{"id":27560,"date":"2013-06-16T00:20:59","date_gmt":"2013-06-16T00:20:59","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/alternativejonestown.com\/?page_id=27560"},"modified":"2017-01-14T10:57:52","modified_gmt":"2017-01-14T18:57:52","slug":"q721","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=27560","title":{"rendered":"Q721 Transcript"},"content":{"rendered":"

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.<\/strong><\/i><\/p>\n

To return to the Tape Index, click here.<\/a>
\nTo read the Tape Summary, click here<\/a>. Listen to MP3<\/a>.<\/p>\n

Marvin Swinney: <\/strong>\u2013where no fallout would get to us or anything like this.<\/p>\n

Ronn Owens: <\/strong>Hmm.<\/p>\n

Swinney: <\/strong>Uh\u2013 He kept people in it more by fear uh, than anything else.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>When you mention fear, I mean, I don\u2019t mean to be in any way offensive when I make this statement, but I would assume that these are people who, for whatever their reasons, just wanted to believe everything he said and followed him almost blindly<\/em>. I mean, otherwise, that would not really hold much water, would it?<\/p>\n

Swinney: <\/strong>This is true.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Yeah. Is this part of the operation of the church as you see it? In other words, getting people who frankly from an intellectual standpoint are just followers.<\/p>\n

Swinney: <\/strong>Yes. Yes.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Do you consider it\u2013 Now when you\u2019re talking about the Temple itself, you got\u2013 you got family in Guyana right now. Who is there?<\/p>\n

Swinney: <\/strong>I have my uh\u2013 my mother [Helen Swinney], father [Cleave Swinney], brother [Timothy Swinney] and sister [Joyce Swinney Touchette] are over there.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Four people down in Guyana.<\/p>\n

Swinney: <\/strong>Uh, plus my sister\u2019s family [Touchette family]. I ha\u2013<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Well\u2013<\/p>\n

Swinney: <\/strong>Just practically all of my family is over there.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Now when Charles Garry was on, he had just come back from Guyana, and I remember specifically the word he used to describe it. He said, it was paradise<\/em>. Uh, why would you want to get people out of paradise?<\/p>\n

Swinney: <\/strong>Uh, what do you call paradise?<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>I don\u2019t call it that. I\u2019m giving you the word that he<\/em> came up with\u2013<\/p>\n

Swinney: <\/strong>No paradise\u2013<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>\u2013and he said it was paradise, I can give you part of a reason<\/em>, he said, that everybody was working with a form of unanimity, there was a spirit, there was a cooperation, the\u2013 he claimed that all of the charges that have been delineated either in New West<\/em> or in the Examiner<\/em>, there were all fallacious charges, there was nothing<\/em> going on except a lot of people who were very, very happy.<\/p>\n

Swinney: <\/strong>Well, my son [Donald] was over there for uh, right around a year, and that\u2019s not the story that I got uh\u2013 I got from him or other people that have returned since then.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Well, then, why don\u2019t you give us the story that you\u2019ve got?<\/p>\n

Swinney: <\/strong>Uh, they work from daylight to dark. They do not eat unless they produce a certain amount. They didn\u2019t see a doctor when he was sick. Uh\u2013 This is paradise? There\u2019s\u2013\u00a0There\u2019s other things too. There was uh\u2013 oh, man. I\u2019m kinda nervous right now, it\u2019s gonna take me a couple of seconds to settle down.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>No, just relax. I mean now, what\u2013 what other things are going on there?<\/p>\n

Swinney: <\/strong>The beatings, uh\u2013 Well, these\u2013\u00a0these will have to be (unintelligible word)\u2013<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Yeah, but now you see, you mentioned beatings. There\u2013 let\u2019s be specific and focus on that for a moment or two. Charles Garry said absolutely<\/em> not, not a single beating in the Peoples Temple. Now how does\u2013\u00a0how does somebody who has never been in it like myself, know how to differentiate? Here I\u2019ve got you, you sound thoroughly sincere. I had Charles Garry on, he seemed thoroughly sincere. How does one really ascertain the truth?<\/p>\n

Swinney: <\/strong>Char\u2013\u00a0Uh, Mr. Garry has never been in\u2013 into any of the meetings that were not planned. (Pause) When an\u2013 when an outside\u2013 somebody from the outside come to the meetings, the meetings changed. They were not as they are when\u2013 when there\u2019s nothing but members there. I have seen beatings. My son was in some of these beatings. In fact, he was one of the disciplinarians in the beatings. I\u2019ve seen people beat, I\u2019ve seen \u2018em beat down until they could not uh\u2013 they couldn\u2019t stand. And if<\/em> the person that was being disciplined got the better of the one that was doing the beating, then they would keep throwing fresh people in until the person that was being disciplined could no longer fight, and he was (unintelligible word) bloody. (Pause) And then afterwards, they would have to get up and say, \u201dThank you, Father.\u201d I\u2019ve seen\u2013 (Pause) I have seen\u2013 Uh, yeah, I\u2013 I uh\u2013 I was whipped one night\u2013<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>You were whipped<\/em>?<\/p>\n

Swinney: <\/strong>And my\u2013\u00a0Yes, sir.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>You\u2019re talk\u2013 Whipped with what?<\/p>\n

Swinney: <\/strong>With a belt.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Whipped with a belt by whom?<\/p>\n

Swinney: <\/strong>Uh, the man\u2019s name, uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Well, I don\u2019t need the specific name. Was it a Temple member, was it somebody involved in the uh\u2013\u00a0in the administration or what?<\/p>\n

Swinney: <\/strong>It was one of the Temple officials.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>One of the Temple officials. Now, you sound like a re\u2013 well, I was even going to say reasonably, I don\u2019t\u2013 I shouldn\u2019t even insult<\/em> you. You sound like an intelligent man. Why would you sit and stand for a beating?<\/p>\n

Swinney: <\/strong>After\u2013 After I\u2019d gotten out of the Temple, I\u2019ve asked myself this many, many times. Uh\u2013 The thing that I was beat for was, one of the busses which I used to uh, be in charge of, had a flat tire. I was called in the back room by some high officials of the\u2013\u00a0of the church, and said to save Father\u2019s face, would you please go up there and\u2013 and take the blame for this? And this is why I did it.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Whoa, boy. Marvin, if I can, let me put you on hold. We\u2019re going to do a couple of commercials. I want to keep you on a few more minutes, \u2018cuz there\u2019s a lot more I want to learn about the Peoples Temple from your perspective, so I\u2019ll get right back to you, okay?<\/p>\n

Swinney: <\/strong>Sure.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Okay. If any of you have specific questions for Marvin Swinney, uh, by all means, give just a call. This is more informational in nature, and I\u2013\u00a0I want to present it as kind of a point\u2013counterpoint to Charles Garry, but if there\u2019s a specific question or two that you have, do feel free to call and ask. In San Francisco, 478\u2013<\/p>\n

(Audio break-up)<\/p>\n

(Commercials)<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>We\u2019re talking with Marvin Swinney, ex-member of the Peoples Temple. We\u2019d just been talking about the beatings that took place. Well, let me try and\u2013 and present this from a logical standpoint. Let\u2019s assume I became a member of the Peoples Temple because I thought it was a good, fine, upstanding organization, all the reasons you mentioned before, and then I see these beatings go on, and I say, hey, this is not<\/em> for me. And maybe I might be a little bit afraid to express that point of view in an actual meeting<\/em>, but to me, it just becomes obvious, this is not what I joined the Temple for. What do I do then? Is it a matter of my just picking up and walking out? I mean, you\u2019re an ex-member. What does it take to be an ex-member of the church?<\/p>\n

Swinney: <\/strong>(Short laugh) It takes quite a bit. When we\u2013\u00a0when we [Marvin and Jackie Swinney] dropped out of the Temple, we were threatened uh, with physical harm, uh, you know. And uh, they had our son in Guyana, and uh, they threatened, you know, that\u2013 they indicated that we would not get him back unless we uh, met their requirements, which was, we had to leave the uh\u2013\u00a0leave the area. They would not deliver our son anyplace but in Miami, Florida, and we had to go down and pick him up. Uh, we here harassed, we had phone calls all through the night, we had committees come over all times of the night to wake us up, get us out of bed, and uh, talk at us for uh, hours. It\u2019s not easy to become an ex-member.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>I understand it\u2019s not easy, based on what you said, but you had mentioned, the first answer to the question that, oh, I had your son, and unless you cooperated, you wouldn\u2019t get your son back. Am I na\u00efve? That sounds to me like kidnapping or slavery<\/em>. Is that what you\u2019re implying?<\/p>\n

Swinney: <\/strong>In so many words. We had to leave the area. They said if\u2013 if our son come back to this area, which they was talking about, Mendocino County\u2013<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Uh-huh [Yes}.<\/p>\n

Swinney: <\/strong>\u2013they said there was a\u2013 He had a drug record, which he did not<\/em> have.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Um-hmm.<\/p>\n

Swinney: <\/strong>They said uh, that we would not be able to live<\/em> in that area. If<\/em> we wanted to be out of the church, we had to move uh\u2013 there was a distance of at least 500 miles away from the church.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Now how are they keeping these people in Guyana right now? I mean, again, you\u2019re almost implying kidnapping or slavery. If that\u2019s the case, I need two in\u2013\u00a0two pieces of information. Number one, what about the local authorities down there? To what extent are they cooperating? And secondly, what about authorities here? Do\u2013 Is there any jurisdiction whatsoever, or are ex-members like yourselves banding together, uh, if you really feel this is going on and has to be corrected, which obviously it does, if in fact that it\u2019s going on.<\/p>\n

Swinney: <\/strong>We are banding together in the sense that we\u2019re trying to help the people as they come out.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Uh-huh.<\/p>\n

Swinney: <\/strong>Uh, not only to get their heads straight again but any other way that we can help them, uh, financially, give them place to stay till they can get on their feet or whatever we can do to help them, is what we\u2019re trying to do. (unintelligible word) There is not a committee as such that does this. These are individuals that care about the people that are in there. And believe me, we do care about the ones that are in there. Uh, the best thing you could do is\u2013\u00a0is possibly make an announcement over the air and let some of the people that have come back talk<\/em> to you. Let them tell you what the conditions are over there. I\u2019ve talked to\u2013 I have talked to my son and he has told me. By the way, when he come back, the only thing that\u2013\u00a0the first<\/em> thing that we could get out of him was, I\u2019m here to work, I\u2013 I\u2013\u00a0you know, I\u2013 I want to go back to Guyana, I don\u2019t want to be here. That changed within about three or four hours after we had talked to him. And then<\/em> he told us that this is what they told him to say to us when he got back.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Well, let me ask you one last question if I can, then, Marvin, based on that. When Charles Garry was on, people called up and claimed that they really couldn\u2019t get in touch with family members or people that they knew that were in Guyana. And Charles Garry said that\u2019s absurd, there\u2019s very, very u\u2013 easy<\/em> communication, there\u2019s no problem whatsoever, and if there was a problem, all they had to do was call him and he would arrange for it, and yet in the note that I got mentioning\u2013 and the fact that you\u2019d be on the phone with us tonight, it said that you wanted to make an attempt to reach your family in Guyana. Now, are you not able to talk to them because you\u2019re an ex-Temple member, or is nobody<\/em> allowed to talk to people on Guyana?<\/p>\n

Swinney: <\/strong>Okay, there has been four people that I know of that has tried to get a hold of their relatives over there.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Right.<\/p>\n

Swinney: <\/strong>One person has been put off four\u2013 as many times as four\u2013 uh, four times. Uh, Mr. Garry said he would let them contact the people over there. Uh, one\u2013\u00a0one girl went in and\u2013 and uh, at an appointed date and time, and was told that there was too much traffic, that they had about three hours traffic in front of her, and she was sent home to await a call from uh, I\u2013 I imagine it was Garry, uh, telling her that, you know, she could talk to her parents. Well, they called her and said that uh, communications was bad. Uh, they\u2019ve used such excuses as sunspots, they couldn\u2019t make contact because of sunspots, heavy traffic, bad weather, and this is\u2013\u00a0Yeah, I could understand it, if it happened once or maybe even twice, but\u2013 but nobody<\/em> has been able to talk to anybody down there yet. Uh\u2013 And what I would like to do<\/em> is, I don\u2019t know, maybe go through you and uh\u2013 I\u2019m out here in South Carolina, I\u2013 I can\u2019t go through Garry\u2019s office from here, but possibly have you set up a uh\u2013 (Pause) a scheduled time that I could talk to my parents in Guyana.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Well. I\u2013 Yeah, I tell you what I would like to do, and that\u2019s specifically, yet, and it\u2019s part of what I wanted to save for the very end. I\u2013 If you and anybody else wants to get in touch with family members or the like in Guyana, I would ask you to do the following: Drop me a note specifically saying what time it would be convenient for you, and make it a good time in advance, obviously, what time, and I will forward the letters to Charles Garry. Now again, I have no way of really getting to the bottom on this Peoples Temple situation, I can\u2019t get to Guyana, and even if I could, I think I\u2019d probably be given a PR tour, it\u2019s the normal thing anywhere<\/em> that you go. But I do have enough respect for Charles Garry and he for me, that I have no doubt whatsoever that anything that I forward to him will be followed through on. So if you<\/em> want to drop me the note, or anyone<\/em> in the audience that is having trouble trying to get a hold of family, relatives or friends in Guyana, just send it to me directly, and I will personally turn it over to Charles Garry and follow through on it to make sure that the connection is made. (Pause) So Marvin, if I could ask you to do that, and anyone else, I think we might be able to make a couple of steps forward.<\/p>\n

Swinney: <\/strong>Well, you can rest assured that you will get a letter from us. It\u2019ll be in the mail tomorrow.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>All right. Do you know our address, and in case you do\u2013 in case other people in the audience don\u2019t, let me give it. Just drop it to Ronn Owens, KGO Radio, 277 Golden Gate Avenue, and that\u2019s San Francisco, California 94103. And again, I personally promise to turn that all over to Charles Garry and to follow through to make sure that the connections are made.<\/p>\n

Swinney: <\/strong>You will follow through on it.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>You\u2019ve got my word on 50,000 watts.<\/p>\n

Swinney: <\/strong>(Laughs)<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>All right, Marvin?<\/p>\n

Swinney: <\/strong>Couldn\u2019t ask for any more. (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>I will do it, and hopefully after you\u2019ve been able to talk to the family, we\u2019ll call you back again and have you on the air and have you explain what has happened since then, okay?<\/p>\n

Swinney: <\/strong>I would appreciate it.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>I will look for your letter and all the others. And Marvin, thanks for being on with us.<\/p>\n

Swinney: <\/strong>I thank you, sir.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>All right. That\u2019s Marvin Swinney, he is from South Carolina. And as you heard, he claims to have had trouble getting in touch with his family in Guyana. Anyone else in that boat, let\u2019s see if KGO can act as kind of a conduit in this matter, and if nothing else, put people together with people. Without getting that much into the politics<\/em> of the situation, just get the people together. Having done that, in a few moments, we will open up our phone lines to literally everything between now and one o\u2019clock. By no means feel restricted to the Peoples Temple. We can talk about a variety<\/em> of items. There\u2019s a great<\/em>, great deal of news. In fact, I tell you what I will do. I\u2019ll give you the telephone numbers and some (unintelligible word) right after this.<\/p>\n

(Commercials)<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>I was going to mention a whole bunch of topics, and I still<\/em> will do that, except there\u2019re an awful lot of people on the line who want to talk about the Peoples Temple, which is super. Interested in what you\u2019ve got to say. We\u2019ll start with line 6 in the East Bay. I\u2019m Ronn Owens, Radio 81. Good evening.<\/p>\n

Sandy Rozynko:<\/strong> Hi, uh, my name is Sandy.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Hi, Sandy.<\/p>\n

Rozynko:<\/strong> And uh, I am also an ex-member and I have a (unintelligible word) your broadcast and\u2013 with Charles Garry and he said that uh, to call him and he\u2019d arrange a interview with my family. My mother [Annie Joyce Rozynko] and my two brothers [Christian Rozynko and Michael Rozynko] are over there in Guyana, and I haven\u2019t talked to them or seen<\/em> them in two years. So uh\u2013 not because I haven\u2019t tried, because I have<\/em> and then the church just said they weren\u2019t here or kept putting me off, and I haven\u2019t ever seen them or talked<\/em> to them. So I took you up on your offer and I called Charles Garry, and he says he\u2019d arrange it, so uh\u2013 then a few days later, a church member called me back and she said, well, we\u2019re having trouble with our broadcast, sunspots, et cetera, and I\u2019ll call you back. On Tuesday<\/em> \u2013 and that was Sunday \u00ad\u2013 and she never called back. So on Friday after Tuesday, I called Charles\u2013 Charles Garry back again to find out what had happened, and uh, he got extremely angry with me. He went so far as to start yelling at me, even cursed<\/em> at me. He said he was tired of hearing my bitching, and he said uh, you know, uh, I\u2019ll take care of it, you know, and I just don\u2019t want to hear about it anymore, and then after that, after he slammed down the phone on me\u2013 you know, I was very shocked<\/em>, I mean, you know, here I haven\u2019t talked to my parents in two<\/em> years, he showed absolutely no<\/em> concern, in fact got extremely<\/em> angry, and he slammed down the phone, you know. (unintelligible word) three minutes later the church called me back, said uh, oh well, you know, we\u2019re still having trouble with our radio broadcast, so we don\u2019t know when we\u2019ll get through, uh, if we do, we\u2019ll call you. In other words, don\u2019t call us, we\u2019ll call you.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>And that\u2019s the way it was left?<\/p>\n

Rozynko:<\/strong> That\u2013 that\u2019s the way it was, and that\u2019s\u2013 that\u2019s all I\u2019ve got of\u2013 and the sad thing though is anybody else who has tried to contact them, they get the same answer.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>All right, Sandy, I want you to do exactly what I told Marvin to do. If you drop me a note, just a short one, but kind of explain what you just explained, what I will do is I\u2019ll see if I can either have lunch with Charles Garry or just go over to his offices myself, and as I said, I will personally see to it that everybody who wants to talk to a family member sees it, and I don\u2019t care about sunspots or broadcast difficulties or the like, we will follow through on that.<\/p>\n

Rozynko:<\/strong> Okay, thank you very much.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>(unintelligible word), and I promise it. Thank you, Sandy.<\/p>\n

Rozynko:<\/strong> Um-hmm.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>\u2018Cause that\u2013 I mean, that\u2013 that is kind of absurd. I want to get the bottom of that whole issue, and the (unintelligible word)\u2013 it\u2019s funny, you create your own impressions as you listen to the story and I\u2013 I don\u2019t want to start influencing you one way or the other, but it\u2019s interesting, because I have begun to formulate opinions on where the truth actually lies, and I honestly don\u2019t believe that Charles Garry is lying at all. I don\u2019t think the man is capable of it. I think he\u2019s a fine decent human being. But I\u2019m also<\/em> getting the impression that\u2013 I don\u2019t want to start saying where\u2019s there\u2019s smoke, there\u2019s fire, but suffice it to say there seems to be a lot of questionable evidence surrounding the Peoples Temple, but a lot of it which is not questionable at all\u2013 apparently things that are corroborated time and time again, and I am getting a very strong belief that either that somebody is lying to Charles Garry, or Charles Garry is getting, as Larry Houghton calls it, the Shirley MacLaine tour of China. In other words, you go down to Guyana, and everything is orchestrated. Marvin alluded to that before when he said Charles Garry has been<\/em> to the Peoples Temple many times, but every time he was there, it was orchestrated. Maybe that\u2019s\u2013 maybe that\u2019s where the truth lies. We shall see. But I\u2019m going to follow through because I\u2019m starting to take an interest in this. I really am. I\u2019m trying to figure out where\u2013 where somebody has gone wrong , and obviously somebody has. Line 2 in San Francisco, good evening.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Uh, good evening, uh, I just recently came back the agricultural project in South America.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Oh. Okay.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Yes, and I must say that everything that uh, has been written in the papers is all true. It ex\u2013 excrutiating punishment.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Are you another one of the ex-members, or what?<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Yes, I am.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Well, how did you become an ex-member?<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Well, after going to the agricultural project and staying there for a couple of months, I began to see uh, the true Jim Jones and the uh, true uh, relationship that he had with people, and I saw that there was uh, one-sided treatment in everything, and from all of that, I decided that it was time for me to go. The only way I did get back is because of my family members, fighting for me to come back.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Well, now, where were they fighting from? From down there or from up here.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Up here.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>From up here.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Right. Uh\u2013 But Jim was very furious at the fact that they were fighting for us to come back, and he had told us that the Ku Klux Klan were marching in the middle of the streets, and the racists were out to get us, and he threatened us with all kind of things to make us say we would stay there, and uh, we would just uh, live under those conditions.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Stay on the line, because I got a couple more questions to ask you. For example, logic would indicate that any organization \u2013 not only the Peoples Temple but any organization \u2013 would have to consistently come up with new members to replace those lost by (unintelligible word), people like yourself leaving or just general attrition. Now, if that\u2019s the case, the\u2013 the picture that\u2019s been created \u2013 at least verbally, the picture that\u2019s been created to our audience \u2013 is that Jim Jones and the Peoples Temple are real super in the beginning, and then they turn sour<\/em>. How can they turn sour on some, while at the same time, I have to assume, they have to present that sweet picture to new people that are coming in?<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Well, at this time, they are not encouraging new members. They\u2019re maintaining their old members.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Oh, I see. And no recruitment whatsoever.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> No recruitment whatsoever.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>All right, another question. How do you wind up in Guyana? I mean, did they\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Well, what\u2013 the way they do it is, they send you to Florida first and you catch an airlines from there over to Guyana.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Yeah, no, I\u2019m not talking specifically about the physical geography, I mean, what set of circumstances motivated you to leave the United States and go down to Guyana? How long a period of time did you really intend to stay? Well, what was your whole purpose and what motivated you to go down there?<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Well, uh, they came in the\u2013 at the spur of the moment, and told us that we were needed over there, our energy was needed over there to help build this agricultural project.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Uh-huh.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> And they made it sound as though it was a dream land. Pictures were taken of beautiful flowers, exotic uh, plants and fruits and everything\u2013<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>When was this, by the way?<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Uh, this was about four months ago.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Right.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> I was there in March\u2013 and uh, March to June. And uh, beautiful flowers were shown and fruits and everything. And it just looked like a Garden of Eden. But little did we know that those pictures and everything were not<\/em> of the agricultural project but of other scenery. And so, what happened is, through us only seeing pictures, not knowing of any books that were published, which there weren\u2019t very many published on this little agricultural setting of Guyana, we uh, went over there. We were told that we would only be there for uh, a short while, maybe a year or two, until conditions got better over here<\/em>, but after we got over there, he told us he had no intentions of us ever coming back to this place.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>He told<\/em> you that.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Yes, he did.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Were you virtual prisoners at the time, uh?<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Yes, we were. All letters, mail, was censored, we couldn\u2019t make any phone calls, I ran for blocks in order to get a phone call back over to the States to my family, and he was furious when he found out.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>(Pause) Not a pleasant picture. Not at all. I appreciate your call, because again, we\u2019re presenting as balanced a program and perspective as we possibly can, and it\u2019s callers like you that help us do that.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Thank you.<\/p>\n

Woman 1:<\/strong> Thank you.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>All right. We\u2019re hearing a bad<\/em> story about the Peoples Temple, now. If the other side wishes to talk, please<\/em>, by all means, no restrictions whatsoever on your participation. Just pick up a phone and call. In San Francisco, we\u2019re at 478-3456, in San Jose, at 272-1233. Uh, one other item might be of interest. The very first time that we had Phil Tracy on, the investigative reporter for New West<\/em> Magazine, Phil made some strong statements, very much along the line of this last caller, uh, and related them to the Reverend Jim Jones, and as a result, we sent him a letter and we said, look, uh, we did about an hour of programming and you were very, very strongly attacked. By all means, we invite you to come back<\/em> on the program and perhaps express your point of view. And this was I believe<\/em> while he was still in San Francisco, or was visiting or the like, I\u2019m not really sure. However, we got absolutely no response to that request, so it\u2019s not as if we don\u2019t want<\/em> the Reverend Jones on. I would say he was probably my\u2013 my third<\/em> choice, he\u2019d be my third choice right now to have as a guest, with Richard Nixon first, and the Reverend Moon second.<\/p>\n

(Commercials)<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Owens:<\/strong> \u2013be amazed with that. Line 5 in the East Bay, I\u2019m Ronn Owens, Radio 81, good evening.<\/p>\n

Mickey Touchette:<\/strong> Hi, my name is Mickey.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Hi.<\/p>\n

Touchette:<\/strong> Uh, I just wanted you to know that, I didn\u2019t find uh, Ronn Owens to be as reliable as he said that Garry\u2013 (stumbles over words). I\u2019m sorry, Ronn, I meant to say, I\u2013 I didn\u2019t find Charles Garry to be as reliable as a uh\u2013 a\u2013 as a contact to Guyana as what I thought he would be. I uh, had an appointment to uh, talk to Guyana on Saturday, and uh, I\u2013 when I went to his office, I was met with three other Peoples Temple members there uh, uh\u2013 I couldn\u2019t get through to Guyana. At first I was told that I had a\u2013 I was put on a waiting list that was three pages long. And I had made this appointment with Charles Garry two weeks prior to this, uh, because of the uh\u2013 of the last interview that you gave him a month ago.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Right.<\/p>\n

Touchette:<\/strong> And uh, uh\u2013\u00a0So then uh, one of the Peoples Temple members, Marceline Jones, got on the radio and said, give her priority, let her talk. And then the radioman, uh, that was at the Temple said, well, there\u2019s too much uh, interference, we can\u2019t get through. I\u2019m trying to get through on Morse code. So I was told to call back in a few hours, which I did, and I was told again, there was too much interference. I called again today at two o\u2019clock and I was told there was too much interference, uh, so uh\u2013 Uh, there needs to be, I don\u2019t know, some other (unintelligible under Owens)<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Well, no, there\u2013 there doesn\u2019t have to be another arrangement, Mickey, that\u2019s part of why I said what I said when I was talking to Marvin. I want you<\/em> to do the same thing in terms of a letter, and let me tell you exactly what I intend to do with them. I\u2019ll get the letters \u2013 and let\u2019s assume I get five, ten, I have no idea how many I will get \u2013\u00a0but what I will do then is I\u2019m going to make my own appointment with Charles Garry and I\u2019m going to just say, c\u2019mon, Chuck, let\u2019s level this whole thing together. I\u2019ve got people that are wanting to talk to family members in Guyana, and they feel that they\u2019ve got every reason to be able to talk, because you promised it on my program on KGO. As a result of that, what I would like to see is the follow-through that, not only the calls go through, but that there be no Peoples Temper\u2013\u00a0Temple memble\u2013 (laughs) I can\u2019t get it out \u2013 Peoples Temple members around at the time. As I said, let me handle it from that\u2013 from that standpoint. I doubt very, very seriously that they\u2019re going to try and hit me with sunspots or the like. If they do, I will raise holy hell right here on the air.<\/p>\n

Touchette:<\/strong> Yeah, that\u2019s great.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>That\u2019s the only way I can do it, because again, I\u2019ve tried to remain as\u2013 as objective as possible in the whole thing, and I will continue to do so, but if I find that people\u2019re going give me<\/em> the stall, or give me<\/em> the runaround, I think you can pretty well reassured I\u2019ll gripe about it.<\/p>\n

Touchette:<\/strong> Yeah. I think your term of calling those people \u201cprisoners\u201d was a very\u2013\u00a0it was a good one.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Well, it\u2019s the only\u2013\u00a0Again, that\u2019s the way it was described to<\/em> me. That\u2019s not my saying that they are<\/em>. It just\u2013 The way that the verbal picture was painted<\/em>, it certainly appeared that way.<\/p>\n

Touchette:<\/strong> Yeah. As far as we can tell, they had no contact of the United States, so that they\u2019re not getting uh, uh, the (stumbles over words)\u2013 they\u2019re not getting comments from their family, who could uh, talk to them as\u2013 as\u2013 more honestly probably than anyone else could. That\u2019s who uh, you know, Jones is\u2013 Jim Jones is making sure that that distance is kept as far away as possible. Uh\u2013 There\u2019s another woman here with me who would like to also speak to you.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Yeah, sure.<\/p>\n

Touchette:<\/strong> All right?<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Sure.<\/p>\n

Neva Sly:<\/strong> Yes, Ronn, I spoke to you before when uh, Mr. Garry was on.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Right?<\/p>\n

Sly:<\/strong> And uh, my name\u2019s Neva. I also made contact with Mr. Garry, trying to contact my son, who\u2019s in Guyana, and uh, I received two letters from Mark [Sly] saying he was very happy, the letters were identical with the exception of uh, one phrase in\u2013 or one sentence in one of the letters, and the young lady you just spoke to that just came back from Guyana uh, when I asked her how Mark was doing, she said they\u2019re having a terrible time with him. And I said, what do you mean? And she said, he hates it over there, Neva, and he\u2019s being (unintelligible word) and he\u2019s being beaten. And uh, I called Mr. Garry today, uh, for the second time asking to make contact, because if only I could just talk to Mark, maybe I could get him to cool it, just\u2013 at least until we can finish our legal means to get him home. And uh, Mr. Garry said he would call me back and he never did, he said they were having trouble making contact because of the weather and what-have-you. So I feel like Mickey does, I\u2013 I really don\u2019t feel he\u2019s the reliable contact that we think. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s because he is being deceptive as much as that he is being deceived.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Yeah, well, that\u2013 that is the impression that seems to be formulating in the back of my own mind. Neva, I\u2019ll ask you to do the same thing again. Drop me a note, I\u2019m gonna wait, let\u2019s say about a week, within a week I should get every letter or note from people that want contact, and let me\u2013 let me take it from there and also let people in the audience know exactly what the progress is, because again, it\u2013 it seems fairly obvious to me, in terms of some of the rebuttal that has appeared in the paper to some of the articles that have\u2013 that have depicted life in Guyana to be anything less than idyllic, it appears to me that the Peoples Temple would then be sensitive to that kind of public response, and all I intend to do with it \u2013 and use the microphone for it \u2013 is just to present the truth<\/em>. So if as a result of these letters, I\u2019m able to put everybody in contact with their family, great, I\u2019ll come behind the mike and I\u2019ll say that. If conversely, I\u2013 I think there\u2019s a runaround, I\u2019ll say that too, and I will exert as much pressure as I can.<\/p>\n

Sly:<\/strong> I appreciate that very much.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>It\u2019ll be my pleasure. I\u2019ll look forward to your letter.<\/p>\n

Sly:<\/strong> Thank you.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Thank you. And that was Neva and Mickey calling from the East Bay at 832-9707. We continue. First, a question\u2013<\/p>\n

(Commercials) (tape edit) (Commercial) (tape edit)<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>\u2013Radio 81, good evening.<\/p>\n

Sherwin Harris:<\/strong> Hello?<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Hi.<\/p>\n

Harris:<\/strong> Yeah, I\u2019ve been waiting to talk to you, Ronn.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Good.<\/p>\n

Harris:<\/strong> Been listening. Uh, I also have had contact with Charles Garry, and my daughter [Liane Harris] is in Guyana, and uh, she\u2019s been involved with Peoples Temple for a number of years, since she was small. And so I guess through those years, I\u2019ve had an opportunity to\u2013 just through that to be in contact with them. I\u2019m not an ex-member, or anything of that nature. And I\u2013 there\u2019s just something that seems past the mark about the whole experience with them. I mean, it\u2013 in the beginning years, it was like nobody knew anything about them, uh, they were very mysterious about their meetings and things like that, but nobody could say anything bad<\/em> about them, type of thing. But the\u2013 the bottom line<\/em> is, for all of those years, and I\u2013 I guess it\u2019s been about ten years now, in spite of my efforts and my family\u2019s efforts, we\u2019ve really been out of touch<\/em> with her. And, you know, they were only up in Ukiah. We had occasion to go there quite a bit, and you know, we\u2019d see her for brief periods, but for the last five<\/em> years, when they were in Redwood Valley, we never even knew where they lived. And there was really no reason<\/em> for that, other than whatever was going on with this group. Then they moved down in, oh, I\u2019d say in February of this year to San Francisco. And I thought, well, great, now\u2019s the chance to really, you know, you know, maintain or re\u2013 re-establish a relationship. And uh, inside of a week of communicating that thought to her, uh, she was talking to me on the phone one night, telling me how great City College was, and uh, before the phone conversation had finished<\/em>, she said, oh by the way, I\u2019m\u2013 but I\u2019m quitting it all and I\u2019m going to Guyana.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Oh, by the way? (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Harris:<\/strong> By the way.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Yeah!<\/p>\n

Harris:<\/strong> She said, gee, that\u2019s not really what I wanted to tell you, \u2018cause she was so excited about starting school. She said, but, oh no, well, she said, but\u2013 she said, I\u2013 But no, she didn\u2019t say that, I\u2019m sorry. Take that back, Ronn. She said\u2013 what she said was, she had a chance to travel to New York and then to South America with a family, who\u2019s going to pay her expenses. Not a word was said about Guyana, or missions, or anything of this nature. Uh, later on, I found out, yeah, she\u2019s in Guyana on part of this mission and so on and so forth, and it was just kind of a\u2013 another incident in a series of things where I was told a lie when there was no necessity<\/em> for it. I thought, well, okay, some\u2013 you know, sometimes uh\u2013 (coughs) you know, there can be a breakdown in communications as a matter of course, but it doesn\u2019t extend only to me, it extended to my mother \u2013 her grandmother \u2013\u00a0and uh, you know, my brothers, her uncles, and uh, it\u2019s not just isolated. In other words, nobody knows what\u2019s going on. It\u2019s like shrouded in mystery. Uh, I\u2019ve received since some of their literature, and in it, they speak of, well, it was persecution here and persecution there and therefo\u2013 it\u2019s almost as if they need to create their enemies to maintain that air.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Well, the impression that\u2019s been created, at least during this hour, is that a situation is presented to the members of the Peoples Temple down in Guyana indicating how awful life is up here, and that is designed, if nothing else, to reinforce the basic concepts behind the Temple. I mean, at least, that\u2013 that\u2019s an outsider\u2019s view as I perceive it, at least during this hour.<\/p>\n

Harris:<\/strong> I\u2019m virtually an outsider\u2013<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n

Harris:<\/strong> \u2013except for the\u2013 as well, except for the fact that, you know, there\u2019s my daughter<\/em>, and I do want to maintain contact with her, I want to know that she\u2019s well<\/em>. I went to Charles Garry\u2019s office as\u2013\u00a0a few months ago. I don\u2019t know uh, it mu\u2013 it was probably before\u2013 I think it was just after the articles in the Chronicle<\/em> appeared.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Right.<\/p>\n

Harris:<\/strong> And that really<\/em> alarmed me, when they too\u2013 You know, then the articles, they talked about beatings and things of this nature. But wait a minute, what\u2019s going on. So, they referred me\u2013 I called over there and I\u2013 of course, I didn\u2019t\u2013 uh, you know, \u00a0I didn\u2019t get any reaction and uh\u2013 other than, look, if you got a problem, talk to Charles Garry. And I think that\u2019s when he first came on the scene, or was first asked to represent them. So I went through his office, and he was very kind to me, he s\u2013 he arranged to have pictures of\u2013 from Guyana showed to me, and some of them were pictures of my daughter, and she\u2019s teaching in the school there. And uh, they looked fine, uh\u2013 again\u2013 and uh, I was a little concerned because he put a lot of effort in telling me how happy<\/em> she apparently was as a result of the picture, and we all know what that<\/em> is, I mean, what\u2013 what can you tell from a picture. At that instant the picture was taken, she wasn\u2019t\u2013\u00a0you know, she was smiling.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Yeah, for all you know, they coulda said, you can leave (laughs), and that\u2019s what brought on the smile.<\/p>\n

Harris:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019m\u2013 I\u2019m not going to get try to get paranoid on it (unintelligible under Owens)<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Yeah. Yeah.<\/p>\n

Harris:<\/strong> I\u2019m\u2013 All\u2013 All\u2013 As far as I can go is to say I\u2019m really concerned. I said, well, look, I would really<\/em> like to communicate with my daughter someway or another. Said, well, gee, people are going all the time, we\u2019ll take a letter. I thought, well, I have her P.O. box to write there, so I will write, and\u2013 and if\u2013 when you are in touch with her, would you please tell her to write me<\/em>, that I just want to be in touch. And so I sent a letter off, and this is probably two months ago. And I\u2019ve since phoned, I\u2019ve spoken to Marceline Jones, and she said, oh yes, I understand how you feel, you know, because, you know, I\u2013\u00a0my sons are there and I know how it is, and I\u2019ll sure ask and be sure and tell her to write you. I\u2019ve received nothing. Not one word.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Okay. I will ask you to do the same. In fact, I\u2019m going to see if I can take perhaps one more call on the Peoples Temple, but I\u2019m giving you all the same advice, because I will do my best to be kind of the go-between, and I\u2019m sure we\u2019ll get a good resolution.<\/p>\n

Harris:<\/strong> Well, let\u2013 let me ask you this.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Sure, go ahead.<\/p>\n

Harris:<\/strong> Uh, I\u2013 I really would appreciate if you stayed with it.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>I have every intention of doing so, because I\u2019m at a point now where I\u2019ve got a guest that I have respected for years, and I have no desire to lose that respect, and I doubt he wants to see that respect lost. In addition to which, purely from a business standpoint, he is the representative of the Reverend Jones and the Temple. And I\u2019ve also got a lot of words<\/em> being said on both sides on 50,000 watts of public airwaves, and as a result, I think it\u2019s a responsibility to follow it through, and I have every intention of it, which is why I\u2019m trying to see if we can just get a main channeling source, if I could, Marvin\u2019s letters and Sandy\u2019s and Neva\u2019s and yours and everyone else\u2019s, and put them together. I have a feeling that perhaps together<\/em>, we can work on the whole thing. I\u2013 I can tell you that Charles Garry will not con me, because I\u2013 first of all, I don\u2019t think he will want to, and secondly, I don\u2019t think it\u2019s his nature, and thirdly, he couldn\u2019t get away with it.<\/p>\n

Harris:<\/strong> Yeah, I agree, but it begins to look like uh, at best, he may have been duped.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Well, if he<\/em> has been duped, then he will either admit it himself, and I\u2019ll\u2013 I\u2019ll mention it on the air, if that\u2019s the impression that I come up with. But I promise you, I will follow it through.<\/p>\n

Harris:<\/strong> You know, from my<\/em> standpoint, I\u2019m looking at this vast distance, it\u2019s over 4000 miles to Guyana.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Sure.<\/p>\n

Harris:<\/strong> Uh\u2013 And I\u2019m thinking, you know, that the mission itself appears to be in a very remote spot. It\u2019s a\u2013\u00a0It\u2019s up some river, uh, uh, quite a ways out of town, and the whole situation, really\u2013 It\u2019s like uh\u2013 I would like to see people who are totally objective go there and be there for long enough, you know, to really bring back an objective report.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>Well, that\u2019s just it. I mean, again, the impression that I had gotten is quite possibly Charles Garry was given the kind of Shirley MacLaine tour, as Larry calls it\u2013<\/p>\n

Harris:<\/strong> \u2013and he wasn\u2019t there long enough.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>\u2013and wasn\u2019t there long enough to make that kind of a\u2013\u00a0a\u2013 the total determination. Let\u2013 let me conclude it at that point, okay?<\/p>\n

Harris:<\/strong> Okay, Ronn, and I\u2019ll\u2013 and I\u2019ll send you a note to put my name on that list (unintelligible word under Owens) to call Charles Garry.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>You\u2019ll send it\u2013 Well, exactly, but let me at least get in touch with<\/em> Garry with as many<\/em> people as I can, because I think the more numbers of letters that I get of people who say, look, I\u2019ve tried to get in touch either directly or through Charles Garry\u2019s office and I\u2019ve gotten no satisfaction, the more impressive my<\/em> arguments will be when I\u2019m able to sit down with him.<\/p>\n

Harris:<\/strong> Okay, Ronn. Goodbye.<\/p>\n

Owens: <\/strong>All right. Thank you. And let us conclude the Peoples Temple discussion on that basis, because we\u2019ve only got one more hour, and I would like to open up the phones to general conversation about a lot of news things that have happened in the last few days. So we can summarize it by simply saying, if you have tried to get in touch with a Peoples uh\u2013 Peoples Temple member of your family or a relative or a friend, uh, no matter what the reason, you have been unable to do so and you feel that somewhere along the line, there\u2019s either been some hanky-panky or some stalling or whatever, drop a note to Ronn Owens, KGO, San Francisco. And if you want the specifics, it\u2019s Ronn Owens, KGO Radio, 277 Golden Gate Avenue, San Francisco 94102, but even Ronn Owens, KGO Radio, San Francisco, to get the zip, 94102, That\u2019ll reach me. And let\u2019s just say within ten days \u2013 okay? \u2013 within ten days, I want to make sure I get the letter, and at that point, I\u2019ll<\/em> contact Charles Garry, see if we can serve it together, and hopefully resolve the whole matter in a beautiful and solid fashion, and I will report to the audience.<\/p>\n

Here\u2019s another great voice for you to listen to.<\/p>\n

(Commercial)<\/p>\n

End of tape.<\/strong><\/p>\n

Tape originally posted May 2013<\/b><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you. To return to the Tape Index, click here. To read the Tape Summary, click here. Listen to MP3. Marvin Swinney: \u2013where no fallout would get to us or anything like this. Ronn Owens: Hmm. Swinney: Uh\u2013 […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":6,"featured_media":0,"parent":27291,"menu_order":481,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-27560","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27560","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/6"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=27560"}],"version-history":[{"count":6,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27560\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":68682,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27560\/revisions\/68682"}],"up":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27291"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=27560"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}