{"id":27505,"date":"2013-06-16T00:20:39","date_gmt":"2013-06-16T00:20:39","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/alternativejonestown.com\/?page_id=27505"},"modified":"2014-04-08T21:37:54","modified_gmt":"2014-04-08T21:37:54","slug":"q630","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=27505","title":{"rendered":"Q630 Transcript"},"content":{"rendered":"

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.<\/strong><\/i><\/p>\n

To return to the Tape Index, click here<\/a>.
\nTo read the Tape Summary, click here<\/a>. Listen to MP3 (Side 1<\/a>, Side 2<\/a>).<\/p>\n

Part 1<\/b><\/p>\n

(Ed. note<\/strong>: The following paragraph was recorded three times, with slight variations each time. Parts of each version was rendered unintelligible, since it was recorded in Jonestown at the receiving end of a radio transmission, and there was much static and many competing voices. The speaker is unknown \u2014\u00a0it sounded like Josh Brown in one identification \u2014 and Harriet Sarah Tropp received the transmission.)
\n<\/em>
\nThe date is April 22, 1977. We\u2019re enjoying the most beautiful trip of my entire life. I am looking up at the stars on this clear night expressing myself with the clean trade wind. I understand some of you are worried about me. I hope you don\u2019t worry too much because no one can bring harm to me tonight. If you have any further questions, give me your name and address, and I\u2019ll drop you a line. I am presently speaking from my boat. Thank you very much.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Part 2 \u2014 Conversation between Michael Prokes and member of Nation of Islam
\n<\/strong><\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> Hello.<\/p>\n

Unknown male:<\/b> Is this Nathaniel Muhammad?<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> Speaking.<\/p>\n

Unknown male:<\/b> Yes, I have a representative for Reverend Jim Jones returning your call.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> Yes sir.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Hi. Mr. Muhammad?<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> Yes sir.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> This is Michael Prokes. I dined with you and Reverend Jones in Kansas City when we had our meeting there and\u2014 along with the Reverend Jones\u2019 sons.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> Yes sir.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> And he is in our agricultural mission right now and\u2014 but I\u2019m sure uh, he would want me to get back to you and see what\u2014 any way we could assist you, what, uh, we can do.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> Yes sir. Where is he at now?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> He\u2019s in our agricultural mission in South America. He, he\u2014 (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> He was telling me about that.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Pardon?<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> I think he was telling me something about that when he was here.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Unfortunately he had a collapse. Uh, I don\u2019t know if you\u2019re aware of it, but uh, he is uh, the chairman of the San Francisco Housing Authority and he collapsed during one of the meetings, just from exhaustion<\/i>, and the doctors insisted that he get away and get some rest.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> I\u2019m sorry to hear that.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> He\u2019s just been getting two hours sleep a night for months and months, and finally it caught up with him, and uh, we\u2019re trying to keep him there a while uh, so he can recuperate and get some rest but uh, uh, it\u2019s awful uh, intense<\/i> back here, there\u2019s a lot of pressure and we thought he should\u2014 the doctors thought he should be away from it for a while.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> Yes, I understand. I\u2019m glad<\/i> of that, glad he got away. But I\u2019m real sorry to hear<\/i> that though.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Well, I\u2014 I\u2019m sure he\u2019ll be okay if we can just keep him a little bit (Laughs) less active.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> Well, my prayers will go out for him.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Thank you.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> Sure.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> What can we do?<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> Uh, we have a, uh, you know, the (unintelligible), my brother (first name unintelligible) Muhammad?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yes.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> He\u2019s supposed to be<\/i> here on the 12th of June?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Uh-huh.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> That\u2014 You know we had uh, Reverend Jim Jones out for the jubilee?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> (Unintelligible word). But the chief couldn\u2019t make it \u2018cause he\u2019s out of town?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Right, I uh, I remember.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> Right, he\u2014 well, he sent up a consigned letter for me to talk to Jones?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Talk to Jim.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> Yes sir, we wanted him to, uh, share our, uh\u2014 Reverend Jim Jones to share the platform again with us.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Oh, good.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> Ah, if he can\u2019t do it, then will you\u2014 will you come as a representative?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Of course.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> Yeah that\u2019ll be fine. If not\u2014 We\u2019ll send you a letter, we\u2019ll send you a photostatic copy of his letter\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> \u2014 of the, uh, uh, invitation, and we also, we want to know, you know, we said we would uh, finance uh, at least five of his uh, him with five more.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Pardon?<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> We would finance with, to the fair, for him to fly in along with five of his lieutenants or whoever comes.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Oh, well, that\u2019s very kind. Uh, okay, let me\u2014 Do you have our address?<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> Yes sir, we have uh\u2014 You haven\u2019t moved,<\/i> have you?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> No.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> Okay, well, let me get it anyway.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah, uh, it may not be the same one I\u2019ll give you, uh. You can send it to my attention.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> Okay, just a minute, now let me write this down. All right? (Pause) Yes sir.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Michael Prokes.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> Michael?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> P-r-o-k-e-s.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> r-o-k-e-s?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yes.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> Have I met you?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Pardon.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> Mi\u2014 Michael?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yes.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> I think I met you\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Right, right, we had dinner there at uh, your restaurant.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> (Unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yes.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> Okay. Michael Prokes. Right.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> And it\u2019s just Peoples Temple, and then, Post Office Box 15157.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> 15157.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Right. San Francisco 94115.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> San Francisco, right?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> 94415?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> 94115.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> 115.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Right. And what\u2019s the date again?<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> June the twelfth.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> June twelfth.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> Um-hmm.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Okay. Well, we\u2019ll have so\u2014 uh, he or myself, depending on what his situation is.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> Right. We\u2019ll send you the, uh, invitation along with the, uh, accepting letter where he uh, accept the invitation, okay?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> And I thank you very much.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Thank you, sir.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> Be careful, and take care.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> You too.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> Give all the members my love and greetings, and make sure you extend my love and greetings from me and the believers here in this area to Reverend Jim Jones, and tell him out prayers will go out for him. I will mention it to the, uh, body today that he is uh, sort of convalescing in South America.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Okay, he, he\u2019s doing much better, it\u2019s just a matter of uh, uh, you know, lessening, letting up on his schedule some, but uh, I see no major problem at this time.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> I can understand it, because he is a very good man, he needs the rest.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> I understand exactly what he\u2019s, what you\u2019re saying.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Thank you for your good wishes, and I\u2019ll pass them along.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> Thank you very much.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Thank you, sir. Bye-bye.<\/p>\n

Muhammad:<\/b> Bye-bye.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Part 3 \u2014 Ongoing conversation between Mike Prokes and a reporter<\/strong><\/p>\n

(See also Tape Q 629, Part 4, for earlier conversation with same reporter)<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Uh, we found out some information regarding Marshall Kilduff, which I thought you might like to know. It\u2019s uh, we\u2019ve confirmed the fact that his views<\/i> are uh, an\u2014 uh, antithetical to the political and humanitarian beliefs that, that you<\/i> hold.<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Um-hmm?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> And that uh, uh, he generally just, you know, opposes<\/i> everything that uh, you know, that we<\/i> stand for, that he also has very highly-questionable connections\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Huh!<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> \u2014 of the nature that, uh, people like us should be wary of.<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Huh!<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> And uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Is that fairly, knowledge you feel fairly firm about?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Pardon?<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Is that knowledge you feel fairly firm about? I mean\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yes.<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> And uh, what, you know, you think about us personally is largely irrelevant, but I can<\/i> tell you, we\u2019re not<\/i> naive in these areas, and we\u2019re not as paranoid as some people think. We do have sources that know what they\u2019re talking about. And I just felt that it was incumbent on me to get back to you, though we may not see eye-to-eye on all things, because, you know, he may be using<\/i> people like yourself. I mean this doesn\u2019t just involve Peoples Temple, but others as well who think along similar lines.<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Hmm.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> And uh, I thought that, uh, he may have gotten back to you.<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> He did. There was a message that he had called, uh, Wednesday or Thursday, ah, just a message that he had called, not uh, you know, no callback number or anything, and I haven\u2019t gotten any me\u2014 any call from him since<\/i> then.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Um-hmm, um-hmm.<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> So I don\u2019t know what, what it was he would be calling me about.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Okay, so, you don\u2019t really know any more than the last time we talked.<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> No, no. That was the only contact.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Were you planning on returning his call?<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> I hav\u2014 No, there was no request to return the call, just a message that he had called, so I\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Uh, I wasn\u2019t planning to talk to him unless he does catch me in.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah. Well, are you\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Are you\u2014 When I last talked to you, you said you were thinking of bringing a libel suit against\u2014 or slander suit?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah, well, the attorneys are uh, I think that that\u2019s going to happen.<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Uh-huh.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Uh, they\u2019re uh, putting something together there\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Hmm.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> \u2014 the information that we have. And again, uh, it will determine his course of action\u2014 I mean, his<\/i> course of action will determine what we do.<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Um-hmm.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> And that\u2019s why, uh, if he does get back to you, we\u2019d, you know, appreciate it your letting us know, in light of this new information that we have.<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Um-hmm.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> And I suspect that he will, because, uh, we also<\/i> know that he contacted one person who, uh, knows about us, and, uh, asked him questions. They used to attend. And, uh, you know, he asked a lot of personal questions and at the end, uh, you know, they\u2014 they stopped answering questions. It just, uh, got to be too much.<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Um-hmm.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> And, uh, he, according to them, said that he would continue bothering<\/i> them until he got what he wanted.<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Huh!<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> And, uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Strange behavior.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> That\u2019s what, you know, uh, I guess prompted them to contact us, so\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Huh!<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> But uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Is he still\u2014 At the time<\/i>, when I had contacted him, he was doing this for, uh\u2014 not New West<\/i>, the other one, San Francisco Magazine<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Is that what he\u2019s still planning to do?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> That\u2019s, uh\u2014 As far as we know.<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Uh-huh. Hmm.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Have you heard anything different?<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> No, no, that was the only thing I\u2019ve heard. He had also said there was someone from New West<\/i> Magazine<\/i> who, even though he had been pulled off it, a man named Phil Tracy who might be doing something.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Who, Phil?<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Yeah. Do you know him?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah, I do know Phil.<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Uh, I don\u2019t know if he is planning to or not but\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> I think maybe later on.<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Uh-huh.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> He\u2019s doing\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> He\u2019s a very experienced, uh, reporter. He, uh, used to work, as you know, for the Village Voice<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Mmm-hmm. Yeah, uh, he\u2014 (Laughs.) He\u2019s very prolific.<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Well, uh, okay, I just wanted to bring that to your attention.<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Okay, and, uh, if I do, you know, if there is any contact that would be of interest to you, I\u2019ll try to get back to you, but I\u2014 As of this point, uh, unless he persists in trying to reach me, uh, you know, I would not be returning his call.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Thanks a lot (unintelligible name).<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Bye bye.<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Bye bye.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Part 4 \u2014 Phone conversation between Temple member Chris Lewis and an unidentified man named Charles Walker<\/strong><\/p>\n

Ringing phone. Dead tape. Baby crying.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> Can you close the door please?<\/p>\n

Door closes.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> Yes.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Hey, nigger. What\u2019s happening?<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> Yes.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> (Excited) Listen, man. This ain\u2019t nothing \u2018bout no motherfucking uh, uh, proving<\/i> nothing to nobody. I was just asked for a favor, this motherfucker fuck with me, if for some reason, this old pickle would think that you on his own side or some<\/i> old kind of shit and that\u2019s what that is, so you know, if if if if if I (unintelligible) wrong yesterday cause I\u2014 I just heard<\/i> that shit and I was really<\/i> pissed off but it ain\u2019t about proving to me. You supposed to be cool. And if you want\u2014 you know, I do a favor for you, and I figure you do it for me too. I want this pecker off my back. And he brags, yeah well, I got Charlie Walker on my side and bipdebip and bopdobop.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> Who is the cracker, man?<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Huh? Dude name Kirkendoff, Kirkoff or Chilledoff, Marshall Kilduff for the Chronicle<\/i> or some old kind of shit.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> Who do they mean, they got me on his side. You know, they always write shit about me and then\u2014<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> I know, but I\u2019m just checking what the pecker said, Charles, so what I asked you is I just want you to do me a favor, man, and just call this old pecker, you know, I want, I want, you know, (stumbles for the words) and find out why he, you know, what he, what he coming from or whatever, you know.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> He leave a phone number?<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Huh?<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> Hello?<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> I\u2019m on the phone. Yeah. Look. It\u2019s 236-<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> On the phone.<\/p>\n

Woman talks low.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> I\u2019m on the goddamn phone.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> Well, who is this?<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> (Yells) None of your goddamned business. Will you get off the phone?<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> No, I won\u2019t. What are you doing on this line, please?<\/p>\n

(Phone being muffled.)<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> What\u2019s the number?<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> Who\u2019s on the phone?<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Will you get off the phone?<\/p>\n

Long pause.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> What\u2019s, what the\u2014<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Let me, let, let me get this (unintelligible word) number?<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> It\u2019s 236-<\/p>\n

Long pause.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Hey man.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Hey Charles.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Listen man, the dude\u2014 I\u2014\u00a0Let me see, I gotta get it, \u2018cause, my old lady ain\u2019t here, man\u2014<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> It\u2019s 236-<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> No let me, let me make sure \u2018cause I\u2014 Let me make sure I got the mother fucker right. (Pause) \u2018Cause this old pecker. (Pause) Shit. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> Well, just what did he say?<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Let me see. Here it is, here it is, \u2018cause it\u2019s, uh, 391-3608.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> 391-3608.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Yeah, you know, like I was wanting to meet with this old pecker, whatever, I\u2019m gonna call him too, cause I\u2019m gonna find out where he\u2019s coming from in regards to me and shit, you know. But look, well look, (struggles for words) Let\u2019s get together tomorrow sometime and and and and do\u2014 you know, Charles, let\u2019s get together on this one, okay? And then anything I\u2014\u00a0anything(struggles for words) If you do this one, I owe you one, you know, like, and I pay mine, so if you help me out, I\u2019ll look out for you.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> (Asks several times) What\u2019s his name?<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Uh, Marshall Kilduff.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> Marshall\u2014<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Kirkendoff, Kilduff, or some old shit.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> How you spell it?<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> I don\u2019t know. K-a-l-d-o-f or something. Kilduff, Marshall Kilduff or something.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> Okay. I\u2019m gonna call my friend.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> All right.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> I got a friend in intelligence. I\u2019ll just call and find out who he is.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> All right, and Charles, you do this for me, I swear I owe you one, man, anytime you can collect on it, okay?<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> What did he say to you exactly?<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Well he didn\u2019t say, you know (struggles for words) I got my wife living in Richmond. I don\u2019t know how he got her number and shit, but he called and asked her some, you know (struggles for words) \u2018bout I had the car with me when you was telling me about this fool at Broadway Plumbing.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> Who is?<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Well, that\u2019s my wife, all right? So he done got her number and he start telling her some old kind of\u2014 call her and tell her some old kind of shit about me, and you know, what\u2014 asked me about my environment with Peoples Temple, and my environment with contractors and my environment with (unintelligible name \u2014 Jane?)\u2014 but she don\u2019t know all this shit, you know, and so you know, like\u2014<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> Ah, he was asking her those<\/i> kinds of questions\u2014<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Yeah, all kinds of shit like that\u2014<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> Well, let me tell you something so that you righteously<\/i> understand it then.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> All right.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> They been asking\u2014 Two or three of them been going around asking that question about everybody\u2019s involved in Peoples Temple, okay?<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> And I\u2019m going to tell you why<\/i> they been doing it, okay?<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> Because, some of them guys that supposed to be bodyguards<\/i> of uh\u2014 Jim Jones, carry a gun.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> And they know<\/i> it.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Hmm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> And one of them men with the Housing<\/i> Authority police, saw<\/i> one of them with a, with packing.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Hmm.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> The Housing<\/i> Authority police told the San Francisco<\/i> police, and they been launching investigation against<\/i> Jim Jones.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Um-hmm.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> Now, what all of that shit\u2019s about\u2014 \u2018cause they asked me what did I<\/i> know about it\u2014<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Mmm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> I don\u2019t know nothing<\/i> about you<\/i>, I don\u2019t know nothing about Jim Jones, I don\u2019t\u2014 and if I did know<\/i> anything about him\u2014\u00a0I ain\u2019t going to have them white folks have me standing up in front of me and the motherfuckers ask me a lot of questions of did you say this and did you say that?<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Yeah, right.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> \u2018Cause I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> All right.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> You understand? I don\u2019t know nothing about you but your name is Chris Lewis. That\u2019s all I know.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> All right.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> That\u2019s all I want<\/i> to know.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> All right. Well actually\u2014 Well look. I ain\u2019t going to hold you up, but Charles, do this for me and I owe you one, all right?<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> Yeah. I only want to know\u2014<\/p>\n

Electronic tone.<\/p>\n

Operator:<\/b> Excuse me, this is the operator. We have an emergency. (unintelligible) Can you get off the line?<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> No operator, we\u2019re talking right now.<\/p>\n

Operator:<\/b> Thank you.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> Yeah man, uh, this nigger calling about some bullshit, but uh, uh, what I was doing, is uh, I\u2019ll find out what it\u2019s all about.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> All right. I appreciate that, Charles.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> And then uh, where you gonna be tomorrow?<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Well, I be up on the hill tomorrow. (Pause) By that service center up on top of the hill.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> Uh, I\u2019m not going be nowhere\u2014<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Well, where do you want me to be? I\u2019ll be wherever you want me to be tomorrow, \u2018cause\u2014<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> What time you going to be up there?<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Well, I, no\u2014 it don\u2019t make no difference. Wherever you want me to be, I be there. Just tell me a time.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> Well, you see tomorrow, I gotta be at my lawyer\u2019s, you know?<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> Because, uh, I\u2019m, ah, just got hold of some money, man.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Mm.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> And I\u2019m busy trying to take care of that<\/i> shit.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> I ain\u2019t been doing too much other than trying to get my contract with the Housing Authority, but I don\u2019t know\u2014 I don\u2019t know why, man. I\u2019m going to tell you something. I don\u2019t know if you like it or not.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> But they are really really really really trying to find out what\u2019s with Jim Jones, man.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> And everybody that\u2019s associated with him. Is he still off sick?<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Huh? (struggles for words) He\u2019s supposed to be over to Zaire or some other mother fucking where.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> He supposed to be sick, ain\u2019t he?<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Huh? No, he all right. He\u2019s in Zaire or some other mother fucking where.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> Well, didn\u2019t he pass out?<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> Huh?<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Yeah. At that Housing Authority meeting.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> Is he still off from the Housing Authority?<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> Will he be back Thursday?<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> I don\u2019t know, Charles. I can\u2019t\u2014\u00a0I\u2014 Really, really, I don\u2019t. I can find out and let you know.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> I\u2019m talking about for the meeting<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> I don\u2019t know. I\u2019ll find out and let you know tomorrow.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> Well, anyway, it doesn\u2019t matter whether he\u2019ll be back for the meeting or not, it\u2019s just that\u2014 it\u2019s just that there\u2019s a lot<\/i> of people that want to know about Jim Jones, man. There\u2019s a lots<\/i> of people. And there\u2019s a lot of people want to know about them brothers packing<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Mmm.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> You better tell\u2014 I told you before that that wasn\u2019t a good idea of Jim\u2019s.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Yeah, yeah, uh-huh.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> And I told you, you should tell<\/i> him.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> Don\u2019t you<\/i> know, man, that all the women in the TPT is intimidated<\/i> by Jim Jones.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> (Pause) Intimidated?<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> (Exasperated) Yeah, man, I told you that before.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Yeah. (struggles for words) I can straighten that part of it out. I can stop that.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> I told<\/i> you that, man, and th\u2014\u00a0when that shit goes on, man, you get a lot of peanut gallery shit afterwards, you know that?<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Right, right.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> You know, people just be running they mouths and talking talking talking and the white folks be just listening listening listening, and before you know<\/i> anything, they got everybody mixed up in their shit.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Whole bunch of shit.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> That\u2019s why I stay back<\/i> from it.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> I don\u2019t want to be mixed up in it.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> That\u2019s what I was telling you last night.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> Wasn\u2019t that I wouldn\u2019t find out<\/i>. It\u2019s just that I don\u2019t want to be mixed up in nothing<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> And that\u2019s the reason I sounded the way I did last night.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> But I got to apologize. Hot\u2014 I just heard I was hot too, so that\u2019s why I called, to apologize on that end, too, cause I didn\u2019t mean it \u2018bout no proof, we did say we would look after each other, you know, so I\u2014<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> Oh you know goddamn well you called me up and asked me man would you do a favor for me?<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> I would do it. It\u2019s just that I don\u2019t want be the one\u2014 I\u2019m just like you, I don\u2019t want to get mixed up in no shit\u2014<\/p>\n

(Talk over each other.)<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> All right. Well, look. Where do you want me to meet you tomorrow?<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> Well, what you do, man, is uh, you just be around tomorrow, you know, in the vicinity.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> All right.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> I\u2019ll find you.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> All right. Slick.<\/p>\n

Walker:<\/b> Yeah, okay.<\/p>\n

Lewis:<\/b> All right. Later, Charles.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Side 2<\/p>\n

Part 5: Meeting in Sacramento area with Jean Brown and Michael Prokes of Peoples Temple, and several community members<\/strong><\/p>\n

(Ed. note: Because of the noise in the background of the tape, and its low quality, this is not a 100% transcription. All the words are ones the speakers used, and the larger chunks are virtually verbatim, but it has already had a preliminary edit in transcription.)<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Jean Brown, who\u2019s in my church, works in housing, and she can tell you how terrible housing conditions are, and this is in San Francisco, which I hear is better than most large cities, uh, her\u2014 the housing is terrible<\/i>, and even the uh\u2014 I was going to ask, how many saw the, uh, documentary that Bill Moyers of CBS did on the uh, Boston situation \u2014 was it Boston or the Bronx? \u2014 where, yeah, um, I think they burned something like uh, 10,000<\/i> buildings in one year.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> I saw that.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Did you see that?<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> Um-hmm.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> I<\/i> did not see it, and now uh, I\u2019m really sad that I missed it, because I had so much feedback from it. I understood that there are landlords who uh, even burn<\/i> the uh, their own buildings to get the insurance after they can no longer, you know, no longer anybody would want to live in them. And this<\/i> is\u2014 I mean, people would be living in it too, while, when they burned it. It\u2019s terrible, you know, how landlords, you know, just they raise the rent, they give eviction notices and the ones who get evicted a lot of time are seniors. I saw recently in San Francisco, they\u2019re going to evict\u2014 they want to raise the rents by 40% or something, and the people were on a fixed income, and they, they couldn\u2019t afford that. And so, he uh, he uh, is in the process of having them evicted, but fortunately, some good people know about it, and we\u2019ll attempt to stop that, because it\u2019s just not right. Why do we do put property rights over human rights? Where, where is our priorities? I think that uh, people need to be concerned about these types of things. Senior citizens shouldn\u2019t have to worry<\/i> about being adequately housed and adequately fed and living on such meager incomes when they\u2019ve worked hard all their lives. I don\u2019t understand it. I really don\u2019t understand it. We\u2019re supposed to be a Christian nation, and yet I see so much suffering. So much suffering. (Pause) (Unintelligible name) Why don\u2019t you talk. I think it\u2019d be very helpful for these people to know what you\u2019re doing.<\/p>\n

Main Speaker: <\/b>I don\u2019t have a lot to say that isn\u2019t, isn\u2019t already said. (Tape stops) \u2014have a stake in what\u2019s going on in their own community. Okay, that\u2019s one<\/i> thing. The other thing is, there is no<\/i> way to get from 44th Street where our church is, one mile down to the Fruitridge Center where all<\/i> of the services that our people need<\/i> are available<\/i>. That means the senior citizens and productive people and youth cannot get from the pocket area to the Fruitridge Center, which is the service<\/i> center where all of the businesses and shops and boutiques and shoe shops and, and the post office\u2014 they can\u2019t get<\/i> there. There\u2019s no way. No way.<\/i> We\u2019re going to address that problem on Tuesday evening. We\u2019re going to say, there\u2019s no way. We\u2019re inviting in the merchants who have a stake<\/i> in where those people\u2019s dollars go<\/i>. You know? And why hasn\u2019t it happened before now? Well, it hasn\u2019t. Okay? But they\u2019re going to be called together. We\u2019re going to talk about that. We think it\u2019s a quickie, winnable kind of a community organization project. Now some other things will be coming up. Our housing project will come up. There is not in our area a library<\/i> satisfactory to meet the needs of the people. Why? We\u2019ve got thirty years of neglect in the pocket area. And the other evening, the board of directors of the neighborhood center invited in the city\/county librarian. He came in, very open, said the reason you don\u2019t have a good library is, that nobody\u2019s asked for it.<\/p>\n

(Woman speaks quietly about pocket area.)<\/p>\n

Speaker: <\/b>Well, it\u2019s the county. It\u2019s the county. It\u2019s the unincorporated part of the county that\u2019s surrounded by the city. Yes, that\u2019s why it\u2019s call a pocket. It\u2019s, it\u2019s\u2014 But you can go from the city to the county and you can tell<\/i> that you\u2019ve gone from one environment into another. (Pause) So next Tuesday, we\u2019re going to address those two needs that are on there, plus the library, uh, then $150,000 is for street lights. You know, turn on the lights so the senior citizens are not frightened to look out their doors in the evening. That\u2019s another kind of project that\u2019s coming along. Yeah I see. Ray.<\/p>\n

(Man speaks softly).<\/p>\n

Speaker: <\/b>Why don\u2019t the county people get in the city?<\/p>\n

Man: <\/b>Yeah.<\/p>\n

Speaker: <\/b>I\u2019m listening to find out why they don\u2019t. I think it\u2019s\u2014 I think it\u2019s an economic kind of a problem.<\/p>\n

Man: <\/b>(speaks softly). This is one of the major problems. For instance, it\u2019s a big battle going on in the city of (unintelligible) Willits(?). It\u2019s a long time battle. (Talks about streets, and police protection, and how some people don\u2019t want to pay their taxes.) These are not poor people. I mean, they\u2019re not. (Unintelligible). The city of Chico\u2019s got, there are more pockets that Carter\u2019s got liver pills. And they\u2019ve had them since I was a boy, ten years old. And that\u2019s a long time ago.<\/p>\n

Speaker: <\/b>Well, I\u2014 I\u2019d invite the Chico church to address its constituency (Laughs.)<\/p>\n

Man: <\/b>I\u2019m just saying, these\u2014 these things go on and, in, in Oroville, we\u2019re doing something about it too.<\/p>\n

Speaker: <\/b>Right.<\/p>\n

Man: <\/b>We\u2019re sick and tired of this stuff, of, uh, uh, a few men and women (unintelligible) who are renting places in those areas are keeping the rest<\/i> of the community from having sidewalks, streets and lights and gutters and sanitary (unintelligible) not telephone, and PG&E. They wouldn\u2019t even have that. (Too soft). And you\u2019re going to say, you\u2019re going to raise the taxes on some fool widow\u2019s sons. (Lot of rambling by older man.)<\/p>\n

Speaker: <\/b>Let me say this, that, our first struggle was with the politicians, for, for this reason, that they would use the statistics of the Furbage\u00a0pocket area to get block grant revenue sharing funds to come to Sacramento County. Number one, many of those people have already been paying for services they were not getting, because the, the the capital development is not there. Secondly, their<\/i> poverty would be sent to Washington as an appeal for their percentage of those kinds of funds to come, they would hit downtown and they\u2019d spread out all over the county. The housing and redevelopment agency of Sacramento County receives the money to do<\/i> jobs where the need<\/i> is. What happens? Seven percent of the money that came, came to the pocket area. It\u2019s demonstrated that 50% of the need is in the pocket area. Somebody\u2014 somebody is making some decisions for peoples\u2019 lives when they\u2019re not involved in it, so what we\u2019re trying to do is just to keep the process honest and open and keeping the pot stirred. (Sentence unintelligible)<\/p>\n

(Man rambles)<\/p>\n

Older woman:<\/b> What we\u2019re saying is that the church should be pioneering, and spread it through the community.<\/p>\n

Speaker: <\/b>You\u2019d think it would have pioneered by now.<\/p>\n

Older woman:<\/b> I mean, this is the role of the church.<\/p>\n

Speaker: <\/b>Of course.<\/p>\n

Second woman:<\/b> I\u2019m wondering though if uh, many of us, you know, hearing all of this, you know, wondering where to start. Now I think, ah, I recall there was an alcoholic anonymous group that came to my church once, and asked for a place. That\u2019s something that probably most of us would find we could start something.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Well, certainly it is, and uh, because there are alcoholics in every community. And that\u2019s one of the biggest problems\u2014<\/p>\n

Second woman:<\/b> And they do<\/i> have a hard time finding a place for their activities.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Yes, and uh, you know, why, why is<\/i> it that our society has more alcoholics. I wonder what it is that drives people to drink. Jean?<\/p>\n

Jean Brown:<\/b> I\u2019d just like to contribute one word, because, I, I understand, I understand your question, where do we start. But one thing, one thing that has meant so much to me in this church and community, uh, involvement is that in a very personal<\/i> sense, uh, I\u2019ve been a teacher for six years and have felt the frustrations of a classroom of some 35 youngsters that you never reach<\/i>. There\u2019s no way to reach that many youngsters in one spot. Also under the, uh\u2014 It just isn\u2019t possible. If you do tell them, if you do convey any values (struggles for words) it\u2019s just really frustration. I guess you probably know what I\u2019m talking about, but at the Temple, youngsters come in after school, and I\u2019m able to involve myself with them in their lives<\/i>. I can, can talk with them, work with them, be with them, share with them in a sense I could never do in a classroom. And it\u2019s also a learning process, of course, too. I\u2019ve seen youngsters who were classified retarded<\/i> be, be tutored<\/i>, myself personally involved, and uh, have, have them excel<\/i> in their classes with that kind of back-up. And the, the thing that keeps coming to my mind is how, you know, what does this mean to me? That kind of thing that, that\u2014 It says in the Bible, you know, seek first the kingdom and all these things shall be added unto you, and I think, I think that\u2019s true for me in a very real sense, because when I know\u2014 I have friends who are involved in assertiveness training, and I know that\u2019s very real and that\u2019s very important, but somehow, that\u2019s just happened to me. It wasn\u2019t something I conscientiously went after to learn how to assert yourself. Somehow doing it and being involved in programs like this that mean so much, these things happen. Or my sense of evangelism or whatever. To me, it\u2019s not set that we don\u2019t evangelize two days a week. It\u2019s, it\u2019s a, it\u2019s part of me and it\u2019s a new way of looking at life and I feel a very deep meaning and sense of my, in my, in my Christian upbringing. (Unintelligible) I just thought I\u2019d contribute that, because I do know that, when you\u2019re talking about programs, it\u2019s easy to talk about something that seems so abstract but it is a very deep personal fulfillment.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Thank you. There\u2019s certainly\u2014 I mean, there\u2019s need all around us. Everywhere we look. And what a church could do that decided it wanted to become involved is to gather those who want to be part of that process into a meeting and come up with suggestions and priority<\/i> needs, you know, the greatest needs they, they see around them in, in their community and in their own church<\/i>. Because of course church<\/i> has first the responsibility to take care of the household of the faith, and if every<\/i> church would at least attempt to do<\/i> this, then, we would take a great burden off of the government. This<\/i> is really the answer to the welfare state, is the churches. If they would just try to take care of the needs of their own<\/i> household of the faith, then that burden would come off government bureaucracy, and that government would be freed to deal with other priorities. And it would be a stronger<\/i> government, and also a greater deterrent to threats to the system. But uh, I think needs first have to be identified<\/i>, and then, if it\u2019s a democratic process, as ours is, we vote on, you know, which is uh, the greatest<\/i> need, the greatest priority, and then, determine what sort of resources you have to meet that need and begin to set up a structure to deal with it. But uh, it\u2019s a\u2014\u00a0we find that the more people are involved, the better, I mean, the more ideas. We do things democratically, where the whole congregation<\/i> is involved in major decisions. And we\u2019ve had cases where uh, almost everybody in the church would feel one way about a certain issue, but there would be one person or two persons dissenting, and expressing their opinion. They have that right. Sometimes it\u2019s a little child, and uh, that has in the past turned the whole uh, congregation around<\/i>, because they had the information that was lacking. There\u2019s\u2014 there\u2019s some knowledge<\/i> there that no one else had. And it changed their\u2014 the decision. So I think things must be done and we shouldn\u2019t be\u2014 decisions shouldn\u2019t be made by a pastor, an elder, a board member, any particular board member. I think the more involvement, uh, the better. But uh, I would like to hear from more people here, if they have programs in their church, to share them, or if anyone has questions on what they\u2019ve heard so far.<\/p>\n

Older woman:<\/b> (Question about feeding people)<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Well, our people, our committee go to\u2014 they just start going everywhere they could think of. Wholesale outlets, coops, people \u2014 Safeway, right \u2014 people that supply the big supermarkets, and uh, the thing that is happening, food is, is being thrown away<\/i>, it\u2019s being wasted<\/i>. Anybody could get it if they just themselves to be, you know, legitimate, have a legitimate need, you can get it. And it\u2019s a crime<\/i>, when two out of three babies are going to bed hungry in the world, that we\u2019re wasting food. We have a picture up in our dining hall that shows a woman who is starving, her breasts are deflated and her child is trying to get nourishment from them. And the child is obviously starving. His stomach is distended and uh, it\u2019s amazing, how the plates are clean at the end of a meal. When you look at that\u2014 I mean, you don\u2019t want to waste food, when you know there are people like that, who\u2014 they<\/i> didn\u2019t do anything to bring themselves into that situation, they were born into<\/i> it, and there are millions<\/i> of them. And you know, how can we justify wasting food? We don\u2019t put it up there to make people feel guilty, but I\u2019m not so sure they shouldn\u2019t<\/i> feel guilt. It may not be their responsibility, or their fault<\/i>, that that person is hungry, but it seems to me that you know \u2014 how can we not \u2014 if we care about people and, you know, we claim love as Jesus taught, then, you know, that love should reach out to everyone, including those who are hungry, so when we take a bite of food, know that there are so many who cannot<\/i>, that I think a person who has any conscience would feel<\/i> some guilt, and want to do<\/i> something about such conditions in their own small way, whatever way that might be. I think that\u2019s the duty<\/i>, it\u2019s our duty<\/i> to do so.<\/p>\n

Older woman:<\/b> How many of our churches take care of all their seniors, are responsible for all their seniors, are responsible for all their youth<\/i>, are responsible for all immediate children in the congregation?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> I think relatively few, relatively few compared to all the churches that there are. But where else do they have to turn, but to their churches?<\/p>\n

Older woman:<\/b> Because I work with volunteer services and lots of help\u2014\u00a0we get all these calls for help, transportation and all, every<\/i> one of them belong to some church, every one of these seniors that calls and say, could you have somebody take me to the doctor, or whatever it is. So I just feel that if all of the churches were taking the responsibility for their own congregation, it would be a big help.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> So many seniors that are shut in their own apartments, that, you know, they\u2019re afraid to leave, because, you know, they\u2019ll go to the bank to cash their check, and they get robbed.<\/p>\n

Brown:<\/b> This brings to mind one thing that we always do which is, our pastor has always from the start, ever since I\u2019ve been at the Peoples Temple, I can remember, the first few, maybe ten, fifteen minutes of service \u2014 course, we have longer<\/i> services than an hour \u2014 and maybe you have to be willing to spend more than one hour in church on Sunday morning, for instance\u2014\u00a0but we always make sure that every senior has a ride home before church starts. And also if there\u2019s anyone who has<\/i> a doctor\u2019s appointment during the week, that the ride is arranged. And these things become elements of the service. Again, you have to have a certain tolerance for a little more, you know, a little more give-and-take. And you can\u2019t start chomping at the bit at eleven o\u2019clock for service to be out, you know, there might be someone\u2019s need yet unmet. But we always try to bring these things out and deal with them right there. It sure means a lot. A lot of time, it\u2019s just a matter of communication, to be willing to go (unintelligible).<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> There\u2019s a fear<\/i>, there\u2019s a fear in this society of going out for, like, evening<\/i> services, or evening meetings, because of violence on buses<\/i>, bus system, you know, but if people have the reassurance that they\u2019ll have transportation, I think people will be more involved, if they want to. Because nobody wants to stay indoors all day, but the crime is getting so bad, and the blame is being placed on all the wrong places. The police want to create more law enforcement and more policemen and come down with more force, that\u2019s not going to stop the crime rate. It\u2019s environmental conditions<\/i> that cause the crime rate to go up. People don\u2019t do things in a vacuum, they do it because there\u2019s need<\/i>, and there\u2019s deprivation. We had an FBI agent come to our church, and he met with some of us before he spoke, and he talked about crime, and he said how every person has this seed of sin within them. And we stopped him right there. We said, “This isn\u2019t true.” We know from our own experience that crime isn\u2019t something that\u2019s born<\/i> within a person, it\u2019s something that\u2019s created<\/i>, it\u2019s something that\u2019s learned<\/i>, it\u2019s something that comes out of necessity. People aren\u2019t born good and bad, they develop that way. To say otherwise is to say they\u2019re inferior, that God<\/i> created people inferior on some different levels. But that\u2019s not what our Bible tells us.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> You see babies in the nurseries in the hospital, and they all look like little angels.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> They are\u2014<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> They are until their environment changes.<\/p>\n

(Low conversation, indecipherable. Comment \u2014 on tape \u2014\u00a0that it\u2019s noisy, and Michael is asked to recap the question.)<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> He was saying, how do you get people involved in the church that have been busy. The ones who want to get involved, most of them are ones who are involved in other things. They have their jobs, they may have other community involvements, and they\u2019re not around, you know, they\u2019re doing other things during normal hours. In case of our church, there are very few who \u2014 like me \u2014 work full-time. I\u2019m only one of several. What we draw on is people who come in when they can<\/i>, but we try to get a schedule<\/i> when they\u2019re able to develop so much time, we try to pin down a time when we can count on them that they\u2019ll be in, you know, they\u2019ll come into the church. These are ongoing programs, you know, there\u2019re different ones they might help with, whether it\u2019s day care or senior programs, or tutoring or any number of programs. People come in, and you have to try to get a schedule, when you know<\/i> you can count<\/i> on people. If it\u2019s not during the normal business day, or day hours, certain things have to be dealt with in the early evening hours. You mentioned a justice committee\u2014<\/p>\n

(Low conversation, indecipherable.)<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> And of course that would determine the types of programs you can get involved<\/i> in. Some programs you can\u2019t do at night, I\u2019m sure.<\/p>\n

(Low conversation, indecipherable.)<\/p>\n

(A pastor from another church talks about involvement of his church in local groups and activities. Not transcribed.)<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Not all congregations are going to be able<\/i> to involve themselves in ways that they would like<\/i>, due to their members\u2019 schedules and the numbers of members, but they can do what Tom\u2019s church has done, certainly, and that\u2019s to become facilitators<\/i> of programs that reach out, and that would involve people who don\u2019t even go<\/i> to the church. Or, allowing some outside group to use the facility, in having whatever members can<\/i> get involved with that outside group. But the point<\/i> is that I think we\u2019re addressing ourselves to is that the church must \u2014 and in these times should \u2014 reach out in some way, whether it be with its own members or with others or with both, in whatever way it can. That\u2019s the whole, the main duty.<\/p>\n

(Low conversation, indecipherable.)<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> By the way, I didn\u2019t finish with the story about the FBI man. After we challenged him on his idea that everybody has a seed of sin or crime within them, we took him through our program, we had him talk with some of our ex-convicts and others that we have rehabilitated, and when he ended up giving his talk, he talked about how the environment affects our lives, using virtually the same words that we had expressed to him, which was, to change, he was changed very quickly, and I don\u2019t know if he\u2019s in very good stead with his higher-ups at this point, but he certainly has a different view. It\u2019s a view that he had never seen. He\u2019d just been educated out of some academic text that\u2019s prepared for him by others who\u2019ve never even seen the seedier side of life, which is what we face every day. And it was encouraging. And I\u2019m glad to hear at least there\u2019s an interest in criminal justice because this area, it\u2019s unbelievable<\/i> what\u2019s happening. We<\/i> have gotten last year hundreds out of jail and some that were headed for jail, free<\/i>, that would be in prison today, simply because they could not afford an attorney. It\u2019s fortunate for us that several members of our church are<\/i> attorneys, and they all work on our legal staff. They devote the time they can. Some have practices, others are able to give more time, because they\u2019re not in a firm. They defend people who can\u2019t afford adequate legal representation. These hundreds that I\u2019m talking about would have ended up in jail, and I would say close to 100% of them were innocent. We\u2019re talking about innocent persons. My question is, how many more are in jail today all over the country who are innocent.<\/p>\n

(Low conversation, indecipherable.)<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Mistaken identity, a lot of mistaken identity, because people point their finger at a black<\/i> person, because it\u2019s true, so many people think that person\u2019s black (unintelligible). It\u2019s really terrible. Others were set up and harassed and framed, and there\u2019s something wrong with that kind of thing where the rich are able to buy their way to freedom. Patty Hearst is an example. Do you think if she\u2019s wasn\u2019t know that she\u2019d be out? She may do some time, but I think it\u2019ll only be to show that the system works and that it doesn\u2019t favor the rich, but it does<\/i> favor the rich, because money is what\u2019s behind this society. It is<\/i> the root of all evil. I\u2019m convinced of it. We see how it works every day. Watergate helped show it. And I agree<\/i> with those who say Watergate was the tip of the iceberg. There are things going\u2014 We had a person come to our Temple to speak who was a mayor in Mississippi. She happened to be a black woman. She talked about her trip to China. She didn\u2019t speak about it in glowing terms. She just talked about it in terms of their meeting their own<\/i> needs. And it is<\/i> phenomenal that you can feed<\/i> every person when you have a fourth or a fifth of the world\u2019s population. I say that\u2019s an achievement. It may not work for us<\/i>, but it\u2019s working for them, so she told<\/i> about it. She told<\/i> about how there\u2019s virtually no crime. She saw<\/i> it, she stayed there a long time. She went with the first delegation of women which also included Shirley MacLaine, the actress. And she came, she told us about it. And outside of our building were two men with a briefcase. And when our people who greet guests went out to approach them, they ran for their car. Well, we ran after them. We wanted to see what they were up to. And as they drove off, we got their license plate. Fortunately, we have some people in our church that have various contacts and are investigators in newspaper work, and they traced these guys to the state where she came from. They came from an Air Force base, Kessler Air Force Base, and they work under [U.S.] Senator [John] Stennis who has his own CIA-type operation, if you can believe it. It\u2019s true. But when we tried to expose it, nobody wanted to handle it. It was too hot to handle. But it\u2019s true, because we had their license, we had their names, their signatures at a car rental agency. They came in a rented car. And when we wrote Congress, Stennis sent back, answered the congressman contacted and said they were not in California on that date. Which is a lie. So, who knows all the things that are going on in this country? But why was that<\/i> woman a threat? Well, I guess they didn\u2019t like her talking about another country. And they didn\u2019t like the fact that a black woman had become a mayor, particularly in Mississippi.<\/p>\n

(A member of the Arden church speaks to end of tape.)<\/p>\n

Tape originally posted January 1999<\/b><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you. To return to the Tape Index, click here. To read the Tape Summary, click here. Listen to MP3 (Side 1, Side 2). Part 1 (Ed. note: The following paragraph was recorded three times, with slight variations […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":6,"featured_media":0,"parent":27291,"menu_order":415,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-27505","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27505","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/6"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=27505"}],"version-history":[{"count":8,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27505\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":60161,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27505\/revisions\/60161"}],"up":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27291"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=27505"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}