{"id":27546,"date":"2013-06-16T00:20:56","date_gmt":"2013-06-16T00:20:56","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/alternativejonestown.com\/?page_id=27546"},"modified":"2020-03-23T10:36:21","modified_gmt":"2020-03-23T17:36:21","slug":"q696","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=27546","title":{"rendered":"Q696 Transcript"},"content":{"rendered":"

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.<\/strong><\/i><\/p>\n

To return to the Tape Index, click here<\/a>. To listen to MP3, click here<\/a>.
\nTo read the Tape Summary, click here<\/a>.<\/p>\n

Part 1<\/strong><\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Well, what all have uh, people been asking you about Jim?<\/p>\n

(Two voices compete)<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> They won\u2019t\u2014 they\u2014 they won\u2019t talk to me much, \u2018cause they know I\u2014 I\u2019ll (mike move, unintelligible word) the phone, you know. I don\u2019t allow nobody talk to me about Pastor Jim.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> (Emphatic) No, sir.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Like you say, if they won\u2019t\u2014<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> If they want\u2014 If you want to know anything, you go talk to him<\/i>. Don\u2019t come picking it around me.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Well, I\u2019ve got nosy neighbors, that always are asking me stuff.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Well\u2014<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> How do you\u2014 Did you have in your neighborhood too?<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Well, uh, Mr. Case across the street there, uh, he said, do you know Father. And uh, I said yes. And uh, he uh, he been out uh, hinting around, you know, trying to get me to go out\u2014 Coughs). Do you mind if I set this down?<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> No, go ahead, honey, you\u2014 this is your room too.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> So, I said well, now listen. I\u2019m not like the squirrel that jump from limb to limb. Well, I don\u2019t jump from church to church. I said, I been following Pastor Jim for many, many a-year, and nobody changes my mind, until he say, “You get out, Elmira [Mara?], don\u2019t want to fool with you anymore.”<\/p>\n

Young woman: <\/b>Well, you know Father\u2019d never do that.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> You know he ain\u2019t gone do that.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> He couldn\u2019t do that\u2014<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Oh, you know he couldn\u2019t\u2014<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> No way.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> So\u2014 excuse me\u2014\u00a0let me, Connie, you know, he never said any more.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Wh\u2014 When did he ask you? Who\u2014<\/p>\n

(Two voices compete)<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> When I first come\u2014 moved here. They come over and they asked me.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Who\u2014 who is he? I don\u2019t even know him.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> No, he\u2019s uh\u2014 he\u2014\u00a0he used to live with uh, (unintelligible word) from Pastor Jim.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Maybe it was before I came to church.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Maybe so. And uh\u2014\u00a0I don\u2019t have\u2014 You know what I mean to say, I don\u2019t have no dealings with them, you know.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> What\u2019d he want to know? I mean, if he knew Jim, what would he want to know from you?<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> He\u2014 No, he didn\u2019t want to know nothing, he wanted to know what church was I going to?<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Ohh.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> He wanted me to come to that church<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Oh. So he goes to church now<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Uh-huh, he goes over\u2014 What\u2019s that church? (Pause) Oh, I think uh\u2014 that (unintelligible name), and uh, (unintelligible word: Willie?) Brown and Ashury, I think they all goes to that church with hi\u2014 with him.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> I don\u2019t know what\u2019s the name of it.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Birdie said that there were going to\u2014\u00a0that uh\u2014 (Pause) Mother Brown was going to some church, right? You know, I don\u2019t think she told me which one. But then, I don\u2019t know that much about churches to know\u2014<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Uh-huh.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> \u2014you know, I could have heard it and not remembered.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> So I didn\u2019t pay no attention. And they won\u2019t\u2014 they even talk to me, you know, \u2018cause they know I don\u2019t approve of everything\u2014<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Who, (unintelligible name: could be Avery) and\u2014<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> I don\u2019t\u2014<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> \u2014\u00a0or even Mr. Case.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Oh, no, they\u2014 they won\u2019t talk to me about Pastor Jim. None of them.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Huh\u2014 (unintelligible balance of answer, as two women talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Because, you know, I got a word for them.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> (Laughs) What\u2019s the word?<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Now\u2014\u00a0now, “That\u2019s none of your damn business,” is what I said. “If you want to know something, you go and ask him.”<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Why\u2019d they leave?<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> (Emphatic) I don\u2019t know. That\u2019s what I would like to know. Why? Why?<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Have they ever said anything?<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> They will not talk to me.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> You mean at all\u2014\u00a0about that or\u2014<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> No, honey. No, they won\u2019t\u2014 They even talk to me. When\u2014 (coughs, then laughs) When they say, Winnie [probably Winneann O\u2019Bryant, aka Zelline O\u2019Bryant], where you going, when did I start being to church, I said, Sister, (unintelligible phrase), I taking sick at church with my legs, you know, and everybody practically knows I\u2019m about there, and uh, so uh, “Oh, I see.” And I say, “Yeah. Going back just as quick as I can uh, get myself pulled together, just as quick as I can get better and the doctor turn me loose, to Jim Jones, I\u2019m going.” (Pause)<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> That isn\u2019t what they expected to hear\u2014<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> You see? They wanted me to say, “No, I ain\u2019t going.” Not for people like Etta [likely Etta Thompson], I got some of the funniest people in the world. Naya [phonetic], my mother (Pause) was a fine woman. (Pause) She just did not pull you (unintelligible word). Keep up a uproar, and being nasty and talking about the church from here to here, she just didn\u2019t like that. And she always telling me, she said, “When you get to one place, you stay<\/i> there.”<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> “Don\u2019t run from door to door.”<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Well, gee, I\u2019d run from door to door until<\/i> I found Jim.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Well\u2014<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Then I knew I was home.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Yes. See? Now when I\u2014 uh, when I found Pastor Jim, I was going to church over on uh, Mission. Reverend Green. (Pause) And I\u2019ll tell you right now, he was the nastiest man I most ever had met, he just had nasty ways, you know. And uh, Brother Bagwell used to be the past\u2014 the minister of that church. And I say, “No, Lord, I\u2019m not coming back here no more.” (Pause)<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Bet that surprised them.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Umm-hmm [Yes]. (Pause) And uh, he looked at you like sometime, like you had dirt<\/i> on you, you know, stuff like that. I said, “Well, I know, I am not gone come back over here to church no more.” So that Sunday, when I left, I told one of the members, I said, “Well, I won\u2019t be back anymore.” She says uh, “Well, uh, well, why, Mara?” I said, “Well, I\u2019m fixing to (unintelligible word).” No, honey, I haven\u2019t been back there in that church for about a year and a half, because I didn\u2019t like the way they done. (Pause) No quicker than they see you coming in, they go to writing notes.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> You mean, about you?<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> I don\u2019t know what they were doing, but they\u2014 when they see people come in, they go to writing notes and handing that to so-and-so. Uh, give that to so-and-so.<\/p>\n

(unintelligible exchange)<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Uh-huh.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Well, Father sure taught us<\/i> well, \u2018cause you know you can\u2019t talk about anybody behind their back.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> No talking.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> It\u2019s the only place in the world I know that you\u2019re fo\u2014\u00a0you know, you\u2019re safe<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Oh, well, yes. I don\u2019t care what they say (unintelligible phrase), I\u2019m not dirt. I\u2019m not gone forget Jim, I don\u2019t care what they say. I can\u2019t do it.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> He\u2019s done too much for us.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Oh, me?<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> And you\u2019ve shown too much character already, no matter what (unintelligible phrase)<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> You know what?<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> What.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Well, it was on a Saturday night, when all my girls come in, and uh, I was making dressing, I believe it was (unintelligible phrase) Christmas or Thanksgiving. And I was making dressing. And (unintelligible word) I say, “Cynthia,” I said, “I believe I\u2019ve got too much salt in here,” I say, “won\u2019t you taste it?” And she said, “Yes, Momma.” She said, “No, Mamma, it ain\u2019t got too much salt here.” So I was down here, little spoonful for her to taste it, I says back to myself, did you know I like (unintelligible phrase). Well, that<\/i> Sunday \u2014 let\u2019s see, that was on a Saturday night \u2014 that Sunday, when I went to church, Pastor Jim (unintelligible balance of sentence).<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Dad? Oh wow. He never told me about that.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Sure did.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Bet you felt like a new woman without the (unintelligible word)<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Ohh. You know what? And give that thing up? Woo. (unintelligible sentence)<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> But it taste just as bad as it did\u2014<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> But it did (unintelligible phrase) on the floor. That was down at uh, Sacramento, when I passed that cancer from the throat. Well, honey, you ought to me why I pass (unintelligible balance of sentence)<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Another one?<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> He got two<\/i>. He passed the one from me, uh, when I was back there second time, I went to church.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Wow.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Uh, it covered up the whole palm of your hand.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Ooo, what that must have been doing to your body<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Uh-huh. There it was, the ugliest<\/i> thing I had ever seen. (Pause) It had little\u2014<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Tentacles?<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> \u2014green stripes, you know, blood, you know, in it? Oh, I couldn\u2019t believe it, and you see, I didn\u2019t know then at that time, Marcie and the other girl were going to take it in (unintelligible word), and so I said, oh, no, no, no, no, don\u2019t show him that. (Laughs) I was so ashamed, I said, “No, no”\u2014<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Well, it was thoughtful, though.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Yes, I know, sugar. She said, yes, honey, we got to, this is our demon, we have to show it to\u2014\u00a0Oh, it was a terrible thing. You ought to know how that left my body, just left it so empty.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Hmm. And being under his love keeps us that way.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Oh, yes.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> And when we follow his teachings, the healthier we are.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Oh, so true. And uh, we don\u2019t know we\u2019re dying of cancer.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> (Voice low) \u2014So you really know what it\u2019s like.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Oh, yes.<\/p>\n

(Several exchanges too quiet)<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> So, I treated that, and I\u2019m going to have to (Pause) be (Pause) you know, ah, (Pause) to let my momma to stay here and suffer with cancers, you know.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Oh, yeah.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> (unintelligible phrase) (Laughs) This is something else I want to tell you. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> What?<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> (Pause) When I come up here, (Pause) I moved over on uh, Oak Street. (Pause) I had, let me see, one two three four five\u2014 I had five cats. (Pause) There\u2019s nobody liked them cats. He knew. (Pause) (unintelligible word)<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Why not? \u2018Cause uh, cats are fun.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Says uh, (Calls out) “When you gone git rid of them cats?”<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> This is your neighbors say that?<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Oh, neighbors. Yeah. They not in\u2014 in the teach\u2014 yeah\u2014<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> (Laughs) “Well, how many you got?” (Pause) Four\u2014 I got four or five. (Pause) My goodness. (Pause) “Well, I think they\u2019re gonna cause a lot of trouble around here.” I say, “Well, the way I look at (unintelligible word under cough) the other night, I don\u2019t mind (unintelligible words under coughs) or out there in the garage.” And I says uh, “I know they can\u2019t be mine, \u2018cause I let my cats out.” So, this old man\u2014<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Yeah. Caused trouble.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Caused trouble. (unintelligible word) And I just been thinking about that (unintelligible phrase). How can people be so mean sometimes? (unintelligible word)<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Do you want some more water, (unintelligible word)<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> No, darlin\u2019\u2014<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> \u2014\u2018cause I\u2019m gonna get some. I know (unintelligible phrase). Want some ice in it?<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> No, sweetie. (unintelligible sentence)<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> I guess I\u2019ve been coughing too much.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Uh-huh, that\u2019s it.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> (Sniffs)<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> You got to\u2014 What time do you go to work?<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Oh, I got another hour and a half.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Oh, you have?<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> My schedule\u2019s nice. Also, I can see people. Some (unintelligible word) don\u2019t like it. But, it\u2019s good this way, \u2018cause I can get out and do sh\u2014 you know.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Oh, sure, darlin\u2019\u2014<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> It has an advantage in that sense. (Pause) I just can\u2019t get over all those people leaving the church.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> I don\u2019t either. I don\u2019t either. I just don\u2019t know. That ain\u2019t nothing but the devil<\/i>. Do you hear me? That\u2019s the devil, honey. Now, uh, uh, what (unintelligible word) says, that is a lie, and you shouldn\u2019t say that, that there ain\u2019t no such a thing as the devil. I say, “Yes it is, it\u2019s the devil down here. To me, (unintelligible phrase), that ain\u2019t nothing but pure hell.” Now the (unintelligible word) police\u2014 Now why didn\u2019t they stay in?<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> I don\u2019t know. Why do you even talk<\/i> to any of them to know?<\/p>\n

(unintelligible exchanges, too soft)<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> And you were such a good friend and mother, and\u2014 Oh, Mira.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Um-umm, they wouldn\u2019t talk to me. You know why? (unintelligible phrase, too soft) Pastor Jim. Shh. What did Pastor Jim care about them?<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Well, he\u2019d care, because he loves<\/i> them. He cares about them, \u2018cause he doesn\u2019t turn anybody away.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Well, they better\u2014 They better try to get \u2018em on back over there, I\u2019m telling you, if they\u2019d know what I<\/i> know. They better get close to him (Pause) over when they might get back in the (unintelligible word). Shh. Pitiful. I think he\u2019s a saint.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> What did they s\u2014\u00a0What did\u2014 I wonder what they have to say about him.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> (Emphatic) They\u2014 I don\u2019t know. I can\u2019t get to the bottom of it, to save my life, \u2018cause they will not talk<\/i> to me. As she was to (unintelligible), about Birdie or Daddy.<\/p>\n

(Exchanges too soft)<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> You\u2019re probably one of the best friends they ever had.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Never mistreat them or wouldn\u2019t mistreat \u2018em.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Loyal\u2014<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> \u2014for nothing in the world. (unintelligible sentence). How are you uh\u2014 (Laughs) (unintelligible phrase) (Pause)<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Hmm. I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> I just don\u2019t know. I just don\u2019t know. (Pause) Does some funny things.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> People are just meaner (unintelligible word)<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> I don\u2019t understand it.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> (unintelligible sentence) What it is, and it makes us turn away from goodness and love. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Well. (Pause) (unintelligible sentence) You were to say\u2014<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Mmm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> (Pause) But uh, I know this<\/i> much. (Pause) He\u2019s mighty stupid<\/i> to uh, (Pause) turn away from someone that love you<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> That\u2019s what I mean. Why, you know\u2014<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> I\u2014 I\u2014 (Pause) I just don\u2019t know what to make of it. Now\u2014\u00a0now\u2014 do\u2014 One thing. Do you think I could uh, get Jack away from there?<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Away from where?<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> From this church? Don\u2019t you know he\u2019d die afore we leave from there?<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> With children, you know, (unintelligible phrase). Unless you come as a child\u2014 Children, no, they don\u2019t\u2014 they haven\u2019t learned all the games we<\/i> have.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> No, he ain\u2019t never gone leave from there.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Uhh-uhh.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Uh-uhh.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> No, I think if I tried to take my children away from the church, they\u2019d leave me<\/i>. I mean, I might be able to physically<\/i> stop them from going, but I would never be able to communicate with them again.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Uhh-uhh. No.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> They would just close me out (unintelligible under interruption)<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> It\u2019s the truth.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> And they would end up being so<\/i> hurt, because they\u2014\u00a0you know, they would know where goodness was and not be able to go there, and\u2014<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> It\u2019s pitiful.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> I couldn\u2019t do it (unintelligible word)<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> No, I know you<\/i> could not. I\u2014 Not that you wouldn\u2019t<\/i> do it.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Oh, Jesus, no. I\u2019m not made up like that. Umm-mmm [no], not at all. Umm-mmm. No\u2014 (unintelligible sentences). Umm\u2014 I was gonna having a\u2014\u00a0a good old time, for getting shades. You know, I just hate these windows. You know why. You have a hard time getting shades.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> To fit<\/i>?<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> To fit<\/i>. Now. I went down twice to get the shades for the windows. You know, I couldn\u2019t find nothing.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Where\u2019d you try?<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> I just looked in the plain stores, you know.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> You mean the kind you pull down, or venetian\u2014<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Just\u2014 no, just the ones you pull down.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Plain\u2014 Material that\u2019s around the windows.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Uhh-huh.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Yeah. Uh, Sprouse-Reitz might have some.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Well, how much are they?<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> I don\u2019t know really know. I haven\u2019t gone there in a long<\/i> time. But I know they cut \u2018em there. I seen \u2018em cut \u2018em, you know, like if your windows are different, you know, those\u2014\u00a0the wood pull things?<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Uh-huh.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> I could take you down. We could look.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Well, one of these evenings, I was waiting on Red Ball to send me this check<\/i> so I could get the shades\u2014 some, some shades up there, because I have no shades to fit the windows<\/i>, you know. And uh, I been just waiting, I said, no, they don\u2019t have it. Couldn\u2019t find any, or it wasn\u2019t wide enough, and uh, I had one big one (Pause) and\u2014 uh, it won\u2019t do, it just goes about halfway up the window. So I say, well, I\u2019ll measure up, and I\u2019ll see what I can do, maybe I can get something up. If they don\u2019t, maybe I have to take<\/i> two and put \u2018em together.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Uh-huh. Like that.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Yeah, \u2018cause if they\u2019re as wide as these, I don\u2019t think you could find one that<\/i> wide.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Oh, no, you\u2019re going to have to use the drapes for them.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Yeah. (unintelligible word) Well, we<\/i> got\u2014\u00a0we\u2019ve got one in our kitchen, you know, that one you can see from where you are.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Yes, that\u2019s what I was looking at.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> We\u2019ve got a shade that fits that, so I know they make<\/i> them.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> (Pause) Well, I\u2019m gonna see about this. (unintelligible, too soft)<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Yeah, \u2018cause\u2014 do you know how wide you want it?<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> No, they about the same size.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> As this\u2014 this one?<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Mmm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Yeah, we can measure \u2018em and go down and pick \u2018em up, and put them in the back of the station wagon. That way, they wouldn\u2019t get, you know, bent around or\u2014<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Sure. (unintelligible word) gone have to\u2014 gone have to get \u2018em, \u2018cause I don\u2019t like people see clean through the house.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Umm-hmm. Especially at night when they can see in and you can\u2019t see out. All these, you know, kids runnin\u2019 around the neighborhood.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Oh-ho, you shoulda saw that place. (Pause) (unintelligible sentence, too soft). Honey, the leaves were so big. And there\u2014 the man cut the yard\u2014<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Well, that\u2019s good.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Well, there in the back, it don\u2019t look like it.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Oh.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> So, there\u2019s another man coming, I think he\u2019ll be there Monday to rake this yard all up for me, in front and back. And you know that (unintelligible word) when you\u2019re coming up there?<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> I\u2019m gonna have that all dug up, and uh, put some flowers<\/i> in there, you know, and kind of make it look homely [homey]. There\u2019s something about that place. I don\u2019t know why.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> You don\u2019t feel moved in yet.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Hmm?<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> You don\u2019t seem moved in.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Uhh-uhh. I sure don\u2019t.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> It\u2019s a house, not a home?<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Just don\u2019t seem like a home yet. (unintelligible) (Pause) No, I just think about uh, um\u2014 when I lived over there on the corner of Oak. (Pause) And uh\u2014\u00a0we was gonna stay there.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> (unintelligible sentence)<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Why not?<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> \u2018Cause this old house won\u2019t pass inspection. It leaks in it, rains in it\u2014<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Oh, really?<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Yes. The basement runs full of (unintelligible word)<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> I didn\u2019t know you had that<\/i> to fight.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Uh-huh.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Oh\u2014<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> And I told him once, a hundred times to Martha, I told him a hundred times, (unintelligible phrase). (Pause) He never did fix it. Never fixed it. And you know what I paid him? Two hundred and twenty-five dollars.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> A month<\/i>?<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> A month. Yeah.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> And he didn\u2019t fix it?<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> No, no. (unintelligible word) stayed there one solid year. I paid him five hundred and fifty-five dollars to move in. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> That\u2019s a lot of money.<\/p>\n

(several unintelligible exchanges)<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> (unintelligible phrase) had to pay was what I have to pay for their rolling up the basement, so I couldn\u2019t have the kids. I paid them $54 on that, and I just know that they (unintelligible balance of sentence).<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> And they didn\u2019t give it to you?<\/p>\n

(unintelligible exchanges)<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Every time I hear something like that, I think, you know, like Jim\u2019s promise that we\u2019ll always have a roof.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Yes.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> And that he will take care of it.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> I was saying just\u2014 like this one I did, so worried and so upset, I know when I\u2014\u00a0my dog went away (Pause) and uh, I was so worried about it. And I went into that room, and I called up Jim\u2014 Pastor Jim, to send Ron home.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> And that\u2019s the dog?<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> That was the dog. So the next 45 minutes, Ron uh, Ron was laying out there on the cement, when he come up\u2014 fixin\u2019 to come into the house, he was so tired, his little feet down under there just was (unintelligible word). He didn\u2019t come so far. And he couldn\u2019t make it no<\/i> further. He just laid down there\u2014<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Oh.<\/p>\n

(unintelligible exchanges)<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Birdie\u2019s dog got away. So, (Laughs) I heard her say (unintelligible phrase), “If you don\u2019t get that dog back out of the home,” (unintelligible phrase). She said she went back in the room, and called upon Father. (unintelligible sentences) (unintelligible name of dog) had been gone for five days. (unintelligible sentence)<\/p>\n

(Pause of several moments; women leave room? Clock ticks)<\/p>\n

(unintelligible exchanges, could be during medical treatment)<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Oh, you got a lot of pressure in getting the well, and moving in the house and worrying about two boys.<\/p>\n

(unintelligible exchange)<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> (unintelligible word) done all the packing. Done all the packing to move up here from San Francisco. Get rid of the trucks.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> You got a whole lot of stuff, too.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Well, uh, half of it is over to Birdie\u2019s. She\u2019s using quite a bit of things. And uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> That\u2019s sweet of you.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Yes, \u2018cause\u2014<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Father always said you had a really nice\u2014 really nice spirit.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Yes, it\u2019s\u2014 you know\u2014<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> He knows inside, that sort of thing that we don\u2019t know that he knows.<\/p>\n

(unintelligible exchange) (Dog barks)<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Where\u2019s he go\u2014 He\u2019s mad about something.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Oh, they like to yap.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> But, my neighbors don\u2019t like \u2019em. So\u2014<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Oh, ain\u2019t that\u2014<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Hey (unintelligible names) Lucy. Babies. Hey baby. Hey. (Pause) It doesn\u2019t matter if their dogs bark\u2014<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Oh, that\u2019s the way it was with Ron.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> What?<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> They didn\u2019t want Ron to open his mouth.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> That\u2019s your baby.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Umm-hmm. (unintelligible sentence) Oh, Jesus.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> People are\u2014<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> People can be so cruel.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> They\u2019re so two-faced, too.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Ain\u2019t they, though.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Their dogs\u2019 barking never wakes them up.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Uh, huh, honey, but they sure don\u2019t want yours to. Uhh-uhh.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> \u2018Cause, you know, if you\u2014 if next door lived the mayor of the town<\/i>, they wouldn\u2019t mind either.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> No, no, no.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> How is our little boy doing in school \u2014 Harold \u2014\u00a0this year?<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Well\u2014<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> How\u2019s he like his teacher?<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> He\u2019s doing fine.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Good.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> (unintelligible word)\u2014 Where\u2019s he going? Right here?<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> No\u2014 (women talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Special school.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> He goes to uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Live Oak?<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> He goes to Live Oak.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Good.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> \u2018Cause he has a little handicap.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

(quick, unintelligible exchanges)<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> He\u2019s a sweet guy.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Yes.<\/p>\n

Elmira:<\/b> Umm-hmm. Very sweet. And um\u2014 (unintelligible sentence)<\/p>\n

End of side one<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Side two
\n<\/strong>
\nPart 2: Broadcast off air, TV talk show with Jim Jones
\n<\/strong><\/p>\n

Jim Dunbar:<\/b> With the news, stashing his pipe out of sight, is Bob Marsh. Good morning, Bob. (unintelligible remark about ashtray)<\/p>\n

(Tape edit)<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Um, wild-eyed, uh, uh, uh (Pause) I got to be very careful about this, otherwise I\u2019ll have to have him<\/i> back on the show. Uh\u2014 (laugh) instead of Reverend Lester Kinsolving, (unintelligible) he<\/i> said some awful things about the Reverend James Jones, and so Reverend James Jones is back<\/i> again this morning, with<\/i> some additions. One, uh, of which will look like a uh\u2014 one of whom\u2014 will look like a parrot? But don\u2019t be fooled. One will look like a dog, but don\u2019t let that kid<\/i> you. And uh, and a third will look like a chimpanzee, and that one would be me. Anyway, stand by for the Reverend James Jones of Peoples Temple, after we take a look at this first.<\/p>\n

(Tape edit) (Music)<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Wak, says Polly. Polly wants part of my arm, I\u2019m going to si\u2014 sit at a safe distance here from uh, the Reverend James Jones and friend. That is not the Reverend James Jones. He is the colorless<\/i> one, holding this very colorful uh, parrot, whose name is what?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> It\u2019s awroak.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Rook?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Awroak.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Awroak.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (unintelligible) another awroak. I happen to uh, be able to get them in our shelter, because he was quite a bad cusser, and he\u2019s pretty violent. (unintelligible sentence)<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> He\u2014 he had a\u2014\u00a0a salty uh\u2014<\/p>\n

(Two men talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Yeah. Could we bring some of those other people up there, uh, wh\u2014 while we\u2019ve got all the animals (unintelligible word). You\u2019re not going to take him<\/i> away, are you? Or are you?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> No, I\u2014 I have to take him away, in order to (unintelligible under Dunbar)<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Oh, I see.<\/p>\n

(unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Yeah, that\u2019ll be all right. Sure. If he doesn\u2019t poop, doesn\u2019t decide he wants to\u2014<\/p>\n

(Bird noises)<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> I beg your pardon. Let\u2019s hope we don\u2019t develop some sibling rivalry among the menagerie. We have uh\u2014 Look\u2014 Look what we have for you here, we have uh, in addition to Awroak, we have uh\u2014 who is this uh, person?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> This is Mr. Muggs<\/a>, uh, he uh, was going to be experimented on, we felt unnecessarily. So we uh\u2014 Whoop. So we thought we wanted to rescue him.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> There goes a week\u2019s work. Scattered about the studio\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> This little darling here happens to be just our memo of\u2014 he, he (unintelligible word) and play with him to any extent, and we love him because of that. He is the\u2014<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> But this is part of the uh, the uh, the animal population at your uh, at your shelter?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Part of the many, many\u2014 Most of them with us are ordinary little mutts and cats that have been abandoned, and we\u2014 we even im\u2014 immunize them and give them homes.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Yeah. Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I think (unintelligible phrase)<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Any resemblance between Mr. Muggs and a well-known (Pause) pastor, and not this one, I\u2014 I hasten to point out, named Lester Kinsolving, is coincidental.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Lester Kinsolving was on this program uh, I don\u2019t know, a couple of months ago, and as is his way, he said some things that we all regret about the Reverend James Jones of Peoples Temple, and uh, I wasn\u2019t kidding<\/i> when I held this mail up. This\u2014 this is part<\/i> of the mail, this is just\u2014 just a sample of the stuff we collected. Uh, let me just read a couple of these. You<\/i> probably know the kind of thing that your parishioners wrote. “As I was mostly, uh, I was most interested in the advertisement in the San Francisco Chronicle of Sunday, July 22nd, concerning Pastor Jim Jones, who was to appear on your program. On the date aforementioned, I failed to view<\/i> your program, until seven A.M., which was my understanding of uh, when Reverend Jones was to appear. Can you inform me when he will be on your program”\u2014 and a whole bunch of other ones. (Pause) Uh\u2014 similar notes, commenting about your\u2014 your last scheduled appearance, which I believe<\/i> got cancelled because of Watergate.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Right. (unintelligible word)<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Did it not?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes, I didn\u2019t think there was any issue about that.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Yeah. Well, at any rate, we just wanted to let your\u2014 let members of your congregation and anyone else<\/i> interested in the Reverend Jones\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, see, most of (unintelligible word) members would\u2014 would know\u2014 \u2018cause we\u2014 they\u2014 they (unintelligible word) our membership, you know, probably\u2014<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Yeah, my<\/i> stark reaction, is just uh\u2014 it\u2019s just unbelievable<\/i>. And that\u2019s really just a small sample of the mail, I just collected that for over a period of, I think, two days. So, yeah, you could\u2014 or\u2014\u00a0or maybe just a day. I\u2019ve forgotten. Just a day or so.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (unintelligible under Dunbar)<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Well, you do, you do. And you\u2019ve been in the news recently because of\u2014 uh, a most unfortunate um, fire<\/i> at\u2014 at the Temple here in San Francisco.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> This is where I would like to\u2014 I wish<\/i> I could get across to our critic, the necessity of watching his sources, because we couldn\u2019t even recognize in the article\u2014\u00a0the negative article from him, (unintelligible word under noise at recording end), I think more than a coincidence that the two churches that uh, the fire inspectors have now said undoubtedly were connected, those came under a blistering attack by this (unintelligible word). I think that\u2014 not to say\u2014 (stumbles over words)\u2014 in fact, it encourages me, fan up the flames of passion of a pyromaniac, uh, at least I think is a good (unintelligible word) look at it, and we\u2019ve had other suggestions, too. If I hadn\u2019t had uh, a deep feeling on Wednesday night, (unintelligible phrase) for our congregation of 700, it was just a kind of a feeling that hangs on to you, I just simply could not let them go, and I held them till two<\/i> o\u2019clock in the morning. Otherwise, forty young college students that would\u2019ve been in there, they said they couldn\u2019t<\/i> have possibly<\/i> survived\u2014<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> You had a premonition.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I had a feeling, deep feeling, yes, a premonition\u2014<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Of fire<\/i>, or just some vague\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (unintelligible under Dunbar) The thing about the paranormal with me, I didn\u2019t recognize it\u2014 I mentioned fire, but the congregation\u2014 (Unintelligible word under Dunbar)<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> \u2014remembered that you said fire\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> \u2014 said fire. But all I could feel was this eerie feeling and\u2014 I do<\/i> remember the remark that (unintelligible phrase) the people that, we\u2014 we must stay. We must stay.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> So when you say stay, stay where, sir?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> In our congregation in Redwood Valley.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Oh, I see (unintelligible under Jones interruption)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> We\u2019d normally be out about 10:30, and we stayed till two<\/i> something\u2014 (unintelligible under Dunbar)<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> I see\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Otherwise they\u2019d\u2019ve all been bedded down. He slipped in through the\u2014 the basement (unintelligible word), it\u2019d been easy to put the gasoline\u2014 or they<\/i> put gasoline up the stairwells, and\u2014 and three\u2014 three minutes, no one could have escaped.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> The fire department thinks it\u2014 or, has, has confirmed that it was<\/i> arson\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Arson, and they suggested that, at least to us, that these fires are connected with the Lutheran Order of Man, which also was blistered in the same\u2014<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> \u2014by a Kinsolving article, huh?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Yeah. You think there\u2019s some kook running around out there who is causing\u2014<\/p>\n

(Two men talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I think that there\u2019s (unintelligible word) partly encouraged at least by this type of thing. I can\u2019t say. Let\u2019s just\u2014\u00a0I\u2019m just not sure about that.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Yeah. Well, I was sorry to learn about the\u2014 the fire.<\/p>\n

(Men talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> It burned it down. It burned it almost\u2014<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Yeah. What do you suppose, um\u2014 (Pause) I think this mail and\u2014\u00a0and the response to uh, your last appearance, which as everybody I guess now knows was, was uh, obviated by, by Watergate. We were stuck\u2014 Not stuck, really, but you know what I\u2019m saying, Jim.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Mmm. Sure.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> We had no choice on Watergate. Uh, what do you think accounts for the\u2014 the uh\u2014 I don\u2019t want to use the word “fanatical,” because that\u2019s maybe overloading a little bit, but the uh, the devout loyal following that this sort of mail represents. One uh, one failure to appear and we, we get flooded by mail, wanting to know what we\u2019ve done and, or uh, or, or when will be your next press (unintelligible word as Jim interrupts)\u2014 What accounts for that, do you suppose?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> As I say, the, the parish very well knew<\/i> why I (unintelligible as voice trails)\u2014<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Yeah. Now, assuming\u2014 a lot\u2014\u00a0a lot of this came from people who were not members of the parish.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> But uh, I don\u2019t know uh, (clears throat) depending upon what type of criteria you\u2019re mentioning, maybe it\u2019s interest<\/i>, maybe it\u2019s curiosity<\/i>, uh, these people, I don\u2019t\u2014 our regular mail is from people\u2014<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Well, I\u2019ll be glad to turn this over to you. It\u2019s uh, it\u2019s all kind of the same, the same letter. I don\u2019t want to make it sound like it like a formula. Let me just\u2014 I\u2019ll just pick one out at random here. This comes from San Francisco. Uh\u2014 “You\u2014 your intent to have Doctor Jones on your uh, talk show this morning is uh, commendable, and I appreciate you\u2014 uh, you<\/i> for it. I had read in the uh, Sun-Reporter<\/i> newspaper that he would appear. I was tuned in at 7:15, only to discover Watergate was on,” and so forth and so on. Signed, Je\u2014 Jeffrey Resnick of San Francisco. And there\u2019re just dozens<\/i> and dozens of these letters. Well, listen, ah, a lot of people want to talk to you, and there\u2019s no point in, in me talking to you when we could be talking to them<\/i>, so let\u2019s punch up the phones and give them a chance. Caller, you\u2019re on the air with Doctor, or with the Reverend Jones. Go ahead, please.<\/p>\n

Caller 1:<\/b> Yes, uh, a lot of things (unintelligible word) about to be uh, you know, really rudely awakened, on Thursday, when a young child (unintelligible sentence). You know, when the hour passes. And uh, I would like to uh, ask this uh, person, what his feeling is when a person\u2019s died. Do we have any conscience, you know, when he tells the person that they will be healed, you know, and they aren\u2019t. You know, where\u2014 where\u2014 where does it\u2014\u00a0where does his conscience lie? Uh, I really would like to know.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> All right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> He makes a great mistake in putting everyone in the same category. First place, I don\u2019t tell anyone<\/i> that they are healed. I tell them to go and seek the (unintelligible word), the test of empirical evidence. We do not ever<\/i> in any way oppose medical science. We teach\u2014 (unintelligible under caller)<\/p>\n

Caller 1:<\/b> If they die, (unintelligible word) are they waiting for some evidence? Just like this child\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> We don\u2019t\u2014 we don\u2019t ask them to wait one minute. We don\u2019t ask them to wait one day. We tell them to go immediately to their doctor.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> How do you uh\u2014 I\u2019m glad the caller brought this up, \u2018cause I think lots of us are wondering about this. Uh\u2014 this was in Barstow, a youngster uh, suffering an insulin uh\u2014 needing insulin was um, through a faith healer\u2019s recommendation, was taken off insulin\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, that\u2019s fanaticism\u2014<\/p>\n

(Dunbar and Jones talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Complete\u2014 complete fanaticism\u2014<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> I would\u2014 I would agree. Would you disagree with that, caller?<\/p>\n

Caller 1:<\/b> Uh, I\u2014 I agree with (unintelligible word) take anyone in a real world going round. Medical science (unintelligible word). I mean, you know, if you don\u2019t believe in evolution and all, that\u2019s fine. But medical science has saved a lot of persons\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, indeed.<\/p>\n

Caller 1:<\/b> (unintelligible sentence) And this is, this is uh, one of the uh, the human tragedies, where two parents, supposedly suffering from the same, you know, temporary insanity, I hope, will\u2014 who\u2014 who allowed<\/i> their child to die<\/i>. I mean, this\u2014 this child had a right to life, and here you have two parents, both over 18, who allowed this child to die. That\u2019s\u2014 That is\u2014\u00a0That is the saddest thing I ever heard of.<\/p>\n

(All three talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> \u2014I feel that no parent should impose their religious opinion to this degree upon their child.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Let\u2019s keep this alive just one more moment. Sorry for that choice of words. Uh, we\u2019ll break here for a moment. I\u2019d like to talk more about faith-healing, as you understand it, and some of the, the resurrections or whatever they are that you, you have uh, you have performed. The Reverend Jim Jones is our guest, and we\u2019ll have some more today, as AM<\/i> rolls along right after a few announcements.<\/p>\n

(Editorial by station general manager on San Francisco police youth fishing program)<\/p>\n

(Music)<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> It\u2019s 25 minutes after seven, the Reverend Jim Jones is our guest. If you want to talk to him, give us a call. East Bay, you\u2019re next with the Reverend Jones. Go ahead, please. Hello! Caller!<\/p>\n

Caller 2:<\/b> Hello.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Yes, ma\u2019am. You\u2019re on the air.<\/p>\n

Caller 2:<\/b> Pastor Jim?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes.<\/p>\n

Caller 2:<\/b> I was in a meeting uh, run by a reverend who criticized you, said that you have practiced black magic along with several other groups. And another thing I heard him say, Kathryn Kuhlman, Oral Roberts, Mary Baker Eddy, (unintelligible word), the Methodist even, uh, Jean Dixon and Edgar Cayce, and you said they\u2019re all practicing the (unintelligible word) of modern black magic. (unintelligible short sentence). What is your connection with it?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I didn\u2019t hear that comment, but uh, it\u2019s ludicrous. Uh, I\u2014 I have\u2014 I take deference to that word “black,” too, uh, there\u2019s no magic in faith<\/i>, and we uh\u2014\u00a0we certainly have no interest whatsoever<\/i> in any kind of witchcraft or occultism in that<\/i> sense. I think he\u2014 However, on the last program was that we mentioned youth\u2019s interest in cults<\/i> and Satanism, and he blocked me along with some others, but I don\u2019t remember. His remarks from\u2014 about Mrs. Kuhlman and Mrs. Eddy, I think they\u2019re separate<\/i> from that particular package. Uh, I have no connection with any magic, uh\u2014 That\u2019s uh, that\u2019s all I can say on this\u2014 on this subject.<\/p>\n

Caller 2:<\/b> Well, I\u2014<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Well, what would you call\u2014 Let me ask both of you, caller and uh, Reverend Jones. What would you say uh, would be an ac\u2014\u00a0an accurate description of uh, an ability to resurrect the comatose<\/i>, the dead<\/i>, uh, or what\u2014 or whatever it is<\/i> that, you know, your faithful claim<\/i> for you? Isn\u2019t that magic? I would call it magic, or\u2014 or a mira\u2014 miraculous\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes, in a sense, I suppose. We\u2014 We\u2019re very uh, humble about this, we say that the uh, the vital signs are not apparent to the medical people that have been at hand. Doctors or the nurses.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> But of course, we don\u2019t have an encectogram, we\u2014 we don\u2019t have any way to take a brain wave test. There have been unusual<\/i> phenomena reported to us through faith, using uh, on one occasion, a (unintelligible word) picture, where he was waiting for the ambulance to come to get her daughter. And we checked that out<\/i>, and it seemed quite accurate. But um, I don\u2019t think this is as unusual a term to be a science today, and we find that, (unintelligible sentences). And uh, the healing of wounds, I think, has stopped at Carol Nash [phonetic], a woman biologist that mentions how rats and rodents have responded to the\u2014 to healing touches, in a disproportionate sense that we show (unintelligible word) love force or magnetic force that goes from the hand. Uh, I think it\u2019s just an extra dimension of science<\/i>, the paranormal\u2014<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Do you think you\u2019re psychic?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> No.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Do you think you have a psychic power (unintelligible under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (unintelligible under Dunbar) \u2014been proven that I have had awareness<\/i> of things that are going to happen.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> I guess<\/i> this premonition would be an example of that. Caller, how do you feel about this?<\/p>\n

Caller 2:<\/b> Well, now, I don\u2019t\u2014 I don\u2019t believe (unintelligible phrase) mentioned to Pastor Jones the connection to black magic, because my uh, mother-in-law\u2019s sister<\/i> has five cataracts, and she wrote to (unintelligible phrase), and uh, when she came back, uh, they were gone<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> They were\u2014 They were gone?<\/p>\n

Caller 2:<\/b> Uh-huh. Uh-huh. They were gone.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Well, what do you call that?<\/p>\n

Caller 2:<\/b> Well, I don\u2019t know. Ask Pastor Jones, I\u2014<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Well, I want to ask you. I mean\u2014 You know\u2014 We\u2019ve just heard from the pastor Jones. What do you<\/i> call it?<\/p>\n

Caller 2:<\/b> Well, I\u2014\u00a0I think it\u2019s wonderful. I\u2014<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Well, I do too<\/i>, but uh, is it not miraculous? Is that not magic?<\/p>\n

Caller 2:<\/b> (unintelligible) I\u2014 I don\u2019t know, magic. I think “miraculous” is uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> I\u2019d<\/i> call it a miracle.<\/p>\n

Caller 2:<\/b> Yes, indeed, I do<\/i> believe it\u2019s a miracle.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> If it indeed occurred. And I\u2019m not disputing it, I just wasn\u2019t there, so I can\u2019t affirm that it occurred. I just have to take your word for it.<\/p>\n

Caller 2:<\/b> The man used his powers for the (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Sure. Okay, thanks very much. San Francisco, you\u2019re next with the Reverend Jones. Go ahead, please.<\/p>\n

Caller 3:<\/b> Hello, Mr. Dunbar.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Yes.<\/p>\n

Caller 3:<\/b> Uh, I\u2019m calling in as a member of Peoples Temple, I\u2019ve been a member for four years now\u2014<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Caller 3:<\/b> And I want you (unintelligible phrase)<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Caller 3:<\/b> I\u2019d just like to share some of my experiences with you that I\u2019ve had since I\u2019ve become a member of the church.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Caller 3:<\/b> Uh, I uh\u2014 I was an atheist when I first came to church. I was attracted by the human service ministry that I saw. But when I went<\/i> to the healing services, the many miracles that happened at each service changed my opinion. In fact, I myself<\/i> was healed by Pastor Jones.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Of what? What were you healed of?<\/p>\n

Caller 3:<\/b> Well. I had suffered with constant kidney infection since I was a child. And my mother had taken me to so many specialists that I was losing faith in, in medical science.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> How did the Reverend Jones uh, cure you? What did he do?<\/p>\n

Caller 3:<\/b> Well, the very first healing service that I went to, uh, Pastor Jones called me out through the gift of revelation, and he told me facts and events that happened in my life that I had not mentioned to anyone<\/i> in the room, and (unintelligible word) and thoughts that I had that I never even verbalized to anyone.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Yeah, well, that didn\u2019t\u2014 That didn\u2019t cure your kidneys, did it?<\/p>\n

Caller 3:<\/b> Well, then\u2014 this was\u2014 this built my faith<\/i>, and I realized that the\u2014 God was working so tremendously through<\/i> Pastor Jones. And uh, then, Pastor Jones spoke the word of healing to me, and I felt that relief<\/i> in my body, and I have never had um, trouble with my kidneys since then, and I\u2014<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> You had a certified kidney complaint? I mean, this was something doctors could\u2014 could verify?<\/p>\n

Caller 3:<\/b> So I did\u2014<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> This wasn\u2019t just stuff in your head there, it was a\u2014<\/p>\n

Caller 3:<\/b> No, when I was a\u2014 a young child, it was something (unintelligible phrase)\u2014<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> And you\u2019ve had no problems since.<\/p>\n

Caller 3:<\/b> No. None since.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> I\u2019d call it a miracle.<\/p>\n

Caller 3:<\/b> I surely would too. And (unintelligible word) to me, I remember an older woman from Los Angeles, Roxanne White, came to (unintelligible word) his service, and she had been in a wheelchair for five years with arthritis. And Pastor Jones called her out though the spirit of revelation, and uh, within seconds<\/i>, she had got up out of her wheelchair, running around the auditorium, jumping and praising Mr.\u2014<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> You know, we\u2019ve seen so many\u2014 Now, I\u2019m not talking about the Reverend Jones here, and I hope you understand this, and I hope the caller understands it too, and I hope our viewers do, too. We\u2019ve seen so<\/i> many examples of fraud and trickery and deceit. Uh, they call that kind of thing uh, ringing in the\u2014\u00a0well, that\u2014 that\u2019s what they call a ringer. You know, I mean, there\u2019re a lot of ways I could explain that. In fact, I could perform that too. Ike (unintelligible name) and I could do that right now, could we, Ike, if we put Ike in a wheelchair, and he claimed to have been crippled for the last 12 years, and then suddenly when I lay my hand, up he jumps and runs around, and there might be a lot of folks suffering who would take that to be some sort of a sign<\/i>. And it would be nothing more than just a\u2014 just a\u2014\u00a0a trick<\/i>. How do you\u2014\u00a0how do you know it wasn\u2019t a trick?<\/p>\n

Caller 3:<\/b> Well, I was close to the woman. I saw the tears in her eyes, I saw the look of joy on her face.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> You can\u2014 You can give the address.<\/p>\n

(Jones and caller talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Caller 3:<\/b> \u2014the spirit, it was so strong, that if you had been there to witness it, as I have many<\/i> times, you\u2019d know that this\u2014<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Well, you certainly know that the\u2014 the relief<\/i> you felt in your\u2014\u00a0in your kidneys, in your system was not a trick.<\/p>\n

Caller 3:<\/b> That I do know.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Right. Okay. Thank you, ma\u2019am.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (unintelligible under Dunbar) \u2014remember that case, and I hope we mentioned it the last time. I said, whatever may have p\u2014 out there, I wouldn\u2019t, you know, be so speculative to say what condition may have put her there.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Sure.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> But she is\u2014 she\u2019s a person we can easily give you for documentation\u2014<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> This is the lady with the arthritis.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes. She was there five<\/i> long years, and something inspired her in that service.<\/p>\n

(Jones and Dunbar talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> \u2014services for five years?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> No, no. She had been coming for some time<\/i>, though, in a wheelchair, but she\u2019d been five long years in a wheelchair, and this is a matter that we did document. So we have\u2014 I know who she\u2019s speaking of, I can give you uh, information (unintelligible word under Dunbar)<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> I\u2019m asking the question, Reverend Jones, only because uh, skepticism is uh, is kind of a healthy condition.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I think so. I think so.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> And uh, in the past, we have been uh, we\u2019ve exercised a healthy skepticism with respect to other psychic occurrences on this program. Uri Geller is an example. And lots of us have come away puzzled, confused<\/i>, about what we saw. Not quite so skeptical as before. And if it\u2019s possible<\/i> with Uri Geller, if he can indeed bend a nail by touching\u2014 by laying on hands, maybe you can cure a kidney problem by laying on hands, too, or ministering to the needs\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (unintelligible under Dunbar) \u2014I\u2019m convinced that faith can heal.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Well, I\u2019m not in a position to dispute it so stoutly as I used to. The Reverend James Jones is our guest, and we\u2019ll have some more as AM<\/i> rolls along, right after this.<\/p>\n

Tape edit. Music.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Uh, what\u2014 what\u2019ve we got up next. Okay, here\u2019s Peninsula. You\u2019re next, Peninsula. Go ahead please. Caller?<\/p>\n

Caller 4:<\/b> Hello.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Hello, you\u2019re on the air, ma\u2019am, go ahead.<\/p>\n

Caller 4:<\/b> (unintelligible question)<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Yeah, go ahead.<\/p>\n

Caller 4:<\/b> I\u2019d like to know, uh, (unintelligible question)<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Let me ask you a question before we ask the Reverend Jones to comment on that. Are you a member of the Peoples Temple?<\/p>\n

Caller 4:<\/b> Hmm?<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> (Louder) Are you a member of the Peoples Temple?<\/p>\n

Caller 4:<\/b> I am not.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Have you ever heard him speak on uh, combating totalitarianism?<\/p>\n

Caller 4:<\/b> Well, I\u2014 I\u2019ve read the article, and it\u2019s\u2014 you know, there\u2019s some\u2014<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Yeah. Well, listen, I\u2014 what I\u2019m getting at is, we\u2019ve got 12 lines in here (unintelligible preposition) Reverend Jones, and every one of them is from people who are uh, I\u2014 I think confirmed in their belief<\/i>. Uh, what we would like<\/i> to get is some folks who want to ask some honest questions. I think you already know the answer, don\u2019t you, caller?<\/p>\n

Caller 4:<\/b> Pardon?<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> You already know the answer to the question you\u2019ve asked.<\/p>\n

Caller 4:<\/b> I\u2019ve never heard him speak.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Oh, you haven\u2019t.<\/p>\n

Caller 4:<\/b> \u2014read the article\u2014<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> I see.<\/p>\n

Caller 4:<\/b> Yes, and I (unintelligible balance of sentence)<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Okay. Well, I\u2019ll tell you. We\u2019ll give you your answer on the air. And thanks for the call. Well, how do we combat totalitarianism?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(unintelligible)\u2014 hear?<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> How do we combat totalitarianism? Fascism. Communism. \u2018Cause she said she has read some of your comments on that.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>(Pause) How do we combat it?<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Yeah. Apparently you\u2019ve spoken out on this, or\u2014 (unintelligible under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, I\u2014 I\u2019m concerned<\/i> about totalitarianism, and I feel that if the church does its part in taking care of, of the necessities of its people, as the Scripture acknowledges, take care of the household of faith, I suppose we would be able to bring about the Jeffersonian dream, of the government that governs least, governs best. I\u2014 I don\u2019t know. I have no real (unintelligible under Dunbar)<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Is political orientation part of your uh, your daily ministry? Do you\u2014 do you feel the need to comment on politics?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, we\u2019re concerned about the basic freedoms, basic freedoms, not partisan politics, no.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Oh, we were concerned very much about the role of the free press recently, and of civil rights in general.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Sure. Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>But uh, as far being as being a panacea, again, we don\u2019t\u2014 we just feel that the church will do less edifice building and\u2014 and do some of the things that we are doing and others aren\u2019t doing. This\u2014\u00a0their own senior citizen homes, their own convalescent homes, early children\u2019s homes, take care of the animals, and this type of thing that we\u2019re doing, provide\u2014 as we do 109 youngsters in pursuit of education directly from our parish. Five are studying to be doctors. That shows the respect\u2014<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> How many members in the parish now, do you\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>10,000.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> 10,000<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Over 10,000.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Is that\u2014 that confined mostly to California, or is that nation\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>California.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> In California<\/i>? How do you\u2014 Well, that church up there in Ukiah<\/i> isn\u2019t big enough to house (unintelligible under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Well, you\u2019re talking about\u2014 you\u2019re talking about in Los Angeles, San Francisco, and<\/i> the Redwood Valley church.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Yeah. Yeah. I see. You must have huge ser\u2014 How many services do you have<\/i> on a Sunday?<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Oh, it\u2019s\u2014 Each week, I minister in Los Angeles, San Francisco and Redwood Valley. So it\u2019s a job.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Umm-hmm. Yeah, I bet.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>And my voice is showing a little bit of it today. Fact is uh, one of my doctors think it\u2019s very miraculous that my voice continues. I use it about 12 hours a day.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> You do<\/i> see a doctor once in a while.<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>Oh, I believe\u2014 (unintelligible under Dunbar)<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Yeah, I\u2019m not\u2014 I know I seem very skeptical, even asking that question that way. You do.<\/p>\n

(Men talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> \u2014put a hand on your neck\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/b>I\u2019m probably a poor doctor\u2019s patient<\/i>. I don\u2019t go as I ought<\/i> to, but I do recommend it strong, and uh, the\u2014\u00a0the fact that my voice\u2014 as much as I use it, 12 hours of public<\/i> speaking, is miraculous that it continues, so\u2014 And I don\u2019t have any treatment for that. That\u2019s something I\u2019ve had to learn.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Sure. Yeah. Okay, let\u2019s take our next caller. East Bay, you\u2019re next with the Reverend Jones. Go ahead, please.<\/p>\n

Caller 5:<\/b> Hello.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Good morning.<\/p>\n

Caller 5:<\/b> Um\u2014 I\u2019d like to ask the reverend, I heard you a couple of months ago that he\u2019s in favor of abortion. And that really surprised me, because I mean, I\u2019ve heard a lot of really nice things about the church.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> That he was in what? I didn\u2019t hear that.<\/p>\n

Caller 5:<\/b> I\u2019m sorry. He was in favor of abortion.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Oh, in favor of abortion.<\/p>\n

Caller 5:<\/b> Yes, and uh, I have a\u2014 a lot of respect for (unintelligible phrase) Washington D.C., and he sent me an article about his church in Washington, D.C., and how they were cleaning up the Capitol and stuff, and as I said, (unintelligible word), really fine thing about it, I just couldn\u2019t understand his point of view.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Caller 5:<\/b> And I wish he would elaborate\u2014<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Well, all right, how about it?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I\u2014 I do not<\/i> take this stand, what\u2019d she say, against\u2014 (unintelligible under Dunbar)<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> And in favor\u2014 in favor of abortion.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I\u2014 She said I took a stand in favor of abortion.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> \u2014in favor of abortion. She\u2019d heard. She said.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, I take a stand that a body\u2014 that a woman\u2019s body is certainly is a part of her. I\u2019m not ironclad in the uh, position, I\u2019m\u2014\u00a0I\u2019m concerned<\/i> that, with any form of uh, human uh, murder, uh, I mean, when we start on the fetus, I\u2019m wondering where we will go next. Uh, I think there\u2019s a permissiveness about it that frightens me terribly. But I don\u2019t\u2014\u00a0I have not championed any view either\u2014\u00a0either one way or the other.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Umm-hmm. Well, that doesn\u2019t sound like a pro statement to me<\/i>, caller. I\u2014 I\u2019ll give you a pro statement, if you want to hear one, so you can compare it.<\/p>\n

Caller 5:<\/b> No, no, I think\u2014 I guess I (unintelligible phrase) misrepresented, \u2018cause I\u2014<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Well, maybe. Well, you\u2019ve heard it from the man himself.<\/p>\n

Caller 5:<\/b> I beg your pardon.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> I say, you\u2019ve heard it from the man himself. Any questions further?<\/p>\n

Caller 5:<\/b> No, (unintelligible statement)<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> We just did!<\/p>\n

Caller 5:<\/b> I just spoke that I have not taken that kind of position.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Are you a member of Peoples Temple?<\/p>\n

Caller 5:<\/b> No.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> All right. Are you thinking about it?<\/p>\n

Caller 5:<\/b> Oh, no, I feel gloomy. I feel\u2014 I think it sounds really interesting.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Umm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. Thanks very much. What about\u2014 Let\u2019s\u2014 Let me just ask you this, uh, the snake people down South someplace who\u2019ve been passing rattlers among the faithful as a test<\/i> of faith, you know, test by the fire, and all that sort of business. And as a consequence<\/i>, you know, the little fellow who died because his parents took his insulin<\/i> away. Well, there\u2019ve been some people die because they\u2019ve been bitten by rattlesnakes<\/i>. Now, it seems to me there\u2019s a great danger that uh, (sighs) I hate to use the word “fanatic,” but I think some of the fanatics, I guess, have\u2014 feel that the only way to affirm\u2014 it\u2019s not enough to just affirm it, affirm my faith in whatever, I have to hold a rattlesnake, to prove that I\u2014 I really can pass that test, and people die<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (unintelligible under Dunbar) \u2014sincere\u2014<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Well, I\u2019m\u2014 Yeah, I guess that you\u2019d have<\/i> to be sincere to hold a rattlesnake. But how do you<\/i> feel about that? Aren\u2019t you concerned that\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I think that\u2014 I think anytime you take a (unintelligible word) position on matters like this, you\u2019re going to end up with this type of fanaticism. And I don\u2019t\u2014 And I think biblical evidence does not support it. Because all good things come from God. Now that would include medical science. All<\/i> things that are positive and good, empirically proven<\/i>. Now uh, snakes\u2014 I\u2014 I think they distort the Scripture in Mark, about handling of snakes, uh, (unintelligible phrase). Whether that be to the response, the church does not involve itself in the (unintelligible word) of healing, it\u2019s only one small portion of our work, really. There\u2019s more<\/i> involved in human service than there are in spiritual healing. But the responsible<\/i> church does<\/i> not. It\u2019s going to be then left open to all these who uh, have sincerely fanatical ideas that end up in a tragedy like this, where people [were] waiting on a little boy to be resurrected in four days. And what pattern they\u2014 And why they picked four days, I don\u2019t know. (unintelligible sentence)<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Yeah. Well, you see, Lester Kinsolving\u2014\u00a0not to defend Lester here, Lester\u2019s long gone. And I must say, in lots of ways, I\u2019m relieved. (Laughs) But to defend\u2014 Not to defend Lester, but to uh, to account for his\u2014 I think his antagonism<\/i>, Lester feels the same thing and puts you in the same group with the\u2014 the saint people.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, he didn\u2019t come when he was there, visiting us.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Yeah. Well\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> So I don\u2019t know\u2014<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> I think that\u2019s the implication of what he\u2019s saying, you know, I\u2019m not trying to put words in his mouth, or\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Just show us another (unintelligible word) program that has, uh, free legal services for the poor. Housing for its people, guarantee to its people that they will never be left lonely in their golden years. Senior citizen homes, college dormitories, this kind of thing. I don\u2019t know of any group that involves itself in the mystical\u2014\u00a0or so much that it does what we are doing.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Let me ask\u2014\u00a0Let me ask about um, something that always comes up, so let\u2019s ask about it. These folks who receive free housing. Do they give up anything in exchange for that? For example, do they give up\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Uh, not at all. Not at all. Not required\u2014<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> No, not required, but do they voluntarily\u2014<\/p>\n

(Two talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> No. We have not had any property turned over to our church (unintelligible under Dunbar), generously, uh, but there\u2019s no arbitrary rule about that. The fact that last month, we have saved<\/i> three of our members\u2019 homes. We\u2019ve saved a lot<\/i> of people\u2019s homes, by paying back payments, (unintelligible word) people who were disadvantaged economically, and uh, I can recall that this point that no property being transferred to us.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> I\u2014 I\u2014\u00a0I say that, \u2018cause I know of one<\/i> congregation\u2014 not yours, but it\u2019s up, uh, it\u2019s up your way\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes, I know.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> And uh, part of the arrangement<\/i> is, in order to uh, to uh, receive certain types of benefits, is the members of the congregation turn out over all<\/i> of their worldly goods, all their real property, to the uh, church, and it\u2019s incorporated, it receives a\u2014 a blanket\u2014 Apparently if it receives a blanket uh, tax exemption as a consequence, the church doesn\u2019t real\u2014\u00a0realize<\/i> that this property, and then, then allows you and me to live in the house that we formerly had title to, and I would turn the title over to\u2014 they\u2014 they now hold the deed and so on. And it\u2019s kind of a tax dodge, it\u2019s not\u2014\u00a0again, I\u2019m not talking about the Reverend Jones. It\u2019s kind of a tax dodge, it provides the church with what it needs, uh, real estate and uh, and it increases its net worth\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (unintelligible under Dunbar) \u2014clear on this point? I would be happy to see all<\/i> churches would lose any<\/i> kind of tax privileges and ministerial privileges to avoid war. Then I think the church is consciously returning, and uh, it would be\u2014 it would do a great<\/i> deal for uh\u2014\u00a0to boost the uh, the life and the spirit of the church.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Let me uh\u2014 Let me turn this over to you. You\u2019d be interested I think in some of this mail. We\u2019ve saved\u2014\u00a0That\u2019s just a portion of it\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Thank you.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> All right, I\u2019ll uh\u2014 any\u2014\u00a0any more mail that we get, I\u2019ll pass along to you. Good to have to you here.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> It\u2019s a pleasure.<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Sorry about Lester.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, I hope we won\u2019t have to be (unintelligible under Dunbar)\u2014<\/p>\n

Dunbar:<\/b> Well, he\u2019s in Washington, so I don\u2019t think we have that to worry about.<\/p>\n

End of tape<\/strong><\/p>\n

Tape originally posted February 2003<\/b><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you. To return to the Tape Index, click here. To listen to MP3, click here. To read the Tape Summary, click here. Part 1 Young woman: Well, what all have uh, people been asking you about Jim? […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":6,"featured_media":0,"parent":27291,"menu_order":466,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-27546","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27546","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/6"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=27546"}],"version-history":[{"count":7,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27546\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":96732,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27546\/revisions\/96732"}],"up":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27291"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=27546"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}