{"id":27489,"date":"2013-06-16T00:20:33","date_gmt":"2013-06-16T00:20:33","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/alternativejonestown.com\/?page_id=27489"},"modified":"2024-10-25T10:22:21","modified_gmt":"2024-10-25T17:22:21","slug":"q609","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=27489","title":{"rendered":"Q609 Transcript"},"content":{"rendered":"

Tape transcribed by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.<\/strong><\/i><\/p>\n

To return to the Tape Index, click here.<\/a> To listen to MP3, click here<\/a>.
\nTo read the Tape Summary, click here<\/a>.<\/p>\n

(Short newscast unrelated to Peoples Temple)
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\nHare:<\/strong> Welcome to Reactions<\/em>. Maybe I shouldn\u2019t have used our theme song tonight with what I\u2019m about to introduce\u2013\u00a0You know there\u2019s a church here in San Francisco, and the press has said this about it. It helped to keep open a medical clinic in San Francisco which otherwise would\u2019ve closed. It benefited the search in the medical fields of cancer, heart disease and sickle cell anemia. It has also supported educational broadcasting such as KQED, and provided emergency cash to distressed families, particularly those of slain law enforcement officers. I could go on and on with the list of what it has done, but the name of this church is the Peoples Temple Christian Church. I don\u2019t know why \u201cChristian\u201d is there, but the minister will tell us about it very soon, because I think it\u2019s sort of inter-denominational. But the man behind this many-faceted church is the Reverend Jim Jones, and I\u2019d like to welcome you to Reactions<\/em> tonight.
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\nJones:<\/strong> Thank you very much.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/strong> And I\u2019d also<\/em> like to welcome um, Michael Prokes, who is an associate<\/em> minister of the same church, who\u2019s also as modest<\/em> as Reverend Jones. But tonight we\u2019re going to just throw that aside and let them actually tell us some of the things that they\u2019re going to do. Now, Reverend Jones, I\u2019d like to begin with this: You\u2019re probably the only man in the world who could bring together in one room at the same time Eldridge Cleaver and Kathleen [Cleaver], Assemblyman Willie Brown, the John Birch Society, Lieutenant Governor Mervyn Dymally, Mayor [George] Moscone, the police chief Charles Gain, District Attorney Joseph Freitas. And most people would wonder, who did that? President [Jimmy] Carter? God? But I found it wasn\u2019t them, it was you<\/em>. How did you bring these entities together?
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\nJones:<\/strong> I really can\u2019t say, other than I suppose that we have a common concern for justice with people, and of course, Cleaver at the time, there was some question\u2013 a great deal of alienation because of his views, and Peoples Temple felt that a person should not be judged because of their views, and we did come to his legal defense. That was not to say that I supported his ideology, but uh, that is probably some explanation. We supported John Bircher once who was being discriminated against, John Bircher who, contrary to all the opinions I\u2019d been told about the Birch Society, he was not a racist, and uh, uh, that\u2013 I think that explains it. We\u2013 We don\u2019t have uh\u2013 an arbitrary attitude of serving only people who agree with us. And that may<\/em> explain some of it.
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\nHare:<\/strong> You happen to remind me of someone [Nathan Hare] with whom I have lived for a number of years<\/em>, when he taught at a predominantly black school, some of the students asked, why would you bring a member of the John Birch Society in to address your class? But he said that the only way you will grow is to be exposed to all ideologies. So I\u2019m glad to know that that\u2019s existing here in San Francisco. Now uh, something else that you\u2019ve done that I don\u2019t<\/em> really understand. Your church is located in somewhat of a transient area in predominantly a black district.
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\nJones:<\/strong> Indeed. Indeed.
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\nHare:<\/strong> Uh, many<\/em> people have tried before you to bring the grass roots together, the so-called\u2013 the black bourgeoisie, the uh, national uh, state and local elected officials to begin to see that the struggle lies in really<\/em> bringing together all these people instead of one predominantly ethnic group. Now how have you been able to do this?
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\nJones:<\/strong> Again, I\u2013 one doesn\u2019t think about their successes, I gather, they\u2019re more concerned about the failures<\/em>. We preach inclusiveness very strongly. We preach that\u2013 or we speak<\/em>, we uh, state that it\u2019s very important that all<\/em> people who have been to some degree left out of the uh, process of economic success, that we get together, that we unite in the common struggle. And that\u2019s very important to us. We also are determined<\/em> to see that there is a good attitude on the part of the majority members, the Caucasoids who are in our (unintelligible word), that they have proper attitude, understanding of the problems of the Third World. But we don\u2019t compromise on our principles in any way in concern uh, for the struggle of the Third World people. But we have a number of good white people that we jokingly say are very well field niggerized.
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\nHare:<\/strong> How about that. I love that expression. (Laughs softly) Well, how did you uh\u2013\u00a0Where\u2013\u00a0what were you doing when the struggle was going on between just the Asians and just the blacks or just the Chicanos. Uh, you were here in this area, but somehow you were low profile. Why are you just now surfacing?
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\nJones:<\/strong> We\u2013 we were not here as a center. You see, it\u2019s only been in the last um, two years that I have been located in San Francisco. I was serving in the northern part of California, in an agricultural community, which was the biggest mistake of my life.
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\nHare:<\/strong> Why was it a mistake?
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\nJones:<\/strong> (Laughs) Well, there\u2019s not enough uh\u2013 there were not enough people representative of all groups and uh\u2013 an agricultural community is a little more sterile. I\u2019m frankly a little bit afraid of what\u2019s happening in agricultural communities these days. Having a multi-racial family, uh, I noted a great deal of prejudice. Not only anti-black feeling, but anti-Semitic feeling, and it\u2019s on the increase across America. And we need to get alarmed about it. All people who have ever suffered any kind of oppression or discrimination need to reckon with this factor. After all, in the past few months, we\u2019ve seen blacks run out of Taft. We\u2019ve seen Indians um, mistreated terribly in different areas, and even our p\u2013 our own state, blacks burned out of Siskiyou County, we had buses surrounded, just because we had black drivers, in Sonoma County. And fortunately the court\u2013 a good judge for the first time come up against this racist element, but they are\u2013 they are there<\/em>, very very much there in the outlying areas of the big uh\u2013 big cities, and certainly our metropolitan areas are not<\/em> free of racism.
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\nHare:<\/strong> Well, unlike the white popular thought that the church has been a leader in the black community \u2013 it has led<\/em>, but I have questions about the nature of the leadership \u2013 but in your<\/em> church, somehow, you\u2019ve brought together uh, the militants, the agnostics, the uh, atheists, the fundamentalists. How have you gotten all these people together?
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\nJones:<\/strong> In our worship style, we respect people based on what they produce<\/em>, and that\u2019s [of] course consistent with Moses\u2019 teasing\u2013 teachings and Jesus\u2019 teaching. Uh\u2013\u00a0Judge a tree by the fruit it bears. So uh, if an atheist does the works of all these great teachers through history of all the religions and uh, the fundamentalist does the work, lives a life of character and concern and shows compassion, we find that we can get along very well. Because Jesus said, he who\u2019s not against me, is on my part. When one of his disciples came up to him early in the ministry, when all the followers that Jesus had were with him, so it had to be someone of another faith, Islam or Hebrew teaching, or some other, Zoroastrianism, who uh\u2013 who knows. But John said, what\u2019re we going to do with this gang. They\u2019re not with<\/em> Jesus. He said, they\u2019re not against me. They\u2019re for me. And so I think we\u2019re doing what uh, Jesus really\u2013 he was in a sense a great revolutionary. And I think we\u2019ve neglected that aspect of Jesus\u2019 teaching. When he judged<\/em> people\u2013 in Matthew 25, the only judgment that ever came out of the mouth of the Nazarene was, I was hungry and you didn\u2019t feed me, I was thirsty, you gave me no drink, I was a stranger, you didn\u2019t take me in. I was in prison, oppressed, and you didn\u2019t do something to get me out of that condition. They said what\u2013\u00a0when did we see you there? He said, in that you saw the least<\/em> of suffering humanity there, you saw me. And so you didn\u2019t<\/em> help them. Now depart from me. I never knew you.
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\nHare:<\/strong> Well, how is it that uh, in your membership uh\u2013\u00a0Well, first, what do you think is the failure of the black ministers, why they haven\u2019t been able to organize people to do the kinds of things you did? Because I understand that it was your church, which you have a lot of grassroots people there who were responsible, uh partially responsible, for freeing the four uh, reporters in Fresno.
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\nJones:<\/strong> That\u2019s true. I think particularly so there. We uh, we heard indirectly from a jurist that there was going to be adimosy [animosity? advocacy?] on that issue, and then when we uh, introduced the pe\u2013\u00a0couple of thousand, with Parr, we had over three thousand\u2013\u00a0uh, ju\u2013 uh, Farr [newsman Bill Farr] rather, in Los Angeles. But one of the jurists said, I guess I\u2019m going to have to\u2013 we\u2019re going to have to get a\u2013 get a\u2013 a judge to do something about this to get all these niggers out of town. And that was of course a compliment to us. Uh\u2013 the press is the people, and we felt uh, that uh, very basic issue here creeping again, even after Watergate, (unintelligible word) the press\u2013\u00a0and I know the press has behaved grossly<\/em> irresponsible in many many areas, neglects the problems of the Third World, we see it every day. But when a press cannot keep its sources confidential, we\u2019re in trouble. We\u2019d\u2019ve never<\/em> heard from Deep Throat at Watergate if there hadn\u2019t been that protection. And we\u2019ve seen a couple of cases with (unintelligible names, sounds like \u201cGary Kearney and uh, Rossetti\u201d) and what they knew evidently<\/em> something about uh, conspiracy against [former President John F.] Kennedy. Boom, the moment it was revealed publicly that they were going to be witnesses, both of them ended up dead, one was shot in the neck in typically Mafia fashion, the other floating out on the Bay of Biscayne near Florida in a barrel. So we thought that this was an important issue for some people\u2013 I\u2013 I\u2013 I thought particularly they should understand that it meant nothing to us, we had no uh, following in\u2013 in uh, Fresno, it was just an issue of concern. I think some people thought we were courting the press, but on the\u2013\u00a0when you do that sort of thing, you only bring the press\u2019 uh, inquiry more<\/em> into your activities. I\u2019ve never seen so many reporters in my life since then, and going through you\u2013 like uh, uh, you know, scrutinizing you very very closely. And we were aware when we took that stand that it might be suspect, but we felt\u2013\u00a0we waited<\/em> for several days and no one seemed to take up the cudgels of this, this important<\/em> issue. There were no one\u2013\u00a0There was no one there marching.
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\nHare:<\/strong> Well, was this before the grant that you uh, gave to these church\u2013 to the\u2013 the three newspapers, the Chronicle<\/em> and\u2013
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\nJones:<\/strong> No, no, we had done<\/em> that\u2013 we had done that uh, (Stumbles over words) the Nixonian [former President Richard Nixon] period, when it was really<\/em> dangerous to support the press. Across the nation, any newsman that came in difficulty with the system \u2013 (small sneeze) excuse me \u2013 we\u2013 we immediately assisted. I think we assisted Farr to the point of four thousand four hundred dollars. But we see uh, religion should be a practical thing. We\u2013\u00a0we feel the highest worship to a deity, however you uh, you see it, should be service to your fellow man. And in reference to other churches, I think they\u2019re caught up in this futurism, and uh, honestly, I don\u2019t see how they get it out of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ said uh, petition or pray that heaven come on earth. Heaven is within you. Uh, do something with the problems of the here and now. But you hear this pie in the sky uh, stuff and futurism about the furniture of heaven and the temperature of hell, and that\u2019s where too many of our churches you know uh, are\u2013 their heads are still there, even in 1977.
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\nHare:<\/strong> With that, let me say amen, \u2018cause we\u2019re going to pause and come back in just a moment.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)
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\nHare:<\/strong> \u2013Prokes has been associate minister of the same church. As you may recall, Proposition T now calls for the election of supervisors by districts. Now the Reverend Jim Jones, a powerful moving force, as you can see \u2013 or as you can hear \u2013 in the predominantly black Fillmore area, was a prime organizer in this district, and is now facing probably exclusion from the Black Leadership Forum, and the Black Summit, two powerful political entities, because he isn\u2019t, quote, 100% black. Are you determined to make it into these organizations?
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\nJones:<\/strong> No, because I don\u2019t think they\u2019ve ever determined really what\u2019s going to take place in the community. I\u2013 I regret that they would come out with such inane uh\u2013 or such uh, stupid<\/em> positions in a time when we need coalitions so<\/em> badly, and what could very well happen when we only have black uh, population of 42%\u2013 that\u2019s the highest we have in any district. I am terribly<\/em> regretful, and I think some of them are doing it very<\/em> sincerely, but this is the stupidest<\/em> blunder that was ever made. I\u2019ve already been interviewed, I\u2019m trying to handle it very cautiously, I say this doesn\u2019t reflect on the black community and it doesn\u2019t, I\u2019ve had ministers, I\u2019ve had back\u2013 black leaders, business people who\u2019ve called, very regretful over this whole thing, uh, so it doesn\u2019t<\/em> in any way reflect on the black community. But I\u2019m afraid that the great body of uh, citizens who read this<\/em> kind of thing, that we\u2019re going to have reverse racism \u2013 as well as we can understand it \u2013 after all, 300 years of Ku Klux Klan and so forth and so on, but two wrongs will not<\/em> make a right, and we\u2019re facing some pretty difficult situations in this decade, and we\u2019re going to have to come together. There\u2019s no (unintelligible word under Hare) for it.
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\nHare:<\/strong> But do you feel this is a majority of the\u2013 the uh, black community or the leaders or\u2013 who are these people?
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\nJones: <\/strong>Oh, I know it\u2019s not the majority. (sighs) Uh, I had people came\u2013 who came out of the Black Forum and told me with disgust<\/em> some of the things that were said. I mean, people who were there. So, it isn\u2019t in\u2013 even in\u2013 in any<\/em> way uh, the majority of the\u2013 I don\u2019t\u2013 or not\u2013 it certainly\u2013 it is not all of the Black Forum.
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\nHare:<\/strong> But how\u2019d you happen to choose, you know, to locate in that particular area, as opposed to the area where Grace Cathedral is located or the Sunset or the Richmond? How\u2019d you happen to decide to bring this group together?
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\nJones: <\/strong>Well, what could we do with all those hotels, you know, and fineries? Uh, we were needed<\/em> in the Fillmore. And that\u2019s what determined our locating there.
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\nHare:<\/strong> All right, uh, Mike (unintelligible word)
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\nProkes:<\/strong> And that\u2019s why Jim insisted on living in the Fillmare\u2013 Fillmore, and uh, he believes that a pastor should live in the area that he serves. And Jim also is uh\u2013 well, he\u2013 he\u2019s\u2013 has the greatest character of any person I\u2019ve ever met, at the risk of embarrassing him here. When I came four years ago, uh, I could not believe all that I was seeing that was done for people who were poor, who were in destitute<\/em> circumstances, and I came in the church and saw people from every kind of background imaginable, whole cross-section of the human race, not just in terms of race, but in terms of religion and socio-economic, educational background. Uh, I began to look into the program and saw that uh, here was a place for people who uh, come from poor<\/em> backgrounds who had no<\/em> place else to go, because Peoples Temple has become a\u2013 a last resort for a lot of people from backgrounds of uh, crime or militancy and drugs, and\u2013 but we found that, if you offer these people \u2013 and\u2013 and so many of them are young \u2013 programs that uh, give them the chance to get involved, that occupies their time with productive things, uh, things where their talents and abilities best apply, this fills a vacuum that caused them to uh, go on drugs or commit crimes in the first place.
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\nHare:<\/strong> And now, we know these people aren\u2019t wealthy, most of your members, and yet you have Greyhound buses that uh, take children to Los Angeles for summer vacations, they go all the way to Washington D.C.\u2013
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\nJones:<\/strong> Every year.
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\nHare:<\/strong> \u2013and suddenly the representatives\u2013 Well, where do you get the funds from?
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\nJones:<\/strong> This is uh, a thing that happens with people. I don\u2019t care how poor<\/em> they are, they uh\u2013 they become very<\/em> industrious when they see things happening that serve their needs. When you\u2019ve got a free medical facility, for instance, around the clock there, under the auspices of doctors and giving free examinations, free physical therapy, Jacuzzi bath, ultrasonic treatment for uh, arthritic conditions that the poor can\u2019t afford. Free legal services and uh, nutritional food service of 1800 meals a day. People in uh\u2013 get\u2013 and you\u2019d be amazed at what little old ladies (unintelligible word), 70 years of age, seniors, they\u2019ll get out and they\u2019ll have a little project, pillow (pie?)-making or uh, uh, a bake sale, and\u2013 and it\u2019s\u2013 people just get more industrious, and\u2013 and it\u2019s really tremendous to see that. We\u2013 we get no outside help. I can\u2019t recall one donation \u2013 maybe there was a donation, someplace stuck in my mind, there might\u2019ve been one donation from a single individual \u2013 but then, it would be no more than a few hundred dollars. So I think it\u2019s the fact that when a church or any uh, service-minded organization begins to really produce, people get enthusiastic.
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\nHare:<\/strong> Well, are they tithers, or what do they do? Do they give 10% or\u2013
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\nJones:<\/strong> No, that\u2019s uh\u2013 that\u2019s not uh\u2013 No, I don\u2019t believe in that, because that can\u2019t be fair. Uh, some people on a limited income just can\u2019t afford tithing. But that\u2019s left up to them. But I imagine a good many do<\/em>, and some do more<\/em> than that. (unintelligible under Prokes) Um-hmm.
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\nProkes:<\/strong> They do it voluntarily. And they\u2013 they see where their money\u2019s going.
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\nHare:<\/strong> Is it only with money, or is it with property, is it with material possessions or with what? How do they tithe?
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\nJones:<\/strong> We\u2019ve had\u2013 we\u2019ve had some people who have uh, turned over some property. We\u2013 But uh, the majority of the people take on projects \u2013 that\u2019s where it\u2019s at \u2013
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\nHare:<\/strong> Umm-hmm.
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\nJones:<\/strong> \u2013in their own home, in their own neighborhood. Uh, as I say, a bake sale, a pie sale, a garage sale, that type of thing. They\u2019ll have their own little activity. A group of seniors here, and whatever various uh, neigh\u2013 neighborhoods they happen to reside in. And I think that<\/em> is the backbone, uh\u2013 But as\u2013 I don\u2019t think\u2013 I think this arbitrary tithing is unfair, because there\u2019s a cer\u2013 a certain aspect in the gospel that said, we should give as we are blessed and it\u2019s the duty of those that are strong to take care of those that are weak, sort of, from each according to his ability to each according to his need. They say that Marxism originated that, but I find it very intrinsic in the Judeo-Christian tradition, and I don\u2019t<\/em> like an arbitrary statement that says that you\u2019ve got<\/em> to give so much money. Some people give their time, and that\u2019s uh, more valuable to us in many ways than money on instances, in particular, when we\u2019re trying to serve 1800 people a day in a kitchen. Some of those people are giving their time. We don\u2019t salary. And if we had to salary, we just could not manage at all\u2013
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\nProkes:<\/strong> When\u2013 when they see a pastor who wears only used clothing, owns no car and\u2013
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\nHare:<\/strong> Wait just one minute. Is this suit that I see the Reverend Jim Jones in (unintelligible word), you say this is used clothing.
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\nJones:<\/strong> It\u2019s borrowed. (stumbles over words) I don\u2019t know why he\u2013 you may know more about it than I do, but I\u2013 I find you can come\u2013 buy a lot<\/em> of good things in the Salvation Army and thrift stops\u2013 uh, thrift shops around here. And uh, my wife\u2019s awfully careful about that, uh\u2013 and people often say well, why do you only have one pair of shoes, and I say, well, I only wear one at a time. And I\u2019m not knocking people who live uh, you know, in a different lifestyle than I, but my<\/em> ego is fulfilled by seeing people fed and uh\u2013 what we can help groups get liberation both here and abroad. As you may or\u2013 may be familiar, we have uh, 27,000 acres undertaking abroad in a mixed<\/em> society, black president, but a beautifully<\/em> racially-inclusive society, and uh, it\u2019s an agricultural project. Uh\u2013 Several of our members there, couple of hundred of our members. It serves many<\/em> purposes. Not only does it help feed and clothe and house the people in an emerging Third World nation, and give jobs to\u2013 I think now we\u2019re employing 91 people, but we have run into individuals who are almost lost in the asphalt jungle. And so social service agencies or judges will say, you either take them, and uh, if you\u2013 you\u2019ve got a place abroad, fine, otherwise they\u2019re going to jail. And we\u2019ve got 22 people now, young people, who were at the l\u2013 very lowest extremity, some who were kleptomaniacs<\/em>, uh, they weren\u2019t members of the parish, but uh, kleptomaniacs. I think of a child<\/em> molester. All sorts of social deviation.
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\nProkes:<\/strong> Incorrigible.
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\nJones:<\/strong> Incorrigible. That\u2019s right. Thank you. And when we put them in this new environment<\/em>\u2013 I\u2019m an environmental determinist, it\u2019s made me an environmental determinist, more<\/em> than anything\u2013
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\nHare:<\/strong> Repeat that, again, what is it, an environmental determinist?
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\nJones:<\/strong> Determinist. Yes, I believe that uh, if you\u2013 if we don\u2019t do something about the environments\u2013 they\u2019re talking about crime in the streets, you know, uh, and\u2013 I think if a lot of the youngsters saw something done more about the crime in the\u2013 in the suites<\/em>, we would see uh, a change in attitude. Opportunities are not<\/em> there. Uh, recreational opportunities. Jobs opportunities. Fifty percent of our black youth are unemployed<\/em>. And the work ethic\u2019s very strong emphasis in America, and that\u2019s (unintelligible word) it should be, but what does this do to the morale of a person\u2013 I think behind every situation you see, there\u2019s always\u2013 there\u2019s much talk about crimes of violence today, and yet only six percent of the crimes in the United States are violent<\/em>, and of that six percent, ninety percent of those crimes are happening to us, the poor white, the poor black, the Indian.
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\nHare:<\/strong> Yes, we\u2019re the victims of it.
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\nJones:<\/strong> Be\u2013\u00a0uh, uh, one case I was called in to, I didn\u2019t know them, but called me the other day. The husband has stabbed the wife. And said, he\u2019d never been violent in his life. And when I got into the situation, she said, why don\u2019t you get a job? And that was the worst thing she could\u2019ve said to him. But an understandable thing. And there\u2019s uh, drinking\u2013 typical kind of thing, we\u2019ve got a type of welfare system, I think, could stand much improvement. We give money to people instead of creating opportunities, jobs and programs, but naturally, I\u2019d be\u2013 that fellow who has not<\/em> been able to uh, meet the standards of success in American society, which is to work and produce. He gets his money, and before he gets home, he\u2013 to buy food for the family, he gonna be at the tavern quite frequently, and I think behind every bit of the crimes of violence that I\u2019ve<\/em> run into, there is a social<\/em> condition, and I\u2019m very much concerned\u2013
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\nProkes:<\/strong> Absolutely.
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\nJones:<\/strong> \u2013Uh, uh, very much concerned about this talk, we\u2019re going to bring back capital punishment, because I notice capital punishment doesn\u2019t work for the rich.
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\nHare:<\/strong> There\u2019s never uh\u2013 You\u2019re right. There\u2019s never been a deterrent\u2013 deterrent to crime either.
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\nJones:<\/strong> Neither. Neither. Thank you for that. Uh, we find that\u2013 I think it\u2019s been pretty well supported, one with fifty thousand dollars of assets has never<\/em> gone to a gas chamber or been hung or shot or electrocuted in this country. And we also find that there is a tendency today in the world towards dictatorships. Be they right or left. And often the execution later becomes a political tool to do away with dissenters. And yet you hear so many people rapping about, let\u2019s bring back, uh, capital punishment. And as you say, it is not<\/em> a deterrent. In fa\u2013\u00a0In fact, there\u2019re a whole lot of folk who are so miserable out there, they want to commit suicide like [Gary] Gilmore, and yet they\u2013 they, uh, little fearful of doing it themselves and I\u2013 I think we\u2019ll see more<\/em> of peo\u2013\u00a0more of this type of thing. They\u2019ll kill somebody or do something of a capital nature so that the state will take care of \u2018em.
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\nHare:<\/strong> (unintelligible)
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\nProkes:<\/strong> And why are there\u2013 Why are there more blacks and minorities in jails and\u2013 and prisons uh, in comparison to their uh, percentages in the population? To say that uh, you know, they\u2019re uh, that it\u2019s not<\/em> the environment, that it\u2019s
\nnot<\/em> social conditions, is to say that they\u2019re inferior<\/em>. I\u2019m not ready to buy<\/em> that. I think it\u2019s because\u2013
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\nHare:<\/strong> I refuse<\/em> to buy it. I\u2019m happy to hear you say it.
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\nProkes:<\/strong> And\u2013 and the fact that there\u2019s no jobs that, as Reverend Jones said, there\u2019s uh, over fifty percent unemployment for black, what are they going to do? They watch television, they see families with material goods uh, living comfortably, uh, material things that they can\u2019t have, so they try and get it. How\u2013 the\u2013 the only way they can is to turn to the streets<\/em>, and they\u2013 they\u2019re already in<\/em> the streets as a means of survival.
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\nHare:<\/strong> (unintelligible)
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\nJones:<\/strong> Um-hmm [Yes].
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\nHare:<\/strong> Well, this is what we\u2019re going to do. We\u2019re going to come back in just a moment, because I know that any time there\u2019s a groundswell and people who are concerned with the social movement as you are at Peoples Temple, there must be some kind of surveillance, and I noticed tonight, you didn\u2019t come in here with a battery of bodyguards, so I don\u2019t\u2013 I want to know how you move freely with the FBI, the CIA, and whoever may be infiltrating your church.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)
\n
\nHare:<\/strong> \u2013when this is over, you\u2019re going to want to know where it is \u2013 is at the corner of Geary and Fillmore, and I\u2019ll give you that exact<\/em> address, in case you really<\/em> want to see uh, Reverend Jones in action. You\u2019re hearing him tonight. Reverend Jones, before I get back to that question about surveillance, despite the oath that doctors are popular\u2013 that doctors take, they are popularly thought to be uh, to place profit above philanthropy. And yet you have doctors and lawyers who are volunteering. How<\/em> did you accomplish that?
\n
\nJones:<\/strong> Well again, we can\u2013 we can\u2019t generalize. I found some extremely sensitive people who are in the upper middle class in our church. As you mentioned, we have crossed that class barrier. We\u2019ve overcome the racial barrier.
\n
\nProkes:<\/strong> Age barrier.
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\nJones:<\/strong> Age barrier. I\u2013 Thank you for that. I uh\u2013 I see that uh, the most beautiful thing, the youth and the seniors doing things together. And uh, we\u2013 we respect our elders. That\u2019s one of the old proverbs that we hold dearly. And as a consequence, our seniors\u2013 I think we have a\u2013 the age\u2013 (Laughs) the normal age of our seniors is in the eighties, uh, we have one centenarian, she\u2019s 106, still going. And she pr\u2013 she fixes lemon pies in her little humble home.
\n
\nProkes:<\/strong> Best pies I\u2019ve ever eaten.
\n
\nHare:<\/strong> Good. (Laughs)
\n
\nJones:<\/strong> And sells them. At a hundred and six, you know. If we can just eliminate these barriers that\u2019ve uh, developed in our society between race and class, and I think Peoples Temple has gone a long way towards that, and\u2013 and as I say, you can\u2019t make generalizations. There are people in every class who are concerned about the uh, deprivation and (Stumbles over words) poor distribution of our wealth that we see so obviously before us in the country\u2013
\n
\nHare:<\/strong> And I\u2013 I know you must<\/em> pose a threat to ministers here with established so-called churches that begin at what I have often defined, the most<\/em> segregated hour in this country is 11 o\u2019clock Sunday morning, that\u2019s where you find (unintelligible under Jones)
\n
\nJones:<\/strong> Very true.
\n
\nHare:<\/strong> \u2013 churches. So I know\u2013 what\u2019s the feeling of them? Have you made enemies, or are you coming together with them? Do they view you as a threat, as sort of siphoning off membership\u2013
\n
\nJones:<\/strong> Amazingly, amazingly<\/em> enough, we are finding a number of ministers \u2013 white ministers, particularly \u2013 one ordained Baptist Church in San Leandro has done a good\u2013 a\u2013 a minister there, has done very uh, good things uh, for his people and works closely with us. We have uh, on Martin Luther King Day, the\u2013 the Council of Churches just voted that it be conducted in Peoples Temple. We had 91 ministers there. I\u2019m not saying that they were all together, you know, in terms of perspective, but there is emerging in this community that kind of concern. Black ministers of the caliber of Reverend Hall. Theologically, I don\u2019t know where he and I stand, but uh, Reverend Hall has a great empathy for people at Bethel AME.
\n
\nHare:<\/strong> Amos, yeah.
\n
\nJones:<\/strong> And uh, uh, so (Stumbles over words) It\u2019s happening. More than I\u2019ve seen it. And I think, as we see economic conditions change \u2013 and they\u2019re going to change unless there\u2019re some miracles \u2013 we\u2019ll see more unemployment, necessity\u2019s going to be the mother of invention. Folk are going to quit talking about heaven, when they\u2019re hungry, and uh, that\u2019s why I<\/em> hope the church and all agency begin to do voluntary things. We<\/em> don\u2019t want to see a violent revolution in this society. And so society\u2019s going to have to revolutionize itself from within<\/em>, or it\u2019s going to be torn apart.
\n
\nHare:<\/strong> You\u2019ve often said that uh\u2013 in your ideology, you\u2019re not uh, violent by nature, but you\u2019re pacifist, and yet you think\u2013 you tend to get things done. And usually any movement that really<\/em> has gotten off the ground, whether in this<\/em> country or in other countries, there has been a bit of bloodshed. But you<\/em> feel that that isn\u2019t necessary.
\n
\nJones:<\/strong> I would hope<\/em> it\u2019s not necessary. Now when we took uh, took up the defense of the Jewish community, uh, not long ago, when the Nazis<\/em> were emerging, not only against the Jews, it\u2019s al\u2013 they\u2019re\u2013 they\u2019re against everybody, I guess, these\u2013 these bums. But (Stumbles over words) they\u2013 they began to threaten and they\u2013 I think they thought, well, we\u2019re pacifists<\/em>. They\u2019ve forgotten certain things that Gandhi said. Gandhi said if a mad dog\u2019s running loose, uh\u2013 meaning a mad human within a society, endangering it, you don\u2019t allow that to happen. Now pacifism doesn\u2019t mean that you roll over and play dead<\/em>. Now indeed, if uh, uh, a bunch of bums come into our Temple, uh, we\u2019re not going to turn the other cheek.
\n
\nHare:<\/strong> \u2013turn the other cheek. (laughs)
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\nJones:<\/strong> We\u2019ve turned all<\/em> the cheeks we\u2019ve got anyway. And so we\u2019re\u2013 we\u2019re not\u2013 we\u2019re going to be uh\u2013 we will resist<\/em> evil. But what I\u2019m saying, we don\u2019t believe in offensive<\/em> violence, like we\u2019ve seen happening here by groups that call them\u2013 themselves the Left, bombing uh, people\u2019s homes and a\u2013 a supervisor\u2019s home, uh, endangering her children. I\u2013 I don\u2019t happen to believe these people really have a political\u2013 I think many of them are provocateurs who want to bring down the\u2013 the demo\u2013 the democratic structure. Uh, I can\u2019t\u2013 I can\u2019t see anyone in their right<\/em> mind that could think that they could convey any political message by blowing up the district attorney\u2019s car, for instance.
\n
\nHare:<\/strong> You know, I\u2019m glad you mentioned that, and even if they\u2019re listening tonight, I mean, which is probably a very dangerous thing for us to venture to say, I hope that they will know that that is not how you raise the revolutionary consciousness of people, because when acts are done to people and you do not politicize them to tell them why it is being uh, done, then what you tend to do is alienate<\/em> the people, and you try to bring on a revolution before the people are politically ready for it.
\n
\nProkes:<\/strong> Plus, you could help to create a police state.
\n
\nHare:<\/strong> Exactly. Terrorism being, you know, a result of\u2013 comes as a result of\u2013
\n
\nJones:<\/strong> I\u2019m very suspicious of it, because we\u2019ve seen it done before. Now, uh, we had an FBI man in our congregation last week, (unintelligible word, sounds like \u201cAustell\u201d) Hall recommended him, and I thought well, you can\u2019t generalize about the FBI, even, we\u2019ll uh\u2013 while I\u2019m speaking, wanted to give uh, certain pointers of how the people could be \u2013 defend themselves uh, from attack. I said, now I don\u2019t want a lot of propaganda, and I talked to him very frankly, I said I uh, think it\u2019s deplorable what the FBI did, according to the media, to Dr. King, to try even what it seemed to be, to arrange his suicide by giving a lot of information to his wife and threatening him, and all those dirty tricks, uh, I went through it for three hours, he surely had to endure a great deal, I had Joe Hall, NAACP, who\u2019s a fine chap, uh, and different black leaders staying there and we\u2013 we really interrogated him. But then I looked at his program, and I thought, well, we didn\u2019t think of it, uh\u2013 little guidance for instance about how you can avoid burglary, things you can do to avoid being uh, a\u2013 a victim of mugging. That isn\u2019t going to take the social economic conditions away that caused<\/em> them, but I don\u2019t believe in prejudice against anybody. So we let him speak, and the man came off very\u2013 with a great deal of understanding \u2013 shockingly enough \u2013 an empathy and ashamed<\/em> of what the FBI had done, and I really believe sincerely he did not know of the dirty tricks. Someway he\u2013 he was a younger man, of course, and I don\u2019t know what caused me to mention that. Now, what was the point?
\n
\nHare:<\/strong> Maybe it was (unintelligible word under Jones) the issue of the FBI, the CIA and people like that, just being involved in your church.
\n
\nJones:<\/strong> We were talking about violence. Uh\u2013 uh\u2013 But we\u2013 we tend to turn\u2013 we tend to turn people away by acts of terror, and as I started to say, the FBI \u2013 this is what I was getting at \u2013\u00a0the FBI, uh, I think<\/em>, you know, it was oh, several years ago, set up, as I recall reading, a\u2013 an organization known as US, uh, it now come out, and as to when the Panthers began to talk about more internationalism and uh, racial inclusiveness, and working within the system<\/em>, uh, all this uh, hell-raising begun. And US was talking in the same terms that some people are talking right today in San Francisco, we can\u2019t cooperate with any others, we\u2013 we have to be black only, and we\u2019re going to have to define what black is, and now<\/em> we find out that behind all those black-only was white establishment plans to divide\u2013
\n
\nHare:<\/strong> Yes, that was in Los Angeles, too.
\n
\nJones:<\/strong> \u2013and it caused\u2013\u00a0yes, and it caused the death of several Panthers. So I\u2019m suspicious<\/em> of these people who want to divide when the community could really come together in San Francisco. Now we hear all this talk s\u2013 behind some of this, I wonder if we don\u2019t have a nice agent provocateur.
\n
\nHare:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019m wondering what are the reasons also that when blacks really cried out for uh, black films, you know, some value in black studies and black literature, we didn\u2019t get it. And suddenly, ABC \u2013 that certainly is not a paragon of liberalism \u2013 gave us Roots<\/em>, and bombarded our homes with it for eight nights straight. Do you begin to wonder about those kinds of things? You don\u2019t have to answer if you don\u2019t wish.
\n
\nJones:<\/strong> I\u2019m never one to shun a response. I think that uh, uh, anytime we see the establishment producing such uh\u2013 a s\u2013 historical document, it\u2013 it\u2013 it\u2019s shock<\/em>. Uh, perhaps their motivation was good. I imagine the major motivation was, they knew they made money, and they did. Um\u2013 Overall, I can see some good that has emerged. I\u2019ve talked to white people who have gotten the consciousness that they never had. Un\u2013 Unfortunately, I think that there are some who thought well, I watched it, and now I\u2013 I understand and I care, and it\u2019ll be forgotten. Also, there\u2019s a dangerous aspect, they called it\u2013 I believed [Alex] Haley wrote\u2013 it was a saga<\/em> of an American family, but I notice ABC called it the triumph<\/em> of America\u2013
\n
\nHare:<\/strong> Triumph of\u2013 of an American family. That\u2019s what disturbs me. Not only was the saga, but also probably of one<\/em> black American family. Now they\u2019re calling a tragedy an American triumph. Now look at the people who will not read the subtleties as you\u2019ve read that. And see, we will\u2013 are going to now go back ten or fifteen more years, just because of this, because of Roots<\/em>. I\u2019m not that concerned of where I came from, but where are we now and where are we going<\/em>?
\n
\nJones:<\/strong> Oh, that was exactly<\/em> what I said Sunday. And who are (unintelligible under Hare)<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/strong> Were you thrown out of your church for saying that?
\n
\nJones:<\/strong> No. But who in the\u2013\u00a0who of us have gotten money to go back to Africa to find out where we came from? And again, it\u2019s not so important where<\/em> we\u2019ve come from, but where we\u2019re going. I\u2019m an American mongrel. Hell, if I began to look w\u2013 where my roots were, I\u2019d\u2013 I\u2019d have to spend a million dollars to find my roots. I\u2019m not going to start on that<\/em> course. And then just because one person found his roots<\/em>, that\u2019s not going to help the millions<\/em> of people who do not have roots. A person\u2013
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\nHare:<\/strong> Not only black people, because we\u2013 we live in a rootless society.
\n
\nJones:<\/strong> Yes, yes. That\u2019s true. That\u2019s what I tried to say.
\n
\nHare:<\/strong> I\u2019m sure that if you poll the average white person, they wouldn\u2019t know, you know, from whence they came. But somehow this was fed to us that we had to move on with it. When you took the people to Washington, D.C., uh, what were the\u2013\u00a0really the motives for it. Did you want them to see how their representatives worked there in Congress for them, and were the representatives intimidated at your presence?
\n
\nJones:<\/strong> Uh, no\u2013 uh, certainly uh, the Burtons [John Burton and Philip Burton] were very responsive, and so\u2013 strangely enough, a very conservative man by the name of [Don] Clauson, I thought, was most responsive. Uh, I was shocked<\/em>. You never can\u2013\u00a0You never know what uh, to make of people\u2013\u00a0when you start to generalize. Here, uh, recently, we\u2013 we\u2019ve seen\u2013\u00a0When I met with Mrs. [Rosalynn] Carter, I uh\u2013\u00a0she asked to meet with me just before the election. I\u2019m not partisan in politics, but I suppose because of our size, we got 9000 members, and I said, uh\u2013\u00a0she said, well, what would you like to see come out of the administration? I began to talk about uh, interventionist policies in Chile, this horrible<\/em> thing uh, that we\u2019ve no\u2013 admitted that we\u2019ve played a role in, the murder of an el\u2013 a duly-elected man [Salvador Allende], they talk, uh, about fear of totalitarian communism, and yet here was a\u2013 a socialist that was elected by the people and was trying to maintain a democratic course and included non-socialist, liberal, progressive elements, and he ends up murdered<\/em> with our assistance. I said uh, the interventionism in the Third World\u2019s got to\u2013 interventionist policies got to stop. And we see Carter\u2013\u00a0he kept his word<\/em> on that. Uh, the name that was thrown around, [Theodore] Sorensen, was put in as the CIA director, and woe<\/em> be unto us, we see a liberal<\/em> coalition block Sorensen\u2019s appointment. I said, we ought to stop giving aid to Chile, and uh, again, the shocker. All<\/em> the liberal cats, uh, the dudes went along<\/em> with it, and three Republicans voted against the uh, fifty-five million dollar assistance that was given a couple of weeks ago. It blows my mind. You don\u2019t know where\u2013 you\u2013\u00a0you can\u2019t possibly say that uh, this group of uh, coalition\u2019s going to consistently\u2013 consistently stand for the right things. All of a sudden, up comes a conservative and stands uh, more resolutely for uh, decency than the\u2013 the so-called liberals. Tha\u2013 That\u2019s why I refused to get involved in the partisan two-party system.
\n
\nHare:<\/strong> Well, one reason I refuse to get involved in it \u2013 I\u2019ve often made the same statement that you have made, and people have wondered about it \u2013 uh, I am really afraid too much\u2013 of too much liberal thinking. I prefer people almost to the extremes. You know, you either a\u2013 stand for something or you are (unintelligible word) opposed to it, because at least I know how<\/em> to fight you or how<\/em> to address you or how to talk with you. But the liberals tend to be on the fence. When the going gets rough, they tend to fall to the side of the fence that seems to have\u2013 well, that seems to be the strongest. In\u2013 You mentioned uh, Mrs. Carter, and I wondered about that when she came out. There\u2019re a lot of ministers here, there\u2019re a lot of people here who would love to\u2019ve had her ear, but yet she requested yours for dinner. What was the reason for that?
\n
\nJones:<\/strong> I should imagine it\u2019s votes. To be very pragmatic\u2013
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\nHare:<\/strong> Well, there are many people she could\u2019ve asked, but \u2013\u00a0don\u2019t be modest \u2013\u00a0she asked you<\/em>.
\n
\nJones:<\/strong> Well, again, there\u2019re not so many people that have that many members. I think we\u2019re the largest church in town. Uh\u2013 I think<\/em> she had mentioned s\u2013 hearing something of, of uh, our human service program. I can\u2019t recall what it was\u2013
\n
\nProkes:<\/strong> About drugs?
\n
\nJones:<\/strong> Yes. Having to do with drug rehabilitation. Thank you. And of course you know, Mr. Carter come couple of s\u2013 years before to Delancey Street<\/a>, so there must be a pu\u2013 uh, a certain sensitivity there. Uh, his uh, his arch-fundamentalism \u2013 or what appeared to be arch-foundamentalism\u2013 uh, fundamentalism \u2013 gave me some concerns<\/em> when he was elected president. But some of the nominations he\u2019s made, at least in terms of foreign relations<\/em>, the SALT, the gentleman for the director of SALT, uh, who\u2019s having a tough time because he said that he would make every effort to bring d\u00e9tente in this thermo-nuclear age, when we can wipe out all of civilization and it looks like he<\/em> might not get\u2013 make it. Uh, the man see\u2013\u00a0And Andy Young. I\u2019ve known Andy Young to be extremely sensitive, at least in the early seventies in the struggle, of course people change, I don\u2019t uh, know, I see he\u2019s has now made three statements in the recent days that show that Andy\u2019s still in the\u2013 coming from the same stock when he said that in Angola, in spite of what we may feel about Cuba, that they stabilize situations, and of course he got slapped down by Mr. [Cyrus] Vance over<\/em> it, but I notice even Mr. Vance uh, the Secretary of State, saying, was it yesterday, that uh, we\u2019re going to have better relations with Cuba, which is long, long overdue. I\u2019ve been to Cuba. I have seen in Cuba a different form of communism than what has been depicted uh, to me in Eastern Europe. And uh, I disagree with uh, Mr. Cleaver, I did not recognize racism there. Um\u2013\u00a0Sure, there are certain facets of Cuban life that wouldn\u2019t work for America, that\u2019s why we gotta get out of this thing. One solution that will work for Cuba will not work for America. But I saw a tremendous<\/em> amount of individual liberty. I was shocked<\/em> at the amount of individual liberty. And a great deal of criticism<\/em> \u2013 of course, within a socialist perspective \u2013 but criticism of the government. Uh, no fear of the government. That<\/em> was pleasant to me, to see no fear. And the standard of living, compared to un\u2013 being under [Fulgencio] Batista is like comparing night to day<\/em>. Uh, health care guaranteed, and uh, the standard of dress. I thought I was in the best neighborhood, you know, the best neighborhood of an American city. I noticed uh, Senator [George] McGovern\u2019s children have been there for some weeks, and they\u2019ve been saying the same things. Cuba is American in its orientation, it\u2019s American in its culture, its appreciation of the arts. I don\u2019t know what this stupid boycott uh, is\u2013 is going to do at all for us. I think that uh, with a bit of effort, we could be allies, and they could be of tremendous<\/em> help to us. Their standard of moral sensitivity, uh, their cultural progress, their progress in health, high schools there just amazed<\/em> me, uh, they\u2019ll have\u2013 they limit 500 students to a high school, the high school\u2019s put on an acreage of 500, they have 500 acres allotted to a high school, kids not only uh, work with their mind in the intellectual processes, but they\u2013 they spend three hours a day working in the fields<\/em>. And they develop their own food, which gives them a real sense of\u2013 of fulfillment, plus<\/em> \u2013\u00a0so there won\u2019t be division, and Cuba is very much opposed to dividing on the basis of race or religion \u2013 they produce for the national economy<\/em>. And uh, being a clergyman, I was concerned about freedom of religion. And I didn\u2019t take any guided tour, because I\u2013 when I go into a situation, I want to be uninhibited. And uh, I haven\u2019t found anything perfect in society, and certainly not Cuba either\u2013 either. But I talked to 400 different people from every strata of life, uh, professional people, people who\u2019ve been poor as Job\u2019s turkey, and I found no dissatisfaction. But we\u2019re going to have to learn to relate<\/em> in this world, we\u2019re going to blow ourselves up. We\u2019ve got to overcome these ideological barriers. At home, certainly\u2013 we\u2019ve got to begin with home. I\u2013 I don\u2019t\u2013 I didn\u2019t mean to get on the uh, subject of Cuba. We\u2019ve got to come together in this<\/em> United States first.
\n
\nHare:<\/strong> All right, we\u2019re going to come back in just a minute and continue this profile of Reverend Jim Jones.<\/p>\n

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\nHare:<\/strong> Welcome back to Reactions<\/em> and our discussion with the Reverend Jim Jones and Michael Prokes of the Peoples Temple. Such an appropriately named church.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/strong> Julia, I just wanted to add that when Reverend Jones met with Mrs. Carter, he didn\u2019t spend his time talking or complimenting her or praising her husband, he talked about issues and needs in the poor and black communities.
\n
\nJones:<\/strong> Free press, too. I was greatly concerned about what the stands were going to be on the free press. We came to the rally for one rea\u2013\u00a0we were all wearing uh, badges at the time, it was during that Fresno crisis, and it said free\u2013 Free the Fresno Four. So I acquainted her with that.
\n
\nHare:<\/strong> Well, since uh, your church has been entered into the Congressional Record<\/em> recently, uh, a whole page is so devoted to it, uh, there are those who may feel that you have political aspirations, even with ramifications for the Black Leadership Forum. Are you interested in that, becoming a supervisor?
\n
\nJones:<\/strong> Not\u2013 unequivocally no. And you\u2019re very sensitive to perceive, that\u2019s the whole issue of those few that didn\u2019t want me in the forum because I\u2019m lighter-skin, even though I\u2019ve a mixed background. Uh\u2013 uh, they\u2019re afraid<\/em>, uh, so I\u2019ve been told reliably, that I\u2019m going to be<\/em> the next supervisor of the Western Addition or promote<\/em> a supervisor. We\u2019re not even promoting a candidate within our church, because we want unity so<\/em> badly that, even though we have thousands of people and had black leaders, a bl\u2013 a newspaper publisher [Carlton Goodlett], uh, professional people who, outside of our parish who suggested that we do<\/em> that, we feel for the sake of unity, we will stay out of the arena, and as for me being a supervisor, in all due respects to uh\u2013 to the supervisors, I\u2019m not the type of personality for it. We have to have some<\/em> people outside the system, pointing at its errors. And I feel that\u2019s my role, presently at least. I\u2013\u00a0I wouldn\u2019t be able to work within the two-party structure, so I have no<\/em> political ambitions, and this foolishness of the rumor that I\u2019m going to be a mayor, or\u2013\u00a0I mean, throw my hat in for the mayor, I have no intentions of running for any<\/em> elected office. And that is absolutely so.
\n
\nHare:<\/strong> Is that just here in the city, or is it\u2013 do you mean to set a statewide level or nationally or\u2013
\n
\nJones:<\/strong> Yes, I\u2013 I\u2013 I don\u2019t think that there\u2019s a place for as free a thinker as I am at this stage. I hope I\u2019m wrong<\/em>. I would serve<\/em>, of course, if I could<\/em> serve. But it seems to me that when a man speaks, as I just spoke, about Cuba, uh, mention that you\u2019ll go to Cuba, because of d\u00e9tente \u2013 I must say, while I was at Cuba, I also mentioned to them, highly-idealistic people, their intervention in Angola was greatly appreciated \u2013\u00a0but I\u2013 as I warned<\/em> them, I said Uncle Sam is in a kind of a bad state of mind<\/em> these days, he\u2019s sort of a little bit like the man who went through the menopause and uh, once was the most attractive guy around town, the most potent guy around town, but he\u2019s lost his girlfriends in Vietnam, and he\u2019s lost in Cambodia and Angola and a lot of places in the world, and I said, he\u2019s a dangerous creature because we read a few weeks ago of a man who uh, gone through that very uh, period and uh, suspected then that his wife was having an extramarital affair, and he ended up killing her and killed the grandchildren \u2013 not at my church, but uh\u2013 (Struggles for words) not too far removed from our community \u2013 and he wiped out everyone<\/em>, and I said uh, to the Cubans, I said, you\u2019re going to have to be very careful with your idealism, because it is a realistic fact that America is sick<\/em>. It\u2019s disturbed<\/em>, as anyone would be that has had great power, and misused it unfortunately, but then see that power removed<\/em> suddenly, lose all that potential, that potency, that attraction, uh, America has had so many reverses. I was amazed that they got by with Angola, and I asked them what\u2013 well, what will you do if you\u2019re asked into Zimbabwe, and they said, well, we\u2019ve not been asked<\/em>. But if it was a populist reaction<\/em>, we\u2019d have to go. I said, don\u2019t you realize that that could bring about thermonuclear war<\/em>, and they said\u2013 one little lady in the Central Committee said to me, we all have to die sometime. You can\u2019t start compromising your principles. You have to live by your principles. And I hope that America wi\u2013 is aware<\/em> of that, that Cubans are not the type of people you will change by bluffing, no more than you\u2019re going to change America. And we do have some realistic difficulties out there. We need\u2013\u00a0We need a new change in foreign relations, we\u2019re going to have to have dialogue, we\u2019ve got to have disarmament, my God, uh, (Struggles for words) every minute it\u2019s increasing, the dangers of war by accident, and no<\/em> one wins in a thermonuclear war, and uh, I\u2019m all for Carter\u2019s efforts to uh, (Struggles for words) re-emphasis of moral values, rather than thinking pragmatically whether we have uh, two more missiles than the Soviet Union. In the first place, if we had just a limited number<\/em> of missiles, it\u2019s enough uh, of a deterrent.
\n
\nHare:<\/strong> You know, millions of people visit Washington, D.C. every year. But why did your church get the tourist of the year award?
\n
\nJones:<\/strong> Well, The Washington Post<\/em> gave us that, because when we go in to any area, we\u2013 we\u2019re ecology-minded, and so we cleaned up that uh, little uh, pool<\/em> that they have, and uh, it was a terrible thing that many tourists come in to the city, they throw all their paper and their debris\u2013
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\nHare:<\/strong> You mean, you literally got out and cleaned\u2013
\n
\nJones:<\/strong> We got in it. We got inside<\/em> that pool, some of us 70 and 80 years of age\u2013
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\nProkes:<\/strong> Rolled up their pant legs.
\n
\nJones:<\/strong> \u2013rolled up the pant legs and got in there and cleaned<\/em> that city up like it\u2019d not been cleaned up.<\/p>\n

End of tape<\/strong><\/p>\n

Tape originally posted January 2011<\/b><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Tape transcribed by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you. To return to the Tape Index, click here. To listen to MP3, click here. To read the Tape Summary, click here. (Short newscast unrelated to Peoples Temple) Hare: Welcome to Reactions. Maybe I shouldn\u2019t have used […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":6,"featured_media":0,"parent":27291,"menu_order":394,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-27489","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27489","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/6"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=27489"}],"version-history":[{"count":6,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27489\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":128933,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27489\/revisions\/128933"}],"up":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27291"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=27489"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}