{"id":27534,"date":"2013-06-16T00:20:52","date_gmt":"2013-06-16T00:20:52","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/alternativejonestown.com\/?page_id=27534"},"modified":"2014-04-05T23:23:54","modified_gmt":"2014-04-05T23:23:54","slug":"q679","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=27534","title":{"rendered":"Q679 Transcript"},"content":{"rendered":"

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee, III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.<\/strong><\/i><\/p>\n

To return to the Tape Index, click here<\/a>. To listen to MP3, click here<\/a>.
\nTo read the Tape Summary, click here<\/a>.<\/p>\n

(Note<\/strong>: This tape was one of the 53 tapes initially withheld from public disclosure.)
\n<\/em>
\nPart 1: Radio interview with Jim Jones<\/strong><\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Tomorrow morning about five o\u2019clock. Just tell us about that.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes, we feel very concerned about this, uh, this thing that\u2019s in the Fresno Four. Uh, we feel it\u2019s the beginning of crippling of the press. And we saw no other group taking action, so we felt we could use our (unintelligible phrase), and anyone is welcome to call, if they will, it\u2019s 922-6418. (Softly) Uh, no, sorry. (unintelligible phrase) \u2014broadcasting two weeks ahead.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Oh, I see.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> \u2014cut me\u2014 We\u2019ll cut me off. Start me with\u2014<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

2nd male:<\/b> Mike, could we re\u2014 react the tape?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I know what I\u2019m doing.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> \u2018S okay.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Oh, no, th\u2014 you were going to play that today, though, weren\u2019t you? We were going to u\u2014 use this on today\u2019s news?<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> If he wants to do it again, we can do it again. \u2018S okay. We[\u2018ll] use it tomorrow morning, too.<\/p>\n

2nd male:<\/b> Yeah, see, this segment\u2014 this segment will go for today.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Oh, I\u2014 I see, I see.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> This\u2019ll play tomo\u2014 this afternoon and tomorrow morning.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Oh\u2014 That\u2019s why\u2014 I was play\u2014 playing for two weeks, and thinking, what the hell am I doing?<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Don\u2019t think of the time frame at all, okay? Through\u2014 through editing, you know, playing with your voice, and taking a little different (tape edit) tomorrow. Okay.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes, we\u2019re concerned about the\u2014 the\u2014 the status of the Fresno Four. Uh, it seems um, a restriction<\/i> on the press that we can\u2019t tolerate. Uh, if\u2014 if<\/i> people have to give their sources, how is anyone going to come out if they uh, uh, (mumbles)\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> He\u2019s been up all night. (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> It\u2019s started, yeah\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Two nights.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Two nights.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> \u2014as you can see my bloodshot eyes. Uh, let\u2019s start again. I think I know\u2014\u00a0Let\u2019s start again, then I\u2019ll be in better shape.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (unintelligible short sentence) Want to ask me the question again?<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Okay. The\u2014 Evidently you\u2019re going to be taking a bus ride tomorrow about five o\u2019clock in the morning, and be going out to Fresno. Why don\u2019t you tell us why?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes, we have a few hundred of Peoples Temple going, and we hope that others will respond also. They call our free legal su\u2014 services office at uh, 922-6418, area code 415. We\u2019re concerned about the status of the Fresno Four. Uh\u2014 We see this as the beginning of crippling of the press. If indeed [the] press has to give their<\/i> sources, uh, particularly<\/i> in reference to uh, problems of corruption in government and large corporations\u2014 as we\u2019ve seen recently, this gentleman who\u2019s\u2014 uh, Jack Anderson said had some information about the death of [former president] Jack Kennedy<\/i>, and we find him in Biscayne Bay in Florida in a tank, a tub, buried, uh, cemented to the bottom, and he happened to float up, we uh, we\u2019re very much concerned that we\u2014\u00a0that if we allow these types of infringements to begin, uh, we will not have<\/i> a free press. As I believe I read the other day, 98% of the world doesn\u2019t<\/i> have a free press at this time.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Yes. That\u2019s true. I was\u2014\u00a0I happened\u2014 One of the newsmen and I are constantly going out, running around and that we\u2019re\u2014\u00a0we\u2019re hoping to do someday \u2014\u00a0maybe in about six months \u2014 a sixty-minute show on freedom, and like, what\u2019s happened to it.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Good idea.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Yeah. We happen to have Harry Reames in, who uh, was convicted of his participation in Deep Throat<\/i>, but we see that as raising a very important social issue as to\u2014 we\u2019ll eventually deal with that someday, maybe we\u2019ll have you back. Jim, the first question, uh\u2014 I wanted to just ask you a couple of rapid-fire questions, and that is, how old are you?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I\u2019m 44\u2014<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Okay\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> \u2014One tries to forget at this time.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> How\u2014 how long have you been uh, within the religious community?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Very young. I started um, uh, almost a working minister at the beginning of college, since I was 18.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> I see, um\u2014 You\u2019ve graduated with theology degree of some sort, I assume?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes. (unintelligible under man\u2019s completion of question) Disciples of Christ. I\u2019m ordained with the Disciples of Christ, which is a comprehensive denomination of two million, we include the FBI director [Clarence M. Kelley], uh, [former President] Lyndon Baines Johnson family, several congressmen, both liberal and conservative, uh\u2014 Each church is autonomous\u2014<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> I see.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (unintelligible word) the framework.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> That\u2019s one of the things that I\u2019ve noticed about the Peoples Temple. Um, how long have you been in San Francisco?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Oh, years. I tend, as I say, to forget the years now. I guess we\u2019ve been here eight years.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> About eight years. Okay. Just wanted to get some of the preliminaries out of the way.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Sure.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> First question I wanted to ask you is, tell me about your<\/i> God. (Pause) Your God.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (unintelligible under question; could be “My God\u2014”) My God is Love<\/i>. I see Love, uh, God-Love to be interchangeable. I uh, I don\u2019t re\u2014 I don\u2019t personally uh, cope very well with the anthropomorphic concept of deity. I believe the highest worship to God, if there\u2019s indeed existence of God, a\u2014 a benevolent deity, would be uh, service to your fellow man.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> I see. So in other words, you tend to see the face of Christ himself in the people that you serve and work with.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> You\u2014 You verbalized it better than I.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Good. I have a theology minor at the University of Santa Clara<\/i>, so\u2014 I was going to be a Jesuit at one time. (Pause) There\u2019s been a movement on\u2014 I\u2014 I tend to just date it in my own mind, since uh, Pope John XXIII and Vatican II, and that the move that\u2019s going on of\u2014 of world ecumini\u2014 ecumenism, where the ev\u2014\u00a0the Catholic Church, which of course has been the most strict, is beginning to lower the barriers and beginning to communicate with other religions. You saw what happened in Philadelphia recently, where Episcopalians were invited, and rabbis and things like this. It seems to me there\u2019s a movement on, that religion no longer has to do with necessarily a church service at all, that it\u2019s moving out into<\/i> the community, it\u2019s getting involved with people on their<\/i> level, not within the church\u2019s level. Is that where the Peoples Temple is basically moving, or has moved?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> We hope so. We uh\u2014 As you may be familiar, we have free legal services and free medical facilities, uh, which includes diathermy, ultrasonic treatments, physical therapist under the auspices of\u2014 of Dr. [Carlton] Goodlett, who is, you know, is a publisher here. He\u2019s our clinical doctor. We feel<\/i> that, that a church must be human-service related. We have um, day care programs, uh, we give free meals, uh, we offer food from our commissary to people upon request as they come to us, we have even a woodshop connected with our shop, printing shop where the Peoples Forum<\/i>, you may or may not have seen it, through the community, to several thousands. I think we uh, distributed about 600,000. It\u2019s small, but we uh, keep it con\u2014 with\u2014\u00a0with issues, social issues, very much concerned about social issues. We have arts and crafts, and field trips and geriatric homes and a home for exceptional children, retarded children, uh, we give convalescent care to our members. Uh, we\u2014 we do see that it\u2019s very important to be practical, and I\u2019m heartened, uh, very heartened by what Pope John created. Uh, it seemed to be such a terrible misfortune, we only had him a few years, because he brought a spirit into the field of religion, the like of which I have never seen in my time.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Yeah. For sure. For sure. I don\u2019t think we\u2019ve seen it since<\/i>, either, if I might add that.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I concur.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Jim, you\u2019re involved in a\u2014 okay, free legal services, I know you\u2014 you\u2019ve been helping Vietnam veterans, old people and transportation, you\u2019re into just about every issue that I\u2019ve ever dealt<\/i> with in terms of public affairs programming here. No need to tell you that a good many of the problems that are involved with, dealing with people in these things is politics<\/i>, money<\/i>. That\u2019s where it all comes<\/i> from. I mean, on the local level, you have the mayor\u2019s office, the board. On the state, you have that bureaucracy, and federal\u2014 It\u2019s always been said that the church should be very much separated from the functions of the state. That<\/i> doesn\u2019t seem to be true anymore\u2014 Or does it? What\u2019s your own feeling about\u2014 How<\/i> involved should the church become in the community per se<\/i>?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, if the church becomes very much involved in partisan politics, it will lose its tax status. And I suspect that that\u2019s going to happen to a number. I\u2019ve read of some in our denomination, and there\u2019s a Catholic church that\u2019s been mery mu\u2014 very much involved in the farm workers\u2019 movement in the south, in the peninsula somewhere, has been in trouble with the tax department, because it\u2014 it\u2014 it\u2019s a very narrow description of what a church can<\/i> do. I disagree thoroughly. One tax uh, position in\u2014 in one department was uh, [the] church must confine itself to praying, singing and preaching. I would think that Jesus Christ would be disgraced by that. I\u2019m a devotee of Jesus Christ, and he was a humanist, an ethical humanist to me in every degree. His judgment of whether one had\u2014 was truly Christian, of the Judeo-Christian tradition, was whether one had fed the hungry, clothed the naked, taken in those that were homeless, and they\u2014 I think his brother James embodied pure religion undefiable before God was to minister to orphans and widows. I\u2014 I\u2014 I can\u2019t uh, understand how the church could be any other<\/i> than involved, but I don\u2019t think the church should be used as a\u2014 a political base to gain power, uh, for itself. If\u2014\u00a0if indeed, it can bring about change<\/i>, but not be involved in any particular political bloc. I am opposed to the church being involved with the state in that sense. I don\u2019t\u2014\u00a0I\u2014 I think, indeed, we\u2019ve had a historic precedent of separation of the church and state, and I think that\u2019s wise.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Um-hmm. Um-hmm. Jim, what about the impact on you personally<\/i>? Now, all the things I\u2019ve been looking at, you\u2019ve won awards in a lot of ways\u2014\u00a0well, like\u2014\u00a0as is Cecil Williams [minister at Glide Methodist Church], you are<\/i> the center of attention, and you can\u2019t help it. You\u2019re aware\u2014 It\u2019s sad, in a lot of ways. Obviously, there are dangers involved in that, too. Any person\u2019s, like spiritually, where your head\u2019s at, getting egotistical and things like that. How do you handle all the attention and all the\u2014 all the\u2014 the needs that are put upon you to solve? How do you deal with that personally?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> You see so many needs, that I don\u2019t know how anyone could get egotistical about it, because you realize that all you do is just a drop in the bucket, compared to the vast needs in America today. I see democracy in the balances, uh, around the\u2014 where our church is located in the Fillmore, there\u2019s a great deal of deterioration, and (unintelligible word), even though we have a drug rehabilitation program, and that the church is open 24 hours a night, people can come off the street and find shelter, how<\/i> could one become egotistical in times like these? We\u2019re not making enough progress<\/i> about meeting the needs of people. Poverty\u2019s on the increase. Malnourish\u2014 malnutrition, most of our youth\u2014 our children, state of ecology, I think, an apathy about uh, social issues in gener\u2014 general. I\u2014 I have never been egotistic in regard to what I\u2019m doing, at least.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> In talking with a lot of people \u2014 my own parents, friends of mine, and things like that \u2014\u00a0it seems that they\u2019ve been so<\/i> overwhelmed\u2014 I guess possibly this is part of the media\u2019s responsibility, with<\/i> the fact that there are so<\/i> many social problems that seem to be getting worse all the time, that they just kind of said, “My God<\/i>, it is just so massive to deal with, I give up. Why even try”? How do you resist that kind of attitude in people?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> It\u2019s very difficult. Very<\/i> difficult. We try to keep active. The old uh, colloquialism, uh, that the uh, idle mind\u2019s a devil\u2019s workshop\u2014\u00a0One thing that helps me is just keep very, very busy, and I keep a schedule of twenty-some hours a day. I\u2014 I think that uh, it\u2019s a dangerous<\/i> phenomenon, when we read, what was it, yesterday, that uh, perhaps only 30% of the electorate\u2019s going to vote, uh, and I can see good reason for this, see a lot of glib things coming from politicians, we need\u2014\u00a0we need uh, dramatic<\/i> things proposed, and not uh, politicians trying to get the pulse uh, of what people want, but to say from their heart what they really feel<\/i>. And if they\u2019re wrong, not uh, not be so concerned about how it\u2019s going to affect them in the public eye. Uh, I\u2014 I can see reason for apathy. After all, we\u2019ve gone through Watergate, and we still a lot of vested interests, we see people uh, at the top echelons not paying their fair amount of taxes, not carrying the burden they ought to, corruption is still\u2014 we read about it every day, coming out about this politician or that\u2014 although I\u2019m uh, very encouraged\u2014 That\u2019s<\/i> why I\u2019m very deeply<\/i> con\u2014\u00a0uh, concerned that the media not be infringed upon. That\u2019s all we have in this country. We would\u2019ve never known about Watergate if it hadn\u2019t been for someone being able to keep his source \u2014 Deep Throat \u2014 \u2018cause I\u2019m sure Deep Throat would\u2019ve not spoken what he had to say if he had been revealed. And\u2014\u00a0and as I said, I personally have had death threats upon me, and I\u2019m doing a very limited work, uh, what\u2014\u00a0what a person like that would have, who was willing to step forward and reveal uh, hidden secrets of corruption in high places, we just must not set back idly and allow the press to be restricted. Even though there are responsible pressmen at times uh, who\u2014 who misuse that, uh, that misuse their sources, and say things that are not true about this group or that group or another, I\u2014 I still feel that the confidentiality of sources is a vital issue today.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Well, can\u2019t argue with you there. Jim, time and time again, just\u2014 and it just amazes me, I\u2014 I see stories of a\u2014 uh, let me, let me try to think of recent things. There was an animal shelter that was out of money. Peoples Temple comes forward, I think it was $5000, if memory serves me correctly. There was a\u2014\u00a0a program to uh, offer transportation to senior citizens, I\u2014 as I remember, I think Vietnam vets were involved, only jobs they could get, the program was running out of money, People Temple comes up with it. Where in the hell<\/i> do you get the thousands of dollars<\/i> that you\u2019re constantly coming up with all the time to help program?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> We have a large membership, the membership\u2019s getting close to 9000 active members. We don\u2019t have a\u2014 a regimen of tithing that\u2019s required. Some do<\/i>, because they see a lot of results from what they\u2019re\u2014 what they\u2019re giving and\u2014 amazing, some little seniors are the most beautiful part of our ministry. They\u2019ll get out and have a bake<\/i> sale or a rummage sale. A lot of things like that. We receive no<\/i> resources outside of our church. Now there is<\/i> going to be, I guess a\u2014 a testimonial, much to my chagrin on fo\u2014 on the 25th, uh, I asked them after I became aware of it to change it to a benefit<\/i>. And I suppose those that buy tickets at that affair which the lieutenant governor [Mervyn Dymally] and the mayor [George Moscone] and various other congressmen will be coming, uh, that will be the first time, I believe, in our history, that we\u2019ve ever received any outside resources. We are self-supporting. We have\u2014 We have no governmental um\u2014 we\u2019re not dependent upon any agency. That gives us a, a great deal of independence to be ourselves.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Umm-hmm. You just more or less, when you need the money, just get the word out and people just go to work and that\u2019s how it happens.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes. Yes. (unintelligible phrase) like with um, Dennis Banks, for instance, when his wife was uh, suffering with a little baby, Ka-mook in jail, our\u2014 we\u2014\u00a0we presented<\/i> it\u2014 him to the congregation, and um, our people are generous. They\u2019re good<\/i>, uh, beyond uh, any\u2014 any people I\u2019ve ever served as pastor. Uh\u2014 We raised, I think, $20,000 to get\u2014\u00a0get her free.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> My God.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I think she\u2019s going now, before her trial, I don\u2019t know what the status of the trial is\u2014<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> I think you\u2019re correct. Yeah. Yeah, I do remember that. He did<\/i> uh, get off on, I think, what was the\u2014 the biggest charge that was facing him, just a couple of weeks ago though\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> He was one of the most unusual cases to, uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> You\u2019re telling me<\/i>. There was a deathbed confession that absolved<\/i> him evidently, that the person that was murdered said it wasn\u2019t him<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes. Yes, yes. And another thing. Many people we help never come back. You know, they get their\u2014 their assistance, and you never even get a thank you. This man came back with a whole, uh, group of his uh, tribe\u2014 and insisted<\/i> on coming back, and thanking us before the press, which we didn\u2019t require at all. He called a press conference in our church after<\/i> the fact that we\u2019d assisted him, when he was still under a lot<\/i> of pressure. I saw uh, a go\u2014 a good man there, I thought, a very good man.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Yeah. Yeah. He surely has a good deal of influence now. I\u2014 I\u2019ve\u2014 I\u2019ve had a chance to meet him. He is a fascinating man. (Pause) (Tape edit?) Just getting my head together here. We could stay for hours. I want to go for the most important things. I\u2019m writing my report here, okay, so, trying to think of things I want to move to. Jim, I did want to bring up Vietnam vets with you, because that<\/i> seems to me to be an issue that\u2019s died that is still here, it\u2019s just that it\u2019s not being discussed, so therefore, it doesn\u2019t exist<\/i>, because of just how media and society are nowadays. I\u2019m<\/i> under the impression \u2014 I happened to talk with somebody at San Francisco State a couple of weeks ago \u2014 that uh, there are a good many Vietnam vets still<\/i> w\u2014\u00a0without employment, uh, into drugs and a whole lot of other things. What have you been seeing at Peoples Temple?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes, yes. A whole\u2014 I don\u2019t like to\u2014\u00a0to see the number of young people that are still on drugs. Some say it\u2019s improved<\/i>. I can\u2019t see it in our quarter particular\u2014 particularly. But it has improved. It\u2019s a\u2014 It\u2019s a terrible shame that we would have called our young people to be involved in a war that we have since questioned the morality of that war, and not provide opportunity for them. That\u2019s what I saw in the Senior Citizens Escort Service here, black, white, uh, Mexican, Chinese, all these young men going beyond the call of duty, helping\u2014 I think there was uh, primarily older white senior citizens, and they gave uh, uh\u2014 it almost\u2014 it was like they became children to them. They gave after hour, overtime, um\u2014 uh, it\u2019s, it\u2019s [a] shame<\/i>, I\u2014 I think that we\u2019re going to have to face some basic changes<\/i> in our society, a more egalitarian type of society.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> And that leads to my next question. (Pause) Can we provide for all of our people with\u2014\u00a0well, uh, they call<\/i> it capitalism, um, at least by my college training, I\u2019m\u2014 I\u2019m finding it very hard to fit the definition of capitalism in how this country is run, because I\u2019m not seeing capitalism, I don\u2019t see like free<\/i> enterprise\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> No, no. I really don\u2019t either.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Can we continue with this kind of economy and deal<\/i> with the domestic problems that we\u2019re facing, including ecology and jobs and stuff like that? I<\/i> don\u2019t think we can, with the profit motive being so important now.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I\u2019m afraid not, and particularly, as you say, free enterprise doesn\u2019t exist. My wife [Marceline] is with the state department of health, uh, her official (unintelligible word) inspection of hospitals, convalescent centers. Uh, when she said, the\u2014 in the day when s\u2014 uh, the small businessperson existed, there was a lot of quality care. Now, she\u2019s into situations that are indescribable<\/i>, where people are uh, a piece of cordwood<\/i>. Uh, she finds uh, patients with uh, (unintelligible word\u2014 a drug name?), uncared for, uh, it\u2019s just like uh, a, a machine process. And uh, we see this in every phase<\/i> of uh, of our life, that the small businessperson has indeed been put out of business, and the multinationals grow, and they\u2019re (small laugh) involved in the overthrow of governments across the sea, uh, and who knows their power, can\u2019t even begin to comprehend their power, influence or their\u2014 their wealth. I\u2014 I\u2014 I indeed agree with you. We\u2019re going to have to have some sort of welfare<\/i> capitalism, better than what we have now. The system is not adequate, and we\u2019re going to have to see some basic changes, we\u2019re going to have to certainly see that people at the top echelons pay a\u2014 a fairer share of their taxes. Every day<\/i> we read it, even the (stumbles over words) the present candidates<\/i>, uh, they\u2019re paying less taxes than I<\/i> do, and I make, uh, my mi\u2014 my wages are minimal (small laugh) compared to theirs. I read one of them \u2014 I don\u2019t want to go into the name \u2014 but his taxes, he paid less taxes than I<\/i> did last year.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Yeah. Yeah. (Pause) This\u2014 I was\u2014 I was going to bring up the fact that\u2014 that the politicians seem to be preying on that idea, too. I mean, uh, what\u2019s the big pitch now in terms of taxes? We\u2019re going to reduce them for the middle class and all this. It seems to me like the\u2014 the middle class is being inundated politically at least with the idea that, well, the system can work, and we realize you need a break, and we\u2019re all, of course, campaign that you get it. But it seems to me, in looking at it over the long view, especially the Nixon Administration, that [former President Richard] Nixon worked very hard in convincing the middle class that it was the poor<\/i> people they needed to be afraid of. Not the Pentagon, not Washington, and not the corporations. I\u2014 Uh, being a mi\u2014 a middle class member, whether or not I like it, I\u2019ve never<\/i> agreed with that, because I don\u2019t see the poor people having been born and raised in the flatlands of Oakland as my enemies<\/i>. They\u2019re my brothers and sisters, that\u2019s who I grew up with. How do we go about helping the middle class taxpayer, who does<\/i> carry the financial burden of this country\u2014\u00a0how do we demonstrate to him that his money is in fact better spent in drug rehabilitation programs as against prisons, is better spent at providing jobs as against welfare and unemployment checks. I mean, how do we con\u2014 begin to make them see<\/i> that that is a better investment of their money, as to what it is now?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, if we\u2014 if we take a look at some of the society of Scandinavian countries and see the modest amount of crime, uh\u2014 it\u2019s hardly safe to walk the streets in most any<\/i> neighborhood, because the environmental circumstances uh, force people to violence. I\u2014 I\u2014 I don\u2019t believe in um, uh, prison syst\u2014 our prison system, or death penalties, I don\u2019t think that\u2019s the answer<\/i>. I think we need to create a better social situation. We have had people come to us in our church community that were one on the most troubled individual\u2014 individuals, people that they said their pathology was uh, psycho\u2014 uh, psychopathic. One young man, I think, that we just sent to our agricultural mission, um, he\u2019s been there now six months, he\u2014 he took delight in cutting uh, dogs\u2019<\/i> heads off and chickens\u2019 heads off, and they said there was no cure for him. But given a new setting, and opportunity, uh, we haven\u2019t had a problem. The people there in that agricultural mission, professional people, say it\u2019s amazing, it\u2019s almost like a, a person that\u2019s been reborn.<\/p>\n

I happen to believe that social conditions do<\/i> shape the individual. I remember one time when I was the foreman of the grand jury of uh, Mendocino County, they brought before me this uh, I\u2019ve forgotten, Main, I think, that raped uh, a young woman [Susan Bartholomew] and left her, it was a terrible case, and killed the\u2014 the son of a district attorney, and\u2014 and left her p\u2014 paralyzed. But uh, in receiving witnesses, when I had to hand down uh, a writ of indictment<\/i>, as the foreman of the grand jury, one witness came up before me and he said, this man chased me for about forty miles and bumped my car and kept trying to push me off the road, and he said, finally he turned around and went back uh, I saw these young\u2014 these young people walking on the road, their car had been stranded. And I said, what\u2019d you do, sir? He said, well, I went home and I had a mi\u2014 a milk toddy, I think he said, and prayed. And I said, why didn\u2019t you stop<\/i> at the next uh, next uh, door. Said how close was it. He said, oh, about a quarter of a mile. Didn\u2019t occur to him that he had a moral responsibility. And then when I got him to Main\u2019s background, strapped in a chair, uh, his dad, uh, an alcoholic, due to uh, handicaps in his physical life from the war, on welfare, degraded environment, and strapped in a chair, and his dad took it up of a typical syndrome of battering the child and battering his wife, uh, what\u2014\u00a0uh, what\u2019s going to happen to any<\/i> animal when you beat<\/i> it and deprive it, like the poor dog left a whi\u2014\u00a0a while ago, uh, we read in the news yesterday, uh, left for days without food, and the little baby laying there still. That wasn\u2019t a vicious animal. It was a starving<\/i> animal. And I\u2014 I\u2014 I don\u2019t know what is the matter with our society that wants to uh, think that we can remedy [the] situation by just killing people off, because as long as these ghettoes<\/i> exist, and underprivileged situations are there<\/i>, we\u2019re still<\/i> going to have problems. Certainly I\u2019m\u2014 I\u2019m afraid of governmental uh, bureaucracy. [Thomas] Jefferson had a point uh, perhaps, when he said the government governs least governs best\u2014 uh, governs best that governs least, rather. I uh, I know there are dangers going down the road to uh, government um, involvement, but (laughs) when I see uh, the lives<\/i> that are wasted, and uh, the\u2014 the youth<\/i> that are just spaced out, uh, I think we better take some chances uh, on a government that will reach uh, reach the people on all levels.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Yeah, I hear what you\u2019re saying. Could you define for me what you believe moral responsibility is in 1976?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> In what regard? I never like to speak just off the cuff on that, that doesn\u2019t moa\u2014<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> \u2014that doesn\u2019t bring forth anything from me, I\u2019m sorry, that\u2019s a (unintelligible word) question you hit me with, I\u2014 well, I don\u2019t know how, what\u2014<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Okay\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I don\u2019t know what you\u2019re saying, probably. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What is my<\/i> obligation, as a member of this society, or any<\/i> individual\u2019s obligation to the people around him? The reason I ask this question \u2014 let me tell you a very quick story \u2014 there\u2019s a little uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> That\u2019d help me.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> \u2014a teenager, okay, in London, this happened a couple of weeks ago, who was born with a tic, he had a nervous tic and he shook\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> \u2014and they drowned him.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> And he was deliberately disliked. But there was a very long story on this.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (unintelligible word) Italian\u2014 No, no one (unintelligible phrase as interviewer talks)\u2014<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> In front of a thousand people, he was drowned and beaten\u2014 Okay, uh, we do<\/i> hear of cases like this, a very famous case of [Kitty Genovese] that woman in New York that was robbed and beaten in an alley, all these people watched, you know\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> And somebody getting ready to jump out of a building, they all stand down and say, “Jump, jump, jump.”<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Stand\u2014 Why? I\u2014 Again, I put the question to you. What<\/i> is our moral responsibility to our fellow men and women?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Softly) Yi. (Short laugh) That\u2014 that is a big\u2014<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Where<\/i> does it begin and end<\/i>?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> It ends in the society, uh, which I\u2019m a little hesitant to\u2014 Are we on the air?<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Yeah. I won\u2019t use it if you don\u2019t want to.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Laughs) I don\u2019t\u2014 I think you\u2019re going to have to get into a society that teaches some form of cooperativism<\/i>, uh, call it socialism or what, I\u2019d rather not<\/i> use that word, because I\u2019ve had so many death threats on my family<\/i> even. I\u2014 I don\u2019t see how we\u2019re going to possibly<\/i> get cooperation, when we teach competition, competition, competition. If you want people to uh, assist and be responsible, we\u2019re going\u2014 in the school, everywhere, we\u2019re going to have to emphasize a cooperative society rather than so much competition.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Yeah. Yeah. Is there any program\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> If you ever ask the question again, I\u2019ll give that<\/i> phase of it.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> (Laughs) I\u2019d like to try to move on to uh, something that\u2014 Do you have any projects that are ongoing right now that you\u2019d like to talk about?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I never like to talk very much about what we\u2019re doing.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> (Lightly) Ah, but you gotta. See, that\u2019s part of your obligation to the community, see? Now that I\u2019ve got you here, you gotta do that.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, what do you know that we ought to talk about?<\/p>\n

Temple member:<\/b> Well, I think that the\u2014 the medical, the\u2014 the programs for seniors, the medical care, and whatever the need is, uh, legal help.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> You might stick\u2014 It might\u2014\u00a0might be able to get some of these uh, middle class people less scared if we would emphasize that the church could do one hell of a lot, if it would be, uh, do\u2014\u00a0have a lot of voluntary efforts. All this money wasted. See, our<\/i> Temple is \u2014 you should see it \u2014\u00a0is the most used building in the world. We have ping pong set up in the sanctuary, we move the chairs, we have folding chairs, uh, we use for recreation. There always are free shows available, every night, get the kids off the street. And crafts and games and all sorts of things. Woodwork going on, printing shop where the people can learn training, printing. We have a radio<\/i> broadcast, so we can get youth involved in engineering and<\/i> broadcasting. Um, uh\u2014\u00a0Perhaps if they heard<\/i> that, they\u2014 they\u2019re always griping about more government encroa\u2014 croachment, maybe uh, maybe uh, some emphasis on that would\u2014\u00a0How much a building can be used, and these abominable institutions, they\u2014 they build the damnable things, you know, miles high, cathedral, the steeple that has no use, or vast uh, auditorium that\u2019s never used but one hour on Sunday. It\u2019s an abomination.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Yeah. The edifice complex, as Governor [Jerry] Brown has talked about it.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Um\u2014 It\u2019s funny how uh, you\u2019re bringing up, uh\u2014\u00a0we don\u2019t use our\u2014\u00a0our physical resources very well. Little wonder that we\u2019re not using our human resources very well anymore.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I read where a church spe\u2014 spent a hundred thousand dollars for tapestry, uh, someplace on the ra\u2014\u00a0around the choir. Uh, tha\u2014 that\u2019s a crime.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Really.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> It\u2019s just criminal.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Yeah. Yeah. I remember when uh, the new cathedral was built on Geary, uh, one of the priests I had at Santa Clara wrote a very<\/i> stinging letter to the bishop. I mean, he really risked a lot in complaining about it\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I\u2019m sure he did.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> (unintelligible word as Jones interrupts) \u2014all the millions he could have spent there, he just could have handed out to the community and he would\u2019ve (unintelligible under Jones)\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> It still goes on.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What about that? How hard is it to uh, to\u2014 You have to\u2014 Now you have no choice. You have<\/i> to deal with, with government agencies and stuff like that. What kind of reception do community-based organizations like yours get from, like, the city of San Francisco, the state, the fed?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> We don\u2019t uh\u2014 We don\u2019t\u2014\u00a0Being that we\u2019re not su\u2014 uh, the supply\u2014 or\u2014 What am I saying here? What do I want to say? We\u2019re not uh, funded<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Subsidized?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> We\u2019re not funded. We have very little<\/i> connection. We do have a credit<\/i> bureau. It doesn\u2019t fall under my immediate jurisdiction. We have uh, some accountants who are very, very fine. One woman who volunteers her time. Mrs. Leroy [Laetitia Leroy, aka Tish Leroy]. She has more experience in the contact with the government. But being that we seek no assistance from the government, we really don\u2019t have that problem.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Um-hmm.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I don\u2019t\u2014 I really don\u2019t know how to relate to that.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Could I ask your appraisal of Chief [Charles] Gain\u2019s policies, in terms of the San Francisco Police Department?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I think Chief Gain is a very human<\/i> person. I\u2014 I\u2014 Sensitive. I think he\u2019s ne\u2014\u00a0he\u2019s necessary in law enforcement. I never could understand all the ballyhoo abo\u2014\u00a0about the flag. \u2018Cause I\u2019ve seen so many people of late carry the flag in, in, for instance, Boston, attack uh, some minority person who\u2019s a member of the government with a\u2014 ah, use it as a spear. Some of the people who wave the flag the most uh, hide behind hate<\/i>, uh, to the degree that I\u2019m not able to comprehend. I\u2019ve seen in Chief Gain, though\u2014 I\u2019m not a personal friend. He has be\u2014\u00a0spoken at our church. I\u2014 I\u2014 I think that the man has a uh, a care<\/i> for people<\/i>, and goodness knows that we need<\/i> that in law enforcement. There\u2019s quite an alienation, particularly a\u2014\u00a0amongst minorities and poor whites<\/i>, uh, in reference to law<\/i> enforcement. They don\u2019t trust<\/i>. And when we have a chief with a heart, that has programs that uh, are more concerned about rehabilitation than uh, punishment, I\u2014 I think that\u2019s good.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> I do too. You mentioned media when you first walked in here. Do you want to talk about that a little bit? I\u2014 I\u2014 Obviously you\u2019re very concerned\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> And you asked me about moral responsibility too, if you want me to get back on that, I\u2019ll\u2014 I\u2019ll try it\u2014<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Do you want to try it again?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I\u2014 I\u2019ll try it again, yes, if you want me to.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Okay. Let\u2019s see what you\u2014 I\u2019d like to try to get a working definition of what\u2014 what you<\/i> believe to be the moral responsibility of people towards each other in this day and age.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, uh, uh, the Christian concept was, that we uh\u2014 the Judeo<\/i>-Christian concept, in fact, I think it runs through all the great world faith[s], is that we are our brother and \u2014 not to be chauvinistic \u2014\u00a0sister\u2019s keeper. I think that there\u2019s been too much stress placed upon competition, from the school up, and in sports and everything. There ought to be more emphasis upon cooperation. I think that\u2019s<\/i> why we see people, uh, passed by, uh, uh. The man I read in Jet<\/i> uh, yesterday, that was hung on a road sign. Fortunately, it didn\u2019t happen to break his neck, but a thousand<\/i> people passed that man without even stopping. Some even backed their cars up and looked at it and went on. Only one person called the police, but no one stopped to assist him. And you were mentioning earlier, the incident in England \u2014 \u2018cause America\u2019s not the only place that has a problem with prejudice and apathy and indifference \u2014 how a thousand people can stand and watch a young Italian uh, who it happens to be the victim of prejudice there\u2014 And by the way, other ethnic groups should<\/i> show\u2014\u00a0have concern<\/i>. Prejudice does not just limit itself to Chicano or Indian or Mexican, because in England, Italians are very much uh, the victims of prejudice. But none of those thousand people came forward until money was offered, I believe. Uh\u2014\u00a0This, this is appalling. And I think you\u2019re going to get<\/i> that, until \u2014 from the media and from the church and from the schools, every area \u2014 cooperation<\/i> is taught, and uh, some value is placed upon that type of assistance of people.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Hmm. Mike? (Pause) How much more time do we have on the tape? (Pause) About two minutes. I\u2019d like to try very quickly in about two minutes: What about local Bay Area media? Are you satisfied that we\u2019re doing our job in terms of conducting open discussions? And I\u2019m talking about whether prime time news of what\u2019s going on in communities, both the good and the bad. What\u2019s been your impression of our job?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I think the Bay is better than anyplace I\u2019ve seen, but it\u2019s never quite adequate, I\u2019m sure, uh, compared to the vast need that we have, to discuss the problems that are before us. Um\u2014 I\u2014 As I\u2014 I\u2014 Unfortunately, being a working minister of about 20 hours a day, I don\u2019t get to listen to the news enough, but um, I see a better<\/i> job all the time being done.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> You do. You do. What about the uh, integration of the media itself? You mentioned, as you first walked in here, that you\u2019re seeing more minorities.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes, I was pleased to see a minority<\/i> person interviewing me. Um\u2014 I have not had the occasion to look through this uh, particular uh, uh, radio station, but I think it\u2019s very important that we uh, see minorities at every level, uh, because unfortunately in the past, we see often uh, some tokenism, but at the top will be uh, the white male still prevalent. But I think again, I see integration at all levels of the media better here. In the Midwest, when I was traveling through\u2014\u00a0we take a bus tour every year to take underprivileged people to see Washington and places of interest and beautiful parts of America, uh, you\u2014 you can go through many cities and never see a minority face as a communicaster at all.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Wow. That is interesting.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Mmm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> We\u2019ve run out of time. I did want to have a chance to talk to you. I think we\u2019re going to leave it right there. At 10:54, we did all right. (Calls out) Mike? We\u2019ll stop it there. How\u2019s your voice feeling?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, my voice is\u2014<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> You okay?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> \u2014feels all right, but it sounds horrible, (unintelligible word) people to listen to it.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> You\u2019ve got a hell of a good uh\u2014 tape recorder here.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> This is considered one of the best.<\/p>\n

Movements, then tape turned off.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Part 2: Phone call<\/strong><\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> Oh yes. I uh\u2014 You wrote a letter to the paper or something?<\/p>\n

Temple member:<\/b> Pardon me?<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> Pardon<\/i> you? Can\u2019t you hear me? You wrote a let\u2014<\/p>\n

Temple member:<\/b> I didn\u2019t understand you.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> You wrote a letter to the paper? Editor?<\/p>\n

Temple member:<\/b> To which paper, sir?<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> Oh, the Examiner<\/i> or Chronicle<\/i>. (unintelligible word), I\u2019m trying to find the name here. Oh, hi\u2014<\/p>\n

Temple member:<\/b> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> A Michael Prokus wrote, I guess. Prokes?<\/p>\n

Temple member:<\/b> I see. Uh, he\u2019s not in now, but your phone call sounded like you needed a call back, so I uh, I took that liberty to return the telephone call.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> Well, that\u2019s what it\u2019s for, is to call back (unintelligible word). I didn\u2019t care who it was. I\u2019m looking for altruists, though. I\u2019ve waited\u2014\u00a0written 18,000 letters regarding urban problems all over the world, and no one seems to care, and I\u2019ve distributed a hundred thousand flyers, trying to promote the golden rule of constructive sharing, minimize money, and uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Temple member:<\/b> Sounds good.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> It seems everyone prefers guns and gold and react to problems.<\/p>\n

Temple member:<\/b> Uh\u2014\u00a0How did you find out about our letter? Was it something you read in the paper?<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> (unintelligible phrase). If it was in the paper, I read it in the paper<\/i>, right?<\/p>\n

Temple member:<\/b> I see. I see. Well, our problem\u2014<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> But great minds discuss ideas<\/i>. What\u2019s better than moral health, maximum sharing for mental and physical health.<\/p>\n

Temple member:<\/b> What\u2019d that letter appear, I\u2019m trying to\u2014<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> Is the hum better?<\/p>\n

Temple member:<\/b> Pardon me?<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> Is it\u2014 Pardon me? Can\u2019t you say, what? (Pause) Is the hum better than moral health?<\/p>\n

Temple member:<\/b> I\u2019m trying to\u2014<\/p>\n

Man hangs up.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Part 3: TV newscast<\/strong><\/p>\n

TV announcer:<\/b> \u2014demonstration tomorrow in Fresno, on behalf of the four Fresno Bee reporters now in jail for refusing to reveal news sources to the courts.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> We\u2019re very much concerned that we\u2014 that they\u2014 if we allow these types of infringements to begin<\/i>, uh, we will not have<\/i> a free press. And, as I believe I read the other day, 98% of the world doesn\u2019t have a free press at this time.<\/p>\n

TV Announcer:<\/b> Jim Jones, pastor of the Peoples Temple. Six ten notes of the Berkeley one-act theater company is presenting a Tennessee\u2014<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Part 4:<\/strong><\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> The applications\u2014<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> The applications for\u2014<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Part 5: Conversation between Mike Prokes and Kay<\/strong><\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Kay?<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> Uh-huh?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Mike Prokes.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> Hi, Mike.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> How you doing?<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> Oh, fine.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Haven\u2019t heard from you for a while. Jim just wanted to know what your attitudes and feelings are at this point.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> I just walked in the door from school.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Oh, you did?<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> But uh, in any event, uh\u2014 (Pause) No excuses, I mean, I was going to come anyway, but I mean it\u2019s just this is why you called, because uh\u2014 (Pause) You know, I mean my attitude is okay, it\u2019s just that uh\u2014 (Pause) (Sighs) You know, I don\u2019t uh\u2014 I\u2019ve been doing a lot of thinking about it and uh\u2014 you know, my health originally at stake, and you know, pretty much, I\u2019m still under the doctor\u2019s uh, care now, and uh, I<\/i> just really think it\u2019s just too much<\/i> for me and uh, I know that I can\u2019t, you know, continue to be a part of uh, PC [Planning Commission] and not, you know, be<\/i> there and stuff, and I just know that, you know, I can\u2019t hack that. I mean, my nerves just cannot take<\/i> it, and then get up and go to work and\u2014\u00a0and go to school and carry on the normal functions that I have. I just can\u2019t do it. So uh\u2014 (Sighs) I don\u2019t know. You know, I mean, my feeling at this point is that, I mean, I\u2014 I know what the obligations<\/i> are and I would just rather not even be Council, you know, because I just cannot handle that. I mean, emotionally, I just cannot handle<\/i> it. (Pause) And I mean, you know, I thought about, well, can you handle it, is it, you know, the kind of thing, can you handle it and\u2014\u00a0or are you just saying<\/i> that you can\u2019t? And uh, you know, when I reflect on the fact that, you know, I was sha\u2014\u00a0I was shaking to pieces<\/i> sometimes when I walked out of that room, you know, just from being up so long and that period of work and the whole thing for a whole period of day, I\u2014 It wasn\u2019t a question of whether you wanted to or not. To me, it was just a question of whether my body<\/i> could, you know, continue to hack that.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah, why uh, why would\u2014 how does be\u2014 why would being a counselor uh, hurt?<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> It wouldn\u2019t<\/i> hurt. It\u2019s just that I know that there\u2019s certain demands<\/i> that are made on counselors, you know. And I just don\u2019t think it\u2019s fair to, you know, ask not<\/i> to have those demands put on me<\/i>, you know, and still, you know, maintain the same position. I\u2019m not saying that\u2014 you know, I\u2019m saying that I\u2019m willing to do that. I\u2019m just saying that (Pause) I would prefer not to ask for, you know\u2014 (Pause)<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Ah\u2014<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> For, you know\u2014 I\u2014 I\u2019d prefer not to ask for somebody to\u2014 to be doing something for me that would cause problems for somebody else looking on, \u2018cause I also know how that\u2019s affected me. You know\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> What do you mean? I don\u2019t understand.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> Well, you know, I mean, when people see somebody else doing something, and whether they understand or don\u2019t<\/i> understand, they still, you know, have feelings<\/i> about it, if they feel that they\u2019re getting away with something that they\u2019re<\/i> not getting away with, you know, and\u2014\u00a0Or I mean, that\u2019s the way they look at it. It\u2019s not to say they\u2019re getting away<\/i> with anything or not, it\u2019s just that I think that\u2019s how we reflect on things.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> So, uh, what role would\u2014 did you want, I mean, what uh, what\u2019s\u2014 How do you see yourself? What positions or position would you be taking?<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> You know, I have no problems in coming to church, you know, it\u2019s just that uh, I have a problem staying up<\/i> all night, and trying to work, and going to school, and going to meetings twice a week, and you know, I mean I just\u2014\u00a0I just cannot hack<\/i> that. (Pause) And then maybe it was in\u2014 if it was in nature of a meeting that I was going to that had some end results<\/i>, you know\u2014 I mean, in my<\/i> mind, there\u2019re\u2014\u00a0there\u2019re none. (Pause) You know, if it was a busi\u2014\u00a0I don\u2019t know. I mean, I\u2019m just saying that I\u2014\u00a0I just know that emotionally, I cannot just stay up like that and function like a normal person. I just can\u2019t do it. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Okay. Okay. All right. Uh. I\u2019ll pass it along, and uh, possibly get back to you.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> You know, \u2018cause one of the things that had happened was that I was, you know, running to work, you know, like in the middle of the day on Saturday, and running back on Sunday, trying to make up for things that I didn\u2019t do, you know, and it just got\u2014 it just got out of hand. I mean, my work was\u2014\u00a0when I got ready to l\u2014 to\u2014\u00a0you know, to go away and try to get some rest, I had to work two days overtime to catch up with my work. (Laughs) You know, which is just, I mean\u2014 I mean, that\u2019s a trip<\/i>. And, you know, fortunately, you know, I\u2014 you know, I told my boss that I just really, you know, wasn\u2019t feeling well, and that I, you know, wanted to take some, you know, leave of\u2014\u00a0short leave, you know, for a period of time, and she said it was okay. But I mean I<\/i> could see myself as being under a lot of scrutiny and criticism, had I been someplace else<\/i>, where I wasn\u2019t<\/i> in control, you know, basically of a lot of my own work<\/i>. (Pause) But I had\u2014\u00a0I mean, I had really\u2014\u00a0I mean, I had really gotten bad, Mike, I\u2019m telling you the truth. A girl in the office said something to me, and I almo\u2014 I mean, I almost slapped<\/i> her. I mean, I walked up to hit<\/i> her. And I mean, that\u2019s\u2014 (Pause) you know, I mean, (unintelligible word)\u2014 I mean, I think you know me a little bit\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> (unintelligible phrase as Kay talks) Are you sure it\u2019s a result of, we have the meeting?<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> No, I think it was a result of my nerves<\/i> just being\u2014 you know? You know how you just get to the point where you just\u2014 (Pause) Well, I don\u2019t know if you ever got<\/i> at that point.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Well, (unintelligible word as Kay talks) was it brought on by here<\/i>, for sure? Or could it have been brought on by the\u2014 your job itself?<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> No, I think it was, it was brought on with the combination<\/i> of things, just the fact that I was just tired<\/i> all the time, my nerves were shot to\u2014 to hell<\/i>. I had gotten to the point where I was just shaking. (Pause) And it, you know\u2014 And my hair had started to fall out, I had bald spots on my head, you know, there was little\u2014\u00a0I still<\/i> got some of those, it\u2019s not nearly like it was<\/i>, but little bumps, you know, red bumps that would get\u2014 which comes from what they call psoriasis. And it\u2019s all nerves<\/i>. (Pause) I mean, that\u2019s what it was described to me as, nerves. (Pause) So I<\/i> don\u2019t know whether it was in all results of that, no I can\u2019t really say that.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> I\u2019m just saying that I think that the combination of it all<\/i>, you know, was just\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Well, I\u2014 you know, I don\u2019t know what uh, sort of position uh, you know, we<\/i> can take, uh, and you know, I don\u2019t um, presume to make that decision now. But uh, I just know that, you know, like in the past<\/i>, when have people have uh, wanted to, you know, lessen<\/i> their responsibility, it uh\u2014\u00a0Well, you know it just sets a, you know, a precedent for others who would like to do the same.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> Mike, I realize that. I realize that. And that\u2019s why I, you know, I suggested right from the\u2014 from the beginning that, you know, I just come off Council altogether, \u2018cause I realize<\/i> that that\u2019s what happens.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Well, that\u2019s what I\u2019m talking about. Oh, you suggested that from the beginning, is that what you\u2019re saying?<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> Yeah<\/i>, because I think that it does set a precedent for people in terms of, if I was allowed to do something else<\/i>, you know, then I think it would cause more<\/i> of a problem. (Pause) I<\/i> don\u2019t know. I just uh, know that I, you know, I\u2019ve had a lot of time to do a lot of uh, thinking, and you know, I mean, I\u2019m\u2014\u00a0There\u2019s nothing wrong with me, you know, I mean, I\u2019m not hostile or anything, you know, and I don\u2019t want to leave<\/i>, it\u2019s just that\u2014 I know what I can take, Mike, you know, and I know what\u2014\u00a0I think I should have\u2014 I\u2014 I have a right to make up my mind what I want to do, you know.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Sure, you have a right to do that. What\u2014\u00a0The problem is what we\u2019re going to\u2014 you know, what would you have us say to others?<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> I don\u2019t know. I don\u2019t\u2014 I don\u2019t think that that\u2019s my position, you know, I mean, I really don\u2019t see that as being my position.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> That\u2019s not your position, but uh, I mean, do you see the difficulty?<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> No, I\u2014\u00a0I see the difficulty, but I mean, the whole difficulty right now in which\u2014 I mean, I think that that was my whole dilemma<\/i>. I think that that\u2019s one of the things that really got me started<\/i> on\u2014 on that downhill trend<\/i>, is because it looked like there was no way out. I was just fenced in, and I had<\/i> all this responsibility, nobody<\/i> wanted to hear that, nobody<\/i> wanted to lessen it. I was just trapped. (Pause) You know, and I\u2014 how\u2014 you know, I can\u2019t live<\/i> like that. I don\u2019t know about other people, or what other people want to do<\/i>, but, you know, I\u2019ve had that. I mean, I have had it up to\u2014 you know, like almost have a nervous breakdown, and I just can\u2019t\u2014 I don\u2019t think that that\u2019s what it should be all about.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Okay. Well, I\u2019m\u2014 I\u2019m just saying that, it\u2014 it\u2019s almost like an impossible situation where, you have someone comes up to ask advice for me as a counselor and you say, well, I\u2019m not a counselor, and I know that you were<\/i> at one time. I mean, people are going to know that you no\u2014 no longer a counselor, and uh\u2014 it\u2019s\u2014 it\u2019s like an impossible situation to deal with, as far as explaining it to them why you\u2019re not. (Pause) That\u2019s why I wonder if you are dealing with, you know, if you understand that. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> Well, no, I didn\u2019t uh, deal with that.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> That\u2019s what we have to deal with. I mean, that\u2019s what we\u2014\u00a0what we\u2019d be facing. (Pause) (Sighs) And so\u2014 uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> I don\u2019t know. I mean, I don\u2019t have solutions. I mean, I didn\u2019t\u2014 obviously haven\u2019t had any solutions some time ago or I wouldn\u2019t have uh, been in uh, the state in which I was in.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Okay. Well, I\u2019ll just uh\u2014 (unintelligible word) Do you have anything to add? (Pause)<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> All right.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> \u2014pass it along\u2014<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> No, not really, I\u2014 you know, I mean, I don\u2019t know what to say, \u2018cause I\u2014<\/p>\n

End of side one.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Side 2<\/p>\n

Part 5<\/strong> (continued)<\/em><\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> No, I don\u2019t feel like it\u2019s personal to me. I think that some people have greater abilities to handle things than other<\/i> people, and I think that people release them in different ways<\/i>. (Pause) You know, I mean, I\u2014 I don\u2019t think that everybody re\u2014 reacts<\/i> to the same thing the same way.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah. (Pause) Maybe.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> And uh\u2014 (Pause) You know, I just cannot\u2014 I mean, I just cannot sit up like that all night long, I just can\u2019t<\/i>. I don\u2019t<\/i> see any purpose in it, for one thing.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Well, there is.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> Well, maybe there is. There is not any purpose in it for me<\/i>, okay? I mean, I just don\u2019t see<\/i> any purpose in it. I mean, I think that anything that we had to do, could be done in su\u2014 in such time that a person could go<\/i> to work and feel like they have all their faculties, you know, and produce, and be a productive person, but hell, it\u2019s a wonder I\u2019ve had<\/i> a job for the last year. When I really look back on the kind of shit that, you know, I was responsible for, and how I just drug along and produced just bare minimum. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Well, I mean, it\u2019s not as if, you know, you\u2019re in a unique situation, I think there\u2019s others that are in the same position, but like you say, maybe they react different. I don\u2019t know. Uh\u2014 fortunately, I haven\u2019t had to hold an outside job.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> Yeah, well, you know, I think that maybe people look at it differently, Mike, when um, you know, I mean, when you step out\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> I just know that, you know, there\u2019s (laughs) most\u2014 I suppose most people on their jobs\u2014 I\u2019m probably one of the few lucky ones. (Pause) \u2018Course, I don\u2019t like (clears throat) dealing with the public, you know, the way I have to either because s\u2014 I don\u2019t\u2014 I don\u2019t enjoy having to play all the games that the mayor gone through, and everybody\u2019s like that.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> Yeah, well, I\u2014 you know, I mean, I can appreciate that. I just feel that I<\/i> know, you know, what I think is right for me, to some extent, and I want<\/i> that, you know. I mean, I want<\/i> to be able to be a sane human being, and I think\u2014 I don\u2019t think that that\u2019s asking a lot, you know, and uh\u2014 I mean, I don\u2019t think\u2014 I mean, I think a lot of people are\u2014 probably feel quite the same, if not worse, but they just keep sitting there going along, and all of a sudden, they walk off and leave, and nobody ever understands why<\/i>. You know, and it\u2019s for the\u2014 the reason that, you know, you\u2019re looking at right now, Mike, is that I\u2019m trying to say to you what my problem is, and you\u2019re saying to me, how my problem\u2019s going to affect everybody else. So that gives me the heavy of, do you want your problem to affect everybody else, or do you want to have the problem all by yourself and continue?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Well, I\u2014 I\u2014 Well, this is just personal, Kay, I\u2014 I shouldn\u2019t be expressing to you (unintelligible phrase), I won\u2019t continue, but I just think there\u2019s a ways of, of uh\u2014 there\u2019s ways of dealing with things. I think we\u2014 we give ourselves\u2014 I think we let ourselves go as, as far as we want, I\u2014 I think we uh, uh, you know, feel that\u2014 that we each have uh, limits that we set ourselves as far as how much pain we\u2019re willing to endure, when we all<\/i> could uh, go much farther. That\u2019s all I\u2019m saying.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> Oh, you\u2019re probably right. (Pause) You\u2019re probably right.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> And so, it\u2014 it gets down to a matter of uh, character<\/i>, for all<\/i> of us.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> Well, you know, maybe that\u2019s the problem, I don\u2019t have enough character.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> I don\u2019t know\u2014 I don\u2019t know\u2014 I\u2019m just saying that\u2019s, you know, my personal\u2014<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> No, I\u2014 No, I\u2014 I know that, and I\u2019m just saying, you know, to you, I\u2019m not<\/i> taking it personal, I mean\u2014 I mean, I don\u2019t want you to feel that you can\u2019t express yourself to me and that, you know, that means I\u2019m going to run off someplace and hide. That\u2019s not true. I can accept what you say. Maybe I just don\u2019t have enough character. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Well. Anyway, I\u2019ve already said (unintelligible phrase).<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> No, I\u2014 I agree with what you said. But I think that we have a right to set our own limits, you know, and I think I have that right.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> I don\u2019t know that we do, Kay. I don\u2019t know that we do.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> Well\u2014 Okay, Mike. I have a right to set mine, okay?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Well, you\u2014 you do, if you give yourself the right.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> Well, that\u2019s what I\u2019m doing, is giving myself the right.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> But I\u2014 I think\u2014 I think\u2014 I think uh, you know, you know, what\u2014\u00a0what\u2014\u00a0why should we have uh, any more rights than, than, than most uh, oppressed people, who don\u2019t eat, who don\u2019t\u2014 you know, who just are in constant suffering?<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> Uh\u2014 I don\u2019t know why I should have the right. Mike. I really don\u2019t. I just know that, by my\u2014\u00a0by my, you know, having a nervous breakdown, and you know, n\u2014 not being able to deal with what I see as a normal, everyday responsibility of taking on your responsibility as a\u2014\u00a0you know, on a job, by not being able to do that, I don\u2019t see that as, as making that any better, either. In my opinion, I don\u2019t see it as making it any better.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Okay, well\u2014 I mean, if\u2014 if you agreed with what I said before, then, you know, uh\u2014 (pause)<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> Yeah. Well\u2014 That\u2019s, you know\u2014 I agreed with what you said. Maybe it\u2019s just\u2014 I mean, I just don\u2019t have the character<\/i> that it takes. (Pause) And I mean, that\u2019s uh\u2014 I<\/i> accept that. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Well, I don\u2019t know what to say, Kay. Just\u2014 I\u2014 \u2018cause I feel that uh, (Pause) I feel that\u2014 (Pause) I don\u2019t want to say this in a way that, that makes it uh, you think that I\u2019m just blowing smoke up your rear but uh, I mean, you have a lot to offer. You have a lot of uh, unique potential that, you know, could be utilized as far as PR capacity, and uh, I\u2019d hate to see you fall back because uh, I know that that can be utilized, and that it\u2019s going to be needed more and more up until the time that we leave. And if you are less<\/i> involved, then we can\u2019t draw on that, because it, you know, it would be a matter of utilizing those who are in the planning.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> I\u2014 I can ap\u2014 I can appreciate that, and I\u2014 I mean, I\u2014 I can appreciate what you\u2019re saying. I know that the people that are in the planning will be the people that are used for that. And uh\u2014 (Pause) You know, uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> All I\u2014<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> What can I say?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Well, I would just like to see you\u2014 You know, again, this is personal, I\u2019m not passing along a message, I was just asked to call and simply ask where you\u2019re at. But uh, you know, I would like to see you just uh\u2014 attempt to keep the\u2014 your level of commitment and, and try<\/i> to cope with it, and if it doesn\u2019t work out, it doesn\u2019t work out.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> (Firmly) I\u2019m not going to do that, Mike. I\u2019m not going\u2014 I\u2019m not staying up any more all night.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Because I\u2014 I think you\u2014<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> I\u2019ve made my mind up about that, okay?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> I\u2019m not going to do that. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> (Resigns) All right.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> I mean, you know, I can\u2019t even take my medication and stuff. You know, when I come to church, I have to be aware and alert, okay? So I can\u2019t take my medication while I\u2019m there. I just have to go through, you know, trying to control whatever<\/i> it is that I have to have control during that period of time. Which I\u2019ve done very well at doing that. But also, a lot of it has to do with rest<\/i>. You know? And not being just really, you know, bogged down with a lot of things that, you know, basically is what got you in the situation that you\u2019re in. (Pause) You know, I mean, I don\u2019t\u2014 I don\u2019t know what to say to you. I mean, I\u2014 (sighs) I mean, I hear, I hear what you\u2019re saying to me, but nobody<\/i>, you know, I mean\u2014 when I really was begging people to take some of this shit off me, so that I would\u2019ve never gotten to that point, nobody wanted to hear it. Nobody would listen. And nobody ever does, until you\u2019re pushed against the fucking wall, and you can\u2019t breathe, and all you can do is come out screaming. (Pause) You know, I don\u2019t understand what it takes for people to stop and listen to people around there, why nobody recognizes when people are pushed too far. I don\u2019t understand that.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Well, I\u2014 I do this\u2014 You know, I thought uh, I was pushed too far, too. I really did. I mean, there\u2019s uh, times when I come out of meetings, emotionally devastated, and uh, I wanted to scream. And again, uh, well, I just decided I was going to try again, that, you know, that I\u2014 I just uh, felt like, well, what the hell, you know, why should I be any different, uh, you know, what\u2019s\u2014 what\u2019s my life uh, worth? I\u2019m nothing special, \u2018cause I\u2019ve certainly blown enough<\/i> things. I fuck up every day. So\u2014<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> (Emotional) Okay. I understand that, Mike. Okay? All I\u2019m saying is that, you know, I mean, I think\u2014 I don\u2019t think that I\u2019m special, okay? Maybe I act like I think that I\u2019m special, and I\u2019m sure in a lot of people\u2019s opinion, that\u2019s what they think, you know, but I do<\/i> think that I have a right to make some decisions about my life, and about my health. If other people are not concerned about my health, I think I have a right to be concerned about it.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Okay. Okay. Okay, well.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> And that\u2019s\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> If I said what I was going to say, it would just lead to more.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> No, I mean, if\u2014 you\u2019re not\u2014 all I\u2019m just saying to you is that you\u2019re not making me hostile, I\u2019m just telling you how I feel.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Okay. I\u2014 Okay, all I\u2014 all I\u2019m saying\u2014 I\u2019m just saying that uh, I don\u2019t feel that, you know\u2014 When we\u2019re involved in a revolution, we lose personal rights. You know, we don\u2019t have the right to decide what, you know, how far we can commit ourselves, how far we can go, how much, you know, of pain, that, you know, limits of pain or something, because uh, because there are others who uh, go through much worse, who aren\u2019t even in here. The people that we\u2019re trying to rescue. (Pause) So I don\u2019t think we have that right, Kay. I don\u2019t think we have it. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> Well, you know, I\u2014 (Sighs) Maybe we don\u2019t, Mike. I mean, uh, maybe we don\u2019t, I don\u2019t know. I just know that I\u2019ve, you know, I\u2019ve been away and I did have s\u2014 some time, you know, because I needed it, if I didn\u2019t go away, that I\u2019d be, you know, in church on Wednesday, you know, the whole thing, all over again, and still not being able to really settle down and get my head<\/i> together, \u2018cause my mind was really screwed<\/i>, you know? And I\u2014 I\u2019m just saying that, I don\u2019t want to go<\/i> that route anymore, Mike. Now I don\u2019t know what got me there, but I know s\u2014 some of the things that got me there was the fact that I had too much responsibility.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Oh. You know, Kay, before I came here, I\u2014 I couldn\u2019t have been more of uh, uh, a honky. I couldn\u2019t have been more of one. And n\u2014 now that I\u2019m here\u2014 you know, if\u2014 if I<\/i> can identify with this, and understand why we have to do what we\u2019re doing, and what it means to people who are really destitute, why can\u2019t you<\/i>?<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> Mike, I\u2014 yeah. I\u2014 I\u2014 I realize why you\u2019re there, you know, uh\u2014 And I also realize that I\u2019ve worked 18 years in my life. I don\u2019t know how long you worked before you came there, you know, uh, but I have<\/i>. And I\u2019m continuing to work, you know, and I\u2014 I think I\u2019ve done what I thought was right. Or I tried to, you know, but again, you know, I think that if\u2014 if you\u2019re there, and you\u2019re there for what you say that you\u2019re there for, and you can\u2019t hear people screaming around you, how in the hell you gonna hear them from afar? I mean, I\u2014 I don\u2019t understand that.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> You mean, people outside?<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> I mean people outside that you\u2019re supposed to be concerned about, if you can\u2019t look at people right around you, and see them falling apart, and stop and help them, or stop and want to suggest that something\u2019s done<\/i> to help them, then, you know, to me, I\u2014 you know, I lose sight<\/i> on the target outside if you can\u2019t see what\u2019s going on right around you.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Well, I think, that\u2019s where I\u2014 you know, I\u2014 if\u2014 if we\u2014 if we keep\u2014 if we kept our eyes focused on what\u2019s outside, I think\u2014 or I don\u2019t think we\u2019d get the internal individual problems that we have inside. (Pause) But I\u2014 I\u2019m\u2014 no, I shouldn\u2019t\u2014 I\u2014 I really don\u2019t feel I\u2014 I\u2019m probably uh, out of line, because I\u2019m\u2014 I\u2019m just uh, (Pause) you know, I\u2019m just blowing off, I think, Kay, so I better uh, let you go.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> Yeah, okay, uh\u2014 (Pause) Fine. (Short nervous laugh) You know, I don\u2019t know what to\u2014 what to say, I think I, you know, I think I just said what I had to say when (unintelligible word)\u2014 I don\u2019t know how it\u2019s gonna, you know, work out, and I hope it does<\/i> work out, because I really don\u2019t want to stop coming<\/i>, you know, but (Pause) I know what I want to do.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah. Okay, well. I may be back to you anyway.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> Well, what are you suggesting, that I, you know, I wait for you to get back to me or\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Uh, frankly, I don\u2019t know. I really don\u2019t. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> (unintelligible word)<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> What do you suggest?<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> No<\/i>, I\u2014 I\u2014 I mean I\u2019m asking you, \u2018cause I was on my way out of the door<\/i>, so I didn\u2019t know what you want.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Well, you\u2019re not going to return to (unintelligible word), Kay, that\u2019s for sure.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> (Pause) No, I mean\u2014 I\u2019m not even\u2014 God, I don\u2019t know how I\u2019m coming off, but I mean I didn\u2019t mean to even suggest that that was going to happen. I was just saying that I didn\u2019t know whether you wanted me to, you know, stay here until you, you know, contacted back and talked to me or\u2014<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Oh, no, no, it wouldn\u2019t\u2014 it wouldn\u2019t be that soon.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> You know\u2014 Okay. I didn\u2019t know. So that\u2019s why I asked.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> I\u2019ll see you.<\/p>\n

Kay:<\/b> All right. Bye-bye.<\/p>\n

Phone hangs up.<\/p>\n

End of tape<\/strong><\/p>\n

Tape originally posted April 2002<\/b><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee, III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you. To return to the Tape Index, click here. To listen to MP3, click here. To read the Tape Summary, click here. (Note: This tape was one of the 53 tapes initially withheld from public disclosure.) Part […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":6,"featured_media":0,"parent":27291,"menu_order":451,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-27534","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27534","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/6"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=27534"}],"version-history":[{"count":6,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27534\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":59992,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27534\/revisions\/59992"}],"up":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27291"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=27534"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}