{"id":27553,"date":"2013-06-16T00:20:58","date_gmt":"2013-06-16T00:20:58","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/alternativejonestown.com\/?page_id=27553"},"modified":"2014-04-05T23:55:33","modified_gmt":"2014-04-05T23:55:33","slug":"q710","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=27553","title":{"rendered":"Q710 Transcript"},"content":{"rendered":"

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee, III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.<\/strong><\/i><\/p>\n

To return to the Tape Index, click here<\/a>. To listen to MP3, click here<\/a>.
\nTo read the Tape Summary, click here<\/a>.<\/p>\n

(Note<\/strong>: This tape was one of the 53 tapes initially withheld from public disclosure.)<\/em><\/p>\n

Part 1:<\/strong><\/p>\n

Phone rings.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I don\u2019t know\u2014<\/p>\n

Phone picked up.<\/p>\n

Receptionist:<\/b> Department of Social Services, may we help you?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes, uh, is Mr. Denny in, please?<\/p>\n

Receptionist:<\/b> Mmm, one moment please. May I ask who\u2019s calling?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes, Reverend Jones, thank you.<\/p>\n

Receptionist:<\/b> Reverend Jones?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes.<\/p>\n

Receptionist:<\/b> Thank you. One moment, please. (15 second pause) One moment, please, sir.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Thank you.<\/p>\n

(15 second pause) (Call transferred)<\/p>\n

Secretary:<\/b> Mr. Denny\u2019s office. May I help you?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Is Mr. Denny in?<\/p>\n

Secretary:<\/b> He\u2019s in a meeting right now, sir. Can I take a message for him?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Oh. I uh\u2014 No, I don\u2019t want\u2014 (stumbles over words) If he has a\u2014 a moment that he can ring Reverend Jones, at uh, 485-8893.<\/p>\n

Secretary:<\/b> 8893?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Mmm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Secretary:<\/b> And this is\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> It\u2019s an unlisted number, too, it\u2019s a easier number to get through.<\/p>\n

Secretary:<\/b> Okay. Hold on, please.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Thank you.<\/p>\n

Secretary:<\/b> Um\u2014 that\u2019s 8893. And this is regards to what, Mr.\u2014 Reverend Jones?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Oh well, I think he would uh, be familiar, and uh, it\u2019s no\u2014 nothing urgent about it.<\/p>\n

Secretary:<\/b> Okay. I will tell him, sir.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Thank you.<\/p>\n

Secretary:<\/b> Thank you.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Mmm-hmm.<\/p>\n

(Disconnect)<\/p>\n

Part 2:<\/strong><\/p>\n

(Phone picked up)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Hello?<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> Hello, Jim?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes, excuse me, I\u2019m somewhat winded from running (unintelligible under interruption)<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> Oh, I\u2019m sorry. I\u2014 I hope I haven\u2019t interrupted you or this is your dinner hour, I\u2019m sorry\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> No, no, I was uh, just reviewing some instruction work.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> Oh, okay.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> And I\u2019m not as young as I used to be.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> Ah, I think both of us can be placed in that same category.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I wanted to say that I was very sorry that our uh\u2014 My word uh, had been\u2014 which I\u2019ve been given very, very clearly<\/i> to our parishioners, that if they were to have any<\/i> involvement, not only with Mrs. [Birdie] Marable, but any<\/i> care home, or welfare facility, they were to get in touch with the authorities immediately<\/i>. But they concluded that that meant police only, which I think\u2014 \u2018course if they\u2019re dealing with someone who seems to be of her (Pause) questionable stability, at least I think I\u2019m being kind to say that, um\u2014 I\u2019m being at least fair. Um\u2014\u00a0they\u2014 they should have had the police, but I meant<\/i> first and foremost that they contact you, even though Mrs. [Marceline] LeTourneau wasn\u2019t<\/i> uh, on welfare, I can\u2014 I\u2019m very, very much aware with your jurisdiction, but I hope you can appreciate that uh, with several thousand people, it\u2019s a little difficult to fully communicate, but the communications have now been established very clearly.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> Well, Jim, I have\u2014\u00a0I have no problem, uh, the only\u2014 If I have a problem, uh, or a concern, it\u2019s the fact that you and I don\u2019t see each other often enough\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> \u2014and it seems that it\u2019s only when we have concerns that we uh, that we get to have discussions. Other than that, that\u2019s probably my<\/i> loss. But uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Oh, it\u2019s mine\u2014<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> I have\u2014 I have a very\u2014 a very amiable and a very enjoyable conversation with uh, two of your uh, practitioners today, and uh\u2014 in the office<\/i>, I might add, and possibly you\u2019re aware of that.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Mmm-hmm. Yes. I am.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> Uh, they\u2019re always the uh, most\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> That\u2019s why I\u2019m calling\u2014 That\u2019s why I called, because uh, that\u2014 again, uh, that you were very kind<\/i>, but they felt that you had had an extra burden put on you by the fact that they had gone into that\u2014 that home<\/i> and uh, uh, I uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> Well\u2014 Well, if I hada been there, I think what I\u2019m reflected upon, Jim, if I hada been the\u2014 If I\u2019d been<\/i> there, I don\u2019t have to go through all of this gymnastics of talking to this person, this person, and this person to say, okay, precisely what went on, because, we have a very\u2014 what I consider a, a, a serious situation, because we have an operator that uh, we\u2014 there may well be some severe question and doubt to her capability<\/i>. Well, I have to be very certain of my facts<\/i> before I move on that\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Oh, I certainly understand that\u2014<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> \u2014and I\u2019m only\u2014 I\u2014 I probably should be apologetic. If I came across too hard, I think what I was trying to (unintelligible word under Jones interruption)\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> They didn\u2019t uh, they didn\u2019t have that feeling at all. They didn\u2019t have that feeling at all.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> (unintelligible word under Jones) \u2014 would be easier from my standpoint, and I\u2019m just very candid with people to say, when we do something in the future, maybe we\u2014 we could look at it in this kind, and that\u2019s hopefully not being demanding, but (unintelligible word under Jones interruption)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, you have to\u2014 you have to be, um\u2014 I\u2014\u00a0I gave uh, nothing less than a, a clear ultimatum that uh, no one<\/i> was to involve themselves with anyone under your jurisdiction or any senior citizen living in a uh, a Mendocino County agency\u2019s uh, home without consulting you directly through one of our upper echelon people. So this will not happen again. I had made it very clear<\/i>, the authorities, but the people interpreted “the authorities” to mean “the police,” and Mrs. LeTourneau seemed to be uh, disturbed that she didn\u2019t want to go in there uh, after hearing\u2014 and things build up to a crescendo, and then she, uh, she had uh, had some overt uh, or I don\u2019t\u2014 I don\u2019t think that\u2019s quite fair\u2014 a covert intimidation made towards her by Mrs. Marable, she felt. And uh, she felt she might do violence to her. I guess Mrs. LeTourneau was present when uh, an altercation took place at a bus<\/i> depot, and so she had that very vivid in her mind. Um\u2014 Talking to my good friend the chief<\/i>, though, he says that there was no visible knife that he uh\u2014 that there was no\u2014 no one that could ascertain that they saw a knife. But Mrs. LeTourneau feels that she definitely did <\/i>see her pull one. And I guess she was also present when her former husband\u2014 I guess she has a, a new uh, companion now, but the former husband was beaten with a uh, skillet or something, I\u2014 I don\u2019t know the uh, the total ramifications\u2014 If I<\/i> feel real derelict that I have not pursued this uh, situation more, because we have people living there that\u2014<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> Well, you have the same uh, apparent same concerns that I<\/i> have, Jim. We uh, you know, our responsibilities are uh, I should\u2014\u00a0I guess I probably should speak to mine<\/i>, uh, uh, I feel personally responsible for every home that uh, this office uh, licenses<\/i>\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> We know that. And I\u2014 I\u2019m perfectly willing\u2014<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> \u2014and what you\u2019re asking is, in my stead, is the\u2014 is uh, the way I see my responsibility. All right, but that\u2019s the way I see it.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, (unintelligible under Denny)\u2014 With your awareness of the situation, I have a full faith that you will\u2014\u00a0All I\u2019m interested in is the people there that are uh, uh\u2014 that I would be responsible, just\u2014 I have that same kind of sensitivity that you do about older people, and it really<\/i> pulls on me that this woman seems to be acting, uh, very very strangely. Uh, I\u2014 I can\u2019t\u2014\u00a0I can\u2019t really uh, pinpoint her, um, I\u2014 I\u2019m\u2014 I\u2019m shocked<\/i>, I\u2019m utterly shocked that she took uh, Mrs. LeTourneau in\u2014 into her trust to such a degree that she\u2019s bilked of, evidently, three or four thousand, that\u2019s\u2014 (stumbles over words) I\u2019ve been told. I have not got into the figures, but it\u2014\u00a0and on such ridiculous<\/i> things as abortions and that sort of thing. I\u2014 I can\u2019t imagine Mrs. LeTourneau really falling<\/i> for that type of line. But Mrs. LeTourneau is situated now where if\u2014 if she doesn\u2019t have a\u2014 any income forthcoming, or if she has uh, exhausted her present monthly expense, there\u2019ll be no problem. Did they give you the address of her whereabouts?<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> No, I did not inquire into that. That really is not any of my uh\u2014 (unintelligible under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, we\u2019ll provide you with\u2014 Well, if you want it, you know, we want you to have everything that you feel you need.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> Well, if\u2014 Jim, it might come to the point, and I was going to talk to possibly uh, either Tim [Stoen] or Mike [presumably Prokes], uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Good.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> \u2014uh, if\u2014 if\u2014\u00a0if it gets to the point that I<\/i> personally have to talk to the uh, to the elderly lady uh, to determine for my own personal satisfaction of what apparently went on, uh \u2014 I may have to do that \u2014 but I don\u2019t want to do that. I\u2014 I don\u2019t want to in\u2014 to invoke any further uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, I hope\u2014 Mr.\u2014 Mr. Heddy ah, told me\u2014 He\u2019s a good friend, a rancher across the way, who happens, by chance to uh, to lease this, and he told me, uh, just off the record, that\u2014 I presume they\u2019ve told you, I told them to tell you everything\u2014 that he uh, was uh, thinking of uh, just making her vacate the premises because of back rent that uh, she owes<\/i> him. Now I\u2014 I just sort of in my heart hope that that would take care of it, if indeed she\u2019s not giving the proper kind of care\u2014<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> Well, I\u2019m not uh\u2014 The\u2014 the type<\/i> of care is one issue, and that appears to be rather uh, pretty fair quality. It\u2019s the emotionalism<\/i> that\u2019s on the periphery of uh, of the care that (unintelligible under Jones) to be questionable.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Mmm-hmm. I\u2014 I\u2014 I\u2014 I frankly uh, had had no complaints<\/i> of anything ever being done to a patient, uh, until\u2014<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> No, our record is very strong, uh, very clean<\/i> on her, and uh, it\u2014 well, maybe that\u2019s\u2014 I\u2019m sorry, I probably uh, probably shouldn\u2019t word it that way, uh, the\u2014 what\u2014\u00a0what our record contains, but I\u2014 I guess I should mention\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (unintelligible interruption) I\u2019m not uh, I\u2019m not uh, concerned, I\u2019m not going to quote at you what you\u2014 (unintelligible under Denny)<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> Yeah. Okay. Well, I would appreciate that.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I certainly wouldn\u2019t.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> I\u2014 I\u2014 I know that you\u2019d want the same confidence in the conversation I have about our case, but I\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I would (unintelligible under Denny)\u2014 I would expect that and I would\u2014\u00a0I would reciprocate it.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> I\u2019m\u2014 my mind is on the case, and I have uh, I have no reason to believe that, and it\u2019s the\u2014 it\u2019s the other periphery issue that seemed to be\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I think<\/i> that something is been a new dimension added to it that, from what I gather, is that she is now drinking<\/i> uh, and I don\u2019t believe she used to do that, or at least I<\/i> never encountered the woman in the few times that she came round our facilities where she was inebriated. But I\u2019m getting a lot<\/i> of feedback. Uh, Mr. Heddy, her landlord said that he thought she was rally\u2014\u00a0really soused, so if a person is soused, I\u2014 I\u2019m sure that the worst part of\u2014<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> Well, the care has to deteriorate, there\u2019s no question about that.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yeah, I\u2014 But Mrs. LeTourneau has not<\/i> complained about any kind of treatment that she got, other than she\u2019s just been bilked<\/i> of all this uh, enormous amount of money. But Mrs. LeTourneau is of sound mind, and could\u2019ve uh, uh, could have refused<\/i> to give her uh, she gave\u2014 I mean, the woman told her she wanted loans, um\u2014 as far as I can gather. I really haven\u2019t gotten into it as fully as I would like. I\u2019ve been gone during some of this other episode in which the woman um, brought up about us uh, or some of our people supposedly taking Mr. Harvey, and she called some of our people into that<\/i>, and our people should never have even responded<\/i> to the woman. She said the police had ordered\u2014\u00a0and<\/i> the welfare had ordered uh, him to be removed<\/i>. Well, anybody with their right mind would know that uh, you don\u2019t order it through a family care home operator.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> Well, that\u2019s very true.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> So uh, I\u2014 I don\u2019t know what her um, what her situation is, but I have the complete<\/i> assurance\u2014 and the reason I called was not to take so much of your time other than to relay to you, that I had expressly done uh, what I\u2014 I\u2019ve told Tim to tell you, that I would tell them in the future never to get involved in these situations, and I had\u2014 I kept my part of the uh, the agreement, I told them to get the welfare authorities, and it somehow got garbled, and they thought this meant just the police. So they took the police with Mrs. LeTourneau, and\u2014 One<\/i> patient there who wanted to move, they did have the good sense not to move her. The police came to uh, one of our people and said another lady wants to move, Ella, oh\u2014<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> And uh\u2014 they\u2014 they said no, ah, they wouldn\u2019t\u2014 they would approach the welfare about that. So I\u2019m (stumbles over words)\u2014 have complete faith that you will find out what is uh, the case there, and\u2014<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> (Sighs) Well, we will, uh, there\u2019s no doubt, uh, but I would add, uh, the dimension too, Jim, that uh, I must uh\u2014 and I\u2019m sure you hear this often, and it is not uh, anything of\u2014 that dramatic, but I\u2014 I\u2019m most impressed, uh, with, uh, your people, uh, they have been most courteous to me uh\u2014 Today\u2019s conversation is an illustration of that, my relationship with uh, Tim is uh, what I think a very strong and uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Oh, he\u2019s very fond of you.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> \u2014very fine relationship, uh, and possibly sometimes we don\u2019t mention those things enough, but I surely want you<\/i> to know that, I\u2014 I don\u2019t know if you always hear it, but if you don\u2019t, uh, I\u2019m surely uh, impressed\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, what impresses me is your commitment to people, and uh, I (unintelligible under Denny) your comments about me\u2014 any comments about me, uh, certainly, uh, favorably uh, or unfavorably<\/i>, but that isn\u2019t your duty in a community, and I am most<\/i> impressed with what you\u2019ve brought<\/i> to that department. I was here when the department was run\u2014<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> We have a lot to do, Jim. (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> \u2014was run less\u2014 much less professionally<\/i> than it is now, and uh, I have the complete faith that uh, uh, with it in your<\/i> hands, that the older people\u2014 Now I want you to understand, we don\u2019t care where those older people um, are placed. They don\u2019t have to be in any facility connected with us, if you find that they need to be placed, or if you deem that the woman is capable of continuing<\/i> and operating, I will trust your judgment. I\u2014 I must say that I have such a body of evidence that I think when you uh, looked at it, you\u2019ll find the woman is uh, something\u2019s wrong<\/i>, something very badly wrong<\/i>, in that (stumbles over words) dealing, as you say, the peripheral way \u2014 I thought that was pretty well said \u2014 her intimidation, her subtle intimidation of her people to the point that they would feel they have to give her four\u2014\u00a0three or four thousand dollars. That\u2019s uh, that\u2019s absurd<\/i>. Nonetheless, Mrs. LeTourneau, I have to say, is not suffering from any uh, noticeable (unintelligible medical condition) that I<\/i> can observe at least. Uh, she did it on her own, and made the decisions<\/i>, but I\u2014 I\u2019m uh, uh, I\u2019m really gravely concerned about anyone else that might be there, for instance, this Ella. That\u2019s the only one the police told us that wanted to move. And if the rest are happy, and uh, you people are happy with wha\u2014\u00a0particularly you. I was a little concerned that Birdie [Arnold] kept mouthing off to different people, she keeps calling and uh, making threats to different ones on the telephone, uh, that uh, she\u2019s got a worker on her side and the worker said this and that and the other thing, but I do not judge a uh, department by what a worker may or may not have said, no more than I\u2019d want you to judge me by uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> Well, Jim, I\u2019ve always felt uh, as I\u2014 I think you have, uh, I\u2019ve always felt that if I had an issue, uh, that I wanted resolved personally, and it surely has not happened that frequently, that I can always feel free to come to you. I\u2014 I don\u2019t make (unintelligible under Jones)\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, feel free\u2014<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> \u2014judgments, and if anybody uh\u2014 and I have the same kind of uh, thoughts in my<\/i> head that I get misquoted or uh, whatever might be uh, if you have any question, you should\u2014 you should talk<\/i> to me about it, because I\u2014 I\u2014 I would want to be upfront on every topic, as I think you do\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes\u2014<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> \u2014and that\u2019s the only way we\u2019re going to survive uh, with the uh, with credibility<\/i>, and I underline the word credibility. We\u2019re going to be around uh, for a long time, (Laughs) I think.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> By the way, I understand that uh, through the grapevine of different business friends that uh, you\u2019re up for serious cuts on your budget. Is there anything that uh, good citizens can do to\u2014<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> No, uh, that\u2019s part of the\u2014 part of what we have to put up with of people. The thing that I\u2019m worried about most of all are my people that I\u2019m with, my staff that I have to rely upon, and those<\/i> people, I just won\u2019t let anything happen to, and uh, that\u2019s<\/i> my concern. I\u2014 I\u2019m concerned<\/i> in two areas. One, that people I\u2019m concerned with, or with\u2014 that I\u2019m affiliated with, the other is my clientele. I\u2014 I have (unintelligible under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Your work is\u2014<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> I\u2019m not going to let either one of those deteriorate, or I\u2019m going to move on<\/i>. And the board knows it, and\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Please don\u2019t (Laughs) without letting us do what we can to\u2014<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> \u2014and I\u2019ll move on before uh, I can have anything happen to my uh, either the staff or to the clients<\/i>. Uh, I just can\u2019t handle it, Jim. (unintelligible under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, please\u2014 Please uh, Mr. Denny, let us know before you ever move on, please let us know\u2014<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> (Laughs) Well, if I move on, I\u2019ll come and work with you, huh?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, do that. Do\u2014<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> We\u2019ll do\u2014 we\u2019ll do the mission a different way.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> But what I\u2019m saying is, uh, before you do, let the community speak on your behalf<\/i>. We have gotten certain things done, and we do have numbers<\/i>, at least, uh, I\u2014 I\u2014 I would just hate li\u2014 to see the welfare department deteriorate back to what it was before you came.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> I don\u2019t think it will. I don\u2019t think it will.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I\u2014 Well, it will if it\u2014 if you leave it, and I doubt\u2014\u00a0I hope that you\u2019re not ever thinking about that seriously.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> Yeah, but I can\u2019t uh\u2014 you know, it\u2019s just you can\u2019t put the head against the brick wall, you have to provide leadership. And if I can\u2019t provide that leadership, maybe somebody else can. (unintelligible under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, I think that uh\u2014 If you\u2014 If they don\u2019t allow you<\/i> to do it, it won\u2019t be done<\/i>, and uh, please let us give you any kind of support that we\u2014\u00a0you would deem um, of help. Uh, you\u2014 you remind me very much of a proficient pastor, only you can judge the fruits of your labor much more precisely than I\u2019m able to do.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> I\u2019m not sure. (Laughs) I\u2019m not totally sure of that.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> And thank you for the comment that I heard that you made about Mrs. Amos. That, uh, touched me, I\u2019ve been impressed and\u2014 (word unintelligible under Denny)<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> I\u2019m impressed, uh, Jim, the uh\u2014 I have\u2014 and I\u2019m not sure of all this, but it\u2019s just like I don\u2019t know who\u2019s necessarily Presbyterian and who\u2019s Catholic and who\u2019s Buddhist or whatever in my\u2014 in the organization, but I do the\u2014 know that there are some affiliated with you, and\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> I have high regard uh, for them all. I know where their philosophy lies, and uh, that\u2019s very important to me.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, if any of them give you any difficulties, you know we would be glad to talk\u2014<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> I\u2014 I uh\u2014 I had one unfortunate incident that uh, with a management thing, and uh, it was resolved, and uh, that\u2019s very long ago and uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yeah, I remember the case. How is he doing? Is he doing\u2014 Is he\u2014<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> Uh, to my knowledge, and uh, I\u2019m uh, we have no, no complaint whatsoever, uh\u2014 (unintelligible under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, I\u2014 I\u2014\u00a0I\u2019m sure\u2014<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> \u2014if we had or anyone li\u2014 you know, they would be told<\/i>, it\u2019s only fair that people are told what\u2019s expected of them.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Frankly, I told him at the time that he had better uh, give you the best of service if he wanted our<\/i> esteem.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> He has never\u2014 He has never held uh, you know\u2014\u00a0certain judgments are made<\/i> in administration, and I\u2014 I\u2014 I\u2019m of the opinion that uh, the individual in question understands<\/i> that. I\u2014 I\u2014 I don\u2019t feel there\u2019s any animosity there. Surely it\u2019s not on my<\/i> part, uh, I feel grateful for the\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> No, he has uh\u2014 He has very good feelings<\/i> towards you, that\u2019s why I was interested in knowing your perspective.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> That\u2019s my uh\u2014 that\u2019s my feeling, and if it\u2019s different, uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> No, I\u2019d tell you.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> \u2014I would relay that.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> And I appreciate your frankness with me. If the\u2014\u00a0if there\u2014\u00a0if any other boo-boos that we make, please uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> I don\u2019t think so. (Sighs)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Please uh, do let us know, I\u2014 As I say, I find that I\u2019m over-extended. With a few thousand members, it\u2019s just over-extension. I really am, and uh, don\u2019t\u2014 I don\u2019t hesitate to admit that. But I do<\/i> attempt to give a very conscientious service like you<\/i> do to your organization, and uh, uh, I uh, I\u2019d appreciate any objective criticism you can give at any time.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> I appre\u2014 Can I ask you uh, one uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Certainly\u2014<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> Off the uh\u2014 off onto another subject.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> Uh, how uh, how are things going with you in South America? Uh\u2014 (unintelligible under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Very well. Very well.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> I think I identified uh, that\u2014\u00a0that you\u2019ve been there recently, or\u2014 (unintelligible under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes, I have, and uh, it\u2019s a most fascinating<\/i>\u2014 fascinating<\/i> undertaking to be able to produce food in a very needy world, and we have been able to dis\u2014 distribute tons<\/i> of food in\u2014 in South America.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> Are you\u2014\u00a0Are you growing that, or teaching people how to do that?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes\u2014 yes, we teach<\/i> uh\u2014 We employ the native, uh, and it\u2019s been uh, an amazing effect, we had uh, we were surrounded by pro-Muscovite kind of, real militant communists, and we made such inroads with the people by providing work, that I think we\u2019ve uh, eliminated the threat uh, in that area of uh, in our\u2014 I don\u2019t mean the entire country, I\u2019m talking about in our region<\/i>. I would certainly want to qualify the statement\u2014<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> This is in southern\u2014 in South America\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes, right on the uh, Venezuelan border. And we have 27,000 acres that uh, was given\u2014 And it\u2019s a purely, truly an adventure. Some young people who can\u2019t um, work out so well in college, who have more technical skills, we uh, we\u2019ve gotten them there, I\u2014 I\u2019m sure we\u2019ve saved a couple of young people from probably trouble in urban life, they\u2019re working out beautifully<\/i>, uh, we have developed now a thousand acres, and you\u2019ve\u2014\u00a0we\u2019ve got a cross-section\u2014 section of every kind of thing that would grow\u2014 that grows here as well as there. And I\u2014 it li\u2014 it just seems like the, a little paradise on earth. When I go down there, I\u2019m so tempted never to return, I can\u2019t tell you how\u2014\u00a0how inviting<\/i> it is. Uh, there\u2019s a cosmopolitan attitude uh, that uh, naturally, having a multi-ethnic group, we\u2014\u00a0we have every race in the rainbow, and Jewish and Protestant, of, of every variety, and there\u2019s such an acceptance<\/i> in that part of the world. There isn\u2019t the\u2014 the racial problem that you notice in a more provincial, agricultural community. Although I must say that people, generally speaking throughout this community, in leadership or in business or in the establishment, we\u2014 we don\u2019t notice the problem. But there is a vociferous little minority that uh, that frightens<\/i> one. I don\u2019t know whether you read about the blacks being run out of Taft, uh, California\u2014<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> Um, yes I did.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Uh, I\u2014 I think that with economic difficulties, this type of tension increases.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> (unintelligible under Jones) That happens.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> It does. But it has been a fascinating experience for us, and the people there, um\u2014 It\u2019s just like a, the early pioneer must have felt when they went to the west, uh, we\u2019ve lost any place to pioneer, really, in the, in the States and\u2014\u00a0and there is the last virgin territory, I suppose, in the world<\/i>, or one of the last areas, and we\u2019re finding a very fertile uh, field for any type of, of food growth, and uh, I think it\u2019s the best<\/i> thing you can do to combat uh, dictatorial ideas, both right and left\u2014<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> It surely is one of them.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Uh, it\u2019s\u2014 Well, I\u2019d say, that\u2014\u00a0that again was presumptuous statement, perhaps, but really, uh, the uh, way to a man\u2019s um, consciousness is through his stomach in a great\u2014\u00a0great respect, and we have been able to provide a real nutritional balance for that\u2014 that region<\/i>. I don\u2019t know whether we\u2019re going to make any difference in the long run<\/i>, I\u2019m a little concerned about the\u2014 the state of democracy all over the world<\/i>. But um, at least we\u2019re in there pitching, and I wish you could see it, it\u2019s a fascinating\u2014 (unintelligible under Denny)<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> Well, I uh, I uh, I mean I\u2019m intrigued, Jim, uh, I don\u2019t know how I uh, if there would be some way I could manage to uh, go down<\/i> there uh, I\u2019d be uh, most interested. That\u2014 That type of thing\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Good.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> \u2014has utmost interest for me. Uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, we\u2019ll keep that in mind.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> We don\u2019t want\u2014 we uh\u2014\u00a0You know, most of us are very selfish with our time, I\u2014 I have to acknowledge that, although you know we uh, pro\u2014 I\u2019m sure not as much as you, but you know, 18 hours a day, it gets pretty long<\/i> after a while in this business. (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I\u2019m sure it does.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> But uh, I have a gro\u2014\u00a0The interest there for other folks, if you will, is, is very deep with me, and uh, I\u2019m very intrigued in that. The first time I\u2019d ever heard about it was when I read about it. I uh, I had no knowledge of it before.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> You didn\u2019t know about it.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> No, I did not know about it, other than just reading the uh, the press release if\u2014 and anything I read in the paper, I refer to a release, so I\u2019m\u2014 (unintelligible word under Jones\u2019 laugh)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> \u2014 somebody wrote it.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes, that\u2019s true.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> But uh, that\u2019s the only time I uh, I was, I was of interest, and I had mentioned to my wife, uh, there\u2014\u00a0there goes another plus for the, the Peoples Temple.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I think it\u2019s maybe\u2014<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> I was mentioning it to uh, to Don, uh, Salisbury, I said, my gosh, old Jim\u2019s going at it again, Don, and uh, we had a brief conversation on it.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I think in some ways, uh, uh, Mr. Denny, it\u2019s the most concrete<\/i> uh, results, and I\u2014 I have frustrated as a\u2014\u00a0as a pastor feels so frustrated in weighing your results in, in the total picture, but there, when you deliver so many tons of food<\/i> per month to needy people, and provide jobs, which is more important, jobs that give them a means of combating their own poverty, uh, you\u2014 it\u2019s a real<\/i> healthy feeling.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> I\u2019m impressed.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> And uh, I\u2014 I wish (stumbles over words) the next time Tim\u2019s about, I\u2019ll have him show you some of our, our pictures of uh, the project uh, (unintelligible under Denny)<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> Please be uh\u2014 please remember my interest, I would\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yeah, and if you\u2019re ever\u2014 if you find you can get a break<\/i> from it, we\u2014 I go down there twice a year. Let me know and you\u2014 let you see it.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> Oh boy. This\u2014 You\u2019re gonna intrigue me, you know. (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I thought you would be intrigued, you would\u2014 uh, it\u2019d be awfully hard to repl\u2014 re\u2014 return with your sensitivity and dedication, it\u2019d be hard to return to your awesome job, I\u2014<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> I know. I hate to uh\u2014\u00a0When you\u2019re making a statement, you know, it\u2019s difficult to come back, uh, I<\/i> get that way uh, on such issues. I uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, please stay\u2014<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> I go to Mexico, uh, I\u2019ve been doing these thing in Mexico\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Oh, you have\u2014<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> Oh, I did that when\u2014\u00a0that\u2019s one of\u2014 one of the reasons I\u2019m in this business, uh\u2014 I was raised in a ghetto, and uh, by uh, by Mexicans, and uh, I have a very close relationship to them and the Japanese who they took away from me on\u2014 in 1941 when they took them to the desert, you know, and I didn\u2019t understand that then, and I vowed to God I\u2019d never let that happen, as long as\u2014 when I<\/i> became an adult. Anyway, that\u2019s where I started, in Mexico, and South America\u2019s just a little farther down the line.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, bless your heart.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> But uh, you know it\u2014\u00a0it isn\u2019t our own community<\/i>, Jim, it\u2019s the world, it\u2019s the people in the whole world<\/i>, and the peo\u2014 and everybody\u2019s too narrow, and uh, that\u2019s what I\u2014 why\u2014 one of the admirations I have for your philosophy, I think you uh, you\u2014 you carry it much farther than most people do.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, there\u2019s a lot to do\u2014\u00a0lot of room for more that we could do, and it\u2019s kind of you to say that, but I hope<\/i> \u2014\u00a0and I say this deep<\/i> from my heart \u2014\u00a0that you stay in our community, and it\u2019s certainly enlightened self-interest, I admit\u2014\u00a0I\u2019ll be the first to admit, but there\u2019s a deel\u2014\u00a0deep note of altruism, this community needs you, and if there\u2019s any way we can ever do\u2014 anything we can do to help<\/i> your work, and please\u2014 let<\/i> us know if we\u2019re burdening you. I was very<\/i> sorry when they said that uh, uh, that uh, moving Mrs. LeTourneau again created a\u2014 some extra difficulty.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> Well, I possibly shouldn\u2019t have said that, but uh\u2014 maybe I uh\u2014 I am so<\/i> upfront with people, and uh, and I do\u2014\u00a0I hope I didn\u2019t mention it in a\u2014 (unintelligible under Jones interruption)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> No, no. Now that\u2014 (stumbles over words)<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> \u2014very terse or a way that I should be apologetic, I did not mean that uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Uh, I\u2014 I tell you, as you say, upfront, you were\u2014 They said you were extremely cordial, and they felt uh, bad<\/i>, uh, our point was a feeling of guilt, and not the way, the way you presented it.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> (interruption unintelligible under Jones) I don\u2019t want anybody to ever feel guilty, especially with such fine people.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, we\u2014 I did<\/i> do my job, I just\u2014 I was sort of\u2014 it\u2019s a kind of a defensive posture that I called, I just wanted you to know that when I told\u2014 I hope<\/i> Tim told you\u2014 I pr\u2014 I know he did\u2014 it probably\u2014 he\u2019s\u2014 I\u2019ve found him to be so conscientious, I said to tell<\/i> Mr. Denny that I will see<\/i> that our people do not uh, listen uh, not only, not only to Mrs. Marable, they will not go anywhere<\/i>, that they\u2019re beckoned to unless it\u2019s something that you personally direct. And then for it to happen and\u2014 again\u2014 But I did clearly<\/i> say to them, get in contact with you, but they misinterpreted, uh, Mr. [Jim] McElvane misinterpreted “authorities” to mean “police.” So they got police in\u2014\u00a0but it won\u2019t happen now, I have called each<\/i> one of my secretaries personally<\/i> since your la\u2014\u00a0afternoon interview, and it will not<\/i> happen again, I can assure you.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> (unintelligible under Jones) \u2014no problem, I don\u2019t want anybody to feel guilty. Would you uh, before I uh, uh, say goodbye, would you promise me one thing?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I\u2019ll try.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> Next time you\u2019re around town, or in the very near future, why don\u2019t you call me and we\u2019ll have a cup of coffee together. I\u2019d rather talk to you when we don\u2019t have to debate concerns\u2014 (unintelligible under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Oh, yes, wouldn\u2019t that be nice?<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> So when you\u2019re in town, would you fee\u2014\u00a0please feel free, if you have a moment\u2014 (unintelligible under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I will do that. I\u2014<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> As a matter of fact, I\u2019d probably even buy<\/i>, you know? You can\u2019t beat that<\/i>. (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, no\u2014 I\u2014 no, it\u2019d be\u2014 I would be so happy\u2014<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> I know you\u2019re busy, Jim, but if you do, would you uh, and you have a moment, I\u2019d like, you know, it\u2019s sa\u2014\u00a0as I said, the only times it seems that we ever talk is when we\u2019ve got something we\u2019ve gotta resolve<\/i> or whatever, well\u2014<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, I\u2019ll\u2014 I\u2019ll see that that\u2019s<\/i> changed.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I\u2019ll call you when we don\u2019t have a problem.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> Nice talking to you.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (Laughs) Thank you, Mr. Denny.<\/p>\n

Denny:<\/b> Bye-bye.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Bye.<\/p>\n

End of tape<\/strong><\/p>\n

Tape originally posted April 2002<\/b><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee, III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you. To return to the Tape Index, click here. To listen to MP3, click here. To read the Tape Summary, click here. (Note: This tape was one of the 53 tapes initially withheld from public disclosure.) Part […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":6,"featured_media":0,"parent":27291,"menu_order":474,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-27553","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27553","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/6"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=27553"}],"version-history":[{"count":7,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27553\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":59999,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27553\/revisions\/59999"}],"up":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27291"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=27553"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}