{"id":68865,"date":"2017-03-15T15:59:40","date_gmt":"2017-03-15T22:59:40","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=68865"},"modified":"2023-07-11T17:06:04","modified_gmt":"2023-07-12T00:06:04","slug":"annotated-transcript-1021-a","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=68865","title":{"rendered":"Annotated Transcript Q1021-A"},"content":{"rendered":"

(Editor’s note: <\/strong>This tape was transcribed by Georgiana Mamlakah. The editors gratefully acknowledge her invaluable assistance.)<\/em><\/p>\n

To return to the Tape Index,\u00a0click here<\/a>.\u00a0
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Steven Katsaris:<\/strong> \u2013 uh, Noah, two Sundays ago when you were having a meeting at the fairgrounds I came uh, we got there at 11 o\u2018clock, and by 1 o\u2018clock I had another commitment and had to leave<\/em>, so I decided to come back last Sunday and uh, was here for an hour when I was asked to leave.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I never met you\u2013 I mean you must have got\u2013 uh, you were gone before I got here.<\/p>\n

Katsaris: <\/strong>\u2013 Yes. That\u2019s why I was so amazed, and that\u2019s why I\u2019m so happy to be here tonight.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> But where\u2013 uh, was there someone else too that was also with you that was asked to go?<\/p>\n

Katsaris: <\/strong>\u2013 Yes, uh, Dr. Eaton and uh, Maria [Katsaris] and I were here last Sunday together.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Will you try to communicate uh, this experience, and I<\/em>\u2013 I<\/em> knew it was a horrible hour but, as you mentioned, the mobility of this group. Not only do I<\/em> travel, but the whole church<\/em> travels, and we\u2019re getting ready to go to Los Angeles. And we couldn\u2019t find any time that we were certain of\u2013 certain of until September where we could really hit it, and I\u2013 I like to see things resolved quickly, if you can<\/em>, but I\u2013 I said if you didn\u2019t mind<\/em> coming at this unheard of hour, which I\u2019ve never even asked anyone to come at this late hour, believe me, it\u2019s not my pattern to ask people to in\u2013 interrupt their evening at uh, this hour.<\/p>\n

Katsaris:<\/strong> (unintelligible under Jones)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> But I thought if you\u2019d shown this much interest, it was our\u2013 it was our<\/em> responsi\u2013 our<\/em> responsibility to uh, certainly try to get together.<\/p>\n

Katsaris:<\/strong> Thank you for the invitation.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> But I\u2019m sure you can just give us a wealth of experience of that first time you came in. Now you came in while we were gone, and that would be a typ\u2013 a different type of uh, approach than when I was here, and even\u2013 then you came in a religious healing service. If you were there uh, Sunday a week ago, it was primarily healing, I would imagine. Spiritual healings, as I recall. In the fairgrounds, you\u2019re speaking? And uh, now I wish you had<\/em> uh, been able to come earlier. We\u2019ve had, oh, confrontations, we have four senior citizen homes, we have a convalescent sanatorium, we\u2019re purchasing another, and we\u2019re thinking of a youth<\/em> kind of a cooperative here where young people will\u2013 single people will be able to live of the\u2013 uh, this particular uh, will be girls, I guess, young ladies or brothers. We\u2019re not absolutely certain. And when you have this close-knit a family and a children\u2019s home of 40 acres\u2013 we have dormitories stretched between here and San Francisco, 61 young people in college, nine of them, for instance, in medicine. I don\u2019t know the breakdown [of] other fields. A lot<\/em> of the things arise that people don\u2019t<\/em> have when they just gingerly meet each other on Sunday morning at 11 o\u2019clock, from 11 until 12<\/em>. But when you live under the same roof<\/em>, as it were, uh, it\u2019s too bad we haven\u2019t met earlier. We have<\/em> midweek meetings, but they\u2019re this type, meetings where we would feel more<\/em> comfortable with people who we know and uh\u2013 Now uh, we\u2019re\u2013 we\u2019re glad to get to know<\/em> you, so that you\u2013 we\u2013 we\u2019ll be able to get together more often. But usually<\/em>, we uh, have been here<\/em> every\u2013 every midweek. We have a midweek full meeting. Two\u2013 two services. Because we can\u2019t get the congregation in this roof\u2013 under this roof, all of them at one time. But we\u2019re now<\/em> thinking of uh, making the main thrust of our effort in the Bay, coming up here for retreats. Uh\u2013 We\u2019ve not really decided fully, we were uh, hassling over that tonight, but we have a tremendous drawing power in the metropolitan area, and we\u2019ve got more to say really in a metropolitan area. We\u2019re\u2013 we\u2019re familiar with ghetto life, in that most of us came from that experience, by choice or by adoption. I was a director of the civil rights commission of a large city, and I lived in an interracial setting that was really a deprived neighborhood for about 13 years with my family, so in a sense, we don\u2019t feel that we have as much to offer<\/em> an agricultural community. We\u2019ve sort of adopted<\/em> this uh\u2013 we have made it a purpose<\/em> to not try to recruit many people locally. We\u2019ve run into a problem based on the\u2013 the liberalism of my<\/em> theology. Now the lady in front of you is very fundamentalist, she\u2019s Mrs. [Marceline] LeTourneau of the Assemblies of God background. Uh, you\u2019ve probably heard of LeTourneau Implement Company uh, family of some uh, rec\u2013 rec\u2013 recognition in the field of\u2013 of implement industry and uh, she\u2019s also well known \u2013 her family \u00ad\u2013 for their orientation to a full gospel. I don\u2019t know if you understand the charismatic uh\u2013 And she and I would\u2013 uh, would hold different\u2013 varying uh, points of view. I don\u2019t know just exactly, we don\u2019t bother about our differences, we have so much in common, we don\u2019t worry too much about our differences. We both believe in helping people. But Mother\u2019s our teacher, our main uh, Bible class teacher. She\u2019s in her middle eighties, and lively, and knows how to take her fundamentalism and apply it liberally<\/em>, but I<\/em> don\u2019t know how to do that too well. I\u2019m a liberal that doesn\u2019t uh, know too much how to apply my religion in the\u2013 with any fundamentalist tone, and in this community, as you\u2019re probably familiar \u2013 maybe yourself<\/em> even more orthodox than I \u2013 uh, this is quite a conservative community, theologically speaking. And we have found that when we make an effort here, what ha\u2013 what resulted a few years ago was we\u2019d get a husband, the wife wouldn\u2019t come, or we would get a wife, and the husband wouldn\u2019t come. And uh, maybe\u2013 we even have cases of it. I won\u2019t name names, but those of you who come\u2013 I see\u2013 Is one\u2013 Is Jack gone?<\/p>\n

Voice in Crowd:<\/strong> He had to go to work.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> He had to go to work. There one man here that suffered grossly<\/em>, uh\u2013 He is committed to integration, and he\u2019s committed to a ethical humanism, and his wife not only is not<\/em> committed, but I think his stand, maybe communications problem, maybe we haven\u2019t always interpreted, we tried very hard, we tried to carry our convictions as loose garments rather than trying to be offensive, but uh, she has become entrenched. And uh, more anti-black than ever, hate<\/em> almost, and uh, we\u2019ve tried<\/em> to uh, resolve this the best we can. We can\u2019t tell people\u2013 We almost told him to quit coming. We felt like it was such a hassle. [The] Family came in here one time, they came in with a\u2013 they were really disturbed, and used words that we don\u2019t want to repeat, racist words, and uh, real threatening, over the loss of their father from his former theological perspective, and even his\u2013 his attitude on race. They seemed to feel that this was a subversive movement, because we were (laughs) enacting the Bill of Rights. But after we\u2013 we let them say what they had to say and roll with the punches \u2013 that eased off \u2013 but in nearly every situation where we have made a (stumbles over words) uh, we never really proselytize, we never evangelize, we don\u2019t go from door to door, we make no uh, effort to win anyone here. But where people who have come across our paths have come in, it\u2019s unfortunate that there has not been more uh, solidarity of interest, there\u2019s not been the husband and the wife, but just one or the other. We have a few cases. Who\u2013 Who\u2013 How how many couples did come in from the Ukiah area \u2013 stand up \u2013 where you came together. They could get to know you. All white, of course. We didn\u2019t have anything uh\u2013 But all\u2013 Nearly everyone else grew up in the Bay or in the original Indiana\u2013 There\u2019s a sis\u2013 nurse there, a professional nurse. She didn\u2019t stand, but I guess she\u2019s getting ready to go to work. She is a long time worker here, member of a fundamentalist church. She didn\u2019t have a\u2013 (stumbles over words) an actual difficulty with her own immediate<\/em> family, because she\u2019s alone<\/em> now, but her mother<\/em> and her sisters<\/em> and her brother raised Hail Columbia over her coming\u2013 coming in. So we<\/em> felt that, if we want to do anything here to interpret the major co\u2013 concepts that we ha\u2013 felt were important, particularly brotherhood. We feel we do have a really viable experience in brotherhood. We can say without any question that we\u2019ve overridden uh, the racial problem. We felt that we were going to have to emphasize reaching outside people who didn\u2019t have these entrenched prejudices, and also local churches wouldn\u2019t feel so threatened. So we can gladly say we\u2019ve never taken anyone\u2019s members locally. In fact, most of you weren\u2019t church people, were you? How uh, we\u2013\u00a0a great number of you were agnostics. How many of you were agnostics or atheist? (Pause) That\u2019s a good section of the people that had no religious background, so in that sense we feel good that we didn\u2019t disrupt anyone else\u2019s religious orientation, and the rest of you were\u2013 How many came from fundamentalist backgrounds? (Pause) Wow! Fundamentalist\u2013 Fundamentalist. Some of you don\u2019t know what I mean. Furniture of heaven, temperature of hell, that jive, you know? Okay.<\/p>\n

Congregation:<\/strong> Laughs<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (chuckles) That\u2019s what I\u2019m talking about. (pause) I would probably say, I\u2019m sort of an agnostic in a sense. There\u2019s a\u2013 a wonderful extra sensory power that works. It\u2019s compatible with what I see in the Scripture as the nine gifts (I Corinthians 12:7-11). <\/span>I\u2019m distraught that I cannot effect cures for all that are sick. We have effected cures for phenomenal things. We\u2019ve seen phenomenal things happen. Cancers healed, which is unheard of, terminal\u2013 terminal cancers. Terminal cancer sitting back there, the woman, she was in really bad condition, there\u2019s a woman back there had terminal cancer. Miss DuPont that had terminal cancer. Bea Morton (stumbles over words) works with a government agency. Several. And then we\u2019ve had uh, nearly any kind of phenomena you mention take place, but in the sense that you\u2019re not a panacea. You\u2013 You don\u2019t\u2013 it doesn\u2019t cause you, it doesn\u2019t inspire you quickly to make uh, lot of platitudes, lot of platitudes about the universe, so I just simply say, quite compatible with Christ teachings. I think they\u2019ve never been tried, so I\u2019d like to give them a whirl. If your enemy hungers, feed him (from Matthew 25: 35-45, which appeared on Peoples Temple letterhead).<\/span> We really can\u2019t say Christianity\u2019s failed. Maybe the church<\/em> has, but we\u2019ve never really tried Christianity. But I myself\u2013 I make no real concern about immortality other than the immortality in my work<\/em>. I believe<\/em> in uh\u2013 in immortality, emotionally and experientially. Intellectually I have some trouble with it. I\u2019ve had some things happen here that clearly proved the continuum of life<\/em> that uh, from our\u2013 uh, our experience. We feel it has. I would say the majority of us probably hold to a doctrine of reincarnation. And this has come about from some of our delving into the parapsychological, although not all. Certainly Mother doesn\u2019t come from that kind of background, but uh, some of the experiences that have come out of the uh\u2013 uh, through the manifestation of the parapsychological gifts or the extra-dimensional or whatever, the esoteric, we have been led to conclude that that is the way life continues. That then\u2013 That there\u2019s more equality. And perhaps too there\u2019s a subjective thing, the old concept of uh, one hell and one heaven, is not\u2013 It\u2019s too heavy for me. I can\u2019t see equality in that, but if a person does learn empathy through several experiences, then at least you can talk more about order in the universe. Although we make no criterion for worship here. We have atheist[s] who come, who are attracted because we take in every child that is brought to us. I don\u2019t think of one agency that\u2019s come to us, and we\u2019ve had\u2013 We had a private psychiatrist this week that asked us to take a child in, we\u2019re taking her from San Mateo, who\u2019d had good experiences with some other cases he sent to us, or from the courts. No matter what<\/em> the problem, someone here takes them. I had a case of a troubled child, a child that they had no favorable prognosis for tonight. One of the families immediately volunteered to\u2013 to\u2013 to\u2013 to give it a whirl. And so some are here just because they see a caring and sharing group. Some are here because they were attracted by our\u2013 our animal refuge shelter. We\u2019ve got all kinds of little things down there that are being mended, wings that\u2019re being mended and legs that\u2019re being mended and every little animal that was shoved aside, we take in. You\u2019ve heard of\u2013 Maybe you\u2019ve heard locally, the Kerns Animal Adoption Program. Well, that\u2019s primarily our church, it\u2019s a member of our church, and we we do all the\u2013 all the animals that get placed (chuckles) unfortunately are placed here. (laughs) We haven\u2019t had one placed outside of our church, and we feel like we\u2019re about to have animals run out of our ears. But whatever, if it\u2019s compensation for some feelings of guilt, we don\u2019t try to\u2013 we don\u2019t try to elaborate on that, uh, we\u2013 we just uh\u2013 we\u2019re interested in making the world a better place. Whatever we may be compensating for within our personalities, we feel that if we\u2019re kinder, maybe the world will be kinder. We feel there\u2019s an enlightened self-interest in that sense. We know that selfishness exist in us, but we want to make it an enlightened self-interest, that by being kinder to all living creatures maybe that\u2013 that kindness will come back. I think I<\/em> certainly have evolved, and I know some in this leadership and laity have evolved to the degree, that they\u2019re not interested so much in kindness coming back to them as adults, but we certainly want the world to be a kinder place for our children to live in, and I dig that you can relate to that, and you\u2019d probably be right there with us in that bag, that you\u2019re not so particularly interested in what you<\/em> get back, but you\u2019d like a better world for those you love to be able to grow up in. I\u2019ve yakked enough, I think. Anybody wish to ask him any questions about his<\/em> faith. He\u2019s\u2013 he\u2019s\u2013 he\u2019s\u2013 he\u2019s Greek Orthodox, is it? It\u2019s quite similar to the Catholic Church in some ways, but you have much more liberality than others in the sense marriage, and you\u2019re certainly more progressive probably as a movement, aren\u2019t you, than\u2013 than the Roman Catholic Church? Or is it\u2013 Is this generally so? I know lo\u2013 at least locally, you gentlemen are more liberal, and\u2013 but now the Roman Catholic priest that we have now<\/em> seem to be more liberal than what we were familiar with. We had an Irish priest stood here that was uh, just here till about two or three years ago, and they were something else, they were out in the woods, but these<\/em> gentlemen seem to be swinging individuals. Perhaps you can tell us a little bit about uh, your\u2013 your church and how it compares to the Catholic Church or something else that they could relate to.<\/p>\n

(microphone moves)<\/p>\n

Katsaris:<\/strong> That\u2019s difficult in two words, Jim, but I\u2013 I will tell you that there\u2019s uh, a bit more individual freedom in the Eastern or the Greek Orthodox Church. That\u2019s probably based on the fact that the Eastern Church is uh, part of the uh, Eastern world and uh, we\u2019ve never had a uh, Roman code of law, so to speak as the Western Church, so it\u2019s\u2013 it\u2019s more contemplative. There\u2019s more individual freedom. <\/strong>What we\u2019re doing here in Ukiah is largely the result of individual effort, so we do have that\u2013 that freedom to\u2013 to act individually. Uh, I would say that\u2013 that uh, uh, in that respect uh, the Eastern Church uh, compared to the Roman Catholic Church allows its\u2013 its own\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Like a priesthood. I could see why it would be.<\/p>\n

(Man and Jones speak over each other, both unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Katsaris: \u2013<\/strong>function individually, and that I think is uh, largely a historical accident. Uh, the Eastern world was never really interested in forming codes of laws and regimenting things as\u2013 as the Western world.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> That\u2019s\u2013 that\u2019s a good thought. I hadn\u2019t uh, even considered<\/em> why there would be this difference. Too busy in our own world. It\u2019s really good for us to learn. How many of you are familiar with the Greek Orthodox Church? Have you ever heard that this\u2013 This is uh, much like the Catholic Church, they just didn\u2019t accept the papacy at some point. There was disagreement as to who was to be the head of the church, wasn\u2019t it? Isn\u2019t (unintelligible word) what it amounted to? And so they\u2019ve gone their own way, because of commitment to their\u2013 their beliefs. Uh\u2013 Politically uh, are you uh, now with the\u2013 with the regime in Greece, how do\u2013 how does the church react to this? We\u2019re\u2013 we\u2019re of course uh, terrified of anything that\u2019s tyrannical from left and right, and we wondered how\u2013 how does this affect your church today?<\/p>\n

Katsaris:<\/strong> Uh, my background is Greek Orthodox, but uh, the term Greek Orthodox encompasses more than just the people of Greece.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n

Katsaris:<\/strong> Only a small percentage of the Greek Orthodox Christians uh, come from a country called\u2013 (unintelligible word under Jones interruption)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Yes. Where is your prelate? He\u2019s in Istanbul?<\/p>\n

Katsaris:<\/strong> In Istanbul, yes\u2013 So that uh, uh, even though my parents were Greek immigrants, uh, the word Greek is more comparable to the Latin word in the Western church. However, what\u2019s happening in Greece is uh, a very good example of\u2013 of what\u2019s happened historically in Greek Orthodox countries. The church has tended to be localized in a national country, so we have uh, Greece, we have uh, Russia, the Russian Orthodox Church in Russia, and when governments come in that are strong enough to uh, control the church, then the church suffers as well as the political government. What happens in a country like Greece is that uh, you have a\u2013 a military dictatorship now uh, which is uh, all-encompassing in what it controls. It controls the press, it controls\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones: <\/strong>(unintelligible) (interrupts talks over him)<\/p>\n

Katsaris:<\/strong> (unintelligible under Jones) \u2013elections. This however has been uh, uh, something that\u2019s historically taken place uh, in\u2013 in Orthodox countries.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> But uh, Greek (stumbles over words) When you think of Greece, you think of the cradle of democracy<\/em>. It\u2019s uh\u2013 It\u2019s kind of disheartening to see this happening, but I gather that probably you\u2019re right in that sense. I am glad to hear uh, of your point of view. I\u2019d\u2013 I\u2019d sensed<\/em> in\u2013 in the Bay when uh, some time ago Christophers of the Greek. Isn\u2019t the mayor\u2013 former mayor a Chr\u2013 Christopher?<\/p>\n

Katsaris:<\/strong> Uh, George Christopher, yes.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I heard him coming out in support of the Greek regime, and this gave me the heebie jeebies, and a few others uh, and I was wondering if there was a current flowing through the Greek community that was pro-Grecian politics. I\u2013 I uh, hope that didn\u2019t exist. I didn\u2019t know uh, and I made no\u2013 I\u2019ve made no public pronouncement on this subject in the church whatsoever. I didn\u2019t even tell them what I feared. This is the only time I\u2019ve ever shared this thought. I noticed a whole lot of leading Greek members of the San Francisco or the Bay community supporting the Greek regime, and uh, Christopher went so far as to say we could do well if we were more like<\/em> it, and I wondered who is that. And that\u2013 that made me apprehensive.<\/p>\n

Katsaris:<\/strong> The average person whose of Greek uh, background here in the United States remembers Greek as a country largely like France for about twenty or twenty-five years after the second World War where one government was succeeded by another one in\u2013 in matters of months. And I know from my own personal experience in Greece, you\u2013 you could wake up there in the morning and not know if the uh, trolleys were going to run or if the garbage would be collected or if there\u2019d be a newspaper strike, and so uh, now what apparently was political chaos was solved by the simple expediency of taking away freedom<\/em>. The average Greek citizen uh, uh, lives in a province and uh, only knows that the government is all powerful<\/em>. The average American citizen of Greek background, like the people you<\/em> were talking about, know now only that when you go to Greece. you\u2019re not hassled by a customs inspector who expect you to\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> There\u2019s much more order.<\/p>\n

Katsaris:<\/strong> \u2013to\u2013 to stay there for a half an hour why he inspects your papers, and if the tip is large enough, it won\u2019t stretch into two<\/em> hours so\u2013 so\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> (unintelligible aside, sounds like \u201cI can see.\u201d)<\/p>\n

Katsaris:<\/strong> Things are far more orderly, but you see uh, a dictatorship is the most effective form of government in the world<\/em>. Uh\u2013 It has nothing to do with freedom, and when they go back there, the government knows how to take care of them well, the country runs more efficiently, and so you get comments like uh, uh, America would do uh, well if it could copy some of the things that are happening in Greece, though there\u2013 there\u2019s no consideration of what happens to personal liberties. There\u2019s no such thing as a free radio or a free press in Greece today.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I\u2013 I gathered. I was going to ask you. Is it as bad<\/em> as it has been presented by such stories as Z<\/em> for instance, which we\u2013 I uh\u2013\u00a0I think we did see it \u2013 uh, we do have that background. I\u2019d forgotten we made that suggestion, and the congregation even went as a group to see Z<\/em>. Did you see Z<\/em>?<\/p>\n

Katsaris:<\/strong> Yes, I saw the picture.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Was this uh, somewhat historical or\u2013<\/p>\n

Katsaris:<\/strong> Yes\u2013 Oh yes, uh, the happenings were a little garbled as\u2013 as uh, far as the chronological order of things, but uh, that was uh, based on a true happening in Greece.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t see too much difference between some attitudes in America. That\u2019s what really disturbed me more than anything. It was not the uniqueness of the\u2013 uh, the fact that it happened in Greece. I could see the same kind of thing easily<\/em> happening here. I mean the\u2013 the mentality<\/em>, the same kind of mentality that you deal with. Maybe not as obvious in the military, but in San Diego, in some of my contacts, we have one retired military person here, some of the things they say, that military people say, was quite comparable to the kind of things that you saw coming right out of Z<\/em>. Just to take this thing over uh, dissent. As you say order\u2013 order\u2019s the most important thing, law and order without justice, and I\u2019m terrified of order without justice. (Pause) Well, it\u2019s\u2013 it\u2019s uh, good that you gave us this feedback. We have had no\u2013 I<\/em> don\u2019t at least have any contact to speak with people who are in your faith or of your national background, even remotely<\/em> so, and uh, when I saw the number of people who had uh, supported the Greek takeover, I uh\u2013 I wondered uh, would they lend themselves to that kind of thinking? Did\u2013 did they really mean<\/em> that we want all the tyranny that goes with it? And I am really afraid.<\/em> Do you think that this is the sentiment of a lot of Americans today that we (unintelligible word under Katsaris) order?<\/p>\n

Katsaris:<\/strong> (interrupts Jones) Well, I think\u2013 I think that we as Americans have to share in a lot of that, because we historically, uh, to expedite our own a\u2013 uh, aims in the world, have supported governments like that, and tended to gloss over all the political inequities. We\u2019ve done that in Spain, we\u2019ve done that all over the world uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Yes, we certainly have.<\/p>\n

Katsaris: <\/strong>In Central America and South America.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Do you go so far as to some that the CIA actually helped bring about the coup d\u2019\u00e9tat in the Greek uh, government?<\/p>\n

Katsaris:<\/strong> Well, I don\u2019t know. I uh\u2013 I attended a lecture once uh, about four years ago uh, where someone brought out the fact that historically in Greece, this is the first time the government was ever taken over by the military counterpart of the CIA. Uh\u2013 the KIP in Greece is the intelligence wing out of which the colonels function uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> That\u2019s what I was making reference to. Newsweek<\/em>, you know, sugg\u2013 The Washington Post <\/em>made the suggestion\u2013<\/p>\n

Katsaris:<\/strong> \u2013uh, to take over the government\u2013 (unintelligible sentence under Jones) But that\u2019s a\u2013 that\u2019s a big jump to say that, because it was their intelligence section that took over the government, that this was backed by the CIA. Uh, it\u2019s interesting to see what we do as a government, as America\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Yeah\u2013<\/p>\n

Katsaris:<\/strong> We ordered uh, military uh, support, arms uh, uh, stopped<\/em> to Greece right, oh, after that takeover. Two years later, however, uh, the facts came out that we\u2013 that we\u2013 that we had supported them with more military uh, uh, shipments in those two years than ever before.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> That\u2019s what\u2013 That\u2019s what leaves me with such consternation. You\u2019ll find all these denials, and then later on the front page, as it was in the Chronicle,<\/em> it was absolutely denial by every phase of our government that we were involved in the murder of the Diem, the uh, in the Bu\u2013 in the\u2013 the\u2013 the Buddhist leaders in South Vietnam, then later frank admission by our own government that we had<\/em> been involved. And then, when was it, the NBC White Paper that uh\u2013 or CBS White Paper that brought out the number of things the CIA has undertaken<\/em>, the plan to assassin\u2013 the assassination of Sukarno, but they didn\u2019t get a call, uh, didn\u2019t\u2013 it didn\u2019t go the way they wished it and uh, the murder of who, the Ira\u2013 Iranian Premier [Mohammad Mosaddegh, deposed in 1953] uh, some several years ago, and you wonder if this has been the pattern twenty years ago, if it\u2019s not probably even worse today. Then what came out today, uh, something else I saw about uh, CIA\u2013 what was it, that someone was accusing them of? I want to\u2013 I\u2013 I want to hide from (laughs) some of this information I think. It was a bit in the news today. Did anyone read the news about the CIA some\u2013<\/p>\n

Voice in Crowd:<\/strong> (unintelligible too soft)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> That\u2019s Harris. What did\u2013 What did he say, Professor [Edith] Roller?<\/p>\n

Roller:<\/strong> Uh, well\u2013 (Stumbles over word) I read two reports about this book. He\u2019s a former OSS man, and he\u2019s written a book which I think is probably, although not fictional, I think it\u2019s uh, written from the point of view of making a good story, and\u2013 and uh, uh, I\u2013 I just uh\u2013 I\u2019ve read this with a\u2013 I don\u2019t say these things aren\u2019t true, for instance, he suggested that uh\u2013 uh, somebody in the State Department suggested assassinating\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> That\u2019s<\/em> the one that<\/p>\n

Roller:<\/strong> Yeah uh, uh, Ho\u2013 Ho Chi Minh.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Ho Chi Minh.<\/p>\n

Roller:<\/strong> \u2013I guess it was, and that the CIA said it wasn\u2019t a good idea. I think he\u2019s just collected a lot of gossip that he is uh, telling because it makes a good story and\u2013 and\u2013 uh, I don\u2019t uh\u2013 uh, it uh\u2013 I imagine that he didn\u2019t work for them uh, recently<\/em> enough nor in a high enough position to have very much information. He\u2019s just picked up gossip on the fringes. That\u2019s what I suspect\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> That\u2019s interesting.<\/p>\n

Roller:<\/strong> \u2013 and I don\u2019t think they even care very much uh, if he tells it, it\u2019s uh, uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Why do you think they don\u2019t care? Uh, no one\u2019s (unintelligible word).<\/p>\n

Roller:<\/strong> Uh, I don\u2019t think he\u2019s going to tell anything that\u2019s uh, very fundamental.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I see.<\/p>\n

Roller:<\/strong> I don\u2019t\u2013 I don\u2019t think you learn anything from the book. It\u2019ll just be like another spy story. (Laughs)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> That\u2019s interesting. I\u2013 I uh, wonder uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Roller:<\/strong> I used to work in the State Department over in uh, India, and I had some contacts with\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> What do you\u2013 Yes, I know you do<\/em> have. Uh\u2013 What did you think of the uh, allegation by, I\u2019ve forgotten the name of the man that left the CIA, over in CBS Network some months ago that said that\u2013 that the CIA was involved in eighty percent of the drug<\/em> traffic. Uh, I don\u2019t remember the names of the\u2013 of the involved but, the\u2013 in uh, South East Asia they were actually transporting drugs in US planes<\/em> to support the uh, corrupt governments there, what you were mentioning, dictatorships that we feel that we have to deal<\/em> with, I guess to stop uh, a greater threat as we feel communism to be.<\/p>\n

Roller:<\/strong> I wouldn\u2019t put that uh, past them at all. Uh, \u2018course I left uh, my European service uh, about fifteen years ago, and uh\u2013 they uh\u2013 I didn\u2019t ever hear of anything of that type uh, when I\u2013 when I was in Asia, but uh, they have a very large amount of uh, equipment and uh, large numbers of men, so I think it\u2019s possible they would do anything to uh, keep a government in power that they wish to keep in power.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Yeah. (pause) Well, I hope [George] Orwell is\u2013 uh, what is it, what\u2019s his name? \u2013 is wrong, 1984<\/em>. I hope that that\u2019s all wrong. Sometimes one lea\u2013 looks at patterns and sees that we feel that the way to combat another alien idea or tyrannical idea is by adopting another one of the same type to support our own particular economic system. But one can easily become too apprehensive these days, and we\u2013 That\u2019s why we like to ask. We\u2013 we don\u2019t hesitate to disagree, she disagreeing with my point of view there, and I\u2019m sure that we have varying points of view, and some of you are more radical in your\u2013 your thinking. Don\u2019t hesitate to say<\/em> it. This is a free assembly uh\u2013 You have any other comment? \u2013 I know it\u2019s late \u2013 do you have any other com\u2013 We don\u2019t mind<\/em>, we\u2019re\u2013 we\u2019re late birds, we stay all night for one reason or another, not that bad, we usually get home by one during summer, and then during the school year, we get strict<\/em>, \u2018cause children have to get their\u2013 get up<\/em> in the morning. Does anyone uh, have any question you\u2019d like to ask them? (pause) We\u2019re not communicating<\/em>\u2013 I\u2013 I\u2013 We\u2019re not communicating fully<\/em>, you know. If you want them in a comm\u2013 uh, I know what you\u2019re going to say and I don\u2019t want to be responsible the next time we have a catharsis, you\u2019ll say no<\/em>, until you start opening up<\/em> a little more.<\/p>\n

Female:<\/strong> Well, mine\u2019s a pretty naive question, you know, going to comparing say the Catholic church, but it\u2013 you were talking about the independence that you have. Now is your school\u2013 you\u2019re Trinity school right?<\/p>\n

Katsaris:<\/strong> (Unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Female:<\/strong> Okay. Is that run in the same sense, like the Paulist Fathers run schools, or the different sisters run schools and colleges and things. Or are you independent to structure your school and to plan the academic religious or set your program yourself?<\/p>\n

Katsaris:<\/strong> Uh, Trinity School is sponsored by our church. However, we\u2013 we\u2019re completely independent. Uh, I\u2019m the only member of our faith at the school. We have a staff of some 50 people who are not associated with our church. And uh, the children\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> That\u2019s certainly different than most religious groups.<\/p>\n

Katsaris:<\/strong> Yeah. The children that come to<\/em> us uh, are children of all denominations. There\u2019s never any question made.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Well, how can we help\u2013 how can we help you in that area? We\u2019re very<\/em> much interested in helping with children. If there is anything\u2013 Of course you can\u2019t think this late hour maybe, but if you find anything we can do uh, that sounds\u2013 That\u2019s really wonderful that you have not parochialized uh, your school, and it\u2019s certainly given you a great deal of liberty<\/em>, uh, I would think to work with people of cross-section of backgrounds. That\u2019s healthy. I don\u2019t\u2013 I\u2019m not fond<\/em> of parochial institutions. We\u2019ve felt the necessity at times of having a school of our own<\/em>, because in the schoolroom, uh we have some fundamentalist teachers who\u2019ll go so far as to call uh, d\u2013 of the devil, the dea\u2013 the theory of evolution<\/em>, uh [Charles] Darwin\u2013 Darwin is cas\u2013 uh, castigated like you would Satan<\/em>, and this gets under our skin<\/em> at times, because we are mostly uh\u2013 most of us here are Darwinian in our theor\u2013 or inclined<\/em> in theory of evolution, or far more than inclined<\/em>. And uh, to get that guff all the time, it tempts<\/em> one to be a part of a uh\u2013 you know, to form your own school. And they\u2013 they have a fairly good school, I guess a experimental school uh, a free school out way on (unintelligible location), but it doesn\u2019t take care of enough people<\/em>, and we\u2019re so equalitarian that we couldn\u2019t put a few<\/em> of our children in a school without putting all<\/em>. Uh, it\u2013 kind\u2013 we\u2013 We\u2019re kind of interested in that kind of s\u2013 that type of school, but uh, we would be most hesitant to in\u2013 to reinforce our own prejudices of thinking, religious thinking, and for that, we feel that exposure in the public school system is good. But we run into a whole lot of racism. Your\u2013 your school is just for your own members, I suppose. And I mean\u2013 I mean they\u2019re not members of your church but those who are enrolled in your school, who live in residence as the school, do you\u2013 do you send them to the public school or do you teach them there?<\/p>\n

Katsaris:<\/strong> No, we have our own school on campus\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Is it just confined to the residents of your uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Katsaris:<\/strong> \u2013 of Trinity school, yes.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> We should work. (laughs) We should in\u2013 and be able to have\u2013 have the facilities to expand it, because I imagine you have controlled the racial factor. As you\u2019re quite familiar\u2013 I\u2019m a schoolteacher myself on the secondary level, and we have several. How many school teachers here? Several of them are gone tonight, I don\u2019t have the meeting with. There is one who\u2019s head of a department, another one in this college and here\u2019s a college teacher in English uh, department head uh\u2013 There\u2019s uh, what are you, in lingual or linguist? Bilingual cor\u2013 teaching? She\u2019s an elementary. Well, the bus has rolled in. (sighs) Uh\u2013 The uh, racism is more in evidence now<\/em> than it was a decade ago, and even reinforced by people who ought to know<\/em> better. We\u2019ve run into some very bad<\/em> things being said by teachers<\/em>, racial connotations<\/em>. Not that\u2013 we don\u2019t mind a joke, we\u2013 we can take a joke, we\u2019re not that uptight. We\u2019ll even amongst ourselves talk about niggers too, as long as nobody outside\u2013 outside<\/em> calls us niggers. We all say in here, we\u2019re all niggers, or we wouldn\u2019t be here, white, black, and brown, we\u2019re all niggers.<\/p>\n

Congregation:<\/strong> Stirs<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> But because we mean that, that anyone\u2013 anyone that is treated niggardly, anyone that is downrated and not given their full equality, we must\u2013 might as well face<\/em> it, in that sense, we\u2019re getting\u2013 we\u2019re\u2013 we\u2019re being treated<\/em> as niggers, and as long as anyone is being as such, we joke about this amongst ourselves. But we certainly<\/em> don\u2019t like that thing thrown at us. But a little racial joke every now and then. But when people actually get up and try to support<\/em> uh, differences of race based on some ridiculous Bible passage or some curse<\/em>. We\u2019ve had this happen right in the school system<\/em>, where they bring up the curse of Ham uh\u2013 It makes us uptight, bu\u2013 but we\u2019ve uh, found no solution just but to just mill along (Curse of Ham in Genesis 9:20-27),<\/span> and there are pleasant exceptions, pleasant exceptions. But have you noticed this happening, that there is more racial feelings even the\u2013 on\u2013 on the part supposedly enlightened people? Uh, I don\u2019t think uh, from our<\/em> angle, and I hope I\u2019m wrong, we\u2013 we don\u2019t see an improvement overall in the racial relations, that the emergence of nationalistic feeling and a sense of black pride that\u2019s perhaps caused further alienation. What do you feel about this thing? Do you think it is overall net or are we not being a\u2013 able to see the trees for the forest or something of that sort?<\/p>\n

Katsaris:<\/strong> Well, I think we\u2019re far more aware of it today, and uh, one of the by-products of this awareness is that in many<\/em> of us here in America, our racism has gone undercover, quite<\/em> unconsciously too.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Yes, that\u2019s true.<\/p>\n

Katsaris:<\/strong> It\u2019s uh\u2013 It\u2019s appropriate today not to be racist, but if you look closely, there\u2019s a lot of it right under the surface. We received a questionnaire from the uh, uh, Civil uh, Rights Commission uh, down in the Bay Area, asking us, as a uh, state-licensed agency, to supply them with information. How many children were black? How many ca\u2013 uh, were of other minority groups with Spanish surnames, uh, uh, Filipinos, other Asians and Orientals. And uh, for the first time we had to sit down and uh, start counting, how many children do we have that\u2019re black? How many do come from Oriental backgrounds?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Beautiful.<\/p>\n

Katsaris:<\/strong> They\u2019re\u2013 they\u2019re\u2013 they\u2019re all there with us, and it caused us uh, to pause and to\u2013 to\u2013 to say to ourselves, how is it that we came to the point in our school of being able to see these children as children<\/em> and not white\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> And that\u2019s beautiful.<\/p>\n

Katsaris:<\/strong> \u2013 or black or\u2013 or Oriental.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> So should it be.<\/p>\n

Katsaris:<\/strong> Okay, so\u2013 so I\u2013 I think that that<\/em> is a byproduct of getting to know people individually. If we would just see these children for an hour a day and see them as problem children that come to us for therapy, I think we would tend to see them as a black child or a white child, but when you live with them 24 hours a day uh, year end and year out, you begin to see them as individuals, and it doesn\u2019t take long for color and background to be something that\u2019s uh, completely insignificant.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Hm-mm. It\u2019s true. Well, we\u2013 you give us heart. We\u2019re glad you\u2019re in the community, to say the least. When I said communicating, I don\u2019t mean that we\u2019re any uh, division between us, but our people just not talking<\/em> as much as they usually talk. Believe me, they can talk. Uh, but I think that they probably feel that they would uh, overtax you at this hour uh, because we were very really thrilled about your coming, and we hope that we\u2019ll be able to do this more often.<\/p>\n

Congregation:<\/strong> Applause<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> While on this, uh, the last instance of finances. Maybe you might take them, show the senior citizens home, and I\u2019ll be there in about five minutes. We\u2019ve got to make this last financial report, no use for them to go through that, and we\u2013 I\u2019ll join you across the way in just a minute. Maybe if you could<\/em>\u2013 you could<\/em>\u2013 another ten minutes. I\u2019d like to talk a little bit more to you if I could. Uh, everybody uh\u2013 (Pause) I\u2013 I don\u2019t know, if you would prefer to meet the people, we can forfeit this little business, but we\u2013 there\u2019ll still be time, they\u2019ll be milling around. They\u2019re gonna\u2013 we\u2019ve got the\u2013 one of our senior citizens has a project, give them on me, on\u2013 I\u2019ll pay\u2013 pick the tab. She makes awfully good steak, and one of them\u2019s out there is 88 and she\u2019s got fried chicken, and I\u2019ve got 88 and 90 and these\u2013 these gals never quit. (laughs)<\/p>\n

Female:<\/strong> Thank you (unintelligible).<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> We\u2013 I think uh, we uh\u2013 and then you\u2019ll have time to talk with the folks too as they socialize, and don\u2019t forget, folks, to support that uh, project out there for our children\u2019s work, and it\u2019s a good way you can feel that you\u2019re supporting and get something out of it too<\/em>, \u2018cause they sure can cook, can\u2019t they. It\u2019s good food.<\/p>\n

Congregation:<\/strong> Applause.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I uh\u2013 (Pause) Now I want\u2013 I wonder if you would uh, (aside, too soft) \u2013get him over to the house after they eat, you see that\u2013 see that I don\u2019t\u2013 I\u2019m not overheard. (Back to mike) I want to get some more money here.<\/p>\n

Congregation:<\/strong> Laughter and scattered applause.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I want to get some more money and we got to do it, (Pause) so now let\u2019s\u2013 let\u2019s\u2013 let\u2019s get it quick. Get any pledges\u2013 the offering report was ridiculous, so uh, if you can<\/em>, uh, I think that uh\u2013 Laura\u2013 Laura, Chaikin \u2013 you might talk a little bit to them on healing, even though you\u2019re humanistic, go out and talk to them a little bit about\u2013<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> But I think he\u2013 think of the healing might be good to s\u2013 to give them some dramatic thing, \u2018cause I\u2013 I humble\u2013 I was humble about it. Thank you. Uh, (Pause) did you see anything about how you\u2013 did you see anything in my approach that you\u2013 how you would approach a person? I\u2019m quite confident that I can move heaven and earth<\/em>, but you don\u2019t tell<\/em> people that. You prove<\/em> it to them, and you take \u2018em little by little, and then prove<\/em> it to them. Then you can do a lot more than if you make great big promises. If you don\u2019t promise and produce<\/em>, that\u2019s better than to promise and not produce. But uh, I can see that they\u2019ve got\u2013 I know where they put us, they uh\u2013 they put us in a\u2013 in a bag of uh, cultism, and that kind of got tore up here. Don\u2019t be so pru\u2013 don\u2019t be taken in. Some of you didn\u2019t stay awake for this. I know you\u2019re very tired, but you should\u2019ve look\u2013 listened to this. You don\u2019t want to be uh, misled. Uh, it was the comfortable middle road of liberalism. [In] Other words, I can understand why people are supportive of the Greek regime. There wasn\u2019t that much criticism of dictatorial fascism. It\u2019s the comfortable middle road, and frankly, there\u2019s a real schizophrenia. People accuse us<\/em> of being schizophrenic, but they\u2019re really\u2013 There\u2019s a real schizophrenia out in the world. Now he probably said more about that government here against it than has ever been said by his lips before. Uh, because in\u2013 in the\u2013 in the church, he couldn\u2019t survive. I was trying to be as truthful with him as I could. The Greek Orthodox Church is so very much involved with the support of the terrible fascist and racist regime, that terribly murderous<\/em> regime. I mean they\u2019ve murdered every one of their enemies there, and that\u2013 and tortured them, and pulled out their fingernails, and poked out eyes, and cut female breasts off, and uh, the church\u2013 the Greek church has not said one word against it. The Greek church\u2013 American Greek church has not said a word<\/em> against all that murderous business. So I want you to be exceedingly wise. Someone can be sweet and smile and gentle and kind, and he said he thought so much of us. Why, he wasn\u2019t telling us the truth, and I said the truth when I said we\u2019re not communicating, and then I realized I said too much truth. (tape distorts) We\u2013 We\u2019re playing games. So I said, we\u2019re playing\u2013 I might as well have said we\u2019re playing games, but I knew that wouldn\u2019t help any. He said I\u2019ve heard so much good<\/em> about us. He lie, he lie, he lie.<\/p>\n

Congregation:<\/strong> Laughter<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> And do it so sweet<\/em>, folk can just lie to you so sweet. Now (unintelligible word)\u2013 Would you believe it, I used to wouldn\u2019t tell a lie for no one. Even today, one of the sisters answered the telephone, said I wasn\u2019t there, she trying to help me. I don\u2019t like that. I\u2019d rather avoid a lie wherever I can, except when somebody is trying to do you harm. Then I\u2019ve learned to not tell people things they want to hear to use\u2013 use against you. I said we didn\u2019t like dictatorships of the right or the left. We were afraid of tyranny from the right or the left. I tried to goad him a little bit into understanding, Professor Roller gave some kindly disagreements, but yet supportive where I needed support. It was good, she showed\u2013 I was hoping someone, after she disagreed, would come in and agree<\/em> with me.<\/p>\n

Roller: <\/strong>I was afraid I (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> No\u2013 no\u2013 no\u2013 no, I think it was good. I think it was good uh, that not everybody yes me. I think it was very good. But someone else shoulda come in there and backed me up, because I didn\u2019t want you to be selling what she knows. You see, I\u2019ve got to talk to some of our own people here\u2013 Shhh! Now, wake up! She was in the CIA and she knows they do<\/em> murder and they do<\/em> kill. And I was\u2013 My thought was, don\u2019t you say anything, \u2018cause I don\u2019t want them to\u2013 \u2018cause if they could report her and cause difficulty, \u2018cause she\u2019s been in<\/em> it. But believe me \u2013 and I know we were staging<\/em>, we were staging<\/em> things \u2013 \u2018cause we don\u2019t put, as someone said earlier, I think Harold was mentioning, us throwing pearls before swine. Well, we\u2019re gonna\u2013 We sure<\/em> not going to throw pearls out there. We\u2019ve thrown them too many times, and they\u2019ve throwed brickbats back<\/em> at us. Instead of getting even our own pearls<\/em> back, we got something else<\/em>, and so uh, it would\u2013 I wish you woulda stayed awake to watch me. Some of you who are younger particularly, you should\u2019na gone to sleep on me. And I haven\u2019t been to sleep uh, either for a couple or three days, and I\u2013 I wish you had stayed awake, because you could\u2019ve learned uh, something in the art of wooing and winning people, or leaving them confused<\/em>. Never appear too wise, throw \u2018em off, you know. Yet and I\u2013 you\u2019ve got to tell them an element of truth, \u2018cause they go out and find out you believe in some of these things. They do find out that I believe I\u2019m God, or you believe I\u2019m God, I perfectly made a way for it, \u2018cause I said I don\u2019t believe there\u2019s anything up there<\/em>. The only thing that there is, is here in me<\/em>, but uh, I didn\u2019t say that<\/em>. I just said they\u2013 Said I don\u2019t uh\u2013 I don\u2019t project too much on that. We do good for good\u2019s sake and so forth. And I could feel that he was getting home to him there, I\u2019d opened up some thoughts that he\u2019d not had when I said we just, out of enlightened self-interest not looking too good. You see, the psychologist always trying to say that there\u2019s a motive for everything, and people are always defending, saying there isn\u2019t any bad motive, and so we let it know right off we might be doing it for all the selfish reasons in the world<\/em>, but it was an enlightened self-interest, so we took\u2013 or we crumbled his case, if he\u2019s gonna call us nuts. He\u2013 He certainly have trouble calling us nuts after that. And uh, and you can never really know, my loves, what they will<\/em> say just by what went here tonight, but you<\/em>, Liz [Forman], know that a lot rides on you doing awfully<\/em> good job there. Do an awfully good job. We might win that little girl [Maria Katsaris]. The little girl is sincere, but you\u2019ll have to be careful what you say, you can\u2019t say\u2013 mention healings. He always plays himself down, but you can mention one or two here\u2013 just phenomenal things. He says he always plays himself down, \u2018cause this might throw off a little too much charisma. I might\u2019ve thrown away too much charisma here for her to be won, because all people are won through that image<\/em>. Everyone likes their God or their leader to be put up high, and I put myself down pretty low, so she might\u2019ve lost some of that necessary initiation charisma. [It would] Be good maybe if you\u2019d talk with her in the presence of some of our other young people sometime. Maybe we can invite her for\u2013 to go out for uh, you know, whatever, some little tea. I\u2013 I\u2013 I\u2019m accustomed to tea, referencing my travels, having tea and biscuits. Another thing I did. I\u2013 I wear these glasses for (unintelligible word) image, and I thought aha<\/em>, you think I\u2019m gonna\u2013 I\u2019m afraid that I\u2019m hiding behind these glasses, I took my glasses and (unintelligible word).<\/p>\n

Congregation:<\/strong> Scattered laughter.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> \u2018Cause that would be\u2013 One of the psychologist would be making some kind of uh, (mimics psychologist voice) he wear those glasses for some reason, he can\u2019t look at people, so I made him quite sure that I can look at him straight in the eyes. So you want to\u2013 you want to always remember those things. I have a reason<\/em> to wear these glasses, but it\u2019s sure<\/em> not because I\u2019m afraid of looking at any of you. You ought to know that. You can see that. You can\u2013 You can weigh your Father and watch<\/em> him. Ain\u2019t nobody<\/em> I\u2019m afraid to look at. Never be afraid of that. But I have a good reason to wear these glasses because my eyes have a certain potency, and so sometimes it\u2019s good for me to take them off too. I\u2019ll let you live with that<\/em> parable [could mean \u201cparadox\u201d]. Think about it. Now, I know it\u2019s quiet, but we\u2019ve got to come up with some money, folk. Uh, anybody got any big 100 dollar pledges to make on that building, we\u2019ve got to have it in the next few days, we\u2019ve got to put some money down where our mouth<\/em> is. Anybody got any money to help us right now, quickly? Any assistance. I hate to do what I did Sunday, it\u2013 it\u2013 it\u2019s the only workable thing. (pause)<\/p>\n

Woman in Crowd:<\/strong> (Unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Oh, good.<\/p>\n

Woman in Crowd:<\/strong> I\u2019ll try to get uh\u2013 I\u2019d like to give fifty percent to the church\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> On.<\/p>\n

Woman in Crowd:<\/strong> And forty percent to the college.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> That\u2019s fine. Fine.<\/p>\n

Woman in Crowd:<\/strong> (Too soft) Uh, what the uh, Temple will (unintelligible word) a hundred dollars and eights cents, and the college fund will get sixty-seven dollars and twenty cents\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Wow, that\u2019s lovely. Thank you.<\/p>\n

Woman in Crowd:<\/strong> (Unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Did you mark it? You just mark it uh\u2013 Well, I don\u2019t know you\u2019re putting it directly in the college fund. Dale P\u2013 [Parks] is it, uh\u2013 no\u2013 no\u2013 not D\u2013 uh, Wayne [Pietila], have you got your account set up?<\/p>\n

Voice in Crowd: <\/strong>(unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Where\u2019s Wayne? Is Wayne here? You got your account set up now? Okay, you make it\u2013 She\u2019ll make it out to you\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman in Crowd: <\/strong>(unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Fine, that\u2019s\u2013 that\u2019s good.<\/p>\n

Woman in Crowd: <\/strong>(unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Oh\u2013 That\u2019s\u2013 that\u2013 that\u2019s good. Now you\u2013 We\u2019ve got the money out of you\u2013 Shhh! We\u2019ve got the money out of you, so now you get out there in sh\u2013 in fellowship. We\u2019ve got the\u2013 is that all the money you\u2019re going to give me? That\u2019s all the money I\u2019m getting out of you? You? Yeah, go on out and see those folk. (Pause) Come on, loves, uh, I want to get loose from here, and we\u2019re 500 short, so what we\u2019re gonna do with it? We\u2019re now<\/em> 500 short. She just made a hundred dollars that was\u2013 we were 600 short. What we gone do with it? Hmm? We\u2019re going to work our way down, and when you get your\u2013 your way down, we\u2019ll let you out. Come on (Tape edit) (unintelligible intro) If you heard your name, you must have it, you must have one of these tonight. Uh, they\u2013 they\u2013 I called the names, it\u2019s up to the people to\u2013 to put your hand up now, if I call your name, you get one of those cloths. (claps hand) 12. 10. Thank you, we\u2013 I woke up Mother and got two dollars. (laughs) Ten dollars. Come. Thank you. All right, come on, come on. That\u2019s penance for going to sleep. Oh, that\u2019s sweet of you. Come on, let\u2019s see, let\u2019s see now. Eight? Thank you. (Pause) All right, everybody, get the change, I mean dig down and get the change. We can make<\/em> it with the change. Dig down there. What did you say? Fine, dig down there, it\u2013 it\u2013the only change is going to come is seven or eight dollars, or 10, (unintelligible word) like that. Dig down. Whoop! Don\u2019t\u2013 don\u2019t pass that plate too fast. Wait\u2013 wait now, wait. Start up here.<\/p>\n

Voice in Crowd:<\/strong> Laughs<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> You startin\u2019 in the middle. You know, you guys<\/em>\u2013 you guys got to get a system with this thing. Pass it down one row? Is that the only row in that place? I mean, I want this to go up and down every row<\/em>. Come on, folk. What you doing? Let\u2019s get some organization [with] this offering business. Everybody get change in your hand. (pause) Huh? Oh, well (sighs) Hazel Grigsby. (pause) All right. Fine, put it down. (long pause) Hmm. (pause) Hmm. (long pause) Anybody named Polly that\u2019s\u2013 Polly that\u2019s a got a plastic uh, purse\u2013 type plastic purse, red\u2013 red plastic purse? Hmm? (pause) Polly? Uh, back\u2013 back there. Put that on her. May give\u2013 give her vibrations, (Pause) give her vibrations, that come that she have to take care of things\u2013 at different\u2013 different places, different reasons. (pause) Who\u2019s driving the car you in? Gwen\u2013<\/p>\n

Voice in Crowd:<\/strong> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Who\u2019s driving the car you\u2019re in?<\/p>\n

Female:<\/strong> (unintelligible name)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Middletown?<\/p>\n

Female:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Okay, gotta have this. Keep this on.<\/p>\n

Female:<\/strong> This?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Sister Yee. Watch traveling on old Hoplin Road. If you\u2019re ever on Old Hoplin Road. Went out Lakeport way, if you\u2019re ever in that vicinity, be careful.<\/p>\n

Female:<\/strong> Thank you, thank you.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> It\u2019s most important.<\/p>\n

Female:<\/strong> Thank you.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> It\u2019s something I see ahead\u2013<\/p>\n

Female:<\/strong> Thank you.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> And we watch your driving very carefully, and the two minute meditation. Tell her about this\u2013<\/p>\n

Female:<\/strong> Thank you.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Everyone get their change? I\u2019m still on uh\u2013 on command. I\u2019m on command here. Did it drop? Did it hit the floor? Well, I\u2019m not blaming anybody but there\u2019s\u2013 there\u2013 I just don\u2019t want\u2013 if it hits the floor, I don\u2019t want it to go back, even though I touch it.<\/p>\n

(Long pause, with organ playing)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> I have known for some time that the Thomas\u2019 are not in the church. I\u2019ve kn\u2013 known this, it\u2019s been brought to my attention. You react to them like you would everyone<\/em> that\u2019s outside. (pause) Draw in\u2013 Draw in close, not for you maybe, for somebody, just draw in close. We need money, but you risk<\/em> things with money. Draw in real close. (Pause) Remember tomorrow night. We may have some films, we\u2019re not just sure on this, but (unintelligible word) our healing service\u2013 our healing service tomorrow night\u2013 our healing service tomorrow night, we\u2019ll get into that, emphasis more\u2013 (Pause) Uh, I need to talk to uh, (Pause) Jane Mutschsmann and\u2013 No, I don\u2019t need to\u2013 (Pause) Please be looking for a car for our people to get around, for Simon Peter to get around. I mean we will keep a close look out on that. Anyone that has\u2013 knows of a car, all secretaries alert this. Sent to San\u2013 to Los Angeles too, that all secretaries, every place, to look for an extra car. Yes?<\/p>\n

Voice in Crowd:<\/strong> (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Well, if she wants to donate a car, that\u2019s fine. That\u2019s what we want is a car. Yes, that would be\u2013 that would be fine. That\u2019s beautiful. Yes? (Pause) I\u2013 I\u2013 you\u2013 whatever you have to say\u2013 bring that\u2013 uh, Jim Cobb\u2019ll go back and find out what she had to say. I don\u2019t want to\u2013 I don\u2019t want to hold another minute\u2013 I don\u2019t want to hold another minute. (Pause) Okay\u2013 Okay\u2013 Okay. You\u2019re free. Get your\u2013<\/p>\n

(Music organ plays)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong> Get your\u2013 Peace! Get whatever you\u2019re going to get to eat\u2013<\/p>\n

End of tape<\/strong><\/p>\n

Tape originally posted March 2017<\/strong><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

(Editor’s note: This tape was transcribed by Georgiana Mamlakah. The editors gratefully acknowledge her invaluable assistance.) To return to the Tape Index,\u00a0click here.\u00a0 To return to the Annotated Sermons page,\u00a0click here. To read the Tape Summary,\u00a0click here. To read Tape Transcript,\u00a0click here. Listen to MP3. Steven Katsaris: \u2013 uh, Noah, two Sundays ago when you […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"parent":29177,"menu_order":47,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-68865","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/68865","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=68865"}],"version-history":[{"count":10,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/68865\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":123447,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/68865\/revisions\/123447"}],"up":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/29177"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=68865"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}