{"id":27486,"date":"2013-06-16T00:20:33","date_gmt":"2013-06-16T00:20:33","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/alternativejonestown.com\/?page_id=27486"},"modified":"2018-02-13T11:15:22","modified_gmt":"2018-02-13T19:15:22","slug":"q601","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=27486","title":{"rendered":"Q601 Transcript"},"content":{"rendered":"

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.<\/strong><\/i><\/p>\n

To return to the Tape Index, click here<\/a>.
\nTo read the Tape Summary, click here<\/a>. Listen to MP3 (Pt. 1<\/a>, Pt. 2<\/a>).<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Speaks deliberately, slowly, dispassionately) \u2014didn\u2019t you have some other matters, there was something about learning or request so we can get it taken care of? We had a very disorganized (Pause) affair<\/i> here these past few days, with White Nights.<\/p>\n

Voice off mike too quiet.<\/p>\n

Tape cuts off for undetermined period of time.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> It seems (tape break-up) capable of um, the most (tape break-up). Absolutely groundless, involving Tim. (tape break-up). There was nothing whatsoever to your allegations. It all started<\/i> by your demand on our radio that you talk in the middle of our criseses, that you going to have to talk to Shanda [Oliver], and apparently she has made some decision contrary to even our counsel that uh, she wants to call it quits. Now\u2014 (Pause) And I can understand that, by reading this kind of tripe that you put out. This is uh, this is ridiculous. Where have you been all, all your days, son? Where\u2019ve you been? This is juvenile<\/i>. This, this letter is just filled with all kinds of juvenile shit. (Pause) I don\u2019t think we have to re\u2014 I don\u2019t think we have to review<\/i> it all (Pause), what you and Tim have been doing, and so forth and so on. There been (unintelligible word) nothing. (Pause) Absolutely nothing. But what were you<\/i> doing? You see, then you<\/i> open the cauldron, and we started looking. And we find Karen Lendo says that you and he\u2014 she have been doing considerable<\/i>. (Pause) You were projecting\u2014 You were projecting on others what you were doing yourself.<\/p>\n

Bruce Oliver:<\/b> (tapes cuts in) \u2014(unintelligible word) Dad.<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>But why would you, why would you personally, Bruce? You know. A guy who knew Tim, you\u2014 you\u2019ve run with Tim a little bit, uh, you\u2019re friends with him, why<\/i> would you try to put a, a bad light on him?<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>Uh, I w\u2014 uh\u2014 it was just\u2014 it was my paranoid that uh, what people were\u2014 were telling me when I was in Georgetown, and\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I checked that<\/i> out. I read your letter, I took it, checked it with Ava, um\u2014\u00a0she didn\u2019t, she didn\u2019t uh, say<\/i> what you said she said. I checked uh, everythi\u2014\u00a0every fact that you said here. Apparently, you, uh\u2014\u00a0and then I called um, on the floor, Shawnterri [Hall, better known as Teresa Cordell], and uh, Shawntiki [Johnson], rather, Shawntiki, and uh, Kim Yoon Ai, and they<\/i> both denied it.<\/p>\n

One or two voices, too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, there\u2014<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>Right there, speak up, come on.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> I know when, um, you was pissed off \u2018cause you had to stay there two weeks, and you wanted me<\/i> to reassure Shanda that you was still with her on that, and I said\u2014 someone came over with the rumors back about Shanda and Tim, and I said, everybody going by the mover\u2014\u00a0rumors, they are so old th\u2014 and the reason why he was pissed off \u2018cause Shanda didn\u2019t tell you about \u2018em, and the reason Shanda didn\u2019t tell<\/i> you about them, because they were\u2014 it wasn\u2019t really the truth. And then you\u2014 in your letter, you just\u2014 you know, I think you exaggerate<\/i> a little about me.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> A little bit? Now, wait now, hold it. Now hold it.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> I mean, a lot.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Hold it. You\u2014 you people said uh\u2014 you denied it all.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> I did<\/i>, I\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> You denied every bit of it.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> I am.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, \u2018cause I, I want, uh\u2014 But I do clearly<\/i> remember that. He\u2019s done enough, from what I heard from your brother. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Bill Oliver: <\/b>Uh, uh, first, first of all, I want, I want to say to you\u2014\u00a0look at me, blood \u2014 is, I, I lost a lot of disrespect for you at the time when\u2014 remember we moved to the (unintelligible word) and I was going with Angela, and I went home, and you went upstairs after the party and you starting kissing on lady, you told me you fucked her, I lost a lot of disrespect then. But that\u2019s secondary. First of all, I didn\u2019t think, I didn\u2019t think it was right<\/i> for you to put Dad through the shit after he\u2019s going through shit with our parents, so-called parents, you put him through that kind of shit, (struggles for words)\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (slows down throughout sentence) Hold it, hold it, no, hold it, hold it, hold it, hold it, hold it, hold it, hold it, hold it.<\/p>\n

People in crowd: <\/b>Get up, Bruce, get up.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I don\u2019t believe that one now. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Male in crowd: <\/b>(unintelligible sentence). Don\u2019t anybody strike a blow unless you are instructed<\/i> to. (Pause) Nobody.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Unintelligible\u2014\u00a0sounds like “Get some coke on.”)<\/p>\n

Bill:<\/b> Can I say something Dad? First of all, you, you should have never put Dad through fuckin\u2019 shit\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Now don\u2019t do that no more.<\/p>\n

Several people talk.<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>\u2014 but don\u2019t touch.<\/p>\n

Bill:<\/b> First, first of all, you should have never put Dad through the shit, after fuckin\u2019 shit our parents is causing us, and you shoulda\u2014 you shoulda been in Georgetown working<\/i> instead of\u2014 (Pause) instead of fuckin\u2019 around.<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>When I was in Georgetown, I was<\/i> workin\u2019.<\/p>\n

Bill:<\/b> But still, you shouldna said\u2014<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>Bill, (unintelligible) you got things to say, but (Pause)<\/p>\n

Bill:<\/b> I said, you you you you shouldna put Dad through that fuckin\u2019 shit, blood, like uh, demanding to see Shanda when we in cri\u2014 Hold it.<\/p>\n

Someone tries to interrupt.<\/p>\n

Bill:<\/b> Shut up! Huh? Or demanding to see Shanda when we lookin\u2019\u2014 when we in a crisis situation. See, that\u2019s why your fuckin\u2019 ass gone lose\u2014 you lost her, \u2018cause you so fuckin\u2019 insecure, how the fuckin\u2019 bitch has been your mother-fuckin\u2019 first all the time. All them bitches that you told me that being your mother-fu\u2014 for you are the cause him to call him up, because they responsible for your shit, instead of being there workin\u2019. You know?<\/p>\n

Male:<\/b> That\u2019s true. Every\u2014 everything he said is true, but (mike cuts off)<\/p>\n

Voices compete.<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>(Stutters) I did\u2014 I did the bad (unintelligible word) And Ki\u2014 And Kim did tell me that there was rumors going on and that, and that\u2014 that, that we were supposed to be breaking up and she was supposed to be going with Tim and then Shawntiki, Shawntiki did<\/i> tell me that uh, uh, she heard that we were supposed to be breaking up too. It was all juvenile, but\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> It was obviously<\/i> juvenile. Sandy had uh, some other consensual (Unintelligible word\u2014\u00a0 sounds like “arrangement”). He<\/i> has an entirely different arrangement. There was no\u2014 There was nothing there. If you\u2019d been very observant and so totally uh, not caught up in your paranoia, you\u2019da found out the facts.<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/b> (Fades in from off mike) \u2014what right did you have to really be (tape breakup) \u2014 right do you have to hold any strings to her anyway<\/i>, when you<\/i> were fuckin\u2019 around. What right do you have to b\u2014 have one standard for her and something else for you.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Don\u2019t shout. Don\u2019t\u2014 don\u2019t shout. Don\u2019t shout out. Don\u2019t shout out. There\u2019s an audience.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> Bruce, you really got your butt\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Can somebody get us something wet? Uh, go ahead.<\/p>\n

Shanda:<\/b> (Emotional) Bruce, I am sick and tired of, every time, even if I pass by Tim, if I look at him, you got something to say, I\u2019m always messing around with him. And you, all the goddamn time, you (grunts in rage)\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> No, no, I said (stumbles for words) pop it now. Just stop it now. The damn people, stop this popping.<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>(unintelligible) \u2014that\u2019s not what you guys\u2019re up there for. And nobody touch\u2014\u00a0and listen, listen, listen, listen. Come on, now. Wait. Hold it. Hold it.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Now, no more popping. I mean, no popping. (Speaks each word deliberately) No. More. Popping.<\/p>\n

Voices in audience too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I\u2019m telling you folks.<\/p>\n

Male in crowd:<\/b> \u2014control yourself.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Now you know we got, we got, we\u2014 he may deserve<\/i> his popping. You got Soviet guests here. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Shanda:<\/b> (Near tears) I\u2019m sorry. But Bruce, all this fuckin\u2019 time, you talkin\u2019 about, you so\u2014 you so true, and I\u2019m<\/i> the one messin\u2019 around, and you messin\u2019 around with Karen. (Pause) I mean, you really got\u2014 you are\u2014 you are so beyond the low, I don\u2019t see how lower\u2014 you can\u2019t get any lower. You\u2014 Mr. Good, you never come off bad. Your whole life<\/i> is phony. You need to get serious, and, and\u2014\u00a0second, that, that\u2019s secondary, but the first thing, it is<\/i> with your mom. If you woulda known when he was going through out here, then maybe you woulda been a little more considerate about\u2014 about the shit we\u2014 about everything. Fuck it, \u2018cause it\u2019s over<\/i> with me and you. I want you to know<\/i> that. You, Mr. Saint and Mr. Gettin\u2019 and Fuckin\u2019, I\u2019m\u2014\u00a0everybody around here. So it\u2019s over. Okay, not everybody, but, ah, ah, you been messin\u2019 around with a lot of girls. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Male asks Bruce a question, too soft.<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>Yes, yes, yes, yes.<\/p>\n

Shanda:<\/b> And you\u2014 you swore<\/i> you wasn\u2019t\u2014 didn\u2019t touch Karen. Karen was the one coming on to you.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/b> Is this true?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Oh, what\u2014 what about this, Karen? What did, uh, what was this uh, arrangement between you?<\/p>\n

Karen:<\/b> No\u2014 (Clears throat) The thing\u2014 the thing was between me and Bruce, it was always Bruce com\u2014 it was all Bruce coming to me, and it was me just going along with it all the time, and um, Bruce would always tell me, when Shanda was going back into Georgetown, and uh, he\u2014 like, when she got\u2014 when she got here, just this last time, he was saying, um, how he was missing me, and how, how uh, when he was with Shanda, he was wishing he was with me and stuff. And he, he just all said this kind of stuff, and didn\u2019t\u2014 just before he left this last time, he was telling me um, how it was going to be over and stuff, and um, and um, that he really liked Shanda and stuff. That\u2019s\u2014 that\u2019s what he just said ju\u2014 just before he went to Georgetown this last time.<\/p>\n

Shanda:<\/b> (fades in) \u2014too late. I want you to know, it\u2019s too late. I want you to know, (unintelligible word), it\u2014 it is<\/i> too late. Your shit has been going on too long with other ladies, five and six on the side, but it\u2019s ended now<\/i>. (Pause) And I hope every other sister know\u2014 know Bruce\u2019s games.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>Yes.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Tell me how you came to go with your brother\u2019s girlfriend, though. That uh, that came out in this catharsis. How\u2019d that come?<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>Uh, that was uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> No, just tell me how. Why would you do that to your brother?<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>It was\u2014\u00a0Because it was\u2014 it was\u2014 okay, it was six years ago, and uh\u2014\u00a0and uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Male:<\/b> Hey, Bruce\u2014<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>(cuts him off) Okay, okay, but let me\u2014\u00a0okay okay, and uh\u2014 I was\u2014 and he knew that I was really really liking a girl, and she went with him because he was prettier than me. That\u2019s what you told me. And that\u2014 And that really really hurt my ego, so\u2014 so then\u2014 so then when he quit her, I, I, I was still liking her, so then that\u2019s when\u2014 so that\u2019s when uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Oh, you had quit her?<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>No, he<\/i> had. See, she never would go with me, \u2018cause she said that\u2014 she said that she wished that, that I had Billy\u2019s looks, but, but my mind, and uh, and, and she said, she was just, she\u2014 (Sniffs) so she went with Billy. It was six\u2014 This was six years<\/i> ago, and she went with Billy\u2014<\/p>\n

Voices interrupt.<\/p>\n

Bill: <\/b>Wait, let me, me ask one, let me ask one question we can understand something, Bruce. \u2018Cause like\u2014 (fades out)\u2014 This is exactly the same second I said\u2014 ah, I said, we was warring at a party, and what happened was uh\u2014 (Pause) Wh\u2014 What happened was I went out to party, and I walked down the stairs to the house, right? So then I saw\u2014\u00a0turned around and saw Bruce walkin\u2019 with her. So I said, well, I want to see how my brother is, right, so I went\u2014 I went in the door, as they walked up the stairs, I came back out to the stairs and I went upstairs, and that\u2019s when I saw \u2018em. This is the exact same second, you know, and I\u2014 I felt that was kinda f\u2014 shitty, even though it was six years ago, but it still carries (unintelligible word), I still lost a lot of respect for you for that. And you know, right at the same second, I\u2014 I\u2014\u00a0you\u2014<\/p>\n

Voices compete.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> Did you quit him\u2014 quit her?<\/p>\n

Bill:<\/b> Oh, the\u2014 at the\u2014 at the party, that second, yes.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> You quit her at the party and then he fucked her right after that.<\/p>\n

Bill:<\/b> The minute<\/i>. The min\u2014 yes. This is\u2014\u00a0this is\u2014 this is at\u2014 this is at the party.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/b> You talkin\u2019 about after the fact? Did\u2014 did you\u2014 did you quit her after the fact, after you found them doing it, you know?<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>No<\/i>. No. \u2018S before. It was\u2014 it was\u2014 it was before. Before.<\/p>\n

Bill:<\/b> You see, well, you see, here\u2019s, here\u2019s the whole thing, though, and this is\u2014<\/p>\n

Tape cuts to minimal tones for several moments. Voices hard to understand.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> (tape cuts in) We was breaking up, and I mean it was your thing?<\/p>\n

Male voice too soft in reply.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> Oh, shit. Fuck it.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/b> \u2014 unclear here to me. Uh, I don\u2019t\u2014 I don\u2019t excuse Bruce\u2019s\u2014 I don\u2019t excuse Bruce\u2019s ah, action here. But uh, didn\u2019t you know Bruce was with her? Well, don\u2019t you owe some allegiance to your sister?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> That\u2019s one allegiance that never<\/i> has been, been with sisters. They don\u2019t, uh\u2014 they\u2019re not emancipated enough to uh, see that uh, without uh, solidarity\u2014 this is same problem we have with we who are black and Indian<\/i>. There\u2019s no solidarity. Your very best friend will do it and undercut, and until people realize the necessity of that kind of solidarity, we will never overcome. That\u2019s why women are shit on to this day. And you shit on each other. (Pause) Well, that\u2019s\u2014 your marital situation is between you and he to decide. I would not base your marital separation on an, a, a sexual embarrassment. If you are finished with his relationship based on something else, fine. But uh, this<\/i> is the\u2014 this<\/i> is the way the game<\/i> goes. This is standard. This is standard practice. (Pause) It\u2019s going to\u2014 It\u2019s going to have to stop<\/i>, or everyone give the same license<\/i>, and there oughtn\u2019t to be this be this juvenile browbeating of her<\/i>. If she\u2019d had an affair, she had every right<\/i> to an affair, because you ding-dong her\u2014 so I understand, not by public testimony, but what she told me privately, that you ding-donged her every damn day about Tim. How was it, \u2018n what was it, \u2018n what was it like? This kind of shit.<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>No, Dad, no. No, I didn\u2019t, how it wasn\u2019t, and\u2014 no, I did not do that. That\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, this is certainly a lot of preoccupation with Tim here, son. Gotta get on this radio right now, wanted to go to\u2014 he, he\u2014 I\u2019m sure you didn\u2019t just develop that preoccupation overnight<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Male voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> This is in your own hand<\/i>writing.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/b> You see, that the idea\u2014 the idea for you to go through this kind of stuff, when we\u2019re in the\u2014 when we\u2019re in the middle of a White Night. We\u2019re trying to get some things straight, and you gonna put all this kind of\u2014 you know, that you gotta\u2014 you got<\/i> to do this\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> And they\u2019re trying to kidnap you in the town<\/i>. And I needed you, or I needed your function. But I woulda brought you back anyway, under the cir<\/i>cumstances. I\u2019da brought you back<\/i>. Can\u2019t be dependable, you say, I\u2019ve got to\u2014 I\u2019ve got to talk to you. This letter doesn\u2019t sound like you\u2019re any\u2014 preoccupied with anything<\/i> but your relationship. (Pause) And a\u2014 and a very possessive way of, of talking<\/i> about it. (Pause) It\u2019s bullshit<\/i> for a person who been in socialism as long as (Pause) you. And I want to clear the air of a lot of things. Is it true that when your parents off\u2014 offered you both a car, that you took the car and Billy would not take the car\u2014<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>No, Dad.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> \u2014and then took the money, uh, told him he need\u2014 wanted the money to go to the cause, and they wouldn\u2019t give it, and you still took the car from them?<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>Dad, I bought that car with my own money.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> (unintelligible) what you told me\u2014<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>I lied\u2014 I bought the car with my own money. I lied about it, but I bought the car with my own money.<\/p>\n

Bill:<\/b> (Sniffs) Uh, uh, my\u2014 what you told me is what, you, you told me, don\u2019t say nothing, that um, Mom and Grandmother, so you don\u2019t tell nothing, and you got\u2014 and you bought the car. And that\u2019s\u2014 and that\u2019s\u2014 and that\u2019s been the case all through the years, that you bou\u2014 buying suits, and I tell you, I saw one and I said\u2014 (stumbles over words) that\u2019s been the case all through the years. And you told me that Grand\u2014\u00a0that Grandma and Mom got together, and said don\u2019t tell me nothing about it, and bought you the car. And just before we left, (unintelligible phrase) you was gonna get another Firebird.<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>Dad? Uh, it, it has<\/i> been true that\u2014 it has<\/i> been true that all our life that, that Billy, Billy has been way<\/i> more principled than me, that, he would\u2014 he would\u2014 he would never accept money from\u2014 he would al\u2014 every\u2014 every money you gave him, he would turn in to the cause. Every\u2014 every\u2014 every time you offered to buy him stuff, he would say, no, that he wanted to go, and he had to go to church, and he had to go on security, he would never ever accept nothing from her. It would always be me that would\u2014 when they offered it, I would take it, but he\u2014 every\u2014 almost every dime he got, he turned in to the church, Dad, and\u2014 you know\u2014<\/p>\n

Voice in crowd too soft.<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>It was\u2014 (unintelligible, tape break-up), but he\u2014 he had\u2014 he had\u2014 he had the way\u2014 way of more principle\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Parental) Yes, and he\u2019s more mature and not filled with fear, uh, because he\u2014 he had the cou\u2014 he had the uh, confidence to date a practicing\u2014 and become engaged to a practicing lesbian without being threatened. Here you had nothing<\/i> to concern yourself until you created<\/i> the very situation\u2014 you set it up<\/i>\u2014 you\u2014 out of your own paranoia, you created your own downfall. And here\u2019s a young man who, not<\/i> protected, not<\/i> sheltered, did<\/i> the principled thing, who has matured far<\/i> far beyond you. You should have broken away from that sick thing that your mother did with you, and\u2014 enough to see her hatred. \u2018Cause now they\u2019re involved in sending mer<\/i>cenaries to get you, and you saw<\/i> them approach you<\/i> in the building. You know what the, uh, the paper says, that the mercenaries are to come to get you, (deliberate) dead or alive, to take you by force. Well, you know\u2014 know\u2014 you know it now. Um\u2014 and they\u2019re involved in that, ah, [Tim]\u00a0Stoen\u2019s involved in that, Ponts is, ah, Lois\u2019 whatever he\u2014 what the name of the man, I don\u2019t want to keep calling him Ponts, what\u2019s the\u2014<\/p>\n

Voice in crowd too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Unintelligible word) Ponts is his name?<\/p>\n

Voice in crowd too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Don. Okay, Don. Okay, Don. (Pause) These are wicked people. And\u2014 I did put my life on my line for you, and I didn\u2019t appreciate this\u2014 you got to get on the radio, and you did<\/i> come that radio\u2014\u00a0requiring our\u2014 right in the middle of our crisis<\/i>, to talk<\/i>. And we weren\u2019t\u2014 we were hardly able to have radio contact<\/i>. We were barely able to get out the minimal communications necessary for our survival<\/i>. And this letter is demanding<\/i> that you\u2014 she talk to you on the radio. And you did<\/i> come to the radio, son, and took up\u2014 tried to take up precious time, till they just wouldn\u2019t uh, they wouldn\u2019t agree to it. Is that correct?<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>Dad, when I came to the radio, it was\u2014<\/p>\n

Voices.<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>They\u2014 they\u2014 Debbie [Blakey, also known as Debbie Layton], who was doing the radio, called people down at the times that she thought people can talk. I\u2014 I\u2014 I\u2014 I\u2014 I never demanded\u2014<\/p>\n

Male voice in crowd: <\/b>(Unintelligible) If you had got on there, you woulda\u2014 you woulda (unintelligible), what a\u2014 what a bunch of bullshit about Shanda\u2014 (voice overcome by Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> It says so here.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> That\u2019s not true.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> It says so.<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>What I wanted to ask\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> What\u2019s that?<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> That\u2019s not true, because we had been cut off from radio for\u2014 (Interrupted) What? Oh, I\u2019m sorry. (Softer voice) We had been cut off from radio, and you came down, and you wanted to say hello. We hadn\u2019t even been able to communicate one day, and you came down.<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>I\u2014 I asked\u2014 I asked\u2014<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> I know, but you didn\u2019t even think<\/i> about the fact that we hadn\u2019t even had any communication, you wanted to talk to Shanda.<\/p>\n

Man in crowd: <\/b>You just lied.<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/b> I can understand that you might be a little afraid<\/i> that uh, she might find out what you\u2019ve been doing. You know, you were left there in Georgetown\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones and Marceline speak over each other.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> \u2014 His letter\u2019s not even humble<\/i> about it, what he was doing. He was wanting to find out, right now, what she and Tim was doing, as if it were fact, law and gospel, and have me chasing all around here\u2014<\/p>\n

Male in crowd:<\/b> (fades in) respect for her. Shows her deep respect and care for (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> It isn\u2019t, if\u2014 if it were true. (Deliberate) It is written as if it is fact.<\/p>\n

Voice in crowd too soft.<\/p>\n

Male voice cuts in: <\/b>\u2014 because he cares about each and every one of us, cares about you, Shanda and the whole thing, we\u2019ll get to the bottom of it. And so, in the middle of all this stuff, he\u2019ll put down\u2014 he\u2019ll put down stuff that, that he shouldn\u2019t be concerned about\u2014 (Pause) He\u2014 He\u2019ll put down stuff that he shouldn\u2019t be concerned<\/i> about, he\u2019ll deal with, deal with stuff that\u2019s personal (voice fades out)\u2014<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>Right.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> I\u2019m\u2014 I\u2019m talking about the letter now, (unintelligible) find out, find out, find out what you\u2019re doing, all this based on what you had (tape break-up). That was a bunch of bullshit.<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>That\u2019s true.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Reads) Please make sure Jimmy talks to his dad about me coming back to practice for the show. He\u2019ll know what I\u2019m talking about. And I asked Jim, and he said there was no such arrangement.<\/p>\n

Voice in crowd too soft.<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>I\u2014 I told you, I\u2014 I\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Shh. Shh. I\u2019m just trying to get\u2014 I\u2019m sorry, I didn\u2019t mean to\u2014 shh. This thing doesn\u2019t act like it\u2019s worth anything at this moment, is it?<\/p>\n

Voice in crowd too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Okay, fine. That\u2019s good. He\u2019ll know what I\u2019m talking about. (Pause) You see, I\u2014 I am forced<\/i> by your hand. When I needed someone to relieve\u2014 How long is uh, um, yeah, Ricky? Yeah, they\u2019ve been in there, but I was thinking, probably [Robert] Stroud, how long\u2014 how long? Three months? Four months? Five months? And you can\u2019t be there a few days, and you\u2019re trying to arrange to get your ass out of there, when you coulda been, with your mind on\u2014 on helping, so that my procurement could have gone on. This letter\u2019s very demanding, to get back here, right?<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>Yes, Dad.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> This is your writing.<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>Yes, Dad. (Sniffs)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Pause) I would think that you would<\/i> have uh, felt every urgency\u2014 Because I put my life square-ass on the line for you. Square-ass on the line. That I can well<\/i> remember. And I said, they couldn\u2019t have you, and by God, there was a court order to say otherwise. (Pause) And if they invoked the court order, I\u2019da died<\/i> out here. And you\u2019re caught up in this kind of bullshit. And every time you try to possess someone, son, you lose them. Can\u2019t do it. (Pause) Sooner or later, it happens.<\/p>\n

Male in crowd:<\/b> What do you got to say, Bruce?<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>Dad, uh\u2014 (sniffs) I am\u2014 I am\u2014 (weepy voice) I am sorry for taking up your time, Dad, and the letter was, was very possessive in that I was trying to cover my ass of things that I had been doing, and, you know, and I deserve whatev\u2014 whatever discipline, Learning Crew, whatever. (Sniff) And\u2014\u00a0and\u2014<\/p>\n

(tape break-up for 30 seconds)<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>Yes, Dad.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> You believe that? Do you believe she\u2019s saying that\u2014 what she means?<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>Yes, Dad.<\/p>\n

Shanda:<\/b> I hope so, Bruce.<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>I do.<\/p>\n

Shanda:<\/b> (Saddened) I mean\u2014 and it\u2019s not over no sexual thing about you, just\u2014 I\u2019m just tired<\/i> of your bullshit all along. You lie so good. And you\u2014 I mean, I\u2019m just tired of being questioned about Tim, you not trusting me, the whole stuff. So it\u2019s\u2014 that\u2019s it.<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>I know. I know.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Go ahead.<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>I\u2014 I know\u2014 I know\u2014 I know I know I know I had been really possessive, and I know\u2014 I know after\u2014\u00a0I know after that um, I<\/i> deserve it, \u2018cause you know, after, after my mom did this, after my mom did this shit, I just became really\u2014 you know, I just\u2014 I just clung on to Shanda and I just became really possessive with her, co\u2014 so it\u2019s like I said, I\u2019m trying to\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> You transferred from a manipulative woman, and tried to make one out of a, a socialist woman? You had a s\u2014 manipulative mother, who spoiled you, retarded you, held you back. And no, you couldn\u2019t possibly expect Shanda to develop that kind of character, because she was a (unintelligible word) type. Anybody that tries to get you killed<\/i>, don\u2019t give a shit about you. You got a few dollars out of her, and you feel guilt about that<\/i>. Your brother did the right thing. He grows to such confidence that I\u2019m sure he would not be disturbed who he saw talking with Cynthia. Any young man that can have that kind of integrity cannot be disturbed, because so many men are bothered, although all women appreciate other women, all women admire other women\u2014 (tape break-up)<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> And so, he feels ah, confident<\/i> that he can have a relationship with (tape break-up) \u2014functional ree-tard, because you have stated you were fixated on that woman that was trying to destroy you. She wasn\u2019t emancipating you. She wanted a little boy. And that\u2019s what she got. And then you try to transfer that to a young woman<\/i>? A socialist, mature woman who has been one of our best young black leaders? You ought to know<\/i> that shit wouldn\u2019t go, and it\u2019s so hypocritical. If you were so insecure with her, why did you \u2014 the moment she got gone \u2014 want to take on with this, this woman?<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/b> (fades in) \u2014you answer Dad, but I also want to say, you owe something to her.<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>(Stutters) (Sniffs) It was just the same insecurity, I\u2014 you know \u2014 (Pause) I\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Critical) It\u2019s strange<\/i>, though, it\u2019s a stupid way to get secure<\/i>. How do you think you\u2019re going to get secure with her<\/i> by going to bed with her<\/i>, and\u2014 and you must had a\u2014\u00a0I\u2014\u00a0I\u2014 you must had a re\u2014 high<\/i> degree of narcissism and arrogance that you didn\u2019t think that shit wouldn\u2019t get out on you. (Pause) It always<\/i> gets out. But you were pretty sure. This letter doesn\u2019t show me\u2014 you weren\u2019t worried about this hitting the fan. All you were worried about, that she and Tim might be doing something. But you weren\u2019t worried. You were confident you had this woman in your control.<\/p>\n

Male in crowd:<\/b> Right?<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>Yes, Dad.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/b> Why? (Pause)<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>I just\u2014 I just didn\u2019t think it would get out.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> It\u2019s a high degree of narcissism.<\/p>\n

Several voices in crowd.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> It\u2019s a (unintelligible word)\u2014 it\u2019s a (same word) mentality. You\u2014 you can use both of these women at the same time, and still move\u2014 move on to something else if you wanted to. You thought<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Voices too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, now your life has started, son. You\u2019ve lost a, a good woman. Now what\u2014 uh, what\u2019s\u2014 now, where are you? Where are you? What you going to do?<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>Just\u2014 just start\u2014 just (sighs) (Pause) Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Are you sure you\u2019re facing this?<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>Yes, Dad.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>Just\u2014 I\u2014 I owe you\u2014 I owe you a lot, Dad, so, so just\u2014 be on my own, just, just start working.<\/p>\n

Male voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Knowing\u2014<\/p>\n

Male:<\/b> You know, there\u2019re a lot of people that charge bills on credit, not even pain<\/i> will pay.<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well put.<\/p>\n

Voices too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Don\u2019t make announcements on that P.A. system. Oh, God, let\u2019s do not do that. (Pause) Are you sure you don\u2019t think like you\u2014 maybe you\u2019ll be able to manipulate, to get back?<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>I don\u2019t. I don\u2019t. I don\u2019t. (Sniffs)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I would say it\u2019s pretty decisive, the counsel I\u2019ve had, which has been considerable. It\u2019s pretty decisive, so you\u2019re gonna have to pick up the pieces. (Pause) Where do you want to start?<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>(Pause) By\u2014 (Pause) I\u2014<\/p>\n

(Tape cuts off)<\/p>\n

(End of side 1)<\/p>\n

(Side 2)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Tape cuts in) \u2014for your plaything? I don\u2019t know\u2014 I don\u2019t know what particular\u2014 or did you substitute her as a mother too? What\u2014 what were you doing? Mum\u2014 Let one get away, and you t\u2014 take up with another. What\u2014 what\u2014 what is the\u2014\u00a0what was the\u2014 (More deliberate) What did this<\/i> woman mean to you, and what did she<\/i> mean to you?<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>Uh, it\u2014 it was that\u2014 it was that exact same thing. When Shanda was gone, I didn\u2019t think\u2014 I thought she was going to be in Georgetown. I\u2014 I really didn\u2019t think she would\u2014 I really didn\u2019t think she wanted to come back. I really thought that she wanted to stay there, \u2018cause\u2014 \u2018cause she was working hard for the church. So then that\u2019s when\u2014 that\u2019s when I started messing around with Karen, and uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Messing around with Karen? She says it\u2019s been going on for\u2014 for years.<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/b> Are you saying\u2014<\/p>\n

Woman (Karen?): <\/b>Yeah.<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/b> Are you saying that because Shanda was devoted to the cause and wanted to work for the church, that you were going to turn to another woman? Is that what you\u2019re telling us?<\/p>\n

Lee Ingram: <\/b>\u2014make Shanda suffer for that.<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>Ye\u2014 ye\u2014 yes, \u2018cause I\u2014 I didn\u2019t\u2014 I just\u2014\u00a0I didn\u2019t think\u2014 I didn\u2019t think that she\u2014 that she\u2014 I\u2014 I\u2014<\/p>\n

Voices too soft.<\/p>\n

Male in crowd:<\/b> \u2014coming out now, what\u2019s coming out now is that you and Karen have had a long\u2014 long thing\u2014 (JJ speaks over him)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Have you, or have you not? It\u2019s what was told me.<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>Ye\u2014 ye\u2014 it\u2019s been\u2014 it was on, then it was off, then it was\u2014 then it was on, then it was off.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> \u2018Cause you do story now, I find then.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/b> Is that right?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Mother\u2019s story against you perhaps, but you do\u2014 do story. You look<\/i> in your face like you didn\u2019t recognize us at all.<\/p>\n

Voices too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> He does what?<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/b> I don\u2019t like\u2014<\/p>\n

Male:<\/b> He does story, I think\u2014 he does story from time that\u2019s critical of security.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> What was that?<\/p>\n

Male:<\/b> Like, like the time when you was with security down at the house and the times you\u2014 you\u2019ve been asleep and you always put it off on your other partner, like\u2014 well, lis\u2014 let me talk, Bruce, let me talk. While you say, well, you know, we\u2014 like, we know<\/i> something you did, \u2018cause we come down there, we always check security out, and we see what you be doing, but we\u2014 (tape break-up) and you\u2019re always put off, like, you know, we (tape break up) and I see him doing this, and, he does this, (tape breakup) maybe, you know, I don\u2019t know nothing about it (tape break-up)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> \u2014take a gun with him?<\/p>\n

Male:<\/b> Yeah. He fell asleep with his gun in holster, and they took the gun away from him.<\/p>\n

Voices too soft.<\/p>\n

New male: <\/b>All right, the thing about that was, (struggles for words) it was me and Tim, me and Tim was roving that night, and we went down to the house, and we first (tape break-up) first we say who was on duty, so we call. (tape break-up) (voice has weird pick-up) \u2014security. Therefore we saw the gun. It was the first thing we s\u2014 saw was the\u2014 first thing we saw was two shotguns laying down. So then\u2014 So me and Tim, we split it up, we went around (unintelligible) look for a person, but we couldn\u2019t find them, so\u2014\u00a0so we just step aside.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/b> And also, too\u2014<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/b> \u2014you don\u2019t know a thing about this.<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>I\u2019m sorry, not\u2014 I was sit\u2014 It\u2014 it\u2014\u00a0it was my fault, I was sitting right there, wi\u2014\u00a0wi\u2014 with gun (unintelligible word) I was asleep, and that\u2019s\u2014 that\u2019s when they\u2014 that\u2019s when they\u2014 at that time I knew I really\u2014 I was really really<\/i> really paranoid, \u2018cause I\u2014 I\u2014 I was wondering how come\u2014 how could that happen<\/i>? It made me feel really\u2014 you know, I thought\u2014 I was\u2014 I was (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/b> You were asleep?<\/p>\n

Voices distorted.<\/p>\n

Bruce: <\/b>I got\u2014 I got paranoid when that happened. (tape breakup) You know, I\u2014 I got really paranoid, you know, wonder why I didn\u2019t get into worse trouble (tape breakup).<\/p>\n

Difficulties with recording system lasting for several minutes.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/b> \u2014and then, as an\u2014 as an addition to that, it\u2019s like, it\u2019s like putting down another<\/i> sister right here who you, who you said doesn\u2019t have, uh, a commitment, you know, (unintelligible phrase), you know, like\u2014 like uh, you know, you gonna put, you gonna put Shanda down, and then, you know, because she\u2019s in Jonestown\u2014 or in Georgetown, working all hard and everything, so you\u2019re going to go up to someone else, which seems like, you know, hey, they\u2019re\u2014 (tape cuts out for several seconds), but Bruce, you\u2014 you come off, you know, every time I\u2019ve been talking, when I\u2019m talking to you, you come off like, like (tape cuts out for several moments).<\/p>\n

Another male: \u2014that okay, people be running around here, so I\u2019m mixed up (unintelligible).<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/b> (Slow and steady) The idea that a good relationship is built on always having pleasant times together is wrong. You can\u2019t really\u2014 unless you share the unpleasant<\/i>, as well as the pleasant, and get to know<\/i> each other, you\u2019re not<\/i> going to have anything that\u2019s lasting. And while I\u2019m\u2014\u00a0this is another subject, but I want to know, why is it that I\u2019ve seen this happen more than once, and I don\u2019t know whether this is true or not with you, Bobbie, that when a relationship goes along until the woman gets pregnant, and then all of a sudden, the man\u2019s not interested anymore. This bothers me.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> That\u2019s frequently frequently frequently true around here. Frequently true with um, human equation. Now my opinion, basic<\/i> opinion (pause) is that I fail to see how you\u2019re going to avoid a euphoria<\/i>, a state of unreality, and I\u2019d like to hear you, you that have dissented here, to g\u2014 show me how you\u2019re going to avoid that. You\u2019re going to develop\u2014 I made you very cynically aware of life, if you\u2019ve listened, and those that are listening are ready for anything and are alert for everything, I guess there can come a point of cynicism which you don\u2019t cover your ass, but I\u2019ve never been that way. I don\u2019t mean cover your ass in a sense of uh\u2014 me, personally, covering the whole movement\u2019s ass. I still work just as hard \u2014 I believe that\u2019s analytical \u2014 and listen to all the goddamn communiqu\u00e9s that come in here and still try to resolve all the problems, just as intensely, with a high degree of cynicism. All the assurances (struggles for words) that come through, all the beautiful promises of the government, calling on us now to be in the election, and (Pause) things working out for us pretty cool. I still<\/i> operate from a high degree of cynicism. Now (Pause) how are you going to be able to uh, avoid developing uh, a euphoria, and how are you going to be\u2014 be able to build any kind of relationship between people<\/i>? Where\u2019s the form going to take place to build relationships? \u2018Cause all it\u2019s<\/i> gonna be is sex. (Pause) Practical\u2014 (Marceline speaks over him)<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/b> None of us know anything about loving, but the beginning<\/i> of loving \u2014 as I\u2019ve said hundreds<\/i> of times \u2014\u00a0is sharing what you are, the negative and<\/i> the positive, with another individual. And if all you want is to get together when you feel<\/i> like you\u2019re gonna have fun together, that\u2019s no relationship. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I\u2019m going to have to pee. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Voices in crowd too soft.<\/p>\n

Young white woman:<\/b> Okay, my reason for voting for it is that, is that um, I found, when I was in a relationship, that being in the relationship, being in an\u2014 an intense uh, being around a person all the time, made me an unfunctional human being, and um, I feel that, that as long as we\u2019re um, tolerating relationships, that we would have more functional people if um, they didn\u2019t have to have this constant relating. I\u2014 I feel<\/i> that the constant relating is a sickness. I\u2014 I\u2014\u00a0I really feel that, since I\u2019ve um, been out of the um, this intense one-to-one relationship since I\u2019ve been in here, you know, I\u2014 I feel that I\u2019ve become a much more healthy human being, and um, you know, I just feel it\u2019s a\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> That sounds reasonable. That sounds reasonable. Now let\u2019s hear another.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/b> Uh, the reason I voted \u2018cause I feel\u2014 I feel the same way that uh, Taylor felt, \u2018cause I\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I don\u2019t want to hear\u2014 I don\u2019t want to hear any of that. I don\u2019t want to hear anybody saying what someone else felt. I want to hear what you<\/i> have to say.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/b> Right. O\u2014 Okay. What I feel is that if\u2014\u00a0if you was uh\u2014 okay like, living (unintelligible word)\u2014\u00a0living together, you know, you cons\u2014\u00a0you constantly, you know, know what I\u2019m saying, (struggles for words) you know, places, you know, inside, you know, with, with that person, you know, you just steady, you know, going and going over with this fir\u2014 you know, the same person, and so I feel you know like, she\u2014 like, she\u2014 if she lived in another (stumbles for words) cottage, and I live someplace else, and then you know, off and\u2014 like we see each other off and on, I feel that way, you know, you\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> You see anybody else\u2014 have you ever seen anybody else since you been in your relationship?<\/p>\n

Male:<\/b> I\u2019m not in a relationship.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Mmm?<\/p>\n

Male:<\/b> I\u2019m not in a relationship.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Okay, okay. I understand. I\u2019m just asking. (Pause) Go ahead.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/b> And so uh, (stumbles over words) like uh, Billy right? \u2018Cause his<\/i> relationship, his<\/i> relationship going on, going on real good, right?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/b> And so I\u2014 and so I feel two people, you know, living together\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> He\u2014 They don\u2019t live together?<\/p>\n

Male:<\/b> Not that I know of.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> How many\u2014 how many\u2014 how many\u2014 Huh? (Slips over words) Of course not.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/b> And like\u2014 and\u2014 and then they\u2019s going along good, you know, and so I feel\u2014 when two people, you know, like, two couples that live together, you know like, they\u2019re always arguing, you know, they\u2019re always getting into a fight or something\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, that\u2019s\u2014 that\u2019s the unreality.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/b> But\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> That\u2019s the unreality of relationships. That\u2019s life<\/i>. Now what\u2019s going to happen if we don\u2019t face that, and see the need to communicate<\/i> more? \u2018Cause something\u2019s wrong<\/i>. Something basically wrong<\/i>. We\u2019re not communicating. We don\u2019t like each other. We fighting that much. Are we going to be able to avoid that by uh, changing the style? What substitution are we going to have for it? I want some substitution. If you go for it, I want some requirement that every person must<\/i> take time with a child. (Pause) Uh, there got to be\u2014 I think this is a very dangerous situation otherwise. (Pause) There gonna be just sexual sharing here, and nothing else, uh, very, very bad situation. Nobody\u2019s ever going to know each other, they\u2019re not going to be able to communicate, not going to bear other people\u2019s problems (Pause). I know that some of us have not operated that way. We uh, we\u2014 if we were caught in situations that were\u2014 for socialistic<\/i> reasons, even, we have maintained them. (Pause) And we didn\u2019t jump out of them. (Pause) And if I had uh, jumped out of relations \u2014\u00a0Jesus Christ \u2014 and didn\u2019t want to communicate, there\u2019d be a thousand people here that would have some misfortunes. Some of you don\u2019t know it, but uh, you would have. (Pause) Somebody had to be willing to give and listen, and I have come to that point in time when I can\u2019t take as much<\/i> of that in pressure, but I\u2019m very<\/i>, very concerned that people will use this as an out<\/i> for ever giving<\/i> of themselves. That\u2019s what I see as a danger. Then there are people like this who honestly, as she said, can\u2019t take an intense relationship. (Pause) But I don\u2019t know how you make in a commune, different kinds of rules uh, for different people. Maybe it\u2019s possible. \u2018Cause there\u2019ll always be somebody envying the other role, and we\u2019ll have a constant shifting of policies every day. Yes, uh, Lisa, what were you going to say about it?<\/p>\n

Lisa: <\/b>(Caribbean accent) It seems that a lot of people who are h\u2014\u00a0are having relationships and live together, seem to go apart awfully quickly, and I was just thinking that possibly<\/i> if they started out to have a relationship where they\u2019re not forced to live together, they might mature enough to eventually make it a la\u2014\u00a0more lasting relationship. I was thinking particular of, uh, Bobby\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Okay, how\u2014 how we gonna control this birth control thing? What I want to find is uh, the first thing, gonna have two people pregnant, that don\u2019t even know each other. That\u2019s what\u2014 and then, then how in the hell you gonna rear a child, uh\u2014\u00a0you gonna have to hear from\u2014 I want to hear from birth control people strict ways for the enforcement of this. Um\u2014\u00a0(Pause) And people are free in their time\u2014 that means you have free time. That means that I see it, I see it as plain as the nose of my face, there gonna be s\u2014 gonna be playing.<\/p>\n

Male voice too far from mike.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Why can\u2019t somebody talk about birth control besides\u2014\u00a0is there anybody else?<\/p>\n

Male voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes, Lisa, go ahead.<\/p>\n

Lisa:<\/b> I was thinking, when you asked that question, I was thinking in terms of uh, Bob and Daisy [Lee]. Now eh, Bob\u2014 they don\u2019t seem to be mature enough to carry on a re\u2014 a lasting relationship, but they are not ready to, to give it up. And I thought if they were given the chance to live apart and continue it, they might mature enough to make up their own minds. I\u2014 I\u2014\u00a0I hate to see them being forced to make up their mi\u2014 up their minds on the spot, whether they want to continue or quit\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, I\u2019ll tell you one thing. You\u2019re talking liberalism as opposed to communism. And liberalism, I think, can come at a place in communism. But right now we\u2019re a communist movement in a \u2014 in a war zone. Terrifying war zone. And I think that there\u2014 they not only got to develop this kind of latitude as time goes on, if this is the peace, if this is indeed the wind of peace that\u2019s coming in, then we can develop that facility to cope with each person\u2019s individual problem. Right now, we have to make a lot<\/i> of rules and abide by them, because it\u2019s a survival situation. (Struggles for words) Maybe later we\u2019ll be able to have variations on the menu<\/i>. But now, we\u2019d go\u2014 we\u2019d go broke in one month, if we had much\u2014 very much variation. We do<\/i> have variation for people\u2019s health<\/i>, and that\u2019s<\/i> more than we really can afford. But um\u2014 if I make myself clear, I\u2014 I\u2014\u00a0I\u2014\u00a0I sympathize fully<\/i> with their situation, and the need\u2014\u00a0you\u2014 you can\u2019t put everybody in the same hue. And it\u2019s very, very true. But then you have to look at the totality. What achieves the greatest success for people, the greatest good for the greatest number of humanity is communism<\/i>, obviously. Be willing\u2014 encroach a little bit on some<\/i> people\u2019s individualism. Generally<\/i> it increases individualism. It strengthens the individual. Gives them more security, and out of that security comes a stronger person, if they appreciate what communism\u2019s about.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Daisy and Bobby been apart, she said. They have<\/i> been in Georgetown. Okay, uh, yes, uh, Lois.<\/p>\n

Lois:<\/b> I\u2019m thinking that uh, uh, our people, our young people are not really um, become too responsible in a lot of ways uh, our young men\u2014 I see a lot of chauvinism in our young men. I think uh, we need classes<\/i> or something, where they come out of\u2014 now we have a young uh, women\u2019s group now, where they\u2019re learning to be more emancipated, but I think the men cling to their chauvinism. What I\u2014 What I\u2014 I\u2019ve seen uh, dealing with our babies uh, and uh, every one of the men that I\u2019ve seen are uh, chauvinistic, and uh, and they, they are continuing on with their roles um, of letting uh, of just doing what they can do around the woman, and she\u2019s uh, having to tell him every little move to make, and um\u2014 I don\u2019t know, that\u2019s the reason, I\u2014 I\u2019d, uh\u2014 (Pause) Whether it\u2019s familiarity breeds contempt, I don\u2019t know what it is, uh, when people live together, uh, I\u2019ve read of uh, uh, different uh, peoples that, that the women live together and the babies, and the men live in another little place (Short laugh) and they get together on their sex, and they seem to, to make it out all right. I don\u2019t know, uh, when you\u2019re talking about revolution and um, and you\u2019re\u2014 and uh, how anybody can anyway have much sex going on, um\u2014 but anyway, I\u2014 I\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Pretty hard, if we realize how dangerous the conditions are at this particular point, where you don\u2019t know whether mercenaries are landed, where are they, are they here, or are they coming? And I\u2019m so (stumbles over words) at uh, some puzzlement as to where one went, that we saw a manifestation only one time. (Pause) And the\u2014 we have never seen him return. But\u2014 These people<\/i> are serious<\/i>, these people<\/i> are serious<\/i>. They have hired mercenaries, George Hunter said. They have hired<\/i> them. Didn\u2019t say they would<\/i>, he said they have<\/i>. (Pause) Yes, son.<\/p>\n

Son: <\/b>I\u2019d just like to say, I was voting my own mind, and uh, I spoke<\/i> my mind, I spoke what I thought, and I\u2014 I\u2014 I do think though that, um, it\u2019s too late in the night, number one, we have a lot of stuff to do. I think uh, Lee [Ingram] made a suggestion, we ought to reconsider it. I think things change, and I don\u2019t think\u2014 I don\u2019t think\u2014 if we believe that everything is going to h\u2014 have to remain the way we started out with, when we\u2014\u00a0when we made a vote six months ago, I don\u2019t think\u2014 I don\u2019t think we\u2019re being very realistic with ourselves. And people change and time changes, and I think that we oughta\u2014 we oughta\u2014 um, \u2018cause we\u2014 we lost a vote, those of us that voted one way, we lost a vote, and I think that we, uh\u2014 those of us that lost the vote, we have to a\u2014\u00a0abide by, by the majority<\/i>, and I think that\u2019s\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> If you\u2019ve got\u2014 If you\u2019ve got indeed an honest vote. Let\u2019s take the vote once more. \u2018Cause this vote\u2019s a very, very serious vote. (Pause) Now, how many\u2014 \u2018cause I saw you pick up three times in the vote the last<\/i> time. (Pause) Now you\u2019ll lose<\/i> the vote if you don\u2019t vote. I mean, that\u2019s what he said. Then the situation will remain just as it is, until we can have the calm and peace we need to discuss it again<\/i>. And anybody that violates<\/i> that rule will be guilty of all the breaches of discipline that have brought in the past. Learning Crew, personified, in most people\u2019s mind, by Penny [Kerns, also known as Ellen Louise Dupont]. Okay. Again, now\u2014\u00a0How are you going to vote, some of you people. Will you wake \u2018em up? (Pause) Some of you people don\u2019t know shit from apple butter. (Pause) And those who are not interested in relationships a tall, at all, should not vote. (Pause) You have no way of possibly identifying (Pause) the problem. If you\u2019re 85 years of age and not interested in a relationship, you ought to not vote. That\u2019s my opinion. Quit trying to relate to something that you are out of\u2014 out of commission to do, or you want to destroy<\/i> in somebody else, an opportunity for something, because you are over the hill. (Pause) Hmm? (Pause) Peace.<\/p>\n

Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> So now<\/i>, how many want to maintain the existing structure, three month trial, six months\u2014 (Pause) When\u2014 when you finish three month, you go into six months, and you live together during this period. (Pause) And how many are opposed? (Pause)<\/p>\n

Male:<\/b> You know, I\u2014 Dad, may I say something?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Every time, I see more votes, honest to God. I wish you people would vote your p\u2014 piece on the matter, because we\u2019ll never ki\u2014 find truth of where we are, until you speak<\/i> where you are.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/b> Da\u2014 Dad, I\u2014 I don\u2019t think people should just be allowed to start fucking. I think they still should have the three months, and then the six months, and I think it should be up to them, then\u2014 and that\u2019s\u2014\u00a0and that\u2019s how I\u2019m\u2014I\u2019m envisioning my vote. I think it should be up to them, if they want to live together, if they want to live separate, but I don\u2019t think folks just ought to be allowed\u2014 if that\u2019s<\/i> what I\u2019m voting for, then I rescind my vote. I don\u2019t think that\u2019s\u2014 that that\u2019s the\u2014<\/p>\n

Male in crowd:<\/b> (interrupt, voice fades in) \u2014one to one on the other one, you know, it\u2019s not fair, you know, to separate. There ought to be equal agreement on each other.<\/p>\n

First male: <\/b>Right. I\u2014 I think it\u2019s\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I didn\u2019t know what I\u2019m voting on, really. I\u2019m voting, I think, for the continuation of six\u2014 three months, six months, (stumbles over words)\u2014\u00a0it\u2019s just as opposed to one, people uh, living together, the, the same<\/i> situation, the same<\/i> regulation, three months, six months, same bond, if you get pregnant, although the birth control aspects give me some real worry, and I know a lot<\/i> of folk are going to enter into a superficial thing, and they\u2019re going to be four or five things going for them, until you men\u2014\u00a0and there\u2019s some chance we may take in some Chileans or others of that sort, if things go on, which will balance out this population, and you women are going to have to get some goddamn emancipation about you, because you\u2019re<\/i> the one to control it\u2014 You can have a male class, as long as the ratio is more male than female, and women are not emancipated, we\u2019re going to have this shit right along. And you\u2019re going to make your men into ah, apparitions and images that aren\u2019t worth shit, by undue worship. (Pause) If you\u2014 if you\u2014 if you can\u2019t control your panty, then there\u2019s no use for you to vote. If that\u2019s where your image of yourself is going to be, is through your vagina, uh, we\u2019re doomed to failure, until we get a balance of population. And I\u2019ll be tempted<\/i>, very<\/i> strongly, to find that balance of population as quickly as I can, to stop this arrogant bullshit of chauvinism around babies\u2014 it still goes on with baby boy, preferential treatment\u2014 and a lot of crap that I\u2019d like to see eliminated. And that doesn\u2019t necessarily, by any<\/i> means say that those who voted for<\/i> this new arrangement are guilty of that. I\u2019ve seen that amongst some of\u2014 many<\/i> that are wanting to maintain the present structure. So now the vote is again, again. There\u2019s no difference a tall in the relationships. You have to go three months\u2014 Then, unless you come to us, if you\u2019ve got a special, burning problem, you come to us and then we can talk it over\u2014 maybe there\u2019ll be bending<\/i>, if you\u2019ve done very well, earlier<\/i> than three months. Si\u2014 based on work production, where you\u2014 based on your uh, ability to relate to the total family need. (Pause) Uh, three months, and six months, is the same. Unless you\u2019re pregnant, of course, it\u2019s automatic that you\u2019re married. It\u2019s the end of six months, you can\u2019t break a relationship, if you have not taken the care to keep from getting pregnant<\/i>. And that puts the burden on both the male and the female. And if the male doesn\u2019t feel the female\u2019s doing the job, you better do yours. (Pause) \u2018Cause there\u2019re rubbers. Or there\u2019re vasectomies. If you don\u2019t want the responsibility of married, you arrange for a vasectomy. (Pause) Now again, how many want uh, to be able to maintain the same kind of relationship structure, but they would like the freedom of deciding individually whether they live in the same quarters all the time or not? (Pause) I\u2019m going to have to get down to counting now. (Long pause) Now who\u2019s the one over there\u2014 somebody, hand over there? Two forty-two, 43, 44, 45, 46? I got you. Okay, now how many are opposed? (Pause) Now I don\u2019t\u2014 I don\u2019t like some of these votes, you\u2019re afraid\u2014 I see a jealous old bastard\u2019s voting.<\/p>\n

Ripple of laughter. Voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Jealous old bastards. Yeah. I\u2014 I do. Afraid to leave your companion alone for a little bit. So I don\u2019t see maturity necessarily on the side of one or the other. So I\u2019ll take the vote again, and we\u2019ll see again. Now, it\u2019s so damn close. What are the\u2014 the people who wants relationships to be firm, but they want the privilege, if both parties decide to live apart, that they can maintain the sexual relationship\u2014\u00a0Up to what? Even the point beyond which we have babies? How do you\u2014 We\u2019re going to have to define then some clooose responsibilities\u2014<\/p>\n

Male voice:<\/b> (fades in) \u2014Could I add something about birth control? I don\u2019t know\u2014\u00a0Ava says that there\u2019s only 20 women who are taking birth control pills, and I think we ought to really study the situation to find out if we\u2019re getting into pregnancies or not. I don\u2019t know what\u2019s happening with the birth control, and I think we really ought to find out. (Pause) That\u2019s right, but uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Woman voice too soft.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, you (unintelligible word) ready to study it. We, we uh, we don\u2019t<\/i> need about 800 babies.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> Uh\u2014 my opinion of this is, that Liz [Ruggiero] every day has to call out people or send for people to get their birth control pills, and I think at this point that we cannot leave their birth control in their hands. It\u2019s our duty, you know, or we\u2019re going to have pregnancies.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> It\u2019s demand\u2014\u00a0I demand it. It\u2019s not your duty, it\u2019s your\u2014 I demand it. That they must be given those birth control\u2014\u00a0and if they continue to defy law, I think they should go in and be operated.<\/p>\n

Crowd: <\/b>Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Now he can operate them here<\/i>, as far as that goes.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> But as far as I\u2019m concerned\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I think\u2014 I mean this\u2014\u00a0I mean this seriously. If you do not comply with this regulation, we will see that you\u2014 something firm, measures taken.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> Ah, because ah, unless there is a real reason, you know, a real sickness that they cannot take a pill, I don\u2019t think we can depend on them to use rubbers or foam or whatever, because, you know, people are finding things, they\u2019re bringing back stuff that they didn\u2019t know how to use, or one thing\u2014 I mean, there\u2019s a lot of, you know, things cropping up, and then, you know, if something comes up, then it\u2019s all of our responsibilities to take care of that child, and so I think it should be demanded, like you say.<\/p>\n

(End of tape)<\/p>\n

Tape originally posted June 1999<\/b><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you. To return to the Tape Index, click here. To read the Tape Summary, click here. Listen to MP3 (Pt. 1, Pt. 2). Jones: (Speaks deliberately, slowly, dispassionately) \u2014didn\u2019t you have some other matters, there was something […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":6,"featured_media":0,"parent":27291,"menu_order":386,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-27486","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27486","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/6"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=27486"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27486\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":78369,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27486\/revisions\/78369"}],"up":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27291"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=27486"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}