{"id":27537,"date":"2013-06-16T00:20:53","date_gmt":"2013-06-16T00:20:53","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/alternativejonestown.com\/?page_id=27537"},"modified":"2024-10-25T10:12:00","modified_gmt":"2024-10-25T17:12:00","slug":"q683","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=27537","title":{"rendered":"Q683 Transcript"},"content":{"rendered":"

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.<\/strong><\/i><\/p>\n

To return to the Tape Index, click here.<\/a> To listen to MP3, click here<\/a>.
\nTo read the Tape Summary, click here<\/a>.<\/p>\n

[Editor’s note<\/strong>: The Temple’s transcript of Part 3<\/a> of this tape appears here<\/a>.]<\/em><\/p>\n

Part 1: Conversation between Tim Carter and Delancey Street Foundation<\/a> <\/strong><\/p>\n

Phone rings.<\/i><\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> Good evening. Delancey Street Foundation. May I help you?<\/p>\n

Carter: <\/b>Yes, you may. My name is Tim Carter, I\u2019m one of Reverend uh, Jim Jones\u2019 assistants, and I\u2019d like to speak with uh, John Maher, if I could please.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> (Pause) Uh, Mr. Maher isn\u2019t in right now, uh, could I take a message?<\/p>\n

Carter: <\/b>Um, yes, it was regarding ah, a service tomorrow, and he mentioned he might be able to stop by, so I was calling to uh, confirm that with\u2013 But I wanted to speak to him also. Do you have any idea when he might be back in?<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> Uh\u2013 You want to hold on for a moment? Let me uh, call upstairs, see if I can find out.<\/p>\n

Carter: <\/b>Sure. Sure.<\/p>\n

Placed on hold for several moments<\/em><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

\n

Part 2: Jones dictating letter during conversation <\/strong><\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>We\u2019ve brought out in our Peoples Forum<\/i> with 600,000 circulation. We thought it was an injustice. (Long pause) Some sister talking about that Catholic Church that was supporting us. We should (unintelligible under other conversation) take money from the Catholics, you hear last night. She took money from Catholics, and they said, ha\u2013 who\u2019s praised you in your church and your suffering from this (unintelligible under other conversation) pulpit.<\/p>\n

Male 1:<\/b> I guess a lot of \u2018em don\u2019t have no choice. Some of them (Unintelligible word)\u2013<\/p>\n

Male 2:<\/b> (Unintelligible) \u2018Cause they gone wish they had a (unintelligible)\u2013<\/p>\n

Tape turned off for several seconds<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Something like that (unintelligible under other conversation).<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Should\u2019ve always remembered our teaching about nonviolence.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (unintelligible under Prokes) \u2013always remember. You should\u2019ve\u2013 you should\u2019ve remembered our teachings. Practice of nonviolence. It\u2019s too bad you didn\u2019t\u2013 you quit visiting us a year ago. You know. It\u2019s too bad you quit visiting a year ago, \u2018cause someone has certainly been\u2013 Someone must\u2019ve given you awful<\/i> advice to have reacted that way to an off\u2013 to an officer. (Pause) We certainly are praying for you, and our love goes out to you\u2013 to you. Uh. Uh, if there are any other ministry in any other church that you want to visit you or to write you\u2013 (Pause) Did you have membership in any other church after you quit coming to ours? (Pause) S\u2013 Something like that, you know, that we\u2013 we uh\u2013 (Pause) See, little things build\u2013 Uh, When we\u2013 When we told you had to quit certain things, quit using marijuana, little things lead to big things. (Pause) Little things lead\u2013 When we told<\/i> you you had to quit with marijuana, you couldn\u2019t remain in our church\u2013 (unintelligible under other conversation) (Murmurs)<\/p>\n

\n

<\/a>Part 3: Cecil Williams TV interview in Jim Jones, recorded off monitors within studio <\/strong><\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> (unintelligible intro) talk about uh, people<\/i> who are not only doing things, but people who are really<\/i> bringing about change in our society. One cannot talk about it at all<\/i>, unless one mentions the name, the Reverend Jim Jones. Jim Jones, who is the pastor of the Peoples Temple Christian Church, is charismatic<\/i>, is uh, unique<\/i>, is serious about what he\u2019s doing, is an excellent spokesman, a, a great articulator\u2013 What\u2013\u00a0What\u2013 What else can I say about you, Jim Jones, except the fact that I\u2019m delighted that you\u2019re on our show today.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Thank you very much.<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> And we\u2019re going to be talking to this\u2013 this man, and what he\u2019s<\/i> about, as soon as we come back.<\/p>\n

Music. Pause.<\/em><\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> Reverend Jim Jones, Peoples Temple Christian Church, uh, you know, I really don\u2019t uh, I don\u2019t sit and talk with uh, personalities uh, on a one-to-one basis that often, but when I do<\/i>, I try to do is bring to you<\/i>, the viewers, the very\u2013 the very most important uh, people, uh, in\u2013\u00a0in regards to this kind of thing. And I\u2019ve brought to you a minister, you<\/i> know. That\u2019s something that\u2019s very difficult<\/i> for me to do, unless he\u2019s a unique<\/i> minister, and here he is. (Laughs) Here\u2019s the man today. Jim, uh, I\u2019m amazed by you. I\u2019m\u2013 I\u2019m\u2013 I\u2019m uh, uh\u2013 you know, I really many times can\u2019t find words, \u2018cause you are sometimes indescribable. You\u2019re a very important person, a very powerful person. You are a prophet in\u2013 in\u2013\u00a0in\u2013\u00a0in his time, and ahead<\/i> of his time too. Jim, uh, how did you come about doing what you\u2019re doing, starting what you\u2019re starting, moving in the direction that you\u2019re moving in?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I saw the need, I guess, and responded to it the best I could. It always seems insignificant, Cecil, compared to the vast needs around you. But that\u2019s how I got started, just looking at the need.<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> And when he talks about looking at the needs, uh, uh, you\u2019ve, of course, uh, related to a lot of needs, not only<\/i> in\u2013 in northern California, and in the state<\/i> of California, but needs throughout the country, as well as needs uh, throughout uh, the world<\/i>. We\u2019re going to be talking about some<\/i> of those needs, but let\u2019s\u2013\u00a0let\u2019s focus in on why\u2013 why do you, uh, go in the direction you\u2019re going? Why\u2013 I mean, why did you say, look, we gotta meet some needs and go about getting at those needs.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Which direction? I\u2019m\u2013\u00a0I feel like I\u2019m the jack of all trades sometimes, and master of none. Which direction (unintelligible under Williams)\u2013<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> All right\u2013 All right\u2013 Let\u2019s\u2013\u00a0Yeah\u2013 Let\u2019s, let\u2019s just talk about one in particular, uh, Jim. One has to do with the fact that uh\u2013 First of all, one of the\u2013 the things that you do, is when it comes to issues, and especially<\/i> when it comes to defending people who\u2013\u00a0who have to face injustices, you are always there, one way or the other. I think about uh, for instance uh, the situation in regards to the communications industry, the press.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, I thought\u2013 I thought [President Richard] Nixon was coming down severely<\/i> upon the press, and of course, without the Fourth and Fifth Estate, where are<\/i> we? It has exposed certainly as uh, clarified very clearly in the Watergate situation. We were concerned<\/i> about the repression that this represented, so we felt that we had to get out<\/i> there and represent different newsmen who were under attack because of their sources<\/i>. And I guess our support, funding spread all over the United States, [reporter Bill] Farr first and then the Fresno Bee<\/i>, and then we gave monies to various news associations. We\u2019re very concerned about a free press.<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> Some even here in the Bay Area.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Oh yes. Yes.<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> Uh, in regards to the free press, what were you really trying to say? That it should take place, that in fact, uh, any<\/i> information that press uh, feels that it must keep confidential, it should be given that right and that privilege to do so.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>It has<\/i> to, because of the intimidations<\/i> that we\u2019ve seen in such instances as Watergate. The press has<\/i> to be able to keep their sources<\/i>, and I thought that our whole democratic fabric<\/i> was being threatened. Not only myself, but our congregation here of 8000. It wasn\u2019t something unique to me. We\u2019re very much concerned that the press has the right to moner\u2013 monitor society and be able to uh, regulate excesses or help to bring conscience to the community. We just felt there was nothing less\u2013\u00a0left for us to do<\/i>. We had to respond<\/i>. Because it seemed that Mr. Nixon was uh, on a tirade<\/i> against the press.<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> And yet there\u2019re times, Jim, that uh, you and I and others<\/i> uh, are approached by the press and uh, and they do disservice<\/i> to us. <\/p>\n

Jones<\/strong>: Some. Every once in a while. <\/p>\n

Williams<\/strong>: We are misquoted (laughs), we are taken out of context and that kind of thing. How do we deal with that kind of thing, you know, when it happens to you, \u2018cause you\u2013 you\u2019re often in the press. You\u2019re often quoted. You\u2019re often talked about.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I don\u2019t know what one can do. I guess we have to take our chances for the negative aspects in order to allow the press to be free, we have to take the chance that there\u2019ll be a few that will practice yellow journalism, and I think there are a few, and I know one that got us both, so uh, I don\u2019t\u2013 I don\u2019t get too much worried about it, as long as they print my\u2013 as the old saying, if they can print my name right in the paper. But we have to take the chance to the excess. I think (stumbles over words), it hurts<\/i> when press is not responsible, and I have seen that in your case, and in one case, I\u2019ve seen it with\u2013 uh, with myself<\/i>. But still, the press is the bulwark of democracy.<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> Jim, you\u2019ve taken a chance. You\u2019ve taken a chance, \u2018cause you\u2019ve got all kinds of people uh, in the Peoples Temple Christian Church. How far does your\u2013\u00a0does your constituency uh, extend? Uh, in how many places?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, we have 8000 in San Francisco. Then we have uh, a church that I\u2019ve founded\u2013\u00a0We\u2019re all related with the Disciples of Christ, which is a two-million denomination. And then I have 10,000 members in our Los Angeles parish. I don\u2019t know the breakdown, in Fresno, and Bakersfield, and Sacramento, but it\u2019s pretty sizeable. And then Redwood Valley, California, we have a pretty sizeable congregation up north in\u2013 in uh, around the Ukiah area.<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> Why did you begin to work with various racial and ethnic groups, trying to bring them together?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>It seems to me that\u2013\u00a0of course, it\u2019s just right<\/i> that we be together. And I thought uh, of all<\/i> places, if Jesus Christ did not teach inclusiveness<\/i>, he said, we were our brother\u2019s keeper, and God is no respecter of persons. And certainly I believe in the voluntary type of approach to social problems. We are somewhat Jeffersonian, that the government that governs least governs best. And if the church<\/i> doesn\u2019t take its responsibility, where are we?<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> Umm.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Seems to me that the church had to uh, to initiate responsibility here.<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> Well, you\u2019ve taken a great deal of responsibility. For instance, uh, let\u2019s talk uh, just a little bit about uh, some of the things that you\u2019re engaged in, in regards to the treatment of people. One in particular, drug<\/i> addicts, uh, people that are strung out on, on dope, uh, uh, things like that. Wha\u2013\u00a0What do you do, Jim? What\u2013 What have you come up on in regards to that kind of issue? How\u2013 How do you get at that kind of issue with people?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>In our situation, we bring them into our homes. My wife and I have had many in our home. Love. Just a little bit of love. You don\u2019t have to have a great deal of professional skill. Our recidivism rate is very low<\/i> on heroin, for instance. But the\u2013 the savvy uh, professional know-how, I don\u2019t\u2013\u00a0I don\u2019t think we have so much in that area. We have some psychologists working with us, but I\u2019d say the great achievement\u2019s been uh, made\u2013\u00a0uh, be\u2013\u00a0been made by the\u2013 the nuclear family<\/i>, where someone will just take someone into their home. Of course, those few days of withdrawal, we have facilities, and we go through that, and that\u2019s a hell indescribable.<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> Yeah. Yeah. Withdrawal, I guess, is a very difficult thing, isn\u2019t it? Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Terrible. Terrible.<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> Takes you a lot of your time too, doesn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Great deal. Great deal.<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> Uh, Jim, you got involved in one particular case of uh, of a black young woman.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Marie Duckett.<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> Marie\u2013 That\u2019s right. Uh, tell us a little bit about, uh, about her and about what happened.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>She was an amazing person. She came hooked on a habit of about four hundred dollars a day<\/i>, and of course she was involved in every type of crime that she could possibly get into<\/i> to maintain<\/i> that habit. And as she went along\u2013\u00a0course, she\u2013 it was no\u2013 no time, \u2018cause she completely rehabilitated herself<\/i>. And I think a lot of it\u2013 I have to keep the emphasis on the individual. Uh, we gave her support, acceptance, and she had a very prestigious job. But we found out later<\/i> that she had actually uh, left probation, she uh\u2013 she had been a fugitive<\/i> uh, from two<\/i> different uh, senten\u2013\u00a0sentences, and uh\u2013\u00a0when\u2013\u00a0when she brought this to our attention, the church decided, well, we\u2019re going to get in there and fight to straighten up her record, and we were able to achieve<\/i> that by solidarity and appealing to the probation department, and the judge was most sympathetic, he uh, uh, allowed her probation to continue, and I think it\u2019s going to be finished about April seventh\u2013 about uh, May<\/i> seventh, I believe.<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> Mmm. You know, uh\u2013 (Clears throat) I\u2019m just gonna move along with you here, because we got so much to cover, uh, Jim. Uh\u2013 let\u2019s talk about other people that you\u2019ve given support, other causes that you\u2019ve given support. Uh, for instance, Angela Davis [University of California professor who was fired over her membership in the Communist Party].<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Indeed.<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> Uh, you did support her.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Early.<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> Why<\/i> did you feel that you had to support Angela Davis?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I believe that when one person\u2019s rights are affected, everyone<\/i> is. We supported a John Bircher<\/i> on one occasion. It seemed to me that Angela, uh, was the victim of political oppression<\/i>. I don\u2019t care whether she\u2019s a communist or if she\u2019s a member of the Nazi party. I believe in the right\u2013 the First Amendment rights. I think that\u2019s very essential. Wasn\u2019t it Pastor [Martin] Niemoller that said when they came for the communist, I did nothing, because I wasn\u2019t a communist. They came for the Jews, and I had typical Protestant prejudices, and I didn\u2019t react. When they came for the Catholics and the trade unions, the same type of response. When they got around to coming after me, there was nobody left to\u2013 to defend my ci\u2013\u00a0to defend<\/i> him. And I think uh, there\u2019s enlightened self-interest. I\u2013\u00a0I\u2013\u00a0I doubt\u2013 I don\u2019t believe we can restrict anyone\u2019s<\/i> right of freedom of speech.<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> Mmm. Mmm. Well, you know, now, that puts you in a category of being\u2013\u00a0you know, you could easily be called a communist, just by supporting the rights<\/i> of a communist.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I know what they call me. I don\u2019t really care.<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> (Laughs) Jim, uh, you\u2019ve been involved in\u2013 in a more recent<\/i> uh, defense and\u2013 and\u2013 and uh, standing up for, for a person, namely uh, [Native American activist] Dennis Banks. Now<\/i>, before we get into that, I just got a sign from the man who says, Take a break. And so we\u2019re gonna take a break. We\u2019ll come back and talk to Jim Jones about Dennis Banks in just a minute.<\/p>\n

Music. Tape edit. Music.<\/i><\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> Uh, we\u2019re talking to Jim Jones, the Reverend Jim Jones from the uh, Peoples Temple Christian Church. A vast number of people that he\u2019s brought together, of all<\/i> colors, all ethnic backgrounds, all socio-economic levels. Jim, uh, you have been working very hard to uh, to guarantee at least uh, Dennis uh some, some equity uh, in regards to uh, what he\u2019s going through as it relates to his extradition. Uh, what<\/i> are you doing in regards to Dennis Banks at this point? What<\/i> have you done? I\u2013 I read\u00a0a, a very fascinating, uh, uh, little story not too long ago about something that you did in bringing his family and to other things. Tell us about that.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>His wife, Kamook, you know, was arrested in another state, and uh, and\u2013 and suffered a great deal of maltreatment. Her baby was born behind bars, they named her Iron Door Woman and uh, she wasn\u2019t even allowed the normal process of her breasts to be uh, uh, for the milk to be taken care of, so that she developed infections. And she\u2019d been there for four months, and we felt as a congregation, we had to respond<\/i>. Dennis Banks is a good<\/i> man. We\u2019ve helped a lot of people, Cecil. And when they get their health, they\u2019re gone, but the moment we helped this man \u2013 I think we raised $20,000 as a bond for her<\/i> \u2013 he came back time and time again, responding with such graciousness and\u2013 and warmth and compassion. He wept before a congregation of several thousand, and it was really spontaneous. This is a good man. I think [reporter James] Schermerhorn said in the Examiner<\/i>, that uh, all<\/i> of his witnesses, and even his counsel, had been intimidated back in the state where he had come from, and\u2013 even the Iowa Methodist\u2013\u00a0Iowa Methodist conference<\/i> put up his bond, and they said he had no other choice<\/i> but to leave, because there was even threats<\/i> put out on every one<\/i> of those witnesses, and most<\/i> people have the feeling\u2013 in one of the, I think, one of the district attorneys said that if he comes back, the best\u2013\u00a0He said the best resolution for the Indian movement is a bullet in Dennis Banks\u2019 head. And we have to face the fact that the one that was arrested with him, Annie, I\u2019ve forgotten her last name [American Indian Movement (AIM) activist Anna Mae Pictou Aquash], they said she died of exposure, but there was pressure brought to bear, and she was exhumed, and they found a bullet at close range. And it looks pretty ba\u2013 much like a conspiracy.<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> See, that\u2019s<\/i> why you\u2019re so important, because uh, you<\/i> get out there, uh, when the\u2013 when the\u2013\u00a0when the water is rough, uh, you see, you get out there when the wind<\/i> is blowing, uh, very strong, uh, maybe uh, currents against<\/i> people. And you<\/i> uh, in many ways, and the people that you\u2013 you work with, help change that current and that tide, in regards to, to the lives of people. I\u2013 I want to deal with that in just a few minutes, but I want\u2013 let\u2013\u00a0I want to get at some\u2013\u00a0You did something in the Tenderloin area for the senior citizens. They were about to lose protection, uh, you know. Uh, what happened in that situation? That\u2019s my<\/i> area now, you know, that\u2019s where I\u2019m located. And yet you come down there, uh, get me in on the \u2013 on the\u2013\u00a0on the problems that we face down there.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, you get into problems everywhere so so we thought, we can help you out a little bit.<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> Thank you. (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Uh, this<\/i> uh, situation touched us. Here was an inter-racial group of ex-Vietnam veterans who had a\u2013\u00a0a warm<\/i> relationship, a\u2013 a deeply<\/i> warm, family relationship with the predominantly white citizens, who had no love in their life, couldn\u2019t even get \u2013 some of them \u2013\u00a0to give them some groceries, and out of their salary<\/i>, their meager\u2013\u00a0meager salaries, they were helping support<\/i> these senior citizens in that area. And so again, the church felt that they should respond. The program was about to go down the tubes, and we came up with the six thousand dollars to tide them over until they got funded. And now they\u2019re funded, and I\u2019m very happy that that was one of the successes.<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> There\u2019s another thing I want to say to our viewers today also, is that uh, on November thirtieth last year, uh, when I<\/i> uh, had uh, it was sort of like a culmination of my ten years in San Francisco, and we called it uh, uh, the uh, uh, change<\/i> agents coming together, celebration for change, at that particular time we \u2013 the Center for Self-Determination, a new program that we<\/i> began at Glide \u2013\u00a0uh, had a, had a benefit, and it was Jim Jones<\/i> who brought 1500 people to that benefit, who bought tickets<\/i>, and, and uh, what, six\u2013\u00a0close to 6000 dollars worth of tickets to that, to that benefit. It was this man<\/i> who\u2013 and his people that did that. Jim, let\u2013 let\u2019s go on. Uh, you know, I want to publicly say that to the people about what you\u2019ve done for me<\/i>, too, my man. But not only there, just being a brother, and\u2013 and being a close friend, where we can talk with each other.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, I wasn\u2019t doing it for you personally, Cecil, I think that the community has to realize that if they are<\/i> concerned about tyranny, communistic or fascistic, they better support groups such as yourself and get involved in everything, and show<\/i> the people that feel alienated that they have a chance to work within society. So, it wasn\u2019t just a personal friendship. We approve of the things you\u2019re doing.<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> Thank you, my man. Thank you. Uh, let\u2019s talk about something that you\u2019ve got going uh, in other countries. South America, for instance.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes.<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> Uh, you\u2019ve got quite a\u2013\u00a0quite a resourceful uh, relationship, and uh, some very fascinating<\/i> things taking place down there. What\u2013 What are you engaged in down there?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>We have an agricultural mission there on several thousand acres that\u2019ve been granted<\/i> us, and uh, we\u2019ve acquired from the uh, Republic of Guyana. And we\u2019ve been\u2013\u00a0For instance, last week, we brought in 60,000 pounds of yams<\/i>. That goes a long way to help with the poverty. Plus<\/i> it\u2019s not a paternalistic-type of Christian mission. We give employment to about 200 people. And again, that\u2013 that helps to alter the ugly American image.<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> Yeah. Sure.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>And\u2013\u00a0and\u2013 and uh, combat the forces of tyranny, right or left.<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> Um-hmm. Yeah. And that<\/i> uh, that kind of uh, response, uh, certainly means a lot, I\u2019m sure. Where you say, you know, it\u2019s important to give jobs to people, it\u2019s not a maternalistic kind of response of relationship, but you see, that\u2019s the way you are<\/i>. You do that constantly. Uh, you\u2013 you\u2019ve made<\/i> your stand. You keep<\/i> making your stand. You will continue<\/i> to make your stand. You know, the interesting thing about this man is the fact that uh, that you have a lot of uh, resources, uh, uh, in regards to taking care of uh, of uh, not only people, but animals. What do you do that, Jim? Why did you get interested in animals there?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, I\u2019m subjective and very sensitive about animals, but I think sensitive to li\u2013\u00a0to life, there\u2019s some<\/i> sort of correlation, I wouldn\u2019t want to generalize. I\u2019ve notice people who are hardened to animals often\u2013 It carries over, and they\u2019re hardened to humans. Of course, you have strange contradictions, where someone will give all sorts of regard, as Adolf Hitler did, for his animal, and have no regards for human beings. But we feel that you have to have sensitivity for the total life, uh, and\u2013 and\u2013 and we\u2019re concerned that uh, we take in as many animals as we can and neuter them \u2013 there\u2019s a terrible overpopulation and such cruel treatment. I am sure you\u2019re familiar with the way they\u2019re exterminated, some of them are crowded into a vat, or a gas chamber meant for one, they throw 16, 17 dogs in this kind of a situation. We just\u2013 We\u2019re just opposed to cruelty. We\u2013 We like to help wherever there\u2019s need, and there\u2019s a great need with animals. And so, we find ourselves in every facet<\/i> of life, we have geriatric homes, we have a children\u2019s home for retarded chil\u2013 for retarded youngsters, uh, I can\u2013 and we have a free legal services, a medical examination facility under doctors\u2019 auspices, physical therapist and nurse practitioners and R.N.s, particularly senior citizens in the lower socio-economic income level, they have a time with arthritis, and we have\u2013 we\u2019re equipped with (unintelligible medical term) ultrasonic uh, treatment, that we\u2013<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> Do you treat everybody?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Oh yes. Anybody\u2013<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> You wouldn\u2019t hold back on anybody.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>No, uh, there\u2019s no membership requirement.<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>No.<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> You don\u2019t have\u2013 They don\u2019t have to co\u2013\u00a0beco\u2013 become members, nor do they have to start uh, uh, you know, uh, following<\/i> some kind of a discipline that you, you know\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>No, no, no.<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> \u2013put on their heads.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I don\u2019t\u2013\u00ad I don\u2019t believe in this business of having to say a prayer before you get in\u2013<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> Yeah, right. (Laughs) That\u2019s<\/i> what I was getting at, but you caught\u2013\u00a0(Laughs) Exactly. Jim, uh, you do have a great<\/i> ministry. Uh, one thing uh, that, that\u2019s involved in it, has to do with uh, something that uh, that uh, you and I call a healing ministry. Both of us. And a lot<\/i> of people talk about the healing ministry. I had a sister who had cancer 12 years ago, uh, she was operated on, the doctors gave her uh, said in three<\/i> months she would die. My sister is still alive, teaching school, back to health. It was cancer of the pancreas, by the way, very serious.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Considered incurable.<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> Con\u2013 considered incurable. She\u2019s\u2013\u00a0she\u2019s\u2013\u00a0she\u2019s fine today. Uh, she had a lot of faith. She said, I will not<\/i>, I will not<\/i> give up at this point. What\u2013 talk a little about that.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>There\u2019s a place indeed for a responsible and sane spiritual healing. It must<\/i> be in conjunction with medical science, because we know there\u2019s no panacea. We\u2019ve had similar remissions. I was just thinking while you talked, of a lovely Russian lady who, uh, her\u2013 the metastasis of cancer was so thorough<\/i> that each<\/i> of her lymph glands was swollen like a ball<\/i>. And uh, similarly, she had faith. Give<\/i> purpose. There\u2019s a tremendous dimension that we\u2019re unfamiliar with, and of course, if even in the Soviet Union<\/i>, a materialistic nation supposedly, is spending, what is it, $12 million a year, something like that, to study paranormal faculty, therapeutic healing, many medical science\u2013 uh, scientists now, in nursing schools, medical schools, are emphasizing therapeutic healing<\/i>. The\u2013\u00a0the laying on of hands in\u2013\u00a0in direct correlation with uh, physical treatment, so undoubtedly there\u2019s a dimension there that the responsible<\/i> church must take over. And if we<\/i> don\u2019t, what are we going to leave it to? The uh, the type that says, \u201cTrust God, and don\u2019t go to the doctor.\u201d So many of the people involved in healing want to knock<\/i> medical science. And many<\/i> then die<\/i>. I think they do far more harm<\/i> than good<\/i>, because they\u2019ll keep people from going to medical science. When we<\/i> find someone who thinks they have a healing, we say, get<\/i> to the doctor and verify it.<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> Good! We\u2019ve gotta take a break, and we\u2019ll come right back and conclude our program with the Reverend Jim Jones.<\/p>\n

Music. Mike moves. Tape edit. Music.<\/i><\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> Jim Jones. Uh, Jim, where do you get your money from? How\u2013 How do the people\u2013 You know, how do you\u2013\u00a0how do you maintain all<\/i> these, you know, these great programs<\/i> that you\u2019re part of, that you give leadership to? How do you maintain them?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>People are pretty generous when they see how their money is being used. They see\u2013 They see definite results. We got a community center, an indoor swimming pool, and all these rest (stumbles over words), I think we have a novel thing in geriatric facilities, where the senior citizens themselves manage and direct. The only input is manual labor. We don\u2019t dictate to them how\u2013 what about their diet<\/i>, the d\u00e9cor, everything. Uh\u2013 when they see results, people give generously. We don\u2019t have a mandate about tithing. Some do. But of course, we have a large membership<\/i>, and that explains uh, the support, and they\u2019ll put on projects of various sorts. We get no outside help from the community to speak of, but uh, our people are very, very generous.<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> Jim, where<\/i> are we going to go? Where<\/i> are we going? When\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>In terms\u2013<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> In terms of uh, of society, of America, of the world, where are we going to go? Can you give it to me in 30 seconds? (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I think we have to be very careful that we must<\/i> do something about the alienation of the ethnic groups and rac\u2013 racism. As even [NAACP Executive Director] Roy Wilkins\u2013\u00a0Roy Wilkins, a conservative, and the Senator that just retired. We\u2019ve got a problem<\/i>, and we\u2019ve got to overcome that, because a house divided against itself can\u2019t stand. We must<\/i> do something about racism quickly.<\/p>\n

Williams:<\/b> Here\u2019s a man, I have to tell you, that I think is a\u2013\u00a0If I, you know, being honest, I think he\u2019s a genius, I think he\u2019s a prophet. He\u2019s charismatic. He\u2019s one of our great leaders. I\u2019m<\/i> glad to be associated with you. Brother, we gone stay together, \u2018cause I<\/i> know, if I<\/i> stay with you, we gone make it. (Laughs) We\u2019ll bring about justice. Walk that walk, and talk that talk. And be that be, and love that love, and struggle that struggle. Look for us. We\u2019ll be there.<\/p>\n

Music<\/em><\/p>\n

\n

Part 4:<\/b><\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I don\u2019t like uh, (unintelligible sentences). We can also respect the privacy (unintelligible phrase) public inquiry, testifies (unintelligible phrase). That isn\u2019t saying very much.<\/p>\n

(Long pauses and low exchanges of conversation; tape edit)<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>That\u2019s like uh, the thing we put in about you<\/i>, saving those dogs.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, whatever you can come up with. I\u2013 I just thought (unintelligible sentences). You gotta be careful (unintelligible phrase), realistically, you can\u2019t hardly pin down, here\u2019s a\u2013\u00a0here\u2019s a child in the street<\/i>. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Well, I\u2019ll think of something.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>You know, he broke up a fight, you know that we fight (unintelligible phrase), a young man attacked him, trying to use a knife on (stumbles over words), older man trying to use a knife on a young man. And he\u2013 he broke up the fight<\/i>. You should say we could\u2013 we each could have been stabbed, (mike moves for two words) could have been stabbed. That\u2019s\u2013<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Okay. He\u2019s now\u2013 He\u2019s now a graduate of pati\u2013 He\u2019s a graduate of Hastings Law School and working on his\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(beginning under Prokes) \u2013graduated from Hastings Law School and he works in the uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>He\u2019s on the D.A. staff.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>\u2013 Mendoci\u2013 Mendoci\u2013 Mendocino County district attorney.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>\u2013on the staff.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I guess staff\u2013<\/p>\n

(Low conversation)<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Can we say Casey [phonetic] Cartmell\u2019s on the D.A. staff.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Duncan J\u2013 Duncan James is\u2013 Dr. James is the district attorney\u2019s staff. (unintelligible phrase). \u2018Cause when [Timothy] Stoen goes<\/i>, our\u2013 our enemies up there think he got no (unintelligible word under conversation \u2013 \u201ccourage\u201d?)<\/p>\n

(Low conversation)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>He gone shit bricks. (Pause) He is going to shit bricks.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> Nobody\u2019s in the\u2013 Nobody (unintelligible phrase) state of California could take kind of thing to (unintelligible phrase) grand jury.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>You know where he can take his six months trial (unintelligible phrase).<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>No, they wouldn\u2019t get\u2013<\/p>\n

(People talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> They said we have\u2013 They say we have resumes of Harvard Law Review<\/i> types that you couldn\u2019t believe\u2013<\/p>\n

\n

Part 5:<\/b><\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>John could say, I believe he\u2019s the first<\/i> born of many brethren. But he (unintelligible word) an example for all of us to\u2013 to follow. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Man: <\/b>Do you believe anyone else was like Jesus Christ?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Oh, I believe everybody can<\/i> be.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> John? (unintelligible word)<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> All right, next we have uh, Ronny James and Anita Kelley. We heard them sing the day, we don\u2019t think too much of it one way or another.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> I have a question about that\u2013<\/p>\n

(Low conversation)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Wait, what\u2013\u00a0what\u2013 what\u2019s this? What\u2013 what\u2019s this?<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> There was\u2013<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> There\u2013 Senti<\/i>\u2013 Art\u2013 Article in the Sentinel<\/i>, which (unintelligible word) picture of Hue [Fortson], Ronny [James], Anita [Kelley], and John Harrison, quote, were all together.<\/p>\n

(Low overlapping conversation about newspapers, including Oakland Tribune<\/i>)<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> Coulda been just a misspelling, \u201cIjames.\u201d You know.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> Did she say the Tribune<\/i>? Did she get the ju\u2013 Tribune<\/i>? I never gave her the Tribune<\/i>. Did you give her the Tribune<\/i>?<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> I don\u2019t know. I\u2013 I didn\u2019t\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>He can\u2019t say. You can\u2019t say. You can\u2019t say. You don\u2019t know. You better stick your name, what is a\u00ad\u2013 who else was in that (stumbles over words)\u2013<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> That was Ronny James and Anita Kelley.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, Ronny James married Anita. Anita. Just got married. John, he\u2013 he married, so John here, he looks all right, there\u2019s a lot to John Harrison, \u2018cause he isn\u2019t on welfare.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> What it is? What?<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> Okay, they believe uh\u2013 they don\u2019t think of it much one way or another.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, one of them\u2013\u00a0Both of\u2013 Ronny should say I\u2013\u00a0I don\u2019t think much about it, one way or the other. And Anita said, Well, I\u2019m\u2013 I believe in the traditional. I think somebody ought to say, I believe in the traditional teachings of the Christian church. (Pause) (unintelligible word). Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world. Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world. God is the father of all<\/i> living things. Got that, Anita?<\/p>\n

Anita: <\/b>Yep.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>In fact, you should get it in there somewhere. All right, what is (stumbles over words). What else?<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> Okay, Dick\u2013 Dick Tropp and Lois\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I\u2019ll bet you we don\u2019t get much of this kind of question. Go on. What?<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> Dick Tropp and Lois?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>What?<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> I got them not believing in it, and not believing in anything. (unintelligible word)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>He\u2019s Jewish<\/i>. Say, I\u2013 I lost my loved ones in tc\u2013 German concentration camps. I lost too<\/i> many of them. I don\u2019t have faith in a benevolent being, a benevolent divinity. And she should say, well, I\u2013 I do. But I\u2019m not anthropomorphic about it. Can you remember that?<\/p>\n

(Low reply)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Hmm?<\/p>\n

(low reply)<\/p>\n

Another<\/b> Woman:<\/b> Look up the words and\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Anthropomorphic about it. (Pause) She probably not gone go any further than that. Anthropomorphic. Can you keep saying that word over to her. It means you don\u2019t uh, project human\u2013 your image into God. You\u2013 and that\u2019s usually what (unintelligible word). I don\u2019t make God after my image. I cannot fathom<\/i> what God is. It\u2019s first cause. You got that? First cause? Christ is the uh\u2013 (Pause) the huma\u2013\u00a0human side of God<\/i>. That\u2019s a ne\u2013 That\u2019s a new twist. She\u2019ll think we\u2019re\u2013<\/p>\n

(Low woman reply)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Okay, what else, what, uh, what else?<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> Okay. Next we have uh, Peter and Mary Wotherspoon.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>What about them?<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> And I got them saying, yes, they believe in\u2013 that there\u2019s a heaven, but there\u2019s no hell.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> Everybody\u2019s saying that.<\/p>\n

(Several people talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I\u2019d say, your\u2013\u00a0your lying runs\u2013 You\u2013 You show your absence of theology. Um\u2013<\/p>\n

Man: <\/b>I got fine more points, and they all sort of\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Peter\u2013\u00a0Peter says, uh-huh.<\/p>\n

Woman: <\/b>Karma?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(excitedly) <\/b>No, fuck, no karma. Don\u2019t get no karma, don\u2019t get no karma. Don\u2019t you mention that word, karma. They\u2019ll throw us right in the (unintelligible word). (Pause) Uh, stay away from that karma, reincarnation, all that shit. (Pause) I would say\u2013 I would say\u2013 Huh?<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> That\u2019s Catholic.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>That\u2019s Catholic, yes. Well, uh, Peter came and say, I came from a background that believed in purgatory. (Stumbles over words) \u2013being in this church, I\u2019m more concerned about humanitarian things, I don\u2019t think<\/i> about theological things. Peter, got that?<\/p>\n

Peter:<\/b> Yes, sir.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Hmm?<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> He said, yes sir.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> Got it?<\/p>\n

Peter:<\/b> I\u2019ve got it.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> We need a belief for Larry Schacht\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Mary, uh, believe, I believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God, and God is the Creator of the universe. Huh? Yes, Archie [Ijames].<\/p>\n

Ijames:<\/b> I wouldn\u2019t say, (unintelligible phrase) said, gonna be more\u2013 immortality, but also perpetuity of li\u2013 of life\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>What?<\/p>\n

Ijames:<\/b> (unintelligible phrase) Probably would take advantage of it, right, would I said, yes, I believe in immortality and perpetu\u2013 tuity of life?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(unintelligible word) no problem. No problem. Go ahead.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> Okay, next we have uh, Tim Carter and Christine Chavez, uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Mr. and Mrs. Carter.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> Yeah. Mr. and Mrs. Carter.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Go ahead.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> Uh, I\u2019ve got them saying here that uh, they don\u2019t really think much of it, one way or another.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>All right.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> Okay? Okay, then we have Jim and Harriet Randolph [aka Harriet Sarah Tropp].<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>They don\u2019t think of it\u2013 Both of them think\u2013 (slurs words)<\/p>\n

Man and woman talk over each other.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> Well, wouldn\u2019t it be good to have some couple who agree at least?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(Emphatic) No.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> It\u2019s not. Okay.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I don\u2019t think it should come up on those kinds of questions the same. I think it shows more creativity. No. But does\u2013 Carter says what? (Pause)<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> He doesn\u2019t really think much about (voice fades)<\/p>\n

People talk over each other.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>All right, say, I come to church\u2013\u00a0I come to church here because of what the minister and the people do, or (slurs overs words) what this congregation does for people.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> Some people could agree on that one too. (voice fades)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Then what?<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> If he said that, uh, some oth\u2013 others\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Yeah, others could say, yeah, that\u2019s true. If there\u2019s a background. Yeah, that\u2019s true, a few of \u2018em could\u2013 and she<\/i> says um, (Pause) Well, I\u2019m a disciple in my teachings, disciples, uh, Disciples of Christ teach that Jesus Christ is the son of the savior of the world<\/i>. (Pause) And God is, is Love. (Pause) You got that? Christine? (Pause) Go, next.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> Next we have uh, Jim and Harriet Randolph. And I got them both saying no, (Voice fades)\u2013<\/p>\n

(competing voices)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Harriet should say I\u2019m Jewish, and I do not\u2013 I do not have a personal belief in God. I believe much from the great Judeo trad\u2013 traditions. (Pause) The Hebrew traditions and culture. (Pause) And he<\/i> should say, (Pause) I came from the Southern Baptist Church, he sounds relatively southern, I come from the Southern Baptist Church and I guess I still hold some of its theology, which is orthodox, but I\u2019m not as orthodox as I used to be. All right?<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> Okay, next we have Hue and Rhonda Fortson, and uh, I got them saying that they\u2013 that they don\u2019t uh, believe one way or another, as far as an afterlife, but that hell uh, seems to be to them, poverty and starvation on earth.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Then say hell, uh\u2013 Hue ought to say, hell is the absence of love. (Pause) And heaven? I\u2019ve always taught\u2013\u00a0been taught to believe in. My Mom and Dad taught me to believe in heaven. (Pause) Personally, I take it by faith. You got that? Rhonda should say uh, (Pause) I believe in immortality. (Pause) Jesus brought it to light through the gospel. Hmm? (Pause) You got that? Somebody can quote scripture any goddamn place, I guess. Go ahead.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> Okay, Paul Flowers and Rosie? (Pause) Uh, I got them as saying uh, (Pause) saying that they think it\u2019s important. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Being in law enforcement\u2013 (Pause) Uh, oh, let me see, Paul, maybe we can pick up with a first name different than Paul.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> What\u2019s your middle name, Paul?<\/p>\n

Flowers:<\/b> Joseph. It\u2019s Joseph.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> Joe?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Joe. Joe Flowers. I\u2013 I find it uh\u2013 (Pause) Being in law enforcement, I see so much cruelty, I find uh, it difficult to understand the mystery of creation. (Pause) The mystery of creation. And I believe everybody should live by the teachings of Jesus Christ. You got that? That sounds typical law and order. Everybody should live by the teachings of Jesus Christ. And his wife should say (Pause) God is uh, (Pause) the heavenly father.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> If he says he works in law enforcement, uh, don\u2019t you think that she\u2019s going to ask him where? It makes a difference\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>He said he\u2019s already told her that, I can\u2019t go into it now, my\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> (Talks to low about cruelty)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>That he sees cruelty, he sees cruelty. Hell, law\u2013 in law, you see cruelty, so much cruelty. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> Okay, next we have uh, Gene and Phyllis Chaikin, I\u2019ve got them both saying no to both\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> (talks under man, too low)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Rosie said she believed that God is the heavenly father and Jesus Christ is his son. They\u2019ve got to have some of this tradition in here. What\u2019s that?<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> Okay, it was Phyllis Chaikin and\u2013 and uh, Gene Chaikin, (unintelligible word). Uh, I\u2019ve got them both<\/i> as saying that they don\u2019t believe in it, because of (unintelligible word)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I don\u2019t know whether\u2013 We\u2019re Jewish, and we ought to\u2013 we are\u2013\u00a0we are lib\u2013 we are the\u2013 we are the liberal\u2013 what is it? What is it?<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> Reform. He\u2019s reform Jewish.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> Reform Jewish.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Reform Jewish position, and then just give whatever the hell that is. You people know what it is.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> I personally don\u2019t belong to this.<\/p>\n

People talk over each other.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> Sort of like the Unitarian. They just believe in the (unintelligible word) now.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Say, it\u2019s sort of like the Unitarian position. (Pause) Okay.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> Okay, uh, then you have uh, myself and Susie, I\u2019ve got us both us saying that uh, we don\u2019t think of it, one way or another.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>You\u2019re close\u2013 You\u2019re close to me. What?<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> (unintelligible sentence). You know, they say, no, you know, I don\u2019t believe in any God that let my child die, you know. Or\u2013<\/p>\n

General cries of dissent.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>All right, now, where you come off with\u2013 You come off with shit like this to make you\u2013 that makes me\u2013 it makes me nervous about you when get in a situation, you\u2019re a very good worker, but you come off with (unintelligible word) crazy shit, that\u2019d be the dumb<\/i> thing to say to fucking ass reporter, if you want uh\u2013 (Pause) You always ask questions before you speak, when you get in a mess like that. (Pause) No, I\u2013 I\u2013\u00a0I\u2019d say\u2013 I like the law\u2013\u00a0As a lawyer, as a, as a lawyer, uh, say, he\u2019s a graduate from law school. Graduate from law school, I\u2013 (Pause) I appreciate the law of the New, the Old and New Testament. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> Shouldn\u2019t you assign a (unintelligible phrase)?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> What? How would I\u2013 you like to hear this done? If you folks got some really<\/i> germane thing. I\u2019m in a lot of agony. I\u2019m just trying to get my fucking wo\u2013\u00a0self through<\/i> it. If it\u2019s bad, then tell me it\u2019s bad when I give it to you. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> (too low)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Yes. Throws my mind off with God, God, God. And so, I\u2013\u00a0I\u2013\u00a0I\u2013\u00a0I\u2013 I find myself um, (Pause) I think through (slurred word) the culture, or the culture, ethics and culture of Judeo-Christian tradition have, has built Amer\u2013\u00a0uh, American\u2013 helped build American democracy. (Pause) Sue should say uh, God is love, and Christ means (Pause) anointing. It means Jesus was the anointed son<\/i> of God. (Pause) Now I wouldn\u2019t go, if I were you, if you believe Jim Jones is anointed, oh, no, Jim\u2013\u00a0I don\u2019t know what he\u2013 she\u2013\u00a0she may find out what your dad, I\u2013\u00a0He never says anything about that, I\u2013 I think he just, my dad. He\u2019s just my dad, that\u2019s all.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> If she dredged up that self-styled prophet stuff, (unintelligible phrase as Jones talk over)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>She may dredge it up, but just say, it\u2019s just another one of his goddamn fantastic lies. \u201cSelf-styled prophet.\u201d We don\u2019t\u2013\u00a0we never use that term. We don\u2019t use such terminology. This man\u2013 I\u2013 He said, with the stuff he wrote, Reb [James Edwards], I just don\u2019t understand how he could write that, or others could say he\u2019s a liar. He\u2019s a liar, that\u2019s all. (Pause) Yeah. And all of you have been here since that time with [newspaper columnist and Temple antagonist Lester] Kinsolving. All of you should have been here that long. It seems to me.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> Mmm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Hmm?<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Where did he write? He wrote in the Examiner<\/i>. Kinsolving wrote in the Examiner. Some kind of a rever\u2013\u00a0reverend. Said he was very strange, though. I\u2013 I understood we\u2013 we were having a\u2013\u00a0Say, we were having a convention up in the valley that day, and uh, he didn\u2019t even come inside the\u2013 the\u2013\u00a0our rest<\/i> homes. (Pause) Schacht should tell about his drug\u2013 All of you now\u2013 And different ones of you ought to have drug<\/i> problems, the younger ones should have come from drug problems. Except those in sensitive areas, like law enforcement. Say, I\u2013 I\u2013 Instead of being in law enforcement, I\u2019d end up in crime, though, if it hadn\u2019t been for this church. (Pause) Huh?<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> Should Larry tell (unintelligible end of question)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, uh, he\u2019s in<\/i>, uh\u2013\u00a0I don\u2019t know. (stumbles over words) drug. And he didn\u2019t\u2013\u00a0Didn\u2019t you tell them that, or did you?<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> (unintelligible phrase)<\/p>\n

End of Side 1<\/strong><\/p>\n

\n

Side 2:<\/b><\/p>\n

Several minutes in, burst of conversation, several seconds long<\/p>\n

\n

Part 6: Test of equipment<\/b><\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> I am testing this microphone. (Whistles). Softly, softly, very softly. (Tape edit) (Pause) Testing one two, testing one two three, testing one two three, testing one two three, testing testing testing testing testing testing.<\/p>\n

(Microphone moves, TV on, baby cries, general hubbub) (Phone dial tone)<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> Testing testing testing. (Whistles) Testing one two three. Hello, hello, hello, hello, hello.<\/p>\n

\n

Part 7: Conversation between Mike Prokes and writer named Dick <\/strong><\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Well, it uh, went really well.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Good.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Uh, you weren\u2019t uh\u2013 We had<\/i> so many people here that it was unbelievable. And I\u2013 I think there was 4000 people. And uh, it uh, it was, it was really a, a moving service.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Oh.<\/p>\n

Prokes<\/b>: It uh\u2013 We had uh, so many different people represented. I guess there was about 12 different ministers of various faiths, and uh, Dennis Banks came with uh, William Kunstler.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Oh, good.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Nation of Islam was here. Willie Brown and uh, uh, oh gosh, I\u2013\u00a0Cecil Williams came, and (laughs) lot of people just dropped in unexpectedly.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Uh-huh.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>So I\u2019m s\u2013 sorry you couldn\u2019t uh\u2013<\/p>\n

(Tape edit? Same conversation? Several moments of electronic hum)<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> (unintelligible intro) \u2013\u00a0and set up something. Do you think that\u2013 that uh, you\u2013 you\u2019ve worked\u2013 been working on the Tenderloin on some\u2013 on some projects uh, with uh, Gene Weller, I think\u2013 I understand.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Right. (Electronic interference) We uh, alternate weekends.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Oh, I see. Oh, I see. That kind of thing\u2013 or is anybody in your uh, temple that, that might have information about that?<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Well, uh, I think you\u2013 you should uh, at least check with\u2013 with that organization. Uh, I\u2019m trying\u2013\u00a0there\u2019s s\u2013 s\u2013 uh, one young man who uh, is one of the escorts but his name\u2013\u00a0let\u2019s see. Paul Godsey.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Uhh-huh.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>And uh, he\u2013 he\u2013\u00a0he might uh, know of some that are in, you know, predicament, where they aren\u2019t getting enough uh, food, or medical attention, or whatever.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Right. Uh-huh. Do\u2013 Do you know his number?<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>No, but it\u2019s with the North of Market uh, Senior Organization, I think it\u2019s called.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>So\u2013 It\u2019s listed that way. And uh\u2013 \u00adI think\u00ad\u2013 Yeah, I think you\u2013 that uh\u2013 And that\u2013 There are a\u2013 Isn\u2019t there a\u2013 I\u2019m trying to think of a hunger organization here in the city. Um. I think there\u2013 there\u2019s at least one major uh, program deals with that exclusively.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Uh-huh.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>That uh, might know of\u2013 of uh, you know, what\u2013 what areas are affected, what people are affected. But I can\u2019t think of their name.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Huh. There\u2019s a food<\/i> day coming up, you know, uh, on uh\u2013 Let\u2019s see, I think it\u2019s coming up next uh\u2013 (Tape edit; short burst of another conversation) \u2013at USF on the eighth.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>And\u2013 let\u2019s see, USF on the eighth. On the eighth of\u2013<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Right. Of uh, of uh, this month.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Oh really?<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Oh. At the university.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Uni\u2013 University of San Francisco.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>I\u2019ll be darned. Uh\u2013 I\u2019m trying to think. The\u2013 You know, they had a, a recent uh\u2013\u00a0well, it\u2019s been a c\u2013 few months, I guess, the\u2013\u00a0a world (clears throat) food uh, convention. And uh, there\u2019s an organization called uh, Bread for the World.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Uh-huh.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Which is\u2013 strictly deals with hunger. They<\/i> might have a local chapter. (Pause) They\u2013 I\u2013 \u2018Cause I know they do have uh, various branches.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Uh-huh.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>And we<\/i> have uh, we have helped, helped them, but I\u2013 I\u2019m not sure if it\u2013 we did it locally or uh, at their headquarters. But you might check on that.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Huh. Okay. (Stumbles over words) Are you gonna have anything this week?<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Uh, yeah, poss\u2013\u00a0Friday night, but uh, but I\u2019m not sure whether it\u2019s gonna be business yet or not.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Uh-huh. (Pause) Okay, is there anything you think I should (unintelligible phrase), any\u2013 any\u2013\u00a0you know, I\u2019d like to work with you on anything\u2013\u00a0you know, any projects, that\u2013 You have my number.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Right. And uh\u2013\u00a0let\u2019s see. I can uh\u2013 So you\u2019ll be here uh, throughout the week?<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Yes.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Yeah. Okay. And what was the uh, the woman\u2019s name that\u2013<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Loretta Smith?<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Loretta Smith. Right.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> And then the week after, you\u2019re gonna have a, a\u2013 that\u2019s going to be Easter, right?<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Right.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Or Easter\u2013 no, no, Easter\u2019s gonna be this week. Uh, I mean, it\u2019s the 18th. On the 25th, you\u2019ll be back, uh, on Sunday.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Right. Right.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> What func\u2013\u00a0What uh, thing is going to be then, do you know? What uh\u2013\u00a0What uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>What\u2013 What\u2013 When will the meeting be?<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Yeah. Yeah, like on Sunday.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Eleven. Be at uh, eleven. Or twelve, it would actually be a, a better time, \u2018cause we\u2019ll be through announcements and business, that kind of thing. But uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Okay. \u2018Cause maybe I could come by then.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Sure. Uh\u2013 It was uh, really good meeting you.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> (Enthusiastic) Yeah, I enjoyed it very much. You know. Sorry I didn\u2019t get a chance to talk to uh, uh, Jim Jones more, or\u2013\u00a0you know, I\u2019d like to at some point.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Yeah, he\u2019s very much in demand. (Small laugh) Uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Yeah, I know. I was very impressed with the\u2013<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>The unique uh\u2013 unique man is ki\u2013 really the kindest person I\u2019ve ever met.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Express my thanks to him, if you get a chance.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>I will do that.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> All right.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>And uh, I wish you\u2013 I kinda wish you could have been here Sunday, \u2018cause it was a, a different sort of service. It was really\u2013 I don\u2019t know, it was just a, a really, a real feeling of uh, brotherhood with uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Uh\u2013 We came by, but we were late. We got there by about\u2013 about one o\u2019clock.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Oh, you did.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Yeah. I had to get to another uh, thing, you know.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Oh, we were on the way over, I think, to the uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Right. Right.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>To the Nation of Islam. That\u2019s really been a breakthrough, you know, Dick, uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Well, that<\/i> sounds good<\/i>, really, I\u2019m really, you know, happy about that.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>It\u2019s\u2013\u00a0It\u2019s almost uh, unbelievable<\/i> how they\u2019ve\u2013 they\u2019ve turned around with uh, slow cultivation and just, you know, working together and offering our services. It\u2019s\u2013 It\u2019s\u2013 They\u2019re\u2013\u00a0They\u2019re as uh, friendly as can be, I mean, we\u2019re just uh, we\u2019re really uh, on close terms now. And uh, I mean they\u2013 they don\u2019t have any sort of uh, you know uh, rhetoric that\u2019s hate-filled like you once heard it to be. And uh, they\u2019re generally concerned with uh, you know, working within the system for, for change.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Are there going to be more meetings like that?<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Yes. Yes, there will. We\u2019ve done it quite a few times now. In fact, uh, Jim has been uh\u2013\u00a0I don\u2019t know if I mentioned it or not, but uh, their chief minister in Chicago, Wallace D. Muhammed, who uh, was a friend of uh, a close friend with Malcolm X, uh, he is going to be uh, having a joint meeting with us, and they want, you know, Jim to have equal billing. It\u2019s really sort of a, a breakthrough, but uh, it\u2019ll be taking place in May in uh, Los Angeles. And then, depending on how that works out, they may have one here too. But uh, they\u2013 they usually have it uh, run closed-circuit throughout the country, and uh, it\u2019s uh, I don\u2019t know\u2013 a lot\u2013\u00a0lot of good could come out of it, if it works.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Sounds good.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Yeah.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Okay, Mike, I\u2019ll\u2013 Keep me\u2013 Keep me posted and\u2013\u00a0and I\u2019ll, you know, uh, you know, and I\u2019ll maybe call you. When are you going down to L.A.? Friday?<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Uh, yeah, Friday night.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Oh, okay, maybe I\u2019ll call you before then.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Okay.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> And when are you getting out another\u2013\u00a0another newspaper (unintelligible phrase)\u2013<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Working on one now. And uh, it uh\u2013 so it should be out by the weekend, I think.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Hmm. And you get\u2013 How often do you get them out?<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Well, uh, at least<\/i> once a month.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> And how many copies do you get out?<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Six hundred thousand.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Oh, really<\/i>?<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Yes, we have uh\u2013\u00a0we have a large donation of paper, we have our own press, we have uh, people with journalistic experience who are donating their time, you know, when they get off their regular jobs, they\u2013 they donate time in putting it together. And also we have members from our church who uh, distribute it, and uh, it goes throughout the city. So, uh, we, you know, we want to reach people with uh, news that uh, is really an alternative that hopefully uh, they want to hear about. (Beginning of next sentence under interruption)<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Six hundred thousand uh, copies you get out. All over San Francisco?<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Right.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Gee, that\u2019s great.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Yeah. I\u2013 (Laughs) I think that it\u2019s more than the Chronicle<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Yeah, sure. Do you\u2013 Do you uh, uh, would you be interested in articles like uh, that, that, you know, if we could supply them? Not of a political<\/i> nature, but I mean, articles like things of what\u2019s going on<\/i>, like for example, uh, uh, I had a recent meeting with [U.S. Representative Ron] Dellums, and we talked about some of the real<\/i> dangers of, of the suppression<\/i> of the uh, congressional investigation of uh, co\u2013 covert activities.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Oh, really<\/i>?<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>I\u2013 I wish you could come and he\u2013\u00a0and speak about that. When did you talk with him?<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Oh, I\u2019d love to. Uh, (clears throat) I talked to him about uh, two weeks ago.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Oh, really.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> And he was very<\/i> concerned about that.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Is he in town?<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> No, he\u2019s not now.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Oh, he was then?<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> He was, yeah.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Yeah. \u2018Cause I\u2019d like\u2013\u00a0he\u2013\u00a0he should uh\u2013 I think<\/i> he\u2019s been here, but uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> \u2018Cause he\u2019s a great<\/i> speaker. Really.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Yeah. Yeah. Maybe I\u2019ll see if uh, when he\u2019ll be back. Do you know when he\u2019ll be back next?<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Well, see, I, uh\u2013\u00a0We tried to get him at\u2013 to come out at one of our functions on the 16th, but he\u2013 he, uh\u2013 he\u2013 he\u2013\u00a0he thought he might<\/i> be able to make it, then he couldn\u2019t. So I don\u2019t know when<\/i> he\u2019ll be out again. He\u2013\u00a0He comes out, uh, you know, oh, about once a month.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Yeah.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> He\u2019s a good friend<\/i> of mine, so I\u2019ll be\u2013<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>He is?<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Yeah. He\u2019s<\/i> supporting me.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Good. Good. Well, uh\u2013 Yeah<\/i>, if the next time you talk to him, you could uh, uh, suggest that, you know, we\u2019d like to meet him, have him meet our\u2013\u00a0our people, \u2018cause we su\u2013 our people support him.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Yeah, he\u2019s\u2013\u00a0I\u2013 I think he\u2019s one of the most honest, uh, congressmen.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>I think he\u2019s well aware of our support, but he needs to uh\u2013 I think it\u2019d be good for him to see it.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Would you uh\u2013\u00a0Would you like<\/i> an article on that?<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Sure.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Okay. When\u2013 When\u2019s your deadline for the thing?<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Uh, well, let\u2019s see. (Pause) Thur\u2013 I\u2013 I think<\/i> it\u2019s probably over for this issue. It\u2019s already been uh\u2013\u00a0You know, it\u2019s already been composed and uh, and uh, just\u2013 it\u2019s ready to go to press.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Oh, okay. When\u2019s the next one gonna be out?<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>And the next one uh, well, it\u2019ll be for sure within, you know, within a month, hopefully sooner.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Umm-hmm. (Pause) Okay, we can\u2013<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>But uh, the\u2013 the paper<\/i> will be uh, you know\u2013 (Stumbles over words) That was just the first issue that you saw, and so\u2013<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> It was good. I thought it was very<\/i> good.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Well, uh, that\u2019s\u2013 I\u2019m\u2013 That\u2019s encouraging, because we want to make it longer and you know, better quality in the future. It was uh, got out in\u2013 pretty hastily, but uh, we want to uh, you know, increase it and, you know, make it better, as far as uh, the amount and uh, and the\u2013 the range of things that it appeals to. (Pause) So uh, I think uh, you know, we\u2019re gonna be uh\u2013 We\u2019re asking for any kind of contributions like that, and uh, whatever space will allow, we\u2019ll print.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Umm-hmm. Umm-hmm. Okay. Sure. I\u2013 I think that would be excit\u2013\u00a0I think this is one of the most important issues in this country, is, for example, is that if\u2013 if Congress\u2013 let\u2019s say Congress investigates, you know, the FBI and the CIA, and the\u2013 Con\u2013\u00a0Dellums himself couldn\u2019t even see the full report<\/i> of the investigation, and he was one of the key members of the committee<\/i>. I mean, you know, it sat in [President Gerald] Ford\u2019s of\u2013 office, and it was never released. The press<\/i> hasn\u2019t talked about that in (stumbles over words) you know, regular media. And I<\/i> think that\u2019s something that\u2019s really, uh, you know, uh, dangerous<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Yeah, I do too. I think it\u2019s very<\/i> dangerous. And uh, I don\u2019t know, it\u2019s uh\u2013 there\u2019s really a climate in the country that uh, could\u2013\u00a0there\u2019s no telling where it\u2019s headed. If something like Senate Bill 1<\/a> could get uh, proposed, and a lot of congressmen not even read it because it\u2019s so long. (Small laugh)<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Mm. Sure.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>What was it, 750 pages? And it\u2013 If that\u2013<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Sure. Really<\/i> dangerous stuff in there.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Well, it would\u2019ve uh\u2013 It would\u2019ve virtually set up a police<\/i> state, if it\u2019s passed.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> I would like to talk on that sometime, you know (stumbles over words), on this whole\u2013\u00a0which is a big\u2013 I\u2013 key part of the campaign, is\u2013 is\u2013\u00a0is calling for investigation, uh, of the uh, covert activities in\u2013 in California, for example, secret army organization uh, which is directly<\/i> uh, supported by the FBI, there\u2019s proof of that, uh, and\u2013\u00a0You know, they bombed churches down in uh, San Diego.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Gosh.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Uh, and what (unintelligible phrase), one of the dangers what they\u2019re\u2013\u00a0what they\u2019re going to do is set up quasi<\/i>– uh, uh, uh, go\u2013\u00a0uh, agencies, uh, like the secret army organization, which are not<\/i> directly working for the government, but they\u2019re infiltrated. And they use them to assassinate<\/i> people on the left. You know?<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Yeah.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> And I\u2019ve, you know, called for, you know, a full<\/i> investigation of that.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Yeah. Well, that\u2019s some\u2013 that\u2019s something, you know, we want to know about, and uh, become enlightened about.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Okay, I\u2019ll<\/i> uh, you know, I\u2019ll\u2013<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>We feel we have a duty to uh, you know, be\u2013\u00a0be informed, but\u2013\u00a0and uh, this is, you know, part of our program.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> I\u2019ll\u2013 We\u2013 we\u2019ll work something up for your next uh, next issue, and I\u2019ll be looking forward to seeing, you know, next one you got.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Okay.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> And I\u2019ll<\/i>\u2013 I\u2019ll probably get\u2013 get back to you probably the middle of the week.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Fine.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Okay?<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Thanks for calling.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Tha\u2013 Thanks, Mike.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Talk to you later.<\/p>\n

Dick:<\/b> Bye, bye.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/b>Bye.<\/p>\n

\n

Part 8: Conversation between Bonnie [Simon?] and unknown caller<\/b><\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> Oh, hi, Bonnie would you tell him if\u2013\u00a0if he wants to get a hold of the church for anything or he wants to talks to Miss Tomkis [phonetic], there\u2019s one line that gets through.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> Oh, you have one of those too. (Laughs) Okay.<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> Yeah. At the moment, everything\u2019s on the blink over there.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> Oh, really?<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> 9-3-1-5-7-8-0.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> 5-7-8-0. Okay.<\/p>\n

Two woman talk over each other.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> Just like kind of like this one, I gave you. It\u2019s sort of a get-through-to number.<\/p>\n

(Tape edit)<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> I have called Cuba\u2013<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> Umm-hmm. (Sneezes?)<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> I\u2013 I left word of the Riviera Hotel but I\u2013\u00a0he hasn\u2019t, uh, returned my call<\/i> yet. I called about 6:30 this morning, I was sure he\u2013 I\u2019d catch him.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> Mmm. You were up early, (unintelligible word; could be \u201can early bird\u201d).<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> Yeah. That\u2019s unusual for me.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> Me too. (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> But I didn\u2019t catch him, and I left word with the hotel. (Pause) But I did talk to Mr. Rizzo too, and he said that it would be imperative for him to be on the list<\/i>, \u2018cause other\u2013 so\u2013 uh, Dr. Gerlach could easily arrange it, if I could get to him.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> Yeah. Now if\u2013\u00a0is there a group<\/i> flight going out from here\u2013<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> No.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> \u2013or do they just make it to Jamaica?<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> Oh, no, it\u2013 it\u2013 it\u2019s just a ha\u2013 handful<\/i> of people going on this lap. Uh, as a matter of fact, maybe three or four. And the flight out<\/i> of Havana\u2013 I mean, out\u2013\u00a0.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> Cancun.<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> \u2013to Havana, is at 1:30 in the afternoon.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> Tomorrow.<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> Umm-hmm. And it\u2019s not that easy to make connections. \u2018Cause we got to Kingston, I think sometimes you arrive at 1:15.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> Yeah, well, that\u2019s just what I was trying to figure out, how to get Don, well, I guess to New York, and then to Kingston?<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> (Slowly) Uh, yeah. Uh\u2013\u00a0When we looked into it, there was one leaving from, oh, something like Newark.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> And\u2013 (Pause) And it\u2013 (Pause) It flew directly to Kingston from Newark. And that would g\u00ad\u2013 give him, I think<\/i>, plenty of time.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> You know, well, I was just going to see if there was anybody else going from here<\/i>, you know, that would give me an idea\u2013<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> Oh, I know. There isn\u2019t.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> There isn\u2019t. (Pause) So I just don\u2019t know what to do, until Dr. Goodlett [Carlton Goodlett, Sun-Reporter <\/i>newspaper publisher] calls. I\u2019m sure he will.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> Yeah. Oh, I am too.<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> If he gets the message. He may be out in the back country chopping sugar cane or something. (Pause) Although that would be strictly out of character. (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> Well, nopt for down there.<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> Oh, he got a bad back, though.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> Ohh, that\u2019s not too good.<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> No.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> No, he shouldn\u2019t be doing that, then. Definitely. So. Well, then, I guess maybe I better go ahead and try to set up something, for Don.<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> Why don\u2019t you\u2013\u00a0Why don\u2019t you set it all up, and we\u2019ll hope he calls. Because if he does call, he can easily send a wire to the proper people, even tomorrow<\/i>, uh, to Kingston.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, \u2018cause I would imagine Don would have, you know\u2013 I don\u2019t think we should have Don leave until we\u2019re sure<\/i>, though.<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> Uh, I rather think so, too. It\u2019s a long trip to Jamaica.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> Yeah, that\u2019s what I think. Yeah, and then he\u2019d be there and have to come back, wouldn\u2019t be too good. So\u2013<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> His name definitely was not on the list that\u2013 that I<\/i> can recall.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> Okay. Okay.<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> Although I\u2013 He, uh\u2013 (Pause) Unless, uh\u2013 But Jim<\/i> can\u2019t remember whe\u2013 whether or not he gave it to Carlton when he left. (Pause) It\u2019s funny how these things usually work out all right. Just sitting here, it seems that it\u2013<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> Oh, yeah, I have a lot of faith that it will\u2013<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> Yeah\u2013 (Laughs) But I think we better wait for him to call.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> Yeah, well, I\u2019ll go ahead and try to make some reservations, with some sort of\u2013\u00a0Do you know any\u2013\u00a0Do you know which airline it was that flies there, or any\u2013\u00a0Do you remember? (Pause) Uh, well, no, you weren\u2019t\u2013 (unintelligible under interruption)<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> Do you have a travel agent?<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> I think so.<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> Because we have a very good one we use, and she\u2019s sort of up on this trip, because she just got him some tickets.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> Oh, okay\u2013 Who\u2019s\u2013 Okay, maybe I ought to check through her then.<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> It\u2019s uh, Jackson Travel.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> Jackson Travel.<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> On Polk Street?<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> Okay, I\u2019ll check. I usually don\u2019t get into travel stuff, so I\u2019ll have to\u2013 you know (unintelligible phrase under interruption)\u2013<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> Oh, well, they\u2019ll do it all for<\/i> you. You just tell them, they\u2013 they have to make a 1:30 connection, see.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> Okay, well, I\u2019ll check with them.<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> Now their number is 9-2-8-2-5-0-1.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> Mmm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> Ask for Marsha.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> Marsha. Okay. Great.<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> Uh-huh. Okay.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> Okay, then I\u2019ll go ahead and check for\u2013 check out and find Don and let him know what\u2019s happening.<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> Well (laughs)\u2013 Yeah, he\u2019s all packed (unintelligible word under interruption)\u2013<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> Oh, yeah, he\u2019s ready to go, and he\u2019s got all of his stuff.<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> Uhh-huh. Okay.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> So that\u2019s no problem. And all his shots (unintelligible phrase under interruption)\u2013<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> All right. Now, how about the malpractice.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> Ohh, I\u2013 (Pause) Now, in what regard?<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> Well, uh, oh, I had a good<\/i> talk with Jim last evening, and he\u2013 and he asked how\u2013\u00a0how the status of it was, and I said it hadn\u2019t gone through yet. He was a little surprised. So maybe we better push it.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> Well, I mentioned\u2013 Well, until we get, you know\u2013 I guess Ro\u2013\u00a0it\u2019s in Ro\u2013 Now, have you written to Ron Newpower?<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> No. (Pause) I\u2019ll call him up.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> Yeah, because I think all he\u2019s waiting for is that letter from you saying that they\u2019re employed.<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> Well, then, I can do that immediately.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> Yeah. Yeah.<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> Uh-huh. Okay. I\u2019ll do that right now.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> Yeah. Or, you know, that they\u2019re supervised and employed, or they\u2019re remunerated, \u2018cause you (unintelligible word under interruption) that bit.<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> Oh, that\u2019s right. That\u2019s right. All right. I\u2019ll do it.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> All righty. Okay.<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> Thanks a lot.<\/p>\n

Caller:<\/b> Umm-hmm. Bye.<\/p>\n

Bonnie:<\/b> Bye-bye.<\/p>\n

\n

Part 9: Conversation between Mike Prokes and Bill Lenson over health clinic <\/strong><\/p>\n

Lenson: <\/b>(unintelligible intro) lack of interim funding until the first of July, basically. Did John tell you this?<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Uh, no, he didn\u2019t. At that time, he didn\u2019t know.<\/p>\n

Lenson: <\/b>Okay, well, what happened is that uh, due to rising costs and everything uh, on medical malpractice et cetera, uh, we came up a couple of months short in our\u2013 in our money<\/i>. And we used the Bifano [phonetic] money that we raised, which you people so graciously uh, contributed to, et cetera, and uh, we\u2019ve dumped uh, uh, five thousand dollars worth of that, and we received 5000 from the San Francisco Foundation as a temporary funding. And uh, we basically have now<\/i> received assurances from the City of San Francisco of fifteen thousand as of July one, and also some from you back up, uh, we think it\u2019s going to be around twenty. It was 35 we asked for, but we reduced it by fifteen, \u2018cause we got the other fifteen from the city. So uh, as of July one, the clinic will be able to stand basically on its own with uh, uh, you know, three or four thousand for outside contributions.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> So you\u2019ll be uh, closed till then?<\/p>\n

Lenson: <\/b>No, uh, we\u2019re here desperately working with other foundations right now<\/i> uh, to\u2013\u00a0We need another 10,105 dollars to open a clinic uh, on the sixteenth of April. We gave everybody two-week vacation, is what we did, whether they wanted it or not. We didn\u2019t have any choice. And uh, at the\u2013\u00a0on the sixteenth, if we uh, if we come up with the\u2013 this additional money, we will open up on the sixteenth. If not<\/i>, uh, the clinic will be closed at least till July first, and maybe completely, because uh, we\u2019ll lose our staff, we\u2019d have to restaff, we\u2019d lose a lot of our patients, it\u2019d be very difficult to, uh, you know, to put the thing back together again, and right now, we have continuing support by Presbyterian, uh, for administrative and\u2013\u00a0and medical but uh, you know, we don\u2019t know what\u2019s going to happen July 1.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> So you got two weeks to come up with 10,000?<\/p>\n

Lenson: <\/b>We got about a week and a\u2013 (Laughs) Week and a half, yeah.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah. And uh, let\u2019s see. What\u2013\u00a0what uh, what happened to the United Way? Weren\u2019t you trying to get funds from them?<\/p>\n

Lenson: <\/b>Uh, we are<\/i>. We are, we\u2019re trying to get\u2013 As they said, right now, we\u2019re uh applying for emergency funds from United Way, we\u2019re applying for uh, some private funds, uh, we\u2019re\u2013 we\u2019re talking, again, to the San Francisco Foundation, uh\u2013 Yeah, you know, but everybody\u2019s got\u2013 (Laughs) It\u2019s like Catch-22, you know. Well, we meet on such-and-such a date, or we do this or we do that, and, ah, we have not<\/i> received any firm commitment, although a lot of interest.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Lenson: <\/b>Uh\u2013 and uh\u2013 So as we stand right now, we\u2013 we\u2013 we\u2019re just kind of waiting.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Lenson: <\/b>And it\u2019s kind of a limbo period here, I don\u2019t know what uh\u2013\u00a0what\u2019s going to happen. You know, maybe we\u2019ll get two or three people at once, saying, yeah, we\u2019re going to help you, and maybe we won\u2019t get anybody. (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Lenson: <\/b>But uh, we\u2019re really<\/i> working hard on this thing, and uh, we got a lot of people pushing and pulling, and uh, so, we\u2019ll just see what happens.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Okay, I\u2019m glad you uh, let me know, uh\u2013 We\u2019ve got uh, let\u2019s see, a paper going out uh, the newspaper we started in\u2013<\/p>\n

Lenson: <\/b>Uh-huh.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Uh, we want to try to get that in there. Uh\u2013 I hope I haven\u2019t missed the deadline, it\u2019s so uh\u2013 let\u2019s see, when the next will be coming out. I\u2019m not sure. It\u2019s\u2013 Right now, it\u2019s not on our regular schedule. But it\u2019s going throughout the community.<\/p>\n

Lenson: <\/b>Throughout the community, yeah.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> And uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Lenson: <\/b>There\u2019s been quite<\/i> a bit of press on it, we\u2019ve got a lot of play at the papers and uh, TV. Uh, we had it, uh, a news conference. [Channels] 4, 5 and 7 were there, and uh, we\u2013 we\u2019re getting response from the community, but nothing positive<\/i> yet.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah. When was the news conference?<\/p>\n

Lenson: <\/b>We had our news conference, uh, a week before the first, so that\u2019s around, what, the 27th or something like that. We said that we\u2019re going to shut down on the first if we don\u2019t receive money.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> I see.<\/p>\n

Lenson: <\/b>And we\u2019ve had some private contributions come in, but you know, ten dollars here, five dollars there, fifteen\u2013 nothing<\/i> uh, of any great uh, uh, (Pause) shakes that we can uh, count<\/i> on, so we\u2013\u00a0we\u2019ve marked all this money, and if the clinic does stay closed, we\u2019ll re\u2013 obviously we will return all this money to the various people who\u2019ve contributed.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah. Okay. Well, let me uh, communicate this to some people and uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Lenson: <\/b>Okay. Any uh\u2013\u00a0any assistance would be uh, greatly appreciated.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Lenson: <\/b>The fact is, we appreciate your inquiry.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> What was your name?<\/p>\n

Lenson: <\/b>Bill Lenson. I\u2019m the president of the board.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> How do you spell that?<\/p>\n

Lenson: <\/b>L-e-n-s-o-n.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Okay. Thanks so much, Bill.<\/p>\n

Lenson: <\/b>Okay? Thank you.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Talk to you later. Bye.<\/p>\n

Lenson: <\/b>Bye-bye.<\/p>\n

End of tape.<\/strong><\/p>\n

Tape originally posted February 2003<\/b><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you. To return to the Tape Index, click here. To listen to MP3, click here. To read the Tape Summary, click here. [Editor’s note: The Temple’s transcript of Part 3 of this tape appears here.] Part 1: […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":6,"featured_media":0,"parent":27291,"menu_order":455,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-27537","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27537","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/6"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=27537"}],"version-history":[{"count":21,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27537\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":128911,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27537\/revisions\/128911"}],"up":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27291"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=27537"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}