{"id":85476,"date":"2019-01-03T17:22:57","date_gmt":"2019-01-04T01:22:57","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=85476"},"modified":"2019-01-06T15:35:40","modified_gmt":"2019-01-06T23:35:40","slug":"q885-transcript","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=85476","title":{"rendered":"Q885 Transcript"},"content":{"rendered":"

If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

To read the Tape Summary, click here<\/a>. Listen to MP3<\/a>.
\nTo return to the Tape Index, click here<\/a>.<\/p>\n

[Editor\u2019s note<\/strong>: This tape has innumerable pauses and edits, as the speaker pauses every few seconds. In most cases, the transitional words are clear. Only when the words or meaning is lost during the edit is there a notation of it.]<\/em><\/p>\n

Male:\u00a0<\/strong>Dear Jim. It\u2019s Friday, December 3, and late this afternoon, I found out the bar results. I flunked. I flunked for the third goddamn time. So, I have decided to resign, at least temporarily, from the church in order to\u2013 [tape tone changes] pending my taking the exam for the fourth and last time. [If I] pass the exam this time, I\u2019d like to the church, because at that\u00a0<\/em>point I feel like I\u2019ll something to offer the church. I\u2019ve only been a student, being minimal help as a kind of\u2013 as a\u2013 as a law clerk. I don\u2019t have any respect for the profession of law, for lawyers in general, uh\u2013 I\u2019m gonna\u2013 I gotta pass this goddamn exam. It\u2019s my fault that I flunked the exam in the past, and I don\u2019t want you or anybody in the church to feel like uh\u2013 that it had anything to do with my uh, failing exam or\u2013 or my decision to uh\u2013 to resign, but I mean, I only have the uh, warmest, most affectionate feelings for you. You\u2019ve more like a dad to me, more like a real parent than anybody I\u2019ve ever had, and the people in the church have always been great to me, I can\u2019t complain about anything anybody\u2019s done. In fact, if anybody has complaints, I\u2019m sure the complaints are against me. But I feel like I\u2019ve let everyone down, and I just can\u2019t face the goddamn humiliation and embarrassment of the whole fucking thing.<\/p>\n

I know that the rule, when you leave the church, is to move away 500 miles. Well, I\u2019ll keep that rule, but first, I\u2019m gonna take the bar exam. When I take the bar exam, and the funds for the job program that I\u2019m working at will have run out, and I\u2019ll be able to quit here, and then I\u2019ll leave, and you won\u2019t hear from me again until the bar results are out. (tape edit)<\/p>\n

\u2013Ask, I\u2019d like to come back to the church, \u2018cause the only way I ever want to practice law is of course through Peoples Temple. It\u2019s just about the only church and the only organization in this country that uh, really gives a damn about any kind of social change. Anyone who\u2019s serious about any kind of social change at all is either going to be an enthusiastic supporter of the church or, if he\u2019s really a\u2013 in\u2013 in\u2013 if he\u2019s really\u2013 is uh, concerned about social change, then he\u2019s really going to be a member of the church. I know that.<\/p>\n

\u2013 [If] I flunk the bar exam this last time, then what I intend to do is to move out of this area, to save some money, to get over to London, get hold of that Bill Anderson guy, and get somehow involved in the South African Freedom Movement. I figure I\u2019ll be able to uh\u2013 I figure it\u2019s an English-speaking country and uh, with a white skin, I ought to be able to do a great deal more for uh, black freedom and liberation than I am over here, for goddamn sure. \u2018Cause even though I\u2019m not uh, in the church now \u2013 at least temporarily not in the church \u2013 I\u2019m still a Marxist, albeit a bad one, and I am uh, terrible sorry that I have been such a bad\u00a0<\/em>example from a rather dissolute character. My beliefs. (tape edit) Some specific examples. This summer, Paul was breaking up with Sue, I was fooling around with Maureen. I never had intercourse with Maureen, but then, why it is, because I can\u2019t fuck. Maureen, who I believe has a great deal of uh\u2013 good deal of uh, character, uh, she\u2019s\u00a0<\/em>the one that broke off the relationship. Also I never had any emotion or\u2013 or any\u2013 or\u2013 tried to get back together with her, just let it die off, and then no matter what my own feelings were, I didn\u2019t\u2013 I didn\u2019t put any pressure on her or anybody else.<\/p>\n

Another example is that I drink. I even smoke dope. When I met her, I went out with prostitutes.<\/p>\n

Father, if I could pass the bar exam this time, I would at least make up for uh, some of the goddamn things I\u2019ve done, uh, if only because I have something now that I could offer the church by way of uh, some sort of professional capacity. (tape edit) \u2013indicated being (unintelligible word) outside the church has absolutely no\u2013 I mean just uh\u2013 I have absolutely no personal ambition to be any kind of an attorney or anything else.<\/p>\n

So as you see, Jim, I\u2019m uh, not any kind of candidate for any kind of leadership in the church, not any kind of candidate for any kind of followership. I would like to come back, once I pass the bar exam. (tape edit) [I] want to have duties and responsibilities with respect to the church. In fact, I\u2019ve always considered that the only genuinely good thing about me was the fact that I was in the church, Peoples Temple. I uh\u2013 I always have believed and I do believe and\u2013 and I will\u00a0<\/em>believe that the church the only completely\u00a0<\/em>good institution in this screwed-up United States. (tape edit) \u2013for the Temple\u2019s goals and in terms of its means. I have no dispute, no disagreement at all with any policy, with any decisions that have ever been made. (tape edit) \u2013decision here, and I know it\u2019s a wrong decision, but I\u2019m convinced that I have to do\u00a0<\/em>this thing, I have to pass this goddamn exam or flunk it on my own and by myself. My decision is not the result of anybody\u2019s ever having done anything to me, because frankly, in the church, the only things that\u2019ve ever been done to me have been good\u00a0<\/em>things. The church\u2013 well, not just the church, but you were able\u2013 you know, when I was a kid, you were the only goddamn adult that listened to me and made me show that I have any worth at all. As for uh, a better uh\u2013 a better friend, a better leader, a better father, a better everything than\u2013 than you were to me.<\/p>\n

As far as the people in\u2013 in the church, I have only the greatest respect, and wish that I\u2013 I weren\u2019t such a fuck-up, or done more for it, the church and the people and you. I know that uh, going to South Africa, which is my sincere intention of doing, should I not pass the bar exam, I know that\u2019s the second and a lot lesser alternative than what\u2013 than working with here with the Peoples Temple, and\u2013 and uh, you. And I\u2019m gonna stay active in the movement somehow<\/em>. I don\u2019t know of a better way to do it. As far as Sue<\/em>, part of the things I\u2019ve done, I\u2019m still emotionally attached to Sue, and I have\u00a0<\/em>been, and to you, and I said I wasn\u2019t<\/em>. Of course, I was about (unintelligible word) when I told you that\u2013 you know, I stood outside a window and watched her and whoever the hell it was doing whatever they were doing.<\/p>\n

I don\u2019t want to have anything to do with anybody who\u2019s\u2013 uh, who\u2019s either in the church or outside the church during this period. (tape edit) I swear to you, that I won\u2019t even talk to anybody who\u2019s left the church, and unless you instruct uh, various people in the church to talk to me, I won\u2019t talk to anybody in\u00a0<\/em>the church either. (tape edit) \u2013this, and I hope you don\u2019t, I hope you test\u2013 test me, and I\u2019m sure you will, you can f\u2013 you can follow me around. You know where I work and I drive a\u2013 I\u2013 I have a gray 1976 Toyota Corolla (tape edit) \u2013tomorrow, whose plate number I don\u2019t know yet. (tape edit) \u2013keeping up my intention not to see anybody in the church or who\u2019s left it, I intend to file the divorce papers on Sue this next week. (tape edit) \u2013no interest in going back with her because I don\u2019t want her to have anything to do with anybody right now.<\/p>\n

Strange incident with Sue and that is that for the past three or four months, when I haven\u2019t even spoken with each other, but yet uh, just last week, she called me two or three times, and uh, it seemed\u2013 At first it seemed like she was calling on a very friendly basis, just wanted to know, just wanted to say hello and shit like that, and tell me what was happening, and that she got her new job raise and all that. After about the second or third call, she got down to the real meat of why she was calling, and it turns out that there is a legal problems that she is involved in\u2013 involved in\u2013 (tape edit) \u2013this in confidence that may have repercussions on the church. I have no interest in seeing the church hurt at all, and the only interest I have as far as that is to see the church benefit as best I can, and the only way I can benefit it now is to tell you what that legal problem with Sue (unintelligible word) was. And the legal problem was this. It seems that uh, she took out a uh\u2013 a J. Magnin uh, credit card, mailed it to her old address at 620 Second Avenue. Well, apparently somebody\u00a0<\/em>at 620 Second Avenue \u2013 and that, by the way, is the address of Ann Peterson \u2013 uh, somebody, that is, uh\u2013 We think it\u2019s uh, one of her kids, or Sue thinks it\u2019s one of the\u2013 the kids she has, and those kids are all youn\u2013 grown-up in their mid-twenties, I think, all of course, not in the church. Uh, somebody in the house, and, like I say, Sue thinks it was one of these kids, took the credit card uh, 299\u2013 two\u2013 290 dollars\u2019 worth of uh, goods at J. Magnin\u2019s, uh, by forging Sue\u2019s signature and using the card. Well, Sue uh, found out about it when she got the bill<\/em>. And so she went and told the uh, people at J. Magnin\u2019s that she hadn\u2019t s\u2013 hadn\u2019t even used\u00a0<\/em>the card at all, and when the uh, investigator uh, got hold of Sue and\u2013 and\u2013 and uh, talked to her about it, about the card, and then uh, found\u2013 you know, found this\u2013\u00a0(tape edit) found out that it was 620 Second Avenue and that Sue didn\u2019t li\u2013 uh, live there anymore, apparently he began checking into who lived\u00a0<\/em>there, and uh, it looks as though unless uh, the two hundred dol\u2013 ninety dollars is paid, uh, somebody\u00a0<\/em>who lives there, whoever the investigator thinks it is, is going to get prosecuted for felony uh, uh, forgery and probably uh, grand theft<\/em>. If they get prosecuted, I think it\u2019s pretty clear that they\u2019re gonna be upset uh\u2013 at Sue and probably also at the uh, (Pause) at the church. (tape edit) \u2013like anyway. You know, it\u2019s not because I want to get back at Sue, because I don\u2019t, but because even though I\u2019m emotionally attached to Sue, I still (tape edit) \u2013keeping her confidence like this would be (tape edit) \u2013to the church.<\/p>\n

Even though I\u2019ve left, and I know I\u2019m considered to be a traitor, I don\u2019t\u2013 have done and don\u2019t want to do anything at all that would ever, ever in any way hurt you or the church. The money that I have, and I\u2019m using, is my own money, the money that I\u2019ve saved from my checks here. The files and all the documentary information I have about the church or belongs to the church, you will find at\u2013 on my desk in my room in the parsonage, and the car you\u2019ll find in front of uh, Linda Amos\u2019 old house, which is uh, 480 North Oak. And the keys\u2019ll be in the glove compartment.<\/p>\n

I have an old security box filled with letters to anybody because uh, (tape edit) \u2013did anything to\u2013 to\u2013 in any way at all to ever do anything to hurt the church, I\u2019d really want to be uh, offed right there. (tape edit) \u2013wouldn\u2019t uh, anybody knowing any of the uh, wherewithal if that was done. I don\u2019t give a damn what\u00a0<\/em>happens to me. I not saying that because I feel sorry for myself because it\u2013 but I\u2019m saying it because it\u2019s the truth, because I\u2019m very disgusted with both myself and uh, my life in general.<\/p>\n

Uh, nobody knows about this but you. [I haven\u2019t told] anybody I work with. No matter what happens, I will never tell them that I\u2019ve left the church, because I really\u2013 really don\u2019t want to leave\u00a0<\/em>the church. Till I pass this exam\u2013 (tape edit) \u2013come back. (tape edit) I\u2019m more than willing to talk with uh, anybody that you might send out to talk to me, but don\u2019t waste your time this weekend because I won\u2019t be here. I\u2019m not coming into work on Monday, on Tuesday\u2013 (tape edit) anybody that you want me to, at anyplace at anytime. (tape edit) And then they\u2019re more than willing to uh, search my apartment, and I live in town, in Ukiah now, and when I get back, when I get a phone, uh, which will be unlisted, I\u2019ll give you the number. Again, you and the people of\u2013 in the church couldn\u2019t have done anything any better, (tape edit) did\u2013 (tape edit) (unintelligible word), and I\u2019m the one who\u2019s wrong, and I\u2019m the one who is doing the wrong to the people there. (tape edit) \u2013feels as though I\u2019m doing a greater wrong when I stay, when I can\u2019t do the job that I\u2019ve been trained to do. I think it goes without saying of course, I have never and uh\u2013 and never will uh, divulge any\u2013 any information that I\u2013 I have or any opinions I may have, uh, which have been shared with me about anything that has happened in the church. Should you ever even think\u00a0<\/em>that I\u2019m doing so, uh, I would ask that you use this tape on which I\u2019ve made some fairly incriminating statements against me very harshly. Again, I have nothing in common with anybody who\u2019s left, or anybody who\u2019s on the outside. (tape edit) Though all the books that are left in my room that are mine, I now give to uh, you to dispose as you wish. I think there\u2019re some pretty good books in there, and I know uh, maybe Stephan [Jones] would like them, \u2018cause I know he has a real appreciation for books. (tape edit) \u2013there else anything I\u2013 I can say now. I would like to keep my uh, membership cards (tape edit) Temple, that\u2019s my one uh\u2013 one last connection with about the only thing that I really value in\u2013 in\u2013 in uh\u2013 in life. (tape edit) just have a need for uh, security in the Temple and uh, I\u2019ll relinquish them if you uh, say I should.<\/p>\n

I have no absolutely no problem with anybody in the church. I think that everybody that left the church is just a sheer asshole, and any information that they tell me, I intend to s\u2013 turn over to you directly\u2013 or, they\u2013 they won\u2019t be telling me, \u2018cause I won\u2019t be talking to them, but any information I find out from\u2013 I mean, any information that I\u2013 that I learn from them, one way or another, I intend to turn over to you immediately or your designated representative. I think that the people who\u2019ve left the church should be shot, and if I uh, had permission to do so, I\u2019d go shoot \u2018em myself. (tape edit) (unintelligible fragment) certainly no one at all is to blame for my conduct but me, \u2018cause the people in the Temple and especially you\u2013 especially you have always been uh, extraordinarily generous, thoughtful and concerned about uh, whatever happened to me. Nor have I ever seen anyone in the Temple working with any church project do anything that was any less than above board, in the highest spirit of uh, Christian humanism.<\/p>\n

Finally, let me say that the car I\u2019ve bought, which is 1976 uh, Toyota Corolla, has a uh, life and disability policy, whereby the car is automatically paid for and becomes the property of my uh, estate, should I die. You will find in the files that I have left on my desk a holographic will which is valid and which conveys all my uh, real and personal property, which includes the car, to uh, Carolyn Layton.<\/p>\n

(tape edit) \u2013doesn\u2019t make what I\u2019ve done any less wrong. It does insure at least that uh, somebody will\u2013 in the church will get uh, the value of the car (tape edit) \u2013(unintelligible fragment) That\u2013 That uh, I will say that I will promise you that I won\u2019t do anything uh, stupid to myself, uh, at least until I talk to you on uh, Tuesday, or Wednesday or whenever you want, or not necessarily you, but your reps\u2013 representative.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you. To read the Tape Summary, click here. Listen to MP3. To return to the Tape Index, click here. [Editor\u2019s note: This tape has innumerable pauses and edits, as the speaker pauses every few seconds. In most cases, the transitional words are clear. Only […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"parent":27291,"menu_order":589,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-85476","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/85476","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=85476"}],"version-history":[{"count":2,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/85476\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":85589,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/85476\/revisions\/85589"}],"up":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27291"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=85476"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}