on from Mazor, who\u2019s a private detective, and [California] Governor [Jerry] Brown gives him a license and won\u2019t revoke it \u2014 it\u2019s against the law for somebody who\u2019s been in prison for a felony to have a license as a detective, and Governor Brown says, there\u2019s nothing I can do about it. You remember all that? Mazor. Keep it in your brain. Ought to make you feel important. That\u2019s why this young so\u2014 we gotta get this shit<\/i> outta here, that\u2019s author\u2019s going to try to do that for us. He left the assassination hearings in Washington, which he thinks they\u2019ll be a whitewash anyway, the Select Committee on Assassinations, just like I\u2019ve been saying, he is a part<\/i> of that. He wrote Rush To Judgment, Executive Action<\/i>. How many heard what I said about Executive Action<\/i> (stumbles over words) tonight? (Pause) (Sighs) Oh, shit. (Unintelligible name\u2014 Dawn?) is it on the blackboard? We\u2019ll have to read that sometime tomorrow. Early. Hear? Or tonight, before you go on. Executive Action<\/i>, it\u2019s on tape, too, they\u2019ll play it, but a lot of times, Po\u2014 uh, Teresa [Buford] can get it capsulized. (Stumbles for words) I don\u2019t know. Who is\u2014 Teresa does all that on the board? 9Pause) I don\u2019t keep\u2014 want naming one name, when there\u2019re four or five involved, if there are. Who\u2014 who\u2014 who is this?<\/p>\n

Unintelligible reply<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>She do it all?<\/p>\n

Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, by God, uh, I\u2019ll tell you, if you\u2014\u00a0some of the rest of you ought to get that chalk moving, \u2018cause that\u2019s some sonofabitching job<\/i>, to cover all them chalkboards, one right after another, listening to the meeting, getting that shit down. Very few mistakes that I find<\/i>. When I do, I\u2014 I\u2019ll tell it publicly. \u2018Cause I know I can deal<\/i> with it that way, \u2018cause she doesn\u2019t got her ego up\u2014 caught up in it. And I haven\u2019t caught an error in I don\u2019t remember how long. I ma\u2014 I haven\u2019t caught any error. Have you seen any error? Beautiful how they get that thing down. Also, um, Bea Orsot had some good news questions and she sent in for (unintelligible word), and she didn\u2019t know she sent in for (same word), that\u2019s where we\u2019re going to end up. Because she got them all, in paragraph, she got it down<\/i>. She got a substantive answer out of everything I said, and covered the news and\u2014 oh shit, if you want to do<\/i> it, and get somebody to help you like that, they covered in six p\u2014 typewritten pages, I think she did. Long, they were big long things like this. But she covered \u2018em. Those<\/i> people are invaluable<\/i> to us, because I do not believe I\u2019m going to penetrate the sound barrier here. (Short laugh) I think I\u2019m never going to penetrate it with some people. You know what I mean? They just don\u2019t<\/i> want to hear it, by God, and some a\u2014 do, and that\u2019s why I give it to them, because there\u2019s about three or four dozen that have asked me to do it. Repeatedly, say “Please,” and they want it this time or that time, but I can\u2019t meet all of you, because half<\/i> of you want it at night and half<\/i> of you want it in the morning. So if you get it every other morning, you understand why the hell you\u2019re getting<\/i> it that way. What else can I do? Hmm?<\/p>\n

Unintelligible responses<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Okay, okay okay. So, Executive Action<\/i>, and he wrote Rush To Judgment<\/i>, along with Mark Lane, and Parallax View<\/i>. Executive Action<\/i> deals with the exact statistics, the exact statistics I just gave you. (Aside) I can\u2019t hold that motherfucker. Just get it where I don\u2019t\u2014well, no, I don\u2019t want a pillow under it now, not now, not now, I\u2019ll just have to do without it, \u2018cause I\u2014\u00a0it\u2019s too distracting to me. So find some way they can hold the sonofabitch to my chest, I\u2019ll put the heat there, but I cannot do everything. And (unintelligible name) Bea the other night, and then Irra [Johnson] thought of it, and put that p\u2014 pillow under there. And there\u2019s something that bothers me, until you get your leader replaced, some of you people don\u2019t think further than your damn nose about what he needs. And I\u2019m not talking about (unintelligible name), he\u2019s a very good worker here. But today, I\u2014\u00a0I\u2019d walked till hell<\/i> froze over before any of you\u2019d give me water. And my vocal cords are so sore<\/i>\u2014 I asked for water twice<\/i> before I got water. I should not have to ask for water.<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>The goddamn water. And then, a black woman go get it. I said don\u2019t you give me no goddamn water. I don\u2019t want no black \u2014 Shanda James going, I said, get that water out of her hand. You white people on that committee ought to have enough sense to grab that shit without me telling you that. What the hell do you think they\u2019da thought of me if a black young woman would hold my water, and I take the damn water and drink. Hmm?<\/p>\n

Unintelligible responses<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>You gotta watch appearances if you\u2019re a socialist.<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>They\u2019d think uh\u2014 they\u2019d think that she was in a server\u2014 servile, some servient, servant role<\/i>. White people should do that for me. I shouldn\u2019t have to tell them, but the goddamn water\u2014 I was dried out<\/i>, and believe me, that\u2019s one thing bothers me about this whole fuckin\u2019 tour. I don\u2019t\u2014 you guys are going to have to get together, because I don\u2019t see those newsmen going through here without me present. And it\u2019s not presumption<\/i>. It\u2019s just that I catch little things. Then when you\u2019re there, you can catch little things for me. But I catch shit. Every one of you\u2014 I ain\u2019t going to get into it tonight, \u2018cause we aren\u2019t going to have that uh, long of an (unintelligible word) about it, but I\u2014 I catch shit that you people should think about. You should create your mind to think about certain things, the things you want to get across. Why they wanted Diane to sing. Wasn\u2019t because she is preferred as the best singer. I told what racists did to her face. I told how she preferred making diesel in generators, made a generator with her hands, and preferred that over her musical career. You understand? And I told them about Mar\u2014 Marthea [Hicks], told about Julius Evans, didn\u2019t get as much chance, because\u2014 one thing, do remember, folks, when I am trying to talk, for Christ\u2019s sakes, don\u2019t have somebody up doing (makes silly singing noises). I can\u2019t carry it on. You\u2019re gonna have to learn to tone that shit down, because my voice\u2014\u00a0I just can\u2019t\u2014 I said, I cannot counteract it. I don\u2019t know what happens to my messengers<\/i>. I set them up, I say, get it stopped. Get it stopped. Two<\/i> times they come up, and it\u2019s not<\/i> stopped, and I see a singer<\/i> in my face, when I\u2019m asking\u2014 what\u2019s more important, they see your talent in one<\/i> show. It\u2019s important<\/i> that I or somebody educate these people to where we are. Because this one man was so relieved when he heard my views, he<\/i> thought we were a bunch of CIA<\/i> people. That\u2019s obviously what was in his goddamn head, till I opened up all the conspiracy against black leaders and \u2014 something that you people don\u2019t know to this day \u2014 he grasped it, he picked it up, he heard it. And now he\u2014 when he left here from being un<\/i>friendly, and I mean he was unfriendly to me. And from being unfriendly, he walked with me all the way down to the point, he said, look, I want to know about if they\u2019re going to take care of your internal security. (Stumbles for words) He coulda been a spy doing that, but he wasn\u2019t<\/i>. I said, yes, it\u2019d been taken care of, \u2018cause they are licensing personal bodyguards with a very, very heavy piece of equipment. But you don\u2019t need to talk about that. The government\u2019s<\/i> doing that for us. We don\u2019t have weapons \u2014 and we don\u2019t<\/i> have, right now, we don\u2019t have, at all. Right?<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>We believe in nonviolence. Right?<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>And the thing\u2014 I can\u2019t remember it all. I wanted to point out about uh, the principal, the black principal, and the white principal. I got to know more of her che\u2014\u00a0achievements, your specialities, I said, what\u2019ve you done, Clara, I want\u2014\u00a0so Clara showed me something that\u2019s very beautiful. So I\u2019ve know what uh, uh, Comrade [Tom] Grubbs does<\/i>, but not all<\/i> of it. You ought to have it out in typewritten form for me, so I can rehearse it just before I get in there. And if somebody \u2014 if I can\u2019t \u2014 had best<\/i> rehearse it, that certain things get through. How they want\u2014 marvelous way we use all of our scrap material. You don\u2019t think of it, though. You describe the carriage, somebody described the carriage, and said we made this, uh, we made it right here. Very little we imported. We didn\u2019t import shit<\/i>. We didn\u2019t import shit to make that carriage, they made it out of scraps<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>And that should be your position<\/i>. You should think<\/i> what the hell you\u2019re saying. When you go in the tool-and-dye shop, uh, you\u2014 you need to think, you need to think that, the important thing to get across is black young men and women could never do that, and we have black young women and men\u2014 they never could break the unions in United States. You never could get in tool-and-dye. You never could get an electrical mastery license. You never could get the plumbing master\u2019s license. They never had a chance. And you need to tell them about the man \u2014\u00a0they may have heard a little bit about healing, you need\u2014\u00a0you don\u2019t have to say a word about healing. Just mention the older white man who felt rejected by his family, and uh, had nothing to live for \u2014 you follow what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>And given three weeks to live, by the doctor? And when he got turned on to these young people, he\u2019s in perfect health and carries on a schedule that makes some young people look sick? Those are messages. You need to get a message going around each one. Etta Thompson. It\u2019s not enough to just say Etta Thompson. She\u2019s a senior. She worked (unintelligible, followed by cough). She was in the movement<\/i> for struggle. She picketed<\/i>. And you can\u2019t go as far as you want to say, so I just use Martin Lee\u2014 Luther King to symbolize what she protests about, and how she picketed. Hear me now, hear me, goddamnit. Eh, some of you need to get this down, we need to profile<\/i> what the hell needs to be said in every department. When you see an eyesore, you got to having a reason. “No, that just happened.” You know what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Yes.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I don\u2019t mean that way. There\u2019s a way\u2014\u00a0you gotta let your mind deal with every situation. And those who are dealing with the PNC, they\u2019re very interested, do we follow the government\u2019s course on political indoctrination? And we do<\/i>. Very well, there. We can\u2014 if we can read<\/i> and write<\/i>, when we get through, we\u2014 we\u2019ll be good on politics. (Short laugh) You hear what I\u2019m saying.<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Yes.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>You need to point that out<\/i>. You need to point out that a senior, or every child here, but for Christ\u2019s sake, you hear party, children. When I say party, or someone comes up to you and says, what\u2019s our party \u2014\u00a0wake up, Tyrone, quit playing \u2014 I mean, P-N-C. Now you ought to all know that<\/i> like you know your back of your hand and the front of your hand. People\u2019s National Congress. That\u2019s where we won one woman that was very reserved. She was on the ruling party board of uh, what they call\u2014 oh shit, what did she call it? Indoc\u2014\u00a0uh, no.<\/p>\n

Man in crowd talks too softly.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Yeah, I wish I\u2019d remember what she said, was a word I\u2019d never heard before. “Doctrinaire” was in it. (Pause) Which I didn\u2019t\u2014 “Doctrinaire” means “dogmatism<\/i>,” doesn\u2019t it? It means you\u2019re dogmatic about something. (Pause) Well, I called it\u2014 I said, any senior. Get me a senior. And fortunately<\/i>, one was sitting there \u2014\u00a0I give thanks to whoever the young person was, \u2018cause if I\u2019da got \u2014\u00a0one of them was sittin\u2019 right at the edge of that, uh, pavilion \u2014 oh, I said, oh Christ, don\u2019t send me her. Don\u2019t. Socialism, don\u2019t let this be. Don\u2019t let them pick her. And they went by<\/i> her. They must have, because they started to look at\u2014 take her up, she was settin\u2019 on her big fat ass, and she never know shit from Shinola, she don\u2019t know what\u2019s going on here, she\u2019s brilliant, and she\u2019s a pretty woman, and she wears long gowns down to her toes\u2014 Well, now.<\/p>\n

Isolated laughter.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>But she don\u2019t know anything<\/i>. She don\u2019t know<\/i> anything. So I said\u2014\u00a0they come in with Jane. I said, Jane, what about the party? Well, what party? Who?<\/p>\n

Isolated laughter.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(Laughing) Whose party? Ha! I said, our<\/i> party, Jane. Hahaha. Our party. She was sweet, though. She was sweet. I said, you\u2019ll get it, Jane. You know. Our party. Huh. So she come up. People\u2019s National Congress, she said it.<\/p>\n

Woman\u2019s voice too quiet.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Yeah, it\u2019s Vanguard. Well, she<\/i> said the Vanguard. She come back at you and said, what\u2019s the von\u2014 Vanguard. (Clicks tongue) She\u2014 When she means that, that\u2019s Guyanese for, which is really practicing socialism in\u2014 in this, in this country, and you would have to say, the People\u2019s National Congress. Not the PPP. \u2018Cause often the PNC will not knock the opposition, but they will call the Vanguard<\/i>. You remember that? What\u2019s the vanguard mean?<\/p>\n

Responses unintelligible<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>On the lead. Taking the leadership. So it\u2019s a black people (stumbles over words) party, for the most people. People\u2019s National Congress. She didn\u2019t say a word against the People\u2019s Progressive Party. You<\/i> shouldn\u2019t be knocking them either. But you gotta know your<\/i> party. You know what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Wouldn\u2019t hurt if someone asked you, why you\u2019re PNC, say something like, I don\u2019t like the PPP\u2019s policy of apanjhat<\/i>. Isn\u2019t that a way to say it, or it is wrong?<\/p>\n

Responses unintelligible<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Apanjhat. You can\u2019t remember the word, apanjhat<\/i>, vote your own kind. Remember that?<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(under voice) They might try it. Thank you. (Normal tone) Apanjhat. Apanjhat. Let\u2019s try it. Apanjhat. Apanjhat. Apanjhat. Apanjhat. Apanjhat. Now the way it sounds, to me, is the way I have to go with words. I don\u2019t know what you do. A-p-a-n, jhat, j-h-a-t. That\u2019s why I\u2019d come out with uh\u2014 my\u2014 me<\/i>\u2014\u00a0I have to get things by sound. And I never seen the damn meaning of words, so I can\u2019t remember them anyway. Anybody got it, uh, any East Indian, it would help<\/i> us. But if somebody asked me to spell, I couldn\u2019t spell it for shit. I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n

Responses unintelligible<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, it\u2019s apanjhat<\/i>. That\u2019s the mess\u2014 that\u2019s the meaning, and whatever the hell we got there, that\u2019s the phrase, and then, then, in the Hindi, it means, it means, vote your own kind. We know what the fuck it means. We just don\u2019t know how to spell it, huh?<\/p>\n

Responses unintelligible<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I did? Well, my Christ, that\u2019s the first time I ever heard English coincided with way it ought<\/i> to be. Don\u2019t usually work that way for me. Is this, is that spelled right?<\/p>\n

Response unintelligible<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>That was just purely happenstance. A-p-a-n, apanjhat, j-, oh gosh, I can\u2019t do it again, j-h-a-t. J-h-a-t, like “hat<\/i>” on the end. Maybe you better write it down, folks. Apanjhat. Apanjhat. Ah\u2014 is it “apan” or “apon”?<\/p>\n

Response unintelligible<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>That\u2019s what I want to know. Is the emphasis on the “a”? Apanjhat?<\/p>\n

Response unintelligible<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>“Pon.” Well, then, I wouldna spelled it the way I did. “Apan,” I\u2019da spelled it, p-a, p-a-a, uh, p-a-h-a-n. Way I woulda done it. (Short laugh) (unintelligible). You know, I\u2019m just talking about\u2014 I\u2019m not talkin\u2019 \u2018bout correct. She said I happened to spell it correctly, that just happened, \u2018cause I\u2019ve never read it. A-p-a-n-j-h-a-t. Apanjhat. Vote your own kind. Vote your own kind. That\u2019s what [Janet Rosenberg Jagan] the white wife of Dr. [Cheddi] Jagan of the opposition \u2014 what\u2019s the up\u2014 opposition?<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> PPP.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>PPP. And if they ask you the Vanguard\u2014<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> PNC.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Or the avant garde? They\u2019ll often say it that way. Avant garde. Is that French? I don\u2019t know French.<\/p>\n

Response unintelligible<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Avanchi garde. Avanche. Avanti. I don\u2019t know what garde is in Portuguese. I\u2014 I\u2019ve forgotten. But anyway, avant garde is French, and it means, the people that\u2019re in the front\u2014 leading. Leading socialism the best. You hear what I\u2019m saying? What is that party? (Claps along with initials) The P-N-C. You get struck in that some way, I would tell \u2018em\u2014\u00a0well, say, what uh, don\u2019t you like about the PPP? Well, what I don\u2019t<\/i> like is when they appealed \u2014 from what I\u2019ve studied of the history of both sides, they have\u2014 they appealed<\/i> to race on one occasion. By apanjhat.<\/i> Telling East Indians to vote their own kind. That\u2019s a terribly<\/i> backwards thing for a Marxist to do. Why even human genesis\u2014 geneticists know that we\u2019re all<\/i> one kind. Right?<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>We\u2019re all the human species. Homeo Sapiens. We\u2019re all human beings. And vote<\/i> your own kind is a backward, primitive thing. I don\u2019t know how Jagan could have ever come to allowing his Marxism to tolerate to stoop to that level, the end justifies the means, by appealing to racism<\/i>. There\u2019s<\/i> where you know the end has been corrupted. The just means\u2014 The end justifies the means is corrupted. Right? When it violazes\u2014\u00a0violates any<\/i> human ethical principle, that any basic decency would know<\/i>, that you know that somebody\u2019s using that end to justify their own, their means, whether to justify their own end. Do you understand?<\/p>\n

Response unintelligible<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Some of you don\u2019t know how to lie when it\u2019s saving your ass. But you\u2019d never lie if somebody came to your door and asked you where somebody was here, you\u2019d talk like a goddamn crow.<\/p>\n

Response unintelligible<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>And you can\u2014 you can tell all kinds of lies, though, about anything else. Stand up here. I didn\u2019t do it. I never took that book. I\u2019d\u2014 I wa\u2014\u00a0I was at work. Got 15 (unintelligible). I was\u2014 I did\u2014\u00a0I wasn\u2019t late. Stand here and look at us, right in the teeth, and do it. (Pause) Bad business. You better\u2014 I\u2019m telling you better learn to report everything you hear. \u2018Cause you can tear us up. You better learn to quit lying, \u2018cause you drain the movement of strength. The CIA is around anywhere. They\u2019d like that done. So you watch<\/i> those that are particularly violating every rule. Hmm? (Pause) Right?<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Watch<\/i> the looks on people\u2019s faces. (Pause) Study<\/i> them. Review<\/i> them. (Pause) That\u2019s why we just all have to work on smiling. I know that\u2019ll make some people smile now.<\/p>\n

Response unintelligible<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>\u2018Cause you never smile. You know\u2014 and then you don\u2019t have to go around with a weird smile, you just, just speak<\/i>. “Hello.” Think of\u2014 show yourself friendly. (Pause) Okay, I\u2019ve got to get on with this. Hell. I\u2019m\u2014 Excuse me. What did NBC say about women in the Navy? I just asked you something else.<\/p>\n

Response unintelligible<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Okay. What in the movie\u2014 Oh shit. (Pause) I\u2019m worse than (Pause) someone that had so many beans, they didn\u2019t know to do. So many kids, they wanted something. I don\u2019t know. (Pause) Well, it may be page two on your<\/i> books, but it ain\u2019t page two on my<\/i> book. It ain\u2019t so. It is not so. It is not<\/i> so, but I remember what it was. Six Rhodesians and uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Response unintelligible<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, where in the hell was the next question, then?<\/p>\n

Response unintelligible<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Oh, yes, yes. You\u2019re right.<\/p>\n

Response unintelligible<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>No, it won\u2019t be any of that, it\u2019ll be something about the goddamn Rhodesians, that I cannot find.<\/p>\n

Response unintelligible<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>No, no, didn\u2019t\u2014 I jumped out of that ca\u2014 category. I jumped out of it, because some of those people missed it in the bakery. I jumped out of Parallax View<\/i>, \u2018cause I thought I might flunk \u2018em all<\/i>. I don\u2019t set up here, to (unintelligible word) anything but time. You understand? So I jumped out of Parallax View<\/i>. I know<\/i> I jumped out of Parallax View<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Response unintelligible<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, what is worrying me is\u2014 here, I finally, I finally found it. What does the timing of the, of the lifting of the arms embargo and aid to Rhodesia \u2014 financially, even though it\u2019s still being given, it was given all along, as was brought to light in the press today, by the Johannesburg Star<\/i>. They closed them down that night, too. For printing it. What does the timing of the lifting of the arms embargo that was voted on by Congress \u2014\u00a0that means, House of Representatives and Senate in USA \u2014\u00a0what does it show? What does the timing\u2014 What does it\u2014 What does it show? Here, the Ian Smith government is\u2014\u00a0you<\/i> know what\u2019s happening to it. You know the Zimbabwean Patriotic Front, you know what their successes are, you know what\u2014 it\u2019s obvious who\u2019s on the right side of issues. What does it show? (Pause) What does the timing of the lifting of the arms embargo on Rhodesia show about the United States? What does it really show about USA? (Pause) You don\u2019t understand what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Young woman: <\/b>No, Dad.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, will someone help her, because I\u2019m not, uh\u2014\u00a0it\u2019s quite possible (stumbles over words)<\/p>\n

Young woman: <\/b>(Unintelligible) The United States (unintelligible) using to send arms to Rhodesia now, when the blacks\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Don\u2019t get nervous up here. What the hell\u2019s (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Young woman: <\/b>Now they are but (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>You understand that?<\/p>\n

Response unintelligible<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>What does that show about the character<\/i>, the nature of the United States? (Pause) You know who\u2014 you knew who runs Rho\u2014 Rhodesia?<\/p>\n

Young woman: <\/b>Yes.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Who is it?<\/p>\n

Young woman: <\/b>Ian Smith.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>He\u2019s white, isn\u2019t he?<\/p>\n

Young woman: <\/b>Yes, Dad.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Right. He\u2019s been an illegal government for ten years. Illegal<\/i>, because there\u2019s only \u2014\u00a0Uh, Comrade Grubbs will have to help me here \u2014 one out of\u2014<\/p>\n

Grubbs: <\/b>Twenty.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>\u2014twenty that are white. One out of twenty that are white. The rest of them are black. Nineteen to one. A white man\u2019s leading the government has no blacks involved with him. Only now two<\/i>. Did have three<\/i> Uncle Toms. The Bishop Misuela (?) can\u2019t even stand it now, the head of the Methodist Church<\/i>. What does that show when the government of the United States, when the Zimbabwean Patriotic Front is liberating people right and left, and withstood all the military might of the USA, 21,000 mercenaries hired to b\u2014 kill them, by the USA and England, and<\/i> (Pause) 16,000 more<\/i>, we learned today from Union of South Africa, and that\u2019s what he has to do to maintain\u2014 only one little place he\u2019s got<\/i> is Salisbury, and he can hardly keep hold of that<\/i>. They\u2019re in\u2014 inside and outside the streets every day, fighting, right in the capital, close to his headquarters, on one occasion. Now what does that show about a country, a U\u2014 a country that would help a, a gov\u2014\u00a0a government like that?<\/p>\n

Young woman: <\/b>It shows, um, how they treated blacks in the US.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Yeah, how\u2014 more than how they treat ya. How they regard<\/i> blacks. They\u2019re openly racist<\/i>, and don\u2019t give a shit<\/i> when the showdown comes, they\u2019ll show<\/i> that they openly don\u2019t give a goddamn<\/i> about anything in the\u2014\u00a0he\u2019s<\/i> conducting racial genocide<\/i> over there. Murder<\/i> of little children. Schools, villages.<\/i> So, yes, it shows how he feels, and doesn\u2019t care about black people. US government doesn\u2019t care. Okay, next? (Pause) What happened in Cleveland, Ohio of interest lately that I just talked about uh, news tonight?<\/p>\n

Young black man: <\/b>A youn\u2014 young mayor uh, was accused of favoritism and uh, racism and uh\u2014 (Jones talks over him)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yeah, that\u2019s right. Nepotism, and uh, wouldn\u2019t uh, fire bigots out of the police department, causing somebody that we used to know to even resign. He\u2019d<\/i> go along with most anything, he\u2014 to\u2014 had to be dirty before he\u2019d go\u2014\u00a0keep him from going along with it. (Pause) Well, what\u2019d they do about it? What\u2019d they do about him?<\/p>\n

Young black man: <\/b>Um\u2014 (Pause) Lessee. Des\u2014\u00a0Despite all that, he, he still made the uh, he still got to be mayor over all that.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Oh, well, he had, he had been<\/i> mayor. Youngest mayor in the hi\u2014\u00a0any city in United States. He\u2019s in his late twenties. Yeah, I believe it\u2019s late twenties. Very young. But he\u2019s a racist. And he\u2019s an opportunist. He gives jobs and favored treatment to various white members of the establishment ruling class. (Pause) You know how smart the establishment was? That\u2019s how dumb we\u2019ve been all these years. When they\u2019d call the election? When they\u2019d call the recall?<\/p>\n

Unintelligible response<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I\u2019m talking to this young man. What day did they have the recall?<\/p>\n

Unintelligible response<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Sunday. And why<\/i>? Because they knew they could depend on us, dumb asses,\u00a0our dumb ass blacks and Indians, to be in the fuckin\u2019 house of the Lord and not go and vote. \u2018Cause nobody gonna bring it up. The\u2014 the polls were open just through, till afternoon. So everybody went to Sunday school \u2014 (fake black woman accent) “I have to go sing in the choir, I have to show off my gloves, and I have to get up there and pass my fat ass in front of all the good folk” \u2014 (goes to angry tone) so, in a cou\u2014 city that has 65% black, the dumb asses stayed at home and went to their goddamn, jackleg churches, and cost them the election. And the white man knew it. That\u2019s why he gave them the religious (unintelligible word\u2014notes?) over in Africa. He knew<\/i> it, goddamnit, that\u2019s the only<\/i> thing that would subdue us. Only way he got those pricks<\/i> to work with him, was send some of missionaries that would indoctrinate them that the black man slaves, and the fools believed it. Jesus was their savior. I mean, those slave-traders. Slave murderers. Religious<\/i>. All of them were\u2014 many times were converted<\/i> to believe that God willed<\/i> black people to be slaves. The few that they\u2019d get to hunt the slaves down, you remember, from Roots<\/i>? You understand? I\u2014\u00a0You\u2014you got enough to pass. (Becomes angry) But that\u2014 See how\u2014\u00a0Do you understand what I just said there, honey? Will you wake up, goddamnit?<\/p>\n

Man in crowd: <\/b>That\u2019s right. Carl Stokes (Unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yeah, yeah. You know what\u2019s the difference\u2014 it\u2019s a different<\/i> Stokes. (Pause) (Stumbles for words) It\u2019s a different Stokes. We got the wrong Stokes.<\/p>\n

Unintelligible response<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>No. Have to correct that news item. It\u2019s not Carl Stokes.<\/p>\n

Unintelligible response<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Nope, he\u2019s not the same one. He did all the shit work, and he\u2019s got an NBC fat contract, or CBS, as a commentator. This man is another Tom. So it\u2019s not the same one. Lewis, I think. Leous Stokes. Whatever he is, he\u2019s right\u2014 they\u2019re calling him rightwing. I\u2019m not so sure he is<\/i> black. Now (Struggles for words) \u2018cause CBS called him<\/i> black. But I\u2019m not so sure. I\u2019m not even sure he is<\/i> black. Does anybody know Louis Stokes? I don\u2019t\u2014\u00a0I never heard of Louis Stokes. Hah?<\/p>\n

Unintelligible response<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>What about it, Bea? You know him?<\/p>\n

Unintelligible response<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>He is<\/i> black. Where\u2019s he from, honey?<\/p>\n

Unintelligible response about Carl vs. Louis Stokes.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Where\u2019s he from? (Pause) I think he\u2019s\u2014\u00a0I think it is\u2014\u00a0(unintelligible phrase). I don\u2019t know what he is. I know he\u2019s been acting like a right wing fanatic, and he\u2019s just trying to tear in to Oswald\u2019s [Ray’s] test\u2014\u00a0doc\u2014\u00a0shit. James Earl Ray, the framed-up\u2014 the guy that said he the fall guy\u2014\u00a0he tore into that guy after the marshals beat him up and took him back and he was in\u2014 even in coma a while. We had conflicting reports about it, but he was kept under lights, all of them agreed to that, for two days and two nights, floodlights, and he got\u2014 they put floodlight<\/i> in there, and they didn\u2019t even excuse that, the government admitted<\/i> it happened, (Struggles for words) they didn\u2019t even bother to give us an explanation, why you keep a man who\u2019s getting ready for testimony under lights burning down on him for 48 straight hours. They\u2019re weird. Well, Louis Stokes has been just tearing his testimony all to hell. Tearing into it. You won\u2019t\u2014\u00a0He can\u2019t get a word out of his mouth. And who\u2019d he bring as a witness against him today? Terrible. I\u2019m getting you ready for your next news, that\u2019s why I\u2019m doing this. \u2018Cause you\u2019ll have to know this tape next time, you see what I\u2019m saying? I want every bit of it to count. Who did they get ready? They got the only witness against\u2014\u00a0(short laugh) Jesus Christ. James Earl Ray is a former police inspector who had been fired<\/i> because he was involved in such ugly crimes that even the Memphis police<\/i> could not support him any more. He\u2019d gone to jail<\/i> for police corruption. All kinds of felonies. And now\u2019s involved in the underworld. And Mark Lane\u2014\u00a0the first time he lost his cool, he said, I refuse to hear any more he has to say. He just stomped out. I refuse to have anything\u2014 It\u2019s obvious you\u2019re managing this thing, it\u2019s a\u2014 obvious<\/i> you don\u2019t want objective truth, when you come up with a witness that is as a\u2014 crooked<\/i> as this man. And the former witness, you remember against Day\u2014\u00a0James Earl Ray. He was for<\/i> him, originally. Remember, originally? He said in Atlanta, he was in Atlanta, Georgia at such-and-such a time? Putting his\u2014\u00a0Getting his linen, his, his laundry? That fucker got up and twisted<\/i> his story today, turned his story clear<\/i> around. They say, well, why are you doing it now<\/i>? He said, well\u2014 why did you lie back then? There was no pressure on you then<\/i>. Or if this was<\/i>, there\u2019d certainly be more pressure (Struggles for words) of any<\/i> kind when you\u2019re trying to testify on behalf<\/i> of uh\u2014\u00a0of the person they want to pin. He was tested ba\u2014\u00a0testifying on behalf<\/i> of James Earl Ray, back in the first trial. He said, I was orchestrated<\/i>. They said, who by? Who orchestrated you? Well, it\u2019s just that my, my, I\u2014 I\u2014\u00a0I won\u2019t go any further. Someone orchestrated<\/i>. What he was really<\/i> saying, he was orchestrated this<\/i> time. That\u2019s what he was really saying, because they\u2019re orchestrating him, to try to send James Earl back up there and forget<\/i> about him and make him look like the lone assassin, if they don\u2019t kill him off in the meantime. What they liked<\/i> to\u2019ve done was got him dead<\/i>, but haven\u2019t been able to do so.<\/p>\n

Unintelligible response<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Yeah, Larry\u2014 Larry Jones (Struggles for words) Louis Stokes is a, a formerly a newspaperman from New York. That sounds like it (unintelligible words), that\u2019s right. (Pause) No doubt. (Pause) Orchestrated means that you do like a symphony, you make everybody do their songs, play their horn just right, everybody in their right place, and\u2014 and then somebody conducts and when he moves that stick, that violin moves, and he moves the stick over here, the cell moves, and you move the stick\u2014 you<\/i> know what I\u2019m talking about, don\u2019t you? Pulls the strings. Orchestrates it. Well, it\u2019s a mess. (Struggles for words) Got tired of listening the goddamn news, \u2018cause you\u2014 they\u2019re\u2014 they\u2019re gonna cover up any shit. If they don\u2019t cover it up, it\u2019ll be just like [Costa-Gavras political movie] Z<\/i>, right?<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Damn army will\u2014 If they ever arrest one of the generals for some of these crimes they did \u2014\u00a0you remember in Z<\/i>? They arrested him, put\u2014 gonna put him in jail\u2014 Oh, you go too far then, honey, they\u2019ll get your ass. (Pause) What is planned for Camp David? I want everybody to know this uh\u2014\u00a0it may not be so much news, but I want everybody to know on this tape tonight what the conspiracy is against us. And I only took you up to the early part of it. It\u2019s gotten much dead\u2014\u00a0dirtier. What else is in it? What they\u2019d come to, to [American Indian Movement leader] Dennis Banks? Six months? Six months before we ever had a newspaper slander? Said, if you will lie, and\u2014 and go along and attack Jim Jones and his movement, you won\u2019t have any trouble with your extradition order, or, we can get the matters dropped in other states against you, that there\u2019s\u2014 that\u2019s pending<\/i> against you. (Deliberate) If you don\u2019t<\/i> cooperate, you will be in lots of trouble. That\u2019s what they said to him. One man by the name of [Albert] Kahn who was in our same denomination, who worked for who<\/i>? (Breathless answer) Standard Oil. Mmm-hmm. What did Dennis Banks do? He told us. And he got a press conference, called a press conference \u2014 (Distracted) Will you wake up, for Christ\u2019s sakes, folks, please do this. And you ask me to go to Georgetown, some of you young\u2014 younger people here, I\u2014 this outrageous. I\u2014 I\u2019m not going send nobody to Georgetown, can\u2019t stay awake during the meeting. (Pause) Now. What what what what what what? Dennis Banks stood up and said that<\/i>, and gave a public news conference about it, and nobody carried shit about it, except the Examiner<\/i>, and they just had a picture of\u2014 of\u2014 of the\u2014 of him in the picture<\/i>, and what\u2019d all the rest of it do? Rehash of all the old lies. Didn\u2019t even want to admit there was a conspiracy.<\/p>\n

Unintelligible response by one man<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(Unintelligible) I know he\u2019ll get it. He\u2019ll get it, because he uh, see\u2014 Governor Brown\u2019s on the hot seat. He\u2019s no safer than the governor. And, the court stood back in Governor Brown\u2019s lap. Said, unless governor orders the extradition, it\u2019s not our duty to interfere with the executive branch that\u2014 the president is executive branch on the federal government, and the governor\u2019s the executive branch on the state level, right? So he said, it\u2019s not our duty. So you<\/i> watch this. He gets closer to that Car\u2014 that, that showdown, election. What did Brown do last week? Call for law<\/i> and order. Strict<\/i> enforcement of laws, against the minorities. He said, we have had too<\/i> many people crying racism. (Pause) Hmm. Isn\u2019t that much? Can you imagine him saying that? I wouldna believed it, if I hadn\u2019t heard his words on Voice of America, the\u2014 that sounded a bit t\u2014\u00a0too much for me, but he\u2019s gone that far. So you think he\u2019s gonna\u2014 when that election comes up, that the rightwing\u2019s going to make hell over that. And you think he won\u2019t? I think he will.<\/p>\n

Unintelligible response by one man<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>And if he loses, you know<\/i> the next governor who\u2019s running against him. [California Attoney General] Evelle Younger? Heh.<\/p>\n

Crowd reacts<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Right wing. Openly right wing. Known racist. He\u2019ll\u2014 First<\/i> week, if Dennis hadn\u2019t got his ass out of there, the first<\/i> week, he will\u2014 the first<\/i> week he comes to office, I\u2019ll bet you, he moves against Dennis. That\u2019d be my opinion. But everybody tells things are going cool<\/i> for Dennis. Even, uh\u2014 everybody but him. All of our liberal friends think it\u2019ll be just fine. We\u2019ll see who\u2019s right. (Changes subject) All right, now, what\u2014 where\u2014 where were we? What is planned for Camp David? (Pause) President [Jimmy] Carter\u2019s retreat, his summer camp. [Former President Dwight] Eisenhower had it, we always heard that damn name, and they named it after Eisenhower. Camp David.<\/p>\n

Young woman: <\/b>Um.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Shift, please. (Pause) (Sigh). Shit. Fawn (?) giving help too much longer. Now what\u2019s hap\u2014\u00a0what\u2019s planned for Camp David?<\/p>\n

Young woman: <\/b>They, um, bringing back um, the, the camp, concentration camp\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>No no no. No, uh, you, obviously you don\u2019t know this stu\u2014\u00a0question, darling. You\u2019ll have to take another class. Th\u2014 That\u2019s all right. You\u2019re a good person. Just need a class. That\u2019s not\u2014 That\u2019s not\u2014 it has nothing to do with the concentration camps. Thank you. Next. You may be seated.<\/p>\n

Second woman: <\/b>I believe there\u2019s going to be a conference between [President] Anwar Sadat of Egypt and Prime Minister [Menachem] Begin of Israel.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Yes\u2014<\/p>\n

Second woman: <\/b>\u2014 and Carter.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Both dictators, in their way. What a\u2014\u00a0What a terrible thing did\u2014\u00a0What terrible thing did Begin do, that\u2014 most awesome thing (struggles for words) I<\/i> suspect some of us\u2019ll never really get off our little ass until somebody shoots<\/i> one of us. What happened? Zionism played a bad<\/i> game. They moved in Beirut in the middle of the Arab section, where all the principal Arab leaders \u2014 and they don\u2019t like Arabs, period, right or<\/i> left \u2014\u00a0and they blew up all<\/i> their children and their wives, and you know what the hell they just caused? For the first time in history, all<\/i> the Palestinians, right and left, all<\/i> the Arabs, right and left, no matter how much differences they\u2019ve got, they got one enemy that\u2019s bigger than their differences. Zionism. Racism. So they\u2019re calling a summit meeting. And that\u2019s something I wish you could. You people gripe and complain, you\u2019re never sorry\u2014 (erupts angrily) Don\u2019t you have any enemies that are greater than any difference you have with somebody here in Peoples Temple?<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(Calls out) Don\u2019t you have something worse<\/i> back there to hate? Didn\u2019t you come out of something worse?<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Don\u2019t you have some relatives you could hate?<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>You hate their ways for what they\u2019ve done?<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Don\u2019t you hate them for this terrible thing, they tried to frame [Jim] McElvane?<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Don\u2019t<\/i> make it necessary, that one of our people be shot down (pause) before you get your act together.<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>And some of you have greatness in this place. (Voice moderates) But I don\u2019t believe we\u2019ll ever see it, until somebody swoops in with a plane and bombs us. (Pause) That\u2019s my\u2014 That\u2019s my sad feeling. I think some people cannot live in an invec\u2014\u00a0in an intellectual environment, in a stimulating environment, in an environment of great opportunity, environment of lovely food and cosmopolitan living and the best air\u2014 I don\u2019t believe they can stay revolutionary that way. (Pause) And I\u2019m not going to hire no goddamn plane as a gimmick. You get what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I ain\u2019t starting no White Nights for gimmickry. \u2018Cause I can\u2019t take no<\/i> White Night. If it\u2019s a White Night, baby, we don\u2019t even refer to that. Let\u2019s forget that. It\u2019s an Alpha\u2014\u00a0It\u2019ll be an Omega, by God, before I call you, almost, \u2018cause I\u2019m sick of them. I\u2019m sick of those goddamn things. That\u2019s too much, hours and hours of worrying and pain and grief, so, I\u2019m<\/i> not going to create a situation which we have to discuss. But some<\/i> of you forget<\/i> too easily. They have<\/i> shot at me, and missed me by just a few inches.<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>They did<\/i> try to invade us. They did<\/i> come in with a massive conspiracy and stole everything we had in the supply, while we were guarding the\u2014 the houses, the next moment, they stole all of our shoes. White men led it. Just talking about it tonight, the head of the party, PNC. (Coughs) He\u2019s never been heard, hide nor h\u2014 hair of since that time, when he was trying\u2014 coming in, trying to find out who John [Victor Stoen] was. Had kidnapping in mind, too, but we were w\u2014 were wise, but we\u2019re getting soft<\/i>. (Pause) Some of us are not watching<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Because we don\u2019t have<\/i> guns. We\u2019re not watching. By God, you should watch. And not<\/i> pray. Yeah, watch and<\/i> pray.<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Laughter.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I mean prey like a fuckin\u2019 fox. Just look for any shit you can find, because if somebody<\/i> in here is an agent, and they make a contact, or tried to, like that one day, when the black sisters sighted this last person in\u2014 dressed in black. They got us diverted. (Pause) By God, it only take one<\/i> contact that could get you killed.<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Get your children killed. If we don\u2019t cooperate and get our people out of there and quit wasting so much money, and causing some to have to stay back and feel that they have to, \u2018cause they see the books, and one of them gets arrested, or one of them gets killed, how you gonna feel then? (Pause) Some of you wouldn\u2019t feel anything. Lot of you, uh, it\u2019d be just like me, it\u2019d be close to it, it\u2019d be pain terribly. Okay (sighs), uh, you answered that, yes. Carter\u2019s going to try to get together with Begin and Sadat. Both of them, Sadat\u2019s been a sell-out in the Arab world, they don\u2019t like him, and now they\u2014 he says he won\u2019t compromise, and neither will (sighs) uh, Begin, he won\u2019t give back any of the conquered territories of West Jordan, West Bank that belongs to Jordan, or the Gaza Strip that he stole from Egypt, or the\u2014 Southern Lebanon that he keeps in the hands of rightwing Christians. What does Iraq say? (Pause) What\u2019s Iraq got to say about all this these days? What\u2019s happening to Iraq?<\/p>\n

Young man: <\/b>Iraq is being attacked, uh, all over, because of its stand. It wants\u2014 it\u2019s trying to pressure the Arab nations to uh, change from using the U.S. dollar and use gold, and it also<\/i> wants the Arab nations to refine their own oil.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

Young man: <\/b>And so, it\u2019s become\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Make their own oil, instead of let\u2014 letting the big capitalists like Standard Oil, Shell and so forth, uh, rip off all the profits, because they got the equipment in USA or in US territory, where they refine the oil. That\u2019s true.<\/p>\n

Young man: <\/b>The ambassador, um\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>They also want him to do something else \u2014\u00a0you\u2019ve already passed it in good color, um\u2014 want something else. I want to put it in for knowledge. They want the Arab nations to be\u2014 develop their own arms so they won\u2019t be dependent upon USA when they have to fight their wars for their own freedom. And Iraq says\u2014\u00a0What does it say about Israel?<\/p>\n

Young man: <\/b>Um\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, don\u2019t worry, you passed. Iraq said about Israel, that has no right<\/i> to exist. It\u2019s a religious state. It\u2014 no Muslim state has been allowed. Uh, the United Nations has given no approval<\/i> to a Muslim state, or a Christian state, but they have some. No<\/i> religious state. He wants a combination government made up of Arabs and Jews, and call it the new Palestine. So, he fell in trouble with USSR because USSR feels you gotta talk and negotiate, at least life has to be guaranteed to the Israelis, or they will start nuclear war. And USSR \u2014 the Soviet Union \u2014 is trying to avoid nuclear war. And China may be just as ideally trying it too, but they know<\/i>, the longer you\u2019d spare it, if it\u2019s going to happen, the more people gonna be killed in the long run. I think someone wrote me, I can\u2019t\u2014\u00a0I\u2014\u00a0I think it was Pauline Groot, you were questioning, you said you needed for mo\u2014 moral reasons to believe in China, you were very, uh, honest about that. You said, uh, something, I guess, you wanted for your own moral reasons that China\u2014 you, you, you just couldn\u2019t face the fact that she would uh, operate from a plan to bring about Third World War.<\/p>\n

Unintelligible response.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>No, no. Well, they\u2019re not bluffing it. They\u2014 they said it tonight. (Short laugh) They spoke to themselves on the news, and from the\u2014 from Romania. They said the prime minister [Hua Kuo-fenj] says nuclear war, and uh, everybody believes him. BBC believes him. They really believe it. BBC won\u2019t say always they<\/i> believe it\u2019s gonna happen, they always say\u2014 everybody says it\u2019ll happen, sooner or later. But he\u2019s\u2014\u00a0the Chinese prime minister says it\u2019ll happen within a year. He said it three or four times now. No<\/i>, no, they\u2019re not\u2014\u00a0they\u2019re not kidding nobody. But why would they have to bluff, Paulie, why\u2014 why do you (struggles for words) what is it that you feel is immoral about uh, such a con\u2014 a consideration? (Pause) From your<\/i> frame of reference.<\/p>\n

Pauline: <\/b>Um.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Shift, please. Wake up, please.<\/p>\n

Pauline: <\/b>(Speaks slowly) I\u2014\u00a0I\u2019m having trouble putting the exact words behind it. It\u2014 (Pause)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> We get a lot of helpful things in writing, I like to he\u2014 see you write. But uh, that point, I thought you were a little uh, idealistic, uh, too much too utopianistic.<\/p>\n

Pauline: <\/b>May very well be. Ah\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Don\u2019t you believe nuclear war is de\u2014 bound to happen, from your point of view as a scientist? You\u2019ve got a lot of scientific training.<\/p>\n

Pauline: <\/b>Uh, yes\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> You may be seated.<\/p>\n

Pauline: <\/b>I\u2019m\u2014 I believe it\u2019s bound to happen, even for\u2014 for one thing, it\u2019s the scientists that I grew up with that worked on that stuff are\u2014 I don\u2019t know quite how to put it, but there\u2014 (Jones talks over her)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> We don\u2019t have a lot\u2014\u00a0We don\u2019t have a lot\u2014 We don\u2019t have\u2014\u00a0We don\u2019t have a lot to talk\u2014We don\u2019t have a lot of time for dialogue. I just\u2014 I\u2019m just trying to find out\u2014\u00a0So if you believe it\u2019s going to happen<\/i>, that there\u2019s too many bombs and too many nationalists and too much fear and too much conniving and too much, uh, paranoia, distrust, then, would the Chinese not be right<\/i>? (Pause) Would they not be m\u2014 Would they not be right<\/i> to seek, to stop it from killing all<\/i> of mankind. Unless you are a hedonist or something. Nihilist. Nihilistist, they don\u2019t believe in anything, correct? Is that\u2014 Is that a correct analysis for nihilism?<\/p>\n

Pauline: <\/b>Um\u2014 Correct, yes.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Ah, I want to be sure. Getting up, up there in the days. (Pause) Is that all there is to nihilism? There\u2019s more to that to nihilism\u2014 (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Unintelligible response<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Accept no authorities, and believe in what?<\/p>\n

Unintelligible response<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> No\u2014 no philosophy, no religion? Yeah.<\/p>\n

Unintelligible response<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> A defeatist attitude. Yeah, it is. Well, I suppose a nihilist would believe he could never, (stumbles over words) they don\u2019t believe in anything, they don\u2019t believe anything will ever good come out of the human race. So the best thing for them, I guess, they\u2014 we just blow up the face of the\u2014 blow the whole damn world<\/i>. Unless you were a nihilist, though\u2014 and with the scientific evidence that only USA is going to suffer the most tragically\u2014 I\u2019m reading that from more radical and even more, uh\u2014 they consider the bomb a greater menace than some people there prepared to admit. USA says, of course, you know, they tell the people, they\u2019ll survive and a bunch of bullshit. Most of the time in the press<\/i> they do. But every now and then, like Secretary [Robert] McNamara \u2014 you remember when he was the head of the Secretary of Defense?<\/p>\n

Unintelligible response<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> And now he\u2019s the head of the World Bank? He said, there will<\/i> be a nuclear war. And he said \u2014 that was what? Fifteen years ago? God, I don\u2019t know. Time\u2014 Ten years ago? He said\u2014 in the first 20 minutes, 149 million US people will die. At that time, I think our population was around 200 million. And they still<\/i> say it. I got some more statistics. I don\u2019t remember them. They still<\/i> say it. Now it\u2019s two hundred and something. Two hundred million and seven, or 206<\/i> that will die in the first few minutes. So if (stumbles over words) if that\u2019s bound to happen, uh, wouldn\u2019t you, uh\u2014 I wouldn\u2019t want you to feel immoral about that, Pauline. Um. The Soviet Union, I think, are being naive. I think they\u2019re on the vanguard more\u2014 as much as you can know uh, between the, the lines. I think they are\u2014\u00a0uh\u2014<\/p>\n

End of side 1<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Side 2<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> \u2014 sell them opium to their drug market. They were bla\u2014 they were white-marketing in opium<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Pauline: <\/b>China didn\u2019t want the capitalists selling opium in China. They tried to clean it up so their own Chinese people would not have to be addicted to the drug (Jones talks over last few words)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> They didn\u2019t want it\u2014 They didn\u2019t want it anywhere. Some of the\u2014 some of the people were very, very uh, moralistic. They didn\u2019t want the shit to go out. They didn\u2019t want them to\u2014 more<\/i> than the morality, they didn\u2019t want them to have the exclusive right, as you say, to export<\/i> (exploit?) it. And by God, from a little incident, I, uh\u2014 it\u2019s one of those things that bought a whole war. Just some little some affront that a white man had because a Chinese spoke him back\u2014\u00a0spoke back to him, that caused the goddamn war, in which Ch\u2014 Ch\u2014 millions of Chinese um, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands were massacred. (Pause) Okay. Now do\u2014 do\u2014 do\u2014 what is your reason to have difficulty with China, saying well, shit, it\u2019s gonna happen, it\u2019s best that it happens before this which is a zone of peace\u2014 this is a declared zone of peace between the Soviet Union and the USA. They\u2019ll never drop any nuclear bombs in this region<\/i>. Now they\u2019re making the Indian Ocean a zone of peace, all through the subcontinent of India. If anybody deserves it, it\u2019s the Indians\u2014 Christ, they ought to deserve\u2014 they\u2019ve been treated like a damn bunch of dogs, allowed every damn famine, when they\u2019re not in a famine, they\u2019re in torrential monsoon rains, I guess they (stumbles over words) should<\/i> have some agreements. But what\u2019s going to happen? India\u2019s<\/i> got the bomb. She hasn\u2019t had much time to industrialize, but she\u2019s got the bomb. Any nation that has any capacity at all<\/i> to forge industrialization can make that bomb. (Pause) So. Now, why do you find that difficult? Morally.<\/p>\n

Pauline: <\/b>Um. (Pause) I get my emotions too tangled up in this, partly due to\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> You recognize that\u2014 (Snapping fingers) Know it. Know it. One thing you can never<\/i> do, is allow your emotions to get in the way of your socialist philosophy. Ah, you stop and think of those babies, the skin pull\u2014 falling off their skin, off their bone, and it\u2019s so horrible, and people\u2019s eyes blinded as we saw in the movies, at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, till you open them, and there nothing but a mass of pus. (Pause) Then scorched through, you could tell just like somebody put a welding torch right on them.<\/p>\n

Pauline: <\/b>Um-hmm.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> When you see that\u2014\u00a0wake up, darling on the front row, young lady\u2014 when you see that, I can know the terror<\/i> of thinking of just the USA alone that\u2019s going to die. Two hundred million? And what\u2019s worse, what\u2019s going to happen to the 40 million left alive, \u2018cause they won\u2019t have any way to fight radiation, there\u2019s no underground shelters, which shows the superiority of socialism over capitalism, because socialist China and Russia and even socialist democracy in Sweden, uh, provide underground shelters. But don\u2019t even let your emotions rule you, because what you have to face is like this: how would you like to see, as opposed to, what would presently be probably 400 million dead, or would you like to see four billion<\/i>, four billion, (Slows speech for emphasis) slowly dying, that didn\u2019t get the bomb directly. A whole globe, where there\u2019d never be anything alive again. Now you may say, I wish it were that way, but you\u2019re not a socialist if you do. Don\u2019t you think children who are born<\/i> \u2014 I\u2019m not talking about the unborn \u2014 don\u2019t you think children who are born and have been starved all their life have a right to life?<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Been brought up in religious prejudices that they can\u2019t lay down their life, wouldn\u2019t know how to do it, wouldn\u2019t have the means to do it, and some of them don\u2019t even possess a knife to cut their food, they have to grub it out with their hands, steal it from garbage pails. Don\u2019t you think they have a right to life? Do you think communism can<\/i> work? Do you think socialism can<\/i> work? Yes, in spite of all the hell here, if it can work here, baby, it can work anywhere.<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Because we\u2019ve got a goddamn bunch of spoiled Americans.<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Come on, now.<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> (Louder) Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Spoiled<\/i> as hell. Pampered as hell. Most of them never knew what a depression was<\/i>, never knew what police brutality was<\/i>, or they forget it, they don\u2019t want to be reminded\u2014 what? Never knew what work was, yes, thank you, sir, I\u2014 that\u2019s bor\u2014 (laughs)<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Laughter.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Lighter tone) Never knew what work was, and still don\u2019t.<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Never had a war on your land. If this bunch of shit<\/i> can make a socialist community that\u2019s decent<\/i> and more than halfway decent, then anybody should be able to build socialism.<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Right?<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> (Louder) Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> So the miracle is these seniors that are learning to read and write, when they were supposed to be handicapped \u2014 Marceline [Jones] told me herself \u2014\u00a0had so much corrosion in their blood vessels that there\u2019s no way they could memorize. And I said we\u2019ll see. I ain\u2019t gone tell<\/i> you who they are, \u2018cause they\u2019ve already memorized it. (Laughs) They can give you the Doctrine of Three Worlds<\/a>. Fuck<\/i> medicine. Fuck<\/i> capitalist medicine, you know. We\u2019ve done great miracles<\/i> here.<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> (Scattered) Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Where there\u2019s a will, there\u2019s a way<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> You got a will to live, you can go through many a storm. We saw that in a simple-assed Hollywood movie the other night. The plague that killed something, some shit, and, uh, we\u2014 you got it, you can see it. I don\u2019t know what the fuck it was. The Killer That Stalked New York<\/i>, and it was some kind of\u2014\u00a0well, you see it. That woman had a mission, by God. And don\u2019t tell me a mission won\u2019t hold you together. (Sings out) Don\u2019t<\/i> tell me it won\u2019t hold you together. It will. I got fever right now, and I\u2019m here on a mission, I\u2019m not sure very effective, but by God, (short laugh) if I knew I was dying for sure, oh, ho ho ho (Michael Jackson “Ow”). I keep saying this, \u2018cause they don\u2019t like this. They don\u2019t like (unintelligible phrase). (unintelligible word) fucker\u2019s immortal. They\u2019re in\u2014 They\u2019re eternally immortal. They come out of the divine mother virgin Mary, their daddy didn\u2019t have anything to do with fucking, they\u2019re going to live forever. Never can stand this, they never can stand this. Don\u2019t want to die. But if you were going<\/i> to die, what would you do? Everybody ought to have it worked out in their mind. (Speaks deliberately) What would you do? I got it all worked out. And if I was sick, like some of these people have been, lay in the last moment, people follow the rules, they wouldn\u2019t have\u2014\u00a0we haven\u2019t had but three [deaths in Jonestown]. Even my mother. You gotta follow all the rules<\/i>, you want to live longer and healthy, keep alive and get resurrection. That should not be an end, but we should try to stay alive, be less complaining and follow all rules. Some good people\u2014 Some of the good people pass who were not complainers, but they\u2014 they<\/i> would never attempt to uh, change some of their way. Smoking. You know what I mean. Let\u2019s face it, Emmett [Griffith, Sr.] and Lyn\u2014 Lynetta [Jones] knew better. You understand what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Crowd: <\/b>Yes.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> But a lot of good people will die. That\u2019s not the point. Good people die. The issue is, say,<\/i> why is it that some of you have never faced it? I\u2019ve wondered, though, why had\u2014 any time\u2014 ex\u2014except my mother. She said, I wou\u2014\u00a0I wish you\u2019d let me out of here, I said, Mother, you couldn\u2019t get across, uh, couldn\u2019t get across the Atlantic. She say, ohhh, yes I could. I said, she couldn\u2019t, her legs were all swollen up. Said I\u2014 she said I personally, I personally like to kill that Tim Stoen. She says that critter don\u2019t deserve<\/i> to live another day. Said. if I\u2019da got my mother loose<\/i> in New York, she mighta made it, but I knew that\u2014 that high altitude, she wouldn\u2019t have. Hmm?<\/p>\n

Unintelligible comment.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> She didn\u2019t know much about the conspiracy now. But you<\/i> watch. These people will\u2014\u00a0if they\u2019d got down, were ready to die, you\u2019ll never hear a word come out of their mouth. (Pause) Hah?<\/p>\n

Crowd: <\/b>(Scattered) Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> You never hear a word come out of their mind about what they\u2019re going to do, to help a cause. One of our other people saw they had cancer for sure, I know we did, the doctor did, (unintelligible word) rate was high, shakin\u2019, he<\/i> had some calculatin\u2019 what he<\/i> was going to do. And let me tell you, friends, I couldn\u2019t\u2014 I had to take the chance that I could heal<\/i> him, and I did. It dropped, but he looked like walking death. I was about tempted<\/i>\u2014 he looked like walking death. I mean, he looked<\/i> like walking death to me. And he felt<\/i> like it, he couldn\u2019t keep going at all so\u2014 (Cries out) So what would you do if you\u2014 I ain\u2019t gone tell you. You ought to know. Every socialist ought to know. You ought to have a little plan. Hmm? I shouldn\u2019t be (unintelligible word \u2014 pam? meaning hand?) feeding you. Have you thought about it right now? How many already got in your mind what you\u2019d do if you died, would\u2014 knew you were dying? Ah, some people are honest. They haven\u2019t got it out, but you ought to start thinking, right now, in your brain. You ought to have it in five minutes, while I\u2019m talking here. Hmm? (Pause) Okay. Shift again. (Pause) What\u2019s China\u2019s\u2014 (mumbles question to himself) Okay, we got that. (Mumbles question to himself) Oh, shit, we\u2019re back on that again, huh? (Pause) So all that group been through, that was in the bakery?<\/p>\n

Voice off mike: <\/b>No, Dad (rest of short sentence too soft)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Oh, Lord. Okay, (sighs), the Rosenbergs. Who were the Rosenbergs, and um, what happened to them?<\/p>\n

Young woman: <\/b>The Rosenbergs were um, uh, just normal people living in America, and they were framed\u2014 they were framed, um\u2014 (Pause), they were framed for um, be\u2014 um, getting the atomic information to the um, Russia.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes, that\u2019s right. What\u2014 what background were they? What ethnic background?<\/p>\n

Young woman: <\/b>They were Jewish.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> They were Jewish. They wanted to extract from them certain things. Okay, pass. (Pause) Good. How could they have avoided going to death? The Rosenbergs could have avoided going to death by t\u2014 two times, by doing something. They could have avoided a terrible death in the electric chair.<\/p>\n

Young woman: <\/b>They\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Sing Sing. For their children, it was a terrible death.<\/p>\n

Young woman: <\/b>They coulda went to prison.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Shocked) Of course, you could go to prison. I mean, what could they have done as individuals, that beli\u2014 makes me not<\/i> be a nihilist. \u2018Cause people like that, you can\u2019t get around<\/i>. You can\u2019t get around<\/i> some people in Haymarket Affair. You can\u2019t get around<\/i> the Rosenbergs. You can\u2019t get around<\/i> Patrice Lumumba. You can\u2019t get over, (Sings) too hi-i-i-gh, you got\u2014 can\u2019t go over it, too lo-o-ow, you can\u2019t get under it, too wi-i-i-ide, you can\u2019t get round it, you gonna have to come through the socialist door. (Normal tone of voice) Why? Victor Jara (unintelligible name), sing your arm with his arms off. Yeah, children. Why? What could they have done? They were offered the most important message of the whole film. To me, to me, it showed me something profound.<\/p>\n

Young woman: <\/b>They coulda lied, but instead, they didn\u2019t. They\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> No nonononononono. They coulda done that. No no no no. Did you see the film?<\/p>\n

Young woman: <\/b>Yes, Dad.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Last night?<\/p>\n

Young woman: <\/b>Yes. Um.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Unintelligible\u2014\u00a0“What was the point of it, darling?) I really<\/i> thought I pointed that out. How many could hear my interpretations over the\u2014 over the uh, film? (Pause) Well, you\u2019re\u2014\u00a0you\u2019re bright. That\u2019s why I know I, uh\u2014\u00a0you musta been tired<\/i> or not listening. I\u2019ll have to go on, because I\u2014 I can\u2019t\u2014 if I start giving time for one another, we\u2019ll be here all night. Go on. Next. (Pause) What could they have done to save themselves?<\/p>\n

Young woman 2: <\/b>Um. They could have um, gave up for what they believe in, they coulda just\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> You don\u2019t know either, do you?<\/p>\n

Young woman 2: <\/b>I heard it today, but I\u2014 I didn\u2019t understand it.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, don\u2019t get nervous. Just try. If they give up what they believe in, yes, but the other said as principally as that. As much. I haven\u2019t figured out how many days you\u2019ll have, I know we\u2019re going to have two<\/i> extra days of study for those who do not pass this c\u2014 this class. Maybe five. Depends upon our activities. (Pause) You don\u2019t\u2014 You don\u2019t know? You don\u2019t remember any of it, honey? Joyce [Touchette], you don\u2019t remember any of it?<\/p>\n

Young woman 2: <\/b>(Unintelligible fade in) I\u2014 I just forget.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, try to\u2014 try to (unintelligible word) might\u2014 Comrade Teacher\u2014 principals, Clara and uh, Grubbs should be able to tell us maybe a little memory drill. Honey, you\u2019re going to have to begin back at a much uh, earlier level, you know, some things. But to me, that was the most touching thing about the whole movie. Co\u2014 But that again, I think, shows something about you, \u2018cause you\u2019re bright too. You\u2014 if you\u2019re really<\/i> socially sensitive, if you really feel<\/i> for others, if you really<\/i> have an empathy, putting yourself in somebody else\u2019s shoes, (claps hands) it would have gripped you, and you\u2019da got that, if you didn\u2019t get anything else. If you\u2019re young. Now a senior<\/i> might have trouble. But I\u2019ll bet you there\u2019s some seniors that got it. (Pause). Yes. Okay, Joyce? Stand up and tell me what it was.<\/p>\n

Joyce: <\/b>(Unintelligible fade in)\u2014they wasn\u2019t accused. They was accused, but they wasn\u2019t guilty.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> That\u2019s right, they were accused of uh, signing false uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Joyce: <\/b>They was accused\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> They\u2014 they refused to say, I\u2019m guilty, and beg for the mercy of the court. Now there was another<\/i> time, if they\u2019da done something else<\/i> \u2014\u00a0that\u2019s good, she got that, put her down \u2014\u00a0what else? You know? It was another time. It was another time. They were offered some other<\/i> thing, that\u2019da got \u2018em a much better deal than that. Only three people in this place know it? (Pause) Good Lord. (Pause) Good Lord. You do<\/i> know it, don\u2019t you? (Pause) What was it?<\/p>\n

Unintelligible comment.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Al Simon back there, what was it? Shout it out.<\/p>\n

Unintelligible comment.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> What? (Pause) If you didn\u2019t hear the question, how could you raise your hand that you got the answer? (Laughs) The question was\u2014 (Pause) Don\u2019t, don\u2019t\u2014 please don\u2019t do this, folks. The question was\u2014 (Pause) (Sighs) I, I\u2019m so damn feverish, I can\u2019t even remember the question. The question was, there was another chance they were given to do something. If they\u2019d done it, (struggles for words) for the government, it woulda helped uh, capitalism and to help anti-communism, they coulda done\u2014 another thing they were offered to do. (Pause) You remember now?<\/p>\n

Replies too soft<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> No, no, that\u2019s it\u2014 that\u2019s it in substance, but that\u2014 that\u2019s pretty good logic, but that\u2019s not it exactly. Yes, uh, Reb [James Edwards], what?<\/p>\n

Reply too soft<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> That\u2019s right. And to help build Israel. To help build Israel. That that should be the only cause. And they refused<\/i> to do that, too. And that would have gotten them\u2014 from what the insinuations was\u2014 were, that would have perhaps<\/i> even gotten them free. To walk the streets. \u2018Cause they were a national<\/i>\u2014 They were national heroes and heroines. There\u2019ve never been so many people out on the streets for anyone. Second only was Paul Robeson, but even Robeson<\/i> never command the attention, the interest of the Rosenbergs. The eyes<\/i> of the world were upon them. And I\u2019m sure they\u2019da\u00a0baded them gladly, they got the eyes\u2014 at that time, in the early fifties, to look towards supporting Israel and say that the Soviets are really enemies of the Jews, and Communists are enemies of the Jews, and tell this soc\u2014 socialists, they ought to all get behind the Zionist struggle, and build a reli\u2014 religious state called Israel. Okay. Thank you, honey. (Pause) Next. Next question. What part did the following people play in the trial? David Greenglass and Harry Gold.<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>Uh, David Greenglass was Ethel Rosenberg\u2019s sis\u2014 uh, brother, and he\u2014 he told her that Julius was the one who\u2014 he started this, um, get the plans for the Russians, and he had the uh, Jello boxtop that somebody was going to come and match with him, and he implicated that Julius and uh, Ethel had to do with it, and David Gold was um, (unintelligible phrase\u2014\u00a0at the end, he?) he was\u2014\u00a0he was crazy, and he\u2014 he\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Some people remember words like that. What was it? I\u2014\u00a0I\u2014 I wou\u2014\u00a0I remember the word. And when the psychiatrist called him something. Gold. Know what it was?<\/p>\n

Reply too soft<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Last word ending in “loco.”<\/p>\n

Reply too soft<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Pseudo-fantastico?<\/p>\n

Reply too soft<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Hmm? (Pause) Pseudo\u2014 (Pause) Oh, I know that. False. Pseudo means false.<\/p>\n

Reply too soft<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> False fantastic talking. Fantastic nightmares. Wild dreams. All the time, he talked wild\u2014\u00a0of schemes. Even loved to g\u2014 And there\u2019re some people, I don\u2019t know what the psychological disease is, they\u2014 they\u2019ll get publicity even if they go to the gas chamber. There\u2019re people like that. They con\u2014 They confess to every crime. They confess all the time, out of a sense of guilt, the\u2014\u00a0What\u2019s the label? What\u2019s the\u2014 They\u2019ll they\u2019ll they\u2019ll confess to any<\/i> goddamn thing. He got<\/i> it. He sure got jailed for it. (Pause) What?<\/p>\n

Reply too soft<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yeah yeah, we\u2014 yeah, we know, I wanted to know if they had a mental\u2014 if they had a description. Those who cannot face what they have done in their life, or what life is, they have to develop some fantastic kind of phantasmagoria, some kind of hallucination. But uh, who are those that uh\u2014 is there a word for it? I\u2019ve forgotten. There was. Psychological word for those who feel so guilty, that they\u2019ll confess to things, even on a lunatic<\/i> basis. They think they\u2019re behind everything. I have a woman here in my mer\u2014 movement. When she first came in the movement, she was\u2014\u00a0she was responsible for everything. If I\u2014Somebody got in my pulpit one time\u2014 No, not delusions of grandeur. Uh, (gusts) yeah\u2014 this woman never had delusions<\/i> of grandeur, but she, uh\u2014 somebody preached on Adam. And that\u2019s what I believe about mentally-disturbed people, I don\u2019t uh, I\u2014 I believe anything\u2019s curable. \u2018Cause Esther [Mueller] was settin\u2019 over there, and she\u2019s been in responsible work, and done strategic work, and done highly sensitive work. She been with me for 20 years, but she was crazier than a March hare when she came. Her family was gonna put her in a mental<\/i> hospital, and she was crazy<\/i>. So some of you\u2014 and you\u2014\u00a0they oughtna look at uh\u2014 stand up, Esther. She knows herself together now, and can\u2014\u00a0she\u2019s in her late seventies and does everything, but when she came 20 years ago, she was crazy, \u2018cause somebody preached the doctrine on the fall of man, and she liked to bug my ass for an hour, she said, I\u2019m responsible for Adam\u2019s sin.<\/p>\n

Crowd: <\/b>General laughter.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I don\u2019t know whether she thought then she was out in the fuckin\u2019 garden, I don\u2019t know, maybe she thought she was Eve. No, she didn\u2019t. She just felt guilty, and something unexplainable\u2014 she\u2019d take responsibility every<\/i> time I preached a sermon. I\u2019ve got some still. (Gusty breath) It\u2019s always them. But for some of us, because they (Gusty breath) they\u2019re guilty. They\u2019re guilty of everything. Okay. Now, you give us a pretty good breakdown of Gold there, so give me something so I can\u2014 I\u2019m nervous, \u2018cause I don\u2019t want to hold it up waitin\u2019 on uh\u2014 I can do it. I can do it out here. Okay, you passed. Harry Gold. (Pause) What was revealed about the jury? Terrible things about that jury.<\/p>\n

Younger girl: <\/b>That, um, they picked\u2014 they picked no um, working class. They um, they didn\u2019t pick no Jew, no\u2014 no Jew\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n

Younger girl: <\/b>And um\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> No working class?<\/p>\n

Younger girl: <\/b>No, no no.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> You got enough to pass. (Pause) What else<\/i> didn\u2019t they do?<\/p>\n

Younger girl: <\/b>And um\u2014 (Pause)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> They couldn\u2019t read any progressive newspapers, or liberal newspapers.<\/p>\n

Younger girl: <\/b>And um\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Naturally, they couldn\u2019t be socialist. (Pause) Well, you hit enough. They didn\u2019t pick a\u2014They wouldn\u2019t let a Jew sit in the jury, they wouldn\u2019t let anybody that was progressive, liberal even \u2014\u00a0not socialist \u2014 nobody be on there, and they had to\u2014\u00a0they\u2014 prosecutor could eliminate any<\/i> juror he wanted to, based on what they read. If they read anything progressive or liberal\u2014 they wanted people who read the old<\/i> guidelines, the Reader\u2019s Digest<\/i>, and U.S. News & World Report<\/i>. (Pause) Yes. (Pause) And I hope that picked up. Prosecutor was allowed to know full files, yes, but the defense attorney was not. Yes.<\/p>\n

Chaikin: <\/b>I just wanted to say that they do that\u2014\u00a0they do that in all the major poli\u2014 political cases, they do it in all the major criminal cases, where they got blacks or minority, uh, the prosecution, the district attorneys, they\u2019ve always got FBI profiles on all the prospective jurors. The defense attorneys don\u2019t. It\u2019s a standard way they have of putting people on ice.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n

Chaikin: <\/b>Been going on for years in every state\u2014 major trial.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Very good point. Some of you think that you\u2019re no different from the Rosenberg. What he\u2019s saying<\/i> is that that happens any time a person goes to trial for anything<\/i>. The prosecution\u2019s got the advantage to put you behind bars, because your attorney cannot know the background of the jurors. They can\u2019t have\u2014 They\u2019re\u2014 They don\u2019t have available to them FBI files and computer files and police files, they don\u2019t have that available. (Pause) All right, young lady, very good. (Unintelligible word) Next. Next. (Pause) (Sighs) Wish this temperature would go down. (Reads questions) Why do you think that all the demonstrations\u2014 No no no no. What were some of the holes in the government\u2019s case against the Rosenbergs?<\/p>\n

No reply.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Some of the holes. (Pause) In the government\u2019s case against the Rosenbergs.<\/p>\n

Young woman: <\/b>I know it\u2019s supposed to be there on the fifth. They weren\u2019t really there. They were there on the sixth, and it was fourth. (Pause) Um.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I wish you people would do me one thing. I\u2019ve asked it uh, for\u2014 over and again. You have to me\u2014\u00a0You must<\/i> think I\u2019m a walking computer, to give me these goddamn questions and I do not have answers for \u2018em. But I happen<\/i> to know the answers on the questions. I think it\u2019s grossly unfair, and I hope I don\u2019t have to say it again. I made a distress call to someone yesterday. I could capsulize it quickly, and I wouldn\u2019t have to take up people\u2019s time, trying to get it out of my memory. \u2018S very important. Now. What is it\u2014 what\u2014 oh, I\u2019ve mentioned it so many times, I\u2019m sick of talking about it. Go ahead.<\/p>\n

Man in crowd: <\/b>The thing was\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Now wait wait wait. I want to hear her.<\/p>\n

Young woman: <\/b>There was uh\u2014 besides that, there was uh\u2014 a lot was um, depending upon a Jello package, which uh, (Jones talks over her) brother\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> What\u2019s the hole? What\u2019s the hole?<\/p>\n

Reply of man too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> A hole. I mean, like a hole in the\u2014 uh, like a hole<\/i> in the fabric<\/i>, where you can see through. The light of truth shining through<\/i>, showing that uh\u2014 the prosecution, the government was lying. I mean, it\u2014\u00a0framing them. What\u2014 what were some of the holes? (Pause) How many know<\/i> \u2018em out there? (Sighs)<\/p>\n

Replies too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Tsk, tsk, tsk. Oh, Jesus, this is discouraging. (More emphatic) This is discouraging. (Pause) There\u2019s equal amounts of seniors as there are youth. And one thing I\u2019m going to say, some of you goddamn teenagers, preteen, you don\u2019t know shit. (Pause) Just after that junior high level, ah, up to the end of the secondary, you don\u2019t know shit. I don\u2019t see a hand. You never wake up. Where in the fuck are you?<\/p>\n

Replies too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> They had the Rosenbergs for 12 days, yes. Ought to be answers to the place. (Pause) You better correct that shit, or there won\u2019t be no tomorrow for you. You want to hold on to your jive-ass romance and your jive-ass music, and all that shit, well you won\u2019t be able to play that jive-ass music when radiation\u2019s killing us off, or somebody else, mercenaries, \u2018cause you lower your resistance \u2014\u00a0and that\u2019s the way you lower it, by not learning socialism \u2014\u00a0something\u2019s going to happen to you, someplace. (Pause) I\u2014 I\u2019m ashamed, that some of these youth (stumbles for words) don\u2019t make\u2014 you got the mind<\/i>. Difficult for people, (unintelligible word) even middle years, it becomes difficult, but by God<\/i>, when seniors can have four or five hands, and not see certain lay\u2014 age groups, it makes me very, very upset. You know any of the holes here. You\u2019re a good worker. No reflection on your work, but I\u2019m going to have to go with\u2014\u00a0(Jones and woman talking over each other)<\/p>\n

Young woman: <\/b>No, Dad, I\u2019m (unintelligible word) thinking. I\u2019m sorry I missed it.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Okay, I\u2019ll just step on\u2014\u00a0What\u2014\u00a0You know some of the holes in the case.<\/p>\n

Young woman: <\/b>Um, all I can think of is more than like, um, they didn\u2019t have no evidence against them.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, honey. They didn\u2019t have any evidence<\/i>. But what is it? Would you give me more than that, darling? What\u2014\u00a0what is the thing they didn\u2019t have any evidence about? (Pause) (sighs) I\u2014 I\u2019ll have to go to the next\u2014<\/p>\n

Young woman: <\/b>Um\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I don\u2019t like to do this, (unintelligible word), there\u2019re not the best test, but we\u2014 why are we tested this way. We don\u2019t have any paper. Didn\u2019t get any on the shipment. That\u2019s why we\u2019re doing it. It\u2019ll be in by Tuesday, for a test then, but none now. (Pause) What (unintelligible word), what is it?<\/p>\n

New woman: <\/b>Um\u2014 one thing, they didn\u2019t have enough information about the atomic bomb, or something like that.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes? (Pause) It wasn\u2019t about the atomic bomb in the first place. (Pause) It was about uh, (unintelligible word \u2014 land? Lem?). And it was a superficial drawing.<\/p>\n

New woman: <\/b>Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> So that\u2019s true.<\/p>\n

New woman: <\/b>Um\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Give me, uh\u2014 you\u2014\u00a0you barely skidded through. (Unintelligible word) \u2014on by. Now, what more? You know anything more about it?<\/p>\n

New woman: <\/b>No.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Why? (Sudden outburst) I say, why? Don\u2019t give me no shrug of shoulder. (Mike cuts off for several seconds) \u2014you gone kill us. So don\u2019t me no fuckin\u2019 shoulder. I don\u2019t mean you personally. So don\u2019t you\u2014 don\u2019t you come back at me like that. (Shouts) You should know, and you should feel ashamed that you don\u2019t know. You\u2019re young. Capable. Bright. You should know. (Pause) So don\u2019t you be humble. Not me.<\/p>\n

Reply of woman from crowd too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Upset) You goddamn better say something. What did you get out of the Rhode\u2014 (stumbles for word) Rosenberg case? (Shouts) What your hell is our future in? Where in the hell is our future? Whose hand is it in? Why are you doing, you killers of the office? You kill, because you won\u2019t learn. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Reply of woman from crowd too soft.<\/p>\n

Young woman: <\/b>No.<\/p>\n

Crowd woman: <\/b>Well, answer it, you can say something, there must have been something in the film that (fades out)\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Low and upset) I\u2019m feverish, child. I\u2019m just feverish. Very high in fever. I don\u2019t dislike you, I\u2019d lay my life down for you. But this is a frustration. Intellectually, I\u2019m not trying to tell you, I\u2019m not frustrated by what I see. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Man in crowd: <\/b>And the thing about it, you\u2019re a young (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Talks over man) Oh, for\u2014 forget it.<\/p>\n

Man in crowd: <\/b>\u2014confronting or not, you\u2019re not Dad.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Shouts) There never will, because there many of them as ignorant as Al Shit (unintelligible name), they\u2019re so caught up in capitalism, they\u2019re selling them out, and they\u2019re murdering me.<\/i><\/p>\n

Crowd: <\/b>That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

Reply of woman from crowd too soft.<\/p>\n

Young woman: <\/b>(Plaintive) I didn\u2019t understand it.<\/p>\n

Man: <\/b>Well, when he explained to you\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (mike cuts back on him, with unintelligible word fragment) (shouts) \u2014\u00a0did you ask your neighbor, the person (unintelligible word) say, I didn\u2019t understand it? Did you tell me one time? Did you raise your hand one time? Hell, no. (low voice) Don\u2019t give me that shit.<\/p>\n

Man: <\/b>You were in socialism class, you were in socialism class yesterday, and everybody in socialism class discussed it.<\/p>\n

Several voices interrupt.<\/p>\n

Man: <\/b>Who was the president? Who was the president? Who was the president during the time this\u2014\u00a0all this happened? What was the president\u2019s name? What year? What\u2014 what\u2014what\u2014 what Congressman was running around acting\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Interrupts) Next. We can\u2019t go\u2014 Next, we can\u2019t go, give any more bay (?). We\u2019ve been black and white, we\u2019ve been equal with up here. Come on.<\/p>\n

Crowd discussion too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Shouts) She shouldn\u2019t be in a bakery. She should be at the very foot of learning in every department. She should be educating herself. She should not be in a bakery.<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Young man: <\/b>One thing, they didn\u2019t have no, no information. They didn\u2019t\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Interrupts) I didn\u2019t tell him. I would not<\/i> tell anybody to go into the bakery. They can\u2014Somebody else can substitute. That child\u2019s going back to school. She ought to send\u2014 spend some time. In school. I will not let ignoramuses grow up, and we let you out. And ignoramus doesn\u2019t mean anything. That means you\u2019re just not getting intell\u2014 the information, and you\u2019re intelligent enough to<\/i> get that information. But I\u2019ll be goddamned if we\u2019re going to let people quit school like, to have them ignore classes and don\u2019t know one thing about Rosenbergs<\/i>? Nuh-unh. Nuh-unh. No way. (Pause) Son, do you know any holes that were in the case?<\/p>\n

Young man: <\/b>Um. One thing they had, they had little pieces of information that didn\u2019t hardly even fit together and um, like, um, they used little things like, they\u2014 they didn\u2019t even know if the um, Rosen\u2014 the Rosenbergs didn\u2019t really do it, like, they\u2014 they weren\u2019t giving out no information in the, in the um, the um, the um, the courts tried to use it against them, they saying that they was using all\u2014\u00a0all kinds of little stuff, putting all kinds of little stuff together, trying to\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Okay, now, that\u2014 that\u2019s good, now I\u2019ll let you by, I let somebody else by that shouldn\u2019t have got by with this, on this question, about as simply. (Unintelligible) I\u2019ll let you by. (Unintelligible) And you said it much more articulately. Okay. But here<\/i> is what. Major, a major thing in the course that Chaikin pointed out, then the fact that co\u2014 few co\u2014 in England<\/i>, the scientist<\/i> that was framed<\/i>, by most reports today \u2014 that\u2019s what press has admitted in, in England \u2014\u00a0he wasn\u2019t even a spy<\/i>. He wasn\u2019t\u2014\u00a0he was a political scapegoat in England<\/i>. And they tried to say that he had met with Harry Gold. And finally said, if you insist<\/i> that I had met with Harry Gold, I guess it\u2019ll just have to be Harry Gold, but I never met<\/i> with him. So there could have been no conspiracy, \u2018cause Fuchs is the one who supposed to gotten the heavy information, the spy information, with\u2014 went through Fuchs, Professor Fuchs, a scientist, a physicist in England who was being bla\u2014\u00a0whitemailed<\/a> for homosexual reasons, they said, and then he<\/i> in turn sent it on to Soviet Union. So if he<\/i> didn\u2019t know hi\u2014the\u00a0contact<\/i> man \u2014 Harry Gold was the contact<\/i> man between the Soviets and USA \u2014 if he\u2014 if Fuchs\u2014\u00a0the contact man\u2014 they built their case on Fuchs being the one that had taken the material, handed it over to him through Harry Gold, and Harry Gold had got it from Julius\u2019 brother, David Greenglass, who sold<\/i> out his own sister. Thought he was going to get off, and the goddamn judge surprised him, give him 15 years. That\u2019s what all finks should take notice. They always call them government witness. What a lovely\u2014 don\u2019t you ever fall for that word, “government wit\u2014 wink\u2014 witness,” that means fink<\/i>. Anybody give state\u2019s evidence against anybody<\/i> in a criminal situation, as uh, Chaikin pointed out, where all\u2014 no black person, no poor white person can get a fair trial, because the prosecution has an advantage from the beginning? (Emphatic) I wouldn\u2019t fink on nobody. That\u2019s my cord\u2014 my cardinal gain. I wouldn\u2019t. I had to see something big<\/i> in the black community which I lived, they said such-and-such on dope, I said, who in the hell is supplying them? Who is the fuck is pushin\u2019 it?<\/p>\n

Voice in crowd too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yeah, where\u2019d it come<\/i> from? From Colombia, an Ambassador, USA, high up, shipping heroin that poison the youth mind, destroy it inch by inch. So I never would report anybody. I had a law. Goddamn, I had a law. Strictly, and I\u2019d go to hell (stumbles for words) in a breadbasket, even if some of these people\u2014 most of the occasions, I risk my life \u2018fore they were guilty as hell. Back there. I mean, they were guilty as hell<\/i>. But I wouldn\u2019t cooperate. I wouldn\u2019t cooperate, because for one thing, I\u2019m a loving and indulgent father, but the primary<\/i> reason was<\/i> that I did not feel that any<\/i> poor white person or black person\u2014 or middle<\/i>-class even\u2014 would get a fair shake in a court of law. You got it, you were damn lucky, that\u2019s all. You had to be crazy like Chris [Lewis] to do it, even then. They\u2019da they\u2019da sent Chris away, I\u2019ll bet you, with all the miracles I did, and the prophecy, but my prophecy musta been based purely and simply \u2014 not on the goddamn court, because it was one hell of a case\u2014 shit, Mae didn\u2019t even have her shit together, she didn\u2019t\u2014 she had mix-up on clothes she wore, there was contradictions in the testimony, our district\u2014 our public\u2014 (stumbles for words) we hired him the best attorney we could find<\/i>, but you coulda shot holes<\/i> through his goddamn case. I<\/i> know what won it, when I packed that courtroom full of you starin\u2019 at the fuckin\u2019 jury.<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Hmm?<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> (Louder) Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes yes yes. You say that\u2019s wrong, to stack<\/i> that (stumbles for words). No<\/i>, it wasn\u2019t wrong. You got every fuckin\u2019 right to go to the courtroom.<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> You don\u2019t have to smile, ain\u2019t no law tells you on the outside, ages to smile. Nobody has any signs<\/i> on the front of the jury room, smile when you come in here, you\u2019re on Candid Camera<\/i>. (Short laugh.) So I had \u2014 remember? Some of you were there \u2014 to pack that goddamn jury room. And they\u2019d watch him. They look, them fuckin\u2019 white boys, (Pause) and they thought, we better let this cat off, \u2018cause that sonofabitch, if\u2014 if he gets in jail, we got 200<\/i> faces out there, I\u2019m\u2014 it\u2019s amazing, we made it as long as we did. I\u2019m telling you, \u2018cause people\u2014 high-ranking people wanted to get Chris out of the way. And I don\u2019t mean just necessarily people who were opposed to socialism. There\u2019s just a whole<\/i> lot of folks didn\u2019t like his dealings, and his dealings were<\/i> rotten. Umm?<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> The Black Liberation Army, he, he happened to shoot the guy he shot in a quarrel over his wife, shot her, shot\u2014 uh, shot him, and he died right there. What. He was the former head of the BLA. Top man of the Black Panthers. Shit. Chris had (stumbles over word)\u2014 Poison followed him like the plague. And the unfortunate problem is, I don\u2019t talk any different about the dead than I do the living. He was always getting me<\/i> in his shit. \u2018Cause I was his dad. And I was tied up in his shit, and my legal staff, tied up in Chris\u2019 shit, till I just didn\u2019t know what in the hell I would do. That\u2019s why I wanted him stay here. Not only that, I knew he was in danger, prophetically, but I wanted him to stay here, because he\u2019s given me loads and loads of trouble through the years. I have been worried to death<\/i> for this man. When he went through this town, he does\u2014 (stumbles for words) there is no sense, you see, to act a fool when you don\u2019t need to. Ain\u2019t no sense to that. On the airplane, he got\u2014 smart-ass somebody at Matthews Ridge at the airplane. Got into Georgetown, I\u2019ll be a sonofabitch if he didn\u2019t tear up three<\/i> hotels, because he was drunk. And that\u2014 that\u2014\u00a0that\u2014 and he<\/i> was connected with us. And I loved him. Loved him. Called every day on that radio, how\u2019s he doing? Our code name. Please keep him in the church. He says, I will, I will, he gets on, talks, I\u2019ll stay there, Dad, I will, I will. He goes out and gets himself set up in the Fillmore. But the reason<\/i> he got set up was not for anything he was doing. It was because Deanna Mertle was terril\u2014\u00a0terribly afraid of him, for the one time in his life that he used threat of violence in a nice way. He lifted up her husband in the supermarket when she was trying to extort us, whitemail us, out of $35,000. He said, now listen, brother, I\u2019ll take of you personally. And you too, bitch. He told her to shut up. Right in broad daylight. That shows how you can get killed in\u2014 in the\u2014 in the cities, and nobody pay any attention. In the broad daylight, he held her aaa\u2014 right up\u2014\u00a0he held old Mertle right up by the nap of his neck, said, I\u2019ll\u2014 I\u2019ll personally\u2014 \u2018cause if it was one thing I could count<\/i> on him\u2014 lot of people I\u2019ve helped, I can\u2019t even count on this<\/i>, \u2018cause Chris is not the only one given me a lot of trouble. Lot of people gonna have a lot of guilt on them when I die. I\u2019m not talking about the socialist. I\u2019m talking about people that rode me through courts, doing their own fuckin\u2019 shit. And they\u2019re not as near<\/i> as humble as they ought to be. Not near<\/i> as cooperative as they ought to be. \u2018Cause they would\u2014 if they had been doing what they supposed to been doing, they\u2019d never been in the trouble. And their fuckin\u2019 arrogant personalities, every time you deal with them, still arrogant. And I\u2019m not\u2014 so you won\u2019t make any ah, judgments (stumbles for words), I wasn\u2019t speaking of Ellihue [Dennis], for instance. He\u2019s the last case. I thought you take uh, think it\u2019d be Ellihue. I\u2019m thinking of somebody else even. (Pause) But Ellihue should (unintelligible word\u2014 probably “probably”) be humble, I\u2014\u00a0goddammit, I knew he\u2019d stole \u2014\u00a0I<\/i> knew he\u2019d done it. Didn\u2019t make no damn difference. I<\/i> knew he\u2019d done it. I knew shit well<\/i> he\u2019d done it. But I said, they ain\u2019t taking my children. That\u2019s a commitment I made years<\/i> ago, they\u2019re not taking my children. And the system\u2019s unfair<\/i>, and I\u2019m not going to let any black m\u2014 young man be throwed in there for ten years, whatever the hell he\u2019da got over that shit. No way. Did it for a young white man too. Not only been black. I don\u2019t know how he\u2019s doing. I haven\u2019t asked him questions. He ought to remind the whole congregation, I hope he\u2019s written up an affidavit. He should. (Pause) Who am I talking about? Paul.<\/p>\n

Crowd: <\/b>Paul.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Paul McCann. \u2018Cause his ass woulda been gone, boy. \u2018Cause if he\u2014 he walked right into hornet\u2019s nest, violating what I told him to do, would never have been there, his ass was in a hornet\u2019s nest. \u2018Cause white folk were saying he was guilty, said he\u2019s the man. White folk don\u2019t even care\u2014 that\u2019s how much prejudice they got, they can\u2019t even tell one hippie<\/i> from another. They cannot tell\u2014 the white folks are so bigoted against the youth, they cannot even tell their own youth<\/i>. He didn\u2019t look<\/i> that hippie-ish. But I\u2019ll be goddamned if three people didn\u2019t say, that he was the one that robbed that store at gunpoint. There ain\u2019t no way<\/i> of telling how many years he coulda got. Got 25, if they want<\/i> to give it to him. So a\u2014 ten-to-fifteen? What is it? Ten-to-fifteen, or ten-to-25? I\u2014 I don\u2019t like to throw numbers around, \u2018cause I don\u2019t know what I\u2019m talking about.<\/p>\n

Voice in crowd too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> He got three counts?<\/p>\n

Voice in crowd too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> And burglary.<\/p>\n

Voice in crowd too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> One-to-ten, at that time, for each one of them. For each\u2014 apiece. For each of three counts. He said that. (Pause) And I don\u2019t know how in the hell\u2014 I<\/i> don\u2019t know. These people working. Lot<\/i> of folk here give me shit that I\u2019ve got out of jail. (Tired tone) Yes, yes yes. Some of your asses, you never think you\u2019re responsible, but you bleed me every day with your damn notes, or you complain about the food, or you\u2019re kickin\u2019 about this and that, you con\u2014 constantly cause me to have problems on my bind (he means “mind”) and body, which I shouldn\u2019t have. And I saved some of your homes, and I saved your asses too. Some of you. You don\u2019t know<\/i> how much I saved your asses.<\/p>\n

Crowd: <\/b>Right. (One woman: “So true.”)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> People don\u2019t like goodness. They have to\u2014 It makes uh, them<\/i> have to be good. If you see goodness in somebody else, what\u2019s it mean? Only one<\/i> simple equation. You gotta be good too. And folk don\u2019t want to be good by nature. Their animal instincts are opposed<\/i> to being good. They want to be like a goddamn bunch of fightin\u2019 wolves on a\u2014\u00a0on a p\u2014\u00a0in a pack. If they wanna\u2014\u00a0they wanna uh, live and rule. They want to dominate. Kill, not and be killed, but kill and not be killed. They want to ryob\u2014 they want to rob, they want to drain, they want to do every shittin\u2019 thing they can. And that\u2019s why, one of the basic premises of Mao\u2014\u00a0What was the basic premise of Mao? (Aside) Young man, you\u2019ve already passed. (Returns to question) What was the basic premise of Mao? Mao Tse-Tung said there\u2019s only one way a revolution can come. Do you know, Millie [Cunningham]? Whup! Hold it, now. How did Mao Tse-Tung say the only way you can bring a revolution and keep it?<\/p>\n

Millie: <\/b>Where you\u2014 onliest way I think you can keep it, by being peace and being honorable.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Tired tone) Oh, shit, I ain\u2019t\u2014 no\u2014\u00a0being at peace\u2014 (Sharply) Mao Tse-Tung said that?<\/p>\n

Millie: <\/b>Oh\u2014<\/p>\n

(Millie and Jones talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> No no no no\u2014<\/p>\n

Millie: <\/b>Wait a minute\u2014 Oh\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> \u2014he\u2019s the head of China. He\u2019s the head of the Revolution of China.<\/p>\n

Millie: <\/b>No, I\u2019m sorry.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> He marched 6000 people (unintelligible) on the Long March.<\/p>\n

Millie: <\/b>I had my mind on something else.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Okay then, wha\u2014\u00a0wha\u2014\u00a0what\u2019d he say? There only one way you can bring about a revolution for people.<\/p>\n

Millie: <\/b>Only way you can\u2014 only way you can bring it on, that by\u2014 is by killing.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, (unintelligible word) yes, that\u2019s okay, I\u2019m going to let you pass it, but what\u2019d he say. He had a nice little phrase that everybody should know. “Change only comes\u2014”<\/p>\n

Millie: <\/b>Oh\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (unintelligible due to overtalking) you got it. ” Change comes through\u2014” (coughs)<\/p>\n

Millie: <\/b>“\u2014through\u2014 by a barrel of gun.”<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> That\u2019s right, senior. And that\u2019s good. \u2018Cause you by rights would have every reason to forget some things. “Change must come through the barrel of gun.” Said Mao Tse-Tung. This place would be a paradise tomorrow if every department had a supervisor with a submachine gun. There\u2019d be no shit here. Right.<\/p>\n

General hubbub. (Only understandable comment is “I don\u2019t have one.”) (Laughter)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Everybody work? We wouldn\u2019t have no trouble.<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> But that\u2019s a shame<\/i>\u2014 But we have a right\u2014\u00a0we have the right to do certain things. The government suggesting we get<\/i> armed so we will<\/i> be able to enforce our laws. Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes. Thank you, dear. You\u2014 you passed.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes, I did. Yes, I did. Took it. Need another one. Probably do. I took blood pressure pills all day yesterday. (Pause) Okay, now, where were we?<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Why do you think\u2014 I, I gave the major hole. What\u2019s some other holes in that Rosenberg case? Do it, please, for me. You\u2019ll know them.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> No no<\/i> no no no, please. I\u2019m talking to my\u2014 to my student there.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Young woman: <\/b>Dad, I didn\u2019t see the movie last night. I was cleared to work on the (Jones talks over her) project.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Oh, then you won\u2019t know it. Then you won\u2019t know it. Okay. (Unintelligible name) you were cleared.<\/p>\n

Young woman: <\/b>Um, I could get some background, I think it would be interesting knowing what was going on in America.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, I, uh, no. Let\u2019s stick with what shit we got. What is the background? What\u2019s going on there? How long\u2019s that going to take? If you give \u2018em more news than I\u2019ve already given, we\u2019ll have uh, they already, some of them, paralyzed.<\/p>\n

Young woman: <\/b>No, I was talking about, during that era and time for the Rosenbergs.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Okay. Quick. Very quickly.<\/p>\n

Young woman: <\/b>United States had not too many years ago lost, lost the war against Russia, the United States and its allies, and so they had not been able to kill communism by force, so they had to do it through a propaganda war, and it was called a Cold War. And that era, that time in history was taking place right when the Rosenbergs had been brought to trial, and it was like a focus point, and it was a scapegoating, it was a focus point\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Interrupts) (Stumbles for words) That\u2019s good enough. You\u2019ve got it\u2014 not without getting it. (Pause) What happened then? They said\u2014 they never could admit that the Soviet Union was as bright as USA. No way. They couldn\u2019t get the bomb, unless somebody stole the\u2014 the secret. So that\u2019s USA. Capitalism is so superior to those bunch of animals living in socialism, that no<\/i> socialist would have enough sense to make a bomb. \u2018Cause America didn\u2019t have any sense without a few Nazis that helped them early in the war. Okay. I mean, there a Nazi in that Chicago university where that first experiment took place. No, it wasn\u2019t Brown, but I\u2019ve forgotten his name. It was a Nazi involved in that goddamn thing in Chicago. University of Chicago where they first split the atom. Because he had\u2014 they had to do it in the scientific lab first.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> What? I, uh, that almost rung a bell\u2014<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> [Robert] Oppenheimer was not a Nazi. I mean Oppenheimer was a conservative<\/i>, but not a Nazi. But they know he had German American Bund background anyway. So, they had to fa\u2014 have a fall guy, and uh, pressure was put on him, and the FBI, come up quick, get us a case, don\u2019t take time, we gotta show that America\u2019s justice system is effective<\/i>, we gotta get some people to hate<\/i>, we gotta show them how bad communists are, that all communists are capable of violence<\/i>, that all communists make\u2014 would sell secrets<\/i>, that all communists would do bad things. So you laid it, that\u2019s good. That\u2019s the foundation for the last hole, I think. All right.<\/p>\n

Young woman: <\/b>I\u2019d like to say, it\u2019s a very close parallel to what happened to us, when they tried to kill us by force through mercenaries that didn\u2019t work, so they started, you know, a propaganda thing, they intensified<\/i> it against us. It didn\u2019t work, you know, physically killing us, so now they try to cut us off from all support. So, without a physical thing, they were trying to do it through propaganda, through the use of the media, through uh, that type of thing.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> \u2014\u00a0lawsuits, and even criminal before they get through. You watch \u2018em. You watch \u2018em.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes, it\u2014 it was no secret. Another thing that was a strange uh, contradiction to me. They weren\u2019t tried under the atomic treaty<\/i> that was supposed to have been tried.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> No no no no.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> The Atomic Energy Act. Yes. Thank you. 1946, I believe. Forty\u2014 yeah, \u201846, forty\u2014 \u201845. \u201845, \u201845, I think you\u2019re right.<\/p>\n

Voice of male: <\/b>We were allies<\/i> with Russia, then, too.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Now that\u2019s a dichotomy, maybe the lawyers can explain that. I didn\u2019t\u2014 \u2018Course, there\u2019s another hole. That damn hotel receipt didn\u2019t uh\u2014\u00a0it wasn\u2019t the same, wasn\u2019t the same, they did an investigation, another couple of authors did an investigation, the stamp on the back was different than the date on the front. So uh, that was bullshit, but it\u2019s strange<\/i> that we were still in\u2014 in alliance psychologically, that even if they could<\/i> stretch the law, that we were in (struggles for words) total alliance with the Soviet Union. They were not<\/i> our enemies, but our friends<\/i>. So we\u2014 they told<\/i> us, until they decided that the USSR, the Soviet Union, was getting too strong<\/i>. They had not\u2014 naturally whip up the Cold War again, because they wanted Russia to be defeated and\u2014 when they set up Hitler\u2019s Germany<\/i>, and they didn\u2019t get it done. So the trial of Rosenbergs was happening\u2014 I mean the uh, the supposed act that they did<\/i> that made them a conspirator, or part of co\u2014 espionage was on the sixth day of June, fifth day of June, or something like that. (Pause) Third\u2014 third. No, there\u2014 there two contradictory days were the third and the fourth. But the war<\/i> with Japan and, and Nazi Germany was not finished<\/i> yet. The alliance between the Soviet Union and Na\u2014 and USA was still strong<\/i>. You understand what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Okay. Okay. What did they do<\/i>, then?<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> How did they legally do that shit? Charge them for espionage when they were, they were\u2014 even if they had<\/i> done it?<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yeah, I ca\u2014 I can know the damn little dirty law that lets them play that shit.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Oh, it says “foreign power.” They ca\u2014 They cover their ass.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Ah, I thank you. USA never really\u2014\u00a0it knows it\u2019ll never have an ally too long, \u2018cause they\u2019re trying to gobble her up, so they can say “foreign power.” That\u2019s nice. (Pause) Their allies change so fast too, over their need for their crime they\u2019re trying to commit at the time.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> No no no no. Please. Nothing else. Thank you. I can\u2019t do it. I can\u2019t do it. I uh, uh\u2014 nobody.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> And where\u2019s the rest of these people now? It\u2019s outrageous.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Unintelligible) Shift please. (Pause) To ah\u2014 on the P.A. system, to come to work. (Pause) Our guests are coming now. Our guests are going to be here. How should we say on the P.A. system, our ca\u2014\u00a0hollering for somebody. Don\u2019t do like you did tonight with guests, somebody over here trying to show themselves to be highly loyal, showed yourself to being a damn fool, say, (goes into harsh mimicry) “Stop. Don\u2019t you hear Dad talking?” (Normal tone) Stupid. The reason you knew what the hell was going on\u2014 I don\u2019t know who<\/i> it was, don\u2019t even give a shit to know, don\u2019t get up here and apologize for it. I just say it was stupid<\/i>. (Struggles for words) You don\u2019t do it ordinarily. Sometimes I think some of these people do act just for conscious trouble. Here they\u2019re just down the dr\u2014\u00a0road. (Harsh mimicry) “Stop.” (Normal tone) I thought, oh, shit. (Harsh mimicry) “Don\u2019t you know Dad talking? Be still.” (Pause) Well, you don\u2019t shout at each other during guests. They won\u2019t see socialism. They\u2019ll be looking for every little flaw, \u2018cause it requires something of them<\/i>. And they all left. They all<\/i> left highly impressed today. Why would you tell over the P.A. system for someone to come to work? Or call \u2018em?<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Do you not have any idea, son?<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Oh w\u2014 w\u2014 w\u2014 wait, I<\/i> didn\u2019t call you. (Pause) And I\u2014<\/p>\n

Voices too soft. Laughter. General hubbub.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Hell, no, I haven\u2019t got an answer here.<\/p>\n

Crowd: <\/b>Laughter. General hubbub.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Co\u2014 come on, come on, come on.<\/p>\n

Young woman: <\/b>Um.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Pause) How would you say if you were going to be dispatching and something, say that, somebody to go to work?<\/p>\n

Young woman: <\/b>Don\u2019t scream over the mike and uh, ask them please and everything.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> That\u2019s it. “Please, come to work.” Even if\u2014 out in the fields. Don\u2019t scream over the mike. Be very low tone. (Pause) \u2018Course some of you better get damn used\u2014 accustomed to walking to get who you want, \u2018cause that sonofabitch ain\u2019t gone be screamin\u2019 all day and all night. (Pause) You\u2014 You know what I\u2019m talkin\u2019 about. There\u2019s a way you can get on there. Somebody get on there this morning, very good person, and I\u2014 (Emphasizes each word) I had barely got my ass to sleep. The one fuckin\u2019 time I was going to get me some s\u2014\u00a0some sleep. It took a hell of a l\u2014 lot of doing on them to get me some sleep. (Sighs) I ain\u2019t going to say (unintelligible phrase). (Blows nose) You can\u2019t get your own people in your own departments without gettin\u2019 on there and screamin\u2019, I\u2019ll be goddamned, you ought to quit it, \u2018cause I\u2019m right under that damn megaphone. \u2018Cause I know<\/i> it can be controlled, because it was<\/i> controlled afterwards. (Blows nose). Don\u2019t act you\u2019re carrying\u2014 taking a dick when you get that microphone in your hand. (Pause) Hmm? Don\u2019t be on a power trip. Hear what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> You ought to assign someone to make the announcements, so they use discretion. That\u2019s a very good idea. Somebody ought to be right there. They ought to be right there on every shift. What?<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Hmm? Huh-uh. Huh-uh.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Administrators come up with some names tonight, \u2018cause it\u2019s\u2014 that\u2019s right, I mean, they won\u2019t be able to, those two are meeting and greeting. We need more greeters. Haven\u2019t got (stumbles for words) goddamn thing (unintelligible). Suitable\u2014 we got some people\u2014 we got\u2014 we just a wrong program, I\u2014\u00a0it dawned on me, I don\u2019t know where in the hell it is, but I\u2019m going to have to look at it. Some of this shit won\u2019t work<\/i>. It may work on paper, but it don\u2019t work when you get the thing going<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Ruby Carroll? Yes, yes. We\u2019ll put her up here for the first question. (Unintelligible name \u2014 sounds like “Matthew Stein”) assign Ruby Carroll to come up there. They right now? (Overdub? Louder Jones voice) \u2014and reporters? And others, uh, you guys have to come up with some more. (Pause) 1:30 PM, you got [San Francisco Sun-Reporter<\/i> publisher Carlton] Goodlett having lunch on (tape breakup) numbers. In the Medical Department, what black person do you think is the most politically knowledgeable? Hmm? All of you, (unintelligible word) stand up and tell, who do you think is the most black, uhh\u2014 the black that\u2019s the most politically knowledgeable.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Anita<\/i>? Well then, by God, if she\u2019s the most politically savvy, she ought to be there with Joyce, right? I think she\u2019s more politically savvy, maybe\u2014\u00a0I don\u2019t think Joyce knows that much about uh, Marxist-Leninism. I\u2014 I doubt, because she\u2019s very busy in the medical chart, uh, department.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Diane Louie? Excellent.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, they don\u2019t have a lot of our practitioners on duty. Diane Louie\u2019s also expertise\u2014\u00a0I don\u2019t like seeing\u2014 not that others aren\u2019t, but I, uh\u2014 Wanda\u2019s in x-ray. I\u2019d rather put Wanda and uh\u2014 (Pause) (unintelligible word) supervisors? Well, can\u2019t they go on and do their goddamn work that day?<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> For an hour? Can\u2019t they do that for an hour?<\/p>\n

One voice: Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Okay, Wanda, and\u2014\u00a0Wanda and Nita and uh\u2014 (Pause) you want a guy\u2019s who a good one? You don\u2019t like Lo\u2014\u00a0oh, I don\u2019t think Goodlett dislikes\u2014\u00a0uh, he, he, he, he does have those other problems, but I don\u2019t think he dislikes\u2014<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Hmm? [Mike] Prokes<\/i> said it. He only talks to women?<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Okay, well, who can\u2014 who\u2019s the males, then? Who\u2019s some new\u2014<\/p>\n

Voices too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, Prokes remem\u2014 Pr\u2014 Prokes is talking about something happenin\u2019 someplace, when uh\u2014 but I feel obliged to make it two and two. So who uh\u2014 it can\u2019t be Johnny [Moss Brown]. Johnny\u2019s got to be out there. He knows how to conduct the tour. Uh, you\u2014 you<\/i> ought to be able to conduct the tour too. But um\u2014 but dealing with the press, that\u2019s something else, even though they\u2019re friendly. Okay, uh, so, uh, no Prokes\u2014 What?<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> He been around Goodlett more than anybody.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, what\u2019s the at\u2014\u00a0people feel about this.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Think he can get him to talk more freely, or talk more, that\u2019s true. Okay, Prokes will be there with Anita and, and uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> \u2014and Hue Fortson\u2014\u00a0Hue Fortson and Prokes and uh, Anita? I think that\u2019d be enough there, wouldn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Voice: <\/b>What\u2019s that?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Okay, put Joyce Parks in there. What\u2019ve we got? Prokes? Joyce Parks? Anita? And Hue. I don\u2019t know on that\u2014 Anita\u2014 Anita has\u2014 we can use Anita for other political knowledge. We better put uh, we better put um, Wanda there. Right? Didn\u2019t you say you all thought she was the mo\u2014\u00a0most informed? Her and Diane Louie? Isn\u2019t that what I heard? Or did I hear it?<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Noises of assent.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Unless you know (vote?) otherwise, I\u2014 you, uh\u2014 you\u2019ve agreed with that. You\u2014\u00a0you fuckin\u2019 people who won\u2019t vote, you have just voted. So if\u2014 if somebody\u2014 hurt feelings come, you just voted, \u2018cause you didn\u2019t stand up to say something else, right? So everyone\u2014 anybody gets offended, and this shit always cause somebody offended, any nursing person didn\u2019t stand up right now, you just voted with us, right?<\/p>\n

Crowd: <\/b>Right. That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> You voted that Diane Louie and Wanda\u2014\u00a0and uh, Anita Darrell, uh, Anita Devress, was the two most politically informed in the medical department. Right?<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> All right. Now let\u2019s don\u2019t see (mimicry) “I didn\u2019t know nothing about the goddamn vote.” (Normal, but sharp, tone) You do, you son of a bitch, I just told you.<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Laughter.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Those who don\u2019t vote are more<\/i> upsetting to me than those who vote against me. Far, far more. Because I can tap what the hell, uh, something will stimulate me out of every negative vote. Maybe that they\u2019re wrong. Maybe they\u2019re biased. Maybe they hate my guts. But I can get something out of them. But you don\u2019t get nothing out of Mr. In-Between. Fuck<\/i> Mr. In-Between. I\u2019ll talk your religious shit now. He said, I\u2019ll have you hot or cold. The lukewarm, the in-between, I spew out of my mouth.<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Hmm?<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> He\u2019s a major fault we have here. (Pause) Okay, Ruby, I\u2019ve got to give her a question, or two. People have gotta go fast, so. (Pause) What is US women\u2019s lib up to now, liberation? They\u2019re demanding uh, something\u2014<\/p>\n

Ruby: <\/b>Uh, they\u2019re de\u2014\u00a0demanding uh, the backing of Patty Hearst and getting her out of jail.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes, yes. Sickening. That\u2019s all the cause they can get. Very well. Demanding the release of Patricia Hearst. That\u2019s a fine thing for the women\u2019s liberation movement to take up. (More strident tone) What about all the goddamn poor people and black people been framed? The bitch was caught<\/i> with the machine gun.<\/p>\n

One voice: <\/b>That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Piss on \u2018em. Piss on her. Piss on her and her goddamned daddy and her great-damned-daddy, too. You pass. (Unintelligible word)<\/p>\n

Thank you.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> What\u2019s happening with Jame\u2014 oh shit, I told you about that. (Pause) What\u2019s happening with Christina Onessis\u2014 Onesis\u2014 Onessis? Onassis Onassis. Orbassis. I don\u2019t give a shit. O-n-a-s-s-i-s. That\u2019s what I do anymore, I just spell it (laughs) and leave it up to you. (laughs)<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>She married\u2014 She\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> You hear me on the radio, I just say, duh-duh-duh-duh, then ah, shit. I\u2019m not\u2014 I never was very good at that. I know my faults. Least, some of them. (Pause) I may pronounce it one way one day (laughter in voice) and another the next day, so shit, I just\u2014 (unintelligible) and you can worry with it. (Laughs) (Calls out) Go ahead. Christine Onassis is\u2014 her\u2014 she did something that kinda\u2014\u00a0well, whatever. What is\u2014 What\u2019d she do?<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>She was the heir\u2014 She\u2019s the heir to her uh, dad\u2019s estate, and\u2014 which is in millions of dollars, she married a\u2014 (Jones cuts her off)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> The world\u2019s<\/i> richest man, second only to the Shah<\/i> of Iran, and the Saud<\/i> of Arabia.<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>She\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> That\u2019s rich.<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> That\u2019s rich. What did she do? What did that bitch do, that sweet bitch? Oh, I love her.<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>(Laughs) She married a socialist and um\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> She married more than a socialist, honey\u2014<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>\u2014from\u2014\u00a0from (Jones talks over her)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Hey, she married a\u2014 she married a communist labor organizer, and uh\u2014 where\u2019d he work?<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> He\u2019s a shipping dock worker. And what\u2019d he do that you can do under socialist law?<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>He took on her name.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> He took on her<\/i> name.<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>Which makes him\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> \u2014make him the direct heir, and then they\u2014 all the capitalist press saying, “Oh, she left. She can\u2019t stand the Soviet si\u2014” That Voice of America just raising hell. She left only that one day, that shows you how bad conditions are in Moscow. She was going to Greece long enough to sign every<\/i> fuckin\u2019 over thing to him, and went back to her little apartment in Moscow. Ha ha!<\/p>\n

Laughter. Applause<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> That\u2019s so lovely. That just kills\u2014 That is the\u2014 that\u2019s\u2014 I think that\u2019s the best thing that ever<\/i> happened to us in a long time, to see\u2014 the biggest richest man, used to hate communism, used to try to stop it with money, he\u2019d do everything in his power. Real fascist that married President Kennedy\u2019s former wife. And she didn\u2019t get the goddamn money, I\u2019m glad she didn\u2019t get the fuckin\u2019 money. She fought in the court with Christine, his daughter, but Christine\u2019s the one that won. And by God, she got the\u2014 billions<\/i>, not millions. Billions. In shipping and related industries, and unrelated industries. Newspapers, television, shit. And there\u2019s a little communist\u2014 little communist dock<\/i> worker that owns it, in Moscow. I\u2019ll bet that almost caused the Pentagon to go mad.<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Laughter.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> You\u2019re\u2014 you\u2019re free.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yeah, Onassis, ah shit, he\u2014 he probably\u2014 he\u2019s probably in hell screaming right now.<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Laughter.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> It\u2019s bad enough to go to hell, now they got a\u2014 I got to stand here and watch these sonabitches turn my money over to a communist. (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Laughter.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I hope he\u2019s immortal somewhere. I hope that fucker\u2019s looking. (Pause) He\u2019ll probably wake up as a flea on one of their dogs over there in the apartment. So he has to watch every shittin\u2019 thing they do.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yeah, Sara said she\u2019d like to see what Jackie Kennedy looks like right now. Their darling. (More serious) Okay, we got Goodlett taken care of, 10 a.m., uh, and he goes\u2014 shit, I don\u2019t know what\u2019s happening here. The reporters on tour? Who\u2019s going to lead this tour? Who\u2019s gone\u2014 who\u2019s gone lead that tour? I\u2019m<\/i> going to have to lead that tour, it looks like.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I can\u2019t\u2014 I can\u2019t talk<\/i> with Goodlett then. I\u2019ll have to talk with Goodlett in the afternoon, I guess. \u2018Cause you\u2019re right, darling, there\u2019s a problem<\/i>. How\u2014\u00a0when in the hell am I going to talk with Goodlett? He come down here to see me<\/i>. If I don\u2019t give him some attention, going to be (stretches out word) trouble. You people going to have to get your shit together, though, making that tour. Who gonna (mike cuts off for end of sentence)\u2014<\/p>\n

2nd woman: <\/b>Johnny can lead the tour.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Johnny can lead the tour.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Unintelligible word)<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Got to have somebody like Chaikin, \u2018cause he\u2019s attorney. But he loves uh\u2014 farming, and loves Guyana, black country, more. He knows knowledge of things. Don\u2019t go further than you need\u2014 Jack Barron can also be knowledgeable, but he should not take the lead. On certain technical questions, he sums up very well. The agronomist, Russell [Moton], you are too soft-spoken, brother. I wish um, somebody would put a boot in your ass, so you uh\u2014 so you would talk<\/i>, \u2018cause you talk sense, but ah, when I said, you\u2014 you\u2019re the agronomist, I could say, he\u2019s the agronomist, you mumble<\/i>. By God, you got\u2014 when you got 17 people, you gotta raise\u2014 project your voice. And you never<\/i> sound like a fool, Russell. Maybe you\u2019re afraid you\u2019ll hurt the cause. You\u2019d never<\/i> sound like a fool. You always come off with professional polish. But you\u2019re gonna have to bark<\/i> it out here. I\u2019m not calling you down on this, I\u2019m just telling you what you\u2019re gonna have to do. Hear what I\u2019m saying? Okay. Then you gotta get \u2018em to\u2014 uh, Grubbs and um, ah, Grubbs\u2019ll have to brag on what ought to be, Grubbs brag on the black principal, and she brag on him. See what I\u2019m saying. And be sure to point out that neither one of you are married. To each other, I mean. (Pause) You hear what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Crowd: <\/b>Yes.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> There\u2019s a lot of things (unintelligible phrase) \u2018cause you know what the hell you\u2019re doing. And the herbs\u2014 Now, I don\u2019t want to hear on the herbs about a bunch of goddamn weeds, that you don\u2019t know shit from Shinola whether they would heal (struggles for words) that you don\u2019t know what the hell<\/i> they do. And you people talk like it\u2019s law and gospel about some of this shit. John Harris? John Harris got poise. He\u2014 he has that poise, to report it. He does have it. John Harris would be good. And he\u2019s\u2014 he\u2019s a uh, he\u2014 he works in the, in chemistry. He works in chemistry \u2018cause of Yuell there. He studies her animal. He\u2019s had a lot of vet uh, hut uh, what is\u2014 hu, husbandry science?<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Pathology, okay. But (tape turned off for moment) you had\u2014 you did your college work in pathology. That\u2019s the thing. You don\u2019t have to give me any details. But you do autopsies to determine what caused the death for our an\u2014 animals, we\u2019ve cleared up a lo\u2014 lot of things. You work along with the agronomist and the medical doctor at times to study funguses and so forth. You hear what I\u2019m saying? Who else going to be on that, uh, that tour?<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I guess I\u2019m gonna have to be there, to talk with uh\u2014 \u2018cause a press conference comes with me at 1:30.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> School people what?<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> No, they don\u2019t have to be on that\u2014 no no no no no. I just mean\u2014 you ought\u2014\u00a0you ought to have their displays, and they\u2014 when they see people moving their way, you\u2019re going to have to move over. You hear? Okay. I think it was funny\u2014\u00a0fuckin\u2019 funny if people shut down your school and everything and uh, have all your teachers and your principals or somebody running around. I think\u2014\u00a0I think that somebody knows that\u2019s something weird. Anybody else? Sara is administering, isn\u2019t she?<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> And, uh\u2014 Carolyn?<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> What\u2019s that? Lee\u2019s there. Okay. I don\u2019t know, there\u2019s probably some others I missed. You\u2014 I\u2019m not going over the list, though. I don\u2019t have them all.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> At 1:30, the reporters\u2019 press conference. I want my attorney, Chaikin, standing by my side. Just in case, something needs to be said. \u2018Cause you never know. You never know. You never know who\u2019s in CIA, and what the fuck they\u2019re up to. Lawyer, and, and Sara ought to be there, too, \u2018cause\u2014\u00a0although we can\u2019t uh, portray her as a lawyer\u2014 oh well, we can, can, but just say, this is my attorney. No, no, she\u2019s a lawyer. She, she finished law school. She\u2019s a lawyer. But uh, we, this is by my lawyer, I can\u2019t say that the\u2014\u00a0she is my lawyer<\/i>. And\u2014 when she practices, that\u2019s different. Here she\u2019s teaching, isn\u2019t she, in, in farm management. I wouldn\u2019t\u2014 unless you know all the ins and outs of the\u2014 I wouldn\u2019t talk too much about your role as farm administrator if you don\u2019t feel comfortable in that. Hear? I\u2019d let Chaikin and um\u2014 I\u2019d let Chaikin and uh, Johnny and uh\u2014 he said Harris, yes, but uh, the agronomist uh, should be Moton. They should take the initiative. People on the farm. So\u2014 also Jan Wilsey. An Amerindian. Gotta speak out. Hear? You gotta be around, so we can get people who want to talk about that road. Ought to have been someone there today. I can\u2019t explain the damn thing. I did the best I could. They were fascinated. I told \u2018em it\u2019s rocks underneath the wood, we were going to make tiers and then later put (unintelligible word). I suppose<\/i> that\u2019s what we\u2014 what the hell we\u2019re going to do. But things have a way of changing<\/i>, depending upon what kind of obstacles<\/i> you run into. So you, you\u2014 I need an engineer on the hand, you see. Some place in the tour. When I crossed that muddy field, to take them through that<\/i> part, I want them there<\/i>. I want\u2014\u00a0Who in the hell is going to be talking for tool and die, and bring in all the stuff I said? You heard what I said on the tape, didn\u2019t you?<\/p>\n

Voices in crowd: <\/b>Yes.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, then, point it out. And see that Diane\u2019s pointed out. And point out all the people that\u2014 that\u2014 that suffered under racism back there. That\u2019s our reason for moving. Racism. You got a lot of people here. Say, there\u2019ve been seniors that have served\u2014\u00a0they were whipped. You\u2014 they didn\u2019t know slavery. They lived under slavery. You hear what I\u2019m saying? One hundred and seven year old lived<\/i> under it. People here have been beat on, like our man shot innocently by a police back there with his hat. Blackwell, isn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n

Voices in crowd: <\/b>Gordon Lockett.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Huh?<\/p>\n

Voices in crowd: <\/b>Gordon Lockett.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Gordon Lockett. I know more about faith, because that\u2019s what a person who loves has to dese\u2014 determine, to help people with what\u2019s wrong with them rather than their name. It\u2019s superficial to know their names and nothing about people, but we ought to be able to do both, but I don\u2019t seem to handle it at 45, 46, 47, whatever the fuck it is, I<\/i> don\u2019t even know. So\u2014 he should be\u2014 what\u2019s his name?<\/p>\n

Voices in crowd: <\/b>Gordon Lockett.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Oh, Gordon, Lockett, yes. Okay. Uh, you should refer to, here is a man, shot in cold blood by the police, tore away his leg. Bernice Thomas, beat up, the only thing that saved her was other prisoners stepping in, beaten by police. Innocent women had their homes broken into. People here who had to see their families lynched, like, uh, talking about a sister here, you can point out. Had to see their families lynched, and they wouldn\u2019t dare look, or the same thing would happen to them. They made them walk by the tree while they hung on the tree. Being hung by the rope. You understand what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Voices too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> None of these stories (unintelligible) so you can in, so you can whip in the racist sentiment. That\u2019s<\/i> one thing they can understand. And then urban pressures, crime\u2014 you can\u2019t walk to a bank, get your Social Security check cashed, you understand? All you got your own money, you understand what I\u2019m saying about? And you could\u2014\u00a0you couldn\u2019t\u2014 you didn\u2019t need to go with peace. Did you go with peace anytime you went? Said a number of our people were mugged. Pollution, don\u2019t have it. Good food. Every kind of food every day. Name the meats and fruits and so forth. Say we have meat every day, fruit, fruit\u2014<\/p>\n

End of tape.<\/p>\n

Tape originally posted May 1999<\/b><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you. To return to the Tape Index, click here. To read the Tape Summary, click here. Listen to MP3 (Pt. 1, Pt. 2, Pt. 3, Pt. 4). Jones: (tape comes on in mid-sentence)\u2014\u00a0any light in here, folks. […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":6,"featured_media":0,"parent":27291,"menu_order":109,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-27392","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27392","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/6"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=27392"}],"version-history":[{"count":13,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27392\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":123285,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27392\/revisions\/123285"}],"up":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27291"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=27392"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}