{"id":27523,"date":"2013-06-16T00:20:48","date_gmt":"2013-06-16T00:20:48","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/alternativejonestown.com\/?page_id=27523"},"modified":"2014-04-11T10:42:48","modified_gmt":"2014-04-11T10:42:48","slug":"q665","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=27523","title":{"rendered":"Q665 Transcript"},"content":{"rendered":"

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.<\/strong><\/i><\/p>\n

To return to the Tape Index, click here<\/a>.
\nTo read the Tape Summary, click here<\/a>. To listen to MP3, click here<\/a>.<\/p>\n

Side 1: <\/b>Unintelligible. Sounds like a meeting of some sort, but background noise is overwhelming, Mike Prokes talks about Tim Reiterman and articles, but I can\u2019t tell what the context is, or when it occurred.<\/p>\n

Side 2:<\/strong><\/p>\n

Continuation of meeting for few minutes.<\/p>\n

Segment 2: <\/em><\/b>This segment is the third in a series of Channel 2 news reports from August 1977 that begins with Q 680<\/a> and continues with Q 681<\/a>.<\/em><\/p>\n

Newscaster: \u2014 <\/b>San Francisco church headed by the Reverend Jim Jones. Tonight we look at church finances and where some of the money is going.<\/p>\n

(“Oh my God,” says woman at recording end.)<\/p>\n

Jim Clancy:<\/b> Most believe in God, and most people, if they met him face to face, would do whatever he wanted them to. And most people here at the Peoples Temple in San Francisco believe that the Reverend Jim Jones was<\/i> God. How did he convince them? Well, there\u2019s a variety of means. Some of them were working miracles. Others were revelations. (Tape cut)<\/p>\n

Apostate 1:<\/b> It was just too, uh, dedicated, and I wasn\u2019t, that uh\u2014 (tape cut) control Charles Manson had over his followers. And think about some of the statements that they\u2019ve signed, that they would kill<\/i> people. (Tape cut)<\/p>\n

Clancy:<\/b> \u2014 bring Reverend Jones, thousands, hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions<\/i> of dollars in offerings from people everywhere<\/i> he went. But where did the money go?<\/p>\n

Apostate 1:<\/b> I\u2019m not at all sure<\/i> what he did<\/i> with all the money, uh, how he spent<\/i> it, that is. I know that he had it buried in several places in Redwood Valley, cash was buried, there were uh, checking, savings accounts all<\/i> over Los Angeles, San Francisco, Lake County, Ukiah, um, and he had total<\/i> control of those accounts. And of course everyone uh, who was a member signed statements saying that he could take all<\/i> of the money at any time and do with it whatever he wanted. Uh, there were thousands<\/i> and thousands and thousands, I would even say millions of dollars, because uh, each time he would take an offering in a meeting<\/i>, and there were four, five, six offerings per meeting, he would always claim that we didn\u2019t get enough, you know, we have uh, uh, certain costs, that we gotta take of\u2014 got to take of, a family that needs feeding or whatever, and we didn\u2019t get enough money. And you take up another offering. And there would be thousands<\/i> in the offering.<\/p>\n

Clancy:<\/b> Did he have any techniques that he used uh, in order to impress people to get more money?<\/p>\n

Apostate 2:<\/b> He certainly would. He would tell people that there were some people in the audience today who, if they did not give, they would drop dead. Um, they would have a heart attack. Um, he would, um\u2014 one time he used to do hexes<\/i>, one time he said that um, um, he knew someone here who wasn\u2019t giving their money and they hadn\u2019t um, collected the amount that he wanted, and he made a sign like this with his hands, and then went like this, and said, now the hex is on you. Um\u2014<\/p>\n

Clancy:<\/b> What effect did it have on the people who you saw?<\/p>\n

Apostate 2:<\/b> Um, we got money<\/i>. We got money, and uh, it\u2014 uh, boy, I tell you, we could get uh, twenty thousand, fifteen thousand uh, totals for weekends, with (which?) his goal.<\/p>\n

Clancy:<\/b> The Reverend Jones, shown here performing some of his miracles in exclusive photos smuggled out of the church by members, is now at his mission in Guyana, South America. It\u2019s called an agricultural<\/i> mission, and many of his followers believe it will be their refuge during an upcoming white supremacist takeover, according to former believers. Reverend Jones is reportedly forced to stay in the South American country because of a serious ear<\/i> infection. Peoples Temple supporters say he wants very much to come back and answer the charges that have been leveled against him for his so-called healings<\/i>. But sources inside the church have been telling different stories. They say many of the upper echelon members are preparing to leave<\/i> the Temple in San Francisco and go to live in Guyana. Today, Temple workers could be seen loading crates onto three flatbed trailers for a trip that will reportedly end in Miami, where they will be transferred to a ship<\/i>. This isn\u2019t the first time such shipments have been made, but important figures in the Peoples Temple hierarchy are unavailable to us at all hours of the day and night, and they no longer return phone calls. Peoples Temple workers merely say things like, “The Reverend Michael Prokes is not here. If you have any questions, please call our attorney.” Jim Clancy, Channel 2 Action News, San Francisco.<\/p>\n

Segment 3:<\/strong> cut into phone call between Prokes and attorney:<\/em><\/p>\n

Attorney:<\/b> \u2014 in this world, that, you know, whatever else is going\u2014 I mean, even if it\u2019s all true<\/i>, I wouldn\u2019t give a shit, okay. If it were all true, I wouldn\u2019t care. Because what he\u2019s shown me by his (unintelligible), you know, is enough for me.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Uh, (unintelligible), that\u2019s quite a statement.<\/p>\n

Attorney:<\/b> No, I mean it\u2019s true, you know?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Uh, well, I, I agree with that, because, you know, Jim has done so<\/i> many things and, and\u2014 I mean it\u2019s been by his ex\u2014 his example that others have been willing to help the little guy who, who you don\u2019t even hear about.<\/p>\n

Attorney:<\/b> Yes, and see, that, that\u2019s what\u2014 I mean, look, I\u2019ve been around a lot of quote Chri\u2014 Christians, you know, and uh, they\u2019re quite willing to take courage if they only blah blah blah, so only if it redounds to their benefit in some way. And this is the only guy I\u2019ve ever heard<\/i> of who is willing to do the same thing where it doesn\u2019t<\/i> redound to his benefit, where it costs him out of his own pocket<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Attorney:<\/b> And that\u2019s, you know, there\u2019s gotta be something else happening<\/i>. You know what I mean? And that\u2019s, that\u2019s what blew me away.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Well, the, the thing that uh, that struck me when I, when I came was that uh, (struggles for words) if I saw nothing else, this would have done it for me, is people<\/i> coming in, like in the wee hours of the morning, they were strung out on drugs and suicidal, had no<\/i> place else to go, they would have ended up in jail<\/i>, uh, just uh, or dead\u2014<\/p>\n

Attorney:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> And uh, you know, they were taken in, they were put in a uh, structured<\/i> program where they had immediate<\/i> acceptance, but yet gradually came out of it through concern and through, through programs where they could apply their talents and abilities \u2014<\/p>\n

Attorney:<\/b> Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> \u2014 and uh, it, it, you know, would, would fill the\u2014 the vacuum that would cause them to go on drugs or commit crimes in the first place\u2014<\/p>\n

Attorney:<\/b> Sure.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> \u2014 and, and you know, it, there, there have been uh, just countless uh, (struggles for words) this is what makes up our, our congregation<\/i>, and there\u2019s a unity<\/i> here and it\u2019s like a, a large family, and it\u2019s \u2014 I don\u2019t know \u2014 it\u2019s something that\u2019s really indescribable, you really have to live inside\u2014<\/p>\n

Attorney:<\/b> No, I, I, I, I see, and I know what you\u2019re talking about. And it\u2014 I guess that, that\u2019s the thing that, that really has captured<\/i> me about the whole thing, you know, it, it\u2019s just that\u2014 I mean, you know, you want to find fault with the (unintelligible word \u2014\u00a0sounds like “Delancey”), you want to find fault with the uh, uh, you know the drug program, uh, I\u2019m blocking, uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> In Marin?<\/p>\n

Attorney:<\/b> No, in, in, in the city too. Uh, uh, Synanon<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Oh, right, right.<\/p>\n

Attorney:<\/b> Uh, you know, all the\u2014 I mean, anybody that\u2019s doing anything heavy<\/i> is going to be subject to criticism<\/i>\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Okay. And they\u2019re also going to have people who leave and can\u2019t, and have reason why<\/i> they leave\u2014<\/p>\n

(Talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Attorney:<\/b> \u2014 I\u2019ve got a, I, you know, I represent a lot of junkies who, you know, of various sorts, I mean, in my criminal practice<\/i>. And, you know, you\u2019ll get some they\u2019ll go off to Synanon or to uh, (same unintelligible word) or whatever, and you know, they come out two years later and say, Thank God, (unintelligible word) was the best thing that ever happened to me, you know, I\u2019ve really got my head screwed on and blah blah blah, but the, the ones who split<\/i>\u2014 you know, and they bust them on a new beef later<\/i>, ah, no, I can\u2019t do anything for you, schmuck, you ran away from the last program, you know, well, those motherfuckers want to beat my ass and shave my head and blah blah blah, and they\u2019re fucking crazy, and they do this, and they do that\u2014\u00a0Okay<\/i>, you know, that\u2019s a given. Fine. <\/i>They beat your ass and shave your head, you know, you\u2019re a fucking scumbag junkie<\/i>, I wish they\u2019d done that 20 years ago and you wouldn\u2019t have been one.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Right. Yeah yeah.<\/p>\n

Attorney:<\/b> You know something, I, and I don\u2019t have trouble with any of that bullshit, I mean I know<\/i> that, you know, the only way you ever get people to look at themselves is to grab<\/i> them by the goddamn neck and slam them up against the wall and say, look<\/i> what you\u2019re doing<\/i> to yourself.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah, right.<\/p>\n

Attorney:<\/b> You know, I know<\/i> sometimes that you have to grab and you have to shake.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Takes different techniques for different people.<\/p>\n

Attorney:<\/b> Yeah. So\u2014 anyhow, you tell Jim that I just, you know, whatever, anything he needs, call me. I mean, I\u2019m, I\u2019m impressed with him, and I think that he\u2019s doing really good shit. And I think everybody over there is.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> That, that means more than you know to us.<\/p>\n

Attorney:<\/b> No, I mean\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> We\u2019ve had good support, but, you know, I mean\u2014 (Laughs) it, it, you know, you tend to lose your perspective when\u2014<\/p>\n

(talks over each other)<\/p>\n

Attorney:<\/b> I know. Of course you do. (Unintelligible) you get shit on from every side, you sit there thinking, is it worth\u2014 you know, what am I doing<\/i> this for? I could go back to media, make a lot of money, you know, come on, what are you, crazy? You gotta sit there and, you know, live on sixty bucks a week and take abuse too<\/i>? I mean, that<\/i> doesn\u2019t make any sense.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> How\u2019s Karen?<\/p>\n

Attorney:<\/b> (Exhales) She\u2019s doing okay. You know what she\u2019s doing?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Huh?<\/p>\n

Attorney:<\/b> She\u2019s uh, Wally Manuel\u2019s (name?) law clerk.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Oh, really?<\/p>\n

Attorney:<\/b> Yeah. She\u2019s heavy duty.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Good!<\/p>\n

Attorney:<\/b> She\u2019s heavy duty.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Good. Please tell her our love.<\/p>\n

Attorney:<\/b> I will for sure.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> And thank you so much.<\/p>\n

Attorney:<\/b> Yeah, and listen, you know, I, I want you to know, Karen, I\u2019m sure shares my view. I mean she was really upset when she heard about the attack. She called me up and\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Attorney:<\/b> You know, I mean, she was very impressed. And you know, she was also one of these people who had kind of a, you know\u2014\u00a0she\u2019d heard that uh, I don\u2019t know wha\u2014\u00a0you know, that up in uh, Ukiah, kids got spanked<\/i>, I mean, you know who\u2014\u00a0I don\u2019t know what the hell it was\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Attorney:<\/b> \u2014 but\u2014 you know, so she also had one of those, you know\u2014 that was her image and her knowledge, and after the thing with Canoop (?), she said, Jesus, you know, I mean, these are very far out people.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah. If there\u2019s, you know, anything that uh, you\u2019re doing that uh, that you need, you know, support, I could call them or whatever. Let us know.<\/p>\n

Attorney:<\/b> Out of sight. Out of sight. All right. I will for sure.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> We\u2019ll be around. We\u2019re going to pursue the government\u2014<\/p>\n

Attorney:<\/b> I know you will. I\u2014 listen, you\u2019ll, you\u2019ll ride out this bullshit, you\u2019ll be stronger for it, you know.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> (Laughs.) Thanks so much.<\/p>\n

Attorney:<\/b> Take care, Mike.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> You too.<\/p>\n

Attorney:<\/b> Bye bye.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Bye bye.<\/p>\n

Segment 4:<\/strong> Phone call between Mike Prokes and attorney Bob Gnaizda<\/em><\/p>\n

Phone rings.<\/p>\n

Gnaizda:<\/b> Hello, Bob Gnaizda.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Hi, Bob, Mike Prokes here.<\/p>\n

Gnaizda:<\/b> Hey, Mike. How you doing?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Gnaizda:<\/b> Good. I been trying to get in touch<\/i> with you guys.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Oh yeah?<\/p>\n

Gnaizda:<\/b> Haven\u2019t you got any of my messages?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> No.<\/p>\n

Gnaizda:<\/b> Oh, well, I left messages, well, actually, for Jim.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Oh.<\/p>\n

Gnaizda:<\/b> Two or three times.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Mainly I\u2014<\/p>\n

(Talks over each other)<\/p>\n

Gnaizda:<\/b> \u2014came back from vacation.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> First of all, I wanted to give you a, a new number, because the old private line was uh, somebody got it, and we got some, some harassing calls on it.<\/p>\n

Gnaizda:<\/b> All right.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> And uh, it\u2019s 922-9597.<\/p>\n

Gnaizda:<\/b> Okay, fine.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> And then I just wanted to bounce a couple of things off you, and see how you feel about it.<\/p>\n

Gnaizda:<\/b> Sure.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Uh, we\u2019re doing our own investigation of the sources that started all this \u2014<\/p>\n

Gnaizda:<\/b> Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> \u2014 and getting affidavits together to show them for what they are. They\u2019re all<\/i> been involved in uh, various kinds of like, crime, um, some of them, when they were here, tried to get us to do violence as a, you know, a, a tac- tactic, and uh, we\u2019re making our own ammunition. I think there may have been provocateurs from the beginning.<\/p>\n

Gnaizda:<\/b> Umm.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> But uh, others of them molested their own children, they embezzled and stole from the church, even attempted blackmail.<\/p>\n

Gnaizda:<\/b> Hmm.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> We\u2019re getting uh, affidavits to this effect together. Uh. Everyone that, that I\u2019ve talked with \u2014 almost to the person \u2014 uh, has said, whatever you do, don\u2019t call a press conference. Just uh, wait until, you know, the smoke dies down, and then come forth with this stuff, because this is a tactic, it\u2019s a, uh, obviously a carefully-orchestrated smear campaign, they\u2019re using whoever they can, somebody has brought these people together, and they have collaborated on their stories. Uh, there\u2019s a lot<\/i> of inconsistencies. And uh, and they\u2019re saying that uh, and this is Charles Garry\u2019s recommendation, that, you know, we, we do not<\/i> uh, call a press conference either, that, uh, it\u2014 we can\u2019t do anything but (unintelligible) that, and that we should uh, first, you know, get all our documentation together and then uh, release it.<\/p>\n

Gnaizda:<\/b> I think that\u2019s good advice<\/i>. Um \u2014 If you\u2019re right \u2014 okay? \u2014 I, I don\u2019t mean that if you\u2019re right in your<\/i> case, I mean just generally\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Gnaizda:<\/b> \u2014 uh, when you\u2019re right, and you\u2019re attacked, and you\u2019ll clearly<\/i> be able to demonstrate that you are<\/i> right, it is always better to wait the maximum<\/i> time uh, that you can afford to do. In the CRLA [California Rural Legal Assistance, a farmworkers legal representation group] case, when we were attacked \u2014 okay? \u2014\u00a0some people w\u2014 wanted me to go on the at\u2014 go on the attack against [former U.S. Senator George] Murphy and [former California Governor] Ronald Reagan.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Mmm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Gnaizda:<\/b> \u2014 and the congressman, because they were attacking us every day.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Mmm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Gnaizda:<\/b> For three<\/i> weeks, I refused to move.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Hmm.<\/p>\n

Gnaizda:<\/b> And uh, then I, I made one short<\/i> statement \u2014 not much <\/i>\u2014 just a little bit, and then I waited again, and a month later, everybody knew that Reagan and Murphy and (unintelligible name) had lied. Totally<\/i>. And it was so much better\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Mmm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Gnaizda:<\/b> \u2014 than if I had tried to defend us at the beginning.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Mmm-hmm. See, Jim\u2019s going through a lot of anxiety right now.<\/p>\n

Gnaizda:<\/b> Sure.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> He generally does have a, a health problem. He\u2019s lost hearing in one of his ears.<\/p>\n

Gnaizda:<\/b> Oh, wow.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> I don\u2019t think it\u2019s permanent, but he\u2019s going to have it drained soon. And uh, he, you know, naturally<\/i> wants to rip into these people and call them for what they are\u2014<\/p>\n

(Talks over each other)<\/p>\n

Gnaizda:<\/b> Sure, I know that, and the anxiety is so high, that it\u2019s almost<\/i> worth doing anyway<\/i> \u2014\u00a0okay? \u2014 to, to relieve<\/i> that. But<\/i> I don\u2019t think it\u2019s good advice to do it. That\u2019s all. I think Garry is right.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah. That\u2019s what everybody\u2019s been saying, and \u2014 (Talk over each other) \u2014 I, I, I\u2019m very \u2014 have a lot of anxiety myself, because\u2014<\/p>\n

Gnaizda:<\/b> Sure, and\u2014 and in the interim, your people are relating to you differently \u2014 right? \u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Well, some are.<\/p>\n

Gnaizda:<\/b> Sure. What I mean by that, there\u2019s no question that some are\u2014 are observedly<\/i> and others are anyway.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Gnaizda:<\/b> All right? And you\u2019re not as ki\u2014 as useful an organization while the charges hang over you, you know<\/i> that.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n

Gnaizda:<\/b> Okay. But<\/i> I think it\u2019s worth it, if the time frame isn\u2019t too long. In other words, you\u2019re talking about another two to four weeks, right?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Well, I don\u2019t know. That\u2014 that\u2019s<\/i> the question.<\/p>\n

Gnaizda:<\/b> If it\u2019s going to take six months<\/i>, it\u2019s too long.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> (Sighs.) Right. That, that\u2019s the whole question. Um, I don\u2019t, I, like I, I said, I think this is uh, uh, I think this is aimed to really uh, bring us down, because Jim is, is viewed \u2014 and this is something I\u2019ve felt a long time\u2014 (tape cuts off)<\/p>\n

Segment 5:<\/strong> Phone call between Mike Prokes and <\/em>New York Times reporter Leslie Gelb<\/em><\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Okay, sorry.<\/p>\n

Gelb:<\/b> Yeah, right. Are you taping this?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> No.<\/p>\n

Gelb:<\/b> Oh.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Taping?<\/p>\n

Gelb:<\/b> Huh?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> (Laughs) No. Taping.<\/p>\n

Gelb:<\/b> Right. It\u2019s kind of a long<\/i> article actually, you know, it\u2019s a whole page?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Gelb:<\/b> With two photos.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Gelb:<\/b> Um, so uh, okay.<\/p>\n

[Reading]”In the poor black Fillmore district of San Francisco, the Reverend Jim Jones is revered as a good Samaritan with patrons in very high places. As pastor of the Peoples Temple, one of the largest interfaith churches in California, Jones not only claims God\u2019s power to heal the sick, but also wields palpable clout among the city and state political leaders. The governor, lieutenant governor, mayor, sheriff and district attorney have all visited the Temple, and during the 1976 presidential campaign, Jones himself shared a platform with Rosalynn Carter. Last December, the charismatic preacher, who can muster black voters, was named chairman of the San Francisco Housing Authority by Mayor George Moscone. But now George\u2014\u00a0Jones stands accused by 30 former Temple members of building his power through fear, fraud, physical beatings, the appropriation of parishioners\u2019 property, and possible misuse of government funds. The accusations were published in two August issues of New West<\/i> Magazine, which called for an investigation of the Temple\u2019s financial and disciplinary practices. Church representatives promptly denied the charges. But in a pair of surprise moves last week, uh, Jones resigned from the Housing Authority, and District Attorney Joseph Freitas announced that he would look<\/i> into the accusations. No one has yet filed a formal complaint against Jones, who Temple officials said was unreachable at the twen\u2014 church\u2019s 27,000 acre South American farm colony in Guyana. The city\u2019s most powerful politicians still seem solidly behind the controversial minister. Mayor Moscone said he saw\u2014\u00a0has said he saw no evidence that Jones has broken any laws, and in a recent Sunday morning sermon at the Temple, black State Assemblyman Willie Brown labeled the attacks quote a measure of the church\u2019s effectiveness. Close of quote. Jones preaches a religious socialism that he himself it appears is the first to practice. His church, which claims 20,000 members statewide, sponsors a drug rehabilitation program, a free restaurant and medical clinic, and a legal aid service. More radically, Jones encourages his flock to give up their private property and live in low-rent apartments, leased by, by the church from the city. Jones and his wife live modestly above the Temple, where they are raising a multi-racial family of seven adopted children, plus their own son. But his social activi\u2014 activism also<\/i> is expressed as politics<\/i>, and on Election Day, the poor deliver for their leader. In two recent close races for mayor and district attorney, Jones\u2019 regimented followers were considered important to the winners. According to some former church members, however, Jones power is based as much on fear as\u2014 and on fraud as on faith. His services are often held behind locked doors, and even then, Jones is protected by bodyguards. The breakaway parishioners described ritual beatings and humiliating group encounters held at all-night sessions. A former secretary to Jones reported that the preacher faked healings by displaying chicken guts as tissue he had miraculously removed from cancer patients. Others said they had been persuaded into deeding over their homes to the church, and had been talked into giving the Temple government fund\u2014 into the Tem\u2014 talked into giving the Temple government funds they received for running foster care homes. When New West<\/i> first considered investigating the Peoples Temple, the editors were barraged with pleas from politicians and businessmen to kill the story. When the editors persisted, some were harassed at home by anonymous callers. Meanwhile, other local newsmen reported similar coercion, and only when (unintelligible) the pressure campaign appeared a local newspaper column, did ex-members of the Temple volunteer to tell their experiences. In separate<\/i> interviews with Newsweek<\/i>, former followers of Jones corroborated the W\u2014 the New West<\/i> report. Mickey Touchette, 26, told how she and 11 other students slept in a crowded garage and were given a weekly dole of $2 each as members of the Temple commune. Touchette, who is white, said that Jones, who is part American Indian, told them how ugly and horrible it was to be white \u2014 that\u2019s in quotes \u2014 and quote, not to have sex because we were all latent homosexuals. Close quote. Laura Corne\u2014 Cornelius, 52, a black woman, said that Jones promised his followers a haven in Guyana when, as he predicted, fascists took over the U.S. Quote, he said they had a plan to exterminate blacks like they did the Jews, close quote, Cornelius recalled. She also described the ritual by Temple members that dramatized a Ku Klux Klan lynching. That\u2019s why people turned over all they had, she said. He told us the whites would take it. Others reported threats against their lives if they dared to talk to police, and said they\u2019d been made to sign false confessions to crimes such as conspiracy against the government. Jim always said he had an in with the police, said Deanna Mertle, 38, so we thought going to the police would be suicide. Church officials have issued statements countercharging that some of the dissenters were terrorists and child molesters. Throughout the controversy, Jones has remained in the\u2014 at the Guyana farm, which the church says it funds with $150,000 annually. And some suspect that the Reverend Mr. Jones may be the first<\/i> to take up permanent asylum in the Guyana haven.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Hmm. Well\u2014\u00a0(Pause) What are the pictures?<\/p>\n

Gelb:<\/b> The pictures are a picture of him and uh, another\u2014 a picture of the church, inside the church, some activity.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Gelb:<\/b> Now, well, how does it sound to you?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Well, (Unintelligible) from my perspective, it doesn\u2019t sound good, but uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Gelb:<\/b> Doesn\u2019t sound good<\/i>?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> No. Uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Gelb:<\/b> You mean, you don\u2019t think that\u2019s a fair piece of reporting?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Well, uh, there\u2019s just \u2014 you know, naturally, the uh, \u2014 I don\u2019t feel it\u2019s fair<\/i> because I don\u2019t think the things there were true that they were saying.<\/p>\n

Gelb:<\/b> Oh, well, I (talk over each other). We\u2019re not presenting them as true\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n

Gelb:<\/b> \u2014 we\u2019re just presenting that this is what people said<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah, right.<\/p>\n

Gelb:<\/b> You know, Newsweek<\/i> is not making any charges<\/i> against this church, I mean\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Gelb:<\/b> \u2014 and you know yourself<\/i> that I did call up<\/i> and say, if there was any way possible<\/i> to talk to the Reverend\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> No, no, that\u2019s true.<\/p>\n

Gelb:<\/b> I mean, uh, you know, I mean, it\u2019s not<\/i> like we\u2014 you didn\u2019t get your si\u2014 chance to present your side<\/i>, you know what I mean?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Gelb:<\/b> It\u2019s not like\u2014 I mean, it\u2019s not like we did this in an adversary or undercover-type way, uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah. No, I, I understand that. It\u2019s just that, you know, when uh, you do\u2014\u00a0I mean, ju\u2014 just the fact that there\u2019re so many people who\u2014 here, here\u2019s a program that, you know, had kept people from uh, being on the streets or being (unintelligible word), I mean, out of all our members, we haven\u2019t had any people in jail or committing violence, I mean, you just don\u2019t find<\/i> that anywhere, and here you have people that are being dignified who uh, are just telling these outrageous things that, that tend to discredit our work\u2014<\/p>\n

Gelb:<\/b> Well, I think we mention that also, it says, uh, “The church, uh, which has 20\u2014\u00a0has a drug rehabilitation program, free restaurant and medical clinic, legal aid service,” um, you know, I mean\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Gelb:<\/b> That\u2019s in there.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Gelb:<\/b> You know? Um. (Laughs). I mean that\u2019s, you know, that\u2019s a balanced story, and uh, um, of course<\/i>, I mean, naturally, uh, you know, any publicity that\u2019s not favorable is bad<\/i> publicity\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Gelb:<\/b> \u2014 but, um, these people, I mean, you know, they, I mean, they got their story to tell too, right?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Gelb:<\/b> I mean, that\u2019s, that\u2019s what they say.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Right. No, I was, uh\u2014 the only other thing I was going to add, is that uh, our feeling that, you know, se\u2014 see, we\u2019re being attacked because of our consistent support of the um, uh, Caribbean socialist community\u2014<\/p>\n

Gelb:<\/b> Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> \u2014 and you know, we\u2019ve felt that uh, these people have been brought together because\u2014 let me tell you, Mr. Gelb, this is the most unlikely<\/i> conglomeration of people, they would\u2019ve never<\/i> gotten together on their own.<\/p>\n

Gelb:<\/b> Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> (Laughs) We\u2014\u00a0I mean, they\u2019re just uh, very uh\u2014 but that\u2019s something that, that Jim said himself, about that uh, support of\u2014<\/p>\n

Gelb:<\/b> Yeah. Well, another thing is that, you know, uh, apparently<\/i> you have told uh, the people in your church uh, who are you know, still happy, you know, believers and followers and all, not<\/i> to talk. So, um\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> No, that\u2019s our attorney\u2019s advice.<\/p>\n

Gelb:<\/b> Right, I mean, but at this\u2014 well, it\u2019s (struggles for words)<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Well, see, you know the reason, though, don\u2019t you?<\/p>\n

Gelb:<\/b> What\u2019s the reason?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Well, that, that \u2014 naturally<\/i> if, you know, we\u2019re going to pursue litigation, that would uh, affect the case.<\/p>\n

Gelb:<\/b> Umm-hmm. Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> So, that\u2019s the reason behind that. But I, I do appreciate your reading to me very much, and I\u2014 You did what you could with it.<\/p>\n

Gelb:<\/b> Yeah, I mean, I\u2014 you know, uh, I think you should get a copy tomorrow, you know, so you can look at it, uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Right. Is it in the religion section?<\/p>\n

Gelb:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah. Okay, well, I do appreciate your taking the time to ah, read it to me.<\/p>\n

Gelb:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Thanks so much.<\/p>\n

Gelb:<\/b> You\u2019re welcome.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Take care.<\/p>\n

Gelb:<\/b> Bye bye.<\/p>\n

Segment 5:<\/strong> Phone call between Mike Prokes and unknown reporter in New York<\/em><\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> \u2014and we spoke before, uh, I don\u2019t know if you recall.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> I remember, yeah.<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Listen, Mr. Prokes, we have decided, uh, now that \u2014 not us, not we<\/i>, but uh, the people that \u2014uh, uh, in our magazine have decided to do a piece<\/i> on the Peoples Temple, and uh, one of the things we would be interested in um, doing<\/i> is uh, is uh, perhaps uh, getting some comment from, from Reverend Jones, uh, if that is possible.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Okay, well, I\u2019ll try.<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> I mean, in all fairness to have a balanced story, and uh, to have his point of view uh, uh, uh, um, you know<\/i>, represented\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> \u2014 uh, in, in the same amount of fairness as anyone else<\/i>, you know?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Right. Okay. Um. I, I know that he wants<\/i> to, he\u2019s uh, going through a lot of anxiety right now, because he hasn\u2019t\u2014 he wanted to call a press conference, and everyone has advised against us, against it, including our attorney\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> \u2014 wha\u2014 as we prepare our case, doing all of the investigation and getting affidavits together and so forth. But uh, you know, I, I will check into it, I just\u2014 I\u2014 you know, I imagine<\/i> that uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Why is he going through a lot of anxiety right now?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Well, because he ca\u2014 he can\u2019t\u2014 he can\u2019t be here to, you know, answer these charges.<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Umm-hmm. Well, I<\/i> don\u2019t think that um, really uh, in terms of what we\u2019re<\/i> writing, uh, is the kind of story where uh, we are making any charges against Mr. Jones himself<\/i>. Do you understand what I\u2019m saying? We are just writing the kind of story that uh, ah, sort of reflects<\/i> what is happening here and of\u2014 we\u2019ve had people who told us one<\/i> side of the story, and I think um, you know, just in journalistic fairness, you\u2019re a newsman yourself, I mean, ah, it\u2019s always good to check with the uh, (laughs) other side<\/i>, you know, and say, well, you know, look, we want to give you some\u2014 give you, you know, as much time as necessary or or uh, as much, you know\u2014 to explain your own<\/i> point of view.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Right. See, a lot of that\u2014 You have to understand the background of our people and, you know, they\u2019re\u2014 right now they\u2019re paranoid and upset about the media\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> They feel like they haven\u2019t gotten a fair shake because uh, you know, when\u2014\u00a0this all started with the magazine who interviewed him for two hours, and they didn\u2019t use any of it. And so, you know, he, you know, feels like he has to follow what his, his members want<\/i>, and uh, right now, in\u2014 you know, it\u2019s frustrating to me too, because I would like to answer, but I understand their uh, being upset and their paranoia<\/i>\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> \u2014 because uh, you know, it\u2019s just\u2014 it\u2019s just initiated<\/i>, the whole thing started with that, and the tactic seemed to be to throw out hundreds of outrageous charges, get us embroiled in a, a dialogue and uh, put us on a, in a defensive posture and dignify the charges, and uh, uh, of course, with, with his problem there<\/i>, he hasn\u2019t been able to uh, you know to uh\u2014 you know the tactic was to uh, just to keep the thing going\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> \u2014 indefinitely<\/i>, and it\u2019s a, a difficult thing to deal with, they just feel that uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Umm-hmm. Right.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> And of course, the attorney uh, would, wants to uh, (unintelligible) our case, not do anything premature.<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Umm-hmm. Well, you know, in terms of the news that\u2019s broken, I\u2019m sure you realize that a story is a story, they don\u2019t go away, and the media<\/i> doesn\u2019t go away, either. I mean, the media\u2019s always there, the stories uh\u2014 the stories maybe go away, and the thing is that um uh, we are just trying now to uh, I mean balance out our story more and and um, give, you know, uh, Reverend Jones his, like\u2014 his opportunity to say, well, you know, I\u2019m paranoid about the media but uh, you know, maybe he\u2019ll\u2014 I\u2019ll get a fair shake this time and um, uh, you know, and here\u2019s, here\u2019s my point of view uh. And uh, the people in New York uh, you know, said that we should give you another shot and, and try to uh, get this point of view and try to see what the reverend has to say about all of these things, you know?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> (Pause) Okay. Well, let me see, you know, I\u2019m, I can\u2019t do anything without consulting with the attorney, he\u2019s insisted that, you know, I not get into it without consulting with him.<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Sure.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> In fact, all of the media has been referred to him.<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> But uh, I will do that and uh\u2014 what sort of uh, uh, deadline are you on?<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> (Struggles for words) I\u2019d like to uh, as soon as possible<\/i>, you know?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah. Okay. Well. I\u2019ll pursue it, and uh, \u2014<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Well, can you call me back and let me know what the status is?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Right. Ah, I don\u2019t know if Mr. Garry is in town today and\u2014 I\u2019ll check.<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Well, if he\u2019s not<\/i> in town, can you call me back and let\u2014 still<\/i> let me know, anything that you\u2019ve found out\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> I will.<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> \u2014 so that I, I don\u2019t, you know, sort of sit around and uh, and wait.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> I mean, it, is that, is that okay?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Sure.<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> I\u2019m not trying to press you<\/i> or anything like that\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> No, I understand.<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> \u2014 but you know, if you find out that he\u2019s not in town<\/i> and, or something like that, just call me back and say, well, he\u2019s not in town right now\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> \u2014 and that\u2019s the way things are, okay?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Reporter:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Bye bye.<\/p>\n

End of Tape.<\/strong><\/p>\n

Tape originally posted January 1999<\/b><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you. To return to the Tape Index, click here. To read the Tape Summary, click here. To listen to MP3, click here. Side 1: Unintelligible. Sounds like a meeting of some sort, but background noise is overwhelming, […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":6,"featured_media":0,"parent":27291,"menu_order":440,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-27523","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27523","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/6"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=27523"}],"version-history":[{"count":9,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27523\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":60254,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27523\/revisions\/60254"}],"up":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27291"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=27523"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}