{"id":27540,"date":"2013-06-16T00:20:55","date_gmt":"2013-06-16T00:20:55","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/alternativejonestown.com\/?page_id=27540"},"modified":"2016-02-18T22:44:02","modified_gmt":"2016-02-18T22:44:02","slug":"q686","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=27540","title":{"rendered":"Q686 Transcript"},"content":{"rendered":"

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.<\/strong><\/i><\/p>\n

To return to the Tape Index, click here<\/a>. To listen to MP3, click here<\/a>.
\nTo read the Tape Summary, click here<\/a>.<\/p>\n

(Note<\/strong>: This tape was one of the 53 tapes initially withheld from public disclosure.)<\/em><\/p>\n

Part 1:<\/strong><\/p>\n

Woman leads a child in reciting alphabet and story telling. Tape segment lasts several minutes.<\/p>\n

Part 2: Phone conversation between Temple member and Redwood Valley resident<\/strong><\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> \u2013of the church\u2013<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Oh\u2013<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> \u2013uh, through the school.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> And I had made a couple of remarks on the phone.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> You mean on the radio on the phone.<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> No no no no. Just over the phone. Privately. And uh, about 20 minutes after the remark \u2013 I had made a couple of remarks \u2013 I received a phone call from a person who identified his\u2013 would identify himself only as James, and accused me of making the call the day before on \u201cFeedback\u201d stating\u2013 (tape edit?)<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> \u2013Member of our church that did this?<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> No, he denied being<\/i> a member\u2013<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Oh, oh, oh.<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> But he was setting up for the church.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Oh<\/i>, oh, oh.<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> Now see, I don\u2019t know whether he was or what the situation was, but<\/i> it was a little disturbing to me, like I told him, if I hada been the person that called in, he did not have the right to call me privately and discuss it, because this is a, a public viewing of everybody\u2019s opinion, and if he disagreed with me, he should call the station and\u2013 and give his viewpoint.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Right. Right.<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> Uh\u2013 he wanted to discuss the situation further with me, and I said I didn\u2019t even hear the conversation on the radio, therefore I refused to discuss it. I said I live in the valley, I live next door to Peoples Temple, I\u2019ve had no problems with them, I\u2019ve had really no experience with them, I am ignorant as to their financial status and everything, therefore, would not be making any remarks whatsoever, but did not appreciate him privately calling me.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Oh. Wonder\u2013 I mean, I\u2019m sure it\u2019s not one of our members, because\u2013 I would\u2013\u00a0First of all, I don\u2019t know how they\u2019d get your name and it\u2019d be pretty presumptuous of anybody to\u2013<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> Yeah. Yeah, this<\/i> is so uh\u2013 And it was quite (Pause) uh, like I said, I had made a couple of remarks against this person who\u2013 who I was having trouble with through the school, with one of my children\u2013<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Oh, I\u2013<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> \u2013who is a member of the Peoples Temple, and I got this call like 20 minutes after I had made the remark<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Oh, boy.<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> And they said I had given my last name, and so I think the person was calling because of the remark I had made against this other person<\/i>\u2013 (Pause)<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Hmm.<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> \u2013 who is a member of the Peoples Temple. (Pause) Do you see what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Yes.<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> And I\u2013 So I don\u2019t think it had anything to do with that phone call that came into the station, I think it was\u2013 They were using that as an excuse, because I contacted the station and asked them whether the person who made that phone call gave their first or their last name, and they said they gave their first name. Not their last name. So\u2013<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Oh, oh, who made their\u2013 the\u2013 it\u2013\u00a0who made the very first statement\u2013<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> Yes, uh-huh.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> \u2013who started\u2013 I see what you\u2019re saying.<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> Yeah, but I was accused of being that person. He even said he recognized my voice.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Hmm.<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> So, it was uh, (sighs) I felt it was somewhat threatening in the extent that uh, he was calling saying\u2013 accusing me of making that phone call, when in a sense, he was (Short laugh) calling stating that he knew I had made a remark. And I asked him if it had anything to do with the remark I had made that day, and he said no. But he had no way of getting my phone number, other than through that\u2013 that two phone calls that I made. I had given my phone numbers\u2013<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Well, did you recognize possibly who he<\/i> might have been?<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> No, he said he was an invalid, that he was lonesome, he was by himself and he enjoyed talking on the telephone. And I said that I recommend you get on that phone and talk to Feedback every day and don\u2019t ever call me again\u2013<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Hmm.<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> \u2013because, I said, this isn\u2019t how that\u2019s set up. It\u2019s\u2013 you know, if\u2013 if\u2013 even if I hada made the phone call, I had the right to view my opinion<\/i> even, and then if you disagreed, you had the right to call in and disagree. (Pause) But I didn\u2019t even hear their phone call\u2013 I didn\u2019t even hear<\/i> \u201cFeedback\u201d that day, to even know what the phone call was about, other than hearsay, you know.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Hmm.<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> And then when I read this article, I felt that (Pause) I should, you know, like you said in there if there was (Pause) uh, anything that had been, you know, connected with this to please call and\u2013 and let you know. So all\u2013 all he would give me was, was James. Had he given me his full name and his phone number, I might have talked to him a little bit. But I felt that he had an unfair advantage.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Hmm. And he wouldn\u2019t give you his phone number or anything.<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> No. Or his last name.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> But did you say he was friendly<\/i> towards us? Towards the church?<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> Yes. Uh-huh. Yes. He disagreed with everything that the caller had said.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Well, you say that uh, you know, you have problem[s] with one of the children from the church, with church children, is there anything\u2013 you know, if you could name the child, possibly, we could talk to the child to see if he could help.<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> No, it was\u00ad\u2013 it was an adult. It was my<\/i> child was having problems with one of the adults in the church through\u2013 through the school.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Oh. Through the school.<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> Yes. No, I\u2019d rather not give out any names\u2013<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Oh. Well, is the problem resolved?<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> Uh, I hope so. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Umm.<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> Uh, as far as I can see right now, it is.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Oh, good. That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> So, I\u2019m relieved (laughs) to see\u2013\u00a0But I\u2013 I just\u2013 I honestly feel this person had to be a member of the Peoples Temple, or he wouldn\u2019t have\u2013 (Pause) If he isn\u2019t, he should be.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Well, we get\u2013 Let\u2013 let me tell you, though\u2013<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> If he feels this strongly about it.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> We\u2013 we\u2013\u00a0we get accused of everything. We get accused of\u2013 I mean, people have, you know, give us threatening calls and, you know, like, well, that\u2019s what<\/i> that whole um, you know, article was written up for\u2013 for that very thing, like what (unintelligible under interruption)<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> Yeah, I read the whole thing.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> But really, we get accused for a lot that\u2013 I mean, we haven\u2019t\u2013 I\u2019m sure<\/i> one of our members hasn\u2019t done it. We can check it, but, you know, I\u2019m sure<\/i> that, you know, it wasn\u2019t one of us. But you must, you know, know that we do get accused for a lot, and I\u2019d rather that you not accuse us of that, and so you know\u2013<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> Well, the reason\u2013 like I say, if he isn\u2019t, he should<\/i> be a member, because he\u2019s certainly on your side and\u2013 and, you know, this type of thing, he\u2019s\u2013 I mean, he\u2019s a\u2013 well, it\u2019s like I told him, I\u2013 I didn\u2019t have a right to take sides, because I was not familiar and uh, I\u2013 I live with\u2013 next door to neighbors who are Peoples Temple, and I live in the Valley, and we are surrounded, you know, by the people and we work with them, we live with them, and I had\u2013 I had not taken sides one way or the other<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Oh. That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> And so for him to call and\u2013 and disagree with what I supposedly said\u2013\u00a0and then he\u2013 he even wanted to discuss it after I told him that I did not make the statement<\/i>, but he said he recognized my voice, and that I did make it.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Boy, there\u2019s a pretty, uh, pushy person, wasn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> Yes. And like I told him, I didn\u2019t appreciate uh, him calling me privately because uh, he had no right<\/i>\u2013<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Yeah. It\u2019s a\u2013 you know\u2013<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> You know, and so I called the station, the station said if there was any more, that they would contact the church, and uh, see if something couldn\u2019t be done on<\/i> the situation. But if he called and refuses to give me his name or phone number (unintelligible word) again, I\u2019m going to hang up on him. I\u2019m not going to talk to him.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Well, I appreciate your calling, and it\u2019s having really the freedom to call us, you know, about it.<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> Yeah. When he had my last name\u2013 This is it, you know.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Oh boy. Well, it\u2019s scary<\/i>, isn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> Yeah. It is.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Whoo. Um\u2013 I didn\u2019t\u2013 You say that people live next door to you. Are they\u2013 Are there any problems with them<\/i>?<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> No.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> They don\u2019t give you\u2013<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> (unintelligible word\u2013 sounds like \u201cLaura\u201d)\u2013 Our kids<\/i> don\u2019t get along, uh, so they just don\u2019t play<\/i> together, and there\u2019s no problem. When we first moved here, they played together, but they just\u2013 even though they\u2019re the same age, they go to school<\/i> together, they\u2019re\u2013 they are friends, they\u2019re not enemies, you know, but they just don\u2019t play together. They just aren\u2019t\u2013\u00a0are not compatible.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Well, I\u2019m glad there\u2019s no, you know, problems there other than, you know, just not getting along.<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> No. Huh-uh. No. None at all. As a matter of fact, if I see the people in town, we speak and ask how you are, this type of thing, you know, no, there\u2019s no problems whatsoever with them. And one of the things also that frightens me is that I live by myself with a number of children, and this, (Pause) you know, without a man around, and the fact that this man knew my last name\u2013<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Yeah. Boy.<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> \u2013was, uh, (Pause) was quite weird. (unintelligible word) name and phone number. (Pause) I\u2013 I honestly feel it was connected with the call I made, because I was trying to get some information\u2013<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> I wonder how somebody could get that much information\u2013<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> Well, because I had left my name and phone number on this, on these two calls that I made\u2013<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Ooh.<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> \u2013trying to get some results through the school, \u2018cause the school was supposed to call me back.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Hmm. (Pause) Well, at least<\/i> it wasn\u2019t a threatening call, though.<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> Noo, but I feel indirectly, they were letting me know that I had made those two remarks towards this person who was a member of the Temple.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Well, you\u2013 you don\u2019t think that they believed you when you talked to them, that you weren\u2019t the one?<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> This\u2013 No, this guy didn\u2019t. No.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Huh.<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> Huh-uh. Or<\/i>, he was\u2013 (Pause) Or he was trying to upset me a little bit by uh, making me think<\/i> that he didn\u2019t believe me and that he knew I wasn\u2019t, but I had made these other<\/i> two calls, trying to get a problem<\/i> straightened out, and that he was just more or less letting me know that he knew I had made a remark, one way or the other. And my remark was not against the Peoples Temple, it was against (Pause) a member<\/i>, against a person<\/i> himself that I was having a problem with. The fact that this person was a member of the Peoples Temple had nothing to do with it.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Well, if the\u2013\u00a0I mean\u2013 (sighs) It had something to do\u2013 You\u2019re telling me it had something to do with school then.<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> Yes, I\u2013 Yeah, it was at school that the problem arose.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Gee, I really\u2013<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> And see, I left my name and phone number, and then it was about 20 minutes later I got the call from this<\/i> man. (Pause) So I don\u2019t\u2013 I can\u2019t figure\u2013 I don\u2019t know what the deal was. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Well, I do<\/i> hope that school situation is resolved, and if not, I\u2019d really want you to feel free to, you know, say something so that we could<\/i>, you know, work it out, um\u2013 Do you know what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Because I would hate to have you, you know, if there is any problem to go on with it, you know, because we could probably resolve it so quickly, you know\u2013<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> Well, I know<\/i> it\u2013 the problem is a personality conflict between an adult and one of my children. And it works both ways. It\u2013 so\u2013 Uh, the person does not care for my, my son, and my son does not care for this person.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Well, is it a, um\u2013 it isn\u2019t a, um\u2013\u00a0I hope<\/i> it isn\u2019t a teacher<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> I\u2013 uh\u2013 No, no, but I\u2019d rather not, you know, go into it, to who he is, or, or any of this, you know.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Oh. Whew!<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> But it uh\u2013 I think<\/i> we\u2019ve got it resolved. I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Yeah, because it\u2019d be pretty s\u2013 you know, sad if it were a teacher, having to see that person every day, you know.<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, in a sense I think sometimes that\u2019s good, though, because we\u2019ve all got to live with\u2013<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> \u2013with and around people that we might\u2013<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> \u2013not get along with, \u2018cause it, you know\u2013<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> \u2013not get along with, and, and just despise and, and hate to be even in connected with that we\u2019re forced<\/i> to in, you know, our everyday life, as we go along, and I think sometimes, when a child has to do this, I\u2019ve always encouraged my kids to stick it out and see it through, and make the best of it.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Right. I\u2019ve found too\u2013 I have found too that some of the people that I couldn\u2019t get along with at all, have become my best friends, you know, even teachers in school, you know, that I had the worst time, by the end of the semester, whatever, you know, I ended up appreciating them the most.<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> Yes, and my son\u2013 my son found a situation like that. I\u2019ll never forget one, and it hasn\u2019t been too many years ago, I was a captain on a bowling league, and we had uh, four captains and our 16 girls<\/i>, and we were to put the girls\u2019 names in a hat and draw our three names out, you know, for the rest of our team, and I said, no way<\/i> am I going to draw names out, I do know who I\u2019ll get, I\u2019ll get this certain gal, that her and I don\u2019t get along. And she just really disliked me immensely. I\u2013 I don\u2019t have too much problem with people. I can give or take, you know, I can run into my worst enemy and say, \u201cHi, how are you?\u201d You know.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Um-hmm.<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> And\u2013 and truly mean it, because I know there\u2019s good in all people. And uh, everybody says, oh no, you won\u2019t get her name, and so I said, all right, I agreed to draw names, and (Laughs) I\u2019ll be darned if hers wasn\u2019t the first name I drew. And I thought oh no<\/i>, you know, and the first three days I bowled, I was just<\/i> really upset, and I got to thinking, that I wasn\u2019t hurting her a bit, I was hurting me\u2013<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> \u2013and I was going to have to live with this situation, and so uh, really it got so that she was sort of the laughingstock of the team, because uh, if we lost, she\u2019d complain how I bowled, if we won, she\u2019d brag how she bowled, you know, and everybody got so it was sort of a hysterical thing, because they knew just what was going to happen, you know, that she was going to either go bragging or bitching<\/i>, one of the two, you know, and uh, when I sit back and see<\/i> it, why she really, uh, made enemies out of being this way, and by me going along and\u2013 and not letting it bother<\/i> me, which was very difficult for me to do at the time, but I did. But I just had to resign myself to the fact that I was going to be bowling with her, and\u2013 and put up with her every week, and that was it, and not to get upset and irritated over the things that she did<\/i>, and I\u2013 I was very proud of myself and I felt much better for it after I had done it, so it was a hard<\/i> lesson to go through, but I\u2013 this is what I try to teach my kids, that sometimes we are just forced with people that we cannot get along with, and we have<\/i> to.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Well, that\u2019s a good way to teach\u2013 you know, most people wouldn\u2019t see it that way, and that\u2019s pretty good. (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> Well, I think we have to, \u2018cause\u2013 (laughs) Well, I\u2019ll tell you, there\u2019s times, you know, you have to work right next to somebody that you dislike, and\u2013 and dislike their ways and you, you can<\/i> bicker and fight and argue all the time, and so, you know, there\u2019s no sense in it, because they\u2019re both human beings and have their rights and\u2013 and this type of thing, so you gotta try to get along, is the way I feel about it, so I think<\/i> I\u2019ve got my problem resolved. I don\u2019t know. I think it\u2019s about a fifty-fifty situation with my son and this other person, it\u2019s about fifty-fifty, so uh, I hope they got it solved anyhow.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> So do I.<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> I\u2019m not sure. (Laughs) Okay, then. Well, thank you.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Thank you so much for calling.<\/p>\n

Mother:<\/b> Mmm-hmm. Bye-bye.<\/p>\n

Temple Member:<\/b> Bye-bye.<\/p>\n

Two minutes of silence<\/p>\n

\n

Part 3: Mike Prokes and unidentified woman try to get tape recorder to work<\/strong><\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> It moves when I talk.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> It\u2019s not doing nothing<\/i> now.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> When I\u2013<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> \u2013recording. (Pause) What the hell\u2019s wrong with this thing?<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> Leave it.<\/p>\n

Man:<\/b> Well, it\u2019s\u2013 it\u2019s\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> It\u2019s moving (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Yeah. It didn\u2019t move when I\u00ad\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> Well, when I used the uh\u2013 you know, the phone thing? It works. It goes chik-chik-chik.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/b> Well, it would. I start praising the machine, and all of a sudden, it goes\u2013 It\u2019s messed up.<\/p>\n

Several moments of silence<\/p>\n

\n

Part 4: Conversation between Temple member and radio station management<\/strong><\/p>\n

Phone rings.<\/p>\n

Receptionist:<\/b> Good Advertising. KDKI.<\/p>\n

\u201cProkes\u201d:<\/b> Hi. May I please speak to Mr. DeMur, please?<\/p>\n

Receptionist: <\/b>May I ask who\u2019s calling, please?<\/p>\n

\u201cProkes\u201d:<\/b> I\u2019m Mike Prokes, Assistant Pastor at uh, Peoples Temple Christian Church.<\/p>\n

Receptionist:<\/b> Okay, one moment, please.<\/p>\n

(Pause for several moments)<\/p>\n

DeMur: <\/b>Vic DeMur speaking.<\/p>\n

\u201cProkes\u201d:<\/b> Mr. DeMur?<\/p>\n

DeMur: <\/b>Yes.<\/p>\n

\u201cProkes\u201d:<\/b> Hi, I\u2019m Mike Prokes, Assistant Pastor with Peoples Temple Christian Church.<\/p>\n

DeMur: <\/b>Uh-huh.<\/p>\n

\u201cProkes\u201d:<\/b> Uh, Pastor Jones received your letter about the Christmas program, and uh, he asked me to let you know that, as yet we don\u2019t have<\/i> one, uh, but we would be willing to contribute financially.<\/p>\n

DeMur: <\/b>Um-hmm<\/i>. (Pause) Uhh. In other words, you don\u2019t have a\u2013 a choir or anything that is going to be doing any participating at all this year.<\/p>\n

\u201cProkes\u201d:<\/b> Well, of course, we do<\/i> have a choir, but we won\u2019t\u2013\u00a0we won\u2019t be in the area, so far as I know\u2013<\/p>\n

DeMur: <\/b>Oh.<\/p>\n

\u201cProkes\u201d:<\/b> \u2013at uh, at that time, so it\u2019d be pretty hard to uh, uh, you know, commit our resources.<\/p>\n

DeMur: <\/b>Yeah. Since you\u2019re not going to be here, it makes it a little difficult, doesn\u2019t it.<\/p>\n

\u201cProkes\u201d:<\/b> It would be a little\u2013 little tough.<\/p>\n

DeMur: <\/b>All right, uh\u2013 But you would like to contribute financially to it?<\/p>\n

\u201cProkes\u201d:<\/b> Uh, yes, Pastor\u2019d be, be more than happy to do<\/i> that.<\/p>\n

DeMur: <\/b>Okay. Why don\u2019t uh\u2013\u00a0why don\u2019t we get back to you a little further down the line when we have everything arranged and, and get some positive feedback as to how many people we\u2019re gonna have, and uh, possibly we can put on a show for you<\/i>, uh, from here.<\/p>\n

\u201cProkes\u201d:<\/b> Well, that might be very nice.<\/p>\n

DeMur: <\/b>In other words, uh, rather than\u2013\u00a0(unintelligible word)\u2013 we\u2019ll just\u2013 you can contribute in the, in the way of sponsorship<\/i>, and we\u2019ll just put on a show for you.<\/p>\n

\u201cProkes\u201d:<\/b> Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Okay. Well.<\/p>\n

DeMur: <\/b>Okay?<\/p>\n

\u201cProkes\u201d:<\/b> Right. And uh\u2013 Pastor did want me to convey to you that we really<\/i> appreciate your help in our recent ordeal.<\/p>\n

DeMur: <\/b>Oh, well that\u2019s quite all right. Uh, we had a (unintelligible word\u2013 could be \u201clittle\u201d or \u201cother\u201d) situation uh, I believe yesterday come up on that.<\/p>\n

\u201cProkes\u201d:<\/b> Oh, you did<\/i>?<\/p>\n

DeMur: <\/b>Yeah, where some people decide they want to discuss uh, your situation, so we had to cut \u2018em off the air and just go to something else.<\/p>\n

\u201cProkes\u201d:<\/b> Uh-huh.<\/p>\n

DeMur: <\/b>I guess that\u2019s going to continue for some time, but luckily, we\u2019ve got all the switches in the right place now, so we don\u2019t have to put up with that stuff. (Laughs)<\/p>\n

\u201cProkes\u201d:<\/b> Uh-huh.<\/p>\n

DeMur: <\/b>(Clears throat) So I guess everything will work out, as long as we can just uh, I\u2013 it\u2019s gonna take a while for people to understand that there\u2019re just certain subjects we\u2019re not going to tolerate on the air.<\/p>\n

\u201cProkes\u201d:<\/b> Right, and I wonder if anyone, uh, had contacted\u2013\u00a0or attempted to contact Pastor about that.<\/p>\n

DeMur: <\/b>What, yesterday<\/i>?<\/p>\n

\u201cProkes\u201d:<\/b> Uh-huh.<\/p>\n

DeMur: <\/b>No, \u2018cause the only uh\u2013 nothing was ever said, it was uh, it was the type of thing where the lady called in, and she said, I want to talk about Peoples Temple, and that was the end of the conversation right there, we just cut her off the air, and it wasn\u2019t\u2013 didn\u2019t even pursue it any further, so, you know\u2013 (Laughs) it was just one of these things where, I guess that type of thing is gonna keep happening as long\u2013\u00a0until they realize that they\u2019re gonna be cut off the air and not discuss it\u2013<\/p>\n

\u201cProkes\u201d:<\/b> Uh-huh.<\/p>\n

DeMur: <\/b>Uh\u2013 It\u2019s gonna take a while for them to understand it. (unintelligible word under interruption)<\/p>\n

\u201cProkes\u201d:<\/b> Well, we certainly appreciate your attitude, it\u2019s uh\u2013<\/p>\n

DeMur: <\/b>Oh, that\u2019s quite all right<\/i>, I, you know, I don\u2019t\u2013 I don\u2019t mind uh, you know\u2013 as long as something is newsworthy and is beneficial to the community, I\u2019m will\u2013\u00a0I\u2019m willing to put it on the air, but when it starts sticking people in the eye<\/i>, uh, you know, that\u2019s no fun at all.<\/p>\n

\u201cProkes\u201d:<\/b> Well\u2013<\/p>\n

DeMur: <\/b>There\u2019s gotta be better things to do with your time. (Laughs)<\/p>\n

\u201cProkes\u201d:<\/b> Certainly. Certainly so. And I will pass that on to Pastor.<\/p>\n

DeMur: <\/b>Okay. And if uh, there\u2019s anything else we can do to help you, just give us a holler.<\/p>\n

\u201cProkes\u201d:<\/b> Okay, thank you very much\u2013<\/p>\n

DeMur: <\/b>Okedoke.<\/p>\n

\u201cProkes\u201d:<\/b> \u2013and we\u2019ll be waiting to hear from you.<\/p>\n

DeMur: <\/b>Thank you.<\/p>\n

\u201cProkes\u201d:<\/b> Uh-huh. Bye now.<\/p>\n

DeMur: <\/b>Bye.<\/p>\n

(Silence for several moments)<\/p>\n

\n

Part 5: Unintelligible murmuring, clicks of phone equipment<\/b><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

Part 6: Conversation between Jim Jones and Dennis Denny<\/b><\/p>\n

Phone rings.<\/p>\n

Receptionist: <\/b>Social Services. May we help you?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes, uh, Mr. Denny, please.<\/p>\n

Receptionist: <\/b>May I say who\u2019s calling, sir?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Reverend Jones. Thank you.<\/p>\n

Receptionist: <\/b>Thank you.<\/p>\n

(Pause)<\/p>\n

Secretary: <\/b>Good afternoon. Mr. Denny\u2019s office.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes, is Mr. Denny in?<\/p>\n

Secretary: <\/b>Hold on, please.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Thank you.<\/p>\n

(Pause)<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>This is Mr. Denny.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes, Mr. Denny. Jim Jones.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Hi, Jim.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I came to you, uh, just as you came to me the other day. I\u2019m slightly infuriated, and maybe without cause. Mrs. uh, Marable [Birdie Marable] called one of our people, and said, \u201cYou were in trouble with the welfare,\u201d that she\u2019d been in to welfare and heard that we were in trouble with the welfare. And of course, that may be paranoia striking too deep, but I thought, (stumbles over words), and she\u2019d bragged that she\u2019d been given three extra patients, and this uh, this slightly infuriated me, if I thought that some worker there would uh, air difficulties that really do not reflect (unintelligible under Denny)\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>When was she in here? Did\u2013 Did your information tell you that?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I didn\u2019t get\u2013 I did not, uh. Said she was in, in<\/i> the welfare\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>I will look into it immediately, personally\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> \u2013and uh, I\u2013 I don\u2019t, uh\u2013\u00a0I\u2019m just assuming, \u201cin trouble with the welfare\u201d could mean any number of innuendoes or gossip, but uh, the coincidence\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Well, Mrs. Marable\u2013 yeah, Mrs. Marable, as you well know, and I\u2019m surely not insinuating that this is accurate, because I will check out the other side of it, but she is notorious<\/i> for the ability to play two uh, ends against the middle and this is uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, I\u2013 that\u2013\u00a0that makes me feel good that\u00ad (unintelligible under Denny)<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>\u2013but she\u2019s always been a problem, but I don\u2019t want to beg off that that is in fact<\/i> what has occurred here. I want to get to the bottom of it\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, I\u2019m\u2013 I\u2019m\u2013 I\u2019m going to d\u2013 deal with this woman in the court<\/i>, if she doesn\u2019t quit harassing<\/i> us. There\u2019s certainly some\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Well, she\u2019s starting to, uh\u2013\u00a0she\u2019s uh, I\u2013 I could possibly apply the same uh, uh, same tone<\/i> to uh, to what she\u2019s doing to us, because she knows, there are (unintelligible word), well\u2013 uh, I\u2019ve already stated this to Tim [Stoen], and I\u2013 I felt that\u2013 I don\u2019t feel I\u2019m\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Umm-hmm. I\u2013 You don\u2019t\u2013 Don\u2019t\u2013 Don\u2019t feel that you need to express\u2013\u00a0(unintelligible under Denny)<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>All right, I want\u2013 (unintelligible under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I don\u2019t\u2013 I didn\u2019t have the slightest doubt about you, but\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>No. But these people are asking\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I\u2019m\u2013 I\u2013\u00a0I know that I cannot control my department and uh, I\u2013 entirely. I try<\/i> very hard to control this large congregation, and uh, I\u2019m\u2013 and I\u2019m not in no way, uh, has my faith uh, been slightly, even slightly affected by this in reference to you, but I don\u2019t\u2013 That\u2019s why, when Mr. McWiggin calls, uh, if um, if you\u2019d tell him to stress that he\u2019s authorized or something, or if he\u2019s calling, I\u2019ll ask you, uh, he\u2019s calling wanting to speak to Mr. or Mrs. Beam, Senior [Jack and Rheaviana Beam]. I don\u2019t have the slightest paranoia when I\u2019m dealing with you. Anything you ask me to do, I will do with, with great willingness. But when other people call, I get uh\u2013 (unintelligible under Denny)<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Well, he\u2019s acting\u2013 Let\u2013 Let me, first of all, before I leave this topic, I will handle that personally, I will do that as soon as I hang up. Uh, as to whether or not she\u2019s been in here in the last couple of days, whether or not any of the staff was\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I think it was\u2013 She said, (stumbles over words) I\u2019m only recalling now from, uh, second hand, that I think it was uh, two days ago.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Okay, well, two days ago, all right. So that would put it at Wednesday, uh, if she was in here, I\u2019ll see the log and I\u2019ll see who she talked to, uh, if she was in physically or if we had her on the telephone.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> And I thought that would be uh, a terrible<\/i>, a terrible thing that uh, people wouldn\u2019t have any more discretion than that, um, to\u2013\u00a0to make reflections on the church in the first place\u2013 If a Catholic<\/i> uh, came in there and in some way violated some code, uh, the whole Catholic Church wouldn\u2019t be brought in to question<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>That\u2019s correct. That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Um\u2013\u00a0in first place, if this wasn\u2019t an unusual case in an unusual lad<\/i> that had helped 15 other young people in a very positive<\/i> way, I would uh, this kind of a case, I\u2013 I\u2019m mortified<\/i>, to say the least, that in mem\u2013\u00a0one of my<\/i> members would be even be suggested<\/i> that they would be involved in child abuse. I\u2019m mortified<\/i>. Uh, but then, again, uh, the whole church shouldn\u2019t have been judged<\/i> by that\u2013 and our inference is made to\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>But my\u2013 my problem is, and my concern is, if it\u2019s a problem, is that that could happen<\/i>, and I don\u2019t want that to happen<\/i>, if I can uh, stay away from it.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, I don\u2019t think it would be with Margaret. Margaret\u2019s usually her contact. Margaret has been cordial\u2013 it didn\u2019t\u2013\u00a0didn\u2019t happen with any planning, but we just so happen to employ, I think her son or her nephew, I don\u2019t know which it was, has an attorney, and he\u2019s a very crackerjack attorney\u2013 (unintelligible under Denny)<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Well, we should pledge\u2013\u00a0we should judge people\u00ad\u2013 (unintelligible under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> We\u2019re looking forward to giving him<\/i> more, uh, more work. But uh, since that time, so I\u2019ve heard, uh, off whatever \u2013 maybe that didn\u2019t have anything<\/i> to do with it \u2013 but her attitude has been um, not as bitey or uh, there\u2019s not been the snide<\/i> remarks that we pick up in the uh, community rumor mill. Uh\u2013 So I\u2013 I don\u2019t know who<\/i> it would have been. She didn\u2019t quote<\/i> anyone. She just said that \u201cYou are in trouble with the welfare, ha ha ha.\u201d And uh, that\u2013 that kind of an attitude, and uh\u2013 (unintelligible under Denny) she boasts\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>But she didn\u2019t uh, indicate uh, she didn\u2019t indicate\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> She did not stress what<\/i> kind of trouble.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Or she didn\u2019t indicate who the conversation was with.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> No, nor did she pinpoint the individual. Uh, but I felt, rather than let this thing get into my gut\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>No, sir, I will take\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> \u2013I wanted to do just as you did, to call me directly and uh\u2013\u00a0(unintelligible under Denny)<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Right. I appreciate that. I want\u2013\u00a0I will\u2013 As I said, I will handle it personally. I will uh, I\u2019ll find that out uh, exactly what occurred there. But I\u2013 I\u2019m al\u2013 I\u2019m really fearful of this lady, uh, she is uh, she plays the same game with us, so we\u2019ve had other, I might add, other complaints, I don\u2019t know if I\u2019m sharing things with you, but we\u2019ve had other complaints\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Ah, you\u2019ve never\u2013\u00a0you\u2019ve never found me yet<\/i> quote you, I\u2019m sure.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Yeah\u2013 And I don\u2019t uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> And you\u2019ll not find me doing it in the future.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Uh. There was another point about her that uh, that came up, uh. Oh, what I\u2013 what I\u2019d said is I\u2019d mentioned to Tim that her license is in jeopardy, and she knows<\/i> it. Uh, and I think that she\u2019s\u2013 she will play uh, you know, the, the role of uh, of trying to get on the good side<\/i>, when it actually is the worst side she can possibly be<\/i> in such a malicious way. This woman is malicious<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, uh, she\u2019s that, and I\u2013 that\u2019s why I said to you this week, when you started to tell me, you were dealing with that, I said, I have the implicit trust in you that you will handle that situation. But then I thought, some worker, if they\u2019re giving her patients, which seem to me uh, a[n] odd thing to do with a woman who I know to be not only vicious<\/i> but to be uh, physical<\/i>, uh, physically abusive<\/i>, uh, I\u2013 I thought maybe some worker was not aware what they were doing.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>She uh\u2013 I\u2013\u00a0No, someone has uh\u2013 I had information that there was someone had uh, placed two people there that had known her\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I had privately\u2013 Well, you know\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>\u2013she was\u2013\u00a0it was not an actually placement from our\u2013\u00a0our department\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> No, we had nothing to do about that.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>No, it was that she went out and recruited, in quotes, she did the recruitment on s\u2013 on\u2013 I knew of a couple<\/i>, now, I don\u2019t know of a third, but I know of two.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, she\u2019s a liar. She could not\u2013 She possibly doesn\u2019t even have<\/i> all of her beds filled, but she\u2013 Well, and that\u2019s uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Well, I don\u2019t know if she does or doesn\u2019t, I know of the one instance of how she got some people.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> But anyway, she was bragging about it, and\u2013 and bothering<\/i> one of our people, and she calls our rest home, the geriatric home next to the church, she calls that constantly<\/i>, where the people live voluntarily there together, and\u2013 and manage their own affairs, uh, she\u2019s always<\/i> calling those people and harassing them, and I\u2013 I don\u2019t\u2013\u00a0I\u2019m going to take it into hand if she doesn\u2019t uh, ah, she claims it now, she\u2019s found uh, uh, Jesus (unintelligible word) with uh, some uh\u2013\u00a0some new group, and um, I\u2013 I\u2019m glad for her, but it doesn\u2019t bespeak, if she\u2019s found a new renewal of uh, of Christ that\u2013 that she thinks is better than what we<\/i> have to offer, uh, it doesn\u2019t bespeak in her character. I wished the woman certainly could<\/i> get transformed. Uh, we miserably failed with her, although she didn\u2019t come to church enough to get any real influence from our teachings. But uh, it\u2019s\u2013 I would welcome<\/i> a transformation in that woman\u2019s life. But it isn\u2019t coming through, and uh, I don\u2019t<\/i> appreciate her goading us. But that\u2019s not your problem. The problem that did concern me was, that in\u2013\u00a0if someone in the welfare had no more sense<\/i> than to tell her that, I uh\u2013\u00a0I knew you\u2019d want to know about it.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>I do want to know about it, and uh, I\u2019m going to take uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> And it may not be that at all, she may be just guessing\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>I don\u2019t know, I don\u2019t know, but I\u2019m going to find out.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> All right.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Ah, (sighs) I had another point, and I\u2019m sorry I lost that, uh, Jim, while I had you on the line.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I\u2019m fine. I\u2019m sorry. I have a tendency to chatter too much.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>I was working this morning trying to get those charges eliminated on this criminal side, and uh, I\u2019m not making much headway. I gotta spend more time, I guess, I don\u2019t know what the hell is happening in that D.A.\u2019s office, uh, really, to be honest with you. Maybe you have better insight into that than I do\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Uh, Duncan (unintelligible sentence, including name said three times) \u2013press those charges?<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Pardon?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> They\u2019re considering to press charges against him?<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Well, uh, what I want him is to be not even to consider<\/i> them, and I don\u2019t know where in the hell they are, or what they\u2019re going to do<\/i>, and uh, that bothers me right now. Uh. But that\u2019s my problem, uh, to see where, what this\u2013 what they\u2019re going to do with whatever the sheriff\u2019s office ever came up with that.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Hmm.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>So, uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, I know this, uh, I\u2013 all the support I\u2019ve given to some of these, these people, that uh, have met the difference in their\u2013 their careers, I\u2013 I\u2013\u00a0I just don\u2019t\u2013\u00a0I\u2019ve never asked them for one kindly favor, never one time have I talked to any, any one of them, um, the sheriff or<\/i> Duncan James, until this time came up. And this young man\u2019s total behavior and character is so redemptive, that I\u2013 I uh\u2013\u00a0well, I\u2013 if they\u2013 if they do that, I\u2013 my whole tone of support will change, that\u2019s all. I\u2019m\u2013\u00a0I\u2019m uh, I\u2019m disgusted with them, if they would\u2013 if they would pursue that uh, a criminal matter.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Well, I\u2019m trying to uh\u2013\u00a0(Short laugh) As I have pledged to you, that I will not uh, have you uh, you know, uh, criticize that pledge, uh. When I give my word that I\u2019m going to try to do something, I\u2019m going to do<\/i> it. And you know, there\u2019re certain\u2013\u00a0There are always limitations, but at least my action will uh, hopefully be proven<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> No, we\u2013\u00a0we\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>And uh, I\u2019m not making any headway today, and I\u2019m getting a little antsy about that.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> The response<\/i> was, that there wasn\u2019t\u2013 uh, the response that I got, uh, which I know you wouldn\u2019t uh, say, you wouldn\u2019t quote me, that would\u2013\u00a0that\u2013 that\u2013\u00a0that ordinarily this type of thing will not go, uh, to any prosecution<\/i>. But now, what\u2013 what\u2019s the new uh, element?<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>I don\u2019t know that there is any new element, unless uh, anything has happened uh, later this afternoon, uh. Have you had any word, uh, sometime today at all on that, or is it uh\u2013 (unintelligible word under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> No, I haven\u2019t talked\u2013\u00a0because I<\/i> was sort of relieved<\/i> of that<\/i> side of it, and I was only interested in working with you, because they relieved my mind<\/i> somewhat of that<\/i>. Uh, and I was\u2013 (unintelligible word under Denny)<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Today?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> No, no, that was uh, on Monday, but they supposedly had all the facts \u2013 I think it was Monday \u2013\u00a0they had all the facts before them by then, um\u2013 and I was only interested in getting a resolution and\u2013\u00a0to work with you to where to place<\/i> the youngster. I didn\u2019t know that there was a criminal thing being\u00a0in any further consideration. What, did they give you some indication there\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Well, I haven\u2019t seen any\u2013\u00a0I haven\u2019t seen that being resolved<\/i>, Jim, and that\u2019s what I\u2019m concerned about. It\u2019s Friday. And I don\u2019t know where in the hell that is.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, I\u2019ve got no\u2013\u00a0Did we mean there\u2019s a complaint laying someplace (unintelligible phrase under Denny)<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Well, the sheriff is going to do something with, with the matter. And if it sits for five days<\/i>, you know, I want\u2013\u00a0I want to know<\/i>, uh, and uh, I\u2019m not getting very good answers, so\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Have you talked to John Dahl himself?<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Well, I haven\u2019t done that, and uh, I don\u2019t like to do that, uh, at this point in time, but maybe\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, he\u2019d spoken of having a very uh, courteous and close relationship with you, so\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Well, I have a very uh, close relationship with him, but I like to keep uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> No, I\u2013\u00a0I don\u2019t want\u2013 I don\u2019t want you to compromise your (unintelligible phrase under Denny)<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>(unintelligible phrase under Jones) \u2013business issue with uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (stumbles over words) I had talked to him about some of these matters, which I have clear witnesses of, uh, that uh, the uh, bias of uh, some\u2013 one deputy<\/i>. Now that one deputy<\/i> may want to hound the thing, but uh, I\u2013 it\u2019d be ill-advised<\/i>, because certainly, if it gets to court, I\u2019m going to bring in<\/i> some of these factors. Uh, I would think it\u2019d be ill-advised<\/i> for him to uh, to push<\/i> that. I di\u2013\u00a0I didn\u2019t get any feeling that John Dahl was wanting anything more than whatever the welfare<\/i> department uh, came up with, what\u2013 I\u2019m not your\u2013 I mean the custodial services, whatever it came up with was more or less what it seemed to stand, and uh, and, and Mr. Ford Duncan, the feeling was that he was<\/i> a supporter of corporal punishment, and provided that uh, the child had uh, incorrigible patterns like this\u2013 now I\u2019m paraphrasing, and please don\u2019t quote me\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>No, no.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> But this is in essence what he said<\/i>, that in cases like this, he just wouldn\u2019t do anything about it, uh, (stumbles over words), long as you\u2013 I spoke well of him, well of you<\/i> to him, and uh, that I was immediately in contact with you about it, I didn\u2019t make any commitment of, of, of you, uh, no way<\/i> did I commit you about<\/i> the matter, I didn\u2019t even discuss what we\u2019d discussed, other than to say, that I\u2019d been in close contact with you, and you have been always so good to be fair on every matter<\/i>. And I said I knew<\/i> there was no, uh, (stumbles over words) uh, no one out for blood<\/i> in your department. That may have been a little far out, um, because I don\u2019t know everybody that\u2019s in your department. But uh, that was the\u2013 I think that was reasonably what I said, and I know<\/i> that a superintendent of education called<\/i> him, telling him they didn\u2019t want any prosecution. So uh, it uh, it\u2019s uh, it\u2019s a, it\u2019s a situation that you\u2019re probably much more familiar with than how the wh\u2013 the wheels grind<\/i>. I\u2019ve never had one of my people in court, but\u2013 but one time, one time, and uh, he was clearly guilty of something, using some slugs in the parking meter, and the police, the chief of police, this uh, officer was good enough to call us and ask what to do, and I said, what has he done, and he said, well, he put some slugs, uh, he works for the newspaper, and he used some slugs, uh, different ones in the newspaper had been using slugs in parking meters. I said, well, that\u2019s against our teachings. So he asked\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>That was a very foolish thing to do\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> \u2013 he\u2019d have to face the music. Now that\u2019s the only c\u2013\u00ad case I ever know, and I nev\u2013 we<\/i> didn\u2019t lift a finger to defend him. We said, \u201cFace the music. You\u2019ve been taught better than that, this dishonest thing to do,\u201d but in this case, the only reason I\u2019m in it, Mr. Denny\u2013 Now I were\u2013\u00a0if this man had had any pattern of child abuse, and he had been a uh, individual who had not had the greatest<\/i> of sympathies to human beings, you wouldn\u2019t have found me even call you once<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>I know that.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I\u2019da said, \u201cTake your music,\u201d and I would detach myself from the nefarious situation. It\u2019s already mortifying<\/i> enough that uh\u2013\u00a0whatever he spanked with, uh, even if it was a switch<\/i>, he spanked too hard \u2013 that\u2019s my conclusion \u2013 or there wouldn\u2019t be this issue.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Jim, you know\u2013 you know that in my professional and educational and in experience in dealing, that you know<\/i> in your own mind that whatever decision I made on that issue, was precisely to those facts and nothing else.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Uh, I\u2019m sure\u2013 I\u2019m sure by what you\u2019re saying that that supports that, uh, it was\u2013 it was in such a situation that one could not ignore facts<\/i> uh, from uh, uh, mini\u2013 in an attempt to minimize that there was no way to<\/i> do that, especially when you\u2019ve got so many witnesses. (Laughs) It gets very difficult.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, this\u2013 this\u2013\u00a0the\u2013 the only thing I<\/i> could say, that I do think is a certain mitigating circumstances uh, circumstance is that a\u2013 an incorrigible<\/i> uh, who has been adjudged, and we have evidence of that uh, both being sociopathic and uh, pathological in his lying, and kleptomaniac, what in the name of heaven, anyone could understand the dilemma where the school has asked<\/i> him on one occasion to spank and asked for permission<\/i>, the former<\/i> principal, to spank him, you can understand how the kid got into<\/i> this, uh, spanking business, which is (stumbles over words) disapproved<\/i> of by me, it certainly should have seemed that\u2013 that the uh\u2013 the arresting officer would have some, uh\u2013 knowing<\/i> the background of this lad, would have a slight<\/i> bit of empathy uh, for a lad who\u2019s never had an arrest record, and who in fact had a degree<\/i> in social service, though he\u2019s now a gr\u2013 he runs a garage, uh, it looks to me that they uh, they would\u2019ve looked<\/i> into that, and our entire church has never once had one of their people arrested, says something for the kind of teaching<\/i> and character and integrity<\/i> of, of an organization. And that\u2019s all I was asking. It\u2019s\u2013 it\u2019s probably bordering on asking consideration<\/i>, but I never have before<\/i>, and I certainly have been asked<\/i> for consideration. When people want votes<\/i>, they don\u2019t hesitate to ask<\/i> me for consideration, and I have produced<\/i>, and I have brought uh, some good people into government in this, in this county, uh, which I\u2019da\u2013 I would do again<\/i>, but it\u2013 it seems to me that it ought to be a two-way street, that when a young man has<\/i> all these decent things that can be documented \u2013 I don\u2019t ask anyone to take my word for it \u2013 but they can be documented that he has all this background of good character, that they ought not<\/i> to hang him on one incident.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Well, this is now\u2013 now we\u2019re coming to a point in Mr. McWiggin\u2019s uh, responsibilities uh, that he has in the department. What we\u2019re attempting to show is that good character, Mr., uh, Jim.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, I\u2019m sure you are, I (unintelligible phrase under Denny) any doubt about it\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Uh\u2013 The only\u2013 Because the, the facts<\/i> that are presented uh, will relate to character and uh, what will\u2013 what is being done uh, and I think you asked about this, that whoever is seen or questioned, it is to support<\/i> or uh, our particular theory and findings if you will of uh, of good moral fortitude and, and\u2013 (unintelligible word under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, I\u2013 I\u2013 I have no doubt about you. As I\u2019ve said, if you ever lost your position there, I\u2019d like to be the first to have the opportunity to hire<\/i> you, but when Mr. McWiggin was giving him candy and sending candy up to Mrs. uh, Rubin and saying that uh, that they\u2019d like to talk to you, I thought that this was slightly lacking in the kind of protocol to deal with the troubled child, um\u2013 but maybe I\u2019m\u2013 maybe I\u2019m out of touch<\/i> with uh, social services. I used to, years ago, I worked in the uh, Ohio County welfare department when I was going to college. But uh, I\u2013 I know I\u2019m not abreast of all the\u2013\u00a0the patterns, but it seemed<\/i> like it was a very indulgent behavior<\/i>, from what was described to me.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Well, what you\u2013 any, any kind of m\u2013 methodology is acceptable if it\u2019s effective. If it is not effective, then somebody\u2019s shown misjudgment, and that\u2019s about the easiest uh, principle we\u2019ve found. (unintelligible word under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> The one thing we have found, and I think you made comment<\/i>, and I took it to heart<\/i>, you made comment to one of our workers and they passed it on to me, don\u2019t reinforce, don\u2019t reward with material<\/i> things. Well, we rarely do. Usually our reinforcement is uh, trips and\u2013 and uh, educational experiences, or use of the pool and various things of that nature. But we\u2019ve<\/i> found that this kid<\/i> is the most manipulative<\/i> youngster in the world<\/i>, and if he think he\u2019s got you conned<\/i>, there\u2019s no end to what he will do. Some\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Well, he\u2019ll play out his string on it.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Someone approached us there, (stumbles over words) approached one of us and said, uh, do you have a bicycle<\/i>? Well, they\u2013 he\u2013 they said he had a bicycle, and they wanted it. Well, if he\u2019s got a bicycle, he had to s\u2013\u00a0had to steal<\/i> it, because he was going\u2013 the\u2013\u00a0the Beams were going to buy him one for Christmas<\/i>. And that\u2019s just how fast an operator he is<\/i>. If he hasn\u2019t, I\u2019ll bet my lower teeth, which I still have \u2013 and my uppers \u2013 I\u2019ll bet them both that uh, he\u2019s already<\/i> stolen, because the kid doesn\u2019t know how\u2013 it\u2013 it seems to be almost a compulsive pattern with him, um, and I\u2013 who wouldn\u2019t be, I\u2019m not\u2013 God, I wished that Jack and I had known. I wish we\u2019d all<\/i> known that he had been uh, witnessed his mother being murdered uh, and then have to wipe up the blood. If that\u2019s the truth, then he should never<\/i> have even been spanked even lightly<\/i>, in my opinion.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>I question uh\u2013 At this point in time, I question uh, that uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> You think that\u2019s just another one of his (unintelligible word under Denny) bizarre stories\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Well, our findings in that bizarre story is rather bizarre at best.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Uh, we have the\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Oh, you relieve a burden of guilt, don\u2019t\u2013 I\u2019ve had a lot of guilt about this. By the way, to make you\u2013 I told Mr. McWiggin, or I had one of my secretaries tell him, that I thought it would get back to you, because I didn\u2019t want to take more of your time, I said uh\u2013 I didn\u2019t know this is\u2013 this is going to come up\u2013 I wanted you to know, I have given an\u2013 uh, the strongest order that I can give\u2013<\/p>\n

End of side one<\/b><\/p>\n

Side two<\/b><\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>\u2013they apparently, the boy\u2019d given some with many respects, and that is, uh, I\u2013 I have a, a deep feeling, I think, uh, concerning such situations. The easy things, Jim, are easy for everybody\u2013 I don\u2019t want easy things. I want to do more<\/i> than just what\u2019s easy. I\u2013 I\u2013 you know, too many people are willing to sit back and not take risks<\/i>, uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes, but I don\u2019t want to cause risks for you<\/i>. Uh\u2013 uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>No. You\u2019ve never\u2013 you know\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, this guardianship business, the whole blessed guardianship<\/i> business, from what I gathered after talking to you, that our<\/i> people didn\u2019t pick up, and they were deeply apologetic, that we are in\u2013 uh, we\u2019re not\u2013\u00a0we\u2019re on a best uneasy ground with the whole guardianship principle<\/i>. And that\u2019s what I want to get out of.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>You\u2013 well, yes. And uh\u2013 But uh, that was\u2013 that was the legal side of the house, uh, that wanted it, as far as I\u2019m concerned.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, the legal house is down\u2013 voted down now, 93 members of our board, we voted it down. No more guardianships.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Yeah. It\u2019s a risk. It\u2019s a high risk, and I\u2013 I attempted in possibly\u2013 probably a very feeble way and a very ineffective way to point that out, but there was no listening to that.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, we\u2019re pollyannaish. Idealists are pollyannaish, you know\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>That\u2019s true<\/i>\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> We\u2013\u00a0we want to\u2013 we want to save the world, and uh, this has been good for us, if we can only get through without this young man be\u2013\u00a0his future being hampered, there\u2019s lot<\/i>\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>That\u2019s what I\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> \u2013lots that\u2019s been learned, uh, like what\u2013 there was some point you made that uh, well, it\u2019s slipped my mind, that I told the board, I said that was such a good point. (Pause) Well, anyway, it\u2019s uh\u2013 a lot<\/i> of things you said have uh, really uh, lodged in fertile ground, and we\u2019ve passed it on. Uh, and uh, there was a very good phrase you gave, uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>But none of this, none of this is ever in, in, in criticism, but what is meant is to build a foundation that we can<\/i> be most effective in a very humanitarian way, and that\u2019s all I\u2019m interested in (unintelligible word under Jones)\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, I\u2019d like you to suggest\u2013 it seems to me that we ought to have uh, maybe a uh, in a city area where we\u2019re not<\/i> so controversial, where you\u2019re not uh, the largest church, uh, twenty times larger than the average church here, uh, where you don\u2019t stick out like a, a sore thumb, where you don\u2019t have a mixed racial congregation, where uh, there is still a lot of latent racism from my ministerial friends, uh, and police officers alike, and John Dahl told me, there\u2019s a lot of (stumbles over words) provinciality, small towns do, sometimes, there is a parallel of small minds, and uh, we ought to do this, it seems to me, where we\u2019ve got 5000 members in San Francisco, and we would not even be observed and be welcomed. It seems to me that\u2019s where we need to build, maybe a private school where we could uh, build a\u2013 work<\/i> with these children and have the resource people right there on the facilities. Certainly in the big city, there\u2019s things they can get into<\/i>. But if these children have had a, a wealth of background in the ghetto<\/i>, they can not only get into trouble here, but they can invite others<\/i> into trouble. You know.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Um. You know, I cannot debate that.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> And so we\u2019re not bringing any more. Uh, the lawyers, uh, have lost on the guardianship. I\u2013 Oh I\u2013 I think one of the\u2013 what stuck with me, you said, \u201cWhat if this had been my<\/i> home? What if I had approved this home?\u201d And I says, see, and how\u2013\u00a0we ought to empathize, here, that this man\u2013 We\u2019ve approved this man\u2019s home, in a sense, though the guardianship was handed to him, we didn\u2019t do it as a church, he made his own arrangements, but we are being judged by this, there\u2019ll be people that\u2019ll judge us forever.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>That\u2019s the reality of it. That\u2019s the reality, yes. That\u2019s the difficult part.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> And he\u2013 he is one of the best human beings I know<\/i>. Now if he<\/i> could get uh, uh, overwhelmed, and spank a child, good\u2013 uh, goodness knows we\u2019ve got somebody else that could do it. So I made the flattest of orders, than anyone who used corporal punishment will be brought up for uh, question about their membership, because I\u2019ve gotten uh, a lot<\/i> of opinions now \u2013 we should have gotten them before \u2013\u00a0uh, some psychologists have told us that the right thing to do, you should spank<\/i> these, uh, Dr. Spock [baby doctor Benjamin Spock] was wrong, and you get all these different uh, wo\u2013 ki\u2013 countercurrents of thought. But uh, I\u2019ve found the general consensus is, that corporal punishment is not\u2013 that there\u2019s no place for it, really, in the development of a child.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Well, there\u2019s\u2013 I\u2019m sure there\u2019s more acceptable and just as efficient ways than showing uh, one\u2019s physical domination over a situation, and I uh, I do not condone it\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, good.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>\u2013and I think there\u2019s other areas in\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Good. Well, I\u2019m\u2013 I\u2019m glad I\u2013 Well, I took that firm position, and you\u2019ll not hear any more corporal punishment of any<\/i> type, you\u2019ll won\u2019t have to be bothered with our people, because when I make a real stern demand, it\u2019s usually, usually recognized, and I demanded it.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Okay. Jim, I want to uh, I want to get on that issue that uh, provoked your call, and if you don\u2019t mind\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> What can I do, to\u2013 to look into this other, the other departments to see where uh, uh, this case with Beam is, should I\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Can you contact with those? I have reasonable rapport with\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Well, see, my concern, it\u2019s been a week, and uh, nobody\u2019s given me any answers, um. I\u2019m trying<\/i> to be uh, not, you know, kind of a disinterested party which I uh, I am finding very difficult to be. (laughs) I\u2019m just trying to do my thing here on uh, on the child protective side, and not get involved<\/i> in anything else, but I\u2019m getting a little antsy about that.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, if they\u2013 if they\u2013 if they don\u2019t give some consideration to background that you\u2019re building up with this young man, which I can also help you in any way (unintelligible phrase under Denny)\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>I told\u2013 I think you will, uh, I, I think so\u2013 from some conversation that you would have from uh, Mr. Beam, one of the firm commitments that I made to him in the meeting that I had with (unintelligible word under Jones)\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> He said so. He said so.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>\u2013was the fact that we are not<\/i> going at this in a negative atmosphere. My staff hear that. And if they violate that, then they don\u2019t work<\/i> with me. But they\u2013\u00a0we are going at this in a positive<\/i> frame of reference, and that we are attempting to support that positive frame of reference, by character uh, uh, support<\/i> in the communities<\/i>, with many<\/i> contacts. It\u2019s not negative.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, I tell them\u2013 uh, on balance\u2013 yeah, on balance, from McWiggin, McWiggin talked very kindly<\/i> to Beam. I think I told you that, when I was critical of his posture before with the child, uh, uh, I\u2013 I\u2013 I think on balance, he has not been unkind to Beam, and Beam felt some at peace, and Carter felt at peace, and the doctor\u2019s report\u2013 they\u2013\u00a0the doctor, well, Art\u2019s uh, client attorney has contacted the doctor, and the doctor uh, is\u2013 dealt with a lot of abuse, and he\u2013 he minimized<\/i> this. So it would seem to me, that uh, if he<\/i> isn\u2019t uh\u2013 I don\u2019t know what would be holding up\u2013 Could it be just procrastination?<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I\u2019m quoting things out\u2013 I\u2019m really quoting the attorney, please don\u2019t quote me on that.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>It well\u2013 That might be procrastination, I don\u2019t know. I\u2013 That\u2019s what I\u2019m saying. I brought the subject up. I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, it\u2019s thoughtful of you to do so.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>I don\u2019t uh\u2013 and maybe it\u2019s unfair for me just not to come out and say what the hell to you know, I\u2013 I just say, I don\u2019t know anything. (Laughs) Uh, and that makes me uneasy. When I don\u2019t know something, I get a little antsy.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, I shall uh, I shall\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>That\u2019s means that I\u2019ve lost control<\/i> of a situation, I guess, and I just don\u2019t like being put in that posture. But, anyway, Jim\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> No, when you\u2019re in control, the community [is] better.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>\u2013if\u2013 I do want to get on that other matter and uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, is there anything that I can do to see that these people don\u2019t make that mistake, uh, they\u2019re making a great mistake, \u2018cause I\u2019ve been a very good supporter of this community, but if they do this to one of my people, I\u2019m going to pull in my shell.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Mmm.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I mean that. I\u2019m not\u2013 If they allow that to go through, and give him the axe, uh, that\u2019s a terrible charge<\/i> that he\u2019ll never live down. Now they don\u2019t realize how utterly loyal, (stumbles over words) if they were to fire you tomorrow, I\u2019d uh\u2013 I would do everything in my power to see that we didn\u2019t lose a man of your caliber. It\u2019d be the same if it were Duncan James, or it\u2019d be the same if it were John Dahl.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>I know\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> When I\u2013 When I see good people in this community\u2013 it\u2019s not<\/i> any great heroics on my part, it\u2019s enlightened self-interest. I want good people to remain where they are. But my loyalty extends not only to the church, it extends to people that I\u2019ve found decent in the community. And one day\u2013 I hope you never have to see it, but you\u2019ll find it\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>I have found\u2013 I\u2013 I have my uh, my whole frame of reference is to what you speak. Or you and I would not be talking as we do.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, you\u2019ll find that when\u2013 (unintelligible word under Denny)\u2013 You\u2019ll find a drawing power, one day, if you ever need it. I\u2019ve got\u2013 I\u2019m worth a lot, when it comes to strength and support, and I don\u2019t<\/i> understand those two\u2013 the other<\/i> two departments who really I guess you\u2019ve been saying (unintelligible word under Denny)\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Well, I\u2019m not\u2013 and I\u2019m surely not, uh\u2013 I don\u2019t know<\/i>. I\u2013 I don\u2019t know about the other two departments, I guess is what I\u2019m saying.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I see. Well\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>And uh, I\u2013 I surely do not uh, sit either pro or con (unintelligible word under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, I\u2019m not going to be quoting you, one way or the other.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>I don\u2019t know<\/i>\u2013 Yeah, but that\u2019s fine. I\u2013 I\u2013 You could, because I\u2013 I don\u2019t know what the stance is, and I uh, I\u2013 I just get uneasy when I don\u2019t know what<\/i> uh, what my heading is, you know, in a situation.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> All right, well, I uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>And I\u2019ve probably taken advantage of, of your insight, and maybe you had something, that I shouldn\u2019t have done that, I, I should have\u2013 (unintelligible word under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> All I know is a positive approach, and I know you won\u2019t quote that, unless he says it to you, from Duncan, that there was very little likelihood anything be done with it. Now, now, I don\u2019t know, uh, based on what he\u2019d heard of it, becau\u2013 I think he\u2013 he wo\u2013 uh, mention something, the belief that uh, an incorrigible, that if it was this type of background, he could un\u2013\u00a0he\u2019d have empathy, uh, in the matter, and there would not anything done about it, not that he was in any way supporting child abuse.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Well, then that\u2019s good, and if that\u2019s what he said, then that\u2019s good enough for me<\/i>. I\u2019ve had no question about Duncan\u2019s uh, ver\u2013 you know, his truthfulness and veracity\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I think for Duncan\u2019s sake\u2013 \u2018cause Duncan\u2019s a good friend of yours and in highest of praise for your department. I don\u2019t think we\u2013 I don\u2019t think we should lose Duncan. What I think the sheriff\u2013 if he puts that uh\u2013 Duncan\u2019s having a little bit of his own<\/i> static these days. What I really hate\u2013 I\u2019m just telling\u2013 talking to a friend now\u2013 uh, what I hate is if the sheriff department would not push that (unintelligible word) to Duncan, to have to uh, put a thumb down on it, it\u2019d be better that\u2013 because\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Yeah. Well, he should she\u2013 he should keep the heat off of Duncan\u2019s office. You\u2019re right. And he\u2019s had a little excessive uh, (unintelligible word under Jones) sweat in the last (unintelligible word under Jones)\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> That\u2019s what I feel. That\u2019s what I feel. That\u2019s what I feel.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Uh\u2013 You can\u2019t bring another one on, you know, you can\u2019t compound a man\u2019s uh, problems<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> That\u2019s what I feel.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Uh, but anyway, the both of the gentlemen, uh, and others uh, that we\u2019ve spoken tonight, you know, I happen to feel highly of, I just don\u2019t have an answer<\/i>, and I, uh, I get uneasy when I don\u2019t have answers.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, if you do get an answer, I would certainly uh, be eternally grateful if you\u2019d let me know.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>I will. I will commit that, that I will call you uh, within reasonable hours uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, you don\u2019t worry about my<\/i> reasonable hours, I will try to be more reasonable with your hours, but you call me anyway, unreasonable hour\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>No, I uh, I will uh, I will get that information to you uh, whichever way we go, if\u2013 if I have it\u2013 if it\u2019s\u2013 if it comes to me, and I know you do not have insight into the information, I will, uh, I will pass that on to you.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I just sort of took the word of Duncan, but I (unintelligible word) a great deal of empathy for Duncan\u2013 (unintelligible word under Denny)<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Well, that\u2019s good enough for me. If he gave you his word<\/i>, then that\u2019s good enough for me.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> But\u2013 uh, what I would like, is that, that the sheriff\u2019s<\/i> department would do their part in the matter, which I\u2019ve never asked any kind uh, of consideration from them, that they didn\u2019t put it on his table, uh, as you said, with this pressure that he got from the grand jury, which I never have quite\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Well, he\u2019s gotten it from a lot of (unintelligible word under Jones), yeah, there surely have been a\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Somebody\u2019s after him<\/i>, and I\u2019ve not quite been able to ascertain it. I hear rumors that one of the judges don\u2019t find him uh, too acceptable, but law<\/i> enforcement respect him highly<\/i>, uh, as far as I can gather. You, uh, you know the community currents as well as I do.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Well\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> It\u2019s\u2013 obviously somebody\u2019s out for an a\u2013 an axe to grind with Duncan, and I think it\u2019d be a tragedy if\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Well, I\u2019ll tell you, the best uh, the best man in that whole organization is Tim, to be very honest with you, and I wouldn\u2019t say it if I didn\u2019t mean it. That\u2019s the whole strength of that damn office.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Is that so?<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>There are some weaknesses<\/i> there, Jim, there are<\/i> some weaknesses, and I\u2019ve Duncan this, so I\u2019m not saying anything\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, I\u2019m not going to quote that\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>But I\u2013 I respect the man for a lot of other<\/i> things, but uh, the strength of that office is that, is that counsel (unintelligible word under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well\u2013 Well, I\u2019ll take your opinion. What\u2013 Whatever, if\u2013 if the man is coming up for election, I would hate for it to be something he had done in uh, reference to Peoples Temple that could be used, and I could just see a situation like, that uh\u2013 You can look down the road. So if the sheriff\u2019s department would do a\u2013 would only be reasonably fair, I\u2013 I can give them a lot of cases<\/i>, and believe me, I\u2019ve got a lot of cases to afford about that<\/i> department. Uh, I don\u2019t\u2013 I don\u2019t want to\u2013 I want\u2013\u00a0I want to be low profile, I\u2013 but if they attack one of my people, I will fight like an old hen.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> And I\u2019ll fight with what I have<\/i>. And I\u2019ve got some documented evidence about things there that isn\u2019t uh\u2013 I don\u2019t think would be the kind of uh, situation that should be aired. But I\u2019m not<\/i> going to allow him to go down, um, um, without\u2013 without a fight.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>I want to uh, I want to get on that other matter, Jim, and so I uh, I will handle that right\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Thank you. I\u2019ve talked too long. Forgive me for the long conver\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Oh, no, it\u2019s always my pleasure, and very (unintelligible word under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Don\u2019t hesitate to cut me off, it\u2019s perfectly all right. Take care now.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>This has, uh, great ramification, and uh, I hope I\u2019m applying uh, my skill and whatever I have (unintelligible word under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I\u2019ve found it thus far, and uh, if you\u2013 uh, I want you to know that I don\u2019t uh, require<\/i> uh, any kind of perfection. You\u2019ve done enough that I would make allowances for a great<\/i> deal in our relationship. You have a friend, and uh, uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>But that\u2019s uh\u2013 But that\u2019s what makes you great. (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, I hope so. Take care. (unintelligible word under Denny)<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>All right. I want to get on this, and I uh, I\u2019ll uh, try to, in the next time I talk with you, I probably won\u2019t bring it back specifically<\/i>, but I uh, I will<\/i> be able to report back to you when we talk in the future.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> All right. Thanks so much.<\/p>\n

Denny: <\/b>Goodbye.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Bye.<\/p>\n

End of tape<\/b><\/p>\n

Tape originally posted April 2002<\/b><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you. To return to the Tape Index, click here. To listen to MP3, click here. To read the Tape Summary, click here. (Note: This tape was one of the 53 tapes initially withheld from public disclosure.) Part […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":6,"featured_media":0,"parent":27291,"menu_order":458,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-27540","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27540","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/6"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=27540"}],"version-history":[{"count":7,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27540\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":59996,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27540\/revisions\/59996"}],"up":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27291"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=27540"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}