{"id":66800,"date":"2016-04-30T10:10:27","date_gmt":"2016-04-30T17:10:27","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=66800"},"modified":"2016-05-03T14:03:09","modified_gmt":"2016-05-03T21:03:09","slug":"q616-transcript","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=66800","title":{"rendered":"Q616 Transcript"},"content":{"rendered":"

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III<\/strong><\/i>. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.<\/strong><\/i><\/p>\n

To return to the Tape Index, click here<\/a>.
\nTo read the Tape Summary, click here<\/a>. Listen to MP3 (Pt. 1<\/a>, Pt. 2<\/a>).<\/p>\n

(Editor\u2019s note: Because of the many verbal fillers and false starts in this original transcript, a version of this tape edited for clarity appears here<\/a>.)<\/em><\/p>\n

Stephan Jones:<\/strong> When I was uh, little, we\u2013 you know, we had a nuclear family, and it was\u2013 it was really\u2013 it was great because uh, (Pause) I don\u2019t know, we never\u2013 we never had discipline the way\u2013 I mean, one of the things that struck me, I knew when I\u2019d done wrong, and I think I felt much<\/em> worse\u2013 Dad had a way of making me know that, I mean, what I had done was wrong. He never put a hand to me, but I felt\u2013 I mean, I\u2019ve been spanked by teachers and stuff like that, and all it ever did to me was, like, you know, make me hate, and it\u2013 and I\u2019d have so\u2013a way of uh, taking my mind on what I\u2019d<\/em> done wrong and directing my\u2013 you know, I\u2019d be hostile to the person that spanked me, but he had a way of making me feel like\u2013 like I was\u2013 you know, I mean, he knew\u2013 he knew how to make me know I\u2019d done wrong. But we never had the violence in the family, none of the spanking, none of the, you know, the parents argued over different matters of dis\u2013 you know, they disagreed over some, but it was\u2013 I don\u2019t know, it was just a good atmosphere, you know. And there was never favorites, because they\u2013 they knew<\/em>\u2013 I mean, I think it was they had to\u2013 in their own mind, they had to prove that they\u2013 they uh, didn\u2019t favor their natural born over their adopted children, because you\u2019d think they\u2013 they knew the children\u2019d have conflict over that. And uh, I don\u2019t know, it just\u2013 we had\u2013 they always had time for us, and Dad always had time for us, and uh, used to wrestle around with us and stuff and\u2013 and show us love at the same time, and talk about it, and talk with us about what was right and wrong and everything. It was just uh\u2013 uh\u2013 you know, anything you could imagine uh, good about a family, uh, that\u2019s what it was. And as I got older, Dad got more involved with people, \u2018cause he knew he had something to offer, and we all knew he had something to offer to mankind, and so he\u2013 people started coming in and seeing his goodness, and uh, more and more, he was pulled away from me, you know, and\u2013 not just me but all of us, and he had less time for us, and he\u2013 you know, you could tell\u2013 you could see\u2013 I mean, it hurt\u2013 I think it hurt him\u2013 I know<\/em> it hurt him more than it hurt us, because (Pause) (Sighs) which only combined it\u2013 combined, you know\u2013 It was\u2013 It was sort of a combination with us, because not only did we<\/em> feel hurt, because uh, we didn\u2019t have the time, but we also could see his<\/em> hurt, that he didn\u2019t have the time with us. And uh, it made me\u2013 it made me hostile, very hostile, because one thing\u2013 the only thing I ever had to identify with was\u2013 was the nuclear family, was our family, because nobody could\u2013 nobody ever tried to understand\u2013 you know, everybody h\u2013 hated\u2013 For whatever reason, they just\u2013 you know\u2013 When you don\u2019t understand something, you usually strike out against it, you know, other than try to understand, and they just couldn\u2019t understand me having a black\u2013 black brother [Jim Jones Jr.] and\u2013 and an Asiatic brother [Lew Jones] and sister [Suzanne Jones Cartmell], and it was a\u2013 a conflict with me and anybody that I would try to make friends with. So the only thing I had was\u2013 was the family, and I saw\u2013 you know, I\u2013 I saw it falling apart, and it made me uh, withdraw, really bad, and I\u2013 the only thing I would\u2013 I\u2013 I don\u2019t know that\u2013 also I\u2013 I started to uh, you know, care about animals. That\u2019s when I started my thing with animals because they\u2013 they were all I had, you know, and uh, as long as I gave to them, they would give something to me, and uh, then I kinda pulled away from people. So I guess it kinda\u2013 uh, I mean, that was a good aspect of my\u2013 you know, uh, that was a good part of my life, \u2018cause animals had been, you know, fulfilling to me and stuff. But uh, I\u2013 it was hard for me to come to realize that\u2013 that I had\u2013 that\u2013 that Dad had something to off\u2013 to offer, and being a kid, it just\u2013 I just could not\u2013 you know, I\u2013 I just never uh, took into\u2013 to mind that uh\u2013 It was selfish of me to think that I could uh, ha\u2013 have all of su\u2013 such a uh, advanced, uh, mind and person, because he was far, you know\u2013 he\u2019s far ahead of m\u2013 of most people, uh, intellectually and uh\u2013 He knows what\u2019s right and he\u2019s uh, been blessed with compassion, but at the same time, he\u2019s always had the ability to let you know when he stands on a subject, and uh\u2013 and I\u2019ve never known anyone to uh, not respect what he has to say. And uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman Interviewer:<\/strong> So what was it like when uh, maybe\u2013 maybe you were (unintelligible word) teenager (unintelligible word), when he started maybe developing a communal lifestyle for his people, and not just people who came to his church maybe once a week, but\u2013<\/p>\n

Stephan Jones:<\/strong> Mm-hmm [Yes].<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/strong> \u2013 turn into uh, a close knit community, maybe, I don\u2019t know if it was in Indianapolis or if it was in San Francisco\u2013 I mean, rather Redwood Valley when it started it. How old were you when you started to have to really share your Dad with, you know, a\u2013 a larg\u2013 larger community that was really close-knit, and it pulled on him, on his energy and his resources to a much\u2013 a much greater extent than\u2013 than any other dad that you knew.<\/p>\n

Stephan Jones:<\/strong> Well. I\u2019d say I was probably eight or nine when\u2013 when we started uh\u2013 when we started\u2013 and Dad had turned towards a more uh, commun\u2013 communal way of life, you know, uh, not just uh, the nuclear family, but\u2013 but anyone that believed what he believed and stuck with him, was part of the family. Which now<\/em>, you know, I see that\u2019s right and I know that\u2019s right, and it\u2019s been\u2013 it\u2019s made my life a lot better, you know, having people that you can fall back on and\u2013 and know you can rely on, but at that time, it\u2013 I saw my Dad just\u2013 just drained, I mean, what\u2013 what used to be a\u2013 uh, uh, a li\u2013 a lively person, and a\u2013 and an energetic person, just\u2013 it just\u2013 it just\u2013 just started to fade before my eyes, I mean, you could just see<\/em>\u2013 see him just drained to the point of uh, you know, near death. I mean I\u2013 I\u2013 From that time on, it was\u2013 there was nothing for me to think that, you know, Dad\u2019s only got a\u2013 at the most a couple of years, you know. I mean, I\u2013 I\u2019m to this day surprised that he\u2019s made it as long as he has, you know, because he always made a point to talk to me, and you know, let me let me know about my responsibilities if he\u2013 if he isn\u2019t always with us. And it was the loving thing to do, because I\u2013 it\u2013 I don\u2019t know what I\u2019d do if\u2013 if\u2013 I\u2019m ready for it now, but at that time, it would\u2019ve just\u2013 I would\u2019ve just gone completely insane if he\u2013 if I\u2019d lost him, because he\u2019d been my only identification point, the only thing I had, you know, to uh, keep me in touch with reality, because everybody seems so cold and so distant and so selfish, and uh\u2013 It made me really hostile, I mean\u2013 like you know, I\u2019m surprised that I just didn\u2019t totally (Pause) turn away from uh, uh, what we believe, and\u2013 and\u2013 and just become a totally selfish\u2013 you know, and self\u2013 you know, just totally self-centered\u2013 centered person, you know, and\u2013 because it made me hostile because I had lost everything that seemed good to me, uh. \u2018Course, it was later replaced by something that\u2019s even better, you know. A\u2013 a better security because there\u2019s\u2013 there\u2019s no secure\u2013 I mean, there\u2019s a\u2013 Dad made me feel secure, but what is one man or one family against a\u2013 a very hostile world? But uh, it made me ho\u2013 it\u2013 it\u2013 it turned me against that way of life, and it made me uh, very uh, withdrawn, it made people dislike me at the same time because I\u2013 I was\u2013 I was nasty, and I was uh\u2013 I always thought I was right and I\u2013 and I never would shut my mouth, and I would\u2013 and I started fights over little things, and I\u2019d turn\u2013 you know, I would\u2013 became what most people would call a\u2013 I can\u2019t think of the word for it, but uh, you know, I\u2013 I woulda\u2013 would\u2019ve ended up in, you know, some sort of uh, reform school if it hadna been for my dad, you know, keeping me, you know\u2013 I haven\u2019t\u2013 Parents that cared about me and I could go and talk to because I\u2019d\u2013 I had totally uh\u2013 I had become hostile to the world and people in general, because I felt they were taking something from me, but now I see I didn\u2019t\u2013 you know, I dis\u2013 I deserve\u2013 they deserved it just as much as I did. But uh\u2013 (Pause) Where\u2013<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Music for several seconds<\/p>\n

Stephan Jones:<\/strong> Uh\u2013 I was\u2013 We lived in Indianapolis up till about\u2013 up until the\u2013 the early 60s, because uh, at that time, before we left Indianapolis, Dad was uh, pastoring a church, and the way he could see it, he was kind of fighting a\u00ad\u2013 a losing battle because people were drawing from him but never making any kind of commitments to any\u2013 any ideals, and uh, he knew that in Brazil and\u2013 and\u2013 which is where we went and\u2013 and other Third World nations, that\u2013 that uh, there were people starving that would be appreciative of what he had to offer, and at least he could do something for somebody, instead of wasting his life on people that were\u2013 were\u2013 and\u2013 you know, by no means ready to make any kind of commitment, so we uh\u2013 we left, I guess it must\u2019ve been in \u201962 or something for Brazil, and uh, we set right off\u2013 you know, I don\u2019t remember much, but I know that Dad set up a\u2013 set right in to setting up an orphanage for\u2013 for all the children that\u2013 that their parents had just died off. The only thing I remember about it is that I never had a shortage of playmates, and I just\u2013 and I thought it was just great, because I always had somebody to go out and play with, and\u2013 and they never, you know, looked down on me<\/em> for\u2013 for having a black brother, because they were all\u2013 uh, they were all darker complected. But uh, I just remember that\u2013 that we\u2019d be eating because uh, no matter how\u2013 you know, Dad never would live high, you know, he\u2013 we always would live in the\u2013 the\u2013 the poorer sections of town and\u2013 and uh\u2013 because he didn\u2019t want to lose that identification. Plus he didn\u2019t feel right\u2013 he didn\u2019t feel right living higher or anything, because\u2013 but he always kept\u2013 made sure that we were fed and that we had the little things that he feels\u2013 feels children should have. But uh, I remember that people would constantly be coming to the door wanting food and needing something, because they were starving, just right and left, I mean, it just\u2013\u00a0I mean, we<\/em> had lived what would be considered poor in the\u2013 in the United uh\u2013 in the United States, but when we came down there, I was just\u2013 it just\u2013 it just shocked me to see how people s\u2013 you know, how\u2013 how people are forced to live in so many places, and it\u2013 it was hard for me to cope with for a long time, because it was just\u2013 I don\u2019t know, it was\u2013 it was\u2013\u00a0I just never even imagined<\/em> that people could be so degraded and so uh, malnour\u2013 nourished and\u2013 and\u2013 and so without anything, I mean, they had nothing<\/em>. It was everything they could do to uh, just keep their uh, their\u2013 their families alive, and themselves alive. And they\u2013 (tape edit)<\/p>\n

I mean, uh, in a place like this, Dad always had something to do, he was always, you know, getting things done from the\u2013 the orphanage where he was seeing about somebody, so he was away from the house quite a bit, and uh, up till that point, I had always uh\u2013 Strangely enough, I\u2019d identified with my father more than I had with my mother [Marceline Jones], because he always presented both sides, you know, that this\u2013 the strong figure but at the same time, the loving figure. So I didn\u2019t see how I needed anything else, but with him gone, I kinda had to turn to my mother, and I think from her, I got a lot of my uh, uh\u2013 my compassion. I mean, I had\u2013 I never felt like I had to prove anything to people, at least<\/em> not at that time, and I\u2013 I felt like I could say I loved somebody, I knew I could cry and not feel like I was a sissy or (short laugh)\u2013 or\u2013 or\u2013 or weird, and uh\u2013 So I\u2019m\u2013 I kinda got a good\u2013 a good balance of uh, (pause) uh, I don\u2019t know, I just got a good balance. And uh, I also had another woman that lived with us that was, you know\u2013 She\u2013 She was uh\u2013 She received a salary from us, but she really didn\u2019t do anything but\u2013 but, you know, she lived with us and she was kinda like a second mother, and she kinda\u2013 It was a good experience for me, because she was so down to earth, you know, she was so practical because that\u2019s\u2013 that\u2019s the only way she knew to survive, is, you know, you had<\/em> to be matter-of-fact, you couldn\u2019t get into a whole bunch of uh, (Pause) fai\u2013 fairy tale and\u2013 and niceties because it was\u2013 it was uh, a hard world, but she\u2013 but she\u2013 I remember we went uh, one time to\u2013 \u2018cause she\u2019d go home every weekend and visit her family, and\u2013 and\u2013 and see how they were, and\u2013 and uh\u2013 which\u2013 which also, you know, was\u2013 was shocking to me because you had\u2013 my parents always could find time, you know, to give us love and everything, but she wa\u2013 she\u2013 uh, she had to make money or they\u2013 they would\u2019ve died, so she didn\u2019t have any time to see them but on weekends, and I went home with her one time, and it just\u2013 it was terrible. I mean, you look\u2013 they look\u2013 she lived on a mountain, on a little hill, and you just looked around, and the rains had washed half the houses down the hill, people were walking around trying to rebuild their little huts that were just made out of scrap, they\u2013 they\u2019d go to the\u2013 I mean, it\u2019s\u2013 it just looked like a junkyard. And it just had a\u2013 a hell of an impact on me, because I\u2019d never, you know, realized that people could live like that. (Pause)<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Uh. After being in Brazil for about\u2013 for a couple of years, I don\u2019t know the exact time, it became evident to my Dad and\u2013 that\u2013 that uh, there was gonna be a\u2013 some sort of rightwing takeover, because uh, there was too much unrest in the people, and they were\u2013 they were getting tired of their\u2013 of their living conditions and the way they were being oppressed, and uh\u2013 and Dad knew, it\u2013 it wa\u2013 was sure what would happen, so we got out of there. And uh, sure enough, eventually, there was a\u2013 a stronger\u2013 a stronger government was put in\u2013 in power and it was\u2013 but anyway, we got\u2013 we got out and we went back to Indiana (clears throat) and uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Person off mike:<\/strong> David George around?<\/p>\n

Stephan Jones:<\/strong> Uh-uh [No]. No. (short laugh) And we uh\u2013 so anyway, we were going back to Indiana for a short while, there\u2019s only at the most, I think, a couple\u2013 a year and a half, and uh, it was about that time that when\u2013 that I was\u2013 I started school. I went to kindergarten. And before that time, I had been\u2013 I had never really ventured out into the world much, and I\u2019d stayed, you know\u2013 only\u2013 the only thing I knew about the world was my family. And uh, and it was\u2013 it was hard for me, because ever\u2013 you know, ever since I can remember, I had a black brother, and I had a uh\u2013 a Korean brother and sister, and until I was well along in life, they wa\u2013 I was\u2013 I wasn\u2019t even told that they weren\u2019t my natural brother and sister, I didn\u2019t\u2013 I hadn\u2019t\u2013 you know, I\u2013 I thought that they had come from the same place I<\/em> had, you know, \u2018cause we\u2019d always been taught that, that nobody was any different, and I just couldn\u2019t understand. I mean, it\u2013 It was just\u2013 I\u2013 It was just\u2013 It just seemed irrational to me, I mean, it just didn\u2019t even\u2013 There\u2019s no way I could understand that I was acceptable to these people, but my brothers and sisters weren\u2019t. And uh, from the start, I was\u2013 I was incorrigible. But uh, I guess after a while, I learned\u2013 I learned to uh\u2013 to cope with it and then I\u2013 I\u2013 I did better in school, but I was only in school for like a half of year, I was in kindergarten in Indiana, and then we moved out to uh, Redwood Valley, because uh, the people were starting to uh, call us up on the phone and shoot at us and just mess with our car and just anything\u2013 you know, they were just\u2013 they were starting to harass us, is all they was trying to do, and Dad, once again, we had to run. We had to get out of there, because he wanted to protect his family. And not just meaning us. There were other people that were loyal to him and\u2013 and he cared about, and we all made the move. But my mother and\u2013 and Jimmy and I were the first\u2013 first to go, \u2018cause we came out and we kind\u2019ve got the house and\u2013 and cleaned up and all that, before everybody else came. But uh\u2013 So I started\u2013 I started first grade in Redwood Valley, and if anything, it was worse. I mean, there was nobody<\/em>. I\u2013 We\u2013 We lived in\u2013 in Indianapolis, we lived in the\u2013 the\u2013 the poor area, and we lived in the black area, so I went to school with a lot of, you know\u2013 there were at least some black children in\u2013 in school, but there was nobody here. I mean, it was just\u2013 it was unbelievable. And they\u2013 I mean, they acted like they\u2019d never seen<\/em> a black person before, they acted like they were inhuman, you know, I\u2013 I\u2019d had to had\u2013 you know, I could\u2013 you\u2013 You\u2019d hear the chants every day, and eventually you just kinda got immune to it, but\u2013 At least one thing that was different about uh, Redwood Valley, I wasn\u2019t acceptable either. I mean, we were all<\/em> unacceptable. My\u2013 my brothers and sisters were unacceptable because they were colored, and I<\/em> was unacceptable because I accepted them<\/em>. So uh, at least I could understand that, I mean, I could understand that people\u2013 (Pause) people would be people. But at least I felt like uh\u2013 I once again had an identification with my family, and they\u2013 I\u2013 I didn\u2019t have to worry about them resenting me. (Pause)<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Uh, pretty much all my early years, I\u2013 I mean, I knew that\u2013 that we were different<\/em>, that people saw us as different, and that we weren\u2019t, you know, that\u2013 well, just that we were different, but\u2013 but I always thought that they would just stay there, I mean, I would have my family, we would feel how we<\/em> feel, and\u2013 and everyone else would feel how they<\/em> feel, and that I could\u2013 it would stay that way, and then\u2013 then I\u2013 it all one day just kinda all came crashing down on me, when\u2013 that\u2013 that that wasn\u2019t true, because uh\u2013 I was about 12 years old, uh, I was out in the parking lot\u2013 (Pause) I was out in the parking lot and uh, somebody sh\u2013 Dad got shot and I\u2019m just\u2013 you know, I just remember the loud noises and I just\u2013 I don\u2019t know any\u2013 and all the people when I ever\u2013 you know, there were hundreds of people around, and he was out seeing the people and, it just\u2013 you know, it just hit me hard, because at that\u2013 that\u2013 at that time, he was doing what he\u2019d done all his life, reaching out to people, showing them love, giving them something they\u2019d never had before, and he\u2013 he\u2013 and all I saw was\u2013 you know, I heard the noises and he was slammed hard on his face and\u2013 and uh, I don\u2019t know, that was\u2013 it\u2013 it was traumatic for me, but\u2013 but then, at that time, I came to realize how\u2013 how far people would go to uh\u2013 to wipe out anything they didn\u2019t understand, or, you know, even\u2013 even worse than that, that they could uh, uh, hinder their\u2013 their exploits. And uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/strong> How did it happen that you\u2013 Describe the (unintelligible word) where it happened? How?<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Stephan Jones:<\/strong> Uh, I remember, we were in Redwood Valley at the Temple we had there, and there\u2019d been some\u2013 there was a big weekend meeting and we had\u2013 they had had\u2013 they had the band outside and everything, and everybody was eating outside in the parking lot, it was kinda like\u2013 kinda like a big picnic\u2013 pic\u2013 (coughs) a big picnic (clears throat) and you know, Dad had come out, like he always did, to give everyone as\u2013 as the best of his ability, everyone attention, and\u2013 and love, and uh, I was over with a bunch of the guys, we\u2019d just played some basketball, and we were talking, you know, and joking around and they were\u2013 they were teasing me about some\u2013 about this girl I liked or something, and uh, then\u2013 you know, the band had been playing loud and everything, and they had stopped, and then I just heard three really loud noises, and I looked in that direction, I thought it was a drum or something, and I\u2013 I saw Dad, you know, slammed down on his stomach, and all I remember, that I just started screaming, you know, a high-pitched loud scream, I didn\u2019t know what else to do, I just\u2013 I mean, it was kinda like everything just happened, I mean, it just came crashing down on me. I didn\u2019t know what had happened, I didn\u2019t know\u2013 you know, I didn\u2019t\u2013 I had no familiarity with any kind of guns or anything, I didn\u2019t know what it\u2013 what it\u2013 what it\u00ad was. And\u2013 because I remember he had reached out and touched some woman\u2019s hand, and it was like, right when he did it, he just\u2013 he fell down. (stumbles over words) It wasn\u2019t just falling down, though, it was like something had just\u2013 you know, a\u2013 a big weight had just come down on his back and slammed<\/em> him down. But uh\u2013 I remember that\u2013 that, you know\u2013 I know, if anybody woulda thought, I mean, I know, from the way he was hi\u2013 hit, that the person had to come over\u2013 we had a great vineyard on the\u2013 uh, around our house, all around the property, and you just\u2013 because\u2013 from the uh, way he was shot and the way he was standing, you know<\/em> that\u2019s where it came from, and I know<\/em> he knew, I know he did. Because he was\u2013 he was facing right\u2013 he was hit\u2013 he was hit in the stomach, but uh\u2013 he\u2013 and\u2013 and\u2013 I remember now, I thought my dog\u2013 I had a big dog, his name was Husky, I thought he was scared, because he went charging out into this vineyard, you know, I thought he was scared of the gun, or the\u2013 the f\u2013 the shots and\u2013 because Dad pointed and said, No, it\u2019s over there, it\u2019s over this way, because, you know, I know now that he knew that\u2013 that he woulda\u2013 people woulda torn him apart because\u2013 I remember this\u2013 this uh\u2013 this old guy, Richmond Stahl, who I\u2019ve always liked, you know, I mean, he\u2019s a\u2013 he\u2019s a drunk<\/em> and, you know, everybody calls him a good-for-nothing, and\u2013 I mean\u2013 an\u2013 like he was\u2013 you know, he\u2013 and just that, he was good for nothing, but I\u2019ve always identified with him, because, I don\u2019t know, I f\u2013 I knew a lot of religious people, a lot of people that so\u2013 you know, uh, thought they had their morals together, but they were so<\/em> phony, I mean, there was just\u2013 I\u2019d always remember the phoniness, I never\u2013 uh, I never got anything<\/em> out of them but phoniness, I mean, it just kind of\u2013 uh, there was a\u2013 they had an aura<\/em> about them, I mean, you just picked<\/em> it up every time you got around them, you knew<\/em> somebody that was\u2013 (pause) oh\u2013 but I just remember Richmond, he\u2013 he re\u2013 looked around and all he saw was a pick, and he was si\u2013 sick, he had had\u2013 he was having trouble with his heart, and he picked that pick up, and I just know that if he woulda got hold of that person that they would\u2019ve\u2013 uh, they wouldna survived it. And Dad knew this, and so he steered them wrong, but\u2013 (Pause) but\u2013 (Pause) uh\u2013 To this day, I don\u2019t know who did it, and I don\u2019t know what it was done with, I guess it was a\u2013 a pistol, a handgun but\u2013 but I never saw the person, but it kind of made me realize that, from then on it would be\u2013 there\u2019d be one hell of a fight, I mean, we would\u2013 it would be\u2013 it would be more<\/em> than just uh, a disagreement, it wouldn\u2019t be a conflict, it would be\u2013 they would be constantly trying to snuff out\u2013 snuff us out, because they just couldn\u2019t\u2013 some people\u2013 I mean, there\u2019re different reasons we\u2013 some people, they just knew that the wa\u2013 what\u2013 the way of life Dad was trying to bring about would\u2013 would uh\u2013 would go against their\u2013 their\u2013 (pause) their different way\u2013 you know, their\u2013 their exploitation and the way they wanted to make money, you know, everybody wanted to do their own thing, they didn\u2019t care about who they hurt, and there were other people that knew<\/em> their selfish way of life, and they knew it was wrong, and every time they saw us, they were reminded that it was wrong. For that reason they wanted to get rid of us, and\u2013 and then there were just people that didn\u2019t understand us and\u2013 and, mo\u2013 for the most part when\u2013 when people don\u2019t understand something, they\u2013 they strike out against it. But I think that was the time that\u2013 that I\u2013 I realized that\u2013 that it wasn\u2019t going to be easy.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Uh\u2013 Like I said, from that point on, it was like\u2013 you know\u2013 a\u2013 a fight, just a fight, I mean, we just thought we were just holding out just for a few days longer, and I always felt that way, I never kinda expected to last much longer. I mean\u2013 (Pause) Either we would uh, be totally snuffed out or we would change the way we felt, I mean, that was the only way of doing it. And uh, I guess\u2013 I mean, I know<\/em> that we finally realized that there was\u2013 people had been uh, given just\u2013 just<\/em> enough to make them satisfied, because for the most part, uh, human beings and animals in general are uh\u2013 They\u2019re self\u2013 I mean, they\u2019re\u2013 they\u2019re worth\u2013 If they\u2019re doing okay, that\u2019s fine, that\u2019s all they need, they\u2013 you know, they\u2013 and uh, there was nobody will\u2013 willing to\u2013 to\u2013 to\u2013 to change<\/em> anything. So it was kinda like, you know, a waste of time. And you know, Dad knew that he had a couple of thousand people that acted like they wanted something<\/em>, and they wanted to change, or they wanted\u2013 they didn\u2019t\u2013 they weren\u2019t\u2013 they knew<\/em> their way of life was wrong, and they knew that, you know, they just weren\u2019t happy. So, I guess they just\u2013 that if least if he was gonna\u2013 you know, if he couldn\u2019t\u2013 it\u2013 it\u2019d be better to do something for these<\/em> few people than nothing at all for anybody. And uh, we moved down here.<\/p>\n

And I came down early, you know, and all that was down here was the people that came originally and some\u2013 and a few other guys that\u2013 that uh, had had so much trouble in the States that they were just on their way to uh\u2013 to uh, prison. And Dad knew it, and we all knew it, and\u2013 and it was the parents\u2019 decision to\u2013 to uh, send them here, (Pause) because we all expec\u2013 we all expected to come anyway, eventually. And just from the time that they left till I got down there, which was like a\u2013 like a couple or few months, the change in them, it just\u2013 it\u2013 it was\u2013 it was\u2013 it was phenomenal, I mean they\u2013 they\u2013 they felt<\/em>\u2013 I mean, they\u2013 I don\u2019t know, I just like\u2013 like, let\u2019s say uh, Ron [Ronnie James]. You know, I mean, he just\u2013 he didn\u2019t care if anybody\u2013 was constantly something, I mean, I just thought\u2013 I mean, he was what I considered a punk<\/em> in the States. I mean, I just had no time for guys like him, and now I come down here, you know, and\u2013 and uh, he works and like, he\u2019s always\u2013 I don\u2019t know, he brightens up my day, because (unintelligible word), you know, I might feel down or something, and he just\u2013 I mean, he\u2019s funny, you know, and\u00ad\u2013 and uh, he cares<\/em>, you know, he points out little things that I\u2019ve<\/em> even stopped noticing because I uh, you\u2013 you know, I felt like it didn\u2019t do any good, because you just sat there and you noticed it, and\u2013 and I even\u2013 there was times that I would mention it to people, and they\u2019d just look at me like, you know, you\u2019re weird<\/em>, you know, who\u2013 who\u2013 who cares about\u2013 who cares? It\u2019s not happening to you, it\u2019s\u2013 you know\u2013 and uh, it feels good to me to know that\u2013 that there\u2019s somebody else that\u2013 I mean, he\u2019s pointing it out to me<\/em>. And uh, that\u2019s been good for me. And it\u2019s also\u2013 I\u2019ve\u2013 I\u2019ve seen that change in everybody, because, at least now Dad\u2013 I mean, he\u2019s\u2013 he\u2019s\u2013 he\u2019s just\u2013 he\u2019s worked to the point that he\u2019s\u2013 he\u2019s, you know, ready to fall any minute, but at least he\u2019s been able to work with these people and get something into their heads, you know, get feeling<\/em> into their heads. And\u2013 and it just\u2013 you get the feeling that people care, at least you know, somebody cares, and that they\u2013 they\u2019re trying<\/em> to at least. (tape edit)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/strong> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Stephan Jones:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know. Here, I don\u2019t know, I guess I see my role as a\u2013 as\u2013 I don\u2019t know, I kinda of think of myself as an identification point for\u2013 for guys my age and\u2013 and people in general, because Dad no longer can\u2013 I mean, he\u2013 he does<\/em> the\u2013 to the best of his ability, but he no longer can be that like he used to be, you know. Uh\u2013 That\u2019s why I don\u2019t carry\u2013 I mean, they want me to get into more of the administrative part, you know, and I\u2019ve gotten into, you know, like the\u2013 that\u2013 the Steering Committee and stuff, but I still feel like I\u2019ve gotta stay down, you know. Not that the\u2013 Not that physical labor is the only work there is, I know that\u2019s not true, but\u2013 but just a\u2013 around guys, I mean, I feel like my\u2013 the way to give leadership, and the only way I got it from Dad, is just as a person\u2013 you know, is it a\u2013 I don\u2019t know, on a personal basis. It wasn\u2019t from just him preaching to me, it was, you know\u2013 I got it from him<\/em>. And uh, that\u2019s the best way to get it across<\/em> to a lot of these guys, it\u2019s not to just throw<\/em> it at them, and to uh\u2013 uh, say you\u2019re wrong for feeling that way, or\u2013 or uh, you know, preaching at \u2018em what\u2019s right, I mean, they don\u2019t\u2013 they won\u2019t\u2013 they\u2019ll\u2013 they\u2019ll rebel<\/em> against that. I just feel like it\u2013 you had to take it gradually, you know, and point out little things, like\u2013 like with Ronnie, I know, you know, sometimes he\u2019ll make jokes about things that just shouldn\u2019t be, and I\u2019ll say, you know, Put yourself\u2013 Put\u2013 Put yourself or somebody you care about in that place, and try to feel that way, you know, about what\u2013 you know, how bad it would be. And uh\u2013 Also I, you know\u2013 I guess I\u2019ve seen myself as a play\u2013 a person with, you know, building this place, you know. But for the most part, I just\u2013 I just\u2013 (Pause) Also, I uh\u2013 I\u2019m uh\u2013 I\u2019m trying to (unintelligible word) to fight all the times and stuff, it\u2019s just\u2013 mostly was just trying to prove something, also it was a\u2013 you know, I had a lot of hostility, but I\u2019m trying to show by\u2013 and I think I\u2019m making progress by, you know, not fighting. I don\u2019t even think<\/em> about fighting anymore, and trying to be more loving with people and uh, I\u2019m trying to break down uh, competitiveness between, you know, young guys\u2013 I mean, that\u2019s all I can talk about, I don\u2019t know about\u2013 but\u2013 but guys, you know, competing over who\u2019s the strongest, you know, who can do the most work and everything, I\u2019m\u2013 I\u2019m gradually trying to break that down, but\u2013 I don\u2019t know, I kind of see myself as a\u2013 (Pause) the\u2013 the identification point, I mean, a person that, you know, carries it\u2013 I don\u2019t know. (Pause) I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/strong> (unintelligible beginning) your voice was loud enough.<\/p>\n

Stephan Jones:<\/strong> That would do better, \u2018cause it makes me feel like I\u2019m reciting (unintelligible word). But like I was saying, what I\u2013 what I mean by an identification point would be, I don\u2019t know, something that people could relate to because\u2013 I don\u2019t know\u2013 Uh. (Pause) Because like I look at somebody\u2013 and I mean, people I know who work hard, you know, and\u2013 and just\u2013 I\u2019m just seeing them break their backs, I mean, just\u2013 it\u2019s\u2013 but people don\u2019t see \u2018em enough, and people have no way of knowing<\/em>, you know, and they don\u2019t want<\/em> to know. I mean, for the most part, people just don\u2019t\u2013 out of any\u2013 out of nowhere just come up with\u2013 with feeling, I mean, you have to put it right in front of their face<\/em>, you know, they have to know<\/em>. And uh\u2013 (Pause) Because I know, like, Dad doesn\u2019t have the time<\/em> \u2013 right? \u2013 to, to uh, do\u2013 give me\u2013 give peo\u2013 everybody what he gave me, the personal<\/em>. Because I know it\u2019d\u2013 it has to be personal, you have to touch<\/em>, you have to be able to feel<\/em>, you know, before you can relate to it, you know, the peo\u2013 you\u2019re not gonna\u2013 somebody come up and tell you that\u2013 like even with, like, you were saying about Victor Jara, I mean, they can tell you what he went through, but you just don\u2019t identify as much\u2013 Like you identify more with, like you said, Johnny Spain, because you knew him, you know what I mean? And uh\u2013 So I feel like, it\u2019s my role to uh, in some way show them, you know, that\u2013 I mean, be<\/em> like they were<\/em>, you know, like, be like they were and like, what they saw important, and get to know them in that way, and gradually break it down, and\u2013 and, you know, lessen this image, you know, the big tough guy image, and take it slow, because you know, by\u2013 by feeding little things and, you know, a pat here, a pat there, s\u2013 or\u2013 or they point out you know, wow, you know, that was good, you say, uh, that ain\u2019t nothing, you know, that\u2013 that\u2019s\u2013 you know, that\u2019s not important, and just do it slow, because if you just walk up to a guy and start hugging him and (unintelligible word) kissing him, I mean, he\u2019s just gonna s\u2013 you know, he\u2019s gonna say, now, this guy\u2019s weird, you know, I mean, so\u2013 I mean, that\u2019s the way I see it, is to take it\u2013 take it slow, because you don\u2019t just totally chain\u2013 change people\u2019s way of thinking, you know, I mean, it\u2013 I mean, you just don\u2019t do it overnight, you just\u2013 it\u2013 it has to be taken slow. So. That\u2019s the way I look at it, you know. (tape edit)<\/p>\n

Well, for the most part, (unintelligible word) we went to school with were a lot of uh, liberal, you know, crapheads, I mean, you know\u2013<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/strong> At Drew.<\/p>\n

Stephan Jones:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/strong> What kind of school was Drew?<\/p>\n

Stephan Jones:<\/strong> It was a uh\u2013 It was a private\u2013 It was progressive, I mean, but they were all\u2013 a whole bunch of uh\u2013 Every teacher thought that they\u2013 their\u2013 they\u2013 they had the answer to the world, you know, I mean, they\u2019d (unintelligible word) us, they\u2013 they (unintelligible word), you know, good teachers, I mean, like, we had all college books, and they made you\u2013 they made it so you could understand it. But they\u2013 (unintelligible sentence)<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/strong> That\u2019s what ultimately turned you off of (unintelligible word)<\/p>\n

Stephan Jones:<\/strong> Not\u2013 No. Also, you could just see him, and you contem\u2013 I mean, I felt\u2013 I felt guilty about going to this school because, you know, it was uppity<\/em>, and, people would just be dropped off at school\u2013<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/strong> Rich people with kids?<\/p>\n

Stephan Jones:<\/strong> Huh?<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/strong> Rich people.<\/p>\n

Stephan Jones:<\/strong> Yes. People got dropped off in limousines, chauffeur-driven limousines of\u2013 guys in schools would drive up in their uh, Camaros and their\u2013 one girl had a Mercedes. I don\u2019t know if it was her parents\u2019 car or not. And uh, you just couldn\u2019t relate<\/em>, you couldn\u2019t relate to these people. You couldn\u2019t relate at all. I mean, we used to knock \u2018em on their ass a couple of times\u2013 you know, throwing stuff at \u2018em, they just were not ready for. I mean, they agreed<\/em> with me, most of them agreed with the way we believed, I mean, but they weren\u2019t ready for it, but\u2013 (Sighs) I don\u2019t know. And then\u2013 and then we\u2019d come home and we\u2019d be talking with kids in the Temple that weren\u2019t<\/em> going to this school, you know, and\u2013 and uh, (Pause) you just\u2013 even you felt\u2013 I mean, you just felt bad for them. You know, I\u2013 I\u2013 I\u2013 I really\u2013 I felt bad for them. And uh, I don\u2019t know, I never\u2013 (Pause) For the most part, that was it, and we knew the\u2013 the fantastic amount of money they were paying for the school, and uh, I just didn\u2019t feel it was worth it. Because I felt the only education I really was getting was from Dad, you know. And reading and writing would come\u2013 I mean, I know we were learning more than reading and writing, I\u2019d already learned how to read and write, but that was\u2013 that (unintelligible word) education was (unintelligible word), because I didn\u2019t think it would\u2013 would do any good.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/strong> So, just to give a little background, uh, how many students from the Temple went to Drew and for how long?<\/p>\n

Stephan Jones:<\/strong> Let me think? I\u2019d say\u2013<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/strong> (Yawns)<\/p>\n

Stephan Jones:<\/strong> I\u2019d say, 15? I\u2019m not\u2013 not\u2013 I can\u2019t be exact, but fifteen to 20, at the most. At the most.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/strong> Well, how long did they go there?<\/p>\n

Stephan Jones:<\/strong> Uh\u2013 Probably three months.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/strong> And then the students decided to withdraw from school?<\/p>\n

Stephan Jones:<\/strong> Um-hmm [Yes]. Yeah.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/strong> Because of the expense that it was costing the organization, and also because uh, you felt bad about receiving such a high quality education while others\u2013 other teenagers in the Temple were going to public schools?<\/p>\n

Stephan Jones:<\/strong> Right. Because like, one thing that would make me realize that with some of these\u2013 there were kids there that would go\u2013 had just gotten kicked out of other schools because they were so incorrigible, right? And they\u2019d\u2013 their parents would have\u2013 would\u2013 would have\u2013 you know, their parents were well-off enough to send them to this place, but they were still\u2013 like they were black\u2013 black kids, so they still rebelled, so they\u2013 they came to this<\/em> school, because uh, none\u2013 none of the public schools would have \u2018em, and uh, to be in class and have them called on, and just sit there, and\u2013 you know, you had just been called on before, and you knew the answer, you know, and you\u2019d run off a big thing, because\u2013 because, you know, a big intellectual spiel or whatever, and this kid would just\u2013 he\u2019d drag you right back down to what it was really like, you know, that\u2013 that there really was no education for\u2013 for uh\u2013 for\u2013 for the common folk. And, I don\u2019t know, it just kinda got too many\u2013 It\u2019s kind of a\u2013 a\u2013 a conflict that I just couldn\u2019t, you know\u2013 it just seemed a contradiction. All that we believed in, that were going to this school. You know what I mean?<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/strong> Mmm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Stephan Jones:<\/strong> And not all of us, you know, thought about it the way I did. I mean, some people just plain old wanted to go to public school and uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/strong> Just to hang out.<\/p>\n

Stephan Jones:<\/strong> Hmm?<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/strong> Some people wanted to go to public school just to hang out.<\/p>\n

Stephan Jones:<\/strong> Yeah. And uh\u2013 I don\u2019t know, I think what brought it about is like, I was\u2013 I played basketball, I was playing basketball in this gym, and this guy came and asked me what school I went to, and uh, he was from Washington High, and he wanted me to come play with them, play for them and everything, and\u2013 and uh\u2013 and then we got to talking about it and how we didn\u2019t like the place anyway, and I said, you know, it cost too much money anyway, and the guy could get\u2013 And it was, I don\u2019t know, he cou\u2013 he knew he could get me in the school, so I figured, you know\u2013 That\u2019s how it came about, I don\u2019t remember exactly how, but then we got to talking about it and how we all really hated it, because I was already cuttin\u2019\u2013 I was already cuttin\u2019 from Drew, because it just is\u2013 you know\u2013 It just seemed stupid.<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Okay uh\u2013 Uh\u2013 In September, we kinda\u2013 Everything was starting to point, you know, uh, things that were happening in\u2013 in government and things that were being said about us, and\u2013 and uh\u2013 just the whole, uh, trend in general was\u2013 was pointing towards a\u2013 a rightwing takeover, or you know, just\u2013 We didn\u2019t see it, we\u2013 we\u2013 we\u2013 it had becoming\u2013 it looked<\/em> like to us that\u2013 that uh, (Pause) our\u2013\u00a0our position here wasn\u2019t\u2013 wasn\u2019t secure any longer, and you know, like, we were expecting anytime for a\u2013 for\u2013 to see armed\u2013 you know, you know, to see s\u2013 to see an army coming up at us, you know, and uh, at that time, we were having a lot of harassment from I don\u2019t know who, we saw people come, and they\u2019d come in, you know\u2013 (Pause) with weapons and stuff and take shots at us, and just totally harassed us, and\u2013 and\u2013 and had us on edge 24 hours a day.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/strong> Previous to, you know, the actual day, what we call on the line here, there had been a direct and unequivocal assassination attempt on\u2013 on Jim Jones, because he was in his house, and there were shots fired from a high-powered rifle that came within inches of his head \u2013 right? \u2013 so it was\u2013 it was clear<\/em> to us there was a move to destroy us, and then there was a sudden, you know, quick uh\u2013 something happened in the government that we thought that, on that day<\/em>, there would be troops out to take over Jonestown. (quiet voice, second person?)<\/p>\n

Stephan Jones:<\/strong> And like uh\u2013 it was kinda like, you know, the fir\u2013 when the first time I\u2013 I saw Dad shot, it kinda\u2013 \u2018cause I\u2013 I had\u2013 I had uh, subconsciously<\/em>, I guess, kind of come to think of this as a, you know, uh, a world of its own, I mean, I thought that we could go on, you know, without any harassments from the outside, without any trouble, we could build\u2013\u00a0you know, I\u2013 just the\u2013 the whole idealistic trip and\u2013 and uh, it\u2019s kinda once again (unintelligible word) made me realize that uh, it\u2019s a struggle, wherever you\u2019re at, because uh, there\u2019s too many people that\u2019re living off\u2013 you know, that are\u2013 that are living good off\u2013 off other people\u2019s uh, oppression, and they do not want to see communism, and they know Dad, and they know, you know, his\u2013 his leadership, and they know his potential, and they know what he can do with people, and uh\u2013 I think they kind of see this as a kind of breeding ground for communism, right? And so, they want to snuff it out. (Pause)<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Okay, all I\u2013 all I remember is, like, you know, the first thing that\u2013 the first thing that happened, I mean, they didn\u2019t even expect it, is, you know, when Dad was shot at that night, and uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/strong> That was in like\u2013 That was like at the end of August or the very beginning of September, right?<\/p>\n

Stephan Jones:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/strong> 77.<\/p>\n

Stephan Jones:<\/strong> It was\u2013 It was, you know, it was 77. And like, we had just been down there talking to Dad. And uh\u2013 and me and Johnny [likely Moss Brown, could be Cobb] were walking up here and\u2013 and we heard it, and we came running back there and\u2013 and uh, right then, you know, my heart sunk, you know, I mean, because I\u2013 you know I realized that\u2013 that it was\u2013 you know, it\u2019s just gonna start up again, I just knew it. But uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/strong> So it brought back the whole extremely painful thing for you, of thinking that your Dad is a (unintelligible word under movement). Right?<\/p>\n

Stephan Jones:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/strong> \u2013just\u2013 just like, because you didn\u2019t know at the time whether he had or hadn\u2019t been, you know, walking away from the house. The thing that you\u2013 you saw him hit the cement, maybe about two years earlier.<\/p>\n

Stephan Jones:<\/strong> Right. It just\u2013 you know\u2013 It was almost just\u2013 I mean, it was just\u2013<\/p>\n

End of side 1<\/strong><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Interviewer: <\/strong>Okay, back to uh, (unintelligible word)<\/p>\n

Stephan Jones:<\/strong> Uh\u2013 Yeah. When\u2013 when uh, they took the\u2013 the\u2013 they shot (unintelligible word), I knew that uh\u2013 You know, I mean, it was the same feeling, I mean, that\u2013 you know, that\u2013 that there\u2019s no way that we\u2019re gonna\u2013 that we\u2019re gonna survive, uh, independently from the rest of the world, and that people are gonna sit back and watch us, you know, uh, build communism and\u2013 and\u2013 and uh\u2013 and uh\u2013 there\u2013 there\u2013 there\u2019s just no way, I mean, it\u2019s the same thing like, when\u2013 when Dad was sh\u2013 shot the first time, I thought that we could\u2013 you know, I knew people didn\u2019t agree with us and people were against us, but I thought they\u2019d just be content with the way they felt and\u2013 and we could, you know, stay, you know, to ourselves, but I know that there\u2019s no\u2013 no way, I mean, it was just, uh, the whole idea was to (unintelligible word) with it, that uh\u2013 that we\u2013 we were going to build separately from the rest of the world. And it kinda just hit me again, you know, the same feeling, I mean, I reacted to it\u2013 I didn\u2019t react to it the same way, you know, I\u2013 \u2018cause I\u2013 I had, you know\u2013 I\u2013 I\u2019d learned to cope with it, you know, but uh\u2013 but the same time, uh\u2013 I don\u2019t know. Like uh\u2013 to say like with\u2013 with Tim Swinney, you know, was supposed to be a\u2013 a big\u2013 you know, big burly tough guy, you know, that\u2019s supposed to, you know, supposed to be, you know, unapproachable and everything, he\u2019s so sweet. When we were in the last few\u2013 when we were in the last few minutes, what we were sure were the last few minutes that, uh, me and him were like a team, and we uh, just kind of broke down and just said, you know, it\u2013 I couldna gone down fightin\u2019 with a better guy<\/em>, you know, I mean, and we\u2013 we uh, hugged and he just s\u2013 said, you know, well, this is it, kind of, and uh, that felt good to me. And like we\u2019ve been closer ever since, you know, we\u2019ve been able to relate a lot\u2013 lot better ever since, because we both felt distant, because we both had this\u2013 this\u2013 this tough image. Not necessarily\u2013 I don\u2019t think that we<\/em> had that image of ourselves, but everybody else has the image, and we didn\u2019t know how to relate to each other, because we didn\u2019t know how much\u2013 like, I didn\u2019t know if he believed it about himself, and I didn\u2019t\u2013 you know, and I\u2019m sure he didn\u2019t know whether I believe\u2013 believed it about myself. And we didn\u2019t know how to uh, break the ice, and it kinda was a\u2013 a blessing, I guess.<\/p>\n

But the thing that hit me really hard was that, uh, uh, I was separate from Dad. I mean, I knew<\/em> Dad. I knew<\/em>\u2013 I knew<\/em> Dad well enough that, if anything went down, which, you know, we saw as\u2013 as inevitable, and we\u2013 we just\u2013 it was just a matter of time, I knew Dad would be the first to go, I mean, I knew he\u2019d be right there. And all my brothers were with Dad. They went around with him everywhere, and I was separated from him, because I knew a little bit about uh, warfare and stuff, a little\u2013 I mean, you know, if I had done a little study and a little firsthand experience, and I\u2013 so I was\u2013 it was required of me to\u2013 to be, you know, on this\u2013 on security, to be guarding the place, so I was\u2013 I was separated from him, and so, you know\u2013 I kinda resented it, because all my life I\u2019ve felt that I had made more in a\u2013 more<\/em> of an effort than my other brothers to\u2013 to\u2013 to relate to Dad and\u2013 and try to please him, try to be close to him, and I wasn\u2019t hung up on a lot of the\u2013 the stuff that the other guys are. Or were. And\u2013 and I always would fan\u2013 fancy myself in my fantasies, you know, about coming in at the last minute, \u2018cause I knew someday, they were gonna finally get Dad and he was gonna be on trial or something, or they were going to have him back to the wall, and I\u2019d come in at the last minute and just, you know\u2013 come in with him and we\u2019d\u2013 we\u2019d fight together to the finish, all right, and\u2013 you know, and\u2013 I guess, just like the rest\u2013 you know, uh, it\u2019s just like my whole life has been\u2013 nothing has worked out the way I\u2013 I\u2019d like it to, and (unintelligible word)\u2013 and I was stuck off away from Dad and I knew we were going to die away from each other and\u2013 and uh\u2013 and I\u2019d probably never see him again. Yeah. And uh\u2013 I remember how good I felt when uh, he\u2013 basically, when the people saw the\u2013 these guys on the edge of the bush, and\u2013 and he called me over there, and (unintelligible word) I just\u2013 I was just\u2013 you know, I was just praying that it would happen then, because I knew<\/em> it was gonna happen, and I\u2019d hoped they\u2019d come in, \u2018cause I was with Dad. But I remember uh, looking at the\u2013 all the people and\u2013 and how they uh\u2013 you know, they\u2019d never experienced this before. You know, they\u2019d never been on the edge of death or, you know, on the\u2013 They\u2013 They\u2019d never uh, identified with\u2013 with dying, or fighting what they believed\u2013 you know, for what they believed. Because all my\u2013 you know, I\u2019d always pulled away from all the\u2013 all the people because I\u2013 I\u2013 you know, I felt that they had rode in on\u2013 on\u2013 on Dad\u2019s uh, love and his compassion, and never had to uh\u2013 like I\u2013 you know, we\u2019d had to suffer. You know, we\u2019d had to suffer with the\u2013 Dad, so it was like, we\u2019d paid for the love we got, you know, and\u2013 and I always felt like they just got<\/em> it, you know, and\u2013 and I resented<\/em> it, and it was kinda like the thing that\u2013 that that whole six days brought me closer and closer to\u2013 to\u2013 to the people because I felt like they were now experiencing, you know, what I\u2019d experienced in all\u2013 you know, in my 19 years, and I felt now that maybe they\u2019d be more appreciative of what they had and\u2013 and I felt they deserved<\/em> it more now, you know. So I think that\u2013\u00a0I think that\u2019s, you know\u2013 I think the\u2013 the\u2013 the\u2013 the six day\u2013 the\u2013 the crisis was a\u2013 a\u2013 a blessing, it was a hell of a blessing, because it brought me back to reality, it brought me closer to people, and uh, because that was my main flaw, I mean, if I ever wanted to get anything done for people, I needed to be able to relate to them better, and I had a hell of a time relating to people because I resented them so much. And I think it was uh, one of the best things that ever happened to me. (Pause) (tape edit)<\/p>\n

So like, uh\u2013 All I know is when I came down here, I mean, at first I didn\u2019t want to stay because Dad was going back, you know, and I\u2019d always felt\u2013 seeing myself as Dad\u2019s personal overseer, you know, I mean, I was the one\u2013\u00ad (Pause) (sighs) I\u2013 I re\u2013 I honestly felt like all the security I would look at\u2013 you know, the guys who were watching over Dad and stuff, and\u2013 Big\u2013 It was kind of a big tough guy thing, I don\u2019t\u2013 but I never felt like they took interest in it, you know, and I\u2013 I always did, what\u2013 worry about him and watching and stuff, and I was worried<\/em> about him going back there and having nobody, which is unfair, because I know there were people that did take concern in\u2013 in\u2013 in his personal welfare. But after I was here, you know, everything started\u2013 I started to have a purpose<\/em>, you know, because I would\u2013 (pause) I just started rebelling against everything, you know, I\u2019d get up in the morning, and right off the bat, I mean, if I didn\u2019t have my\u2013 you know, it was just\u2013 but I got down here and I started having hours again, you know, I\u2019d wake up at a certain time, I knew what I had to do. You know, in\u2013 in the\u2013 in the States, I never knew what I was going to do, I didn\u2019t know, uh\u2013 I had no structure. And I got here, and I could go out, and work, and uh\u2013 long as I was doing something\u2013 because in the States, I mean, you knew what was right, but you knew you weren\u2019t doing it. Uh\u2013 You knew you weren\u2019t doing a damn thing, I mean, like in\u2013 you know\u2013 (Pause) If anything<\/em>, you were turning people off, (unintelligible word), I mean, I<\/em> was turning people off, by the way I\u2013 I approached everything, \u2018cause I was such a hostile\u2013 I was such a hostile person, such a hostile human being. And uh, I don\u2019t know, I came\u2013 I came to myself there, I think I\u2013 I got out of the\u2013 (Pause) the big machismo thing, because like, that\u2013 that woulda been, I don\u2019t know, I mean, it made it hard for me to\u2013 I mean, I could always relate to guys, I guess, I mean, that\u2013 that\u2013 that was only half of the\u2013 you know, half the people, I mean\u2013 and it made it easier on me. I came out of the machismo thing, and I\u2013 because I\u2013 I became interested in\u2013 in my work and getting something done, and it wasn\u2019t important anymore, you know, because it\u2013 this is\u2013 it\u2019s the atmosphere in the States, you know, you gotta be tough. In reality, you gotta be\u2013 you gotta have a tough image, I guess, to survive. I mean, to uh, get people to leave you alone. I think I\u2013 I had acquired that also, to get people within the Temple itself to\u2013 to leave me alone, you know, because I figured if I was mean, you know, people wouldn\u2019t come up and talk to me, because I saw what they were doing to Dad, you know. They took advantage. But down here, I could think about it, you know, and I got out of it and everything, and now it\u2019s helped me because I can relate to uh\u2013 to females too, I mean, I\u2013 because I know\u2013 I know what a\u2013 what a bitch it is to be a female, and you know, every guy walks by you and look at\u2013 looks at you and just, you know, just like, you know, this\u2013 this sexual (unintelligible word). You know, I mean, they\u2013 they just\u2013 I mean, I\u2013 they look at you like, you know, that\u2019s all that\u2019s on their mind and\u2013 and now I feel like that uh, I don\u2019t come across that way, and I don\u2019t think anybo\u2013 I don\u2019t think there\u2019s\u2013 there\u2019s any\u2013 any woman (unintelligible) there\u2019s anybody that thinks I\u2019m (unintelligible word). Because I\u2013 That\u2019s not important to me. I mean, what\u2019s important is relating to them, I mean, and uh, letting them know that there\u2019s somebody here that gives\u2013 cares about what they think, and gives a damn about their mind and\u2013 and I uh\u2013 I guess they don\u2019t\u2013 it\u2019ll\u2013 it\u2019ll make it easier for them to\u2013 like, if (unintelligible word) they feel like they gotta uh, prove<\/em> that they\u2019re not uh\u2013 they\u2019re not objects, and when they do it, they come on too strong, and when they come on too strong, they just uh\u2013 they turn people off, you know, and they make a guy\u2013 they make guys hostile and make guys worse, and uh\u2013 (Pause) I don\u2019t know. Like let\u2019s take Ronnie, right? Uh, the whole big thing with him has been trying to get him to appreciate the companion he has now [Shirley Ann Edwards], you know, and to respect her, because she\u2019s a\u2013 she\u2019s a\u2013 uh, a strong\u2013 I mean, she\u2019s\u2013 \u2018cause she comes on pretty strong, she lets you know what she thinks and everything, and he used to come saying, you know\u2013 She\u2013 she had the nerve, you know, to say this or that, and I said she (unintelligible word)\u2013 and then I\u2013 I changed the word nerve, I said, she had the right<\/em>, she\u2013 she had the right to say that. And uh, I got him to respect<\/em> it, and to appreciate it, you know, because one thing I always hated is\u2013 is to know uh\u2013 have people believe<\/em>\u2013 I mean, they\u2013 they honestly believe something, and instead of checking it out with you<\/em>, they go on believing it, and it gets worse and worse and worse, and half the time\u2013 more<\/em> than half the time when they come check it out with you, it\u2019s not the way they think it is, and it\u2019s not the way it looks<\/em>. And uh, I just think that uh, communication between people would be\u2013 I mean, uh\u2013 the world would be better, you know, I mean, it sounds dumb, but the world would be better if people would uh, say how they felt right then, and get it out at\u2013 you know, get it out of the way, because then you could\u2013 you could feel at ease, you could feel like uh\u2013 you know\u2013 you know if the person thought something about you, they\u2019d say it. But now, you\u2019re\u2013 you\u2019re always paranoid. Does this person really like me, or does this person feel this? I mean\u2013 You know what I\u2019m saying. I\u2013 I mean\u2013 If you knew the person would come to you when they were mad, you never worry about them being mad, because you\u2019d know it. I mean, there\u2019s no\u2013<\/p>\n

Interviewer: <\/strong>It\u2019s true.<\/p>\n

Stephan Jones:<\/strong> And uh\u2013 So\u2013 That helped me (unintelligible under moving mike)<\/p>\n

(tape edit)<\/p>\n

Stephan Jones:<\/strong> I mean\u2013 this\u2013 this\u2013 the\u2013 the best way of saying it, and (unintelligible), in the States, I felt impotent, I mean, I just felt\u2013 I felt\u2013 I mean, I felt all the time\u2013 I mean, you\u2013 you\u2013 you just can\u2019t\u2013 you can look anywhere in the States \u2013 right? \u2013 I mean, you can just open your eyes, I mean, anywhere, and you see something you want to change \u2013 right? \u2013 there\u2019s not a place, there\u2019s\u2013 there\u2019s nothing\u2013 there\u2019s no<\/em> place that there\u2019s not something that can be changed. And for the most part, everything<\/em> needs to be changed. And\u2013 and you know there\u2019s nothing, there\u2019s not a goddamn thing you can do, because people don\u2019t relate to you, and\u2013 and uh\u2013 (Pause) And if you want to take it slow, like I\u2019m talking about, you can\u2019t get to know<\/em> a guy uh, well enough, you know, because right off the bat, the tough\u2013 it\u2019s the competitive tough guy conflict, and there\u2019s no real way of expressing yourself, other than to say you\u2019re a jerk, or even if they know you\u2019re right, they\u2019ll say you\u2019re a jerk, because they know that\u2019s what you\u2019re suppo\u2013 they\u2019re supposed to say, and you know\u2013 So there\u2019s nothing you can do, I mean, you just sit there, you know, and you go by and you see\u2013 (Pause) You see somebody getting beat on, and you see somebody getting\u2013 you see your friends, you know, I mean, I\u2019ve been walking with guys I\u2013 I hung out with, and they\u2019ve been, you know, arrested, you know. And uh\u2013 You\u2013 You get searched along with them and everything, and you\u2013 I mean, just the whole mess, it\u2019s just\u2013 you feel im\u2013 just\u2013 just\u2013 just put it out, you just feel impotent, and I come down here, and I feel just the opposite, you know, I mean, I feel potent as hell. I mean, I feel like I can go out, I mean, I\u2019m building this place, I mean\u2013 Like when I came here, I mean, it was clear that there was\u2013 there was no cottages, you know, I mean, that was\u2013 that was bush over there. There were no dorms. All that was here was the original community building, the office, and the warehouse and the shop.<\/p>\n

Interviewer: <\/strong>Oh, Christ.<\/p>\n

Stephan Jones:<\/strong> And uh, boy\u2013 God\u2013 To feel so uh, worthless and then to feel so uh, alive and, you know, I mean, like, I felt like I was doing something, I mean, I\u2013 I knew I was building something, and that the big thing was to get as much as we could built before everybody came down, you know. I wanted to make a city out of this place, you know. But\u2013 (Pause) It was great, and it still is. But, yeah, it\u2019s still is\u2013 it\u2019s still good. And like, that gets back to\u2013 When people<\/em> came down here, I didn\u2019t think they\u2019d appreciated it. They weren\u2019t appreciative. And that\u2013 that six day with the crisis going on, it\u2013 I think it\u2013 It made them appreciate this place more, you know. I mean, at least<\/em> you own something now, you know. At least you know you ain\u2019t\u2013 I mean, you ain\u2019t\u2013 know you ain\u2019t just a (unintelligible word under interviewer sniff), you just ain\u2019t borrowing something, I mean, you know this is yours. And I really<\/em> got\u2013 I mean, I think I\u2019ve got that. I mean, a few of the other guys who were down here before probably have that feeling more than\u2013\u00ad than\u2013 than most people do, because, you know, we\u2013 we put it up, we built it, right? And uh, well, that\u2019s like, like\u2013 when I see somebody go out trashing, you know, well, I really\u2013 I mean, it\u2013 you know. It\u2019s like they\u2019re messing with mine. But I don\u2019t see it that way (unintelligible word), I see it as everybody\u2019s, because that\u2019s\u2013 that was the way we looked at it when we were building<\/em> it, we were building\u2013 we weren\u2019t building it for us<\/em>, we were building it for\u2013 for everybody<\/em>. So (unintelligible word) I resent it when people\u2013 It\u2019s\u2013 I mean, it gets back to like with Dad, you know. People ride him, they didn\u2019t have to go through the shit, you know, that he had to to build the place, and they ride him, and they don\u2019t\u2013 they don\u2019t uh\u2013 they don\u2019t respect like I respected Dad and I respected\u2013 I appreciated what he\u2019s giving, and they don\u2019t appreciate it. And after the\u2013 the crisis, now they appreciate it more. So it\u2013 like I say, you know, it gets back to that\u2013 that one thing, you know, that people\u2013 unless they\u2019re made<\/em> to uh, appreciate\u2013 if they\u2019re just given something, if they\u2019re just handed something, they don\u2019t appreciate it. And that\u2019s why it\u2019s good for people to have to go through something to get it. (Pause) I\u2013 I (unintelligible word) I just tell you, this place has given me some meaning, \u2018cause boy, I\u2019d lost it all. I really had. I\u2019d lost any kind of meaning, and I just felt like there was this (unintelligible phrase), you know. And I mean, I just\u2013 (Pause) I had no meaning. And now I got some meaning, you know, and every time I see them kids, and every time I see a little guy\u2013 and they come out here, you know, and they\u2019re so alive, you know, I mean, there ain\u2019t nobody telling them to shut their mouths when they got something to say. Even if it\u2019s wrong. You tell<\/em> them it\u2019s wrong, but you don\u2019t\u2013 you know, you don\u2019t discipline them for it, you know, they\u2019re young enough and they\u2019re\u2013 they\u2019re responsive and\u2013 responsive enough that you can tell<\/em> them, you know, and explain to them. (unintelligible) some of them been\u2013 being raised totally different, and it\u2013 it feels so good to me, because I\u2019ve wanted\u2013 that\u2019s one thing I really had wanted for everybody, to\u2019ve at least had what I had with Dad and Mom, too. They were both\u2013 They were an (unintelligible word) ideal combination. And uh\u2013 (Pause) It\u2019s good to see us, you know, you know, (unintelligible) be raised the right way. But I think, I mean, it\u2019s just gonna be\u2013 I\u2013 I think\u2013 I think I\u2019m watching evolution, right here, you know, I mean, the process, I mean, I\u2019m just\u2013 they\u2019re going to be totally\u2013 it\u2019s gonna be\u2013 they\u2019re going to be su\u2013 superior human beings.<\/p>\n

Interviewer:<\/strong> When you say evolution, evolution from what to what? I mean\u2013<\/p>\n

Stephan Jones:<\/strong> From (Pause) selfish human beings to uh, caring<\/em> human beings, you know, motivated not by selfishness but by caring, you know what I\u2019m saying, I mean, they feel<\/em>, I mean, they feel, I mean\u2013 just\u2013 One of the things\u2013 Another thing that keeps me going, and that\u2013 and all I need to\u2013 to make me happy, because for the most part, everything that\u2013 I\u2019ve never had a\u2013 The only foundation I\u2019ve had is Dad, and it was with Dad and Mom\u2019s love, especially Dad, that\u2019s the only real foundation, \u2018cause\u2013 \u2018cause for the most part, we\u2019ve had to move around, and\u2013 you know, I\u2019ve never been able to be\u2013 become attached to anything, but I\u2019ve always had one thing that has made me feel good about myself and about\u2013 about everything is that I feel<\/em>, and I look around and I see a lot of people that do not feel, you know, that don\u2019t<\/em> feel. To be able to look at\u2013 you know, uh, something and say, you know, appreciate, I mean, I appreciate<\/em> things that other people don\u2019t even notice, you know, not\u2013 not all<\/em> other people, but a lot of people.<\/p>\n

Interviewer: <\/strong>Like what?<\/p>\n

Stephan Jones:<\/strong> Uh\u2013 (Pause) I don\u2019t know. I laugh at things that other people don\u2019t even find funny, I uh\u2013 Oh, it\u2019s hard\u2013 hard to describe. But I just\u2013 Well, okay, I\u2019ll tell you one thing. Like, when I\u2019m with Lew, he\u2019s one of the\u2013 I think he\u2019s the brother I would identify with the most\u2013 most. (Pause) If I do something that makes him\u2013 there\u2019s an expression he gets on his face that nobody even no\u2013 nobody else even notices. I mean, they don\u2019t even know what I\u2019m talking about, but it\u2019s an expression, I\u2019ve known him long enough, when I see it, I mean, I just hurt so bad inside, you know. Like, I don\u2019t know, one time me and him (unintelligible phrase) a little argument, it was\u2013 he got physical, I didn\u2019t, but I mean\u2013 I saw that expression, and I feel so\u2013 that feel\u2013 I feel guilty for doing that to him, you know. But I mean, it makes me feel good to know that I feel, and I know that I won\u2019t do nothing\u2013 do anything (Pause) stupid<\/em>, because, you know, I won\u2019t hurt anyb\u2013 I mean, I will<\/em> hurt people, I\u2019m not perfect, you know, I mean, I know that I can avoid hurting people, because I\u2013 I\u2013 I at least identify, and I try to\u2013 you know, I try to know what\u2019s going through their head. That\u2019s the only way I can describe. (Pause) I feel. I mean, I\u2019m alive<\/em>, and you notice, a lot of people I think just go along and\u2013\u00a0you know\u2013 and take what they can get when they get it. (Pause)<\/p>\n

Recorded music for balance of tape<\/strong><\/p>\n

Tape originally posted May 2016<\/strong><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you. To return to the Tape Index, click here. To read the Tape Summary, click here. Listen to MP3 (Pt. 1, Pt. 2). (Editor\u2019s note: Because of the many verbal fillers and false starts in this original […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"parent":27291,"menu_order":403,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-66800","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/66800","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=66800"}],"version-history":[{"count":3,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/66800\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":66897,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/66800\/revisions\/66897"}],"up":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27291"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=66800"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}