{"id":27503,"date":"2013-06-16T00:20:39","date_gmt":"2013-06-16T00:20:39","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/alternativejonestown.com\/?page_id=27503"},"modified":"2024-10-25T10:20:42","modified_gmt":"2024-10-25T17:20:42","slug":"q627","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=27503","title":{"rendered":"Q627 Transcript"},"content":{"rendered":"

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.<\/strong><\/i><\/p>\n

To return to the Tape Index, click here<\/a>.
\nTo read the Tape Summary, click here<\/a>. Listen to MP3 (Pt. 1<\/a>, Pt. 2<\/a>).<\/p>\n

[Editor’s note<\/strong>: The Temple’s transcript of this tape appears here<\/a>.]<\/em><\/p>\n

Part 1:<\/b><\/p>\n

Julia Hare:<\/b> What I\u2019m about to introduce\u2013\u00a0You know there\u2019s a church here in San Francisco, and the press has said this about it. It helped to keep open a medical clinic in San Francisco which otherwise would\u2019ve closed. It benefited the search in the medical fields of cancer, heart disease and sickle cell anemia. It has also supported educational broadcasting such as KQED, and provided emergency cash to distressed families, particularly those of slain law enforcement officers. I could go on and on with the list of what it has done, but the name of this church is the Peoples Temple Christian Church. I don\u2019t know why \u201cChristian\u201d is there, but the minister will tell us about it very soon, because I think it\u2019s sort of inter-denominational. But the man behind this many-faceted church is the Reverend Jim Jones, and I\u2019d like to welcome you to Reactions<\/i> tonight.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Thank you very much.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> And I\u2019d also<\/em> like to welcome um, Michael Prokes, who is an associate<\/em> minister of the same church, who\u2019s also as modest<\/em> as Reverend Jones. But tonight we\u2019re going to just throw that aside and let them actually tell us some of the things that they\u2019re going to do. Now, Reverend Jones, I\u2019d like to begin with this: You\u2019re probably the only man in the world who could bring together in one room at the same time Eldridge Cleaver and Kathleen [Cleaver], Assemblyman Willie Brown, the John Birch Society, Lieutenant Governor Mervyn Dymally, Mayor [George] Moscone, the police chief Charles Gain, District Attorney Joseph Freitas. And most people would wonder, who did that? President [Jimmy] Carter? God? But I found it wasn\u2019t them, it was you<\/em>. How did you bring these entities together?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I really can\u2019t say, other than I suppose that we have a common concern for justice with people, and of course, Cleaver at the time, there was some question\u2013 a great deal of alienation because of his views, and Peoples Temple felt that a person should not be judged because of their views, and we did come to his legal defense. That was not to say that I supported his ideology, but uh, that is probably some explanation. We supported John Bircher once who was being discriminated against, John Bircher who, contrary to all the opinions I\u2019d been told about the Birch Society, he was not a racist, and uh, uh, that\u2013 I think that explains it. We\u2013 We don\u2019t have uh\u2013 an arbitrary attitude of serving only people who agree with us. And that may<\/em> explain some of it.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> You happen to remind me of someone [Nathan Hare] with whom I have lived for a number of years<\/em>, when he taught at a predominantly black school, some of the students asked, why would you bring a member of the John Birch Society in to address your class? But he said that the only way you will grow is to be exposed to all ideologies. So I\u2019m glad to know that that\u2019s existing here in San Francisco. Now uh, something else that you\u2019ve done that I don\u2019t<\/em> really understand. Your church is located in somewhat of a transient area in predominantly a black district.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Indeed. Indeed.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> Uh, many<\/em> people have tried before you to bring the grass roots together, the so-called\u2013 the black bourgeoisie, the uh, national uh, state and local elected officials to begin to see that the struggle lies in really<\/em> bringing together all these people instead of one predominantly ethnic group. Now how have you been able to do this?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Again, I\u2013 one doesn\u2019t think about their successes, I gather, they\u2019re more concerned about the failures<\/em>. We preach inclusiveness very strongly. We preach that\u2013 or we speak<\/em>, we uh, state that it\u2019s very important that all<\/em> people who have been to some degree left out of the uh, process of economic success, that we get together, that we unite in the common struggle. And that\u2019s very important to us. We also are determined<\/em> to see that there is a good attitude on the part of the majority members, the Caucasoids who are in our attendance, that they have proper attitude, understanding of the problems of the Third World. But we don\u2019t compromise on our principles in any way in concern uh, for the struggle of the Third World people. But we have a number of good white people that we jokingly say are very well field niggerized.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/strong> How about that. I love that expression. (Laughs softly) Well, how did you uh\u2013\u00a0Where\u2013\u00a0what were you doing when the struggle was going on between just the Asians and just the blacks or just the Chicanos. Uh, you were here in this area, but somehow you were low profile. Why are you just now surfacing?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> We\u2013 we were not here as a center. You see, it\u2019s only been in the last um, two years that I have been located in San Francisco. I was serving in the northern part of California, in an agricultural community, which was the biggest mistake of my life.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> Why was it a mistake?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (Laughs) Well, there\u2019s not enough uh\u2013 there were not enough people representative of all groups and uh\u2013 an agricultural community is a little more sterile. I\u2019m frankly a little bit afraid of what\u2019s happening in agricultural communities these days. Having a multi-racial family, uh, I noticed a great deal of prejudice. Not only anti-black feeling, but anti-Semitic feeling, and it\u2019s on the increase across America. And we need to get alarmed about it. All people who have ever suffered any kind of oppression or discrimination need to reckon with this factor. After all, in the past few months, we\u2019ve seen blacks run out of Taft. We\u2019ve seen Indians um, mistreated terribly in different areas, and even our p\u2013 our own state, blacks burned out of Siskiyou County, we had buses surrounded, just because we had black drivers, in Sonoma County. And fortunately the court\u2013 a good judge for the first time come up against this racist element, but they are\u2013 they are there<\/em>, very very much there in the outlying areas of the big uh\u2013 big cities, and certainly our metropolitan areas are not<\/em> free of racism.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/strong> Well, unlike the white popular thought that the church has been a leader in the black community \u2013 it has led<\/em>, but I have questions about the nature of the leadership \u2013 but in your<\/em> church, somehow, you\u2019ve brought together uh, the militants, the agnostics, the uh, atheists, the fundamentalists. How have you gotten all these people together?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> In our worship style, we respect people based on what they produce<\/em>, and that\u2019s [of] course consistent with Moses\u2019 teasing\u2013 teachings and Jesus\u2019 teachings. Uh\u2013\u00a0Judge a tree by the fruit it bears. So uh, if an atheist does the works of all these great teachers through history of all the religions and uh, the fundamentalist does the work, lives a life of character and concern and shows compassion, we find that we can get along very well. Because Jesus said, he who\u2019s not against me, is on my part. When one of his disciples came up to him early in the ministry, when all the followers that Jesus had were with him, so it had to be someone of another faith, Islam or Hebrew teaching, or some other, Zoroastrianism, who uh\u2013 who knows. But John said, what\u2019re we going to do with this gang. They\u2019re not with<\/em> Jesus. He said, they\u2019re not against me. They\u2019re for me. And so I think we\u2019re doing what uh, Jesus really\u2013 he was in a sense a great revolutionary. And I think we\u2019ve neglected that aspect of Jesus\u2019 teaching. When he judged<\/em> people\u2013 in Matthew 25, the only judgment that ever came out of the mouth of the Nazarene was, I was hungry and you didn\u2019t feed me, I was thirsty, you gave me no drink, I was a stranger, you didn\u2019t take me in. I was in prison, oppressed, and you didn\u2019t do something to get me out of that condition. They said what\u2013\u00a0when did we see you there? He said, in that you saw the least<\/em> of suffering humanity there, you saw me. And so you didn\u2019t<\/em> help them. Now depart from me. I never knew you.<\/b><\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> Well, how is it that uh, in your membership uh\u2013\u00a0Well, first, what do you think is the failure of the black ministers, why they haven\u2019t been able to organize people to do the kinds of things you did? Because I understand that it was your church, which you have a lot of grassroots people there who were responsible, uh partially responsible, for freeing the four uh, reporters in Fresno.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> That\u2019s true. I think particularly so there. We uh, we heard indirectly from a jurist that there was going to be adamancy on that issue, and then when we uh, introduced the pe\u2013\u00a0couple of thousand, with Farr, we had over three thousand\u2013\u00a0uh, ju\u2013 uh, Farr [newsman Bill Farr] rather, in Los Angeles. But one of the jurists said, I guess I\u2019m going to have to\u2013 we\u2019re going to have to get a\u2013 get a\u2013 a judge to do something about this to get all these niggers out of town. And that was of course a compliment to us. Uh\u2013 the press is the people, and we felt uh, that a very basic issue here creeping again, even after Watergate, they were going to tell the press\u2013\u00a0and I know the press has behaved grossly<\/em> irresponsible in many many areas, neglects the problems of the Third World, we see it every day. But when a press cannot keep its sources confidential, we\u2019re in trouble. We\u2019d\u2019ve never<\/em> heard from Deep Throat at Watergate if there hadn\u2019t been that protection. And we\u2019ve seen a couple of cases, Datani, Roselli and what they knew evidently<\/em> something about the conspiracy against [former President John F.] Kennedy. Boom, the moment it was revealed publicly that they were going to be witnesses, both of them ended up dead, one was shot in the neck in typically Mafia fashion, the other floating out on the Bay of Biscayne near Florida in a barrel. So we thought that this was an important issue for some people\u2013 I\u2013 I\u2013 I thought particularly they should understand that it meant nothing to us, we had no uh, following in\u2013 in uh, Fresno, it was just an issue of concern. I think some people thought we were courting the press, but on the\u2013\u00a0when you do that sort of thing, you only bring the press\u2019 uh, inquiring more<\/em> into your activities. I\u2019ve never seen so many reporters in my life since then, and going through you\u2013 like uh, uh, you know, scrutinizing you very very closely. And we were aware when we took that stand that it might be suspect, but we felt\u2013\u00a0we waited<\/em> for several days and no one seemed to take up the cudgels of this, this important<\/em> issue. There were no one\u2013\u00a0There was no one there marching.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/strong> Well, was this before the grant that you uh, gave to these church\u2013 to the\u2013 the three newspapers, the Chronicle<\/em> and\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> No, no, we had done<\/i> that\u2013 we had done that uh, (Stumbles over words) the Nixonian [former President Richard Nixon] period, when it was really<\/i> dangerous to support the press. Across the nation, any newsman that came in difficulty with the system \u2013 (small sneeze) excuse me \u2013 we\u2013 we immediately assisted. I think we assisted Farr to the point of four thousand four hundred dollars. But we see uh, religion should be a practical thing. We\u2013\u00a0we feel the highest worship to a deity, however you uh, you see it, should be service to your fellow man. And in reference to other churches, I think they\u2019re caught up in this futurism, and uh, honestly, I don\u2019t see how they get it out of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ said uh, petition or pray that heaven come on earth. Heaven is within you. Uh, do something with the problems of the here and now. But you hear this pie in the sky uh, stuff and futurism about the furniture of heaven and the temperature of hell, and that\u2019s where too many of our churches you know uh, are\u2013 their heads are still there, even in 1977.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> With that, let me say amen, \u2018cause we\u2019re going to pause and come back in just a moment. (Off air) That pie in the sky bit just used to kill me. As long as someone has said, uh, you know, like it\u2019s here, and you decide where it\u2019s going to be\u2013 What did you say, that uh, you don\u2019t tell them about the furnishings of heaven or the temperature of hell.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> I hope you heard that, (unintelligible name), so you\u2019ll stop running at the (unintelligible word)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> I hope you heard that comment that he does not tell his followers about the uh, furnishings of heaven or the temperature of hell, so that your kids can grow up healthy. See, out at that suburban community where he is, they\u2019re telling him that she must store your goods because when you leave here\u2013 I\u2019m glad that you\u2019re telling the people that it\u2019s\u2013 it\u2019s here<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Too soft)<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

(Laughter)<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> (unintelligible phrase), they told me that they didn\u2019t know at the time. And they\u2019re absolutely right. The former (unintelligible word) director said he didn\u2019t know at the time who you were. But do you know that a lot of\u2013 another station, that when this is over, I\u2019m out. You know.<\/p>\n

\n

Part 2:<\/b><\/p>\n

Phone dialing<\/p>\n

Rings<\/p>\n

Ida Ray:<\/b> Hello.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Is Ida Ray there?<\/p>\n

Ida Ray:<\/b> Speaking.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Hi, this is Mike Prokes.<\/p>\n

Ida Ray:<\/b> Hi, Mike, how are you.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Fine. I think I\u2019ve (exhale) uh, traced down what was said, and uh, I talked to a couple of people. It was agreed that he was responding to a question, and he was<\/i> interviewed by uh, uh,\u00a0Julia Hare.<\/p>\n

Ida Ray:<\/b> Oh, really?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah. And her question was that, you know, you\u2013 you, Jim, were not considered for membership in the Black Leadership Forum, because uh, you\u2019re not totally one hundred percent black. Are you determined to make it into<\/i> this organization? And Jim uh, evidently responded by saying, I don\u2019t want to go where I\u2019m not wanted. He felt that it was a blunder<\/i> on the part of the Black Leadership Forum to exclude him because, he said, it plays right into the hands of the system, which is trying to keep, you know, blacks and minorities divided in order to keep them oppressed. And he didn\u2019t feel there was a\u2013 a majority opposed<\/i> to him, however, based on reports of discussions about him by\u2013\u00a0by forum members. And so I asked Jim uh, today, if he had said, you know, it uh, that<\/i>, and he admitted that he did uh, you know, call it a blunder on part of the\u2013\u00a0the forum. But uh, you know, uh, I gave him the background on this, and he was upset with me, because uh\u2013\u00a0see this\u2013\u00a0I\u2013\u00a0I called Doris uh, in response to uh, uh, a meeting where he spoke at the uh, Officers for Justice, and you know, they\u2013\u00a0he was received very well. In fact, they gave him a long ovation, and he was approached afterward, uh, and so uh, I called Doris and I\u2013 I thought that uh, she had mentioned having a get-together where, you know, Jim could possibly uh, speak uh, to some, you know, black leaders. And at first<\/i>, you know, this is at a previous conversation, I thought she had meant like an informal gathering, I didn\u2019t uh, know that she had meant the Black Leadership Forum, but I had\u2013 I had kind of left it up to her<\/i>, you know, which would uh, be best, and uh, I did this on my own, \u2018cause I thought it would be good for, you know, them just to hear Jim and see where he\u2019s at and uh, alleviate any rumors or just get things straight. But he was uh, kind of upset, he said, you know, don\u2019t push these people. If they don\u2019t, you know, want me to come, he said, that\u2019s fine<\/i>. He said, uh, I just want uh, to mainly alleviate the rumor that I\u2019m politically<\/i>-motivated. I\u2019m not going to run for any office, and have no intentions to, and he says he\u2013 he feels that uh, you know, people\u2013\u00a0or there\u2019s cer\u2013 certain people are needed to stay on the outside and point to the errors within. And so uh, I told him I wouldn\u2019t uh, push it any further. But uh, uh, that was in essence what the situation is.<\/p>\n

Ida Ray:<\/b> Oh, well, I didn\u2019t\u2013 you know how I\u2013 like I told you, I didn\u2019t hear<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Ida Ray:<\/b> I didn\u2019t hear, but I got uh\u2013\u00a0Well, everybody<\/i> got phone calls, you know. And no one\u2013 They\u2013\u00a0All they would say that the\u2013 he was on uh, Julia Hare, on the same station Julia Hare, you know. But you know, they\u2013\u00a0no one ever said it was the interview which is\u2013\u00a0it\u2019s\u2013\u00a0it\u2019s\u2013 I<\/i> don\u2019t care.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Ida Ray:<\/b> You know. I\u2019m just sorry that the thing got bl\u2013\u00a0blowed totally<\/i> out of perspective.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah, well, uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Ida Ray:<\/b> That\u2019s too bad. (balance unintelligible under Prokes)<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> The reports I got were that\u2013 that it wasn\u2019t<\/i> uh, you know\u2013 they didn\u2019t<\/i> dwell on it. It was an hour interview or so\u2013\u00a0and they didn\u2019t dwell on this aspect of it. It was just handled within like a\u2013 you know, like uh, a minute or so, and uh \u2013 just look at my notes here \u2013\u00a0he said, stupid blunder. That\u2019s what uh\u2013 what I have. He did admit that he\u2013 he thinks he\u2013 that\u2019s probably what he said, something like that. So. But uh, it\u2019s uh, uh, something that\u2013 that\u2013 you know, that\u2019s the rumor we kept getting, that\u2013\u00a0that people felt that he was trying to gain power to run for office<\/i> or something, and in fact, we have been approached, you know, to run somebody for supervisor, and uh, you know, we\u2019re not even going to do that<\/i>. I mean, some people wanted like Johnny Brown or somebody, you know, black to run, but uh, he\u2013 he\u2019s trying<\/i> to\u2013\u00a0and we\u2019re trying to alleviate this idea that\u2013<\/p>\n

Ida Ray:<\/b> The political stuff.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Right. \u2018Cause we\u2019re going to stay out of all partisan politics whatsoever.<\/p>\n

Ida Ray:<\/b> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It\u2019ll kill ya. Really.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> But uh\u2013 yeah\u2013<\/p>\n

Ida Ray:<\/b> I<\/i> think uh\u2013 Yvonne called me today. Yvonne Golden. And uh, she\u2019s been working very diligently within<\/i> the Black Leadership Forum. You know. And I\u2013 I\u2013 I really think, when I talk to (unintelligible word) I\u2019ll be very honest with you, that uh, after the Roots<\/i>, you know, people saw Roots<\/i>, and really felt that tie, you know.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Ida Ray:<\/b> They really<\/i> did, you know.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Ida Ray:<\/b> And I think it was a lot of emotion that was involved, particularly when\u2013 (unintelligible word) you had one black on one side uh, pushing\u2013 I shouldn\u2019t say pushing, I mean supporting Jim, and then another on the other side who resented their support of him. You get what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Ida Ray:<\/b> I think a lot of those feelings will be eliminated, and uh, people will see his good work, and that will be that, you know.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah. Well, I mean, let me assure you, that, you know, we\u2019re here taking stands on issues<\/i>. And we\u2019ll always do that. We\u2019ll look at the issue not uh, who\u2019s backing it necessarily. And uh, I mean, I think we could see the effectiveness like, uh, at that Board of Education meeting, where you and Yvonne were blasting them, and\u2013 and all they saw was uh, two black women, you know, coming at them, and then uh, you know, when those white hands went up, though, to show support, I think, you know, we can work together that way.<\/p>\n

Ida Ray:<\/b> That\u2019s right. And that\u2019s what I\u2019d hoped we could really<\/i> do over this city, because it really makes a hell<\/i> of a big difference.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Sure. And, you know\u2013<\/p>\n

Ida Ray:<\/b> And that exactly\u2013 when you get uh, one<\/i> side fighting the other side, you can forget it. It\u2019s called divide and conquer<\/i>. You know.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah. (Stumbles over words) Our trouble has been to convince people of our motives\u2013 all\u2013 ever\u2013 ever since, you know, the Moscone election and so forth, it (unintelligible word)\u2013 they\u2019re trying to put us in this political bag, make us kingmakers in the community, and uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Ida Ray:<\/b> Yeah. And fear<\/i>. They\u2019re afraid. A lot of it has to do\u2013<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah. And threatened.<\/p>\n

Ida Ray:<\/b> Right. That\u2019s right. A lot of it is fear and\u2013 and they feel threatened. And uh\u2013 and\u2013\u00a0and of course, uh, nothing we can do about that. You know, but, like I said, I think there\u2019s a way though that I\u2019ve<\/i> learned that you can get around it, is just moving on, and doing the good things that you\u2019ve been doing and keep<\/i> doing it. You know. And helping people, and that\u2019s, you know\u2013<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> And\u2013 and Jim truly wants to unite and not divide. That\u2019s why, you know, he said\u2013 you know him that\u2013 that you thought, you know, he\u2013 he\u2019d be able to speak in May, there\u2013 I mean, there is that possibility, and he said, well, if there\u2019s opposition, no, he said, uh, you know, I, uh, you know\u2013 he said, I don\u2019t want to cause more division than already exists. But uh, now, I said, well I\u2019d talk with you further and see what you<\/i> thought, because uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Ida Ray:<\/b> Well, let me work it out and uh, and see we\u2019ll be uh, as soon as we work it out and see what\u2019s happening, you know, uh, I will be happy to have him.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Ida Ray:<\/b> And we\u2019ll send you an invitation. But I too do not want to see division. So I think I would be (unintelligible phrase) on the group, you know, so that I can do it, okay?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Sure.<\/p>\n

Ida Ray:<\/b> And that\u2019s a\u2013 that\u2019s a promise. (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Ida Ray:<\/b> Okay, (unintelligible word).<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Thank you.<\/p>\n

Ida Ray:<\/b> All right, now.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Take care.<\/p>\n

Ida Ray:<\/b> Bye\u2013 All right. Bye-bye.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Bye-bye.<\/p>\n

End of call. <\/b><\/p>\n

\n

Part 1 (continuation):<\/b><\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> \u2013both here and abroad, as you may or\u2013 may be familiar, we have uh, 27,000 acres undertaking abroad in a mixed<\/i> society, black president, but a beautifully<\/i> racially-inclusive society, and uh, it\u2019s an agricultural project. Uh\u2013 Several of our members there, couple of hundred of our members. It serves many<\/em> purposes. Not only does it help feed and clothe and house the people in an emerging Third World nation, and give jobs to\u2013 I think now we\u2019re employing 91 people, but we have run into individuals who are almost lost in the asphalt jungle. And so social service agencies or judges will say, you either take them, and uh, if you\u2013 you\u2019ve got a place abroad, fine, otherwise they\u2019re going to jail. And we\u2019ve got 22 people now, young people, who were at the l\u2013 very lowest extremity, some who were kleptomaniacs<\/em>, uh, they weren\u2019t members of the parish, but uh, kleptomaniacs. I think of a child<\/em> molester. All sorts of social deviation.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Incorrigible.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Incorrigible. That\u2019s right. Thank you. And when we put them in this new environment<\/em>\u2013 I\u2019m an environmental determinist, it\u2019s made me an environmental determinist, more<\/em> than anything\u2013<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/strong> Repeat that, again, what is it, an environmental determinist?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Determinist. Yes, I believe that uh, if you\u2013 if we don\u2019t do something about the environments\u2013 they\u2019re talking about crime in the streets, you know, uh, and\u2013 I think if a lot of the youngsters saw something done more about the crime in the\u2013 in the suites<\/em>, we would see uh, a change in attitude. Opportunities are not<\/em> there. Uh, recreational opportunities. Jobs opportunities. Fifty percent of our black youth are unemployed<\/em>. And the work ethic\u2019s very strong emphasis in America, and that\u2019s (unintelligible word) it should be, but what does this do to the morale of a person\u2013 I think behind every situation you see, there\u2019s always\u2013 there\u2019s much talk about crimes of violence today, and yet only six percent of the crimes in the United States are violent<\/em>, and of that six percent, ninety percent of those crimes are happening to us, the poor white, the poor black, the Indian.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> Yes, we\u2019re the victims of it.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Be\u2013\u00a0uh, uh, one case I was called in to, I didn\u2019t know them, but called me the other day. The husband has stabbed the wife. And said, he\u2019d never been violent in his life. And when I got into the situation, she said, why don\u2019t you get a job? And that was the worst thing she could\u2019ve said to him. But an understandable thing. And there\u2019s uh, drinking\u2013 typical kind of thing, we\u2019ve got a type of welfare system, I think, could stand much improvement. We give money to people instead of creating opportunities, jobs and programs, but naturally, I\u2019d be\u2013 that fellow who has not<\/i> been able to uh, meet the standards of success in American society, which is to work and produce. He gets his money, and before he gets home, he\u2013 to buy food for the family, he gonna be at the tavern quite frequently, and I think behind every bit of the crimes of violence that I\u2019ve<\/i> run into, there is a social<\/i> condition, and I\u2019m very much concerned\u2013<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Absolutely.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> \u2013Uh, uh, very much concerned about this talk, we\u2019re going to bring back capital punishment, because I notice capital punishment doesn\u2019t work for the rich.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/strong> There\u2019s never uh\u2013 You\u2019re right. There\u2019s never been a deterrent\u2013 deterrent to crime either.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Neither. Neither. Thank you for that. Uh, we find that\u2013 I think it\u2019s been pretty well supported, one with fifty thousand dollars of assets has never<\/i> gone to a gas chamber or been hung or shot or electrocuted in this country. And we also find that there is a tendency today in the world towards dictatorships. Be they right or left. And often the execution later becomes a political tool to do away with dissenters. And yet you hear so many people rapping about, let\u2019s bring back, uh, capital punishment. And as you say, it is not<\/i> a deterrent. In fa\u2013\u00a0In fact, there\u2019re a whole lot of folk who are so miserable out there, they want to commit suicide like [Gary] Gilmore, and yet they\u2013 they, uh, little fearful of doing it themselves and I\u2013 I think we\u2019ll see more<\/i> of peo\u2013\u00a0more of this type of thing. They\u2019ll kill somebody or do something of a capital nature so that the state will take care of \u2018em.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/strong> And why are there\u2013 Why are there more blacks and minorities in jails and\u2013 and prisons uh, in comparison to their uh, percentages in the population? To say that uh, you know, they\u2019re uh, that it\u2019s not<\/em> the environment, that it\u2019s not<\/em> social conditions, is to say that they\u2019re inferior<\/em>. I\u2019m not ready to buy<\/em> that. I think it\u2019s because\u2013<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> I refuse to buy it. I\u2019m happy to hear you say it.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> And\u2013 and the fact that there\u2019s no jobs that, as Reverend Jones said, there\u2019s uh, over fifty percent unemployment for black, what are they going to do? They watch television, they see families with material goods uh, living comfortably, uh, material things that they can\u2019t have, so they try and get it. How\u2013 the\u2013 the only way they can is to turn to the streets<\/i>, and they\u2013 they\u2019re already in<\/i> the streets as a means of survival.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Um-hmm [Yes].<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> Well, this is what we\u2019re going to do. We\u2019re going to come back in just a moment, because I know that any time there\u2019s a groundswell and people who are concerned with the social movement as you are at Peoples Temple, there must be some kind of surveillance, and I noticed tonight, you didn\u2019t come in here with a battery of bodyguards, so I don\u2019t\u2013 I want to know how you move freely with the FBI, the CIA, and whoever may be infiltrating your church.<\/p>\n

(off air)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> I\u2019m sure they\u2019re sitting out there (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

(Music)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> He\u2019s my security.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> You\u2019re wha\u2013 You\u2019re his security. How about that? This is the security.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Twenty-one assassination threats.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> Wait, I\u2019m serious. Does secur\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> He\u2019s security.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> That\u2019s where we are anyway.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> Usually huge storm trooper-types.<\/p>\n

(Three talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Don\u2019t\u2013 don\u2019t es\u2013 don\u2019t let us estimate\u2013<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> And you know karate.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Martial arts.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> Could throw me right out of this room in a second.<\/p>\n

(Laughter)<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> It could happen. I just wondered, \u2018cause (unintelligible word) you must have\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Oh my God, it\u2019s terrible.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> You\u2013 if you get threat from the violence of the right and the left, when we help Cleaver, we get threat from the left, when we help\u2013\u00a0uh, we helped Angela Davis, we got threat from the right. (Stumbles over words) You know, it\u2019s a\u2013 it\u2019s a\u2013 it\u2013 it\u2013\u00a0but human rights are out of vogue, and the thought of these\u2013 it is, they don\u2019t seem to realize that uh, we\u2019ve got uh, the power of a military-industrial complex overshadowing us, and\u2013\u00a0and we\u2019re going to have to forget some the little differences of labels or whether we\u2019re Marxist-Leninist or\u2013 or Darwinian Socialist or whatever in the hell (unintelligible under Hare)\u2013<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> About three or four years ago, we broke, you know, when the movement split over that very<\/i> thing. And they don\u2019t know when [Karl] Marx and [Vladimir] Lenin wrote, they wrote for another period, another time, a sort of another class struggle, but they just read it and it became fashionable to say that we\u2019re this, or to give labels.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> Instead of just coming\u2013 I\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> You can\u2019t do it.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> I hope our machine\u2013 (Pause)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Did it break? (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> No, it didn\u2019t. Not this new thing. (unintelligible) machine.<\/p>\n

Music.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I meant the kinds of\u2013 the kinds of things you put over the air break it. This\u2013\u00a0this was built for a different type of thing.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> It was. (On air) Welcome back to uh, Reactions<\/i>, and our discussion. Incidentally, the Peoples Temple \u2013 because I know, when this is over, you\u2019re going to want to know where it is \u2013 is at the corner of Geary and Fillmore, and I\u2019ll give you that exact<\/i> address, in case you really<\/i> want to see uh, Reverend Jones in action. You\u2019re hearing him tonight. Reverend Jones, before I get back to that question about surveillance, despite the oath that doctors are popular\u2013 that doctors take, they are popularly thought to be uh, to place profit above philanthropy. And yet you have doctors and lawyers who are volunteering. How<\/i> did you accomplish that?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well again, we can\u2013 we can\u2019t generalize. I found some extremely sensitive people who are in the upper middle class in our church. As you mentioned, we have crossed that class barrier. We\u2019ve overcome the racial barrier.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Age barrier.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Age barrier. I\u2013 Thank you for that. I uh\u2013 I see that uh, the most beautiful thing, the youth and the seniors doing things together. And uh, we\u2013 we respect our elders. That\u2019s one of the old proverbs that we hold dearly. And as a consequence, our seniors\u2013 I think we have a\u2013 the age\u2013 (Laughs) the normal age of our seniors is in the eighties, uh, we have one centenarian, she\u2019s 106, still going. And she pr\u2013 she fixes lemon pies in her little humble home.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Best pies I\u2019ve ever eaten.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> Good. (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> And sells them. At a hundred and six, you know. If we can just eliminate these barriers that\u2019ve uh, developed in our society between race and class, and I think Peoples Temple has gone a long way towards that, and\u2013 and as I say, you can\u2019t make generalizations. There are people in every class who are concerned about the uh, deprivation and (Stumbles over words) poor distribution of our wealth that we see so obviously before us in the country\u2013<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/strong> And I\u2013 I know you must<\/em> pose a threat to ministers here with established so-called churches that begin at what I have often defined, the most<\/em> segregated hour in this country is 11 o\u2019clock Sunday morning, that\u2019s where you find (unintelligible under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Very true.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> \u2013 churches. So I know\u2013 what\u2019s the feeling of them? Have you made enemies, or are you coming together with them? Do they view you as a threat, as sort of siphoning off membership\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Amazingly, amazingly<\/i> enough, we are finding a number of ministers \u2013 white ministers, particularly \u2013 one ordained Baptist Church in San Leandro that\u2019s done a good\u2013 a\u2013 a minister there, has done very uh, good things uh, for his people and works closely with us. We have uh, on Martin Luther King Day, the\u2013 the Council of Churches just voted that it be conducted in Peoples Temple. We had 91 ministers there. I\u2019m not saying that they were all together, you know, in terms of perspective, but there is emerging in this community that kind of concern. Black ministers of the caliber of Reverend Hall. Theologically, I don\u2019t know where he and I stand, but uh, Reverend Hall has a great empathy for people at Bethel AME.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> Amos, yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> And uh, uh, so (Stumbles over words) It\u2019s happening. More than I\u2019ve seen it. And I think, as we see economic conditions change \u2013 and they\u2019re going to change unless there\u2019re some miracles \u2013 we\u2019ll see more unemployment, necessity\u2019s going to be the mother of invention. Folk are going to quit talking about heaven, when they\u2019re hungry, and uh, that\u2019s why I<\/i> hope the church and all agency begin to do voluntary things. We<\/em> don\u2019t want to see a violent revolution in this society. And so society\u2019s going to have to revolutionize itself from within<\/em>, or it\u2019s going to be torn apart.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> You\u2019ve often said that uh\u2013 in your ideology, you\u2019re not uh, violent by nature, but you\u2019re pacifist, and yet you think\u2013 you tend to get things done. And usually any movement that really<\/i> has gotten off the ground, whether in this<\/i> country or in other countries, there has been a bit of bloodshed. But you<\/i> feel that that isn\u2019t necessary.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I would hope<\/i> it\u2019s not necessary. Now when we took uh, took up the defense of the Jewish community, uh, not long ago, when the Nazis<\/i> were emerging, not only against the Jews, it\u2019s al\u2013 they\u2019re\u2013 they\u2019re against everybody, I guess, these\u2013 these bums. But (Stumbles over words) they\u2013 they began to threaten and they\u2013 I think they thought, well, we\u2019re pacifists<\/i>. They\u2019ve forgotten certain things that Gandhi said. Gandhi said if a mad dog\u2019s running loose, uh\u2013 meaning a mad human within a society, endangering it, you don\u2019t allow that to happen. Now pacifism doesn\u2019t mean that you roll over and play dead<\/em>. Now indeed, if uh, uh, a bunch of bums come into our Temple, uh, we\u2019re not going to turn the other cheek.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> \u2013turn the other cheek. (laughs)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> We\u2019ve turned all<\/em> the cheeks we\u2019ve got anyway. And so we\u2019re\u2013 we\u2019re not\u2013 we\u2019re going to be uh\u2013 we will resist<\/em> evil. But what I\u2019m saying, we don\u2019t believe in offensive<\/em> violence, like we\u2019ve seen happening\u2013<\/p>\n

End of side 1<\/b><\/p>\n

Side 2<\/b><\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (unintelligible beginning) victim of mugging. That isn\u2019t going to take the social economic conditions away that caused<\/i> them, but I don\u2019t believe in prejudice against anybody. So we let him speak, and the man came off very\u2013 with a great deal of understanding \u2013 shockingly enough \u2013 an empathy and ashamed<\/i> of what the FBI had done, and I really believe sincerely he did not know of the dirty tricks. Someway he\u2013 he was a younger man, of course, and I don\u2019t know what caused me to mention that. Now, what was the point?<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/strong> Maybe it was (unintelligible word under Jones) the issue of the FBI, the CIA and people like that, just being involved in your church.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> We were talking about violence. Uh\u2013 uh\u2013 But we\u2013 we tend to turn\u2013 we tend to turn people away by acts of terror, and as I started to say, the FBI \u2013 this is what I was getting at \u2013\u00a0the FBI, uh, I think<\/em>, you know, it was oh, several years ago, set up, as I recall reading, a\u2013 an organization known as US, uh, it now come out, and as to when the Panthers began to talk about more internationalism and uh, racial inclusiveness, and working within the system<\/em>, uh, all this uh, hell-raising begun. And US was talking in the same terms that some people are talking right today in San Francisco, we can\u2019t cooperate with any others, we\u2013 we have to be black only, and we\u2019re going to have to define what black is, and now<\/em> we find out that behind all those black-only was white establishment plans to divide\u2013<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> Yes, that was in Los Angeles, too.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> \u2013and it caused\u2013\u00a0yes, and it caused the death of several Panthers. So I\u2019m suspicious<\/em> of these people who want to divide when the community could really come together in San Francisco. Now we hear all this talk s\u2013 behind some of this, I wonder if we don\u2019t have a nice agent provocateur.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> Well, I\u2019m wondering what are the reasons also that when blacks really cried out for uh, black films, you know, some value in black studies and black literature, we didn\u2019t get it. And suddenly, ABC \u2013 that certainly is not a paragon of liberalism \u2013 gave us Roots<\/i>, and bombarded our homes with it for eight nights straight. Do you begin to wonder about those kinds of things? You don\u2019t have to answer if you don\u2019t wish.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I\u2019m never one to shun a response. I think that uh, uh, anytime we see the establishment producing such uh\u2013 a s\u2013 historical document, it\u2013 it\u2013 it\u2019s shock<\/em>. Uh, perhaps their motivation was good. I imagine the major motivation was, they knew they made money, and they did. Um\u2013 Overall, I can see some good that has emerged. I\u2019ve talked to white people who have gotten the consciousness that they never had. Un\u2013 Unfortunately, I think that there are some who thought well, I watched it, and now I\u2013 I understand and I care, and it\u2019ll be forgotten. Also, there\u2019s a dangerous aspect, they called it\u2013 I believed [Alex] Haley wrote\u2013 it was a saga<\/em> of an American family, but I notice ABC called it the triumph<\/em> of America\u2013<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> Triumph of\u2013 of an American family. That\u2019s what disturbs me. Not only was the saga, but also probably of one<\/i> black American family. Now they\u2019re calling a tragedy an American triumph. Now look at the people who will not read the subtleties as you\u2019ve read that. And see, we will\u2013 are going to now go back ten or fifteen more years, just because of this, because of Roots<\/i>. I\u2019m not that concerned of where I came from, but where are we now and where are we going<\/em>?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Oh, that was exactly<\/i> what I said Sunday. And who are (unintelligible under Hare)<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> Were you thrown out of your church for saying that?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> No. But who in the\u2013\u00a0who of us have gotten money to go back to Africa to find out where we came from? And again, it\u2019s not so important where<\/em> we\u2019ve come from, but where we\u2019re going. I\u2019m an American mongrel. Hell, if I began to look w\u2013 where my roots were, I\u2019d\u2013 I\u2019d have to spend a million dollars to find my roots. I\u2019m not going to start on that<\/em> course. And then just because one person found his roots<\/em>, that\u2019s not going to help the millions<\/em> of people who do not have roots. A person\u2013<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> Not only black people, because we\u2013 we live in a rootless society.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes, yes. That\u2019s true. That\u2019s what I tried to say.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> I\u2019m sure that if you poll the average white person, they wouldn\u2019t know, you know, from whence they came. But somehow this was fed to us that we had to move on with it. When you took the people to Washington, D.C., uh, what were the\u2013\u00a0really the motives for it. Did you want them to see how their representatives worked there in Congress for them, and were the representatives intimidated at your presence?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Uh, no\u2013 uh, certainly uh, the Burtons [John Burton and Philip Burton] were very responsive, and so\u2013 strangely enough, a very conservative man by the name of [Don] Clauson, I thought, was most responsive. Uh, I was shocked<\/em>. You never can\u2013\u00a0You never know what uh, to make of people\u2013\u00a0when you start to generalize. Here, uh, recently, we\u2013 we\u2019ve seen\u2013\u00a0When I met with Mrs. [Rosalynn] Carter, I uh\u2013\u00a0she asked to meet with me just before the election. I\u2019m not partisan in politics, but I suppose because of our size, we got 9000 members, and I said, uh\u2013\u00a0she said, well, what would you like to see come out of the administration? I began to talk about uh, interventionist policies in Chile, this horrible<\/em> thing uh, that we\u2019ve no\u2013 admitted that we\u2019ve played a role in, the murder of an el\u2013 a duly-elected man [Salvador Allende], they talk, uh, about fear of totalitarian communism, and yet here was a\u2013 a socialist that was elected by the people and was trying to maintain a democratic course and included non-socialist, liberal, progressive elements, and he ends up murdered<\/em> with our assistance. I said uh, the interventionism in the Third World\u2019s got to\u2013 interventionist policies got to stop. And we see Carter\u2013\u00a0he kept his word<\/em> on that. Uh, the name that was thrown around, [Theodore] Sorensen, was put in as the CIA director, and woe<\/em> be unto us, we see a liberal<\/em> coalition block Sorensen\u2019s appointment. I said, we ought to stop giving aid to Chile, and uh, again, the shocker. All<\/em> the liberal cats, uh, the dudes went along<\/em> with it, and three Republicans voted against the uh, fifty-five million dollar assistance that was given a couple of weeks ago. It blows my mind. You don\u2019t know where\u2013 you\u2013\u00a0you can\u2019t possibly say that uh, this group of uh, coalition\u2019s going to consistently\u2013 consistently stand for the right things. All of a sudden, up comes a conservative and stands uh, more resolutely for uh, decency than the\u2013 the so-called liberals. Tha\u2013 That\u2019s why I refused to get involved in the partisan two-party system.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/strong> Well, one reason I refuse to get involved in it \u2013 I\u2019ve often made the same statement that you have made, and people have wondered about it \u2013 uh, I am really afraid too much\u2013 of too much liberal thinking. I prefer people almost to the extremes. You know, you either a\u2013 stand for something or you are (unintelligible word) opposed to it, because at least I know how<\/em> to fight you or how<\/em> to address you or how to talk with you. But the liberals tend to be on the fence. When the going gets rough, they tend to fall to the side of the fence that seems to have\u2013 well, that seems to be the strongest. In\u2013 You mentioned uh, Mrs. Carter, and I wondered about that when she came out. There\u2019re a lot of ministers here, there\u2019re a lot of people here who would love to\u2019ve had her ear, but yet she requested yours for dinner. What was the reason for that?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I should imagine it\u2019s votes. To be very pragmatic\u2013<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> Well, there are many people she could\u2019ve asked, but \u2013\u00a0don\u2019t be modest \u2013\u00a0she asked you<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, again, there\u2019re not so many people that have that many members. I think we\u2019re the largest church in town. Uh\u2013 I think<\/i> she had mentioned s\u2013 hearing something of, of uh, our human service program. I can\u2019t recall what it was\u2013<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> About drugs?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes. Having to do with drug rehabilitation. Thank you. And of course you know, Mr. Carter come couple of s\u2013 years before to Delancey Street<\/a>, so there must be a pu\u2013 uh, a certain sensitivity there. Uh, his uh, his arch-fundamentalism \u2013 or what appeared to be arch-foundamentalism\u2013 uh, fundamentalism \u2013 gave me some concerns<\/i> when he was elected president. But some of the nominations he\u2019s made, at least in terms of foreign relations<\/i>, the SALT, the gentleman for the director of SALT, uh, who\u2019s having a tough time because he said that he would make every effort to bring d\u00e9tente in this thermo-nuclear age, when we can wipe out all of civilization, and it looks like he<\/i> might not get\u2013 make it. Uh, the man see\u2013\u00a0And Andy Young. I\u2019ve known Andy Young to be extremely sensitive, at least in the early seventies in the struggle, of course people change, I don\u2019t uh, know, I see he\u2019s has now made three statements in the recent days that show that Andy\u2019s still in the\u2013 coming from the same stock when he said that in Angola, in spite of what we may feel about Cuba, that they stabilize situations, and of course he got slapped down by Mr. [Cyrus] Vance over<\/i> it, but I notice even Mr. Vance uh, the Secretary of State, saying, was it yesterday, that uh, we\u2019re going to have better relations with Cuba, which is long, long overdue. I\u2019ve been to Cuba. I have seen in Cuba a different form of communism than what has been depicted uh, to me in Eastern Europe. And uh, I disagree with uh, Mr. Cleaver, I did not recognize racism there. Um\u2013\u00a0Sure, there are certain facets of Cuban life that wouldn\u2019t work for America, that\u2019s why we gotta get out of this thing. One solution that will work for Cuba will not work for America. But I saw a tremendous<\/i> amount of individual liberty. I was shocked<\/i> at the amount of individual liberty. And a great deal of criticism<\/i> \u2013 of course, within a socialist perspective \u2013 but criticism of the government. Uh, no fear of the government. That<\/i> was pleasant to me, to see no fear. And the standard of living, compared to un\u2013 being under [Fulgencio] Batista is like comparing night to day<\/i>. Uh, health care guaranteed, and uh, the standard of dress. I thought I was in the best neighborhood, you know, the best neighborhood of an American city. I noticed uh, Senator [George] McGovern\u2019s children have been there for some weeks, and they\u2019ve been saying the same things. Cuba is American in its orientation, it\u2019s American in its culture, its appreciation of the arts. I don\u2019t know what this stupid boycott uh, is\u2013 is going to do at all for us. I think that uh, with a bit of effort, we could be allies, and they could be of tremendous<\/em> help to us. Their standard of moral sensitivity, uh, their cultural progress, their progress in health, high schools there just amazed<\/em> me, uh, they\u2019ll have\u2013 they limit 500 students to a high school, the high school\u2019s put on an acreage of 500, they have 500 acres allotted to a high school, kids not only uh, work with their mind in the intellectual processes, but they\u2013 they spend three hours a day working in the fields<\/em>. And they develop their own food, which gives them a real sense of\u2013 of fulfillment, plus<\/em> \u2013\u00a0so there won\u2019t be division, and Cuba is very much opposed to dividing on the basis of race or religion \u2013 they produce for the national economy<\/em>. And uh, being a clergyman, I was concerned about freedom of religion. And I didn\u2019t take any guided tour, because I\u2013 when I go into a situation, I want to be uninhibited. And uh, I haven\u2019t found anything perfect in society, and certainly not Cuba either\u2013 either. But I talked to 400 different people from every strata of life, uh, professional people, people who\u2019ve been poor as Job\u2019s turkey, and I found no dissatisfaction. But we\u2019re going to have to learn to relate<\/em> in this world, we\u2019re going to blow ourselves up. We\u2019ve got to overcome these ideological barriers. At home, certainly\u2013 we\u2019ve got to begin with home. I\u2013 I don\u2019t\u2013 I didn\u2019t mean to get on the uh, subject of Cuba. We\u2019ve got to come together in this<\/em> United States first.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> All right, we\u2019re going to come back in just a minute and continue this profile of Reverend Jim Jones. (Off air) (soft aside) You should be the ambassador to something.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> He should. He should.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> That\u2019s right. I\u2019m going to ask you about your political aspirations (unintelligible under Prokes)<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> That\u2019ll be a short subject.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> But that\u2013\u00a0it should not<\/i> be. There should be political aspirations, and I don\u2019t mean something like the Board of Supervisors or Assemblyman something. I mean someone who has national\u2013<\/p>\n

(Three talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> He wouldn\u2019t last. He wouldn\u2019t last.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> \u2013being this thing, that all\u2013 all these black people have come to me and told me, they\u2019re scared to death I\u2019m going to be the mayor or I\u2019m going to be the next supervisor. Hell, I wouldn\u2019t be the supervisor if they give me the job. You know, this\u2013 this is\u2013 uh, if they could only get that message across\u2013 Thank you for asking me that, so I can tell them, that I do not<\/i> want to be the supervisor. And then I will be probably welcomed into the forum.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> That\u2019s what it\u2019s all about.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> But even if they get one\u2013 (unintelligible aside). Eleven minutes. Okay. I didn\u2019t think that I (unintelligible phrase).<\/p>\n

(Pause)<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> Welcome back to Reactions<\/i> and our discussion with the Reverend Jim Jones and Michael Prokes of the Peoples Temple. Such an appropriately named church.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Julia, I just wanted to add that when Reverend Jones met with Mrs. Carter, he didn\u2019t spend his time talking or complimenting her or praising her husband, he talked about issues and needs in the poor and black communities.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Free press, too. I was greatly concerned about what the stands were going to be on the free press. We came to the rally for one rea\u2013\u00a0we were all wearing uh, badges at the time, it was during that Fresno crisis, and it said free\u2013 Free the Fresno Four. So I acquainted her with that.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> Well, since uh, your church has been entered into the Congressional Record<\/i> recently, uh, a whole page is so devoted to it, uh, there are those who may feel that you have political aspirations, even with ramifications for the Black Leadership Forum. Are you interested in that, becoming a supervisor?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Not\u2013 unequivocally no. And you\u2019re very sensitive to perceive, that\u2019s the whole issue of those few that didn\u2019t want me in the forum because I\u2019m lighter-skin, even though I\u2019ve a mixed background. Uh\u2013 uh, they\u2019re afraid<\/em>, uh, so I\u2019ve been told reliably, that I\u2019m going to be<\/em> the next supervisor of the Western Addition or promote<\/em> a supervisor. We\u2019re not even promoting a candidate within our church, because we want unity so<\/em> badly that, even though we have thousands of people and had black leaders, a bl\u2013 a newspaper publisher [Carlton Goodlett], uh, professional people who, outside of our parish who suggested that we do<\/em> that, we feel for the sake of unity, we will stay out of the arena, and as for me being a supervisor, in all due respects to uh\u2013 to the supervisors, I\u2019m not the type of personality for it. We have to have some<\/em> people outside the system, pointing at its errors. And I feel that\u2019s my role, presently at least. I\u2013\u00a0I wouldn\u2019t be able to work within the two-party structure, so I have no<\/em> political ambitions, and this foolishness of the rumor that I\u2019m going to be a mayor, or\u2013\u00a0I mean, throw my hat in for the mayor, I have no intentions of running for any<\/em> elected office. And that is absolutely so.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> Is that just here in the city, or is it\u2013 do you mean to set a statewide level or nationally or\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes, I\u2013 I\u2013 I don\u2019t think that there\u2019s a place for as free a thinker as I am at this stage. I hope I\u2019m wrong<\/i>. I would serve<\/i>, of course, if I could<\/i> serve. But it seems to me that when a man speaks, as I just spoke, about Cuba, uh, mention that you\u2019ll go to Cuba, because of d\u00e9tente \u2013 I must say, while I was at Cuba, I also mentioned to them, highly-idealistic people, their intervention in Angola was greatly appreciated \u2013\u00a0but I\u2013 as I warned<\/i> them, I said Uncle Sam is in a kind of a bad state of mind<\/em> these days, he\u2019s sort of a little bit like the man who went through the menopause and uh, once was the most attractive guy around town, the most potent guy around town, but he\u2019s lost his girlfriends in Vietnam, and he\u2019s lost in Cambodia and Angola and a lot of places in the world, and I said, he\u2019s a dangerous creature because we read a few weeks ago of a man who uh, gone through that very uh, period and uh, suspected then that his wife was having an extramarital affair, and he ended up killing her and killed the grandchildren \u2013 not at my church, but uh\u2013 (Struggles for words) not too far removed from our community \u2013 and he wiped out everyone<\/em>, and I said uh, to the Cubans, I said, you\u2019re going to have to be very careful with your idealism, because it is a realistic fact that America is sick<\/em>. It\u2019s disturbed<\/em>, as anyone would be that has had great power, and misused it unfortunately, but then see that power removed<\/em> suddenly, lose all that potential, that potency, that attraction, uh, America has had so many reverses. I was amazed that they got by with Angola, and I asked them what\u2013 well, what will you do if you\u2019re asked into Zimbabwe, and they said, well, we\u2019ve not been asked<\/em>. But if it was a populist reaction<\/em>, we\u2019d have to go. I said, don\u2019t you realize that that could bring about thermonuclear war<\/em>, and they said\u2013 one little lady in the Central Committee said to me, we all have to die sometime. You can\u2019t start compromising your principles. You have to live by your principles. And I hope that America wi\u2013 is aware<\/em> of that, that Cubans are not the type of people you will change by bluffing, no more than you\u2019re going to change America. And we do have some realistic difficulties out there. We need\u2013\u00a0We need a new change in foreign relations, we\u2019re going to have to have dialogue, we\u2019ve got to have disarmament, my God, uh, (Struggles for words) every minute it\u2019s increasing, the dangers of war by accident, and no<\/em> one wins in a thermonuclear war, and uh, I\u2019m all for Carter\u2019s efforts to uh, (Struggles for words) re-emphasis of moral values, rather than thinking pragmatically whether we have uh, two more missiles than the Soviet Union. In the first place, if we had just a limited number<\/em> of missiles, it\u2019s enough uh, of a deterrent.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> You know, millions of people visit Washington, D.C. every year. But why did your church get the tourist of the year award?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Well, The Washington Post<\/em> gave us that, because when we go in to any area, we\u2013 we\u2019re ecology-minded, and so we cleaned up that uh, little uh, pool<\/em> that they have, and uh, it was a terrible thing that many tourists come in to the city, they throw all their paper and their debris\u2013<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> You mean, you literally got out and cleaned\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> We got in it. We got inside<\/i> that pool, some of us 70 and 80 years of age\u2013<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Rolled up their pant legs.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> \u2013rolled up the pant legs and got in there and cleaned<\/i> that city up like it\u2019d not been cleaned up. We do it every year, but it just happened to be noticed uh, by The Washington Post<\/i> that time.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> Do you do this in most of the places you stop on the way to where you\u2019re going?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Everywhere we go. And as a result, we have\u2013 it\u2019s\u2013\u00a0I didn\u2019t do<\/i> it for that reason, but we have found that it has won some people. In Georgia, they closed off\u2013\u00a0Was it Georgia?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yes.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> In Georgia, they closed off uh, entire rest area to us. Wouldn\u2019t let us in, and we were so hot and tired in the summer last, uh, year, last year\u2013<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> Why did they close it off?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Oh, racism. Racism.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> The home of our uh\u2013 The former home of our present president\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes, yes, yes.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> They saw our buses coming with all those people integrated, and they felt threatened<\/i> by it, and so they closed the facilities, but we got off the buses and began picking up paper, and the man who operated the rest stop\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Three hours, though, we had to do it. It isn\u2019t\u2013 isn\u2019t the easiest thing to break through. But finally, the\u2013 the chap got a bit uh\u2013 (short laugh) he felt guilty<\/i>, I guess, came out, opened it up and uh, disgruntled, but he watched us the rest of the day, because we had a breakdown as a result of it, we\u2013 we needed some water badly for one of the motors, and we had a breakdown in the bus, and uh, he watched us for ten hours, finally he come out, old white Southerner, typical, he looked like\u2013\u00a0just like one of the rebel of\u2013 rebels of the Confederate\u2013 Confederacy, and he come up and he said, there\u2019s somethin\u2019 I want to do for you folk. He pulled out a card, it was his Ku Klux Klan membership, and tore it up in front of our eyes. That made me believe that it\u2019s possible<\/i> to communicate. I could not believe it.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> Well, how did you contain the people on the bus, you know, to work so many hours without anyone getting angry or really starting a hassle there?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> That\u2013 that comes from that long<\/i> tradition of pacifism, you know. We are<\/i> a gentle people that will overcome\u2013 do any measure to overcome evil with gentle measures and enduring<\/i> measures, because we\u2019ve seen it work with people. We have people in our congregation who are former members<\/i> of the Ku Klux Klan, a John Bircher in our congregation. It pays<\/i> to try to persist with people. Love does overcome evil, if you can endure. And it isn\u2019t my<\/i> doing, it\u2019s a consensus, uh, that we\u2013 we want to try so much to uh, break down the barriers. And it did break down a barrier there. It was fantastic.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> But you certainly provided the example. And I think people need to see<\/i> an example, because that man that operated the rest stop, he was raised all his life, uh, he was taught<\/i> racism, but he was touched. He saw uh, older black woman walking hand-in-hand with a small Caucasian child, and he was touched<\/i> by it. He saw integration working, and it moved him to (unintelligible word under Jones) his membership in the Klan, which is unbelievable. But it happened.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> We called him. We called him\u2013 call (unintelligible word under Prokes). They called to the newspaper of the little segregationist town, and they took a picture of (unintelligible word under Prokes).<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Even had his picture taken.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Our oldest black woman [Ever Rejoicing, aka Amanda Poindexter] and our oldest\u2013 uh, which was 106, black \u2013 and a hun\u2013 ninety, ninety-seven white, and uh, he took a picture right between them. (unintelligible word under Prokes)<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> I don\u2019t know that he still lives in that area<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> I believe we should\u2013 Yes, well, they probably run him out following that kind of act. What do you ultimately plan to do with Peoples Temple? No, before that, I understand that at one time you were very ill. Um\u2013 Was it cancer or leukemia or something that you had, but somehow through your psychic healing powers, you sort of healed yourself. Is there any truth to that?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, that was what I was diagnosed. Yes, I was diagnosed, uh, many years ago.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> Did you have cancer?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I believe that mi\u2013\u00a0Yes, I believe that mind is an untapped resource. We\u2013\u00a0when we see the Soviet Union who are uh, atheist and materialist, dialect\u2013 they believe in dialectic materialism, when they\u2019re spending a million dollars, as some people say, a day studying uh, the uh, phenomenon of paranormal, we better consider it. Doctor Helen Flanders Dunbar said that uh\u2013\u00a0uh,\u00a0she speaks of all these remissions, you know, one of our most eminent psychiatrists, just by attitude<\/i>. So I\u2013 I think we under-estimate the power of mind, we have seen a number of people in our congregation healed<\/i> through love therapy, as we call it, and I\u2013 I would consider that uh\u2013 (Pause) that we\u2019d\u2013 haven\u2019t even begun to touch this resource. It happened for me. Uh, I\u2019m not saying there\u2019s any panacea, I don\u2019t think it has a thing to do with goodness, I don\u2019t think that it should exclude medical science<\/i>, it\u2019s very important that we realize that spiritual healing or psychic healing uh, is not a panacea.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> All right now, where do you see Peoples Temple going?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Right on, trying to plod wherever need calls us. The last few days, it called us to the International Hotel. It\u2019s important that the system<\/i> work for little people. And there\u2019s been a terrible, terrible blight on uh, San Francisco, if there\u2019d been a confrontation there, \u2018cause those little people were going\u2013 uh, lay down and die<\/i>. They were not<\/i> violent, there were no weapons there, contrary to the statements of some, because I\u2019d done a thorough<\/i> investigation. They invited me in. We put 3000 people around there, and we\u2019ve heard it said that uh, people uh, realized that\u2013 that there\u2019d been a volatile situation, and they stayed the execution. I hope the community will allow<\/i> little people at least the times to feel the system works, but if we don\u2019t, we going to have a\u2013\u00a0it\u2019s going to be a\u2013 there\u2019s going to be a combustion.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> You mean, uh, they refer to your church as the International Hotel because you were so actively involved in that?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, I think some people do. They think we\u2019re the headquarters of the International Hotel. But we didn\u2019t even know the International Hotel until we saw their need<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> That\u2019s better than being called Hotel Hanoi, which I can remember something very special in this country being referred to.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> I\u2019d like to thank Pastor Jones and Michael Prokes from the Peoples Temple. And as you know, this church, the Peoples Temple and the Reverend Jim Jones, have never failed to respond to public or private appeals for assistance in the pursuit and protection of individual liberty and freedom. Thank you so much for joining me tonight on Reactions<\/i>, and I\u2019m Julia Hare for KSFO.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> It was a privilege<\/i>, Julia.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Thank you.<\/p>\n

(Music) (Off air)<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> But you\u2019re not quite finished. Now, do your little promo spots with you. First, there\u2019s really been a lot of (unintelligible under music). I must come to a service. I almost come on Sunday, you know.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> No, it\u2019s the only\u2013 only time I ever\u2013 it\u2019s the only time I\u2019ve ever enjoyed a broadcast.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> It\u2019s the only time. (unintelligible under Hare)<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> I hope the engineer heard that so you\u2019ll tell that to (unintelligible name).<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> That\u2019s true. (unintelligible under music) Go on record. Go on record.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (unintelligible under music), but you have sensitivity, so it makes it easy.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> You know, I was coming Sunday, remember?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> I was\u2013\u00a0He was caught in the east on a plane, and I left town and he got back in.<\/p>\n

Hare:<\/b> Dick (unintelligible last name), I hope you heard that. Pastor Jones said that it was a very informative interview. I know that it helped\u2013<\/p>\n

End of tape<\/b><\/p>\n

Np>Tape originally posted April 2006<\/b><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you. To return to the Tape Index, click here. To read the Tape Summary, click here. Listen to MP3 (Pt. 1, Pt. 2). [Editor’s note: The Temple’s transcript of this tape appears here.] Part 1: Julia Hare: […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":6,"featured_media":0,"parent":27291,"menu_order":413,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-27503","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27503","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/6"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=27503"}],"version-history":[{"count":10,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27503\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":128930,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27503\/revisions\/128930"}],"up":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27291"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=27503"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}