{"id":27532,"date":"2013-06-16T00:20:51","date_gmt":"2013-06-16T00:20:51","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/alternativejonestown.com\/?page_id=27532"},"modified":"2023-06-17T13:38:07","modified_gmt":"2023-06-17T20:38:07","slug":"q677","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=27532","title":{"rendered":"Q677 Transcript"},"content":{"rendered":"

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.<\/strong><\/i><\/p>\n

To return to the Tape Index, click here.<\/a>
\nTo read the Tape Summary, click here<\/a>. Listen to MP3<\/a>.<\/p>\n

Jim Dunlap:<\/strong> (unintelligible beginning) Reverend Jim Jones (unintelligible word) where we are. So in answer to this mail, and many other requests that we have received, mostly from the FCC and the Reverend James Jones\u2013 (laughs) I\u2019m kidding, I\u2019m kidding. I\u2019m mostly too, because uh, last time Lester Kinsolving, uh, wild-eyed uh, uh, (pause) uh, I gotta be very careful about this, otherwise I\u2019ll have to have him<\/em> back on the show. Uh, (laughs) instead of Lester Kinsolving (unintelligible word) was on, he<\/em> said some awful things about the Reverend James Jones, and so the Reverend James Jones is back<\/em> again this morning, with<\/em> some additions, one uh, which look like a\u2013 one of whom will look like a parrot, but don\u2019t be fooled, one will look like a dog, but don\u2019t let that kid<\/em> you, and\u2013 and the third will look like a chimpanzee, and that one will be me. Anyway, stand by for the Reverend James Jones of Peoples Temple after you take a look at this, please.<\/p>\n

(Laugh at recording end)<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong> I guess I can stop it.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> That is Polly. Polly wants a part of my arm, I\u2019m going to s\u2013\u00a0sit at a safe distance here from uh, the Reverend James Jones and friends. That is not the Reverend James Jones. He is the colorless<\/em> one holding this very colorful uh, parrot, whose name is what, sir?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Auroric [phonetic].<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Rook?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Auroric.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Auroric.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Auroric. (unintelligible) I happened to be able to get him in our shelter, because he was quite a bad cusser\u2013<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Uh-oh.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> \u2013and he was pretty violent. But now we\u2019ve tamed him down considerably.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> He\u2013 he had a sa\u2013\u00a0a salty uh\u2013<\/p>\n

(Two men talk over each other about bird\u2019s vocabulary)<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Yeah. Could we bring some of those other people up here? Uh, whi\u2013 while we\u2019ve got all of the animals\u2013 (stumbles over words) You\u2019re not going to take him<\/em> away, are you? Or are you?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> No, I\u2013\u00a0I have to take him away, in order to\u2013<\/p>\n

(Two men talk over each other, unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Oh, I see.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible) just walk here.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Yeah, that\u2019ll be all right. Sure. Oop. Doesn\u2019t decide he wants to\u2013<\/p>\n

(Animal noises)<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> I beg your pardon. Let\u2019s hope we don\u2019t develop some sibling rivalry among the menagerie. Could we have uh\u2013\u00a0Let\u2019s look what we have for you here? We have, uh, in addition to Auroric, we have uh\u2013\u00a0who is this uh, person?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> This is Mr. Muggs<\/a>. And he uh, was going to be experimented on, we felt unnecessarily. So we uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Whoop.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> So we thought we wanted to rescue him\u2013<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> There goes a week\u2019s work, scattered about the studio\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible), but he\u2013 he beautifully went to him, to play with him to any extent, and we love him because of that (unintelligible under Dunlap)<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Um-hmm [Yes]. This is part of the uh\u2013 the uh\u2013 the animal population that you are\u2013 at your shelter.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Part of the many, many\u2013\u00a0Most of them are just ordinary little mutts and cats that\u2019ve been abandoned, we neuter them and immunize them and give them homes. I think (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Any resemblance between Mr. Muggs and a well-known (pause) pastor, and not this one, I\u2013\u00a0I hasten to point out, named Lester Kinsolving is coincidental.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I don\u2019t think he\u2019ll (unintelligible word) here.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Lester Kinsolving was on this program, uh, I don\u2019t know, a couple of months ago, and as is his way, he said some things that we all regret about the Reverend James Jones of Peoples Temple, and uh, I wasn\u2019t kidding<\/em> when I held this mail up. This\u2013 this is part<\/em> of the mail, this is just a sample of the stuff we collected. Uh, let me just read a couple of these things. Now, you<\/em> probably know the kind of thing that your parishioners write us. \u201cI was mostly uh\u2013\u00a0I was most interested in the advertisement in the San Francisco Chronicle of Sunday, July 22, concerning Pastor Jim Jones, who was to appear on your program. On the date aforementioned, I failed to view<\/em> your program until 7 A.M., which was my understanding of [when] the Reverend Jones was to appear. Can you inform me when he will be on your program?\u201d And a whole bunch of other ones, uh, uh, similar notes, commenting about your\u2013 your last scheduled appearance, which I believe<\/em> got canceled because of Watergate. Did it not?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Yes, certainly. Yes, I didn\u2019t think there was any issue about that (unintelligible word under Dunlap)<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Yeah. Well, at any rate, we just wanted to let your\u2013 let members of your congregation and anyone else<\/em> interested in the Reverend Jones\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible word) mostly non-members that would know because we made that clear to our membership, you know, the problem (unintelligible word under Dunlap)\u2013<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Yeah. My stars, the reaction is just\u2013 I uh\u2013 just unbelievable<\/em>. And that\u2019s really just a small sample of the mail. I just collected that for over a period of I think two days, so yeah, you could\u2013\u00a0uh, or\u2013 or maybe just a day. I\u2019ve forgotten. This is just a day or so.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t know I had that much popularity.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Well, you do. You do. And you\u2019ve been in the news recently because of a\u2013 a\u2013 a most unfortunate uh, fire<\/em> at\u2013 at the Temple here in San Francisco.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> This is why I would like to\u2013 I wish<\/em> I could get across to our critic the necessity of\u2013 of watching his sources because we couldn\u2019t even recognize the article\u2013 the one (unintelligible word) article we had from him. It\u2019s it\u2013 It\u2019s I think more than a coincidence that the two churches that uh, first inspectors have now said undoubtedly were connected both came under a blistering attack by this one reporter. I think that\u2013 not to say\u2013 (stumbles over words) And perhaps it encourages the flame of\u2013 it flames the passions of (unintelligible word). At least I think there\u2019s a good bit to look at, and we\u2019ve had others suggest this to us. If I hadn\u2019t had uh, a deep feeling on Wednesday night, and kept back my congregation, 700, it was just a kind of a feeling that hangs on to you, I just simply could not let them go, and I held them till two<\/em> o\u2019clock in the morning. Otherwise, forty young college students would\u2019ve been in there. They said they couldn\u2019t<\/em> have possibly<\/em> survived.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> You had a premonition.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I had a feeling, deep feeling, yes, a premonition.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Yeah. Of fire<\/em>, or just some danger?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible under Dunlap) It\u2019s just\u2013 The thing about the paranormal with me, I didn\u2019t recognize it, I mention fire, but the congregation was (unintelligible under Dunlap) of fire.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Remembered that you said fire.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> But all I could feel was the eerie feeling, and I do<\/em> remember the remark that (unintelligible), we\u2013\u00a0we must stay. We must stay. (unintelligible under Dunlap)<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> So when you say \u201cstay,\u201d whe\u2013 stay where, sir?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> In our congregation in Redwood Valley.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Oh, I see. (unintelligible under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> We normally would be out about 10:30, and we stayed till two<\/em> something in the morning. Otherwise, they would\u2019ve all been bedded down. He slipped in through the\u2013 through the basement part, where it woulda been easy to put the gasoline\u2013\u00a0or they<\/em> put gasoline at the stairwells, and in three\u2013 three minutes, no one could\u2019ve escaped.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> The fire department thinks it\u2013\u00a0or\u2013 or has confirmed that it was<\/em> arson.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Arson, and they suggested at least to us that both fires were connected, with the Lutheran Order of Man, which also was blistered in the same\u2013<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> By a Kinsolving article, huh.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Yeah. You think there\u2019s some kook running around out there\u2013<\/p>\n

(two talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> \u2013encouraged at least by this type of thing. I can\u2019t say. That\u2019s just\u2013 that\u2019s just (unintelligible under Dunlap)<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Yes, I\u2019m sure. Sure. Yeah. Well, we\u2019re sorry to learn about the\u2013 the fire and\u2013<\/p>\n

(two talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Woman at recording end<\/strong>: Jean [likely Jean Brown] says she\u2019s on.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> When do you suppose uh\u2013 I think this mail and\u2013 and the response to uh, your last appearance, which as everybody I guess now knows was\u2013 was uh, obviated by\u2013 by Watergate. We were stuck\u2013 uh, not stuck with, but you know what I\u2019m saying, Jim, we had no choice on Watergate. Uh, what do you think counts for the\u2013 the uh\u2013 I don\u2019t want to use the word \u201cfanatical\u201d, \u2018cause that\u2019s maybe overloading at little bit, but the uh\u2013 the uh\u2013 the devout loyal following that this sort of mail represents. One uh\u2013 one failure to appear, and we\u2013 we get flooded by mail, wanting to know what we\u2019ve done or uh\u2013 or\u2013 or when if it will be your appearance. What counts for that, do you suppose?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> As I say, the\u2013\u00a0the parish very well knew<\/em> about I wasn\u2019t going to appear, \u2018cause it was announced\u2013<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Now I\u2019m assuming, not a lot of this came from people who were not members of the parish\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> \u2013but uh, I don\u2019t know. Uh, it depends upon what kind of (unintelligible word) you\u2019re mentioning, we (unintelligible word) interest<\/em>, we use curiosity<\/em> on these people, I don\u2019t\u2013 I haven\u2019t read your mail, are people who reall\u2013<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019ll be glad to turn this over to you. It\u2019s uh\u2013\u00a0it\u2019s all kind of the same\u2013 the same\u2013 But I want to get us on the phone here, but let me just\u2013 I\u2019ll just pick one out at random here. This comes from San Francisco. Uh, you\u2013 your intent to have Dr. Jones on your uh, talk show this morning is uh, commendable, and I appreciate you\u2013\u00a0uh, you<\/em> for it. I had read in the uh, Sun-Reporter<\/em> newspaper that he would appear, and I was too (unintelligible) to discover Watergate was on and so forth and so on, signed, Jeff\u2013\u00a0Jeffrey Resnick of San Francisco, and there just dozens<\/em> and dozens of these letters. Well, listen, uh, a lot of people want to talk to you, and there\u2019s no point in me talking to you when\u2013 when you can talk to them<\/em>, so let\u2019s punch out the phone and give them a chance. Caller, you\u2019re on the air with Dr.\u2013 uh, with uh, Reverend Jones. Go ahead, please.<\/p>\n

Caller 1: <\/strong>Uh, yes, uh, a lot of things he was ab\u2013\u00a0about to be uh, you know, really rudely awakened. On Thursday, when the young child was allowed to die without his uh, insulin was (unintelligible) injected, still just is embalmed, you know, when the hour passes, and uh, I would like to uh, ask this uh, person what his feeling is when a person\u2019s died. Does he have any conscious\u2013 you know, (unintelligible) will be healed, you know, and they aren\u2019t, you know,\u00a0what\u2013\u00a0what is\u2013\u00a0what does his conscience lie? I\u2013\u00a0I really would like to know.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> All right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> He makes a great mistake in putting everyone in the same category. In the first place, I don\u2019t tell anyone<\/em> uh, that they\u2019re healed. I tell \u2018em to go and see if it will bear the test of empirical evidence. We do not ever<\/em> in any way oppose medical science. We teach\u2013 (unintelligible under caller)<\/p>\n

Caller 1: <\/strong>If they die, what (unintelligible) waiting for some evidence? Just like this child?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> You know what? We don\u2019t ask them to wait one minute. We don\u2019t ask them to wait one day. We tell \u2018em to go immediately to their doctor.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> How do you uh\u2013\u00a0I\u2019m glad the caller brought this up., \u2018cause I think lots of us have been wondering about this. Uh, this was in Barstow, (unintelligible word) a youngster uh, suffering an insulin uh\u2013 uh, needing insulin uh, was uh, to a faith healer\u2019s recommendation was taken off insulin and\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Well, that\u2019s fanaticism. (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> \u2013subsequently died, right. Right\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Complete fanaticism.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> I would\u2013\u00a0I would agree. Would you disagree with that, caller?<\/p>\n

Caller 1: <\/strong>Uh, I\u2013\u00a0I agree with (unintelligible) anyone in a real world knowing where medical science stands. I mean, you know, if you don\u2019t believe in evolution and all that, fine, but medical science has saved a lot of persons with\u2013 (unintelligible under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Indeed.<\/p>\n

Caller 1: <\/strong>\u2013persons, who, you know\u2013 (unintelligible) the person who has uh, uh, become (unintelligible) real world healers. And this was\u2013\u00a0this was one of the\u2013 the\u2013 the heaviest tragedies, where two parents, both of them suffering from the same, you know, temporary insanity, I hope, who\u2013 who allowed<\/em> their child to die<\/em>. I mean, this\u2013 this child had a right to life, and here you (unintelligible word) two parents, both over 18, who allowed this child to die. That\u2013\u00a0That is\u2013 That is the saddest thing I ever heard of.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Um-hmm [yes]. Okay, caller, thank you very much.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I agree with you, and I feel that no parent should impose their religious opinion to this degree upon their child.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Let\u2019s keep this alive just one more moment. Sorry for that choice of word. Uh, we\u2019ll break here for a moment. I\u2019d like to talk more about faith-healing as you understand it, and some of the resurrections or whatever they are that you\u2013 you have uh, you have performed. The Reverend Jim Jones is our guest, and we\u2019ll have some more as AM<\/em> rolls along right after a few announcements.<\/p>\n

Women at recording end talk, unintelligible<\/p>\n

(Editorial by station general manager on San Francisco police youth fishing program)<\/em><\/p>\n

(Music)<\/em><\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> It\u2019s 25 minutes after seven. The Reverend Jim Jones is our guest. If you want to talk to him, give us a call. East Bay, you\u2019re next with the Reverend Jones. Go ahead please. Hello! Caller!<\/p>\n

Caller 2:<\/strong> Hello.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Yes, ma\u2019am. You\u2019re on the air.<\/p>\n

Caller 2:<\/strong> Pastor Jim?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n

Caller 2:<\/strong> Uh, I was in a meeting uh, run by a reverend who criticized you, said that you have practiced black magic along with several other groups, and another occasion, I heard him say, Katherine Kuhlmann, Oral Roberts, Mary Baker Eddy, (unintelligible word), the Methodist even, uh, Jean Dixon and Edgar Cayce, and he said they all traffic in a form of modern black magic, well, I was just curious what is his connection with them.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t hear that comment, but uh, it\u2019s ludicrous. Uh, I\u2013\u00a0I have\u2013\u00a0I take deference to that word \u201cblack\u201d too, I uh\u2013 there\u2019s no magic in faith<\/em>, and we uh\u2013\u00a0we certainly have no interest whatsoever<\/em> in any kind of witchcraft or occultism in that<\/em> sense. I think he\u2013 All I heard on the last program was that he mentioned youths\u2019 interest in cults<\/em> and Satanism, and he blocked me along with some others, but I don\u2019t remember his remarks from\u2013\u00a0about Mrs. Kuhlmann and Mrs. Eddy were separate<\/em> from that particular package. Uh, I have no connection with any magic uh\u2013 That\u2019s uh, that\u2019s all I could say on this\u2013\u00a0on this subject.<\/p>\n

Caller 2:<\/strong> (unintelligible word, cut off by Dunlap)<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Well, what would you call him\u2013 ask both of you, caller and uh, Reverend Jones. What would you say uh, would be an a\u2013 an accurate description of uh, an ability to resurrect the comatose<\/em>, the dead<\/em>, uh, or\u2013 or whatever it is<\/em> that, you know, your faith will claim<\/em> for you? Isn\u2019t that magic? I would call it magic, or\u2013\u00a0or a mira\u2013 miraculous.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Well\u2013 Yes, (unintelligible word under Dunlap), in a sense, I suppose. We\u2013\u00a0We\u2019re very uh, humble about this. We say that the uh\u2013\u00a0the vital signs are not apparent to medical people (unintelligible), doctors and the nurses. But of course, we don\u2019t have any encephalogram, we\u2013 we don\u2019t have way of taking brain wave test. There have been unusual<\/em> phenomena reported to us through faith, using uh, on one occasion, I recall, a picture of lady who was waiting for the ambulance to come to get her daughter, and we checked that out<\/em>, and it seemed to be quite accurate. But uh, I don\u2019t think this is unusual in terms of even science today, when we find uh, that journals uh, such as Wall Street are mentioned (unintelligible) by love, and uh, the healing of wounds, I think, is Dr. Carol Nash, the eminent biologist that mentions how rats and rodents have responded to\u2013 to healing touches in a disproportionate sense that would show that unquestionably there\u2019s certain love force or magnetic force that goes from the hands. Uh, I think it\u2019s just an extra dimension of science<\/em> (unintelligible under Dunlap)<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> You don\u2019t think you\u2019re psychic?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/strong>No.<\/p>\n

Dunlap: <\/strong>Do you think you know a psychic (unintelligible word under Jones) ability.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> It\u2019s been proven that I\u2019ve had awareness<\/em> of things that were going to happen.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> I guess<\/em> this premonition would be an example of that. Caller, how do you feel about this?<\/p>\n

Caller 2:<\/strong> Well, I\u2013 I\u2013 I would be surprised to hear any uh, mention of Pastor Jones in connection with black magic, because my uh, mother-in-law\u2019s sister<\/em> had bad cataracts, and she went to uh, one of the pastor\u2019s meetings (unintelligible), and uh, when she came back, uh, they were gone<\/em>.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> They were\u2013\u00a0They were gone?<\/p>\n

Caller 2:<\/strong> Umm-hmm. Umm-hmm. (unintelligible word under Dunlap)<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Hmm. Well, what do you call that?<\/p>\n

Caller 2:<\/strong> Well, I don\u2019t know. Ask Pastor Jones, I\u2013<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> No, I want to ask you. I\u2013 I\u2013 You know, we just heard from the pastor Jones. What do you<\/em> call it?<\/p>\n

Caller 2:<\/strong> Oh, I\u2013 I think it\u2019s wonderful. I\u2013 I\u2013<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Well, I do too<\/em>, but is\u2013 is it not miraculous? Is that not magic?<\/p>\n

Caller 2:<\/strong> Uh\u2013 well, it\u2019s\u2013 I\u2013 I don\u2019t know. Magic. I think miraculous is a\u2013<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> I\u2019d<\/em> call it a miracle.<\/p>\n

Caller 2:<\/strong> Yes, indeed, I do<\/em> think it\u2019s a miracle.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> If it indeed occurred. And I\u2019m not disputing it, I just wasn\u2019t there, so I can\u2019t affirm that it occurred. I just have to take your word for it.<\/p>\n

Caller 2:<\/strong> I think (pause under Dunlap) the man uses his powers for the good, it\u2019s\u2013 it\u2019s uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Sure. Okay, thanks very much. San Francisco, you\u2019re next with the Reverend Jones. Go ahead, please.<\/p>\n

Caller 3:<\/strong> Hello, Mr. Dunlap.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n

Caller 3:<\/strong> Uh, I\u2019m calling in as a member of Peoples Temple. I\u2019ve been a member of four years now, and I want you to (unintelligible). I\u2019d just like to share some of my experiences with you that I\u2019ve had since I\u2019ve become a member of the church.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Okay.<\/p>\n

Caller 3:<\/strong> Uh, I\u2013 I was an atheist when I first came to the church. I was attracted by the human service ministry that I saw. But when I went<\/em> to the healing services, the many miracles that he happened to (unintelligible under woman at recording end). I myself<\/em> was healed by Pastor Jones.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Of what? What were you healed of?<\/p>\n

Caller 3:<\/strong> Well. I had suffered with constant kidney infection since I was a child. And my mother had taken me to so many specialists that I was losing faith in,\u2013in medical science.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> How did the Reverend Jones uh, cure you? What did he do?<\/p>\n

Caller 3:<\/strong> Well, the very first healing service that I went to, uh, Pastor Jones called me out through the gift of revelation, and he told me facts and events that happened in my life that I had not mentioned to anyone<\/em> in the room, as well as thoughts that I had that I never even verbalized to anyone.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Yeah, well, that didn\u2019t\u2013 That didn\u2019t cure your kidneys, did it?<\/p>\n

Caller 3:<\/strong> Well, then\u2013 this was\u2013 this built my faith<\/em>, and I realized that the\u2013 God was working so tremendously through<\/em> Pastor Jones. And uh, then, Pastor Jones spoke the word of healing to me, and I felt that relief<\/em> in my body, and I have never had um, trouble with my kidneys since then, and I\u2013<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> You had a certified kidney complaint? I mean, this was something doctors could\u2013 could verify?<\/p>\n

Caller 3:<\/strong> That\u2019s right, I did\u2013<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> This wasn\u2019t just stuff in your head there, it was a\u2013<\/p>\n

Caller 3:<\/strong> No, when I was a\u2013 a young child, it was something I though I\u2019d always have with me.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> And you\u2019ve had no problems since.<\/p>\n

Caller 3:<\/strong> No. None since.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> I\u2019d call that a miracle.<\/p>\n

Caller 3:<\/strong> I surely would too. And (unintelligible word) to me, I remember an older woman from Los Angeles, Roxanne White, came to a recent service, and she had been in a wheelchair for five years with arthritis. And Pastor Jones called her out though the spirit of revelation, and uh, within seconds<\/em>, she had gotten up out of her wheelchair, running around the auditorium, jumping and praising Mr.\u2013<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> You know, we\u2019ve seen so many\u2013 Now, I\u2019m not talking about the Reverend Jones here, and I hope you understand this, and I hope the caller understands it too, and I hope other viewers do, too. We\u2019ve seen so<\/em> many examples of fraud and trickery and deceit. Uh, they call that kind of thing uh, ringing in the\u2013\u00a0well, that\u2013 that\u2019s what they call a ringer. You know, I mean, there\u2019re a lot of ways I could explain that. In fact, I could perform that too. Ike (unintelligible name) and I could do that right now, could we, Ike, if we put Ike in a wheelchair, and he claimed to have been crippled for the last 12 years, and then suddenly when I lay on hands, up he jumps and runs around, and there might be a lot of folks suffering who would take that to be some sort of a sign<\/em>. And it would be nothing more than just a\u2013 just a\u2013\u00a0a trick<\/em>. How do you\u2013\u00a0how do you know it wasn\u2019t a trick?<\/p>\n

Caller 3:<\/strong> Well, I was close to the woman. I saw the tears in her eyes, I saw the look of joy on her face.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> You can\u2013 You can give the address.<\/p>\n

(Jones and caller talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Caller 3:<\/strong> \u2013the spirit, it was so strong, that if you had been there to witness it, as I have many<\/em> times, you\u2019d know that this\u2013<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Well, you certainly<\/em> know that the\u2013 the relief<\/em> you felt in your\u2013\u00a0in your kidneys, in your system was not a trick.<\/p>\n

Caller 3:<\/strong> That I do know.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Right. Okay. Thank you, ma\u2019am.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> We rightly remember that case, and I hope we mentioned it the last time. I said, whatever may have p\u2013 out there, I wouldn\u2019t, you know, be so speculative to say what condition may have put her there.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Sure.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> But she is\u2013 she\u2019s a person we can easily give you for documentation\u2013<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> This is the lady with the arthritis.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Yes. She was there five<\/em> long years, and something inspired her in that service. (unintelligible under Dunlap)<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> You mean, she\u2019d been coming to services for five years?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> No, no. She had been coming for some time<\/em>, though, in a wheelchair, but she\u2019d been five long years in a wheelchair, and this is a matter that we did document. So we have\u2013 I know who she\u2019s speaking of, I can give you uh, information (unintelligible word under Dunlap)<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> I\u2019m asking the question, Reverend Jones, only because uh, skepticism is uh, is kind of a healthy condition.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I think so. I think so.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> And uh, in the past, we have been uh, we\u2019ve exercised a healthy skepticism with respect to other psychic occurrences on this program. Uri Geller is an example. And lots of us have come away puzzled, confused<\/em>, about what we saw. Not quite so skeptical as before. And if it\u2019s possible<\/em> with Uri Geller, if he can indeed bend a nail by touching\u2013 by laying on hands, maybe you can cure a kidney problem by laying on hands, too, or ministering to the needs\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I\u2019m convinced\u2013 I\u2019m convinced that faith can heal.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019m not in a position to dispute it so stoutly as I used to. The Reverend James Jones is our guest, and we\u2019ll have some more as AM<\/em> rolls along, right after this.<\/p>\n

Woman at recording end:<\/strong> I gotta go. Goodbye.<\/p>\n

Tape edit. Music.<\/em><\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Uh, what\u2013 what\u2019ve we got up next. Okay, here\u2019s Peninsula. You\u2019re next, Peninsula. Go ahead please. Caller?<\/p>\n

Caller 4:<\/strong> Hello.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Hello, you\u2019re on the air, ma\u2019am, go ahead.<\/p>\n

Caller 4:<\/strong> (unintelligible question)<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Yeah, go ahead.<\/p>\n

Caller 4:<\/strong> I\u2019d like to know, uh, how is it that we can avoid the totalitarianism\u00a0 (unintelligible question)<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Let me ask you a question before we ask the Reverend Jones to comment on that. Are you a member of the Peoples Temple?<\/p>\n

Caller 4:<\/strong> Hmm?<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> (Louder) Are you a member of the Peoples Temple?<\/p>\n

Caller 4:<\/strong> No, I am not.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Have you ever heard him speak on uh, combating totalitarianism?<\/p>\n

Caller 4:<\/strong> Well, I\u2013 I\u2019ve read the article, and it\u2019s\u2013 you know, there\u2019s some\u2013<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Yeah. Well, listen, I\u2013 what I\u2019m getting at is, we\u2019ve got 12 lines in here (unintelligible preposition) Reverend Jones, and every one of them is from people who are uh, I\u2013 I think confirmed in their belief<\/em>. Uh, what we would like<\/em> to get is some folks who want to ask some honest questions. I think you already know the answer, don\u2019t you, caller?<\/p>\n

Caller 4:<\/strong> Pardon?<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> You already know the answer to the question you\u2019ve asked.<\/p>\n

Caller 4:<\/strong> I\u2019ve never heard him speak.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Oh, you haven\u2019t.<\/p>\n

Caller 4:<\/strong> \u2013read the article\u2013<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> I see.<\/p>\n

Caller 4:<\/strong> Yes, and I (unintelligible balance of sentence)<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Okay. Well, I\u2019ll tell you. We\u2019ll give you your answer on the air. And thanks for the call. Well, how do we combat totalitarianism?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/strong>(unintelligible)\u2013 hear?<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> How do we combat totalitarianism? Fascism. Communism. \u2018Cause she said she has read some of your comments on that.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/strong>(Pause) How do we combat it?<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Yeah. Apparently you\u2019ve spoken out on this, or\u2013 (unintelligible under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/strong>Well, I\u2013 I\u2019m concerned<\/em> about totalitarianism, and I feel that if the church does its part in taking care of the necessities of its people, as the Scripture admonishes, take care of the household of faith, I suppose we would be able to bring about the Jeffersonian dream, of the government that governs least, governs best. I\u2013 I don\u2019t know. I have no real (unintelligible under Dunlap)<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Is political orientation part of your uh, your daily ministry? Do you\u2013 do you feel the need to comment on politics?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/strong>Well, we\u2019re concerned about the basic freedoms, basic freedoms, not partisan politics, no.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/strong>Oh, we were concerned very much about the role of the free press recently, and of civil rights in general.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Sure. Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/strong>But uh, as far being as being a panacea, again, we don\u2019t\u2013 we just feel that the church will do less edifice building and\u2013 and do some of the things that we are doing and others aren\u2019t doing. This\u2013\u00a0their own senior citizen homes, their own convalescent homes, our own children\u2019s homes, take care of the animals, and this type of thing that we\u2019re doing, provide\u2013 as we do 109 youngsters in pursuit of education directly from our parish. Five are studying to be doctors. That shows the respect\u2013<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> How many members in the parish now, do you\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/strong>10,000.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> 10,000<\/em>.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/strong>Over 10,000.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Is that\u2013 that confined mostly to California, or is that nation\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/strong>California.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> In California<\/em>? How do you\u2013 Well, that church up there in Ukiah<\/em> isn\u2019t big enough to house (unintelligible under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/strong>Well, you\u2019re talking about\u2013 you\u2019re talking about in Los Angeles, San Francisco, and<\/em> the Redwood Valley church.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Yeah. Yeah. I see. You must have huge ser\u2013 How many services do you have<\/em> on a Sunday?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/strong>Oh, it\u2019s\u2013 Each week, I minister in Los Angeles, San Francisco and Redwood Valley. So it\u2019s a job.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Umm-hmm. Yeah, I bet.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/strong>And my voice is showing a little bit of it today. Fact is uh, one of my doctors think it\u2019s very miraculous that my voice continues. I use it about 12 hours a day.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> You do<\/em> see a doctor once in a while.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/strong>Oh, I believe\u2013 (unintelligible under Dunlap)<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Yeah, I\u2019m not\u2013 I know I seem very skeptical, even asking that question that way. You do.<\/p>\n

(Men talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> \u2013put a hand on your neck\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/strong>I\u2019m probably a poor doctor\u2019s patient<\/em>. I don\u2019t go as I ought<\/em> to, but I do recommend it strong, and uh, the\u2013\u00a0the fact that my voice\u2013 as much as I use it, 12 hours of public<\/em> speaking, is miraculous that it continues, so\u2013 And I don\u2019t have any treatment for that. That\u2019s something I\u2019ve had to learn.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Sure. Yeah. Okay, let\u2019s take our next caller. East Bay, you\u2019re next with the Reverend Jones. Go ahead, please.<\/p>\n

Caller 5:<\/strong> Hello.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Good morning.<\/p>\n

Caller 5:<\/strong> Um\u2013 I\u2019d like to ask the reverend, I heard you a couple of months ago that he\u2019s in favor of abortion. And that really surprised me, because I mean, I\u2019ve heard a lot of really nice things about the church.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> That he was in what? I didn\u2019t hear that.<\/p>\n

Caller 5:<\/strong> I\u2019m sorry. He was in favor of abortion.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Oh, in favor of abortion.<\/p>\n

Caller 5:<\/strong> Yes, and uh, I have a\u2013 a lot of respect for life, and I thought he did too, and my grandmother went to (unintelligible word) in Washington D.C., and sent me an article about his church in Washington, D.C., and how they were cleaning up the Capitol and stuff, and as I said, (unintelligible word), really fine thing about it, I just couldn\u2019t understand his point of view.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Caller 5:<\/strong> And I wish he would elaborate\u2013<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Well, all right, how about it?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I\u2013 I do not<\/em> take this stand, what\u2019d she say, against\u2013 (unintelligible under Dunlap)<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> And in favor\u2013 in favor of abortion.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I\u2013 She said I took a stand in favor of abortion.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> \u2013in favor of abortion. She\u2019d heard. She said.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Well, I take a stand that a body\u2013 that a woman\u2019s body is certainly is a part of her. I\u2019m not ironclad in the uh, position, I\u2019m\u2013\u00a0I\u2019m concerned<\/em> that, with any form of uh, human uh, murder, uh, I mean, when we start on the fetus, I\u2019m wondering where we will go next. Uh, I think there\u2019s a permissiveness about it that frightens me terribly. But I don\u2019t\u2013\u00a0I have not championed any view either\u2013\u00a0either one or the other.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Umm-hmm. Well, that doesn\u2019t sound like a pro statement to me<\/em>, caller. I\u2013 I\u2019ll give you a pro statement, if you want to hear one, so you can compare it.<\/p>\n

Caller 5:<\/strong> No, no, I think\u2013 I guess I (unintelligible phrase) misrepresented, \u2018cause I\u2013<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Well, maybe. Well, you\u2019ve heard it from the man himself.<\/p>\n

Caller 5:<\/strong> I beg your pardon.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> I say, you\u2019ve heard it from the man himself. Any questions further?<\/p>\n

Caller 5:<\/strong> No, I didn\u2019t hear (unintelligible statement)<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> We just did!<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I just spoke that I have not taken that kind of position.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Are you a member of Peoples Temple?<\/p>\n

Caller 5:<\/strong> No.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> All right. Are you thinking about it?<\/p>\n

Caller 5:<\/strong> Oh, no, I\u2019m thinking of going there. I feel\u2013 I think it sounds really interesting.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Umm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. Thanks very much. What about\u2013 Let\u2019s\u2013 Let me just ask you this. Uh, the snake people down South someplace who\u2019ve been passing rattlers among the faithful as a test<\/em> of faith, you know, test by the fire, and all that sort of business. And as a consequence<\/em>, you know, the little fellow who died because his parents took his insulin<\/em> away. Well, there\u2019ve been some people die because they\u2019ve been bitten by rattlesnakes<\/em>. Now, it seems to me there\u2019s a great danger that uh, (sighs) I hate to use the word “fanatic,” but I think some of the fanatics, I guess, have\u2013 feel that the only way to affirm it\u2013 it\u2019s not enough to just affirm it, affirm my faith in whatever, I have to hold a rattlesnake, to prove that I\u2013 I really can pass that test, and people die<\/em>.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible under Dunlap) \u2013sincere\u2013<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019m\u2013 Yeah, I guess that you\u2019d have<\/em> to be sincere to hold a rattlesnake. But how do you<\/em> feel about that? Aren\u2019t you concerned that\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I think that\u2013 I think anytime you take a (unintelligible word) position on matters like this, you\u2019re going to end up with this type of fanaticism. And I don\u2019t\u2013 And I think biblical evidence does not support it. Because all good things come from God. Now that would include medical science. All<\/em> things that are positive and good, and empirically proven<\/em>. Now uh, snakes\u2013 I\u2013 I think they distort the Scripture in Mark, about handling of snakes, uh, (unintelligible phrase), a responsible church does not involve itself in the (unintelligible word) of healing, it\u2019s only one small portion of our work, really. There\u2019s more<\/em> involved in human service than there are in spiritual healing. But the responsible<\/em> church does<\/em> not. It\u2019s going to be then left open to all these who uh, have sincere maybe, but fanatical ideas that end up in a tragedy like this, where people [were] waiting on a little boy to be resurrected in four days. And what pattern they\u2013 And why they picked four days, I don\u2019t know. Three days, Jesus was in supposedly the grave.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Yeah. Well, you see, Lester Kinsolving\u2013\u00a0not to defend Lester here, Lester\u2019s long gone. And I must say, in lots of ways, I\u2019m relieved. (Laughs) But to defend\u2013 Not to defend Lester, but to uh, to account for his\u2013 I think his antagonism<\/em>, Lester feels the same thing and puts you in the same group with the\u2013 the snake people.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Well, he didn\u2019t when he was there, visiting us.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Yeah. Well\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> So I don\u2019t know\u2013<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> I think that\u2019s the implication of what he\u2019s saying, you know, I\u2019m not trying to put words in his mouth, or\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Just show us another (unintelligible word) program that has, uh, free legal services for the poor. Housing for its people, guarantee to its people that they will never be left lonely in their golden years. Senior citizen homes, college dormitories, this kind of thing. I don\u2019t know of any group that involves itself in the mystical\u2013\u00a0or so much that it does what we are doing.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Let me ask\u2013\u00a0Let me ask about um, funding. It always comes up, so let\u2019s ask about it. These folks who receive free housing. Do they give up anything in exchange for that? For example, do they give up\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Uh, not at all. Not at all. Not required\u2013<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> No, not required, but do they voluntarily give up money for example?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible under Dunlap) No. We have not had any property turned over to our church (unintelligible under Dunlap), generously, uh, but there\u2019s no arbitrary rule about that. The fact that last month, we have saved<\/em> three of our members\u2019 homes. We\u2019ve saved a lot<\/em> of people\u2019s homes, by paying back payments, older people who were disadvantaged economically, and uh, I can recall that this point that no property being transferred to us.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> I\u2013 I\u2013\u00a0I say that, \u2018cause I know of one<\/em> congregation\u2013 not yours, but it\u2019s up, uh, it\u2019s up your way\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Yes, I know.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> And uh, part of the arrangement<\/em> is, in order to uh, to uh, receive certain tax benefits, is the members of the congregation turn out over all<\/em> of their worldly goods, all their real property, to the uh, church, and it\u2019s incorporated, it receives a\u2013 a blanket\u2013 Apparently if it receives a blanket uh, tax exemption as a consequence, the church doesn\u2019t real\u2013\u00a0realize<\/em> that this property, and then, then allows you and me to live in the house that we formerly had title to, and I would turn the title over to\u2013 they\u2013 they now hold the deed and so on. And it\u2019s kind of a tax dodge, it\u2019s not\u2013\u00a0again, I\u2019m not talking about the Reverend Jones. It\u2019s kind of a tax dodge, it provides the church with what it needs, uh, real estate and uh, and it increases its net worth\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible under Dunlap) \u2013clear on this point? I would be happy to see all<\/em> churches would lose any<\/em> kind of tax privileges and ministerial privileges to avoid war. Then I think the church\u2019s conscience would return, and uh, it would be\u2013 it would do a great<\/em> deal for uh\u2013\u00a0to boost the uh, the life and the spirit of the church.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Let me uh\u2013 Let me turn this over to you. You\u2019d be interested I think in some of this mail. We\u2019ve saved\u2013\u00a0That\u2019s just a portion of it\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Thank you.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> All right, I\u2019ll uh\u2013 any\u2013\u00a0any more mail that we get, I\u2019ll pass along to you. Good to have to you here.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> It\u2019s a pleasure.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Sorry about Lester.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Well, I hope we won\u2019t have to be (unintelligible under Dunlap)\u2013<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Well, he\u2019s in Washington, so I don\u2019t think we have that to worry about it again. And thanks for bringing uh, the parrot and the dog and the uh\u2013 and the chimp. Nice to see you again.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible sentence under Dunlap). Thank you very much.<\/p>\n

Dunlap:<\/strong> Reverend Jim Jones and Peoples Temple. (starts introduction of next guest)<\/p>\n

End of tape<\/strong><\/p>\n

Tape originally posted May 2013<\/b>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you. To return to the Tape Index, click here. To read the Tape Summary, click here. Listen to MP3. Jim Dunlap: (unintelligible beginning) Reverend Jim Jones (unintelligible word) where we are. So in answer to this mail, […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":6,"featured_media":0,"parent":27291,"menu_order":449,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-27532","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27532","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/6"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=27532"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27532\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":123127,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27532\/revisions\/123127"}],"up":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27291"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=27532"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}