{"id":27557,"date":"2013-06-16T00:20:59","date_gmt":"2013-06-16T00:20:59","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/alternativejonestown.com\/?page_id=27557"},"modified":"2016-02-18T22:44:34","modified_gmt":"2016-02-18T22:44:34","slug":"q714","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=27557","title":{"rendered":"Q714 Transcript"},"content":{"rendered":"

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.<\/strong><\/i><\/p>\n

To return to the Tape Index, click here<\/a>. To listen to MP3, click here<\/a>.
\nTo read the Tape Summary, click here<\/a>.<\/p>\n

Unidentified woman 1:<\/b> \u20141 A Street, Apartment 2, San Francisco, California. I would do anything\u2014 any means to this chur\u2014 for this church. If anyone caused or tried to harm this church, I would kill the president or stake my life upon this church in order to protect the pastor.<\/p>\n

(Tape edit)<\/p>\n

Harris: <\/b>My name is John Harris, and I\u2019m a violent revolutionary, and I killed three children.<\/p>\n

(Tape edit)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Your name?<\/p>\n

Jackson: <\/b>Corrine Jackson. I would kill any government official that would stand in the way of our church progress. (Tape edit) My address is P.O. Box 62, Redwood Valley, California.<\/p>\n

(Tape edit)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Your name?<\/p>\n

Tardy: <\/b>Armella Tardy.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Who?<\/p>\n

Tardy: <\/b>Armella Tardy.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> State what you\u2019d (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What would\u2014 What would you do for this cause?<\/p>\n

Tardy:<\/b> (Brightly) Oh. I would\u2014\u00a0I would kill um, murder, or do anything, you know.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Who?<\/p>\n

Tardy: <\/b>Oh, I\u2019ll kill [former President Richard] Nixon and [former President Gerald R.] Ford, and anybody else like him.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> All right. (Tape edit) Okay, what\u2019s your name?<\/p>\n

Canada: <\/b>Mary F. Canada.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Mary Canada?<\/p>\n

Canada: <\/b>Mary F.<\/i><\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Okay, Mary, what would you do for this cause?<\/p>\n

Canada: <\/b>I\u2019d do anything (unintelligible under background noise).<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Well, what can you do? If somebody was threatening to\u2014 threatening us and hurting this cause, what would you do to them?<\/p>\n

Canada: <\/b>I\u2019d tell them to take me.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What else would you do?<\/p>\n

Canada: <\/b>I\u2019d die for this family\u2014 (tape edit) if\u2014 if I had to do.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> You\u2019d do what?<\/p>\n

Canada: <\/b>Kill the president.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What\u2019s your name?<\/p>\n

Richards: <\/b>Ada Richards [phonetic].<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Where do you live?<\/p>\n

Richards: <\/b>1719 – 15th Street.<\/p>\n

(tape silence for several seconds)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Who would you kill?<\/p>\n

Richards: <\/b>I\u2019d kill the president.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Okay. And that\u2019s good\u2014<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What\u2019s your name?<\/p>\n

Pryor: <\/b>Netha Mae Pryor [phonetic].<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Netha?<\/p>\n

(tape silence for several seconds)<\/p>\n

Pryor: <\/b>I\u2019d murder or steal, I\u2019d do anything\u2014<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Who would you kill?<\/p>\n

Pryor: <\/b>Anybody get in of our way.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Give me a name. Who would you kill?<\/p>\n

Pryor: <\/b>The president.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Who?<\/p>\n

Pryor: <\/b>Ford.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Okay, what\u2019s your name?<\/p>\n

Lathan: <\/b>Emil Lathan [phonetic].<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Okay. Where do you live?<\/p>\n

Lathan: <\/b>Oakland. 1610 – 14th Street.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Okay. And what would you do for this cause?<\/p>\n

Lathan: <\/b>Anything that I could.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Well, what\u2014 Like what?<\/p>\n

Lathan: <\/b>Well, whatever it comes<\/i> to.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Okay, what was your name?<\/p>\n

Lorraine Davis: <\/b>Lorraine Davis.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Okay, Lorraine. What would you do for this family?<\/p>\n

Lorraine Davis: <\/b>Well, I\u2019d\u2014 I\u2019d do whatever\u2014 Whatever it takes for the fa\u2014 for the family, and Father uh. (unintelligible under interviewer interruption)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What would you be for this family? If it became necessary, what would you be for this family?<\/p>\n

Lorraine Davis: <\/b>Well, for Father, I\u2019d be\u2014 I mean, could I\u2014 I\u2014<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What would you be?<\/p>\n

Lorraine Davis: <\/b>I\u2019d say\u2014 Well, whatever Father says. If it\u2019s violent, I\u2019d be violent. If Father sa\u2014<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What was your name?<\/p>\n

Verser: <\/b>My name is Valerie Verser [phonetic].<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Valerie, what would you do for this cause?<\/p>\n

Verser: <\/b>Well, I would be a revolutionary for the family and for Father. I would be a violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Okay. Thank you.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What\u2019s your name?<\/p>\n

White: <\/b>Roberta White.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Where do you live, Roberta?<\/p>\n

White: <\/b>840 Rockdale Drive, San Francisco.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What would you do for this cause?<\/p>\n

White: <\/b>I would be a violent revolutionary (unintelligible phrase under background noise)<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What\u2019s your name?<\/p>\n

Dyson: <\/b>Florine. F-L-O-R-I-N-E. D-Y-S-O-N. Florine Dyson.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Thank you. What would you do for\u2014 (unintelligible phrase under background noise)<\/p>\n

Dyson: <\/b>Oh, I would give my life. I\u2014 uh, uh, oh, this revolutionary that Jim Jones calls for.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What\u2019s your name, girl?<\/p>\n

Alexander: <\/b>Leslie [Lesey] Alexander [phonetic].<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What are you?<\/p>\n

Alexander: <\/b>I am a violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What is your name?<\/p>\n

Delly: <\/b>Lily Delly. [phonetic]<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Where do you live, Lily?<\/p>\n

Delly: <\/b>828 Athens Avenue.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What are you?<\/p>\n

Delly: <\/b>I am a violent ru\u2014 revolutionary, and I will do anything for this cause.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What\u2019s your name?<\/p>\n

McMichael: <\/b>Gloria McMichael.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What are you, Gloria?<\/p>\n

McMichael: <\/b>I am a violent revolutionary, and I would do anything for this cause.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What\u2019s your name?<\/p>\n

Forks: <\/b>Viola Ford [Forks?].<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What are you, Viola?<\/p>\n

Forks: <\/b>A violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What\u2019s your name?<\/p>\n

Eas: <\/b>Ruby Eas. [phonetic]<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What are you, Ruby?<\/p>\n

Eas: <\/b>I\u2019m a violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What\u2019s your name?<\/p>\n

Snubley: <\/b>Beatrice Snubley [phonetic].<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What are you, Beatrice?<\/p>\n

Snubley: <\/b>(Speech impairment?) I am a\u2014 a\u2014 okay, a revolutionissionary.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What is your name?<\/p>\n

Cooper: <\/b>My name is Blanche Cooper. I am a violent lution\u2014 (laughs)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Revolution\u2014<\/p>\n

Cooper: <\/b>Lolu\u2014 Revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What is your name?<\/p>\n

Walker: <\/b>Wesley Walker.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What are you?<\/p>\n

Walker: <\/b>I\u2019m a viol\u2014 vile revolutionist.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What is your name?<\/p>\n

Pursley: <\/b>My name is Marilyn Pursley. I\u2019m a violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Anderson: <\/b>My name is Jimmy Anderson, and I\u2019m a violent revolutionary, and I\u2019ll kill for this cause.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What is your name?<\/p>\n

Elick Richmond: <\/b>Elick [phonetic] Richmond, Jr.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What are you?<\/p>\n

(whispered prompt, by interviewer?) I\u2019m a violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

Elick Richmond: <\/b>I\u2019m a violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(whispered) \u2014do anything for this\u2014<\/p>\n

Elick Richmond: <\/b>I\u2019d do anything for this cause.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What was your name?<\/p>\n

Bertha Richmond: <\/b>My name is Bertha Bernita Richmond.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What are you?<\/p>\n

Bertha Richmond: <\/b>I\u2019m a violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Your name?<\/p>\n

Atkins: <\/b>Michelle Atkins.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What are you?<\/p>\n

Atkins: <\/b>I\u2019m a violent revolutionary, and I\u2019ll kill for this cause.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What\u2019s your name?<\/p>\n

Miles: <\/b>Michael.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Mike who?<\/p>\n

Miles: <\/b>Miles.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Wh\u2014 What are you, Mike?<\/p>\n

(whispered prompt, by interviewer?) I\u2019m a violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

Miles: <\/b>I\u2019m a violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What\u2019s your name?<\/p>\n

Dandy: <\/b>Willa Dandy.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What are you?<\/p>\n

Dandy: <\/b>Violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What is your name?<\/p>\n

Rodriguez: <\/b>Gloria Rodriguez.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What are you?<\/p>\n

Rodriguez: <\/b>I\u2019m a violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What\u2019s your name?<\/p>\n

Janet Tupper: <\/b>Janet Tupper.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Janet? What are you?<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/b> (aside) Right.<\/p>\n

Janet Tupper: <\/b>A violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Rita Tupper: <\/b>I\u2019m Rita Tupper.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What are you?<\/p>\n

Rita Tupper: <\/b>A violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Phyllis Chaikin: <\/b>I\u2019m Phyllis Chaikin, a violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Mary Martin:<\/b> My name is Mary Martin, I\u2019m a violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Cassandra Minor:<\/b> My name is Cassandra Minor, and I\u2019m a violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What was your name?<\/p>\n

Henry: <\/b>Henry (last name unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What are you, Henry (last name unintelligible; sounds like “Todd”)?<\/p>\n

Henry: <\/b>Um\u2014<\/p>\n

(whispered prompt, by interviewer?) A violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

Henry: <\/b>A violent (stumbles over word several times) revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Kerns:<\/b> My name is Carol Kerns, and I\u2019m a violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Davis: <\/b>My name is Mabel Davis, and I\u2019m a violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

King: <\/b>My name is Teresa King, and I\u2019m a violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

Laws: <\/b>My name is Megaline [phonetic; could be Magdaline] Laws, and I\u2019m a violent reso\u2014 revolutionary.<\/p>\n

Groot: <\/b>My name is Pauline Groot, and I am a violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Kice: <\/b>My name is Christine Kice. I am a violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Watkins:<\/b> (Stumbles over words)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What\u2019s your name, dear?<\/p>\n

Watkins:<\/b> Earlene Watkins, and I\u2019m a violent (stumbles over word several times) revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Julianna Wyle:<\/b> My name is Julianna Wyle, and I am a violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

Jackie Wyle:<\/b> My name is Jackie Wyle, and I am a violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Pat Keeler:<\/b> Pat Keeler. I am a violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

De Pina: <\/b>(stumbles over words) revolution.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What is your name?<\/p>\n

De Pina: <\/b>Miguel De Pina.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What are you, Miguel?<\/p>\n

De Pina: <\/b>A violent revolution.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What\u2019s your name?<\/p>\n

Sims: <\/b>Uh\u2014 Andrew Sims. Andrew Sims.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What are you?<\/p>\n

Sims: <\/b>Violent revolution.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Your name?<\/p>\n

Spriggs: <\/b>Nate Spriggs.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Uh\u2014 What are you, Nate?<\/p>\n

Spriggs: <\/b>A violent reso\u2014 revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Your name?<\/p>\n

Hoyer:<\/b> Barbara Hoyer. I am a violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What\u2019s your name?<\/p>\n

Swinney: <\/b>Dave, and I\u2019m a violent um, revolutionist.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What\u2019s your full name, David?<\/p>\n

Swinney: <\/b>David Eugene Swinney.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Wyman: <\/b>Marva Wyman [phonetic], I\u2019m a violent ruso\u2014 revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Lisa Lewis: <\/b>Name is Lisa Lewis, I am a violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Smith: <\/b>My name is David E. V. Smith. I\u2019m a violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Baker: <\/b>My name is Brich [phonetic] Baker, and I am a\u2014<\/p>\n

(Whispered prompt) Violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

Baker: <\/b>\u2014violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> What\u2019s your name?<\/p>\n

Wise: <\/b>Vannie Wise [phonetic].<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Where do you live?<\/p>\n

Wise: <\/b>On\u2014 in\u2014 on Broderick.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Okay. What are you?<\/p>\n

Wise: <\/b>A violent ruso\u2014 ruso\u2014<\/p>\n

(Whispered prompt) Revolutionary.<\/p>\n

Wise: <\/b>Revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Your name?<\/p>\n

Rodgers: <\/b>Mary Rodgers, and I\u2019m a violent ru\u2014 revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Hill: <\/b>My name is Howard Hill, and I am a violent revolutionary when the time is right. (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Upshaw: <\/b>My name is Eric Upshaw, and I\u2019m a violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Barry Lewis: <\/b>My name is Barry Lewis. I\u2019m a violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Drain: <\/b>My name is Judis Drain [phonetic], and I\u2019m a violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit) (tape edit)<\/p>\n

Georgia: <\/b>My name is Georgia Necotin [phonetic], and uh\u2014 and I\u2019m a violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Symington: <\/b>My name is Gail Symington, and I am a violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

Anita Kelley<\/strong>: My name is Anita Kelley, and I\u2019m\u2014 am a violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Sly: <\/b>My name is Mark Sly, uh\u2014 and I am a violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Unknown man: <\/b>My name is (unintelligible name; could be “Marvin Warsher”), and I am a follower of revolutionary. (tape edit) My name is (same unintelligible name), and I want\u2014 and I am a violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Joann Davis: <\/b>I am Joann Davis. I am a violent revolutionary. I have the ways and the means to do it.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/b> Your name?<\/p>\n

Flowers: <\/b>My name is Rebecca Flowers. I\u2019m a violent revolutionary.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Side 2:<\/p>\n

Part 2:<\/strong><\/p>\n

Harold Dowler:<\/b> \u2014in fairness, threw out that man, and uh, I said to him, I said, well, Art, I don\u2019t think we can blame ourselves, we were fair and open and aboveboard, and we have no apology for anything that we<\/i> did, and he said, well, I know that, but what we should<\/i> have done is organized ourselves to\u2014 to really try to push this thing through, instead of just uh, you know, letting the opposition organize and not uh, not try to respond to that. And I said, well, you know, I don\u2019t\u2014 I just don\u2019t that being the Christian way. I\u2014 I\u2019m not opposed to being organized<\/i>, but I\u2019m\u2014 I\u2019m also not in favor of fear tactics, that kind of stuff, you know, or getting into name-calling and that, I don\u2019t think that has any place in the church, you know. It\u2019s not a very\u2014 That\u2019s not a very healthy thing.<\/p>\n

J.R. Purifoy: <\/b>Um-hmm.<\/p>\n

Dowler:<\/b> So\u2014 So I think we\u2014 we\u2019ll see where it comes. I\u2014 I think the impact of uh, Peoples Temple, uh, will, will\u2014 will mean that that church will never<\/i> be the same, as I say, after that vote. Uh, there is<\/i> a lot of\u2014 (Pause) (sighs) There is a lot of difference of opinion<\/i> between people in that congregation and the\u2014 and the group that uh, was in favor of the merger, of course, are people who\u2014 who are in favor of inclusiveness<\/i>. The merger was defeated<\/i> by people who are very<\/i> much opposed to inclusiveness, who want to have their own little\u2014 their own little group, and decide who can be in it, and who can\u2019t. That\u2019s what I think, so\u2014 So I don\u2019t know where it\u2019ll\u2014 you know, where it\u2019ll all end up, uh, I think it\u2019s too early yet for people to have uh, finally decided what it\u2019s all about.<\/p>\n

Purifoy: <\/b>Well, what was your attendance running before uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Dowler:<\/b> Oh, our attendance is running a hundred, on a good Sunday, in the summer.<\/p>\n

Purifoy: <\/b>And what\u2014 What did it run uh, today?<\/p>\n

Dowler:<\/b> Well, today it was back up again. It was\u2014 (stumbles over words) I\u2019d guess, if I didn\u2019t count, or hear anybody that counted, but I would\u2014 it was up again today. There\u2019s still a lot of enthusiasm. The\u2014 The group<\/i> that opposed this was called on the carpet pretty clearly by Bill Reed who\u2014 and by myself, but uh, Bill\u2019s been very<\/i> clear about it. He said, you know, you folks are either gonna have to put up or shut<\/i> up, because\u2014 And I guess he\u2014 I haven\u2019t seen it, but he says he\u2019s putting an article in the\u2014 in the paper this week, in our church paper about it this week, uh, saying you, know, hey folks, (laughs) don\u2019t play that kind of game with us. You gotta get off uh, center and do things.<\/p>\n

Purifoy: <\/b>Yeah, that (unintelligible word under interruption)<\/p>\n

Dowler:<\/b> So the attendance was up today. The attendance was up, uh, like what you would expect it in the fall, when everything\u2019s really<\/i> going and that, uh, very good attendance today, as far as our congregation is concerned. You know, uh\u2014 It\u2019ll be interesting to see whether, you know, whether that continues, and that kind of thing.<\/p>\n

Purifoy: <\/b>Well, what about the leaders of the\u2014 of, you know, of the church, the\u2014<\/p>\n

Dowler:<\/b> I think they\u2019re pretty depressed right now, I\u2014 I think in fairness, they\u2019re pretty depressed, J.R., I uh\u2014 that\u2019s my impression.<\/p>\n

Purifoy: <\/b>Well, that\u2019s uh, that\u2019s been our concern, because uh, we sure didn\u2019t want to cause any division of any kind\u2014<\/p>\n

Dowler:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Purifoy: <\/b>\u2014did not mean<\/i> it to come a division at all<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Dowler:<\/b> Well, they\u2014 They\u2019re not\u2014 There\u2019s\u2014 You can\u2019t\u2014 I don\u2019t think you can accept any responsibility for their depression. They\u2019re\u2014 They\u2019re uh\u2014 The leadership was very\u2014 was very<\/i> pleased with what went on, and uh, uh\u2014 (Pause) But as I say, it\u2019s uh\u2014 I\u2019ve only had one other experience, my\u2014\u00a0my more than ten years of\u2014 of work\u2014 uh, in a\u2014 in a professional leadership position, uh. When people get involved in the business of fear tactics and uh\u2014\u00a0and name-calling kind of thing, in that, uh, you know, I\u2014 I think that\u2019s the church at its very worst, uh, \u2018cause I think that\u2019s what our world kinda thrives on, and I think that\u2019s contrary to the gospel, contrary to the way of faith. And Dan Thornton, uh, was ring leader of this thing, and Dan\u2019s just a\u2014 a\u2014 (Pause) I\u2014 I really don\u2019t know about Dan. He\u2014 He\u2019s a real enigma to me, and I\u2019ve\u2014 I\u2019ve just uh\u2014 Dan just became more and more and more ruthless in this thing, and uh\u2014 and his wife, of course, uh, loving every bit of it, uh, Margaret\u2019s uh\u2014 The people tell me that if you had to live with her, that\u2019s the way I\u2019d be too, but I\u2014 I don\u2019t know, I uh\u2014 I don\u2019t think that\u2019s the excuse for a grown man.<\/p>\n

Purifoy: <\/b>Well, I\u2019m sorry. I\u2014 What I\u2014 I\u2014 I thought it was Bill Reed<\/i> that caused the problem, but if I remember correctly, it was Dan.<\/p>\n

Dowler:<\/b> Oh, no, it was Dan. No, no, Bill is\u2014 Bill worked and worked and worked. He\u2014 Bill is\u2014 Fact is, Bill is\u2014 If\u2014 If\u2014 The\u2014\u00a0The fact that things are as\u2014\u00a0are going well right now is really attributable to Bill. Bill\u2019s uh\u2014\u00a0Bill\u2019s uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Purifoy: <\/b>I just had my names confused.<\/p>\n

Dowler:<\/b> Sure, sure. No, I understand. Bill\u2019s uh, is the new chairman of the board. Bill\u2019s a super, super guy right now. He\u2019s uh\u2014 Bill\u2019s got a capacity to help people laugh and kind of chuckle at themselves, and the church sure needs that right now, and uh\u2014 and uh\u2014\u00a0No, there\u2019s some very angry people at uh\u2014 at Dan uh\u2014 But as I say, I\u2019m\u2014 I\u2019m\u2014 I\u2019m proud that uh, that none of those people have uh, you know\u2014 no one has chosen to\u2014 to be malicious in response<\/i> to Dan. Um, a lot of people have been very badly hurt, but uh\u2014 uh\u2014 it\u2019s been my position that uh, we, you know\u2014 I\u2014 I think it\u2019s not appropriate to respond in kind, \u2018cause to respond to Dan uh, the way he<\/i> does, is uh, you know, is really destructive of personhood. I think it\u2019ll\u2014 it\u2019ll eat you up like a cancer. I think that\u2019s probably what\u2019s wrong with Dan. I think he\u2019s a man who\u2019s, you know, really possessed with some real trouble inside. I don\u2019t know what the story is, but\u2014<\/p>\n

Purifoy: <\/b>Well, what\u2019s been his<\/i> attitude since the vote?<\/p>\n

Dowler:<\/b> Well, uh\u2014 No, no, I think Dan\u2019s attitude is sort of uh, pretty self-righteous about the whole thing, pretty pleased and uh, and uh, as I say, I think uh, you know, very, very self-righteous, and uh, I think that\u2019s kinda where he is on the thing. It\u2019s uh\u2014 He\u2014 His\u2014 He\u2014 He portrays himself as a man who has really saved the church from despair and destruction, and as I say, the leadership is\u2014 is uh\u2014\u00a0is uh, really very\u2014 you know, very unhappy, \u2018cause Dan has not<\/i> been a good leader at all through the years. He\u2019s uh\u2014 He has uh, muscled his way into leadership in various areas, but has not proven to be a good leader when he has it. There were people this week entertaining the thought of just uh, of putting pressure on Bill Reed to say, Bill, why don\u2019t you just resign and let Dan have the chairmanship, and uh\u2014 you know, \u2018cause the fact is, if they turned the leadership over to this group, why, the thing\u2019d be dead in a matter of a couple of months, and uh\u2014 \u2018cause there\u2019s simply no\u2014 There are no stewards<\/i> in the group. There are people in there who like to talk, but then, the gospel doesn\u2019t survive<\/i> on talk. It takes people who are willing to put their money and their life on the line, so\u2014 So I don\u2019t know where we\u2019ll\u2014 where that\u2019ll all\u2014 where that\u2019ll all come out, uh\u2014 I was uh\u2014 I\u2019m still very, very<\/i> concerned about whoever it was that called up Jim\u2019s uh, place, and made such ugly remarks, and that\u2014 and uh\u2014 I\u2019ve\u2014\u00a0I\u2019ve tried to kind of put that out of my mind, I uh\u2014 There\u2014 (Word unintelligible under interruption)<\/p>\n

Purifoy: <\/b>Well, we\u2019ve put that out of our mind. That wasn\u2019t even an issue with us. We\u2014 We get a lot of these crank calls anyway<\/i>. The\u2014 A week doesn\u2019t go by with what we don\u2019t get them.<\/p>\n

Dowler:<\/b> Yeah. Sure.<\/p>\n

Purifoy: <\/b>Because being the kind of uh, group we are and having the kind of a leader we have, we do incur people\u2019s wrath along with the goodwill of many<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Dowler:<\/b> Right. Right.<\/p>\n

Purifoy: <\/b>Such as the newspapers and the Sun-Reporter<\/i>, and the Tribune<\/i>, and oh\u2014 (stumbles over words) We\u2019re the only<\/i> church, Harold, that has ever been written into the Congressional Record<\/i>.<\/p>\n

Dowler:<\/b> Yeah. Yeah. Are you aware now that Ralph Rath is just very very pleased about y\u2019all. I don\u2019t know whether you ever saw the article. He wrote an article uh, the week before this merger. It was in Wednesday the\u2014 whatever that date \u2014 I don\u2019t have my calendar in front of me \u2014\u00a0before the eighteenth, there was an article in the Tribune<\/i> that day uh, with a picture of uh, Bill and Art Gunn and myself, and a story about the fact that we were going to vote, and just mentioned Peoples Temple, but there was nothing about him, but Ralph uh\u2014 Ralph really has uh, an interest in Peoples Temple and is a\u2014 is just a beautiful person.<\/p>\n

Purifoy: <\/b>Would you give me the name again?<\/p>\n

Dowler:<\/b> Yeah, Ralph Rath. R-A-T-H.<\/p>\n

Purifoy: <\/b>Ralph Rath.<\/p>\n

Dowler:<\/b> He\u2019s the only religion writer in the whole Bay Area. He is with the Oakland Tribune<\/i>. Ralph is a former Roman Catholic priest.<\/p>\n

Purifoy: <\/b>Well, what did he have to say<\/i> about us? I\u2019m curious.<\/p>\n

Dowler:<\/b> Well, he didn\u2019t say too much about Peoples Temple in the\u2014 in the article<\/i>, he just said uh, I think he described Peoples Temple as an innovative congregation. I think that\u2019s his uh, sort of one-line description, but he\u2014 In our\u2014\u00a0You know, he spent over an hour talking with Bill and uh, Art and I that Monday prior to that article, and was very<\/i> very hopeful that this thing would go through, uh, \u2018cause he felt like it was the most exciting story that uh, that he\u2019d run into in\u2014 in\u2014 (Laughs) you know\u2014 He said it\u2019s the most exciting story he\u2019d discovered since he\u2019d been here. Uh\u2014 and uh\u2014 (Word unintelligible under interruption)<\/p>\n

Purifoy: <\/b>Does he\u2014 Did he indicate that he knew anything about us?<\/p>\n

Dowler:<\/b> Well, he\u2014\u00a0he apparently knows the name and that. He\u2019s\u2014 (Laughs) He said to me, he said, um\u2014 I said something about, I said, now Ralph, I want you to be very careful on that, uh, writing about Peoples Temple, I said, I\u2019m not interested in\u2014 nor capable<\/i> of speaking for them, and I\u2014\u00a0so I said, whatever kind of story you write, I\u2014 I want you to understand that uh, we\u2019re not going to be saying a lot about Peoples Temple, I said, you can\u2014\u00a0Whatever you write about this<\/i> church, uh, that\u2019s fine. He said, ohh, I\u2014 I know about Lester Kinsolving.<\/p>\n

Purifoy: <\/b>(Laughs) He did.<\/p>\n

Dowler:<\/b> (Laughs) He just\u2014 He\u2019s\u2014\u00a0He\u2019s a great big tall guy, and he just roared clear down to his shoes, and he said uh, yeah, and uh, uh, Brooks, uh, uh, oh, what\u2019s his name, the photographer that was with him said, what are you laugh\u2014\u00a0what\u2019s that all about? He said, oh, boy, he said uh, professional muckraker, he said, got a hold of Jim Jones, and he said, he\u2019s sorta taken it on. He<\/i> knew the whole story.<\/p>\n

Purifoy: <\/b>Uh-huh.<\/p>\n

Dowler:<\/b> He knew the whole story. He said, uh\u2014 He said\u2014 \u2018Cause I was just standing there, I\u2014 You know, I\u2014<\/p>\n

Purifoy: <\/b>Yeah.<\/p>\n

Dowler:<\/b> All I\u2019d ever talked to Ralph about was on the phone and uh, I\u2014 we\u2019ve had him on our TV program and that, but uh, he didn\u2019t know me as a\u2014 as a person that<\/i> well, but he knew the whole story about Kinsolving.<\/p>\n

Purifoy: <\/b>Well, what\u2019d he say about it?<\/p>\n

Dowler:<\/b> Oh, he\u2014 he said just exactly what you and I would say, that uh, you know, he said it\u2019s just yellow journalism, and uh, this guy makes his living by uh, throwing mud<\/i> on people and trying to destroy them, and he said one of his uh, people that he\u2019s after is Jim Jones and Peoples Temple, and uh\u2014 so uh, Ralph\u2019s position was that uh, if Kinsolving uh, disliked them that much, he said, it\u2019s bound to be a pretty good organization.<\/p>\n

Purifoy: <\/b>(Laughs)<\/p>\n

Dowler:<\/b> So he was kinda\u2014 (laughs) He\u2014 He knew the whole story about that, so uh, I told him, I said, well, if you know about Kinsolving, then you can understand that uh, Peoples Temple has had some pretty\u2014 some pretty rough days with that of publicity and that most of us, uh, are just not real gung-ho to have that kind of things written about us, and he said, you don\u2019t need to explain to me. He knew about that.<\/p>\n

Purifoy: <\/b>That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n

Dowler:<\/b> But uh, Ralph is a\u2014\u00a0is a very<\/i> interesting person in his own right, and I think, as I say, interested in\u2014\u00a0interested in Peoples Temple and particularly<\/i> interested in the uh, you know, the whole kind of uh, way in which Peoples Temple operates and that, so\u2014 So I\u2014 I would keep him in mind. He could be a\u2014 He could be a good friend for you, if you\u2019re ever interested in the Tribune<\/i> and that, but uh, but if you ever want a\u2014 a story about anything in the\u2014 in the Bay Area on that in the Tribune<\/i>, why, if you call Ralph and tell him you\u2019re from Peoples Temple and that, uh, my hunch is he\u2019ll\u2014\u00a0he\u2019ll see to it that he gets some time free to\u2014 to talk with you. So um\u2014 He\u2014<\/p>\n

Purifoy: <\/b>That sounds good.<\/p>\n

Dowler:<\/b> Yeah, I uh, he was uh, he wanted to know\u2014 He wanted me to call him first thing Monday morning and tell him, and he was disappointed the vote went the way it did, \u2018cause he was\u2014\u00a0he was certainly helping, \u2018cause he said, well, I\u2019d like to write more about Peoples Temple, and I said, look<\/i>, Ralph, if the thing goes through, then you can write about Peoples Temple, you\u2019ll have them right here, and you can\u2014\u00a0you\u2019ll have a real story to do, but I said, if you write about them now<\/i>, and this thing hasn\u2019t gone through<\/i>, uh, then you know, we could be writing stuff that isn\u2019t uh, isn\u2019t the fact. So I said, if I were you, I\u2019d hang loose and see if you have a story to do if uh\u2014 after this vote goes through.<\/p>\n

Purifoy: <\/b>Well, that\u2019s appreciative [appreciated], uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Dowler:<\/b> So uh\u2014<\/p>\n

Purifoy: <\/b>It was good that he didn\u2019t, be\u2014 because he coulda had a story<\/i> in it, and he didn\u2019t.<\/p>\n

Dowler:<\/b> Sure, sure. No, he\u2019s a\u2014 as I say, he\u2019s\u2014 he\u2019s a\u2014 he\u2019s a good man. He\u2019s a\u2014\u00a0He\u2019s a man worth knowing, and he\u2019s interested in\u2014\u00a0in doing\u2014\u00a0doing good\u2014 good stories and that, and\u2014\u00a0and is deeply<\/i> committed to religion. His<\/i>\u2014\u00a0His<\/i> comment to us<\/i> was, he was very appreciative, he said, you know, I get people telling me to write stories about uh, the churches<\/i>, and then, he said, the fact is, there aren\u2019t that many churches uh, in downtown area that are doing anything worth me writing a story about. So um\u2014 and uh, of course, that\u2019s been my<\/i> position. I\u2019m uh\u2014\u00a0I\u2019ve been talking that to my brothers there uh, for several years<\/i> now, saying uh, you gotta do something more than have a bake sale to think it\u2019s newsworthy. Uh, that isn\u2019t going to get the world\u2019s attention anymore. The world uh, is going to hell on an intercontinental ballistic missile, and the church, uh, you know, ought to be in the middle of that, saying something about uh\u2014\u00a0about how it\u2019s going, and\u2014 and doing something about it as well, so the world can understand it.<\/p>\n

Purifoy: <\/b>How did the people that were there the Sunday morning Jim was, how did they react to him?<\/p>\n

Dowler:<\/b> Oh, I think there was very fa\u2014 very favorable. The people who were opposed<\/i> to him, of course, uh, were\u2014\u00a0were not\u2014 you know, frankly, they didn\u2019t even spend their time listening. Uh, I think that\u2019s a fair statement. I think that uh, the\u2014\u00a0the\u2014\u00a0as I say, the handful of people who were opposed to him didn\u2019t uh\u2014\u00a0didn\u2019t take time to listen to what he had to say, they didn\u2019t\u2014 they couldn\u2019t afford<\/i> to really hear what he said, \u2018cause I think if they would really hear<\/i> what he said, it would be, you know, I\u2014 I\u2014 I think that\u2019s, you know\u2014\u00a0if you really listen\u2014 To listen means to submit to influence, and so, if you really listen to somebody like that, uh, you may have to do some new thinking about where you\u2019re coming from, and Jim was unbelievably candid and\u2014 and fresh<\/i> in his approach, and straightforward and uh, not evasive in any way, and uh, uh, I\u2014\u00a0We\u2014 We had\u2014\u00a0We had a number of people who were on the fence until that day, who said, “Wow.” (short laugh) Heck, it\u2019s not hard for me to make up my<\/i> mind. I know where\u2014 I know what I\u2019m<\/i> going to vote next week, so uh\u2014 so I think people who were uh, le\u2014\u00a0legitimately uh, hanging on the fence\u2014<\/p>\n

End of tape<\/strong><\/p>\n

Tape originally posted February 2003<\/b><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you. To return to the Tape Index, click here. To listen to MP3, click here. To read the Tape Summary, click here. Unidentified woman 1: \u20141 A Street, Apartment 2, San Francisco, California. I would do anything\u2014 […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":6,"featured_media":0,"parent":27291,"menu_order":478,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-27557","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27557","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/6"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=27557"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27557\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":60180,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27557\/revisions\/60180"}],"up":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27291"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=27557"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}