{"id":27527,"date":"2013-06-16T00:20:50","date_gmt":"2013-06-16T00:20:50","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/alternativejonestown.com\/?page_id=27527"},"modified":"2020-05-09T10:21:02","modified_gmt":"2020-05-09T17:21:02","slug":"q671","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=27527","title":{"rendered":"Q671 Transcript"},"content":{"rendered":"

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.<\/strong><\/i><\/p>\n

To return to the Tape Index, click here<\/a>. To listen to MP3, click here<\/a>.
\nTo read the Tape Summary, click here<\/a>.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> (reading, cuts in mid-sentence) ” \u2013 University of Manitoba, and Department of Psychiatry at McGill University. A healer held between his hands for two minutes (Pause) periods a day ten cages, each containing ten wounded mice in separate compartments. The cage was concealed in an open paper bag, into which the healer inserted his hands without looking at mice or cages. A second group of wounded mice were treated in the same way, except that different individual \u2013 a different individual held the cage each day. And a third group of wounded mice remained unhandled. Each group consisted of 100 mice in ten cages. The rate of healing was significantly greater on the group held by, uh, the healer, and there was no significant difference between the rates of healing in the latter two.” This came from volume four, number 3 of the International Journal of Parapsychology. Now, we could go on and on quoting eminent neurosurgeons. We’ve even had a doctor, J. Bruce Massey, I think you have uh, some statement, uh, Mr. [Mike] Prokes of his, confirming healings he has seen in Peoples Temple. Would you like to relate that?<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> Yes, and I might add, he is just one of many uh, people in the medical profession who has confirmed the healings that we have seen in our midst. He says, “I have known the above-named Pastor Jim Jones several months, and know him to be of good moral character, honest, sincere, and absolutely truthful in every respect. Pastor Jim Jones teaches Christianity, brotherly love, kindness, and willingness to help friends in need at all times. He teaches all of these things to his members and insist that they live this type of life, every minute of every day. One of his favorite expressions is, quote, We are our brother’s keeper, unquote. This idea coincides with his teachings completely. Further, I have attended many meetings of Pastor Jim Jones at Peoples Temple in Los Angeles, California, and many times have I seen him demonstrate his supernatural power. (Pause) I have also seen Pastor Jim Jones heal people who’ve \u2013 people who had been crippled with arthritis for many years. These people were made to walk with regained strength, with the power of Pastor Jim Jones. As a physician of many years of experience, I am convinced that these miraculous cures are genuine and permanent. Pastor Jim Jones is unique in his performance. He should be seen and heard by people of the entire world. He has the power to prove all his claims if he is given the chance to do so. This world will be a better place in which to live because of Pastor Jim Jones.”<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Thank you, Mike. Uh \u2013 Different ones of you here, uh, I think you came back, uh, you came into the church, didn’t you, uh, Eugene Chaikin, our attorney, from an atheistic background, as I recall. Um \u2013 Did you experience some personal healing in the Temple?<\/p>\n

Chaikin: <\/b> (Speaks slowly) That’s right, uh, uh, Pastor Jones, I was an atheist when I uh, came uh, to the church. I didn’t have any belief whatsoever in any sort of power of that kind, and uh, having always been a pragmatic person uh, I had to be shown, and shortly after I joined the church uh, I did \u2013 I was fortunate enough to receive a healing, I had uh, a great deal of painful arthritis uh, throughout my back, and uh, one day, in uh, your service uh, you uh, were conducting the Love Ministry at that time, and \u2013 and through your prayers uh, and through God, I was healed of that arthritic condition and have experienced no pain in my back since that time, though before that time I was uh, virtually crippled with it. And uh, this is one of the most wonderful things that’s happened to me during my lifetime. I’m sure that uh, any member of the audience that’s listening and can hear my voice can hear the sincerity of what I’m saying and, and how I feel about this, because even four years later \u2013 and I believe it was almost four years ago this took place \u2013 I, I’ve still no pain in my back, and uh, coming out of that era of discomfort has been a tremendous boon for me personally, and I, I’ve always been so appreciative of \u2013 of it, and of course, I now uh, no longer am an atheist as I was at that time, because it has been demonstrated to me that there is a higher power.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Uh, thank you, Eugene. Eugene is also uh, a member of the Jewish community and maintains his relationship within the Jewish culture. Uh, we in Peoples Temple, as you may have known in uh, the religious audience, listening audience, do not require that people change their religious faith to affiliate with Peoples Temple. Peoples Temple also, as you are quite familiar probably, has a Peoples Forum, a newspaper, a newsette that goes to 600,000 people in the Bay Area. And if you would be interested in receiving that, uh, particular newsette, feel free to write us. Uh \u2013 I’ll give you the box number later, and uh, if you would like to suggest discussion topics for us on the uh, Peoples \u2013 the voice of Peoples Temple, we’ll be very happy to have your suggestions, and we hope from time to time to invite guests who may even disagree with some of our points of view. We believe firmly in Isaiah, where he said uh, that we must come and reason together. This is the way our sins, our problems, our guilts, our difficulties are resolved by reasoning. At uh, this time, I might ask uh, Mr. [Richard] Tropp, who is a college instructor and a member of Peoples Temple, if he’s experienced a spiritual healing here in our ministry.<\/p>\n

Tropp: <\/b> Yes, Pastor Jones, I certainly have, and uh, I \u2013 I want to echo what uh, the attorney, uh, Mr. Chaikin, said just a few moments ago, that I had no preparation at all for this kind of experience from my background. I came from a humanistic Jewish background, with nothing at all about healing or spiritual healing was ever said. And many years before I came to Peoples Temple, I would \u2013 oh, I’d say every two weeks or so, I’d experience ex \u2013 intense pain in my stomach region, and at some points, it became so intense that I would actually wish \u2013 I would say, I would actually wish to die at certain points, it was that intense, uh \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> (unintelligible \u2013 sounds like “I see.”)<\/p>\n

Tropp: <\/b> I remember several ca \u2013 several times when this happened, and after I began attending Peoples Temple, this was some six months ago, I remember one service, it was maybe two or three weeks after I began attending there, another person through the p \u2013 prayer, that was healed, uh, miraculously to me, I had never seen anything like it, of a cancer. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Hold it, hold it. Back up. (Pause) No cancer.<\/p>\n

Several voices:<\/b> Back up.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> I \u2013 I’d just as soon cut it to something \u2013<\/p>\n

Laughter.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Several voices compete<\/p>\n

Tropp: <\/b> I’m feeling (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> You say six months \u2013 you said six months \u2013<\/p>\n

Unidentified<\/b> Male: <\/b> What was that that was long term subject \u2013 what was that that Mike said that I \u2013 remember, I went like \u2013<\/p>\n

Several voices compete.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> No, no, you said other doctors could confirm.<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b> Yeah, he said lots of other doctors \u2013<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> No, I said, people in the medical field.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Medical field. That’s all right.<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b> Did he?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b> Let’s go back \u2013<\/p>\n

Several voices compete.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> You said \u2013 you, you said six months, and it was six years ago. (Pause) So back up the whole thing.<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b> Has to be six year \u2013 it should be six years.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Yeah, yeah, yeah. It shouldn’t be six months, it should be \u2013<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b> Oh, no, no, no, I \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> You don’t want to go in \u2013 back up, back up, back up.<\/p>\n

Several voices compete.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Back up to where he s \u2013 uh, started.<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b> Okay. Oh, boy.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> You don’t want me to bring in the Christian Scientist background, do you?<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b> When were you in Christian Science?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> I n \u2013 I, I, I (unintelligible word) get these fuckers upset when you \u2013<\/p>\n

Several voices compete.<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b> You uh, will get the uh \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> I don’t think \u2013<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b> \u2013 Jews upset.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> I don’t think I’d come back with the Jewish even. I think I’d start all over again, and don’t say Jewish background.<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> I \u2013 I \u2013 We got one Jew, you uh, (stumbles over words) \u2013 religious background, didn’t believe in, in healing \u2013 or didn’t practice \u2013<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b> Traditional healing.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Another<\/b> Male: <\/b> The Jews will get upset, having a lot of Jewish business in, in Christian \u2013<\/p>\n

Chaikin: <\/b> (unintelligible phrase) Jews listen to KFAX.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> (Pause) There are those \u2013 there are those \u2013<\/p>\n

Chaikin: <\/b> Isn’t there that Schmidt, whatever that asshole is, that converted Jews?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Yeah. (Pause) Where are you \u2013 where are you there? (Pause)<\/p>\n

Engineer: <\/b> Okay, I’m ready.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Well, where is he? I know we’re ready what \u2013<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b> Where’s the \u2013 Where’s the tape at?<\/p>\n

Engineer: <\/b> All right, at \u2013 at \u2013 at Dick Tropp.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> How many minutes have we gone? Did you stop?<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> (Low voice) Yeah, something went wrong.<\/p>\n

Several voices lament.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> Did you \u2013 did you do it in there?<\/p>\n

Engineer: <\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> How long was it?<\/p>\n

Engineer: <\/b> Fifteen minutes.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> We haven’t been on fifteen minutes, son. We started at three \u2013 we \u2013 we start \u2013<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b> We started at uh, at three-thirty.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> Well, that \u2013 that clock was \u2013<\/p>\n

Several voices compete.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> We started at 3:30, son. We started at 3:30, um, uh, that I know, on this one. I started at 3:30, and uh, we been stopped here for five minutes.<\/p>\n

Another<\/b> Male: <\/b> I think that we need some place in this to talk about love and the regenerative effects of love. And I think that you’ll uh \u2013 I think it’ll uh, diffuse some of the other things that we’re doing.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> All right, he \u2013 all right. Uh, I’ll uh, get in some about people’s \u2013 the healings too. Okay, now, where’re you at, where’re you at, David?<\/p>\n

David: <\/b> Uh, the Dick Tropp part.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Where he begins?<\/p>\n

David: <\/b> Uh, yes, yes \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Uh, where I what, uh \u2013 what \u2013 (stumbles over words). You better let me hear \u2013<\/p>\n

David: <\/b> Back it up a little, Scott, before that.<\/p>\n

(Pause)<\/p>\n

Recording:<\/b> [Jones] \u2013 college instructor and a member of Peoples Temple, if he’s experienced a spiritual healing here in our ministry.<\/p>\n

Tropp: <\/b> Yes, Pastor Jones \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Uh \u2013 “ministry.” Get the “ministry.”<\/p>\n

David: <\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> (unintelligible) \u2013 “ministry.”<\/p>\n

Recording:<\/b> [Jones] \u2013 he’s experienced a spiritual healing here in our ministry.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Now shut your door, would you, (unintelligible name)<\/p>\n

David: <\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> \u2013 Going so slow. You’re slow. Yeah, it’s good to be slow, but that was ridiculous.<\/p>\n

Several voices low.<\/p>\n

David: <\/b> Say it (unintelligible) when we start.<\/p>\n

Several voices low.<\/p>\n

Engineer: <\/b> Ready.<\/p>\n

Tropp: <\/b> Yes, Pastor Jones, I certainly have. I (Pause) think it was about six years ago when I first began coming to uh, Peoples Temple, I came out of a traditional religious background, and for several years before that, I’d been experiencing severe periodic pains in my stomach region. I remember at times the pain would get so intense that I would actually wish to die. I’d wish that God would take away my \u2013 my misery. And I \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> (Voice too low)<\/p>\n

Tropp: <\/b> Yes. And I never ever ex \u2013 uh, expected that these uh, this condition would ever be relieved. But I remember several months after beginning to come to Peoples Temple that, one day in the service, uh, I witnessed a very beautiful spiritual healing, and I felt great gratitude at seeing this person \u2013 an older person, I believe \u2013 remember \u2013 uh, receive a healing, and I noticed a feeling in my stomach area that was like something was being released, something was just being loosened up. And from that date forward, I have never experienced any recurrence of what was a almost bi-weekly occurrence of intense pain, and I \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> I see \u2013<\/p>\n

Tropp: <\/b> \u2013 am grateful to God for that.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Uh, how long ago was that in my spiritual healing meeting \u2013 ministry. Uh, how many years back?<\/p>\n

Tropp: <\/b> Oh, this was about six years ago.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> I see. Uh, now uh, to my uh, left in our uh, radio room, we have, as I said, Mike Prokes, who is former CBS bureau chief, and he, I think, uh, served in Christian Science faith, and of course has great respect for the teaching that we received in that background. Uh, what uh \u2013 what type of healing did you receive, or did you receive a healing here in Peoples Temple?<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> I received a most incredible healing. One day, I \u2013 my ear began hurting, and I uh, didn’t pay much attention to it, until the pain got extremely intense, and finally unbearable. It was really the worst pain I had ever felt. And so, uh, I went to a doctor as uh, you, Pastor Jones, recommend and encourage we all do.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Yes, that’s true.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> In fact uh, that’s one thing about the ministry that impressed me so much, is that you see all your members get regular medical check-ups, and if they can’t afford it, that the church takes care of it.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> So I \u2013 I did go the doctor, and he gave me some antibiotics for it, and uh, told me to get a lot of rest. So I went home and uh \u2013 there was a, a service that weekend that I \u2013 I had to miss it, I was in a \u2013 so much pain, and nothing seemed to alleviate it. And uh, I was (Pause)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Close it, close it. You’re saying too many “and uh’s,” Mike, if you can avoid the “and uh’s,” it’s a \u2013 it’s the only fault you have. (Unintelligible word) Back up, back up to where he’s uh \u2013 ’cause I interrupted, he didn’t know what was going on. When I point to me, that means \u2013 to me, give me some \u2013 bring me into the picture. Ah, I \u2013 I kinda fucked you up back there, but you didn’t \u2013 you didn’t do badly, you went right into it. (Pause) What? You did \u2013 you were bringing me in the picture, I have no problem about that. Where’re \u2013 where’re we at? Let’s here it, Donny.<\/p>\n

Recording: <\/b>[Prokes] So I \u2013 I did go the doctor, and he gave me some antibiotics for it \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Stop. Stop.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> \u2013 and uh \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> \u2013 “for it.” \u2013 “for it.”<\/p>\n

Engineer: <\/b> He says, “antibiotics for it.” Right at that point.<\/p>\n

Donny:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Engineer: <\/b> Cue it to that \u2013 right after “it.”<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> \u2013 for it.<\/p>\n

Donny:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> And shut the door and \u2013 when I say “Ready,” we’ll go.<\/p>\n

Donny:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

(Pause of several seconds)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Ready.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> The doctor then told me to go home and get a lot of rest. And it happened to be uh, just on the weekend, and a meeting of Peoples Temple was taking place, a, a worship service. And I \u2013 I felt badly that I had to miss it, but I was in so much pain I just uh \u2013 I \u2013 I could hardly do anything. I just wanted to sleep, to escape the pain. And I was laying in bed, and the phone rang, and uh, I went \u2013<\/p>\n

(Papers rustling)<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> Uh, take it back, take it back, Ocause I \u2013 I want to \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Take it back to “and uh”, take it back. Take it back to “and uh”. He’s uh \u2013 just before “and uh”.<\/p>\n

Low voices. Several voices compete.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> “And uh \u2013 ” Find, “and uh”.<\/p>\n

Several voices compete.<\/p>\n

Recording:<\/b> [Prokes] \u2013 to sleep, to escape the pain. And I was laying in bed, and the phone rang, and uh, I went \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Stop with, “and the phone rang.” Stop.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> \u2013 and uh, I went \u2013<\/p>\n

Low voices.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> \u2013 doesn’t sound like me, you should know that I was healed \u2013<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> \u2013 And I was laying in bed \u2013<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> \u2013 introduce me as making it sound, you know, like you knew I was healed.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Why don’t \u2013 I don’t uh \u2013 I don’t pay any attention to this (voice overwhelmed by tape)<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> I could hardly do anything. I just wanted to sleep, to escape the pain. And I was laying in bed, and the phone rang.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> That’s it. Uh, that shows my intuition, to uh, bring something to \u2013 to be aware of it.<\/p>\n

Low voices.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Okay, shut the \u2013 shut the door. (Pause) We’ve got nothing of the paranormal (unintelligible phrase) (Pause) When I say “Ready,” you go. (Pause) You hear me?<\/p>\n

Engineer: <\/b> Yes.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Thanks, son. (Pause) Ready.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> I should mention at this point that the pain \u2013 no only did the ear \u2013 was \u2013 was I in unbearable pain, but I could not hear out of the uh, out of the ear. And I answered the phone and forgot that I couldn’t hear in the one ear and put the phone to the deaf ear. (Talks to self, too low)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Take it back.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> Take it back to the phone.<\/p>\n

Engineer: <\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> I don’t know how I can say hear and ear and \u2013<\/p>\n

Engineer: <\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> All right, what was on that phone? Me?<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Low voices.<\/p>\n

Recording:<\/b> [Prokes] \u2013 and forget that I \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Take it back where the phone rings.<\/p>\n

Engineer: <\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Recording: <\/b>[Prokes] in so much pain I just uh \u2013 I \u2013 I could hardly do anything. I just wanted to sleep, to escape the pain. And I was laying in bed, and the phone rang \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Good, son. Now, shut the door again, you know. Proceed. (Pause) And Jim told me, I’d say, and \u2013 and Jim knew, and I’ll say, I forgot that, I’d forgot that,I recall, I’d forgotten that until you \u2013 and you knew and told me what \u2013 what \u2013 what \u2013 where my pain was, where it had been, and it was gone. And I’ll say, I \u2013 I had forgotten that. I don’t retain \u2013 I’ll say something right that (stumbles for words) I don’t retain that sort of thing, really, because there are many phenomena like that that have occurred. (Calls out) Ready?<\/p>\n

Engineer: <\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> I should mention at this point that I couldn’t hear out of the ear that was giving me so much pain. Couldn’t hear a thing out of it, Ocause I tested it. But when I answered the phone, I forgot about the deafness and put the phone to that ear. And it was Pastor Jones. And he said, Mike, ho \u2013 how are you doing? How is your ear? And I answered him, I said uh \u2013 I thought for a second, because all of a sudden, the pain seemed to leave and I remembered that I before wasn’t able to hear out of that ear. And all of a sudden, I could hear him. And I was healed that \u2013 that immediately, it was that instantaneously.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> And that’s marvelous. I had forgotten it, but now that you bring it to my mind, it’s um \u2013 those \u2013 those \u2013 those phenomena are quite frequent, and I’d forgotten that particular incident. It \u2013 It is certainly amazing ah, what spiritual healing can achieve. I remember an Ambrose Worrell (phonetic spelling), uh, an aeronautical engineer, who used a \u2013 a healing gift with his wife Olga. He has now made the transition to the other plane. He said once in another case, a medical doctor brought his own daughter who was suffering from a bone disease for treatment. The disease had been verified by x-rays, and an operation had been declared imperative. In Mr. Worrell’s words, “I placed my left hand under her knee and my right hand on her kneecap. I felt the healing current strongly, and in a few minutes, I knew the bone was healed. I reported my findings to Dr. uh, G \u2013 who thought it would be wise to have further x-rays, because he did not want to delay the operation, if it were needed. The x-rays showed no further evidence of the disease, and two years later, the child was enjoying skiing and swimming in excellent health.” We uh, don’t see too many \u2013 who have this healing gift that we can give uh, some scientific documentation for. The Worrells are, are Methodists. I believe, um, the healing gift of her husband was um, manifest in the uh, ministry of the New Life Clinic of the Mount Washington Methodist Church in Baltimore, and of course we’ve seen healing in the Catholic Shrine \u2013 the Shrine of Our Lord in, in uh, France. We \u2013 we certainly see that there is no particular franchise on this, it doesn’t have anything to do with the goodness of the minister of healing, it has nothing to do with character, it does indeed perhaps relate to one’s faith, and prayer is an essential factor to those who \u2013 as we \u2013 are Christians and come from the Judeo-Christian background. Well, we’ve covered the subject of healing today. We might go on to some other subject. I would like to say to you that are out in the radio audience uh, again, if you would like to have uh, more information about Peoples Temple and its vast ministry, we’re multi-faceted in our ministry, we have a free legal service program, we have geriatric facilities, children’s home for retardeds, an animal shelter, uh, various facilities of that sort, we have our own uh, examination room where we do preventative medicine under the auspices of a medical doctor, and we have a physical therapist and some wonderful equipment, uh, ultrasound I think, and um, diathermic which we give uh, treatment to those who have arthri \u2013 arthriti \u2013 uh \u2013 Stop it.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> Uh, I didn’t mention that uh, I have never told you that I had an ear problem up to that point. We should have got to that.<\/p>\n

Low voices.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> I don’t know, I don’t know. I don’t know.<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b> Well, I think that \u2013<\/p>\n

Voices compete with recording.<\/p>\n

Recording:<\/b> [Jones] \u2013 treatment to those who have arthri \u2013 arthriti \u2013 uh \u2013 Stop \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Go back.<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b> Go back uh, somewhat.<\/p>\n

Recording:<\/b> [Jones] \u2013 wonderful equipment, uh, ultrasound I think, and um, diathermic which we \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Ultrasound? Is it ultrasound.<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b> I wonder if you shouldn’t specify that we provide members with the treatment. I \u2013 I wonder if we wouldn’t otherwise just get a bunch of people flooding inhere who say, you know, I’m not going to go \u2013<\/p>\n

Several voices compete.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Yes, yes.<\/p>\n

Second<\/b> Male: <\/b> Back it up a little bit. A little bit more.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> Well, we have so many members, we can hardly deal with uh, outsiders.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Umm-hmm. Yes.<\/p>\n

Second Male: <\/b> More. Okay, okay, now play it \u2013 play it (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Engineer: <\/b> Play it.<\/p>\n

Second<\/b> Male: <\/b> Where you already stopped, you could stop \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Yes, yes.<\/p>\n

Second<\/b> Male: <\/b> Good ahead.<\/p>\n

Recording:<\/b> [Jones] arthriti \u2013 uh \u2013 Stop \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Go back further.<\/p>\n

Recording: <\/b>[Jones] \u2013 we give uh, treatment to those who have arthri \u2013 arthriti \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> You gotta go back, son, you gotta go back, son.<\/p>\n

Second Male: <\/b> (Unintelligible) Okay, stop.<\/p>\n

Recording:<\/b> [Jones] \u2013 subject of healing today. We might go on to some other subject. I would like to say to you that are out in the radio audience uh, again, if you would like to have uh, more information about Peoples Temple and its vast ministry, we’re multi-faceted in our ministry, we have a free legal service program, we have geriatric facilities, children’s home for retardeds, an animal shelter, uh, various facilities of that sort, we have our own uh, examination room where we do preventative medicine under the auspices of a medical doctor, and we have a physical therapist and some wonderful treatment \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Physical therapist. Physical therapist. Physical therapist.<\/p>\n

Second<\/b> Male: <\/b> Yeah. Take it back to where he says “physical therapist.” It’s about another few feet. Just take it back to where, uh \u2013<\/p>\n

Recording:<\/b> [Jones] \u2013 under the auspices of a medical \u2013<\/p>\n

Second<\/b> Male: <\/b> No, you had it. Tha \u2013 That’s what \u2013<\/p>\n

Recording:<\/b> [Jones] \u2013 an animal shelter (Pause) \u2013 under the auspices of a medical doctor, and we have a physical therapist \u2013<\/p>\n

Second<\/b> Male: <\/b> Did you get the last part of the word “therapist” on there?<\/p>\n

Engineer: <\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Second<\/b> Male: <\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> All right, we shall \u2013 When I say “Ready,” we’ll go ahead. (Pause) Ready?<\/p>\n

Engineer: <\/b> Check.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> We have RN’s and nurse practitioners, as I said, who work under the auspices of a good medical doctor friend. We have in our \u2013 our medical facilities a diathermy and ultrasonic \u2013 ultrasound that is used on members of our congregation who had very bad cases of arthritis, and we see considerable improvement. These, uh, services are rendered to our membership free. We also, as we have mentioned, offer the Peoples Forum, a \u2013 a newsletter that goes to 600,000 people in the Bay Area. If you’re interested in getting more information about our programs \u2013 Peoples Temple and the Peoples Forum paper \u2013 write to Post Office Box 15023, San Francisco, 94115. We’d like to encourage you to support various voluntary organizations in the community. If you care to support Peoples Temple ministry, we would be happy. We are affiliated with the Disciples of Christ, a denomination of one point four million, we include, oh, Senators, uh, former president’s family, Lyndon Baines Johnson family, and the FBI director, Mr. [Clarence] Kelley, but we would also like to mention some other worthy programs in our area. St. Anthony’s Dining Room at 121 Golden Gate, San Francisco. They do such a worthy program, a Catholic organization that serves the needs of people in giving hot meals to people without cost. Salvation Army does of course a great ministry, at 60 Haight Street in San Francisco. The Jewish Welfare Services \u2013<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Part 2<\/b> \u2013 Single line by Jim Jones<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> This is your friend \u2013<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Part 3 <\/b> \u2013 Phone conversation between Jones and Chris<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Who is fucking over you, Chris? Are you going to let \u2013 uh, we got enough common enemies without letting paranoia run ragged through your brain.<\/p>\n

Chris: <\/b> I told you \u2013 okay, I’m a \u2013 I’m a \u2013 I’m \u2013 okay, I explained it to \u2013 to \u2013 to my lawyer, you understand, that you can’t \u2013 yeah, I told everybody I was going to go for myself, okay. I got everythin’ set up. Them people want to kick me outta the high school if I don’t have no ID. I ain’t got no ID \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Well, we got \u2013 we got that taken care of, man, we’ve rented a car clear up to the valley to get you a passport. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Jones and Chris talk over each other.<\/p>\n

Chris: <\/b> Why you gone lie to me and tell me you gone \u2013 (Stumbles over words) You know, I’m layin’ \u2013 I’m layin’ up here with pins all in my leg and \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones and Chris talk over each other.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> What did he lie to you?<\/p>\n

Chris: <\/b> He told me, he said when I get back, that you had your stuff, you had your stuff Friday. I \u2013 you know \u2013 you’ll \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones and Chris talk over each other.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Ah, I don’t \u2013<\/p>\n

Chris: <\/b> He ain’t called \u2013 he ain’t told me nothing. You ain’t nothing but a (unintelligible word). I gave him my number, I said, well call me and let me know what’s happenin’.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Listen, friend. Listen, friend. Uh \u2013 you \u2013 we are under attack over here, to the point that you wouldn’t even know \u2013 You will probably read about it in the newspaper. (Pause) You \u2013 he don’t know whi \u2013 which end’s up, but it’s not any design that he’s neglecting you. You’ve got a problem, and we understand that, if you got a problem of your own physical nature, but we got a problem of the survival of all of us. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Chris: <\/b> Well, I can’t cross you. So okay, whatever you say, is, is cool. But see, I don’t \u2013 okay, you right. Okay, I \u2013 Okay, that’s cool. That’s cool. But you know that \u2013 okay. Fuck it. I ain’t gone \u2013 I can’t cross \u2013 I \u2013 You the onliest person I can’t cross. I ain’t gone cross you.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> I’d think so. I never crossed you.<\/p>\n

Chris: <\/b> Okay, so \u2013 Okay, well, I’m sorry then, all right? But I don’t even \u2013 I don’t you know, I don’t like that old dude \u2013 yeah, I don’t like \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Yeah, but a \u2013 but you got realize, man, I’m pullin’ that dude four ways to Sunday, and that dude can only bend so much. (Pause) He only got so much uh, ability. And I can’t go drawing on no city lawyers. They don’t \u2013 They’re all capitalists. They’re not any place to be found.<\/p>\n

Chris: <\/b> Excuse me. I was gonna \u2013 I was gonna get out of here, man, but that’s all right. Okay. Everythin’s \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> (Incredulous) Gone get out of there?<\/p>\n

Chris: <\/b> Huh?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> You stay there and get well.<\/p>\n

Chris: <\/b> All right. This is my doctor. I was going to get the pins pulled out of my leg, Ocause I thought \u2013 I don’t like him messin’ me around \u2013 It’s all right, doc, okay?<\/p>\n

Doc: <\/b> (Overheard at Chris’ end) All right, well, try not to \u2013 The nurse is getting really upset \u2013<\/p>\n

Chris: <\/b> Well, I was upset too, okay? But it’s cool now, all right?<\/p>\n

Doc: <\/b> (Unintelligible) \u2013 cool now.<\/p>\n

Chris: <\/b> Well, don’t worry about it. But it’s cool, all right?<\/p>\n

Doc: <\/b> (Unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> OS he all right?<\/p>\n

Chris: <\/b> Huh?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Is the doctor all right?<\/p>\n

Chris: <\/b> Yeah. Well, I told him \u2013 I was going have him pull my pins out my leg, and I was gonna come \u2013 Ocause I don’t want that \u2013 Donald Cee (phonetic special) think he slick. But I didn’t know, I \u2013 I mean, I thought he thought he was playing me for some (unintelligible word) a fool or something, you know.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Yeah. No, Chaikin ain’t trying to pull you for no fool. He ain’t trying to pull you for no fool. He’s being pulled and pressured \u2013 I just stepped off from a reporter and happened to walk down this aisle. Ha \u2013 Ha \u2013 Harris didn’t even call for me. And I heard this voice, and I walked in this uh, this room.<\/p>\n

Chris: <\/b> I’m sorry, I’m sorry.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> So, uh \u2013<\/p>\n

Chris: <\/b> I’m going to let you go, I \u2013 Ocause I know how you f \u2013 I’m sorry, all right? Okay.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Well, if you can just keep cool, this is \u2013 the man don’t need to destroy us other than with paranoia. But Chaikin ain’t tried noth \u2013 he ain’t tried to crap over you. He’s not doing anything \u2013 don’t do no stupid thing that’ll affect your health, Ocause we don’t want to \u2013 we don’t want to take any chances to get our body in a bummed-up mess.<\/p>\n

Chris: <\/b> All right, I’m sorry. I’m gone let you go, Ocause I don’t want there to be no \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> No, no problem, no problem.<\/p>\n

Chris: <\/b> I’m sorry. Okay?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> It’s just easy to get caught up in a \u2013 a paranoid world when you’re laying a hospital bed. But don’t do anything uh \u2013 do anything but get well. There ain’t nobody gonna (Pause) bother you (Sighs), they don’t seem to be digging at us on your score right now, they’re on to us about damn communist or something.<\/p>\n

Chris: <\/b> Okay, well, I don’t even want to any more keep you talking, Ocause I know what you got to go \u2013 but I’m \u2013 please believe me, I’m sorry, Jim, I’m \u2013 you know, to put you in this shit. But I was just \u2013 I \u2013 I was really pissed off and mad, Ocause I \u2013 you \u2013 you know, I didn’t know that he was under what he was, but at least he could’ve given me a call, I thought, to let me know something \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Well, he’s \u2013<\/p>\n

Chris: <\/b> Then when he called me, he gone tell me \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> We were up \u2013 we were up all \u2013 we were up all night last night, and he’s been up so many nights. So he don’t know, he don’t know which end’s up. He really don’t. And I’m not \u2013 uh, I wouldn’t bullshit you \u2013 I’ve never bullshitted you in my life.<\/p>\n

Chris: <\/b> I know that.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Uh \u2013 He don’t know what you \u2013 he don’t know what’s going on.<\/p>\n

Chris: <\/b> I’m sorry.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> But, uh, anything he hasn’t done, it’s not been with intention, it’s just because he’s simply \u2013 he’s got too much coming at him. We’ve got to get four different corp \u2013 I \u2013 I can’t go into it.<\/p>\n

Chris: <\/b> All right, well, don’t \u2013 let’s not say no more, Ocause I \u2013 I know how you got to suffer with your \u2013 with your things \u2013 you know \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Well, I’ve got him on so many damn missions, he \u2013 he don’t know which way he’s going. He’s got uh \u2013 (stumbles over words) he got to go to Los Angeles, on a long trip there, very shortly.<\/p>\n

Chris: <\/b> You ain’t got to say nothing. Look, I’m sorry. I’m sorry to even have you in this. And I’m sorry.
\nChris and Jones talk over each other.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> And that \u2013 they \u2013 they will have that passport, and they’re going to bring the damn thing in, and uh, s \u2013 verify that you \u2013 they ain’t gone put you on no street. And we can hasten it up if they’ll take it tonight, or if it’ll \u2013 but I was told it could wait till tomorrow morning.<\/p>\n

Chris: <\/b> Yeah, well \u2013 he told me he ain’t gone be able to get it till Tuesday, and the social worker wanted it \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Okay, watch out. Ain’t gone be \u2013 who \u2013 who isn’t going to be able to get to what?<\/p>\n

Chris: <\/b> He told me he couldn’t get it till Tuesday or Wednesday \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Well, he probably thought he couldn’t, but when I heard about it, uh \u2013 (stumbles over words) I think uh, Johnny \u2013 didn’t John reassure you that it would be available on Monday?<\/p>\n

Chris: <\/b> They can’t \u2013 You know I don’t trust \u2013 You know John \u2013 But I \u2013 All I’m saying, I \u2013 whatever you say is cool, and I don’t even want to keep your voice up. It was good to hear your voice, and I’m sorry to have to hear it under these circumstances.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> No, the \u2013 the \u2013 the, uh \u2013 the \u2013 the passport will be there with the business opus \u2013 opening tomorrow.<\/p>\n

Chris: <\/b> Thank you, Father.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> They \u2013 they’ve already been given the instructions, and it \u2013 it’ll be taken care of, so you \u2013 you keep cool and don’t \u2013 and that \u2013 what I \u2013 pick up the phone every time I heard about Dana, what was you up \u2013 were you telling him to do about Dana? You talk \u2013 I thought you were talking to him, but I \u2013 I took the phone from him, I just asked to give me the phone, you were saying something about do something with Dana. What do you want done with Dana?<\/p>\n

Chris: <\/b> Well, I was goin’ to send her home to my momma, but okay, I \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> God \u2013 God, don’t do that.<\/p>\n

Chris: <\/b> (Chastened) Okay.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Your sister’s talking about moving up here, which uh, I wanted to ask you about, what the hell \u2013<\/p>\n

Chris: <\/b> Well, she came up here to (unintelligible word) this morning, move up here \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Uh-huh \u2013<\/p>\n

Chris: <\/b> And uh, that’d be good, and \u2013 you know, I was just mad \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> I don’t think that would be good.<\/p>\n

Chris: <\/b> I was just mad, because I said I been gettin’ fucked over by him, you know \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> No, he didn’t \u2013 he \u2013 he likes you, man, but he \u2013 he is uh, just \u2013 you put too much on uh, Chaikin’s brain, and he uh, his \u2013 his charges just don’t \u2013 (Pause) Uh, he \u2013 he overcharges, that’s what I’m trying to say. He got the \u2013 he hadn’t got enough spark plugs to take \u2013 take what I’m putting at him. Nobody has. It isn’t no discredit to him.<\/p>\n

Chris: <\/b> That’s right.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> I run \u2013 I run these attorneys ragged right now. But I \u2013 they’re runnin’ me ragged. The \u2013 the system’s out to do us in, they’re out for the jugular vein. And we’re in the hell of a \u2013 we’re in a hell of a rat race with these people. I think we’ll come out some way, but I \u2013 I \u2013 not \u2013 not if we stay around here too long. I think we’ll maybe come out without it being too bad this time, but it \u2013 it’s still not \u2013 it’s not good.<\/p>\n

Chris: <\/b> All right. I’m sorry, Dad, now, can let me let you go ahead on, okay?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Chris: <\/b> Everything is cool.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> I just want you to relax and \u2013<\/p>\n

Tape cuts off.<\/p>\n

End of side one.<\/strong><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Side 2:<\/b><\/p>\n

Part 4:<\/b> Beginning of radio broadcast<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> \u2013 Peoples Temple at 1859 Geary in San Francisco, and uh, I have with me today some of the members of our staff, and \u2013<\/p>\n

Part 5:<\/b> Conversation before broadcast<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> \u2013 We’ll be on vibration and start \u2013 we ought to make a note of that. And hell, that oughta be \u2013 that oughta be pretty uh, newsworthy. Goddamn, they ought to put that in the newsletter. Vibrations \u2013<\/p>\n

Chaikin: <\/b> (Unintelligible name) is on that, Jim.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> It’ll show Saturday, and (unintelligible word) in Sunday, too.<\/p>\n

Chaikin: <\/b> What \u2013 Today is what? Thursday?<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> We \u2013 week from Saturday.<\/p>\n

Chaikin: <\/b> A week from Saturday.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> (unintelligible word) can we find out what the hell we’re going to do that (unintelligible word) get that in the paper. That’s gotta be done, first thing in the fuckin’ morning, uh, does anyone know, Ocause it’s Sunday \u2013 it’s Sunday night, or it’s Saturday. And we’ve got to have that.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> Oh, bring a TV Guide.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> TV Guide? We’ll get it, and let’s be sure we have it on the radio program, insert it in this radio broadcast, and insert it in the next \u2013 ’cause it’ll give Oem warning, and it’ll give time for the afternoon. I think as much as \u2013 Then we put them in the good kind of stuff \u2013 we put it, the good kind of stuff. We \u2013 we put the \u2013 the head on that goodtime stuff. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> Do I \u2013 Do I mention [San Francisco Methodist minister] Cecil Williams or just \u2013 or just say vibrations?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Vibrations, uh, (struggles for words) to the narrator or the commentator (unintelligible word), who’s \u2013<\/p>\n

Chaikin: <\/b> (unintelligible word)<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> Host.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Host is Reverend Williams.<\/p>\n

Part 6:<\/b> Meeting between two women with kids around them.<\/p>\n

Most is recorded at different speeds, and is unintelligible<\/p>\n

Part 7:<\/b> Two people discuss hotel arrangements in telephone conversation<\/p>\n

Liz: <\/b> \u2013 don’t want to go back to Tudoes uh, Dusabe High School \u2013 no, I mean, Dunbar. Because there was trouble there and \u2013 oh \u2013 and at the other school, where we were before, two \u2013 I don’t think they’re \u2013 I don’t think they’ll want to go back there.<\/p>\n

Hennington: <\/b> Well, I \u2013 I tell you what, (unintelligible sentence), you know, uh, you know, do what you think is best.<\/p>\n

Liz: <\/b> All right.<\/p>\n

Hennington: <\/b> Okay. Because, uh-huh, you know, I mean, I think, you know, I think you’ll find \u2013 you’ll find something, you know, that, that’s really uh, you know (tape distortion for one word) you know, appropriate.<\/p>\n

Liz: <\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Hennington: <\/b> So. So, uh \u2013 And, and I know you’re willing to do the best you can.<\/p>\n

Liz: <\/b> Yes, I’m willing, Ocause I, uh \u2013 but the Hilton Hotel, uh, oh, I think it seated 500, but still, there wasn’t enough room, and I \u2013 I don’t \u2013 I tell you what, I’ll contact the Hilton and see what it’ll be and everything.<\/p>\n

Hennington: <\/b> Okay, that \u2013<\/p>\n

Liz: <\/b> That’s what I’ll do. But you wanted \u2013 See, that was in the Loop. But you want it closer.<\/p>\n

Hennington: <\/b> Um, I don’t \u2013 I don’t have any idea, I don’t know that the \u2013 um, any up \u2013 anything of the vicinity, you know, of that area.<\/p>\n

Liz: <\/b> Uh-huh. Oh, well, I’ll do the best I can.<\/p>\n

Hennington: <\/b> Okay, then.<\/p>\n

Liz: <\/b> I’ll do the best I can.<\/p>\n

Hennington: <\/b> Okay, thank you.<\/p>\n

Liz: <\/b> Ah-hah.<\/p>\n

Hennington: <\/b> How’s Robert doing?<\/p>\n

Liz: <\/b> Oh, he’s doing pretty good now.<\/p>\n

Hennington: <\/b> That’s good, that’s good. Good to hear it.<\/p>\n

Liz: <\/b> Ah-hah.<\/p>\n

Hennington: <\/b> And now, then (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Liz: <\/b> Now who am I talking to?<\/p>\n

Hennington: <\/b> This is Glenn.<\/p>\n

Liz: <\/b> Wes?<\/p>\n

Hennington: <\/b> Yeah, Glenn Hennington.<\/p>\n

Liz: <\/b> Spell it for me.<\/p>\n

Hennington: <\/b> (Laughs) Okay. My first name is G-l-e-n-n.<\/p>\n

Liz: <\/b> G-l-e, uh-huh, Glenn.<\/p>\n

Hennington: <\/b> And then the last name’s spelled H-e-n-n-i-n-g-t-o-n.<\/p>\n

Liz: <\/b> Oh, uh-huh. All right, then.<\/p>\n

Hennington: <\/b> Okay?<\/p>\n

Liz: <\/b> And I do \u2013 and I leave that for the call Monday.<\/p>\n

Hennington: <\/b> Yeah, Monday (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Liz: <\/b> Ah-hah.<\/p>\n

Hennington: <\/b> Okay, well thank you very much, Liz.<\/p>\n

Liz: <\/b> Ah, you’re welcome.<\/p>\n

Hennington: <\/b> We surely appreciate it.<\/p>\n

Liz: <\/b> Ah-hah, you’re welcome.<\/p>\n

Hennington: <\/b> Okay, you take care now.<\/p>\n

Liz: <\/b> You the same.<\/p>\n

Hennington: <\/b> Tell Robert the same.<\/p>\n

Liz: <\/b> I sure will.<\/p>\n

Hennington: <\/b> Okay, bye now.<\/p>\n

Liz: <\/b> Bye.<\/p>\n

Part 8:<\/b> Sound of long-distance calls being made, no one answers<\/p>\n

Operator: <\/b><\/b> Directory Assistance.<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b> Uh, yes, uh, could you give me the phone number of WVON Radio in Chiacgo, please?<\/p>\n

Operator: <\/b> WVON?<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b> Mmm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Operator: <\/b> Pardon me?<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b> Yes, correct.<\/p>\n

Operator: <\/b> Thank you.<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b> Thank you.<\/p>\n

Operator: <\/b> Okay. (Pause) 847-2600.<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b> Thank you very much.<\/p>\n

Operator: <\/b> You’re welcome<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b> Bye, now.<\/p>\n

Part 9: <\/b>Radio program<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> \u2013 I can’t tell you, personally, I \u2013 I haven’t reflected much about it. We just spontaneously decided to discuss it.<\/p>\n

Tropp: <\/b> Not really, except that on the last point, that uh, that the attorney made, Gene Chaikin, I \u2013 I do think that in a technological society, we have to really counteract the danger of this kind of callousness that this kind of thinking about life and death with a \u2013 a very strongly uh, spiritual uh, uh, meditative reflectiveness about, about uh, life and about these questions. I think we’ve seen in this bloody twentieth century how the humanistic factor becomes subordinated, when there is so much uh, emphasis placed upon uh, technology, upon machines, upon the wonderness of science, which sometimes can be a curse. So I think that it’s important for us as individuals to reflect very, very strongly on this \u2013 search our souls.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> I wholeheartedly concur. Indeed there’s uh, said to be a great apathy in American life today on many issues, and uh, with apathy present, it’s easy for us to drift into \u2013 as attorney Chaikin said \u2013 uh, a genocide situation. After all, [Adolf] Hitler\u2019s Germany uh, came upon them very suddenly, uh \u2013 the Weimar republic was a very democratic government, and within a few short months, we came to a philosophy that it was all right to exterminate one’s enemies, and then even the ethnic group, merely because of their religious culture or their ethnic background. It’s frightening, and I personally will stick with my Judeo-Christian tradition \u2013 “Thou shalt not kill” \u2013 until I’m decidedly convinced otherwise. I uh, have great sympathies with the Right-To-Life movement. I also have certainly undoubted sympathy for the mother who has a child that she doesn’t want, and there’s nothing more cruel than children being brought into a world where they’re not wanted. That’s a death uh, in itself too. So we’ve got to do something about prevention. Uh, uh, I \u2013 I’m not recommending that mothers uh, be im \u2013 have it imposed upon them um, by law that they must bear a child. We would like to create a moral atmosphere, certainly, and uh \u2013 a moral rejuvenation, but we don’t want to be uh, Pollyannish about it. Uh, I don’t know that we’re going to reverse all the permissiveness in our society, and uh, this question of the right to life is a very serious one, and I thought at least a few minutes today, could be uh \u2013 for the general good of the community, if we would discuss it, and we welcome you in the radio audience, as we said, to give us ideas on things that we might discuss. I’m rather interested too, uh, brothers, uh, your \u2013 your opinion about the Patricia Hearst situation. It seemed to me that a number of people took a great deal of satisfaction in uh, seeing this young woman convicted. Uh \u2013 The whole concept of brainwashing uh, seems to be, not based on her being rich or poor \u2013 I don’t think that has anything to do with it \u2013 but it seemed to me that we uh, need to look at this question of empathy for a person who’s brainwashed, and then the dangerous precedent that anyone’s child or daughter or their son might be kidnapped and put through the same kind of thing, and uh \u2013 we seem to encourage terrorist groups to practice that type of thing, I mean, such a decision. Or some might say that that \u2013 the decision of Patricia Hearst case, where she faces some \u2013 I’ve heard some speculation that maybe six or seven years, uh, minimally, that she’s going to face, uh \u2013 here we had a case where she was (struggles for words) most people’s point of view, at least she was in a closet, there seems to be good authority that she’s kept in a closet for weeks at a time. She was only allowed to read certain type of uh, news, which it ah, appeared that perhaps the FBI was her enemy, uh \u2013 I could see how she could easily be brainwashed by hearing only one side of it \u2013 uh, one point of view. At least we recognize brainwashing in the Korean War, and we said it is a real uh, process that can take place. What’s your feeling on this \u2013 this subject? (Pause) Yes, attorney Chaikin.<\/p>\n

Chaikin: <\/b> I’ve uh, read the newspaper accounts of the case with a feeling of uh, a great deal of concern with uh, Patty’s situation, uh, regardless of uh, what her actual motivations were. It’s often impossible to know. And yet recently I read an article by a psychologist in which he took the position that there are very few people who are not capable of being subject to uh, brainwashing or to have their motivations and their activities very strongly influenced under the kinds of circumstances that she did experience. And that’s one side of the picture. However, she was engaged in activity uh \u2013 I think without any question at all, she was engaged in activity that, from the standpoint of this society \u2013 is just unacceptable, by anybody’s standards, and so that seemingly, the society has to have some tool or some limitation than can be used for preventing people from doing things like holding banks up with submachine guns, um \u2013 or uh, shooting out the fronts of uh, of uh, sporting goods stores. Uh, and I think this is one issue that the case brings to the forefront that we need to discuss and we need to deal with. It really has to do with the extent of a person’s responsibility for his own actions.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Well, that’s uh, certainly something that you would see as an attorney, a different perspective as I \u2013 that I see as a theologian, um. I have a great deal of empathy there. I think, but for the grace of God, could go any one of our children. We have seen a lot of precedents, or at least um \u2013 the \u2013 the news says that uh, it’s possible for \u2013 I saw a religious group not uh, too long ago that they said, that brainwashing takes place, and deprogramming is done. Now, if indeed brainwashing is \u2013 ah, is a fact, then it seems to me that there should’ve been some consideration for it in \u2013 with Miss Hearst. I realize, as you say, we have to decide at what point a person assumes responsibility, and we can’t allow lawlessness, but I \u2013 I thought I sensed \u2013 I hope it wasn’t so in the jury \u2013 but I sensed in the response of the crowd, that maybe they were reacting to who Miss Hearst was. If \u2013 if she had been the daughter of Mr. Average American, would there’ve as much desire to see her convicted? And of course there are others who say that uh, maybe it would’ve been worse, but I \u2013 my own feeling, having uh \u2013 the fact that I pastor a congregation here of over 8000 \u2013 um, I’ve seen a great deal of empathy. But you meet others that come to our various services here, our free examination and \u2013 and medical facilities and uh, our legal services and all the programs that we have here for people, and it seems to me that I \u2013 I s \u2013 I sensed a, a feeling \u2013 I don’t want to generalize \u2013 but a feeling of glee over her uh, uh, being found guilty. Mr. Tropp?<\/p>\n

Tropp: <\/b> Yes, uh, Pastor Jones, I wanted to comment a little bit about that. I discussed this case, uh, somewhat with my students, and uh, they felt \u2013 you know, I felt it was (clears throat) an interesting opinion that they had, that they felt that Patty should be put in jail, but I think their feelings were motivated, they said, because they were annoyed at seeing this case exposed so much in the media. They were tired of it.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> I see.<\/p>\n

Tropp: <\/b> They were annoyed by her. The media had overplayed it. They had used the Patty Hearst case and bandied it around and \u2013 and kind of made it into a circus. And I think that the effect of that after a while gets a person to maybe have a psychological reaction, that they just are annoyed with it. Let’s push it out of the way and \u2013 almost, I think, she was not just a victim of brainwashing \u2013 and I think she was \u2013 I think she \u2013 perhaps she was a victim of the extreme amount of publicity that was put upon her. She was rerun and rerun in the newspapers for two and a half years, and I think that could have a toll of people reading the newspapers and not \u2013 and not feel well (Pause) you know, they get tired of it.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> It’s interesting to have the perspective of a college instructor \u2013 (Pause) Cut it. It’s what time \u2013 How long we been on? (Pause) Go back and erase uh \u2013 I don’t have any goddamn idea how long we been on.<\/p>\n

Tropp: <\/b> Oof.<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b> For 23 minutes.<\/p>\n

Another<\/b> Male: <\/b> Uh-huh.<\/p>\n

Tropp: <\/b> Twenty-five to \u2013 to the hour \u2013<\/p>\n

Several voices compete<\/p>\n

Tropp: <\/b> It’s 25 to the hour, so we probably have \u2013<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b> That long \u2013<\/p>\n

Tropp: <\/b> \u2013 45 minutes.<\/p>\n

Another Male: <\/b> 45 minutes.<\/p>\n

Several voices compete<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> I think we’re doing pretty well with the thing. You handled it \u2013 you got us out \u2013 you got me out of the woods here, I \u2013 we don’t sound like we’re all of one opinion, and I think that’s good, uh, and yet you’re showing proper respect for me. You want \u2013 you want to do that, and we disagree, and I don’t think we’re (unintelligible word). What uh \u2013 what the hell uh \u2013 be ca \u2013 can you look on that thing, do you know by numbers on that thing how long \u2013 how \u2013<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b> Yeah. Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> How long? How \u2013 What time? Can you us what time it is? How many \u2013 much time?<\/p>\n

Several voices compete<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> I want to say \u2013 I want to say one thing to you about jails. I want to say, but as far as jail, I would like to say \u2013 I don’t think jail is an answer for anyone. Um \u2013 a judge has been assigned \u2013 what was this thing I wanted before I did it, but I couldn’t remember it \u2013 There’s a judge that’s been giving people in Florida all kinds of things to do, uh \u2013<\/p>\n

Male voice:<\/b> (Unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Oh, he \u2013 oh, he gets Oem uh, responsibilities uh, tasks to perform in the community, they gotta go in and work in certain places in the community, and uh, they do this in lieu of jail or \u2013<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b> Today, I read in the paper, there was an attorney that was convicted of, in effect, illegally soliciting clientele \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Um-hmm \u2013<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b> And what the judge told him he had to do, if I recall, besides paying a fine was contributing \u2013 I think it was like 500 hours to Legal Aid Services.<\/p>\n

Tropp: <\/b> That’s right.<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b> Which, uh \u2013 which I thought was uh, a much uh, much more effective way of handling it.<\/p>\n

Several voices compete<\/p>\n

Second<\/b> Male: <\/b> They \u2013 they were \u2013 they (unintelligible) presented convincing evidence that she was brainwashed, didn’t they?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> The psychiatrist, you mean.<\/p>\n

Second<\/b> Male: <\/b> Yeah, the psychiatrist for the \u2013 for Patty said they c \u2013 did that \u2013 the psychiatrist \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> How much \u2013 how much \u2013 how time was it, (unintelligible name)?<\/p>\n

Engineer: <\/b> Aah, about half an hour at most.<\/p>\n

Several voices compete for several moments. Conversation focuses mainly on amount of time spent taping, and how much time is left.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> All right, all right, let’s us go on again.<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b> Okay. Can you give us a little playback?<\/p>\n

Several voices compete<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. Play it back. Uh \u2013 give us some playback, see how we sound.<\/p>\n

Pause. Several voices compete.<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b> We might do one on spiritual healing, uh \u2013 along the same lines as, you know \u2013<\/p>\n

Recording:<\/b> [Jones] \u2013 a theologian, um. I have a great deal of empathy there. I think, but for the grace of God, could go any one of our children. We have seen a lot of precedents, or at least um \u2013 the \u2013 the news says that uh, it’s possible for \u2013 I saw a religious group not uh, too long ago that they said, that brainwashing takes place, and deprogramming is done. Now, if indeed brainwashing is \u2013 ah, is a fact, then it seems to me that there should’ve been some consideration for it in \u2013 with Miss Hearst. I realize, as you say, we have to decide at what point a person assumes responsibility, and we can’t allow lawlessness, but I \u2013 I thought I sensed \u2013 I hope it wasn’t so in the jury \u2013 but I sensed in the response of the crowd, that maybe they were reacting to who Miss Hearst was. If \u2013 if she had been the daughter of Mr. Average American, would there’ve as much desire to see her convicted? And of course there are others who say that uh, maybe it would’ve been worse, but I \u2013 my own feeling, having uh \u2013 the fact that I pastor a congregation here of over 8000 \u2013 um, I’ve seen a great deal of empathy. But you meet others that come to our various services here, our free examination and \u2013 and medical facilities and uh, our legal services and all the programs that we have here for people, and it seems to me that I \u2013 I s \u2013 I sensed a, a feeling \u2013 I don’t want to generalize \u2013 but a feeling of glee over her uh, uh, being found guilty. Mr. Tropp?<\/p>\n

Tropp: <\/b> Yes, uh, Pastor Jones, I wanted to comment a little bit about that. I discussed this case, uh, somewhat with my students, and uh, they felt \u2013 you know, I felt it was (clears throat) an interesting opinion that they had, that they felt that Patty should be put in jail, but I think their feelings were motivated, they said, because they were annoyed at seeing this case exposed so much in the media. They were tired of it.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> I see.<\/p>\n

Tropp: <\/b> They were annoyed by her. The media had overplayed it. They had used the Patty Hearst case and bandied it around and \u2013 and kind of made it into a circus. And I think that the effect of that after a while gets a person to maybe have a psychological reaction, that they just are annoyed with it. Let’s push it out of the way and \u2013 almost, I think, she was not just a victim of brainwashing \u2013 and I think she was \u2013 I think she \u2013 perhaps she was a victim of the extreme amount of publicity that was put upon her. She was rerun and rerun in the newspapers for two and a half years, and I think that could have a toll of people reading the newspapers and not \u2013 and not feel well (Pause) you know, they get tired of it.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> (during playback) (unintelligible) radio station let us do this, it seems to me that it’s much more beneficial, (unintelligible word) in a way. We need to get some letters right away to KFAX, (unintelligible phrase) wonderful, they’ll who it is, and so KFAX will be encouraged by it.<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b> (unintelligible) \u2013 indication the program has changed formats \u2013 (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> What the hell \u2013 what the hell were you doing there? We don’t dare \u2013 We don’t dare change \u2013 change formats (unintelligible phrase) listening, they’ll think it was uh \u2013 uh coming over Peoples Temple, it was Peoples Temple, and music and (sounds of mock hysteria) Peoples Temple.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> I’m not sure I’ll be able to change the name on the check tomorrow.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> What \u2013<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> From the voice of Peoples Temple.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> You don’t have to. Don’t have to \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> It’s interesting to have the perspective of a college instructor \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> (Pause) Now we’re going to go on. What \u2013 you \u2013 you’re not starting, are you?<\/p>\n

Engineer: <\/b> Huh?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> You’re just starting now, getting ready to start?<\/p>\n

Engineer: <\/b> No \u2013 yeah \u2013 I have \u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> (Calls out) Uh, pick it up right after Dick. Interesting to get the, uh, perspective of a college professor.<\/p>\n

Engineer: <\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Okay, I’ll go on from there, okay. (Pause) Ready?<\/p>\n

Engineer: <\/b> All right. (Pause) No! (Pause) Um \u2013 I’m ready!<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> I want to say, though, um, and we only probably have a few minutes, I haven’t even been watching time, I don’t think jail’s an answer (unintelligible word) for anyone. I notice in judge in Florida that’s been making sentences like this, umn, sending someone to be a \u2013 uh, working with uh, young people and uh, I saw a case where decided results had been obtained by this measure and uh, attorney Chaikin, you were telling me something about an, an attorney that was just found guilty of some crime and, uh, the \u2013 the sentence sound much more rehabilitative than what we find in the overcrowded conditions of the jails of America today.<\/p>\n

Chaikin: <\/b> Yes, I just uh, read a report about this case in the legal newspaper today, and uh, an attorney had been uh, convicted of uh, obtaining clients uh, by soliciting, which is uh, a violation of uh, of law, it’s a violation of the professional rules.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Chaikin: <\/b> And uh, the judge in the municipal court there did uh, give him a fine, but rather than use jail as an alternative, he ordered uh, this attorney to uh, to give a uh, large amount of time, perhaps 500 hours, if I recall correctly, to the local Legal Services Foundation, um, as a uh, as a donation of his time, and that was in lieu of jail sentence or, or other kind of uh, punishment, and it \u2013 it seems to me that this uh, is a very, very positive approach, not only to rehabilitation, but also to using the judicial uh, system in a way that helps the community.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Yes, and the enormous amount of tax expenditure to maintain these institutions, you, uh, you’re doing something constructive with the individual, and you’re not exposing them to the type of um, element that uh, I \u2013 one of the judges that uh, uh, attended our congregation said that he uh, knew in one instance \u2013 in one state where he’d served, uh, the uh, recidivism is so high, I \u2013 I’ve forgotten what he said amongst youth, but that youth that were exposed in this particular institution, 50% of them, of the males that came back were practicing homosexuals. They’re all sorts of uh, problems. Not \u2013 I’m not making condemnation on one’s sexual orientation, but I don’t think that the kind of sex activity of a jail, the aggressive and hostile and uh, perverted type of things that we hear as common practice, is any way going to help rehabilitate people, nor is a crowded situation, the alienation, removed from family structure, the nuclear family, uh, (struggles for words) I think we need to uh, really take a, a new look at what uh, should be done to rehabilitate people who have committed crimes.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> I think to rehabilitate people, you \u2013 you’ve got to get at the root causes of what caused them to commit crimes in the first place. And, from my perspective, I feel that it’s either uh, psychological or, or physical needs that, that cause them to do that in the first place. Um \u2013 Some are forced into crime as a \u2013 as a means of survival. Others go into crime, I feel, because of some lack in their upbringing or their, their childhood development, and they become alienated. And the thing that impressed me so much about Peoples Temple when I came here, uh, when I was with CBS, to do a documentary, was I saw so many people from backgrounds of crime, militancy and drugs who had been rehabilitated effectively, and I saw no recidivism virtually. And I wanted to find out what the reason was, and uh, what I found out was, that uh, in \u2013 in this church, which uh, you have provided such a, a beautiful example and inspiration for, people come in from every kind of background imaginable, and there’s immediate acceptance, no matter what it \u2013 seems to be wrong with the person, they’re accepted immediately, and then their abilities and talents are channeled into areas, where before, they had no outlet. And these two things \u2013 the acceptance and the, the opportunity to be productive in, in ways that best apply to the person’s abilities \u2013 fill the vacuum that cause them to go on drugs or commit crimes or become militant in the first place.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Thank you. We certainly have found uh, positive results in Peoples Temple. Perhaps next session \u2013 we’ll be on next week at the same time \u2013 we will go into some discussion about our spiritual healing. There’ve been requests that we discuss this. Again, we say to the listening audience, please let us know things that interest you and perhaps we’ll even invite some of you on as guests. You’ve been listening to Peoples Temple Christian Church, a congregation of 8000 members and uh, we are located at 1859 Geary Avenue. Our services \u2013 Our service schedule can be gotten by mailing um \u2013 ho \u2013 hold it, back up, back up, back up. I’m all fucked up. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Several voices compete.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Back up and hear Prokes. Stop at Prokes. Back up and stop at uh, Prokes. His was good. He has a good point. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Voice too low.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> Yeah, I suppose. “And uh’s”, that’s much better, “and uh’s”, I \u2013 I don’t know whether I did it, but these um \u2013<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> I think a few don’t matter. I think it’s natural uh \u2013 You’re not going to hear a program without them.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b> No, I don’t say so. But they’re um \u2013<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b> But they are distractive \u2013<\/p>\n

End of tape.<\/p>\n

Tape originally posted July 2000<\/b><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you. To return to the Tape Index, click here. To listen to MP3, click here. To read the Tape Summary, click here. Jones: (reading, cuts in mid-sentence) ” \u2013 University of Manitoba, and Department of Psychiatry at […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":6,"featured_media":0,"parent":27291,"menu_order":444,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-27527","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27527","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/6"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=27527"}],"version-history":[{"count":7,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27527\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":97989,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27527\/revisions\/97989"}],"up":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27291"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=27527"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}