{"id":60632,"date":"2014-07-02T20:15:46","date_gmt":"2014-07-02T20:15:46","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=60632"},"modified":"2019-02-13T10:12:37","modified_gmt":"2019-02-13T18:12:37","slug":"q393-transcript","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=60632","title":{"rendered":"Q393 Transcript"},"content":{"rendered":"

If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.<\/strong><\/i><\/p>\n

To return to the Tape Index, click here<\/a>. Listen to MP3 (Pt. 1<\/a>, Pt. 2<\/a>).
\nTo read the Tape Summary, click here<\/a>.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Tuesday news. Remember, we\u2019re having observers now watching work that will come up in the Peoples Forum this evening, Peoples Forum rally, so be sure you are prepared in all phases, that you know well the test on the tape, go back and review it, on how to greet guests, and also that you know something about [Zbigniew] Brzezinski and the Trilateral Commission. They so appallingly (pause) wreak turmoil all over Eu\u2013 all over the world with our tax dollars.<\/p>\n

The Rhodesian Prime Minister Ian Smith received his appeal for American support for his plan to establish black majority rule (unintelligible word) Rhodesia. Again, US has (unintelligible word) another sell-out, showing that they are thoroughly anti-black. Smith, uh, on Capitol Hill\u2013 call on Capitol Hill\u2013 (unintelligible word) He called a Capitol Hill news conference and said an internal settlement of peace isn\u2019t\u2013 is possible if\u2013 is not possible without U.S. help, and uh, it\u2013 it would be very difficult if US could not help, and they went ahead trying for a peaceful settlement, that a lot of Rhodesians would be murdered in the process. Meaning black, of course. Smith and\u2013 and\u2013 and another member of the Rhodesian fascist government, which U.S.A. has nerve enough to let come to Washington and receive them as guests of state, and the blacks should be marching and demonstrating in every city because of this. Anyway, Rhodesian uh, Prime Minister Smith met with the US Senators who had arranged for the visit. Meanwhile, (pause) a white liberal opposition group from Rhodesia has sent a delegation to the United States to urge an all-parties conference as the only solution to this\u2013 uh, the conflict. But Ian Smith is greatly admired amongst the conservative and moderate sections of US politics, congressmen and senators, which are indeed the vast majority these days. Anyway, the white liberals from Rhodesia want all parties to be involved as the only solution to the conflict, details of Rhodesia\u2019s newly-announced plans for abolishing racial discrimination are expected to be announced by the end of the week. The announcement expected to follow a\u2013 make a\u2013 a meeting of the interim fascist government, upheld by US imperialism, violation of US law. When the law, constitution said there could be a ban on all trade, military hardware and so forth, but they said they wouldn\u2019t send military hardware to the Union of South Africa. They said they wouldn\u2019t do it to Israel. But they\u2019re doing it all the time, violating our trust as American citizens and making us all guilty by using our tax dollars. The fascist government of Ian S\u2013 Ian Smith\u2019s executive council will consider with uh\u2013 coincide with the visit of Prime Minister Smith and a council member (pause) (unintelligible word) to the United States. Charges\u2013 changes are expected to eliminate race categories\u2013 white residential areas, hospitals and schools. The now regulations existing are expected to desegregate white urban area\u2019s hospitals and more schools, but these are vain promises of a fascist bi\u2013 bigot. <\/p>\n

The Lebanese president [Elias Sarkis] today flew to Saudi Arabia to continue his discussions with Arab leaders on the situation in Beirut, one of the most beautiful capitals \u2013 once \u2013 in the world. Now it\u2019s be\u2013 been torn to hell by Christian fascists. After four days of talks in Damascus with the Syria\u2013 Syrian president [Hafez Al-Assad] \u2013 Syria, as you know, is an ally of the Soviet Union \u2013 both leaders called for an urgent conference of Arab co\u2013 countries to deal with the Lebanese crisis. Meanwhile, sporadic sniper fire continues in Beirut between Syrian leftists, Czech\u2013 (pause) uh, of using Czechoslovakian weapons, apparently, and uh\u2013 and the Arabs\u2019 peace-keeping forces\u2013 so-called, that are really nothing but Christian fascists, and a Christian Nazi rightwing Phalangist element put it in the southern part of Lebanon in power, where Israel aggressively entered the territory of Leban\u2013 Lebanon has refused to (unintelligible word) the return the land to the people. But in general, the ceasefire arranged over the weekend expe\u2013 uh, expects\u2013 it appears to be calm for the time being. <\/p>\n

[U.S. President Jimmy] Carter is expected to open to be Israeli-Egyptian peace talks at the White House this Thursday. Administration officials say that following the opening ceremonies, the negotiations will shift across the street to the official US general residence. US Secretary of State Cyrus Vance will head the US delegation. Members of the Israeli delegation will be Foreign Minister Moshe Dayan, long known for his neo-fascist activities, and Defense Minister [Ezer] Weizman, who is on his way to the United States, also known for his rightwing Zionist and neo-fascist views. To join Mr. Dayan for the talks earlier today, [U.S. Vice President Walter] Mondale referred to the Camp David Accords in his address to the United Nations General Assembly. He said the Israeli-Egyptian peace treaty will make the\u2013 mark the beginning of a new era in the Middle East, and called on al\u2013 all of the Middle East countries to join the peace process. Mr. Dayan said his country does not wish to control the activities of the Arabs \u2013 very nice for him to say that, very nice to pass those lies and Mondale to back this mess up, when they never even brought Jordan into it, and part of her torri\u2013 territory, the West Bank, has been conquered by the Israelis, and the Gaza Strip by Egypt, taken away from Egypt by Israeli, and all of south Lebanon. And even the Saudi Arabians, the oil-rich conservatives, are getting very suspicious, turning more and more away from the U.S.A. Anyway, he\u2019s uh\u2013 the foreign minister of the Israeli cabinet said the Arabs\u2013 they had no uh, (Pause) they did not wish to control the activities of the Arabs on the West Bank of the Jordan\u2013 of the Jordan River and in the Gaza Strip. The usual propaganda lies. He said that Jerusalem to the Israelis is the one and only capital of Israel, and that all religious communities should control their own holy places. But it\u2019s also the holy place of the Muslims<\/em>, and they took it away from them. Meanwhile, Egyptian President (pause) Anwar Sadat is in Cairo, the other members of the delegation to the peace talks and\u2013 on schedule to leave for Washington today. Members of the Egyptian delegation in defense n\u2013 (stumbles over words) [Kamal Hassan Ali] the Defence Minister, as I said, and the acting foreign minister [Boutros Boutros-Ghali]. <\/p>\n

The boot\u2013 The British government today denied reports that it plans to send British troops, missiles\u2013 missiles, (unintelligible word) missiles and fighter planes to Zambia. London\u2019s Daily Telegraph<\/em> says the plan to send a battalion-size British force to Zambia was worked out in a meeting last month in Nigeria between the British prime minister [James Callaghan] and the Zambian president. The newspaper reports that the Zambian president [Kenneth David] Kaunda, who has been a strong nationalist and liberationist in uh, Africa, asked for the British military strong force to protect Zambia against any attack from the Rhodesian forces. Seems like they split a policy between Britain, who\u2019s usually a lackey of U.S.A. and Fortress America, US imperialist fascist capital\u2013 finance capitalism, because this is more and more being brought out in the news from Sweden and Voice of Netherlands, uh, BBC, that there was truth that they had been sending\u2013 intending to send uh, aid to Zambia. Also, remaining ready to play a role in Rhodesia as in settlement\u2013 in the settlement, the British Foreign Office today mentioned that British troops for South Africa were already in the contest\u2013 content of the UN peace-keeping force for Africa, as outlogged by\u2013 as outlined by Foreign Secretary David Owen, that the US (unintelligible word)\u2013 <\/p>\n

Uh, I would advise listening, because examination is due tonight. And remember ec\u2013 there\u2019s extra time for those that do not pass the exam begins the first of five days. <\/p>\n

Mr. Owens\u2019 talk\u2013 He\u2013 he told in the\u2013 in his talk, he told the United Gen\u2013 United Nations General Assembly last month that Britain was prepared to participate in a possible UN peace force recommended in the African uh, Anglo settlement, to supervise Rhodesians\u2019 transition to independence. This is different view than taken by the hard line monopoly capitalists of the U.S.A. that rule the world. <\/p>\n

Turkey\u2019s leftists we\u2013 were killed and wounded Monday, as gunmen raided their\u2013 (pause) their apartment. All 17 were members of the leftwing Labor Party. They were meeting in the apartment when gunmen broke in from the secret police of Turkey. Again, our tax dollars, because just last week, Carter lifted the ban on arms to the fascist regime of Turkey. He uses hypocritical policies on human rights, oughta make you all sick, not once want to be under the government of the United States, or think even about the United States. The one survivor said the gunmen were members of a rightist terrorist gang backed by the fascist government. The gunmen (Pause) shot four of the party members to death in one apartment, and then abducted the others. Their bodies were later found by police on the highway to Istanbul. All of the 17 leftists were in their\u2013 their mid-20s. A terrible tragic loss, uh, and it was US guns, our tax dollars that helped pay for that, because just last week, US lifted the ban to Turkey. No nation will trade, give guns to Turkey because of her outright fascist depotism, but yes, U.S.A. always comes in. No money for health, education, welfare, no money for assistance for the poor, no money for anything, schools, but always plenty of money for murderers and fascist dictators. Turkish officials said the attack was (pause) over the most heinous event in a uh\u2013 a long wave of police violence that has claimed more than 300 lives. <\/p>\n

A group of Dutch extremists has seized an Amsterdam office of Amnesty International, and at least two people ca\u2013 are reportedly being held hostage. A spokesman for the London-based organization said the (Pause) demanding better (unintelligible fragment)\u2013 treatment for the prisons\u2013 prisoners who have re\u2013 political prisoners in Holland, which is, uh, like the U.S.A., a member of NATO, and they want better treatment for the uh\u2013 the so\u2013 three West German gunmen who had been recently attacked and arrested for their revolutionary activities, and they\u2019re now serving sentences in Holland. The so-called terrorists or activists, whatever position you wish to take, claim to be members of the Dutch Red Defense Organization, a little-known underground but active and terribly uh, successful group. Eyewitnesses say police and the\u2013 at the scene are acting cautiously, trying not to provoke the ex\u2013 extremists and to avoid over-dramatizing the situation. <\/p>\n

Reports from Tehran, Iran, say Shah of Iran\u2019s [Reza Pahlavi] government will be making in\u2013 into\u2013 making cuts in s\u2013 defense spending and nuclear power development in order to pay ba\u2013 play\u2013 pay\u2013 raise hikes for striking government workers. They\u2019re having a lot of trouble economically so they\u2019re going to cut back on some of their warfare<\/em> plans. They have<\/em> to. The people have practically thrown him out. There\u2019s rebellion in every town. Our officials said that reduction in spending in\u2013 is planned, they did not mention specific programs. Employees in the state-owned industry, government departments, radio and television and communications, have left their jobs. There\u2019s nothing but rebellion there, and that\u2019s amazing, because when you get caught for rebellion in that country, you get automatic death.<\/p>\n

I would like to speak now a point of view on the red versus expert dialogue that has flared, again with the most recent emphasis on expertise was in the People\u2019s Republic of China. Many questions remain, but a recently-published book [Red and Expert: Education in the People’s Republic of China] by Ruth Gamberg, reviewed by Fred Pincus, persuaded me for the need of additional comments. I find Pincus\u2019 analysis of Ruth Gamberg\u2019s book totally unconvincing. He states that prior to Mao\u2019s death, most well-informed friends of China would agree that Gamberg\u2019s view of China and Chinese education, (unintelligible word) prior to Mao\u2019s death. When he denies Gamberg\u2019s states that (unintelligible phrase), the ideology of serving the people, that is the overriding consideration in China has been deeply internalized, and the expert (unintelligible word) can be expected to develop through conscientious and persistent practice. What kind of bias does his statement reflect? A pro-Mao bias, under the guise of objectivity and a chance to see how many of us view China uncritically prior to the death of Mao. Pincus makes a predictable flip-flop and jumps on the expertise in command bandwagon. He should heed his own counsel, that being a friend of China and wishing the Chinese well does not mean suspending criticism or accepting the current political line that is so dangerous about her foreign policy to bring about nuclear war. His stance speaks for itself, in view of the current campaign to discredit the achievements of the Cultural Revolution. In their haste to fail\u2013 to fall in line rather, in the campaign with the Gang of Four\u2019s serious errors in analysis and judgment are being made by Pincus. Another is eager to further the friendly relations between the Americans and Chinese people. Almost forgotten are the incredible achievements of the past decade, advancements which made Chinese people able to produce enough food to feed all of its people without relying on foreign aid, provide universal health education, and care and eliminate decrease diseases edemic\u2013 endemic in Third World countries, virtually eliminate illiteracy, institute universal education for the children, provide a vast variety of educational opportunities for its workers and peasants and soldiers. That\u2019s why I said, give the world enough time, if it wasn\u2019t for the nuclear bomb which will destroy U.S.A., China and the U\u2013 the Soviet Union would eventually get back together. Raise people\u2019s self-reliance, community involvement and political education to an unprecedented degree, drastically reduce the contradictions and alienation which contribute to crime and mental illness, lead the world in an exciting innovations in the workplace. The level of commitment and achievement can be rarely directly attributed to the degree of political education and involvement, and the realization that the efforts of each person count and that the benefits will be shared completely and totally. What evidence is there that students were not acquiring sufficient technical and theoretical skills to develop China\u2019s socialist economy? Education and science knowledge were seen as a process of (unintelligible word) experience for the people\u2013 of the people to be shared by all, for the benefit of all, not as property of the few to be guarded and sold to the highest bidder. It was a successful step towards creating a nation of worker intellectuals and the elimination (Pause) of the division between us and them, between scholars and scientists and the rest of the people, between rulers and ruled. The world has had enough of technocrats with scientific knowledge isolated from the people. Knowledge is power, and\u2013 and only through equal access to knowledge can people become truly equal. No amount of rhetoric will alter that fact. <\/p>\n

I give (unintelligible word) opposing views to our own, though I\u2019m\u2013 do not agree with this article, I believe that there is not available in China proper news about the developments in the Soviet Union, so they are censored. It is interesting that they\u2019re always accusing dictatorships to be existing in Cuba, and yet it is in Cuba that everyone\u2019s learning to read and learning several languages, and Russia are learning two and three languages, avant garde of liberation. The average citizen. You don\u2019t teach that many languages to people, you keep them dumb if you don\u2019t want them to be able to really understand the truth.<\/p>\n

And that\u2019s the fact of life. Anybody would think about that, they\u2019d know. U.S.A. has kept their people completely in surren\u2013 in totality uh, under the boot of uh, ignorance and oppression, and they have never once encouraged the literacy of the old, there\u2019s no incentives, no money given to seniors to get your education that were denied them while they were young. They want them to look at the television, where they\u2019ll be passive robots, hypnotized by the\u2013 the tube, just sitting there looking at a tube that completely hypnotizes them to the so-called good life of US society. That\u2019s why U.S.A. is clearly wrong, that\u2019s why it\u2019s clearly a government that is not representing the people and trying to oppress the people because of its mass hypnotism through television and the lack of reading ability and reading skill in U.S.A. It\u2019d been estimated that less than six percent of the American population read anything more than the front page of a maga\u2013 of a newspaper, and very little\u2013 That is, they don\u2019t get into magazines or other periodicals, so U.S.A. should shut her mouth again and take a look at her own hypocrisy. <\/p>\n

Please work. We\u2019re taking close observation these days. Peoples Rally this evening at 7:30 and\u2013 no, quarter of eight, excuse me, and we voted to change that, we\u2019ll begin immediately with Russian and then perhaps the test will be coming after that. So go back and get your test, know about Brzezinski, Trilateral Commission, know about the uh\u2013 there\u2019s a tape on it, you can listen to it in the library, uh\u2013 and they\u2019ll find a place in the second pavilion, I\u2019m sure, and then also know all about how you answer guests when they come. Thank you, and I love you so<\/em> much. I love you with all my heart. <\/p>\n

Things are still going well in the United States, every place that Mark Lane\u2013 Dr. Lane goes and Dr. [Don] Freed, they open doors on radio, television, and the papers have covered them very well, except the Chronicle<\/em>, who carried the vicious lies of the last defector [Debby Layton Blakey]. They did not cover it all, but even the Progress<\/em> covered it. And it was nothing but headlines in the Sun-Reporter<\/em>, and other papers that we are not familiar with, we haven\u2019t had enough time yet to get all the information assembled. But new friends have been gained, and it has been clearly eastablished that we are the victims of a conspiracy. Thank you, and much love.<\/p>\n

(Short snippet of non-contexual tape) <\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> \u2013tonight. Language. Russian language. Then there will be testing evaluation on current news. Better I hate to do it, to bother you with it, it\u2019s essential because of the requirements of that glorious opportunity to visit the most modern paradise on earth. So\u2013 I mean visit to live there. (Pause) 7:30, everyone be in your seats for Russian language. At 7:30, b\u2013 excuse me, excuse me, excuse me. Quarter of eight. We voted\u2013 People voted differently. It\u2019s quarter of eight, then after that will come\u2013<\/p>\n

(Short snippet of non-contexual tape) <\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> \u2013problems of agriculture, and any discipline problem we have. Remember, observers are noting work habits, and we will have some things to get into, so you might pick up your work habit right now, and see if they can show some difference<\/em> that will avoid difficulty for you. Uh\u2013 We want everyone in their seats at quarter of eight for Russian language, and after that comes the test on current events. Be sure you\u2019re listening in the library, be sure you listen to this news as it starts being played around five thirty on, listen to it closely. Thank you so much. I love you.<\/p>\n

Part II: (September 1978)
\n<\/strong>
\nJones:<\/b> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> She said that she<\/em> was the reason, because something she<\/em> did, and that if I ever left, it would be\u2013 she would be the cause of me leaving. That\u2019s the implication\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Now, Christine [Lucientes], that is not what you told me. That may be part<\/em> of what you told me, but you told me as distinctly as I\u2019m standing here that she said I was having sex with you and someone else because they were\u2013 to keep them from having tr\u2013 tr\u2013 committing treason. And it\u2019s bothered me.<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Dad\u2013 Yeah, that if I\u2013 that\u2013 it was\u2013 it was her responsi\u2013 she was to be responsible, but if Debby Blakey or I committed treason, that\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> And how would she be responsible?<\/p>\n

Young woman:<\/b> Because something that she did that, you know, maybe would affect us, to make us negative. (unintelligible under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, you\u2019ve all been involved in negative reinforcement. And you told me other things bothered me about Chri\u2013 uh, about her, and should<\/em>. You have a part that reports conscientiously. But I want to be sure it\u2019s objective. You told me she comes back here and she says it\u2019s too structured, the place is too structured, you people must have the run of the gossip then (unintelligible word) there. She don\u2019t like to be\u2013 She don\u2019t like to be in here, she\u2013 she\u2019d rather be out, told somebody that Patricia [Cartmell] better be out on the road, (unintelligible word) she likes to mix with new cultures. I don\u2019t\u2013 I don\u2019t think you developed enough<\/em> to be on the road until you ha\u2013 till you hate the road. <\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> You like the road? Then you got no business on the road.<\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> That\u2019s my opinion, because I been\u2013 I been through too much hell over that road. I had the most high-powered CIA people that\u2019ve come on to three people. Shanda James, Evelyn Leroy, and the offer is just the same. Give you money, business, big property, and I reasonably think from the actions reported the last few days before Debby Blakey made her departure to tell her lies, that they had her hooked, and they (unintelligible word)\u2013 they wouldn\u2019t want her when she arrived in Washington, and they probably (tape break-up for several seconds) \u2013made her departure to tell her lies, but they had her hooked, and they (unintelligible word)\u2013 they wouldn\u2019t want her when she arrived in Washington, and they probably are making her\u2013 making her say the things that just because they got her over the barrelhead because she needed heroin again. (Pause) One person saw her lift up her dress and shove a hypodermic in her knee. (Pause) What looked<\/em> like to be a hypodermic. So I\u2019m not\u2013 You\u2013 You people, you are ignorant and na\u00efve. And as long as you\u2019re ignorant and na\u00efve \u2013 and I mean that generally speaking \u2013 we have had more<\/em> crap in Georgetown than I can tell you. Every week in the world, somebody\u2019s coming back from Georgetown with some crap. Nedra Yates this time, old\u2013 old\u2013 woman old enough to be a grandmother almost, and note\u2013 uh, no, can\u2019t go in there and be nice. Have to go there and cause all kinds of trouble and worry me on both fronts. Georgetown terrifies<\/em> me. It literally terrifies me, when I make a decision on who\u2019s going to Georgetown. It\u2019s terrifying (Pause) (stumbles over words) I remember Bea Orsot\u2013 but Bea Orsot\u2019s very needed here. She made an offer, and I certainly would not consider her uh, any way treasonous. But by God, you don\u2019t know<\/em> after a while. Some good people going in, and they make cracks and they do their own thing and they go out on their own time, and they won\u2019t give accountability of what they\u2019re doing? We can\u2019t run an organization like that.<\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (unintelligible word) We run a hotel. Who\u2019s going to run the damn hotel, it\u2019s gonna be coupla thieves, in my opinion. (stumbles over words) I don\u2019t\u2013 I just don\u2019t trust it, I\u2019m telling you, youth\u2013 It\u2019s all right, but youth is ignorant about a lot of things.<\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> And you get taken in by a lot of soft-soaping. Your act damn near cost us the (unintelligible word) ruination. It\u2019s a wonder we didn\u2019t\u2013 didn\u2019t come down over Debby Blakey. (Pause) You follow what I\u2019m saying.<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Murmurs<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Do you want to say something? Somebody standing up back there.<\/p>\n

(Pause)<\/p>\n

Tricia Cartmell:<\/b> Well, as far as I\u2019m going on the road, I\u2019d prefer to stay here. The only fulfillment I get out of doing that is bringing home money. There\u2019s nothing that, you know\u2013 I have more in common here than I do out there. <\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yeah, I\u2019ve heard that you thought I had too much structure here.<\/p>\n

Cartmell:<\/b> That last time I said that, what\u2013 I remember I was on the floor for that, and I didn\u2019t say it was too much structure, I di\u2013 I can\u2019t even remember what I said, that was a long time ago. <\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> You weren\u2019t on the floor, but that time. It was long after\u2013 after that.<\/p>\n

Cartmell:<\/b> I don\u2019t ever<\/em> remember saying anything like that (unintelligible) on the floor. I don\u2019t. In fact, I was telling her the other night that I prefer being here<\/em>.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> And who was the other man said you always look happy and smiling, and trying to get to go to town all the time. Eddie Crenshaw told it. <\/p>\n

Male in crowd:<\/b> too soft<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Jann Gurvich. That\u2019s nice. Said Jann Gurvich said you always look like you\u2019re\u2013 Any excuse you can to get on the truck to get outside here. <\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> too soft<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Jan Wilsey. I\u2019m sorry. I haven\u2019t had any sleep, due to a bunch of bullshit today.<\/p>\n

Cartmell:<\/b> Well, I asked her about that, \u2018cause it wasn\u2019t discussed on the floor, and he said he didn\u2019t have anything to do with that. (unintelligible under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Naw, don\u2019t tell me he didn\u2019t have anything\u2013 Who\u2019d you tell it to?<\/p>\n

Cartmell:<\/b> (unintelligible) to Karen, and Karen (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (unintelligible) a lie, it\u2019s a lie. Sharon wouldn\u2019t lie for nobody.<\/p>\n

Cartmell:<\/b> Well, when I asked her about it, I said I been here almost four weeks and I went out three times<\/em>. And it was to sell, and\u2013 and\u2013 and a couple of other times. So it was\u2013 Each time it was a good\u2013 it was an in\u2013 it\u2013 a reason to go.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> You\u2019re a good salesperson. You\u2019re a good salesperson. You\u2019re also a good teacher. And originally you were put in there because Tom Grubbs needed<\/em> you. It hadn\u2019t anything to do with this. But since<\/em> then, I\u2019ve heard things that upset me. Who\u2013 what\u2013 when Patty [Cartmell] can\u2019t go, who in the hell I\u2019m gonna send? And you guys\u2013 If you\u2013 If you don\u2019t like structure, you\u2013 Somebody\u2013 Who told that stuff about the Guyanese culture, you liked to learn, and see and meet new cultures? Now somebody knows about it\u2013<\/p>\n

Young woman 2:<\/b> Well\u2013 No, I know about it.<\/p>\n

Cartmell:<\/b> I had\u2013 Let me\u2013 <\/p>\n

Young woman 2:<\/b> Okay, let me\u2013 let me respond. Trisha, you\u2019re not being truthful about it. You did<\/em> criticize structure. I\u2019m not\u2013 Not that I\u2019m any example to you, not that I don\u2019t encourage that, but it\u2019s not true.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (unintelligible word) at the time, you did say that to me.<\/p>\n

Young woman 2:<\/b> You did\u2013 You did criticize structure, you were very negative. And I\u2019m not trying to say I\u2019m holier than thou<\/em>, but (unintelligible under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Now the only thing I\u2019ve had to say for you in the past, you\u2019d say things to me, but the thing I cannot<\/em> and I must<\/em> not tolerate is these blow-ups in front of secretaries and other\u2013 in the distance of people\u2019s ears. You can write me any<\/em> damn thing you want to, or whisper in my ear<\/em>, you write up all these notes, you\u2019re close enough, you can tell me something direct<\/em>. You see me. Uh, Selika Bordenave went against, uh, the issue last night about me. I said oh, I\u2019m so tired of this damn meat, I\u2019m so tired, but then I stopped to think, she\u2019s got a very good point<\/em>. And I\u2019ll\u2013 I\u2019ll be very susceptible to criticism. But when you guys are chattering around behind my back, I cannot take it. \u2018Cause I got\u2013 Last night somebody tried to poison me. <\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Stirs<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (unintelligible) Patricia did feel we should mix cultures more and that we will never<\/em> be accepted by the Guyanese. Yes, I heard that before. I heard it from two sources, too.<\/p>\n

Cartmell:<\/b> It\u2019s true, I said that. Uh\u2013 I\u00ac\u2013 I\u2013 I have said before that uh, it would be interesting if we could mix some of the culture and\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Did you ever take\u2013 ever take a look at that handsome young man (unintelligible word) down there? (unintelligible word) stand up. I think he\u2019s Guyanese.<\/p>\n

Cartmell:<\/b> I think it\u2019s beautiful. I think younger people\u2013 And when I said that, I said I thought younger people and seniors should be the ones, if we integrated, would be good, because they have\u2013 I mean, some of their cul\u2013 African culture (unintelligible under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> We don\u2019t need to integrate any<\/em> seniors. We got too much trouble taking care of the seniors we got. A lot of these seniors<\/em> think that it\u2019s a big picnic and so forth and it\u2019s so easy, but they don\u2019t realize that there\u2019s not a check here that one of \u2018em makes that pays their bill. <\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Our budget\u2013 Our budget is at least ten times higher each month than all your checks put together. (Pause) So you can get some idea, that it\u2019s not your checks paying for\u2013 And I\u2019m not for taking any more seniors in, because I want to take care of the seniors I\u2019ve got. Now that may be a little bit of selfish in me, but I know right now, I\u2019ve been able to get the medicines and the surgeries, and it\u2019s a lot of costs going after these doctors. Sometimes I\u2019ve had to set money under the table to get s\u2013 them ahead, \u2018cause some of these doctors have not become socialist, and a lot of them are feeing, like all medicine, su\u2013 and (stumbles over words) professional class, lawyers, they\u2019re afraid of socialism. And one way I got one person off them, I\u2019d put money under the table. I\u2019d take Mom Jackson [Luvenia Jackson] all the way to uh\u2013 to Surinam, because they\u2013 the uh, the government has\u2013 in such a way, it doesn\u2019t\u2013 it hadn\u2019t\u2013 doesn\u2019t have a direct alliance with the Soviet Union, which I think it should have, because it made certain uh, requisites that the USSR found out that story\u2013 the story is this. They went<\/em> to the Soviet Union \u2013 you can all listen to this, you want to \u2013 the government of Guyana went<\/em> to the Soviet Union, and the Soviet Union granted them every kind of trade commitment totaling over a billion dollars. (Pause) They did not want it. It was used, according to the Russian embassy, as a uh, pivoting basis to make U.S.A. have to cough up some money, so they can maintain their non-aligned position, and also they won\u2019t upset the Chinese, who they would get something out of. That\u2019s all right. If they can get something out of this, and they can get something out of that, why, I\u2019m not objecting. Neither is Russia. The Soviet Union told us today something very, very uh, good. I\u2019ve forgotten what it was. What was it told us, something good. Somebody check. I can only remember good. Something today, they\u2013 they\u2013 the Guyanese\u2013 the Russian ambassador told us something good about Guyana and IMF. (Pause) The IMF\u2013 IMF, they\u2019re not giving up the liberties of socialism, so that means that we\u2019re safer and as long\u2013 \u2018cause IMF is a\u2013 is a poison. When he gets started, a government\u2019s very, very hard pressed to maintain its position, although Zambia has. There\u2019s a film that I want you to see on Africa that shows, by God, Zambia has. And so, for that matter, has Jamaica. But it makes it that much more difficult when they can cut your water off\u2013 Wake up, dear, uh, every time you\u2019re in the front (unintelligible word) row, you\u2019re sleeping all<\/em> the time. (Pause) Shift, please. (Pause) I don\u2019t know who said you were in the loss. It\u2019s too bad I don\u2019t. Somebody knows. Who told me they were in the loss? (Pause) Stretch around, that\u2019s it, move your legs, hips, back and forth. (Pause) (tape edit) \u2013condemned by rumor. Now somebody told me that, no later than today or last night. The day went into the night, because\u2013 Who told me that they were\u2013<\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> (too soft)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Robin [Tschetter] and who?<\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> (too soft)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Robin and who?<\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> (too soft)<\/p>\n

Woman 2:<\/b> It was Robin and\u2013 What you read off was Robin\u2013 or Leslie [Wagner-Wilson] said that Robin and I were up there during a Russian class.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> But Robin\u2013 But Robin was not up there. You left when he came.<\/p>\n

Woman 2:<\/b> He left. He came and left, and we were\u2013 we left after that.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> But\u2013 but what we (unintelligible word) both went out of Russian class. <\/p>\n

Woman 2:<\/b> She was going to the bathroom, I was\u2013 I believe it was\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> She.<\/p>\n

Woman 2:<\/b> Robin. I believe at the time, I was going\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Ah, I do want (unintelligible word) to get your helpers moving around here more, and go around to these houses. There\u2019re people playing games, fun and games, and I want the signing in this\u2013 to be passed down the aisle, the seats where they\u2019re assembled. You understand? They can\u2019t all get in line, they can get in a seat, and we\u2019ll pass down a\u2013 By the time of the end of the meeting, we can easily find out who\u2019s there. And Joyce is busy as hell, maybe she can assign someone to check this against our regis\u2013 our total community and see who\u2019s goofing off on us. Another thing I wanted to make comment. Some of you are getting sick, and we\u2019re getting sick of you getting sick, \u2018cause you\u2019re sick half<\/em> the time to get out of work. <\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> And we\u2019ll prove it. And we\u2019re going take throwing your ass out of the I\u2013 ICU when you come in there. Ain\u2019t no sense in seeing some people in the hospital, able-bodied young people one out of two days of the year. Half<\/em> the year, they\u2019re laid up in that hospital. You don\u2019t\u2013 you don\u2019t see many seniors there. Yeah, they get up and get out. Miguel uh, de Pina, he was very sick, it\u2019s a miracle, I saved him, because he went into cardiac arrest, same week Mother Taylor, I had to run to her, she was going into cardiac failure. My God, you wouldn\u2019t have the idea of healing I have to cure, but that man didn\u2019t stay an ounce longer than he had to stay. (Pause) So some of us ought to grow up and cut this foolishness out.<\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Quit talking about what you deserve. What do you mean, you don\u2019t\u2013 you deserve. There\u2019s too much\u2013 too much structure. What is it, too much structure? Structure that keeps children from being in gangs? The structure that keeps children from being (unintelligible word) in Georgetown or in some ghetto in New York, right now, pushing drugs? Mean, taking a fix, or being in a gang, war, every goddamn night? (Voice fades, unintelligible) I\u2019d depress the hell out of you. It depresses me, I don\u2019t even go over it. Riots occurring in sixty, seventy (stumbles over words) cities at the same time. The blacks always lose. And I don\u2019t want to talk about it. It depresses me. Ku Klux Klan marched on them in Cicero, Illinois, and beat them up so badly, and shot two of them, and knifed them, and made tattoo marks on them, all that kinda stuff, I<\/em> don\u2019t want to talk about that alla time. That\u2019s why I don\u2019t understand this silly woman. She\u2013 she\u2013 (unintelligible word) It\u2019s coming though, it\u2019s coming. (unintelligible word) want to be sick. Talking about this U.S.A. And I\u2013 I can\u2019t understand it. (Pause) Yeah.<\/p>\n

Young woman 3:<\/b> Uh, that was not Robin\u2019s fault. I asked her to come with me to pick something up out of there, and I think it was my responsibility for her being over there.<\/p>\n

Young woman 4:<\/b> Uh\u2013 Okay, uh, I went to the bathroom and I walked with Christine to Ron\u2019s cottage to get something, I don\u2019t remember, and uh, at\u2013 when we were there, we were talking about Russian\u2013 Russia and that book, uh, (unintelligible word) Without Crisis, and we were there for about half an hour, just\u2013 So\u2013 And then we\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I\u2019m glad to hear some peo\u2013 young people talk about something worthwhile. When some, all you do is listen to jazz that runs off that radio that was made by white people to dull your hearing and hypnotize your mind. <\/p>\n

Young woman 4:<\/b> And then after that, we left and uh, I\u2013 we came back up, and I know it was wrong to get out of class. <\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Yes it is, it is, it is, we got to keep together<\/em> in this Russian. You say, I will never learn. Yes, you will. When we start speaking it, when we get some words, we have to start speaking it, and then you\u2019ll get used to it, and you\u2019ll\u2013 you\u2019ll begin to speak it. (Pause) People 70, 80 years, 90 years of age have learned to speak a new language. (Pause) What else? Yes, (unintelligible name)<\/p>\n

Young Man 1:<\/b> Christine does pull (unintelligible word) off and talk to me, uh, if there isn\u2019t anything that\u2013 that isn\u2019t, you know, there\u2019s anything that\u2019s not kosher going on. Uh\u2013 Also, that\u2013 the comments you made about uh, I\u2019d rather die than be in here, I wrote that out but I didn\u2019t turn it in, I got it in my pocket now. I thought that was too much. She generally, you know, got some negative things to say, even sometimes when you try and say something positive, she might have a little negative interjection\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Give it to me, give it to me. (unintelligible) You understand?<\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> It\u2019s been a long time since I heard from you about anything<\/em>. So\u2013 (Pause) Christine Lucientes is acting like she ought to\u2013 she could\u2013 she uh, might fli\u2013 flip out. She was mad because the food line was as long and just unfeeling, pushed uh\u2013 Pushed what?<\/p>\n

Male 1:<\/b> (too soft)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (unintelligible) pushed, just being pushed. I guess she has been (Pause) would rather die than do this talking about the very long food line tonight. Maybe someone could talk to her about this attitude. <\/p>\n

Male 1:<\/b> All right. It was\u2013 But she said I would rather die rather than do this, she was talking about the food line at the time. Uh, she was just, you know, real mad and upset, and I thought that was too much. Rather than just the regular negative comments that something like that with a, you know, bad attitude and all that, I thought it was just too much. <\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Uh, Christine Lucientes came in here yesterday and told me she had s\u2013 mouthed off in line. Said she did it because she\u2019s a hostile person, like everyone else. She just more verbal about her hostility. I think you\u2019re wrong. I think you\u2019re more hostile because you\u2019re feeling too much self pity for yourself. I got every reason to be hostile. When you get home at five o\u2019clock every morning, and somebody sends you something that\u2019s poison. I<\/em> don\u2019t get hostile about it. I just wonder how. I puzzle, what can make anybody that sick.<\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I wonder what kind of sickness this is, that wanted to knock off the one means\u2013 knock me off, you\u2019ll do me a favor, if you shot me after we got you to safety. But the idea that anybody\u2019d try to kill me at this<\/em> stage makes me highly<\/em> suspicious that we have a CIA provocateur. <\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> She\u2019s just more verbal about her hostility. I don\u2019t agree with it. Said that people have to wait in foodlines, long, long one, and people are me\u2013 being very hostile, boiling hostile about it, and they didn\u2019t have time to take a shower before they had to be in meeting. She said everyone was afraid to tell you that. I told her she should write it up and let you know, if that was the case. Well, I\u2019ve changed<\/em> it to quarter of eight. Is that not going to help your matter some?<\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> Yes, Dad.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> The first place, I<\/em> don\u2019t know who\u2013 What<\/em> is it you\u2019re trying to impress? I\u2019ve had a dignitary here. What are you trying to impress<\/em>? Why can\u2019t you take a bath after you\u2019re (unintelligible word) sometime, you\u2019re pushed. I\u2013 I don\u2019t\u2013 I don\u2019t know, what the hell do we care about a little body odor? Shows we\u2019ve been on the farm. Don\u2019t you agree?<\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> Yes.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (stumbles over words) I\u2019d rather walk in here two and three days in a row, and never had a bath. \u2018Cause I didn\u2019t have time<\/em> for one. Couldn\u2019t fit it in<\/em>. Wake up. I\u2019ve never given any warning to you on this, so I\u2019m derelict. So I\u2019m giving you a warning, I\u2019m giving you a warning, Patricia, you\u2019re a born salesperson, and I\u2019m not going take you (unintelligible word), so don\u2019t get nervous. But you\u2019re a born salesperson, and you gotta get over that love and attraction for that world out there. Because this is the world ought to be.<\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> As uh, [Feodor] Timofeyev said, I would love for my<\/em> child to grow up in\u2013 in this community. Said, my child is spoiled. Even as much as we in Russia discipline, we indulge our children. Said you\u2019d be the greatest example of all<\/em> Russia. Said you\u2019d be the talk of the musicians, but you gotta get ready fast, \u2018cause we\u2019ve got to get ready fast, I mean, every ex\u2013 extra hour. If it goes into burning the midnight oil, you can do<\/em> it for a few weeks, you can get four hours sleep for a few weeks. (Pause) A lot of folk, they like the privilege to travel all over Moscow, every bit of food service and modern conveniences and shows and cultural events. Lot of folk like to get that experience. <\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> You have to practice. He\u2019d like\u2013 He liked the whole show. I don\u2019t know, 25, that gives me enough for\u2013 he\u2019s even upped it to 25, unless the only thing\u2013 the only thing can stop it is that if it was made for Guyana, and Guyana too damn shiftless to take it when they could get it, so he said, if it\u2019s still not been allocated to someone else, we will definitely get it. Next year, we\u2019ll get it. Said, he tired of fooling with \u2018em. They on a whole trip over there to Moscow, it was only for one reason, to try to get the U.S.A. scared and cause them to get more money from the IMF. But he thinks [Forbes] Burnham\u2019s a courageous ma\u2013 courageous man, just as I do, I\u2019ve seen him be<\/em> a courageous man, but who couldn\u2019t<\/em> be, with what he said, what they\u2013 they\u2013 he\u2019s a KGB man, there\u2019s no question about it, he\u2019s highly intelligent, he\u2019s very, very knowledgeable about every subject. Told us to get debuggers, told us how they can listen to every moment of this meeting with rods out several miles, and pick up every breath we s\u2013 breathe. He told me lots of things. Where to find us 24 hours a day if there\u2019s an emergency that broke out in Georgetown, and the government was going against us, we\u2019d be gotten (unintelligible word), we\u2019re fortunate to have such friendship.<\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> There\u2019s no likelihood there\u2019s gonna be, \u2018cause I\u2019d hate to drag your ass into another meeting, but we\u2013 we gotta know the Russian language. And there ain\u2019t no damn way we can do it but study. We gotta\u2013 we gotta study news, but we also<\/em> gotta stop the damn anarchy. Right now, we\u2019d been getting news, we be able to talk to him\u2013 I hope you can remember for the news, when you take the test, about the Democratic Peoples Republic of North Korea, but you can praise them because they got all their farm methods, as you remember, collectivism and farm coops were modeled after \u2013 do you recall the film \u2013 the Soviet Union. Do you remember seeing that?<\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> Yes.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> And that the Soviet Union liberated them. So (sighs)\u2013 By the way, don\u2019t we have a Yugoslav film? Yugoslavia\u2019s even offered us the\u2013 a facility. (Pause) We are gonna be popular<\/em>. The worm\u2019s turned. But when you ar\u2013 argue about structure, the very thing that\u2019s caused the worm to turn is our structure.<\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> That we don\u2019t put up with bullshit, and don\u2019t take (unintelligible word). If anarchy gets into a movement, you got nothing but trouble. <\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> How many know the basic evils of international Marxist-Leninism? You oughta all know them by heart now. Trotskyism. Those are those that commit adventurous acts, like was done in Miami Wall\u2013 on Wall Street, when 150 US citizens were killed in a senseless act, because it didn\u2019t prove a thing, only turned people more and more to the right. Turned them more and more to fascism. Probably the police did it in the first place. It was a provocative action. And what\u2019s next? Anarchy. Anarchy, do your own thing. Follow your course. Don\u2019t bend. Be hostile because you\u2019re not getting your way. Put your individuality above the collective. You\u2019re not a communist, you\u2019re not a socialist when you\u2013 you\u2013 I always put you<\/em> above me. I don\u2019t give a goddamn, they ring me till I\u2013 till I cannot lift that phone again, but nobody\u2019s ever heard me get smart with them on that telephone. <\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> And I called just the other night, I don\u2019t know how many dozens of people you heard me call, one right after another. There only one reason I did it, was to show you the kind of shit I have to answer. (pause) \u2018Cause those people uh, they (stumbles over words) an answer, I have to get them written up, might as well talk em up, and write \u2018em up. You gotta get an answer to them. And I don\u2019t like the written word. I don\u2019t like folks keep things in writing. Wake up, dear. Some of you write all the time, it makes me nervous. What the hell you doing? If you want to write, you coordinate with Professor [Dick] Tropp. Makes me nervous<\/em> when you write down every word come out of my mouth, I wonder why you\u2019re doing<\/em> it. (Pause) Anybody see anybody doing that? <\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> (too soft)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> What?<\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> (too soft)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I didn\u2019t hear what you said. <\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> (too soft)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, that\u2019s all right. It was before he was\u2013 uh, uh, that\u2019s okay. Little things to remind yourself, but be careful about written stuff. It could fall into e\u2013 enemy hands. Use our memories as well as we can. You can\u2019t yet pick a memory. By God, if you lay down a piece of paper, uh, that\u2019s it. So anarchism, anarchy. We do our own thing. Then you get the last enemy, the blind enemy of Marxist-Leninism, the blind enemy that causes socialism\u2013 Listen to me, cr\u2013 try to learn these, everyone should know these. You ought to be able to tell if the next Muscovites \u2013 Moskva, they call it \u2013 you must<\/em> be able to tell them that, to show your intelligence. Your last major evil, often one of the worst, is social democracy. What does that mean? That means you can vote in, you can work through the parliamentary system, you can work through the Congress, the Senate and U.S. House of Representatives, and you can get new leadership to represent the people. But if we\u2013 I just gave you the review of the whole account of Brzezinski out of his own mouth. Brzezinski, the Trilateral Commission, runs<\/em> the U.S.A. It\u2019s not run by a president anymore. Brzezinski, months before Carter was picked and, as uh, some student ably said the other night, and the Penthouse<\/em> Magazine and uh, Argos<\/em> or Harper<\/em>, one said, uh, pick Mr. Carter is like picking somebody that couldn\u2019t lift theirself ou\u2013 out of a bathroom. He\u2019s that weak. He\u2019s that unable to de\u2013 deal with foreign policy. But Brzezinski<\/em>, a fascist<\/em>, who wrote Superman<\/em>, who believes that the white Scandinavian, that anybody that doesn\u2019t come from the Germanic peoples, he believes exactly<\/em> like [Adolf] Hitler, that they are not people worthy of survival. And he said to a group<\/em> of reporters, I don\u2019t know how you can possibly, possibly believe that you could go home safely [to] the United States, but here a man stood before uh, the cameras, and if you don\u2019t believe it, you\u2013 I dare you to get on any phone patch tonight and ask any newspaper, he said, \u201cWill you excuse me, gentlemen, while I go into the office to discuss my plans for genocide?\u201d (Pause) Genocide means murder of blacks, Indians, Asians, browns, poor white people, seniors, that have no place to go. And he said nuclear war \u2013 don\u2019t forget this \u2013 nuclear war was inevitable. An absolute. And he said it\u2019s egocentric to think that you can\u2019t use a nuclear war to settle matters between human beings. And anybody knows (unintelligible word) that there\u2019s proper linguist, he shoulda said ethno-centric at least, not egocentric. But it is not<\/em>\u2013 It\u2019s absolute madness<\/em> to think that someone\u2019s gonna win a nuclear war<\/em>. U.S.A.\u2019s gonna lose<\/em> that nuclear war, it\u2019s gone be just like Dr. Daniel Ellsberg who spoke in our Temple last Sunday, and wept\u2013 he wept bitterly. He said, to think of my country, I\u2019ll be seeing my country look like a wasteland and a desert. Not a tree b\u2013 blossoming, not the smile of a child, not a rippling brook that isn\u2019t contaminated for perhaps ten thousand years with fallout. We\u2019re very fortunate to be here, we\u2019re fortunate to have somebody offer us a place to go that has underground shelters that run two hundred to three hundred feet deep, he said. We\u2019re very fortunate. (Pause) And we\u2019re fortunate to be offered a place by people who have uh, platform that the U.S.A. can\u2019t even get up, they can\u2019t even get it up, they\u2013 they tried. It\u2019s just like an impotent man that\u2019s threat\u2013 threatened by somebody\u2019s that got an ec\u2013 an erection, they cannot get that kinda stuff up there. Uh, the longest they kept anybody in space is 60 days in a simple capsule. Those Soviets are building a whole<\/em> platform, and I look at him in a tinkle [twinkle] in his eye and said, I hope you\u2019re using the laser beam. Well, Comrade Jim Jones, we are doing some interesting things. <\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Murmurs<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> And the only reason (unintelligible word) me, he said, don\u2019t ever talk \u2013 we should remember that \u2013 he said, turn on your radio. Turn your radio on. We\u2019re doing some interesting things. Well, the interesting things have been to us, that they could stop a missile before it gets out of its s\u2013 silo from outer space. They can stop US missiles, no matter whether they come out of the water\u2013 I told him, the whole<\/em> thing that I\u2019d heard, and he acted like it was true. (Pause) But he<\/em> said, we take no delight \u2013 and I thought this was most precious to me \u2013 he said, maybe this time we wouldn\u2019t lose but a few thousand. But he said, what\u2019s horrible is, that America is going to lose everybody. Canada is going to go down. All through India, all through Europe, there\u2019re going to be massacre and melee, and nothing left alive. That shows the people have compassion for others. Said\u2013 he said to me no uncertain terms, he said we are able to defend ourselves. S\u2019 not worry about nuclear war when you come to the Soviet Union. Comrade Jim Jones, the way he said it, he was\u2013 He loved you people, by the way, knowing that anybody that asked him about prejudice was the stupidest thing in the world. Paul Robeson lived<\/em> there, served<\/em> there, sang<\/em> there, the only place he found a home, reared his son<\/em> there to become a doctor, and when Paul Robeson come home to take care of some property<\/em> affairs in Philadelphia for a loved one \u2013 I found it out again today, I read it \u2013 he went mad<\/em>. Seeing one year of America caused him mind to snap, and then he died, virtually of\u2013 of a\u2013 a stroke. So that man doesn\u2019t have to defend the Soviet Union. [Alexander] Pushkin is a great writer. If you don\u2019t know him, he\u2019s a great writer. Great poet, isn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Murmurs of agreement.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> He\u2019s black<\/em>. Highly esteemed in the Soviet Union. Say, why not more blacks, and some my dumb-ass people said at the embassy, b\u2013 in San Francisco. Tell \u2018em\u2013 tell \u2018em about making (unintelligible) dumb-ass\u2013 (tape edit) How many black ch\u2013 people unless they bought slaves.<\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> We didn\u2019t want to leave Africa. We were forced<\/em> to leave Africa. They drug us out by chains. Russia did not have<\/em> that mentality. She was at least a little more decent<\/em> than most imperialist powers. She never bought slaves. She never traded in slaves. So how in the hell do you expect they\u2019re having any African population unless she did. And they\u2019re tired of being bothered by it, they\u2019ve hunted all over. They don\u2019t want our money, and it\u2019s the most gratifying thing, it\u2019s so lifted a burden, I say, well, we make uh\u2013 we can make a suit on the US government. Says, Comrade Jim Jones, we don\u2019t want you\u2013 your money, we want you and your people. Don\u2019t bother the US government, they\u2019re liable to do something wicked. Yes, you might win forty million dollars, but we don\u2019t need it, we\u2019re a rich nation. So what about our pension checks, they could do something\u2013 Don\u2019t worry, Comrade Jim Jones, you worry too much. Don\u2019t worry. If they cut off all the Social Security pensions, don\u2019t worry. Said, we\u2019re a rich nation, don\u2019t you understand? He said, the seniors work, don\u2019t they? I said, every day. Said, then don\u2019t worry. He said, we follow the doctrine, from each according to his ability to each according to his need. He said if a senior fell down, you\u2019ll have the best hospital care. And they will\u2013 the senior will be making the decisions about what the policies<\/em> are of the hospital. Is that the way it is in the Soviet Union. <\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> You oughta take a look through some of these other socialist \u2013 so-called \u2013 committee around here, and see the difference. You\u2019re a damn, damn fool that don\u2019t want to go.<\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> But whatever. We take that day at a time. (Pause) (unintelligible word) I\u2019ve got to have to stop this, and I gotta put a warning on all of you, it\u2019s a heavy warning, I want this to stop. Meet your responsibilities to teaching. You don\u2019t complain against Patricia?<\/p>\n

Male 2:<\/b> Probably Jeff [Carey or Wheeler] could make the statement better than I, \u2018cause he\u2019s the one that just reported it to me, that today Trisha spoke to him asking if he would take her class as a permanent teaching assignment so that she could go back downriver. <\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Don\u2019t do that. Don\u2019t get too anxious go downriver. You make me nervous when you do that. (Pause) I\u2013 I\u2013 I\u2013 I think (unintelligible word) be honest with yourself, as Christine said to you a moment ago, to be honest, I think she\u2019d be honest with yourself, it\u2019s more than wanting to make money for the cause. <\/p>\n

Cartmell:<\/b> I do too.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> If I got honesty from you, uh, that\u2019d be the fastest way for you to get downriver, but I\u2013 I don\u2019t like people bullshit me.<\/p>\n

Cartmell:<\/b> What I told Jeff was that uh\u2013 He uh\u2013 Jeff came up to me and asked me if I liked to go\u2013 He said, I know you like going downriver, Patricia. I said, no one told me I\u2019m going down the river, Jeff. It\u2019s like he was setting me up to say something, you know. And he just kept pursuing the conversation.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> He could be in the committee\u2013 He could be in the committee of revolution defense. We have them all over the place. You understand what that means? People who are\u2013 who are\u2013 uh, all<\/em> of you should be in it. If you were good followers, you would report every negative thing you hear, because if they had reported Debby, the things they knew about Debby before it happened, we wouldna had twenty-five thousand dollars ripped off, and we wouldna had that horrible article in the Chronicle<\/em>, big lies against us. Sure, we\u2019re glad tonight. KGO\u2019s praised us, and KSFO and KP\u2013 C\u2013 KCBS, KPOO, and the Examiner<\/em>. Chronicle<\/em>\u2019s too red-faced to say anything, because naturally they said one thing\u2013 But we even got a retraction in the Chronicle<\/em>, of Bishop Moore and his wife [John and Barbara Moore] saying how beautiful the place was. (Pause) We\u2019re lucky to get that<\/em>, being a bunch of Communists.<\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I\u2019m telling you, you\u2019re lucky. The press will cut you down, because it\u2019s the arm of the capitalist oppressor, and it\u2019s in there to destroy<\/em> you. Now you people gotta hate<\/em> capitalism more, and you\u2019ll be hostile less, that\u2019s the only thing I can tell you.<\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> You gotta hate<\/em> that system. You gotta take a look and listen when I say\u2013 When they write up there and Tere\u2013 Teresa, where they threw a beautiful job, uh, you look at that shit. You look at that murderous shit. You think about a sixteen-year-old boy being grabbed, and tattoo\u2013 swastika\u2013 swastikas being put on him today. Happens every day. I go all through the news. Hell, I\u2013 I get so depressed with it, I couldn\u2019t tell you it all. Goddamn Ku Klux Klanners were marching in Cicero, and drove the black people out. (Pause) I don\u2019t know what\u2019s the matter. You people put too much emphasis on your own life. Mine don\u2019t count. (Pause) Only as the people need me, that\u2019s it. When they don\u2019t need me, I\u2019ll be glad to be free of it. I will not be only be glad<\/em> to free of it, I will<\/em> be free of it. But right now, I don\u2019t know anybody\u2019s gonna take this suffering. I don\u2019t know anybody\u2019s got the compassion, I don\u2019t know anybody\u2019s got the fairness or justice, I see it in Johnny [Moss Brown Jones], I see it in Ji\u2013 my son Stephan [Jones], I see it in others to\u2013 much of the other degrees, but you gotta put the whole thing together. You gotta be willing to structure your own life. You gotta be willing to sacrifice your\u2013 uh, some of the things you want, you can\u2019t be led around by your ass. Something I never did. People don\u2019t ever accuse me of being led by my ass, because I never have been. And I never will be. <\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> Right. Thank you, Dad.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> One person made the commitment to me, I thought that was very beautiful, he said my commitment\u2013 I want to tell you, this organization and communism, Father, is above my ass, at least I can say that. I don\u2019t know how far up it is, but it\u2019s above my ass. But some of you folks settin\u2019 out there, it\u2019s not<\/em> above your ass. And it\u2019s not above your damn mouth uh, uh, over food and all this damn shit, while people are starving to death, and we have the nerve to argue. If we were\u2013 If we carry the burden like we ought to, when\u2013 when we come to look at that food, that food would make us nauseous. <\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I mean, if you thought about the bloody babies. I see that haunting Vietnam mother, I\u2019ll never forget it as long<\/em> as I live, that grandmother with her arms around her children, please don\u2019t shoot them, then the US opens fire and blows down the grandmother and the children. She\u2019s begging, she pleading. Anybody remember that picture?<\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> Yes.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> It haunts me all<\/em> through the years. Grandmother trying to hold a baby, she\u2019s got a little\u2013 just like (stumbles over words) one\u2013 one man said, I won\u2019t hunt the baboon up the river. He says, if I get one, I believe Patricia\u2013 or Patty told me that. Said, I won\u2019t hunt \u2018em. I don\u2019t want to hunt \u2018em, \u2018cause when the mother\u2013 the mother has a baby \u2013 they have to kill the mother \u2013 the mother will put out the paw as if\u2013 as if to say please, please, don\u2019t hurt\u2013 don\u2019t\u2013 don\u2019t kill me. My baby needs me. I ain\u2019t killing nothing like that. I\u2019ll eat greens before I\u2019m gone kill something that intelligent. <\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> That\u2019s an intelligent animal. You hear \u2018em at night, if you listen. (Blows on microphone) Have you ever heard \u2018em?<\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> Yes.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> That\u2019s that beautiful sound. And they\u2019re gentle, they don\u2019t bother anybody, but I thought, my God, how can anybody shoot a mother, hold\u2013 hold the baby, trying to protect the baby with one arm, and putting her hand out to the man, begging him with a shot\u2013 with a\u2013 a gun right away, and then they go ahead and shoot him. I don\u2019t like people like that. (Pause) Okay. Anything else?<\/p>\n

Cartmell:<\/b> Uh, no, I just want to say, it\u2019s true that\u2013 that I asked her for\u2013 The culture I like, uh\u2013 There\u2019s nothing I can say. I don\u2019t like capitalism, I don\u2019t like cities, I don\u2019t like Georgetown, I don\u2019t like any of that sh\u2013 those kinds of things, uh, (unintelligible under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> What is it\u2013 What is it you like about their culture?<\/p>\n

Cartmell:<\/b> Uh\u2013 It\u2019s just simple, that\u2019s all. It\u2019s not\u2013 It\u2019s not progressive, like here, this is\u2013 It\u2019s much better here, \u2018cause it\u2019s more progressive and a lot more we can\u2013 it can be done when people get together and unify. It\u2019s just the simple\u2013 I mean, (unintelligible under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> It is so<\/em> simple\u2013 It is so<\/em> simple that one night, the Russians may have to get on there with a uh, uh, this Morse code and tell us to move quickly or they\u2019ll be landing with helicopters. They\u2019ve even talked to that. It\u2019s so<\/em> simple that the Venezuelans could march across this border and be in Georgetown in 24 hours. That\u2019s the danger of disorganization. And simplicity, and confusion, and nobody knowing what the right hand\u2013 left hand doing. What the hell do you think that colonel from Venezuela\u2013 Quit fanning back there, (unintelligible word) quit\u2013 do that, please. Why, you can\u2019t be that hot back there. <\/p>\n

Male voice in crowd:<\/b> (too soft)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (unintelligible) and we won\u2019t be getting anything to him, and the rations don\u2019t get to him as we get them. It\u2019s disorganized<\/em>, because there\u2019s not enough socialists, there are up at the higher levels but there\u2019re not enough socialists at the low levels. And it (unintelligible word)\u2013 and it stinks. And that\u2019s why I want to get us\u2013 Sure we can survive here, we can go on endlessly and endlessly and endlessly. That\u2019s the very reason some of you are bored. I want to give you other opportunities. Have to stay on the collective there, you can go on to college, you can go on to talent, music, whatever<\/em>, \u2018cause I\u2019ll have new<\/em> ones come in. They want me to work particularly with the Russian Pentecostals who\u2019s giving them a hell of a time. The Russian Pentecostals believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior of the world, and his blood is precious, and it says, to obey no man, not\u2013 no\u2013 uh, no man, they take that literally, so they won\u2019t even obey their own country and spit on a flag or stomp on it when it\u2019s raised. Give me a few weeks of (unintelligible word) that guy (unintelligible word) Russian, give us a few weeks uh, give me my gospel tears, and we\u2019ll get by\u2013 we\u2019ll forget\u2013 we\u2019ll forget some of this liberation, we\u2019ll sing some of them ol\u2019 Jesus songs and we\u2019ll whip it all up to a frenzy, and in two or three weeks, we\u2019ll have \u2018em thinking atheist, they won\u2019t know what the hell happened to them. <\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Laughter, then applause<\/p>\n

(Tape edit)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> It\u2019ll go out, like it did on the day of Pentecost, around about the world. Went to all parts, that marvelous session. But nobody knows anything about it. Who\u2019s dead ass asleep, leaning over on a stand, right\u2013 way in the back. (Pause)<\/p>\n

(Tape edit)<\/p>\n

Woman 3:<\/b> The job changes have been cleared anyway, so that\u2019ll\u2013 I won\u2019t be in the frustrating situation to mouth off. And I\u2019ll change my associations, the people I\u2019m associating with.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I\u2019d appreciate it if all of you would watch your tongue. You don\u2019t know who you\u2019re\u2013 who may be listening. You don\u2019t know who in the hell you\u2019re talking about. You know one piece of information, we\u2019re finding very, very peculiar, uh\u2013 how it got from here to those working against our enemies, our own (unintelligible word) of Dr. Lane and Dr. Freed who wrote all those beautiful books, and Dr. [Carlton] Goodlett. Some information got out of here. Someway, we can\u2019t figure out how. (Pause) It didn\u2019t hurt us, \u2018cause fortunately I confuse people sometimes. I\u2013 I never tell things just exactly, all<\/em> the news. (Pause) You go out and tell I\u2019m going to Russia, I\u2019ll tell you\u2019re a liar, and they can give me a lie detector test, and I\u2019ll prove it. I\u2019ll make that needle say whatever I want that needle to say. <\/p>\n

Crowd:<\/b> Laughter, then applause<\/p>\n

(Tape edit)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> \u2013(unintelligible word) of them to talk about helicopters, asking where helicopter best could land. It\u2019s marvelous [for] them to think of us in a situation like that. Say, it may never happen<\/em>. I don\u2019t\u2013 I don\u2019t give a damn that never happened, but I\u2019m the kind of parent that worries about everything<\/em>. I worry about all<\/em> your welfare, and by God, I can\u2019t do<\/em> better than what we got now. <\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> By the way, get the Yugoslavs out, this\u2013 they\u2013 they\u2013 they\u2013 they print a nice article, but they see\u2013 saw us as hippies. (tape edit) (unintelligible word) recommended medical department that he has a chronic (pause) his\u2013 history of skin infection and enzymes which is highly aggravated by\u2013 (unintelligible word) by shaving. Okay, we\u2019re not inhuman. Don\u2019t anybody else come up with that bullshit, though. That\u2019s one in a million. (Pause) I can see 55 people coming up, trying to tell me they got uh, soap bothers them. I use Grandma Etta Thompson\u2019s soap of my face. It cuts very well. Sometimes you prick<\/em> yourself, you feel like you had a little fire, but it\u2019ll work. Kay [likely Rosas, could be Nelson], I have nothing more to say, I\u2019m giving you warning. Go ahead.<\/p>\n

Woman 4:<\/b> I did make a statement that uh, little girls who are not overprotected by their parents sometimes grow up more intelligent, but uh, I\u2019ve also written up my criticisms of children to you, and we formed a children\u2019s committee as a result. Interesting, and I don\u2019t have any alliance going at all.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I never heard you did have. Now there\u2019s some here that (unintelligible word) observers. The whole bunch of night crew workers. <\/p>\n

Male in crowd:<\/b> Right hand.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Right hand. Let\u2019s not forget, it\u2019s the right hand. Uh, I\u2019m talking about helpers. There\u2019s\u2013 I want to read these off fast, and I want my people who are in charge to show me what kind of hu\u2013 humility you got or you\u2019re liable to be fired. My Tim Jo\u2013 uh, Tim Night Jones. I reported him for playing music the while\u2013 whole time sitting on the\u2013 while sitting in the guard shack. He\u2019s always been willing to do (Pause) errands, I guess, when I ask.<\/p>\n

Male in crowd:<\/b> (Too soft)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> I said Tim Night Jones. Uh, okay. All right, I gotta deal with it now. Put it down, then I gotta deal with him. Joe Wilson. Have not seen his performance but he seems to take the job serious. [Don] Sly, especially after I report him for sleeping on his post down (Pause) Eat\u2013 at East House. Not arrogant to me, but has been to others. (tape edit) Or consider me monotonous or think that you know more about what I\u2019m doing than I do. You should listen to me. <\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Tim Jones:<\/b> I got nothing else to say. I just\u2013 I just\u2013 I got nothing else to say. I don\u2019t wish to talk about it. I just drop all them\u2013 all them charges, you can do whatever you want, and whatever (unintelligible) everyone want to wish to do it to me, go ahead on, \u2018cause I don\u2019t wish to talk about it. Three-quarters of that is bullshit\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Oh, don\u2019t give me no stuff you don\u2019t wish to talk about. That\u2019s arrogance. (Pause) You wouldn\u2019t have\u2013 If anybody like that done that to me, you\u2019da jumped off this platform. <\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> \u201cI don\u2019t want to talk about it.\u201d (pause) <\/p>\n

(Two men talk over each other)<\/p>\n

Tim Jones:<\/b> No, but you know what it sound like to me. It sounds like somebody isn\u2019t getting their ass kissed, and that\u2019s what it\u2013 Everything (unintelligible word) always come, this\u2013 this\u2013 this is, maybe I\u2019m not kissing this person\u2019s ass, and that\u2019s what it looks like to me. (unintelligible under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> (unintelligible) Tim\u2013 Tim Jones, that you have faults.<\/p>\n

Tim Jones:<\/b> I said I di\u2013 I said I was wrong, Dad, I said I was wrong with what you just said, I said I was wrong with pulling Janet\u2019s hair and a lot of stuff I did (unintelligible word) was wrong, and I\u2019d immediately taken (unintelligible), but it wasn\u2019t like I refused. But uh\u2013 uh\u2013 okay, I\u2019m wrong in a lot of ways. But uh\u2013 don\u2019t you think that\u2019s absurd what they\u2013 oh, I\u2019m a coward, I\u2019ve never risked my life? I\u2019ve done as much as anyone else when a lot of shit happen, and we was the ones walking with you getting shot at, just like anybody else, it wasn\u2019t another day to me. So I resent, no one knows the hell they\u2019re coming from, talking\u2013 I\u2019m pissed! I\u2019m bad pissed about that (unintelligible under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/b> Well, you shouldn\u2019t be pissed. Somebody made it with (tape edit) (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Male 4:<\/b> I\u2013 I want to say this. You\u00ac\u2013 you might very well be pissed, a lot of the charges might be wrong, but they deserve being addressed, here, since it\u2019s been made public. You ca\u2013 you can\u2019t pop off and say, well, hey, I\u2019m gonna forget it, I\u2019m gonna push it down the road, I\u2019m not gonna talk about it. You have to address those\u2013 those\u2013 those charges. <\/p>\n

Voices in crowd:<\/b> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

End of tape<\/p>\n

Tape originally posted July 2014<\/strong><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you. To return to the Tape Index, click here. Listen to MP3 (Pt. 1, Pt. 2). To read the Tape Summary, click here. Jones: Tuesday news. Remember, we\u2019re having observers now watching work that will come up in the Peoples Forum this evening, Peoples […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"parent":27291,"menu_order":217,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-60632","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/60632","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=60632"}],"version-history":[{"count":8,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/60632\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":66157,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/60632\/revisions\/66157"}],"up":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27291"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=60632"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}