{"id":27533,"date":"2013-06-16T00:20:51","date_gmt":"2013-06-16T00:20:51","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/alternativejonestown.com\/?page_id=27533"},"modified":"2014-04-08T21:59:52","modified_gmt":"2014-04-08T21:59:52","slug":"q678","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=27533","title":{"rendered":"Q678 Transcript"},"content":{"rendered":"

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.<\/strong><\/i><\/p>\n

To return to the Tape Index, click here<\/a>. To listen to MP3, click here<\/a>.
\nTo read the Tape Summary, click here<\/a>.<\/p>\n

(Note:<\/strong> This tape was one of the 53 tapes initially withheld from public disclosure.)<\/em><\/p>\n

Part 1: Conversation between Temple member and aide to John Barbagelata<\/strong><\/p>\n

Sound of phone ringing. Whispers.<\/p>\n

Barbagelata Aide:<\/b> Hello. May I help you?<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b>Yes, I\u2019d like to uh, speak to Mr. Barbagelata about Jim Jones.<\/p>\n

Barbagelata Aide: <\/b>Uh, (Sighs) he\u2019s not in right now. May I take a message?<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b>Uh, is there a place I can reach him?<\/p>\n

Barbagelata Aide: <\/b>Not at the moment.<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b>Uh, does he have an assistant or aide\u2014<\/p>\n

Barbagelata Aide: <\/b>I\u2019m one of his aides.<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b>Oh, I see.<\/p>\n

Barbagelata Aide: <\/b>Uh-huh.<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b>Well, uh, maybe you could take some notes or something to give him a message?<\/p>\n

Barbagelata Aide: <\/b>I certainly will.<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b>Um, I understand that he made some negative reference to Jim Jones and Peoples Temple in a hearing last night?<\/p>\n

Barbagelata Aide: <\/b>Last night?<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b>Um-hmm.<\/p>\n

Barbagelata Aide: <\/b>Oh?<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b>And I, you know, felt that if\u2014 if he\u2019s going to be attacking Jim Jones, he\u2019d be\u2014 he\u2019s going to be very embarrassed, because Peoples Temple actually supported his ballot proposal, (Pause) and\u2014 and uh, Jim Jones gave support<\/i> to the proposal on the radio.<\/p>\n

Barbagelata Aide: <\/b>(Unintelligible\u2014 could be “Wait a minute”). Peoples Temple supported\u2014<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b>\u2014his ballot proposal\u2014<\/p>\n

Barbagelata Aide: <\/b>JB\u2019s ballot proposal. Yeah?<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b>\u2014and gave it\u2014\u00a0and Jim Jones gave support to uh, his proposal on the radio.<\/p>\n

Barbagelata Aide: <\/b>(Taking notes) Okay?<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b>\u2014and uh, he\u2014 uh, Mr. Barbagelata mentioned Mr. Tim Stoen, if my information is correct, and Mr. Stoen is not<\/i> with the DA\u2019s office. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Barbagelata Aide: <\/b>What was this regarding? I\u2014 I left about six last night, so, you know, (laughs) I\u2014<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b>Well, it was information that uh, passed on to me about his comments, so that\u2019s why, you know, I men\u2014 uh, am mentioning these things because some of his information is cor\u2014 incorrect, for one thing, because they uh\u2014 He should check<\/i> the records, \u2018cause Mr. Stoen did not marry a minor, which was\u2014 which Mr. Barbagelata s\u2014 stated, and that\u2019s, you know, quite a, you know, um, error, and uh, another thing is that uh, Reverend Jones was very supportive of Mr. Barbagelata when he was victimized<\/i> by terrorists.<\/p>\n

Barbagelata Aide: <\/b>Hmm.<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b>Another thing is that uh, Jim Jones resigned from his position and further declined to give support to the mayor [George Moscone] in fighting um, Mr. Barbagelata\u2019s ballot proposal.<\/p>\n

Barbagelata Aide: <\/b>((Incredulous) He resigned from his commission?<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b>His po\u2014 his position, (unintelligible word), I think, as\u2014 as I understand.<\/p>\n

Barbagelata Aide: <\/b>When was this?<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b>Uh\u2014\u00a0It must have been just recently, because uh, he\u2019s no longer in the position, he\u2014 as far as I understand.<\/p>\n

Barbagelata Aide: <\/b>Huh.<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b>We can check into that, if\u2014<\/p>\n

Barbagelata Aide: <\/b>Well, I\u2019ve seen the\u2014<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b>\u2014or he\u2019s\u2014 he\u2019s planning to\u2014<\/p>\n

Barbagelata Aide: <\/b>\u2014the news bulletins come through, and\u2014 and they said uh, the Reverend Jones has been absent<\/i>, but it hasn\u2019t said anything about, uh, you know, him resigning.<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b>Apparently, he is planning to resign (short laugh) his position.<\/p>\n

Barbagelata Aide: <\/b>Huh.<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b>And\u2014 but he\u2014 he declined to give su\u2014 his<\/i> support to the mayor in fighting<\/i> Mr. Barbagelata\u2019s ballot proposal.<\/p>\n

Barbagelata Aide:<\/b> Declined to gi\u2014 uh, okay, I\u2019ll certainly let the supervisor know\u2014<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b>And uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Barbagelata Aide:<\/b> Declined to give his support to mayor.<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b>And the church<\/i>, uh, has 9000 members, and they\u2019re\u2014 they\u2019re not the kind of people I\u2014\u00a0I think he wants to take on. Uh, believe<\/i> me, I mean, I\u2014 I personally have been<\/i> through, you know, in favor<\/i> of Mr. Barbagelata\u2019s proposition, but I\u2014 I feel very strongly that if he\u2019s attacking Jim Jones, he\u2019ll lose my support, and a lot of other conservative people who appreciate what Jim Jones [has] done to speak out against terrorism on the left, and elements like the Nazis.<\/p>\n

Barbagelata Aide:<\/b> Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b>I know, you know, he may be considered to be left of center, perhaps by some, but he\u2019s done more to get anti-social elements off the streets and to rehabilitate drug addicts and militants than an\u2014 anyone I know<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Barbagelata Aide:<\/b> Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b>And uh, I don\u2019t know if the source that he got some information was uh, Lester Kinsolving, but uh, that gentleman has been voted out of the press corps for accepting payoffs. This was reported in both the Chronicle<\/i> and Examiner<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Barbagelata Aide:<\/b> Who was that again?<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b>Lester Kinsolving.<\/p>\n

Barbagelata Aide:<\/b> Do you know how to spell that?<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b>(Laughs) It\u2019s K-i-n-s-o-l-<\/p>\n

Barbagelata Aide:<\/b> Uh-huh.<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b>-v-i-n-g.<\/p>\n

Barbagelata Aide:<\/b> Uh-huh.<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b>And he\u2019s been voted out of the press corps for accepting payoffs. And this was reported in both the Chronicle<\/i> and Examiner<\/i>, as I understand.<\/p>\n

Barbagelata Aide:<\/b> Oh. Uh-huh.<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b>I\u2014 I just want to say that I\u2019m\u2014 I feel strongly about this. I\u2019m not a member of the church, but I\u2019m uh\u2014 visited and I\u2019m well familiar with the\u2014 their programs and uh, I think they\u2019re doing a lot of good.<\/p>\n

Barbagelata Aide:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b>So if you could pass that on, I\u2019d really appreciate it\u2014<\/p>\n

Barbagelata Aide:<\/b> I certainly will. Can I tell him who called?<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b>Well, just\u2014 just give the message, please, I\u2019d\u2014\u00a0I\u2019d appreciate that very much. (Pause) I\u2014 I\u2014<\/p>\n

(Two women talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b>\u2014the Bethel AME church, if you\u2019d want to state that.<\/p>\n

Barbagelata Aide:<\/b> The Bethel who?<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b>AME Church.<\/p>\n

Barbagelata Aide:<\/b> AME Church. Okay.<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b>Thank you very much.<\/p>\n

Barbagelata Aide:<\/b> Certainly.<\/p>\n

Caller: <\/b>Um-hmm.<\/p>\n

Balance of Side 1 is blank<\/strong><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Side 2: <\/b>Begins with several minutes of silence<\/p>\n

Part 2: Short conversation between Jones and unknown male.<\/strong><\/p>\n

Sounds of people milling about<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Yeah, the other one (unintelligible) as well as its industrial scheme (unintelligible). Uh, what else? Didn\u2019t he tell you whatever the hell it was?<\/p>\n

Male:<\/b> I think something about a hotel or (unintelligible)\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Oh, yes\u2014<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Part 3: Phone call between receptionist in Ruth Stapleton\u2019s office and Mike Prokes<\/strong><\/p>\n

Receptionist:<\/b> Ms. Stapleton\u2019s office.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yes, my name is Michael Prokes. I\u2019m an associate minister to Reverend Jim Jones of Peoples Temple in San Francisco?<\/p>\n

Receptionist:<\/b> Yes, uh-huh.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Uh\u2014 Rosalynn\u2014 Mrs. [Carter] uh, the First Lady suggested that Reverend Jones and, and uh, Mrs. Stapleton uh, meet. This was some months<\/i> ago, but uh, at the time Reverend Jones had a conflict in his schedule which had him out of uh, state and uh, he was in South America up until a couple of days ago and he\u2019s just returned, and I uh, see where Mrs. Stapleton is going to be in San Francisco tonight, and thought that perhaps, if her schedule allowed it, she would like to uh, meet with Reverend Jones uh, sometime maybe tonight or tomorrow, if she\u2019s still in town.<\/p>\n

Receptionist:<\/b> Uh. I have no way of getting in touch<\/i> with her. She should be calling me, uh, tonight. If not, it will be in the morning. Uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Well, in that case, uh, we could probably just see her uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Conversation cut off.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Part 4: Ben Bowers, Jim Jones and other talk about radio problems<\/strong><\/p>\n

Male: <\/b>Testing, one two three. Testing one two three four.<\/p>\n

Sounds of people milling about.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>The uh\u2014 We have a mutual problem, if we don\u2019t have a mutual fellowship.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/b> That\u2019s true.<\/p>\n

2nd Male:<\/b> Um. Tell him not to\u2014 (Pause)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Tell him what? I\u2019ll go appear with what we think\u2014 (movement of furniture). See how he thinks about it. (Pause) (Movement)<\/p>\n

2nd Male:<\/b> To start with, I think\u2014 what we were thinking is that we need to take a position that uh, you\u2019ve been in here supervising this most of the time, because the work is so important to the church, periodically you leave, you\u2014 you take a meal, you\u2019d have to go to the toilet, occasionally you\u2019d even go out to\u2014 to work but you always came in and turned it on, first of all.<\/p>\n

3rd Male:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

1st Male:<\/b> As far as the uh\u2014\u00a0and uh\u2014 They\u2019ll\u2014 they\u2019ll check it out and they\u2019ll check the power application. If they ask anything about call signs, you know, do we use call signs, you just don\u2019t know anything about it. If you\u2019re asked, say simply, I don\u2019t know a thing<\/i> about that. I\u2019ve done<\/i> it, I don\u2019t know anything about it. Uh, as far as the log book\u2019s concerned, I think the only approach we can take, and it\u2019s not a really good one, is you know, I kept one for\u2014 for quite a while and then, uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Kids\u2014<\/p>\n

1st Male:<\/b> Either some kids or something took it here, and I just\u2014<\/p>\n

Ben:<\/b> Well, here\u2019s the log book.<\/p>\n

1st Male:<\/b> Hmm?<\/p>\n

Ben:<\/b> Here is the log book. If we\u2019ve been filling it for the last ten days, it would be reasonably accurate.<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>The thing is, we can\u2019t<\/i>, because if they\u2019ve been monitoring us, it prevents us signing with\u2014 if they\u2014 they know what we\u2019ve been doing.<\/p>\n

2nd male:<\/b> They probably only want to get (unintelligible) in print.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>That\u2019s it. Well, the thing I wanted to say was that\u2014 or the\u2014 the approach I<\/i> thought, because obviously, they\u2019re going to know that, too. I\u2019m gonna say uh, well, right, you know, it\u2019s\u2014 it\u2019s, you know, verbatim from day to day to day to day, and I\u2019m just going to say, it\u2019s got, you know, monotonous, and I didn\u2019t keep it up the way I should<\/i> have, but you know, I thought it was, the week it was (unintelligible word) reasonably accurate (unintelligible word). If we can, you know\u2014 there\u2019s more. The other thing I (unintelligible) more of is your starting<\/i> time and your stopping<\/i> time. Because they are going to be basic<\/i> (unintelligible). The log book. To not have a log book is maybe\u2014\u00a0you know, at least have something<\/i>. It would be, like, gross<\/i> incompetence.<\/p>\n

Another male:<\/b> If we\u2014<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>(unintelligible) gross incompetence, because you\u2019re a qualified (unintelligible) and not unlocked facility.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Uh, if it\u2019s unlocked, then that\u2019s my responsibility. I mean, more\u2014 I\u2019m the control operator. Whatever happens, okay, I\u2019m responsible for.<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>Yeah. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Now, you know, obviously I can\u2019t say why I have the sole key to this room, and you know, I don\u2019t know, somebody picked the lock or uh\u2014 I could say it got ripped off at\u2014 the guy was just extremely<\/i> skeptical. He said, “Gee, that was just really<\/i> suspicious, the way you just happened to disappear the minute we knocked on the door, you know.”<\/p>\n

Unknown male:<\/b> Yeah, really.<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>Well, maybe if you give him the log book and had (conversation overwhelms her)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(unintelligible as he interrupts)\u2014 acts like, what\u2019s his mood. Was he hostile?<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>No, he was just kind of like\u2014 you know, if the state cop and he pulls you over and you were going 70 and they\u2019re very cheerful and, you know, and uh\u2014 he said\u2014 He\u2019s, you know\u2014\u00a0He warmed up, he\u2014 He said uh\u2014 I said look, I\u2019ve been doing this for a long time and I said, I know I\u2019ve been in remiss in a lot\u2014 you know, in a lot of areas, obviously, because you, you know, called<\/i> on me. And he said, well, then you\u2019re not trying to deny that you (unintelligible) mistakes, and he said, well that\u2019s, you know\u2014 he kind of opened up to that, he said, well that\u2019s\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(unintelligible) haul this stuff here, we gotta get in all this stuff right through you, if they\u2014 the power, (unintelligible) presence whatever, that\u2019s all let\u2019s say. What\u2014 what have you\u2014 have you met this man?<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>What\u2014 what do you\u2014 Do you know what you cost me, coming back here with this kind of a\u2014 I don\u2019t uh\u2014 I\u2019m really shocked<\/i> that you would take such a stance. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>I just (unintelligible) it right now, but I just kind of got informed, I want to get out of here.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, what is it? Was it\u2014 (unintelligible, as two people talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>(unintelligible) wasn\u2019t going over to the mission?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Hmm?<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>I wasn\u2019t going to go over to the mission. What I want to do is stay here until everybody was more or less gone<\/i>, and then just not go over.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(unintelligible) But I wasn\u2019t trying to get you in the mission, I was trying to get some days off to get a radio built in the\u2014 in the headquarters<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Well. (Pause) I couldn\u2019t say, “Well”\u2014 I couldn\u2019t say, “Well, look, I\u2019m not going to come, because I don\u2019t want to go over to the mission and uh\u2014 If I have to, I\u2019m gonna quit.”<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>Your ticket was round trip, Ben.<\/p>\n

(People talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>I just\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>That\u2019s it?<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>I mean, your ticket was round trip, you weren\u2019t going over, they keep you there a few days\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>When we presented it, did you think you were going to stay?<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>I assumed<\/i> that. I mean, my assumption was, I don\u2019t care what you told me, that\u2019s what I figured.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, why would you think\u2014 I\u2019ve only got one operator here.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>I don\u2019t know. To me, it was lunacy<\/i> to go over there in the first place, because Al [Touchette] can set it up as well\u2014<\/p>\n

(Several people talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>He can\u2019t\u2014 He couldn\u2019t\u2014 He couldn\u2019t do it. He tried to do it.<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>Al said he has no idea\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>They tore the roof off\u2014 tore the whole roof<\/i> off. Holes<\/i> that are there. He couldn\u2019t<\/i> do it. That\u2019s\u2014 That was the reason I wanted you to come.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Well, I couldn\u2019t\u2014\u00a0See, he set that radio up over there (furniture moved) beautiful tower. I\u2019m not that good at building towers. And that\u2019s the main thing, is putting up a big antenna. And that takes, you know, three weeks, a month, two months. You try to dig a six-foot hole, pour concrete, you know, and that\u2019s\u2014<\/p>\n

(Several people talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(unintelligible) Well, that he coulda done\u2014 he coulda done\u2014 he coulda done that. But we needed a person\u2014 well, the main reason we needed some help, I think, to help build<\/i> it, to give it directionally. He wasn\u2019t sure at all about getting the thing in position here\u2014<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>I\u2014 I\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>But he tried to get it on the roof and just tore the roof up. He had no way to do it on the roof. Two of the holes\u2014\u00a0(unintelligible) holes in it. (Pause) And we uh\u2014 Boy, for somebody that had (unintelligible) the antenna, I presume you knew more about it than anybody.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Well\u2014 that\u2019s a (unintelligible phrase)\u2014 near as I can tell. (unintelligible) gotta be hung up for however long\u2014<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>You know, they said the only way to get the radio in was if the license op[erator]\u2014 and our licensed op came with it\u2014<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Right, and I\u2014<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>\u2014because when you were going to send<\/i> it, then Paula [Adams] said, well, it\u2019s not going to do any good. Unless you<\/i> came over, we would not be able to get it through Customs.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>I relinquished all that stuff when I turned it over to Paula, though. As far as I know, I\u2019m no longer a licensed operator in Guyana.<\/p>\n

(Pause. Jones talks too low)<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>Uh\u2014\u00a0no, Paula said that she\u2014 that, see, the radio (furniture moved) around with it.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Well, they would let the radio through<\/i>, but it would be hung up in Customs. Like the last time when we (unintelligible) transfer, that time I was licensed. Well, I was there for two weeks and it never got (unintelligible) it was there, I think it was about (unintelligible, as people talk among themselves)\u2014<\/p>\n

Deep-voiced Man: <\/b>But I think they got a different relationship<\/i> with them now, though. I think it might be able to be\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Did you know I was under legal danger coming back here?<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>I didn\u2019t know you\u2019d come back.<\/p>\n

Man: <\/b>Why?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Why? You think I\u2019d not risk going to jail to save this movement? (Pause) Had enough with the double whammy, with all the paranoia with the FBI\u2014<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>I don\u2019t know. I don\u2019t know what jeopardy\u2014\u00a0I do not know what jeopardy you are in. But I, you know\u2014 I assumed<\/i> that, you know\u2014 you were under jeopardy, that\u2019s why you went over there. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>That\u2019s the only way I do (unintelligible) radio operator goes out, and all my people stuck back here, are some of them going into jeopardy too. (Pause) I have to make projections based on people<\/i>. Where do you live?<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Where do I live?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Mmm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b> (Pause) Uh\u2014 I\u2019d rather not say.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>How about 94 (unintelligible) Terrace.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>What about uh\u2014 See, that\u2019s what I\u2019m\u2014 See, I\u2019m uh\u2014 Now, you make me very nervous. You ought to know that I will require an investigation.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>(unintelligible with Jones speaking) \u2014should be nervous, and I don\u2019t like the situation, but\u2014 I can\u2019t see coming back\u2014<\/p>\n

Deep-voiced Man: <\/b>Not even\u2014<\/p>\n

(People talking over each other)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I didn\u2019t say\u2014 I didn\u2019t say you couldn\u2019t. I have to base my uh, my stances<\/i> though. \u2018Cause we\u2019re getting down the line of live and die. If you can\u2019t depend upon some people that you believe in\u2014<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Well, check that on the “live and die.” \u2018Cause that\u2019s true.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, I know. I know that<\/i>. But (unintelligible word) (Pause) Why did you\u2014 why did you actually give the ad\u2014 the address to the\u2014<\/p>\n

(People talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Didn\u2019t you think I had enough intelligence to have that and<\/i> your Los Angeles and everything about you, in about, what, thirty minutes?<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>I\u2014 you know, if you want to do that, but I\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, why wouldn\u2019t<\/i> I do it, Ben? Why wouldn\u2019t<\/i> I do it? If you were (unintelligible) of the movement, why wouldn\u2019t we\u2014 why wouldn\u2019t we do it?<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>I don\u2019t know. Why would you want it?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Why wouldn\u2019t<\/i> I?<\/p>\n

Male: <\/b>Because you left.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Okay.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>You know, you\u2019re hostile\u2014 (unintelligible as Ben and Jones talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>I know\u2014 but I don\u2019t want to be\u2014\u00a0you know, I don\u2019t like to be (unintelligible) followed around, either. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, wait\u2014<\/p>\n

Man: <\/b>We don\u2019t know where you\u2019re at.<\/p>\n

(People talk over each other, furniture moved.)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(intense) (unintelligible) something could happen in this room now. You understand? This isn\u2019t a matter of whether you\u2019re followed around. Some of us are ready to die<\/i>. It\u2019s easy for you to decide to live<\/i> in fascism, enjoy it, uh, the fruits of it. I don\u2019t give a shit if you met with the FCC [Federal Communications Commission] or not. I don\u2019t give<\/i> a shit. I\u2019m sick of this. I\u2019m sick<\/i> of people betraying the best friend that ever walked on the fucking earth. I\u2019m sick<\/i> of it. I\u2019m just as ready to die as to breathe. So I don\u2019t have no question about you (unintelligible) living or dying with us. I\u2019m talking about us<\/i> living or dying. We have to make projections<\/i>. If there\u2019s nobody<\/i> you can depend upon, then you\u2014 your course is slightly\u2014 sli\u2014 slightly made out for you.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>(unintelligible) difficult situation, and I would like to\u2014 where\u2014 (Pause)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Do you want to talk\u2014<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>What do you want from me? I mean, that\u2019s what I need to know. Is it\u2014 Is what you want is radio contact? You want a system worked out so you can maintain radio contact.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Yeah.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Uh\u2014 That\u2019s a tough (unintelligible word). I don\u2019t know what they\u2019re gonna\u2014\u00a0I can\u2019t predict the FCC. Now, as far as what you gonna be able to say over there and get away with, I don\u2019t know. This is unexpected<\/i> to me. I didn\u2019t expect you to come to the door.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, neither did we, but you are expected (unintelligible). How do you, Ben, enjoy us\u2014 (unintelligible) you were real\u2014 you were not involved with material things, you didn\u2019t seem. How do you suddenly turn and want to eat<\/i> from the, the system that has drained the blood of uh, the Chilean (unintelligible, with furniture moved about)\u2014<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>I don\u2019t love the system, but\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Then you ques\u2014\u00a0question my organization, where we\u2019re going. Are you saying\u2014<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>I just want (unintelligible). I just have not\u2014\u00a0It\u2019s just been a mystery to me for about a year.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>What\u2014 what has\u2014<\/p>\n

2nd male: <\/b>A year?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>What is a mystery? It\u2019s supplies to Zaire, or the Union of South Africa, or getting people out of Chile in refugee centers. Now what is\u2014\u00a0What is the mystery? What is the mystery?<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>That\u2019s no mystery to me, but I just\u2014 I\u2014 I don\u2019t know, it\u2019s just the\u2014 the way that\u2014\u00a0I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Well, what\u2019s different? What\u2014 what\u2019s been changed that could cause you to think that there\u2019s a mystery? I mean\u2014 Why do you say a mystery? (Pause) We\u2019ve operated it the\u2014 the way we always have.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Well, I guess I just didn\u2019t see it the same\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>What? What\u2019s different about it?<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Any organization worth its salt gotta survive and help people. You can\u2019t\u2014 you can\u2019t do most of it alone (unintelligible as voice fades). What is it that you\u2014 makes you be informed?<\/p>\n

(Voices too soft for several exchanges)<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Just like going to LA every weekend, that kind of stuff.<\/p>\n

(People talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>\u2014newspapers, and\u2014 and uh\u2014 (Pause) you know, crowded and\u2014 hassle driving all over creation and\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>What about\u2014 what about children that are crowded, as many as 17 in their (unintelligible)\u2014<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>That\u2019s trie. I get\u2014 I\u2019m not (unintelligible word) you, it\u2019s (unintelligible), to me, I\u2014 I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, you oughta said that. \u2018Cause you caused a great deal of risk to me, to me and the organization, bringing back across the border, \u2018cause your\u2014 your statement was that you didn\u2019t like for the organization (unintelligible as someone sneezes). Every time a statement like that comes out, it al\u2014 it always ends up one step\u2014 one that stepped\u2014 one step graduated down, till we get into this insidiousness.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Well, I\u2019m not\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I\u2019ve fought with such insidiousness, that uh, my heart\u2019s broke and my body is pretty well scarred.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>I don\u2019t uh, you know, like I haven\u2019t really talked (unintelligible as someone knocks) to anybody else, I haven\u2019t talked to anybody else or (unintelligible as people talk to newcomers)\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>But still the questions have to be asked. Everybody\u2019s told us that\u2014 Grace [Stoen] told us with tears in her eyes, “What I\u2019ve put you through, I\u2019ll never hurt you.” She said she\u2019d never hurt me. But she has. She\u2019s got a court<\/i> order. She has.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Well, I can understand your point, because it\u2019s difficult\u2014 (unintelligible as voice fades)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(unintelligible phrase) \u2014and win<\/i> them. But a newspaper<\/i>\u2014\u00a0our newspaper, to try to unite the left, I would think that that would be at least a conscientious thing one should attempt to do, is to try<\/i>. It didn\u2019t work, but you should try, before you (unintelligible as furniture moved) operational base as a\u2014 a facility too? Help in Africa is also going to get a facility to get some people clear<\/i>. That\u2019s what I have been doing, getting things clear for others to be able to get (unintelligible word) political prisoners, not just Peoples Temple. It\u2019s fantastically influential on these youngsters, they all get their lives straightened out. Is that\u2014 Certainly<\/i> one needs to continue to raise money<\/i>. We have to raise money<\/i> in order to do a damn<\/i> thing. (Pause) So you (unintelligible word) you do anything you could to raise money. (Pause) You can\u2019t know the disappointment that I feel with you. You just can\u2019t know that. Then I have to make projections from that. Whose snitch (unintelligible phrase)?<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>I don\u2019t know. I always tell my (unintelligible)\u2014 When I felt depressed, or really depressed, and this is probably general (tape edit?), there is usually somebody that leaves. You know, that\u2014 as a rule, but see\u2014 I didn\u2019t leave out of depression, (voice too soft for rest of sentence).<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>What\u2014 what\u2014 what\u2014<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>I didn\u2019t want to leave<\/i> now. So, I wasn\u2019t leaving out of depression<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Jones and Ben talk over each other.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>When I\u2014 When I finally decided, you know\u2014 This is what you were going to do.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>You thought you were trapped into Guyana, you mean.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(unintelligible phrase) That\u2019s a shame. (Stumbles over words) I think your logic\u2014 (unintelligible as microphone moved) I think you\u2019re logically, no, we couldn\u2019t operate here, without an operator here.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>That\u2019s\u2014\u00a0that\u2019s what I would\u2019ve thought too<\/i>, but that\u2019s why I couldn\u2019t actually\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones and Ben talk over each other.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Because I had faith in you\u2014 because I had faith in you to (unintelligible), set up a (unintelligible word) in headquarters, uh, that would, you know, that would\u2014 I knew it would be done jo\u2014\u00a0your jobs are done well. And Al seems insecure about (unintelligible phrase, too soft).<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>I know<\/i> he\u2019s been doing it for so long, I don\u2019t understand why (unintelligible as furniture moved)<\/p>\n

Deep-voiced Man: <\/b>But even\u2014 even you had to come\u2014 When we was over there, you had to come turn it, you know, we got the fucker up, but you had to come turn it.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Yeah\u2014<\/p>\n

Deep-voiced Man: <\/b>So it gets the (unintelligible as things moved). We still don\u2019t which way to turn the shit.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Well, it\u2019s just a matter\u2014 I can write all\u2014 I\u2014 He knows. He has to know whether he\u2019s taking it on or not, I mean, I told him this is how (unintelligible word) antenna essentially and turn it the right way. He put that big one up now, though.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>He said there no way to get the antenna in there.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Pardon me?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>He said there\u2019s no way to get the antenna in there. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Well, we can take the antenna over on air freight\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Pardon me?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>How long will that be?<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Ah, it\u2019ll go over there fast<\/i>. I don\u2019t know how long it takes\u2014 (unintelligible as things moved)<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>You think this, uh, take it into the airlines 48 hours before your departure.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Right, right. You have to have 48 hours before (unintelligible as voice fades)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>But you know, (unintelligible word), you must<\/i> have realized that, when you\u2019re talking with government people, we anticipated that the government, when we saw this\u2014 and this\u2014 (unintelligible word) nice home, (unintelligible word) bedroom, apartment below for different people. We\u2014 We anticipated that somebody might from their FC\u2014 their FCC, whatever it is, uh, uh, commu\u2014 communication control, might ask questions. Al doesn\u2019t know an abominable thing to answer question (unintelligible as furniture moved). Paula\u2019ll try, but she just don\u2019t know this business at all<\/i>, and Al acquiesces. Under pressure, he just seems to\u2014 He does<\/i> know, and he does a good job, at least he\u2019s knowledgeable on the ham radio, but he\u2014 he just doesn\u2019t have the confidence to talk to anybody. \u2018Cause we\u2019re doing something that\u2019s technically all right, but it\u2019s uh, the zoning say no. We\u2014 We got a stamp of approval, and we can put the thing up, but we obviously expected somebody might want to come by and see we\u2019re\u2014\u00a0just out of interest<\/i>. Just talking about\u2014 I thought with a job like you have, which is always the death of anyone, it\u2019s a job that\u2014 It brings in money, and then you feel you\u2019re part of the system. But it hurts<\/i>, son. It hurts more than you can possibly know. And I\u2019ve got to project a long range plan<\/i>. I\u2019d die in the streets. That\u2014 That\u2019s why I ask you these questions. These questions are hi\u2014 These questions are harder to me. You\u2019re leaving this organization you chose\u2014<\/p>\n

Phone rings. General milling.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I\u2014 I am surprised you want to pull out of the only\u2014 only thing that gives meaning in life. Is there some love affair or something? What is it?<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>No.<\/p>\n

Phone rings. General milling. Pause for several seconds.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Who is?<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>For me? Just tell her I\u2019ll call her back.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(unintelligible name: “Marsha”?)<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>I\u2019ll call her back.<\/p>\n

General milling<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Thank you. We got to calculate human beings. I can\u2019t think of myself as a mutation. If I\u2019m a mutation\u2014 if I\u2019m the only one that\u2019ll give and suffer and die, (unintelligible word as things moved) then I have to die<\/i>. If nobody else is going to\u2014 You said the thing that hurt very much, is that I didn\u2019t think you were coming back, so you left.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Well, it wasn\u2019t that. I mean, it wasn\u2019t because I didn\u2019t think you were coming back that I left. I mean, had you been right here, I woulda left. (Pause) I mean, that\u2014 that didn\u2019t\u2014 that didn\u2019t\u2014 because I didn\u2019t\u2014 (unintelligible phrase) \u2014you were deserting us.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Hmm?<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>I didn\u2019t think you were deserting us.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>No, I\u2019d hardly think<\/i> so. You ought to have known I left under the most ominous type of threats, but threats that do not now have much meaning, as long as there\u2019s solidarity<\/i> by some people. I built up quite a network<\/i>. I have quite\u2014 quite a bit of connections, quite a bit of contacts. I wouldn\u2019t be able to find out where you<\/i> are. I mean, the idea that I shouldn\u2019t find out where you are would be (unintelligible as things moved). We need to know what they\u2019re up to. (Deliberate phrase) In view of the past<\/i>. These people are not shadowed (unintelligible word). Only when they start stuff. We\u2019ve never done anything to anybody. We\u2019re not a\u2014\u00a0a\u2014\u00a0A true<\/i> socialist is not a vengeful person. They\u2019re pragmatic<\/i>\u2014 They\u2019re pragmatists. They face only the one thing, is the survival of all the people who depend upon us for life (unintelligible word), from Zaire to South Africa to Chile, to those precious children that are over there in the middle of that jungle, building what\u2019s to me\u2014\u00a0and what you haven\u2019t seen in some time. I think you might maybe have decided your life\u2019s going to be rather empty<\/i>, compared to what\u2019s happening there. But you\u2014 you\u2019ve got to take\u2014 Every person who\u2019s been in that configuration, (unintelligible phrase as things moved). And I would think that\u2019d be logical<\/i> to you. Because a person said today, they\u2019re with you, they don\u2019t want to do any harm, they just want to leave, we don\u2019t bother them. We don\u2019t probe them. But then two weeks later, they start some action. We have never<\/i> initiated any action against anybody. Not once. Never once. The action\u2019s always been (unintelligible as things moved)\u2014 You slept too much. If\u2014 If you listen<\/i>, you always heard that everything we discussed where somebody did<\/i> something. (Pause) Now I have to tap your mind (unintelligible phrase), how can a person be a socialist, how can they be a sacrificial, hard worker and then suddenly give it up, and be back into the system? You must know how crushing that is on my\u2014 my whole\u2014 my being.<\/p>\n

Woman and Jones speak over each other. Pause.<\/p>\n

Another male:<\/b> Any response? (Pause) Any response? (Pause)<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Um\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Question, is what he means, that I just asked you. How do you\u2014 How do you make these adjustments to go back into the system? (Pause) What is it you want out of the system? You said you\u2019d\u2014<\/p>\n

Ben and Jones talk over each other<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Um\u2014 I\u2019m not\u2014 (Pause)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I remember everything, I nearly died<\/i> when I heard it. That\u2019s how much it affected us.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>I don\u2019t have any great (unintelligible word)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, why do you\u2014 what do you want in<\/i> there then, son? Well, why do you want\u2014 Did you believe in me\u2014<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>I\u2014 It\u2019s just that I have\u2014 I guess I want independence. I guess that\u2019s what I want. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Whoever\u2019s freed anybody, son? Whoever freed anyone by hedonistic indifference? Who, with anarchy, ever did a damn thing for a soul? I\u2014 I\u2014 Like a classic anarchist myself, I hate<\/i> the system, but I\u2014 but you can\u2019t replace it with anarchism. It takes organization to replace it.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>I guess I\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Where did you see me misuse power? Where do you see it? Where do you see it?<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>I didn\u2019t say you misuse power.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, then, what do\u2014 My God, isn\u2019t it then significant that you\u2019re not identifying with the\u2014 the blacks<\/i>, the people that\u2019ve been drug out of jail, that crippled little boy accused in this city of shooting police\u2014 at police, and body been broken and\u2014 and uh, distorted, uh, Melvin Charles is, is his name, Melvin\u2019s brother. The police wanted to get him off, or get him off, and the judge who, with a long lecture\u2014 he sent him over to the Promised Land. But police meet him up the street and said, don\u2019t let us see your face again, or something\u2019ll happen to you. Do you feel involved<\/i> with the pride<\/i> of freeing people like that? Or (unintelligible first name\u2014 “Talia”?) Johnson, who was\u2014 was running around in\u2014 in clothes, in transvestite with no purpose, and reeking\u2014 freaking out, head of a whole garden and is as responsible as could be, like a rock of Gibraltar? And just go on down the list. But there\u2019s Kenny\u2014 even Kenny, the most sordid amongst them, a deviate, a child molester, but who made him a child molester? The fuckin\u2019 white system. It never makes a black person feel his self. (Pause) Where have you been philosophically? You see, I have to have great trust in that special love for you. Where have you been?<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>I think uh\u2014 (Pause) I don\u2019t know, I\u2019m kind of a nihilist. Whatever that is\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, explain.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Just pessimistic. Like I feel whatever\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, I am too, son.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>\u2014happens mostly happens purely by accident. But I think if you work very very very very hard, and you happen to get a\u2014 purely accident that happens your way to really change things. Apart from that, I think that things more or less stay the way they are.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>How did you stay here being a nihilist? Have you been to Cuba lately?<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>No.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>And you call yourself a nihilist in Cuba?<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Um, I don\u2019t know what a nihilist is (unintelligible word). I mean a person who just basically\u2014 I guess I\u2019m just really a pessimist, if you want.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>But\u2014 but my God<\/i>, with two out of three babies going to bed hungry, you don\u2019t even want to just take those chances? We\u2019ll take our chances on those people being tortured while we\u2019re sitting here? (Pause) We can\u2019t do that<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>I\u2014 (Pause)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>That\u2019s all right. Go ahead, have a dialogue, I\u2019m rea\u2014 I\u2019m only making projections from you.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>I don\u2019t claim to have\u2014 you know, I don\u2019t have perfect empathy\u2014 (Jones talks over)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I would\u2014 I would hope that I could\u2014 I could\u2014 I could hope\u2014 I could hope with all the hope in the world that you\u2019d change your mind. But that\u2019s not the primary reason I\u2019m probing you.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Okay. Well, that\u2019s\u2014 Yeah. I feel like uh\u2014 (Pause) I\u2019m willing to have a dialogue with you so that you can (Pause) understand me maybe a little bit better, but I don\u2019t really feel I\u2019m open to make a decision otherwise. I\u2014 I feel that the most likely<\/i> thing that make me connect or reconsider or really start working through this (unintelligible word) would be uh, to go out for six months and uh, then just be truly bored<\/i>. And I think that would make me come back.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, I hope so. I\u2019ve never seen anybody that ever happened to you before.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Well, I\u2019m not\u2014 I\u2019m not expecting<\/i> you to be, you know, happy, basically.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>No, I\u2019ve never seen it happen<\/i> to anybody. For us<\/i>. I wish I could see some people who\u2019d seen the system and come back. But their pride won\u2019t let them (unintelligible with movement in room).<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>I\u2019m not necessarily\u2014 I\u2014 (Pause) I\u2014 I\u2014 You know, I can see positive role (unintelligible word). I\u2019d rather know it. I\u2014 To me, it\u2019s premature to talk about anything.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>What do you mean, (unintelligible) at this juncture?<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>I mean, I don\u2019t (unintelligible word)\u2014 I mean, there are ways that I can work or help Peoples Temple. Small ways, that might be a little help.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, what kind of thing do you have in mind?<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Well, I don\u2019t\u2014 you know, I don\u2019t have anything particular in mind. (unintelligible phrase)<\/p>\n

Deep-voiced Man: <\/b>(unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, he\u2019s already said he couldn\u2019t handle the radio. Didn\u2019t\u2014 Didn\u2019t you say that?<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Pardon me?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Didn\u2019t you say you could already handle the radio problem?<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>(Laughs) I\u2014 I don\u2019t know whether I can handle the radio problem. It depends on\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>You mean\u2014<\/p>\n

Another male: <\/b>What works\u2014 See, we\u2019re (unintelligible word)\u2014 If it answers, you gotta listen to us, great, we can have the radio (unintelligible under movement), we\u2019re not going to do any business over it, we\u2019re not going to (unintelligible under movement)\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>They didn\u2019t uh, they didn\u2019t seem to be worried about content. Did he say that to you? Did he say it to you?<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>To me, it\u2019s very funny, if the FCC can suddenly come out here and with\u2014 and investigate on site. That is, you know, not right.<\/p>\n

Another male: <\/b>They had gotten a lot of complaints because of the\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Interference\u2014<\/p>\n

Several people speak<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>It\u2019s smart for them to ascertain that, but I mean basically\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Can you do anything to mask that up there\u2014<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>(Sighs) If I had the (unintelligible name) manual, I couldn\u2019t find the manual (unintelligible word).<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(Under breath) Oh, God. (Normal tone) Here\u2019s the thing, son. That they\u2014 they apparently<\/i> were here for the\u2014 the usual diabolical intrigue, but (unintelligible word) letters, and the personal handwritten letter from Mrs. Carter blew their minds<\/i>, so they got off the substance of the thing and all the other\u2014 just all they were worried about was the power<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Well, that\u2019s why\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Allegedly. I think\u2014 I think they\u2019ve been after us ever since we championed Unita May Blackwell Wright, when quite likely they were here and not<\/i> to, to uh, uh tap her, because anybody could do that without being out there with a little black satchel. Probably kill her. So I know the deviousness of the bastards. But they think we\u2019ve probably got too much of a hold<\/i>. That\u2019s the only reason the FBI<\/i> doesn\u2019t move in me for certain things. The only reason why the (stumbles over words) printer pushout, they\u2014 In immigration, they burn up, they want to arrest so badly. But they can\u2019t arrest, because they\u2019re afraid of a bunch of angry niggers in the streets. That\u2019s the whole basic thing in a nutshell. And that\u2019s why when everybody who goes out, it weakens that thing. Group<\/i> solidarity is the only thing that can stand up to fascism. Jews\u2014 Jews who did<\/i> survive. Elements of socialism in [Adolf] Hitler\u2019s Germany did survive. Even to the last. But when you break, you break your solidarity, you have no\u2014 Uh, you can\u2019t\u2014 So I\u2019ll have to make projections based on moves like yours, and I keep seeing these moves, every two, three months, a person that\u2019s been at some meeting\u2014 been a long time since (unintelligible word) your meeting, though. A long time that I\u2019ve been (unintelligible word under movement) like this.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>I just burn out. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, it always helped me to realize I didn\u2019t have the right<\/i> to burn out. That\u2019s all that I\u2014 kept me going. I get tired and weary and (unintelligible word), awful and frequently and (unintelligible word) every night and every day. Hostile<\/i>. \u2018Cause I\u2019m just exactly like all the rest of you. You keep very clear in my mind, some people who\u2019ll\u2014 I\u2019ve never had that opportunity<\/i> to burn out. And I may burn<\/i> out, but I\u2019m not going to give<\/i> out. Because that\u2019s a terrible feeling, to feel that you let people down. That\u2019s what I felt I woulda done if I had stayed there. Sure<\/i>, I wouldn\u2019t be in jail, and I didn\u2019t care about going to jail in the first place. I thought it would be organizationally unsound<\/i> for me to risk going to jail, because I\u2019m still quite influential in this movement. But I\u2014 I couldn\u2019t\u2014 I didn\u2019t\u2014 Our people would have never understood if I hadn\u2019t have come back in these kinds of situations. Even per\u2014 perhaps some here<\/i> wouldn\u2019t have understood it. They wouldn\u2019t understand it. But I had to take the personal risk\u2014 I\u2019d rather take that risk than risk letting anybody down. And even if I let most painful, unless I\u2019ve totally miscalculated, (unintelligible word) let somebody down that needs you, trusted you, or believed in you. I don\u2019t know what there is in life. I\u2019ve tried it all. Never being able to do anything for myself<\/i>. Glad to go, with everything I own, I\u2019ve got my body or mind. And still I know what\u2019s out there. You learn vicariously. I don\u2019t know what possibly for you to enjoy (unintelligible phrase) lived in the system, hobnobbed with all those assholes in this city. For this cause, you see. There\u2019s nothing there. So what\u2019s the difference? Pain is pain. Why not be painfully loyal, rather than painfully dissident?<\/p>\n

(Movement of furniture)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(unintelligible under movement) \u2014nihilist. Sitting here as a nihilist, I wonder how many others\u2014<\/p>\n

(People move, commotion)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Don\u2019t do that, don\u2019t do that, don\u2019t do that.<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>Chaikin [presumably Gene Chaikin]. Chaikin.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Um, Dee\u2019s having a little\u2014 little problem and that was the only reason um\u2014<\/p>\n

Deep-voiced Man: <\/b>Dee?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Dee. She\u2019s having a little problem (unintelligible phrase), we\u2019ve asked that uh, talk with some people (unintelligible phrase)<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>Sure.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>\u2014try to explain it, \u2018cause I think they need explanations. (Movement) Anyway. So uh\u2014 (Pause) You don\u2019t think there\u2019s any way to\u2014\u00a0for the radio to sur\u2014 to survive. What time is it?<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>It\u2019s\u2014<\/p>\n

Another male: <\/b>Quarter to ten.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I can\u2019t<\/i> survive without communications.<\/p>\n

(Movement; people talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>\u2014mission and have a few things, and we said, well, the people do business, and they said what we said, and they said, we<\/i> know that. We know that. Uh\u2014 So they didn\u2019t seem to argue at that<\/i> point on. And God, if he\u2019d been monitoring for two weeks, he\u2019d heard it all\u2014 most\u2014 same kind of codes<\/i>. So uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Male:<\/b> We could not challenge this on the content. In other words, (unintelligible under movement). I was surprised, because I always thought it was one of (unintelligible phrase), they were going to bust us on the content and we would\u2019ve been in deeper trouble<\/i>. I was shocked that\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>He would\u2014 he would\u2019ve, except there\u2019s that letter from Mrs. Carter saying she thanks me for what I\u2019m trying to do in Cuba. And they don\u2019t know what the hell to think<\/i>. They may think the whole government\u2019s going communist, but that\u2019s not what she was really saying<\/i>. She was really<\/i> saying, uh, I think it\u2019s good that you tried to get hospital equipment into Cuba<\/i>. I was trying to get a commitment from her (unintelligible word), (stumbles over words) she can open certain\u2014 certain doors in the Caribbean. And that handwritten letter, which we didn\u2019t expect<\/i> to get, was very helpful<\/i>, from the president\u2019s wife. It\u2019s been helpful ever since we got it.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Well, if we keep our power (unintelligible under movement) train signal, and uh, identify.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Yeah. What bothers me slightly is this uh, false signal, this false signal.<\/p>\n

Man: <\/b>Worth shifting to valley.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Shift to the valley?<\/p>\n

Man: <\/b>Use that (unintelligible word) antenna up there.<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>They shift to the valley at the same time.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>They do?<\/p>\n

(Several people talk)<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> They\u2014 they went in there, and same time they came in here.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Well, I\u2019m sure they know about it. That\u2019s what (unintelligible under movement). But uh, as far as them listening\u2014\u00a0see, that\u2019s what they asked<\/i> me about, that\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, nobody\u2019s ever told me this little bit of information.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>No, that\u2014 that\u2019s why I didn\u2019t want to\u2014 That\u2019s\u2014 I was (unintelligible word) down in the first<\/i> place, because we got, you know, I mean, you know, probably a thousand ham radio operators right here within our primary signal area, which is about 10 miles. And we got an umbrella area which\u2014 They can probably hear us in L.A., but uh, if we\u2019re up in the valley, they\u2014 the only people who can hear us there are like 20 or 30 miles\u2014 (Jones talks over him)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I never heard this. I never heard this. Never once. Well, you can see how vital communications are. We have to have no communi\u2014 communications, since I had to rush all that\u2014 that jungle, we\u2019ve had no communications since the day of the (unintelligible word).<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Did they say not to operate (unintelligible word)?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Yes.<\/p>\n

Several people talk, microphone moved.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>What\u2019s happening?<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Well, I was\u2014 I kinda\u2014 I was\u2014\u00a0he never said that to me on the phone<\/i>. And I was surprised that he didn\u2019t call.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, I suspect he\u2019s probably\u2014 that he\u2019s probably learned more (unintelligible, as movement recurs)<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>I was surprised that they came\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Did you see it? Do you know the letter? Do you know the letter?<\/p>\n

Man: <\/b>No, I haven\u2019t seen the letter.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>I\u2019ve seen the letter.<\/p>\n

Several people talk, microphone moved.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>(Speaks too far away from mike) \u2014came to pick it up. And then they send you another slip saying, you\u2019ve had a second\u2014 a pink<\/i> one, that says you\u2019ve had a second offense, and then if it\u2019s really<\/i> bad, and you fail to comply, sometimes when they shake your (unintelligible word)\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>If they\u2014 they wanted to do us in, they\u2019d have arrested you, they\u2019d have arrested everybody on<\/i> that radio. Of course<\/i>, we know that. I\u2019m not doubting, you\u2019ve made your (unintelligible word). They won\u2019t arrest us. (Pause) But that letter, even as innocuous as it is, makes\u2014 it makes for nervousness<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Especially when it starts out, “Dear Jim.” He could have easily said, “Dear Reverend Jones.” But, looks like there\u2019s a close personal friendship there.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Let me see it again, so I can know what we\u2019re talking about\u2014 (voice fades)<\/p>\n

Man: <\/b>So we\u2019re going to tell them we don\u2019t have any long (unintelligible word) violation?<\/p>\n

People talk over each other<\/p>\n

Man: <\/b>(unintelligible phrase) I\u2014 I had throwed it up the (unintelligible word) last two weeks, because then it\u2019s\u2014 Since they\u2019ve been monitoring\u2014 (unintelligible phrase) Basically, we\u2019d have\u2014 we need to have (unintelligible word) at 5:30 and 2:30.<\/p>\n

Movements. People talk over each other<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>What are you saying? How we would do it without lying, if they\u2019re monitoring? It\u2019s (unintelligible word) we can say. If they really monitor us, we\u2019ll\u2014 I don\u2019t want to put you in jeopardy, you\u2019re the one that\u2019s in jeopardy (voice fades).<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>You know, I was\u2014 I don\u2019t intend to\u2014 I think it\u2019s foolishness to say, well this is the log, and it\u2019s totally accurate. You know, I just say, well, I went back over the\u2014 over the (voice fades), but I just haven\u2019t kept it up, like I should have\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>That\u2019s why I question why we shouldn\u2019t lose it. It was my idea to lose it. But you say not to. And I trust your judgment. Things in writing can damage you. What you put down there becomes\u2014 if these people turn and change their mind and want to go after us, which I\u2019m afraid\u2014 I\u2014 I\u2019m afraid that\u2019s down the road<\/i>, undoubtedly, but I don\u2019t know the way it is right now, because of their attitude<\/i>, (unintelligible word) attitude<\/i>. So that doesn\u2019t indicate to me that they want to\u2014 they got the legal, uh, criminal sanction<\/i> against us. They<\/i> even said, if you were here, and uh\u2014 as I understood it, now if the people correct me if I\u2019m wrong, that\u2014 that you were here and the power was all right, they wouldn\u2019t even cite<\/i> you, whatever that means, what “cite” means, that just means\u2014 that\u2019s\u2014 that\u2019s a civil way\u2014 that\u2019s a civil way, that\u2019s all.<\/p>\n

Man: <\/b>There are sanctions against them, but I don\u2019t\u2014 I mean, I don\u2019t know how they do it with all the citations.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>The sanctions for a false entry are more severe than making none at all. I mean, from a technical (unintelligible under movement).<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Anything that you put in writing is just evidence<\/i>. It\u2019s just right there for<\/i> them. If that\u2019s accurate. (Pause) Then we always have to deal with the paranoid possibility that they\u2019re just playing with us, you know. They want to get more information<\/i> from us.<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>What\u2019d they say when you talked to Ruth?<\/p>\n

Man: <\/b>They said uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Another man: <\/b>What happened was that Ben uh\u2014 how come it\u2014 said we couldn\u2019t understand it. There you were, and we were listening. You know, we heard your signal, you knocked on the door, and all of a sudden, the signal disappeared, and they said you just left. It made us awful<\/i> suspicious, Ben.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>I said, well I was uh\u2014 I said it was because (unintelligible sentence about being sick)\u2014 I always came to back on welfare.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Is that consistent with what you said about him, that he was sick?<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>No, they said\u2014 I told them, I said, that I had, you know, I would just leave something, because (unintelligible under movement), but actually, I thought it was different, so maybe not so bad.<\/p>\n

Another Woman: <\/b>I told them that you got (voice fades to softness)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, I hope your nihilism\u2014 it\u2019d be interesting if your nihilism and my socialism put us in the same cell. (Laughs) I was laughing, but you think about it, you may\u2014 you may get a chance enough to be bored. Christ, I don\u2019t give a shit anymore.<\/p>\n

Man: <\/b>This cite basically (unintelligible under movement) just to test his will. And he\u2019ll go back, and make a report to this\u2014 these two guys that were there before that (unintelligible under movement)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(unintelligible under movement) \u2014what\u2019s going to happen then.<\/p>\n

Man: <\/b>(unintelligible) If the signal\u2019s clear, then they\u2019ll probably say, write us a letter, and\u2014 you know, with the citation is what I\u2019m saying, you\u2019re given a warning. But they\u2019re going to be nice, you know, that you\u2019ve been\u2014 your signal\u2019s unclear, and if you got two weeks to get your signal straightened out, and then uh\u2014 See, there may be something wrong\u2014 They\u2019re ah\u2014 To me, there must be something wrong<\/i> with it, I\u2014 I don\u2019t know. I\u2019m anxious to see if this guy comes up with anything with his equipment.<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>Something wrong with the\u2014 what?<\/p>\n

Man: <\/b>With the signal, yeah.<\/p>\n

Man: <\/b>He said it was uh, broadcasting (voice fades)<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>Ten K\u2014<\/p>\n

Man: <\/b>Ten KC\u2019s? Well, it\u2019s too bad. That\u2019s not the way it\u2019s supposed to do, and that\u2019s certainly one reason (unintelligible phrase)\u2014<\/p>\n

People talk over each other<\/p>\n

Man: <\/b>\u2018Cause that\u2019s what that other guy wrote two weeks ago, was that we were in (unintelligible as voice fades)<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>He said the antenna\u2014 Because of the antenna had some areas that were (unintelligible word)\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> He said it wasn\u2019t the best installation he had seen.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>He said it wasn\u2019t?<\/p>\n

People talk over each other<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Well maybe\u2014 I don\u2019t know. We\u2019ll just have to see.<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>(unintelligible as she breaks in) \u2014do a\u2014\u00a0a log book there, you know.<\/p>\n

People talk over each other<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> It just disappeared, you know. Kids running in and out. Could have left the door open.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Yeah, I could say I\u2014<\/p>\n

People talk over each other.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>They could use that at some other time. Even though now, they see our power, they do not want to. Nine months later\u2014 I don\u2019t know what the statute is for this. Probably, what, two, three years?<\/p>\n

Man: <\/b>Three years.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>So later<\/i>, they\u2019ve got something in writing. That\u2019s why I don\u2019t want for you people to keep things in writing. The argument should be\u2014 here that we\u2019ve been praised by the mayor, the Senators, what we\u2019re doing is getting troubled people off the streets, and it\u2019s perfectly fantastic, we got the literature here, read this and (unintelligible phrase), say, we have<\/i> to have communications, but\u2014 but we were told by different officials, and we have (unintelligible phrase), it won\u2019t matter, they\u2019re not that strict about it in the FCC, here the people can talk on the\u2014 on the thing, there\u2019s not that much of a problem. I mean there isn\u2019t<\/i> any problem. I\u2019d put it that way. And so, we<\/i> didn\u2019t\u2014 all we were concerned about was getting things\u2014 non-profit, obviously, as a church\u2014\u00a0we\u2014 we\u2014 things that needed, medical supplies, we stopped gastroenteritis, I hope you\u2019re listening, in that whole area, which we have. That\u2019s a fact, and we document it. By our supplies and equipment and some natural remedies. There\u2019s no more kids dying in our<\/i> area of gastroenteritis. So the thing\u2014 the human thing\u2014 not to try to talk savvy to you, being highly sophisticated. I\u2019d just make that kind of approach. (Pause) When are they\u2014 When\u2014 Will you notify when they\u2019re coming in?<\/p>\n

Man: <\/b>Yeah, is there something wrong with it?<\/p>\n

(Reply too soft)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>They know who (unintelligible word) rapping at the door.<\/p>\n

Man: <\/b>He said uh, boy, that place is like Fort Knox. He said\u2014\u00a0as I understand it, it\u2019s been tried to be bur\u2014 it\u2019s been burned down a couple of times.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>He said you said that?<\/p>\n

Man: <\/b>I<\/i> didn\u2019t say it. You<\/i> did.<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>You told him that when they came here.<\/p>\n

Man: <\/b>You told him that he said, oh, you got a lot of security, and somebody said, well, you know, we\u2019ve had the church burn down, and so (unintelligible word) concerns us.<\/p>\n

Man: <\/b>They may monitor and not tape, they may be so inefficient.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, let\u2019s hope that\u2019s been the case. What\u2019s bothering me is these call signals. Huh? What bothers me is the call signals, that we\u2014 they\u2014 they didn\u2019t mention that to you either, did they?<\/p>\n

Man: <\/b>(unintelligible phrase) \u2014monitoring for two weeks, and for a while there, you weren\u2019t even called<\/i> for that. Or you weren\u2019t identifying, or something.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>So they\u2019ve missed\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> They may have missed\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(unintelligible word) of the paranormal again.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> It\u2019s very possible.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Well, they\u2019re in a hard place\u2014<\/p>\n

People talk over each other<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>If they can miss\u2014 If they could miss\u2014\u00a0If they could miss those call signals, they\u2019d really have to\u2014 Something\u2019s working with us at least for a little while.<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>Maybe\u2014 it says here\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>\u2018Cause those call signals are in choke, choke, choke\u2014 We just choke them with those call signals. Well, I already\u2014 I already stopped (unintelligible word), four days before they come in. (Pause) \u2018Cause Tim Stoen thought we ought to give \u2018em a call signal. He thought a call signal there, then go along without anything. (unintelligible sentence)<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> No, that doesn\u2019t make sense, really.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(same unintelligible) \u2014So I already\u2014<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Yeah, if they can\u2019t\u2014 if you\u2019re looking\u2014\u00a0If you figure they\u2019re not going to come after you for three months, then that\u2019s fine. Uh, obviously, they don\u2019t operate that way. (Pause) It\u2019s just (unintelligible phrase).<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I wish I had known about the umbrella.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Hmm?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I wish I had known about the umbrella. In Los Angeles, you\u2019d be in the same position, I suppose.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Right. They\u2019d be able to hear you like 20\u2014 20 miles\u2014<\/p>\n

Man: <\/b>You were saying they could hear us, they were picking us up in Washington.<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Yes, so you get an umbrella effect to like\u2014 It can be like 20, maybe 100 miles\u2014 After you go out 20 miles and after you\u2014 and then after like 100 miles out, you get dead air, and then after that, the signal starts to come back down (unintelligible under movement). They probably come\u2014\u00a0They probably come like gangbusters then. (unintelligible phrase) They said in Washington\u2014<\/p>\n

People talk over each other<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>Did you see anything else that they might bring up that we haven\u2019t talked about, or should think about?<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>Uh\u2014 I don\u2019t know. I\u2019m not up on the regulations they have\u2014 See, we\u2019re not licensed at this location. (unintelligible phrase) secondary\u2014\u00a0primary<\/i> location is up in Redwood Valley, but I just moved down here, and uh, I haven\u2019t got around to applying for a primary station location down here, because I\u2019m not sure\u2014 (unintelligible phrase under movement)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, wha\u2014 what\u2019d you have in mind (unintelligible phrase)<\/p>\n

Ben: <\/b>That\u2019s what I was going to say<\/i>. Because they don\u2019t have<\/i> to\u2014 I don\u2019t have<\/i> to uh\u2014 If this is a secondary station location, I don\u2019t have to give them any written notice of it. And I don\u2019t have to get a separate call sign for it (unintelligible under movement), so I can still\u2014 still primary station location in Redwood Valley, and this is secondary location.<\/p>\n

People talk over each other.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, I think you better show them that too. You can talk afterwards in there, because I\u2019d like to have more dialogue with you to get<\/i> my bearings, me when I\u2019m back here, know to what I\u2019m doing here. (Pause) Things are happening over there.<\/p>\n

End of tape<\/strong><\/p>\n

Tape originally posted April 2002<\/b><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you. To return to the Tape Index, click here. To listen to MP3, click here. To read the Tape Summary, click here. (Note: This tape was one of the 53 tapes initially withheld from public disclosure.) Part […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":6,"featured_media":0,"parent":27291,"menu_order":450,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-27533","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27533","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/6"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=27533"}],"version-history":[{"count":6,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27533\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":60165,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27533\/revisions\/60165"}],"up":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27291"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=27533"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}