{"id":85624,"date":"2019-02-13T10:36:07","date_gmt":"2019-02-13T18:36:07","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=85624"},"modified":"2025-09-03T16:45:02","modified_gmt":"2025-09-03T23:45:02","slug":"q568-transcript","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/?page_id=85624","title":{"rendered":"Q568 Transcript"},"content":{"rendered":"

(Editor\u2019s note:\u00a0<\/strong>The tape was transcribed by Vicki Perry. The editors gratefully acknowledge her invaluable assistance. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.)<\/em><\/p>\n

To return to the Tape Index, click here.<\/a>
\nTo read the Tape Summary, click here<\/a>. Listen to MP3 (Pt. 1<\/a>,\u00a0Pt. 2<\/a>).<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>\u2013and it\u2019s oh\u2013 Goddamn it\u2013 I\u2019m just\u2013 it makes me sick. I gu\u2013 I just don\u2019t care to get anything\u2013<\/p>\n

(tape edit )<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>\u2018Cause she [Clara Phillips] didn\u2019t only take<\/em> a property, and we have to go around and buy\u00a0<\/em>our goddamned property back, but then on her way out, after she got a good price for her property \u2013 she wouldn\u2019t tell me \u2013 she\u2019s (unintelligible phrase) that I\u2019m trying to kill her. It\u2019s like [Jack] Arnold did, I\u2019m tired of these fuckers. I think I\u2019ll put her on my list here. Uh, \u2018cause that\u2019s\u2013 that\u2019s really\u2013 that\u2019s really bad\u2013 that\u2019s really bad shit.<\/p>\n

Woman\u2019s voice in background:\u00a0<\/strong>Yes, it is.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>She told a\u2013 a John Birch member that we\u2013 she had to flee\u2013 I\u2019m fleeing for my life and I\u2019ve got my daughter [Janet Phillips] to safety. And then, she told Johnson that.<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>Well when Janet left, she told the hospital\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>She told the hospital.<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>\u2013to look in on her mother\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah, because I\u2013 I\u2013<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>\u2013that we were going to hurt her mother. Janet did.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>Marceline [Jones] or I would kill her mother. You know that kind of damned shit, and everybody knows that I don\u2019t go around killing nobody. I never killed nobody in my life. Just drop the protection. They can drop me, but I haven\u2019t even tried to do that to them. I said one of these selfish\u2013 Let \u2018em go on out, \u2018cause selflessness is its own reward. They\u2019re already unhappy.<\/p>\n

Male voice in background:\u00a0<\/strong>Hmm.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>Janet\u2019s a whore<\/em>. Janet Phillips is a whore. I had to admit it, she\u2019s a whore. She was seen in Reno, Nevada whoring around with a man and turned two to three different people she\u2019d been with.<\/p>\n

Woman\u2019s voice:\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah, that\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>She seemed to Alice [Inghram]\u2013 they look like\u2013 look like hell<\/em> had struck her. And you mention with Vickie [Moore]. They look like hell strikes her.<\/p>\n

Woman 2:\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n

Male:\u00a0<\/strong>That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>I don\u2019t have to do nothing with these people. Selfishness is its own\u00a0<\/em>pain. So I\u2019d rather be in pain for something principled<\/em> and die for that, than worry about saving my ass. That\u2019s\u2013and that\u2019s why\u2013 I wouldn\u2019t get as nervous<\/em> as you people do, if you think you\u2019re going to die. If all of you people didn\u2019t understand me even though I was a pure communist. If all\u00a0<\/em>of you people don\u2019t understand me, and you\u2019re ready to kill\u00a0<\/em>me there ain\u2019t no use for me in fighting it. (Pause) How\u2019d you like to kill me or I\u2019d get away and move someplace where there\u2019s some others. I sure wouldn\u2019t try to do no harm to you<\/em>. And I wouldn\u2019t be worrying about it, one way or the other\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman\u2019s voice:\u00a0<\/strong>I don\u2019t have\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>\u2013and I\u2019d probably figure if all of you didn\u2019t understand me\u2013 and there would\u2013 no shittin\u2019 use for me to try to go someplace else where they don\u2019t speak my language\u00a0<\/em>and fight a revolution<\/em>, \u2018cause the people speaking\u2013 and the English\u00a0<\/em>don\u2019t understand me, ain\u2019t no goddamned use for me to some place where they\u2019re speaking Spanish<\/em>.<\/p>\n

Group:\u00a0<\/strong>(Laughs)<\/p>\n

Marceline Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>I don\u2019t understand people wanting to live any way, \u2018cause I am\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>Well, hell, yes you\u2013 only live old enough to be in a nursing home to have your\u2013<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>Personally, I hope\u2013 you know I don\u2019t believe in the hereafter, but if I did, I wouldn\u2019t to have any part of it. I\u2013 Heaven to me would be never feeling again.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>Hmm. That would be the only way to have heaven.<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>And I\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>Unfortunately, there\u2019s some kind of immortality (unintelligible).<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>Uh, Phillip\u2013 (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah, that\u2019s\u2013 that\u2019s good. That\u2019s good. But you got this coming. I\u2013 I\u2013 I\u2013 I (unintelligible) feel, that\u2019s my bad part. I don\u2019t keep on center, and you need to drive me to center. I was trying\u00a0<\/em>to teach the difference between socialism and communism, and then under communism<\/em>, I want to put a tail on this end\u2013 if you\u2019ve got something to say that\u2019s relevant, (unintelligible word), don\u2019t let me forget where I\u2019m at. Mike [Prokes], you\u2019ll let me know where I\u2019m at.<\/p>\n

Mike:\u00a0<\/strong>Okay.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>I\u2019m trying to\u2013 we dealt with socialism. You understand what socialism is now?<\/p>\n

Group:\u00a0<\/strong>(Responds)<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>In communism, all property is done away. No\u2013 No more trespass sign. No more, this is my house. No more on the mailbox, Jones\u2019 h\u2013 property or Smith\u2019s property. It\u2019s all\u00a0<\/em>held in common. Then after it\u2019s all held in common, in a sufficient idealistic stage that people can be trusted\u2013 I\u2013 I would have a feeling, with some of you, I wouldn\u2019t have to tell you what was in your mind. Charlie [Touchette] said\u2013 he\u2013 he\u2013 he ain\u2019t go no money in his pocket but when he left the house, he said, here, take uh, all the shirts. That kind of an attitude. That\u2019s what you get when you\u2019re pure communist. You don\u2019t worry about it\u2013 and I say any\u2013 anything that I\u2013 I had, just take it.<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>And that doesn\u2019t mean, just because it\u2019s nobody\u2019s property, that it\u2019s nobody\u2019s responsibility. It\u2019s everybody\u2019s responsibility<\/em>.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>No.<\/p>\n

Male:\u00a0<\/strong>(unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>That\u2019s the problem. You people that think you throw your clothes down and don\u2019t shine your shoes are not materialistic. You are\u00a0<\/em>materialistic, because you don\u2019t take care of what\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>\u2018Cause you cost us more money. You cost us more money by (unintelligible word) those clothes.<\/p>\n

Male:\u00a0<\/strong>Hmmm.<\/p>\n

Woman:\u00a0<\/strong>(in background) That\u2019s true. That\u2019s true.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>And I haven\u2019t felt bad about that. I felt guilt about all these shoes today, and I didn\u2019t bring boots. Now (unintelligible word), what the hell\u2019s the matter with you, you didn\u2019t bring any boots? Uh, but I\u2013 I didn\u2019t uh\u2013 I\u2013 but I also felt guilty I didn\u2019t bring an extra pair of boots when we had to\u2013 We didn\u2019t know until the last minute, I was going to come. Arnold was caught with so much shit. And I said I can\u2019t disappoint these people, I battle back and forth. I can\u2019t disappoint the Promised Land anymore, so I\u2013<\/p>\n

Male:\u00a0<\/strong>(in background) Hmm-mmm. That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>\u2013ready to travel, and I\u2019m nervous as hell what\u2019s going on back there, \u2018cause Arnold\u2019s been a real shithead.<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>You haven\u2019t been able to get through on the radio.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>(talking over woman) That\u2019s how much I love\u00a0<\/em>you, \u2018cause I came here really contrary in any good (unintelligible word)sense, with Arnold acting up like he is.<\/p>\n

Male:\u00a0<\/strong>Hmm-hmm [Yes].<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>You never leave when a traitor\u2019s acting up, if you got good sense. You stay on a post (unintelligible word) I thought I cancelled you three times, and piss<\/em> on \u2018em. So I\u2019m here and then I\u2013 Then I can\u2019t make any radio contact, I just have to sit here and meditate that it\u2019ll be all right. And it will. It\u2019ll work out somehow.<\/p>\n

Woman:\u00a0<\/strong>I just think\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>Again, I\u2013 you remind me of that (unintelligible word), \u2018cause I don\u2019t know how the hell it\u2019s going to work out. \u2018Cause in my (unintelligible word) when I think it ain\u2019t working out. But the uh\u2013 uh, I felt bad I didn\u2019t think to take any kind of boots, I felt bad I didn\u2019t ti me to bring movies, but we didn\u2019t know for shit whether we were gonna get to go until the last thing.<\/p>\n

Woman:\u00a0<\/strong>(interrupting Jones) Just\u2013 Just having you here, you can\u2019t imagine what it means to us.<\/p>\n

Several in group:\u00a0<\/strong>(Laughs)<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>Now, I know you (unintelligible word)feel that way, but I still\u2013 I won\u2019t take my guilt away. I won\u2019t let you take all my guilt away. I wish to hell we\u2019da planned better.<\/p>\n

Group:\u00a0<\/strong>(Laughs)<\/p>\n

Male:\u00a0<\/strong>I think\u2013 I think uh, that uh, somebody like Ellen [likely Penny Kerns] or Eva [Pugh] ought to send us down a package with complete gear for both of you to wear when you\u2019re down there, then you won\u2019t ever have to worry about bringing these things down here, they\u2019ll just be put back, and they\u2019ll be here when you get here.<\/p>\n

(Jones and woman speaking at same time)<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>My problem\u2013 my problem was I worked till Thursday.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>Well, my\u00a0<\/em>problem is I get all\u2013 more stuff than us actually leave. That\u2019s why I (unintelligible) things I want to leave. Every time we come here I bring stuff I want to leave. I brought a watch, and I\u2019m going to leave that watch. Every time\u2013 there\u2019s a lot of taking things of that\u2013 of that nature. But the damn watch isn\u2019t working very well\u2013 what does it happen to these watches when we get down here?<\/p>\n

(Several voices override Jones)<\/p>\n

Male:\u00a0<\/strong>It\u2019s the climate\u2013 they\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman:\u00a0<\/strong>They need to be waterproof.<\/p>\n

Male:\u00a0<\/strong>We got these four dollar watches that are\u2013 that are all right. We shouldn\u2019t be wearing wrist\u2013 wristwatches when we go into Georgetown anyway and uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>Well, I gave Jan mine, \u2018cause I thought she should have one with a second hand for\u2013 for that clinic\u2013 but at the time\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah. But she used it\u2013 (unintelligible) sense to wear it in front of people that just be enticing you. \u2018Cause you can get your damn throat slit by looking too well dressed.<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>(unintelligible) pocket watch here and this seems to be better (unintelligible)\u2013<\/p>\n

(Several people talk at once_<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>The little selfish preacher in Los Angeles got murdered uh\u2013 just week before last. That\u2019s what\u2013 (stumbles over words) you left that selfish preacher in San Francisco got murdered. They put him in the trunk of the car, you remember? They put him in the trunk (unintelligible). They murdered him and put him in the trunk\u2013 Church of God in Christ preacher, \u2018cause he had a ring on. So you see, selfishness\u00a0<\/em>is its own reward. When you walk down as a socialist today (unintelligible under movement of microphone) you don\u2019t got a lot of property, don\u2019t have to\u2013 to have yourself looking real keen. You look real keen, walk down the street, you\u2019re trying to get your ass killed.<\/p>\n

Woman:\u00a0<\/strong>That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>You look like a bum<\/em>, they\u2019ll let you walk anywhere.<\/p>\n

Group:\u00a0<\/strong>(Laughs)<\/p>\n

(Several people all talking together)<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>There\u2019s a lot of redeeming things to be said about this country. Though I\u2019m a depressionist, because I want\u2013 always cynically look at our strategy, but I\u2019ve never been so impressed as to be able to walk right in your prime minister\u2019s office, and you can look like a damn bum. I was sitting there and some bum walked up<\/em>. I mean he just walked up. He had a gripe with the prime minister, and the secretary was just as patient with that person as if they\u2019d been somebody stepped out of a Cadillac, probably far more. I just want to get all these incongruities put together in my mind and know exactly where we are in Guyana. Maybe they just don\u2019t trust us, because they don\u2019t think we\u2019re socialists. Maybe they don\u2019t trust us because they think we\u2019re too\u00a0<\/em>socialist, but I doubt that. If they\u2013 If that\u2019s\u00a0<\/em>the case, we do have problems.<\/p>\n

Woman:\u00a0<\/strong>Uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>Uh\u2013 Back to the stages of communism. So government\u2013 government\u2013 government\u2013 government withers away, when you have all\u00a0<\/em>properties held in common and everybody can be trusted, like Charlie and I can share shirts and we bring each other\u2019s shirts back like it was when we took them. And we don\u2019t have to (unintelligible word) any police then any more. China\u2019s already done away with its local police in most cities, \u2018cause there\u2019s no theft<\/em>, there\u2019s no murder<\/em>\u2013 There was seven murders last year, there\u2019s no murders this year. And that\u2019s\u2013 that\u2019s pretty\u2013 that\u2019s a pretty strong evidence that communism will work. No police in any of the big cities any more. No theft. They\u2013 They don\u2019t lock a hotel room, don\u2019t lock the car door. You never see nobody throw any litter on the streets. As my mo\u2013 mom\u2013 mother [Lynetta Jones] said, responsibility\u00a0<\/em>goes along with communism. Everybody<\/em> feels they own that street, and everybody\u2019ll take care<\/em> of that street, so nobody spits on that street, and there isn\u2019t a piece of litter. You can see the movie. Too bad we didn\u2019t bring one of the movies, to see how clean\u00a0<\/em>everything is. Because of the pride. Then<\/em>, the\u2013 uh\u2013 uh, the Marx communist thought is, after\u00a0<\/em>people come to that\u00a0<\/em>stage, perfection, pure living, as was the day of Pentecost (unintelligible word), religious identification for the few that needed it. Uh, pure<\/em> socialism. Pure<\/em> communism. Socialism, communism, the last stage. Then you need no more government<\/em>. You don\u2019t need nobody to tell you what to do, what (unintelligible). You don\u2019t need no leaders like me. Everybody has a conscience that leads them and directs them. But that\u2019s a long way off.<\/p>\n

Voices:\u00a0<\/strong>Assent.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>That don\u2019t happen tomorrow.<\/p>\n

Male:\u00a0<\/strong>No.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>And if you say, well, I don\u2019t want to follow no leader, \u2018cause I\u2019m ready for communism, then you got to be a better leader than the leader you\u2019re criticizing.<\/p>\n

Woman:\u00a0<\/strong>Assents.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>And if you\u2019re a better leader than the real leader you\u2019re criticizing, you\u2019re going to work with that leader a long, long time before you even (unintelligible word) think\u00a0<\/em>that you\u2019re a better leader (unintelligible).<\/p>\n

Woman:\u00a0<\/strong>That\u2019s true. (unintelligible). I think, though, uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>How many understood that, though? I want to know how many understood that (unintelligible). You got any more questions? You could ask me. (unintelligible) explain it to you. Some of you got<\/em> it now, you can explain it to him, \u2018cause now he\u2019s come a long way.<\/p>\n

Male:\u00a0<\/strong>What\u2019s\u2013 what would be\u2013 is there anything about communism\u2013 I mean if\u2013 if like in a hundred years or whatever the period of time it\u2019d be that\u2013 like China would achieve the purest communist goal or\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>They\u2019ll never a\u2013 achieve pure communism until it\u2019s international communism. You see, before the war, you couldn\u2019t do away with your army because\u2013<\/p>\n

Male:\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>You only got a bunch of capitalist pigs on your border, you\u2013 you always got to have a strong army.<\/p>\n

Male:\u00a0<\/strong>Well, like, let\u2019s say it\u2019s international communism, then what would be\u2013 what would\u2013 Is there anything above the commu\u2013 the communists, or is it just the ultimate thing\u2013<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>What could be any higher than\u2013<\/p>\n

Male:\u00a0<\/strong>Well, that\u2013 that\u2019s what\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman:\u00a0<\/strong>You know, everybody being so selfless, you don\u2019t even need government.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>Perfection of understanding and love. Perfect sharing\u2013 perfect sharing. No more jealousy. That\u2019s what I would see as the ideal (unintelligible word). Like I\u2019m at, right now. My wife wants you? You want my wife? And I love you both. Happy, happy. When you love somebody, you don\u2019t want to hold\u00a0<\/em>them. You want to free\u00a0<\/em>them. You understand what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Male:\u00a0<\/strong>Umm-hmm [Yes].<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>But, being that no other communist nation has tried that, I\u2019d\u2013 I would say Jones, temper your own goodness, \u2018cause people are not ready for that goodness. You see what I\u2019m saying? That\u2019s why I don\u2019t forge ahead in the Peoples Temple, to do that. Make a demand. Ideas, that\u2019s where we\u2019d be better off. Then there\u2019d be no dangers of pocket relationships forming. But if you don\u2019t see it practically done anywhere\u2013 Where Lenin started and backed off from it, he must\u2019ve had some reasons to back off from it. He must have found it to be, don\u2019t need every counter-revolutionary tendencies of the first magnitude. My\u00a0<\/em>opinion is, if you backed off from it\u2013 if you backed off from coupling relationships, you should back off from sex. Because sex can\u2019t be shared for this reason. The fucker that\u2019s the best looking gets more, \u2018cause it\u2019s so superficial.<\/p>\n

Male:\u00a0<\/strong>Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>Sex is superficial. The best fucker gets more (unintelligible). Now if<\/em> I were a very selfish person I\u2019d say, let\u2019s make it all free, \u2018cause I\u2019d get most of the fucking. You hear what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Several voices:\u00a0<\/strong>Assent.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>I don\u2019t mean that smart ass either. Because I can fuck\u00a0<\/em>longer, I can fuck more actively than the norm, I\u2013 I\u2019d get more service<\/em>. So it\u2019s obvious that I\u2013 uh\u2013 I\u2019m very, very unselfish. I don\u2019t break that up. But then, I always look behind at sex is a masquerade anyway, it\u2019s a big masquerade. I don\u2019t care how well you fuck, and I\u2019ve fucked for hours. It\u2019s a big masquerade. Women can\u2019t do anything but hate men, because they\u2019ve been the oppressed class too long. That\u2019s what you don\u2019t show when you throw your dick out. They don\u2019t be interested in your dick. Only some women, and they\u2019ll slip up on you some night and they\u2019ll cut your fucking dick off.<\/p>\n

Woman:\u00a0<\/strong>That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>\u2018Cause they\u2013 they\u2013 they\u2019re really upset about dicks in the first place. What women really want from men is camaraderie. I\u2019ve been through too many women sexually, and I\u2019ve got enough sexual ability. I\u2013 It just uh\u2013 like CT [Charlie Touchette] has been capable as a salesman. I\u2019m<\/em> capable as a fucker. But I still\u2013 You know I (unintelligible). You hear something.<\/p>\n

Women in background laugh<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>But I have found, that no (unintelligible word) how much capability I had, it never bred the best things in the woman. Share my mind with them, it bred good things, but sharing my body did not. Unfortunately<\/em>, to the discredit of women, I had to start there sometimes. (Pause) That\u2019s a honest statement.<\/p>\n

Male:\u00a0<\/strong>Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>A very dangerous\u00a0<\/em>statement to make in a general church situation, because it can be used against you, and I\u2019ve done this even publicly, which is stupid, and honestly, it does not pay off with some people. (unintelligible phrase), I\u2019m not concerned about it, but in the church setting, it\u2019s a very dangerous thing, and you\u2019ve heard me say that (unintelligible).<\/p>\n

Male:\u00a0<\/strong>Yes.<\/p>\n

Woman:\u00a0<\/strong>Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>And it\u2019s a very stupid thing to say and be that honest. \u2018Cause the person, aha! The only\u2013 the only way people give to you sexually is because they think that they\u2013 (Pause) they\u2019re very important and uh, (Pause) they\u2019re very exceptional. (Pause) Well, I\u2019ve never felt anybody\u2013 found my match in screwing, so nothing challenges me too much. You get what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Male:\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>Ain\u2019t nothing challenges me that much. Somebody says, that\u2019s the way (unintelligible phrase), you know, you know your leader\u2019s not going to go off track. I\u2019ve screwed \u2018em all. And every screw is about the same. But, even with my\u00a0<\/em>proficiency in screwing, it hasn\u2019t been adequate to meet anybody\u2019s needs<\/em>. Basically<\/em>, it\u2019s engendered insecurity, it\u2019s engender\u2013 (unintelligible word)\u2013 the only real value it\u2019s been is with our few traitors. I think some others who\u2019ve come to maturity coulda come in other ways. And I think they can come in other ways. Let me tell about one woman I screwed for seven hours. Maybe that woman alone had to do it, \u2018cause she was really caught up in it. There\u2019s some other women fuck for different reasons. You fuck for treason, you fuck to make people grow, fuck for pleasure, and damn little of that I get, uh, if you understand what I\u2019m saying, because if you love<\/em>, you\u2019re gonna be thinking about what the person needs, and that does take away from screwing. How many ever been screwing and thinking about\u2013 how many can honestly lift their hand and say when you were screwing somebody, you were thinking about their general welfare?<\/p>\n

Group:\u00a0<\/strong>(Laughs)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>S o, I\u2019m always thinking about the general welfare<\/em>. I figure I\u2019m starting\u00a0<\/em>something, I can\u2019t give them all what they need. A woman don\u2019t need to be screwed, she needs all the things that maybe I can give her. I can give her a home, I can give her support, I can give her um\u2013 benefit of my mind, I can help her rear the children, help do the domestic duties, but I can\u2019t do that. So I\u2013 I\u2019m always thinking about those things. So, I don\u2019t like to take anything when I can\u2019t give more than sex. I\u2019m thinking about their general welfare. That\u2019s why I\u2019ve given up screwing as a\u2013 as a therapy. Uh, I didn\u2019t keep all my treasures. Did save Grace Stoen from doing a hell of a big thing, but it cost me a hell of a big pain too. Probably took years off my life. Grace Stoen\u2019s been workin\u2019, \u2018cause she\u2019s grown nth degrees. Hell, we know this and don\u2019t need to talk about it.<\/p>\n

Male:\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah. Yes.<\/p>\n

(couple of voices all talking simultaneously)<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah, well, anyway, they (unintelligible) out this shit. They\u2013 he explained it enough, I nearly died. Tim Stoen. I don\u2019t do nothing for nobody\u2019s wife. Tim Stoen asked me to save her, and she was about to commit treason, and so I ended up with the goddamned pain of it. And his mamma knows, \u2018cause she\u2019s on the government board so I don\u2019t care uh\u2013 I ended up with a\u2013 a little\u2013 little one [John Victor Stoen] to have to maintain. Isn\u2019t nothing more cruel to me than having somebody brought in this world to maintain, \u2018cause I would never\u2019ve brought anybody into this world, if I had to do with it. That\u2019s why children all are\u2013 they all hate their parents, I\u2019m sure. They got good sense. The parents will say, \u201cyou should honor me.\u201d If anything, theparents should honor the damn child<\/em>, because it\u2019s a hell of a cruel thing to bring them into the world. And all of the guilt that I have, it was one of the most courageous things I ever did, \u2018cause when I screw, I get people pregnant through rubbers or whatever. It\u2019s bad. It\u2019s a bad deal. I can\u2019t help but think about that<\/em>, so that takes away from the pleasure too, you know. If you can\u2019t\u2013 if you\u2019re unselfish you got\u2013 and I don\u2019t think you can get the\u2013 if you get unselfish, I just think you give up what\u2019s true, and that\u2019s what I think it really boils down to. If you really\u00a0<\/em>get unselfish, just give the damned thing up, because it\u2019s a uh\u2013 a selfish act. It really boils down to that. And it\u2019ll never<\/em> be shared equally, because I\u2019ve tried hard, for this cause, and to save and to get you things, I\u2019ve screwed people 60, nearly 70. I\u2019ve screwed the ugliest people I\u2019ve ever seen. And I don\u2019t mean anybody\u2013 in any group\u2013 in the group here or at home. I mean the ugliest people I\u2019ve ever met. Prostitutes (unintelligible word). That\u2019s the only place a prostitute can be accepted. She\u2019s ready to commit suicide. Would be no good to say you got a sweet soul, she had to feel that she looked good. But she was over the hill. But I still\u00a0<\/em>see sexual preferences. Certain bodies look better. Certain things add to the attraction. And anything that\u2019s discriminatory is not love. If it\u2019s love in the equal (unintelligible). Wouldn\u2019t it? If it was love (unintelligible) at all. But you don\u2019t have sexual preference to save people, do you?<\/p>\n

Several:\u00a0<\/strong>No.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>So you know it\u2019s not a high form of\u2013 of\u2013 of love. (Pause) So if I<\/em> were to\u2013 and the group\u2013 What we would ought to be at this revolutionary stage is no<\/em> sex, including the leader. And the leader would be glad to give it up, but the only reason I<\/em> haven\u2019t been able to give it up is that sometimes that\u2019s the only way I can keep somebody from hurting<\/em> you. And I\u2019ve tried<\/em> to give it up, while you were gone. Been trying for several months. None<\/em> of it. It was totally banned. And by God, we had treason. And I had to\u2013 They started\u2013 They would\u2013 They didn\u2019t keep their word. They didn\u2019t keep their word. We had people doing treason sex. How long was it, about three months? You were all gone. Three months? Four months? Prokes?<\/p>\n

Prokes:\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>I\u2013 I\u2013 I want to be accurate. It musta been three or four months, it was totally banned.<\/p>\n

Prokes: <\/strong>At least three months.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>And treason started out. And by God, when somebody starts using sex and acting treasonous, I got to show \u2018em, well, you can\u2019t screw as well as I do. You see, you get the point?<\/p>\n

Several:\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah. Umm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>I got to move in there and show, well, you fucker, you going to try and fuck one of people away into capitalism and into death? I\u2019ll fuck \u2018em back into socialism. If that makes any sense.<\/p>\n

Voices:\u00a0<\/strong>Assent<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>And obviously<\/em>, I\u2019m very honest<\/em>, because of the sex drive I need. I need to relax and get some of that pressure out, but when you\u2019re honest like this, nobody can\u2013 nobody can relate to you, because they\u2019re paranoid<\/em>. Then they have all these (unintelligible word) with me because I\u2019m a traitor or you dealing with me because I need to grow. E\u2013 everybody gets insecure about it. So I\u2019ve cut myself from all expression except talking, and I sure hate to talk. Maria [Katsaris], I said the other day, somebody said, well, I\u2019ve never asked you to fuck. I said, you talk so goddamned much, I wish you\u2019da asked me to fuck, because if I\u2019da fucked you three times, it woulda been a hell of a lot less weight on me than all the fucking talking. You can fuck a Father in a lot of ways. So he started (unintelligible word) I\u2019ve never fucked with Father, but you\u2019ve talked\u00a0<\/em>me to death.<\/p>\n

Woman:\u00a0<\/strong>Un-hmm.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>You know what I\u2019m saying? I\u2019m not saying anybody here. But people can talk<\/em> your fucking ass off, and I\u2019d just as soon have a raw dick<\/em>, as a raw throat. Right, Mother?<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah. (laughs)<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>I mean a throat\u00a0<\/em>hurts too.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>And I don\u2019t mean you, \u2018cause you\u2019ve got to have this teaching,. You\u2019re not asking for it. You\u2019re trying to get me out of it. You\u2019ve not held on to me. Nobody\u2019s done anything\u2013 anything bad to me here. But at home, they do it all the time. They talk me to death. I get tired of those self-righteous people. (Assumes tone of critic) I know how many people fucking Father. (Normal tone) I said, well, quit\u00a0<\/em>talking me to death too, you sons of bitches.<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>I\u2019ve found\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>You know it\u2019s equally bad just to talk somebody to death.<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>And also\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>Some of you are beautiful. You don\u2019t fuck me, you don\u2019t talk to me either. (Short laugh)<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>Some of the people that are\u2013 get the most angry about, you know\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>It\u2019s because they haven\u2019t been fucked.<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>It\u2013 It\u2019s because there\u2013 there\u2019s not enough time for them<\/em> to have it, you know. The people that say, you know, I get mad at these people pulling on him. Now this is normal.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>I invite self-criticism, and that is a good point, I\u2019m glad you brought that up.<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>\u2013or a setup.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>I invite self-criticism in the\u2013 in the PC [Planning Commission]. And so, a woman made this very statement. She got a\u2013 she wrote me a letter. Oh, we must sin and serve. Father, you\u2019re prejudiced. You fuck only white women. Of course, she didn\u2019t know what she was talking about. \u2018Cause I\u2013 I never do\u2013 I never embarrassed a black person or a person who\u2019s a Native American. They are already niggerized. The white people don\u2019t want me to get niggerized. She\u00a0<\/em>don\u2019t know what the hell she talking\u00a0<\/em>about.<\/p>\n

Prokes:\u00a0<\/strong>She wanted it.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>She didn\u2019t know\u2013 but\u2013 but\u2013 but she\u2013 oh, the goddamnedest charges. She said, you are prejudiced, you only fuck white women, (makes \u201cblah blah\u201d noises). And she thought I was just going to read\u00a0<\/em>this. Joyce Shaw is the one that did it. I said, nah, sister, you\u2019ve sent me a message in the calmest voice. And she counted on one of either two things, I either fuck her or throw her out. And I didn\u2019t do either one, and she was really frustrated.<\/p>\n

Group:\u00a0<\/strong>(Laughs)<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>And she\u2019s come along pretty well. I said, now, sister, I\u2019m going to read this, and her face turns four flushes of red. I\u2013 I\u2013 she want to read all public? I said yes, I\u2019ve got nothing to hide. A\u2013 Any criticism you want to give me, I\u2019ve got an answer for, because I\u2019m pure<\/em>, I\u2019m honest<\/em>.<\/p>\n

Male:\u00a0<\/strong>That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>So I dealt with this, I said, now, you don\u2019t know the black ones, because I don\u2019t intend for you to know the black ones, they\u2019ve had enough pain. You\u2019ve only known the white<\/em> ones. And I said now if\u2013 if\u2013 if it\u2019s discriminatory<\/em>, if it\u2019s anything<\/em>, you accuse me of fucking the white. I said, what is sex? It\u2019s a hostile<\/em> act. It\u2019s aggressive<\/em>. I\u2019m very aggressive. So I said, if anything<\/em>, it\u2013 uh, I\u2019m prejudiced against<\/em> white.<\/p>\n

Male:\u00a0<\/strong>Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>\u2013if I\u2019d only fuck white people.<\/p>\n

Group:\u00a0<\/strong>(Laughs)<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>You get the point, because the sexual<\/em> part of me is a very aggressive side. (unintelligible sentence). And the only reason I\u2019m saying is that because I might have to fuck somebody here.<\/p>\n

Male:\u00a0<\/strong>You\u2019re the only one that can do it.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>But it\u2019s the truth. It\u2019s the truth that gentleness is there, but the gentler\u00a0<\/em>I get, the further I get away from sex. If you follow me. You follow what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Scattered voices in group:\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>The gentler moment is further away from it, because my\u2013 I\u2019m very aggressive. I can\u2013 I can uh, give it all that\u2013 oh, shit, with this stuff is heavy (unintelligible) reason it\u2019s such a painful subject. I hate to talk about it, and (unintelligible word) to talk about it, and it\u2019s painful to you who have has been through it. (Sighs)<\/p>\n

Woman:\u00a0<\/strong>(unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>I said\u00a0<\/em>that.<\/p>\n

Woman:\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah, I say I\u2013 (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>I\u2013 I\u2013 I\u2013 and who you think I\u2019m talking\u00a0<\/em>about?<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>Uh\u2013 It\u2019s not\u2013 it\u2019s not so painful<\/em>. It\u2019s just that it\u2019s\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>But you know\u2013 you know\u2013<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>Why\u2013 why you keep on needing\u00a0<\/em>it.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>But you know it\u2019s necessary, don\u2019t you? \u2018Cause she said that just this morning. You know it\u2019s necessary\u2013<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>I think\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>Not in this setting. We weren\u2019t talking about it in this setting.<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>I think it\u2019s too bad that women and in\u2013 in life, uh\u2013 are so\u2013 that they think that love is synonymous with sex<\/em>.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>Contrary. It\u2019s on the contrary.<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>It\u2019s the contrary<\/em>. It\u2019s hostile. Sex is hostile.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>It\u2019s an aggressive act. And I insist you women are just as aggressive as the men are.<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>You don\u2019t want (unintelligible word) conservative, but you\u2019re just as aggressive.<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>That\u2019s the way you have of controlling a man. I\u2019m telling you that when women\u00a0<\/em>are liberated, you men\u00a0<\/em>are going to be liberated. If you think you\u2019re liberated when you\u2019ve got a woman\u00a0<\/em>under your thumb, you\u00a0<\/em>are a slave<\/em>, \u2018cause you\u2019ve got to have that woman under your thumb to feel secure. You\u2019re a slave to your own insecurity.<\/p>\n

Prokes:\u00a0<\/strong>That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>And it\u2019s not my\u2013 It\u2019s not\u2013 It\u2019s not my theory either. You go and read any psychiatrist, even the capitalist world, and they\u2019ll tell you in all their studies in there, and they\u2019ve done analysis, they\u2019ve backed it up with some empirical evidence whereas this psychiatrist you were mentioning, I said, I\u2019d like to know where his evidence is. He may have something. Uh, it\u2019s hard for me to relate to his evidence. I do want to read that book, though, don\u2019t let me forget to get that book. (unintelligible word). But they have done test after test on survey after survey of thousands of women, how you like sex? And sex will be\u2013 I think it\u2019s number seven on the list of priorities. Women are just not interested that much in sex. And the only reason they\u2019re interested in it is because (unintelligible word) because they\u2019re masochistic uh, and because they are also unliberated, and if a man approves of them, then that means that they\u2019re more important.<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>Sadists.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>Sadists, yes, it\u2019s sadist.<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>Powerful.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>But uh\u2013 But the sex\u00a0<\/em>act itself to a woman is very low on the priorities list. Very\u00a0<\/em>low on the priorities. And I\u2019m\u2013 I\u2019m going by lots<\/em> of documented evidence. So no man needs to feel insecure<\/em>, because he don\u2019t think his wife\u2019s performing, and the best<\/em> performers are the prostitutes<\/em>. That\u2019s why men go to them and pay forty dollars for a (unintelligible word).<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>And they don\u2019t give a\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>And uh a\u2013 all <\/em>prostitutes by a test after test are lesbians\u00a0<\/em>who hate men, but they just learn how to say the right \u201cooh,\u201d where you\u2019re supposed to say it, and the right \u201caah\u2019s\u201d and they move the hip just right. (Fake orgasmic sigh) You know, all those sighs that men call for. I can see through those sighs. Shit. I see those sighs. All the women got about the same sighs anyway. Particularly if you s\u2013 are very sharp and been around as much as I have. The shar\u2013 their sighs are so much\u2013 they musta been teaching\u00a0<\/em>each other, where their sighs are supposed to come, and if I was paranoid\u2013 I\u2019d give the little\u2013 I\u2019d\u2013 I\u2019d\u2013 the ones, they don\u2019t have a conspiracy, so they get together, how to trick men.<\/p>\n

Group:\u00a0<\/strong>(laughter)<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>Uh, the other uh\u2013 To switch to another subject, but the thing that I had to really deal with, and probably it\u2019s the hardest\u00a0<\/em>thing, I mean, like\u00a0<\/em>the fact that all you women were screwing my husband, but the fact that you\u00a0<\/em>use me\u00a0<\/em>to get near him and didn\u2019t\u2013 you know\u2013 uh\u2013 I had to face\u00a0<\/em>the fact that there are very few\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>There ain\u2019t nobody woman here, no woman here she\u2019s talking to, so you better be careful with what you say.<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>No, I\u2019m not talking\u2013 but\u2013 No\u2013 I\u2019m talking about, you know, out here, in the whole church situation, and being\u2013 being the leader\u2019s wife\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>She\u2019s talking about somebody we talked this morning, and that is the truth. That\u2019s where (unintelligible).<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>It\u2019s a lonely\u2013 it\u2019s a lonely situation. Uh, you know, as far as really having any friends, I mean people you can talk to, there\u2019s nobody, really, usually. But you still\u2013 I\u2013 I was really Pollyannaish, and I needed\u00a0<\/em>the camaraderie of another woman or other women, you know, someone I could talk to. And to\u2013 the hardest\u00a0<\/em>thing for me to face was the fact that most women didn\u2019t give a damn\u00a0<\/em>about being a friend to me, but used\u00a0<\/em>me to get to him.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>She\u2019s talking about a woman that you wouldn\u2019t think about, and wouldn\u2019t know that is not commonly known to leadership.<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>Now, that\u2019s not true of everyone. It\u2019s about something I had\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>She\u2019s speaking about a specific woman, but I don\u2019t want you to make any deductions about women back home in leadership, \u2018cause she\u2019s wro\u2013 uh\u2013 she\u2019s not\u2013 she\u2019s not aiming\u2013 uh, aiming that at any\u2013 any woman that you would know. You wouldn\u2019t guess it\u2013 you wouldn\u2019t guess it. I\u2013 I\u2013 I can tell ya nine\u2013 nine\u2013 nine million dollars, she\u2013 none of you could have (unintelligible word)t.<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>But it is the\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>There\u2019s a woman, she thought she could find some camaraderie, not\u00a0<\/em>sex, but camaraderie, because Marceline and I had sexual fulfillment, as much as sex goes. She\u2019s had more orgasms than (unintelligible word) have and uh, occasionally Marceline uh, has fought battles in terms of sexual and my ugly and uh\u2013 She\u2019s not ugly to me, she\u2019s a very attractive woman. So that\u2019s the only purpose sex has had with her<\/em>, and it\u2019s greatly diminished for that need to feel important.<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>No, you know, I don\u2019t uh\u2013 but I can\u2019t\u2013 This is down through the years\u00a0<\/em>though. The right\u2013 but today we were talking about me, as a person that happens to do with uh, family, but down through the years, this<\/em> has been the hardest thing for me to overcome. But that<\/em> was selfish<\/em> of me, you know. It wasn\u2019t the highest<\/em> in me.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>She wasn\u2019t hearing my message fully, because nobody loves Father<\/em>.<\/p>\n

Male:\u00a0<\/strong>Hmm.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>So why should they love Mother<\/em>? If they don\u2019t love the\u00a0<\/em>leader who\u2019s the closest to\u00a0<\/em>the power, they\u2019re not going to love the second\u00a0<\/em>closest to the power. Everybody uses me<\/em>, and I accept that as a fact of life<\/em>. I\u2013 I would be no more effective than\u2013 Someone said to me, uh, and I said to I don\u2019t know I\u2013 (unintelligible under movement of microphone) but I said well, that\u2019s why I\u2013 I follow you, because you got Lester\u2019s (unintelligible word). Well the first place, I didn\u2019t try to (unintelligible). I was just peeling my heart and Lester\u2019s heart, talking about Lester [Mathison], you\u2019re needed here. And I didn\u2019t get down on whether Lester was (unintelligible word) here, \u2018cause somebody\u2013 I went home and thought, my God. Notice I say home. Home is where anyplace I\u2019m at too. Some of you talkin\u2019 about home being here or America, I don\u2019t give a shit where home is. It can be in that shithouse, I don\u2019t\u2013 home is (laughs) where I\u2013<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>(unintelligible) (laughs)<\/p>\n

Prokes:\u00a0<\/strong>That\u2019s where my\u00a0<\/em>home\u2019s been anyway. (laughs)<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>But I thought, now that person is saying about the truth. But they ought to deal<\/em> with that truth. And I don\u2019t mean this unkindly to you, and I don\u2019t want you to feel that I do, but you were saying, as long as I\u2019m effective, Jim Jones, I follow you. Nobody else could talk Lester into staying, so that\u2019s why I follow you. You get what I\u2019m saying? In so many terms, in so many words?<\/p>\n

Scattered voices:\u00a0<\/strong>That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>But I wasn\u2019t trying\u00a0<\/em>to get Lester to stay, I was just being principled\u00a0<\/em>with Lester. I\u2019d already made up my mind, if Lester wanted to come home, he wanted to get on (unintelligible word) boat and save him some money and from there on to Miami, he could get back in the States. Uh, but the moment I cannot keep Lester\u2019s home and somebody else can do that, this is home. That showed my Freudian feeling, this is the best home you can get, under the present circumstances. I think you are fortunate to be here. You can always tell a person by their Freudian talk. And that\u2019s uh\u2013 so I think this is the best home you got. And I didn\u2019t want to see Lester go back to America, \u2018cause that\u2019s\u2013 that\u2019s (unintelligible word). That\u2019s dangerous. It\u2019s deathly. Here, at least you won\u2019t face\u00a0<\/em>concentration camps<\/a>. You can go in the jungle<\/em>, by God. No matter what happens to this government, you can go in the jungle. You don\u2019t have\u00a0<\/em>to go in that concentration camp. And uh\u2013 there\u2019s\u2013 there\u2019s not very many in this country, wouldn\u2019t take many guns to be able to defend yourself in this country. (unintelligible word) There\u2019s less than a million people. Three quarters of a million people in the whole damned country, most of them in Georgetown.<\/p>\n

Woman:\u00a0<\/strong>Uh-hmm.<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>You got a real advantage. With a few more people, we got the majority\u00a0<\/em>out here. Ain\u2019t nobody going to push us around. That\u2019s why it appeals to me. Not because [Forbes] Burnham\u2019s a great man. I got doubts\u00a0<\/em>about Burnham. I got less doubts about [Ptolemy] Reid, but I\u2013 even\u2013 none of them. It\u2013 It\u2019s just that I like this where we got lots\u00a0<\/em>of room. Lots of trees. And we need to get more\u00a0<\/em>finesse about how to get through\u00a0<\/em>those trees. \u2018Cause now, only with my homing, it\u2013 I can go in these goddamned woods and come out in the same place. I did it in Matthew\u2019s Ridge. I did it last\u2013 yesterday. Yesterday.<\/p>\n

Woman:\u00a0<\/strong>This morning?<\/p>\n

Male:\u00a0<\/strong>This morning?<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>Uh, no.<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>Is\u2013 what time is it?<\/p>\n

Jones:\u00a0<\/strong>I went for three hours when I went out in the jungle and I went through the goddamned\u2013 I\u2019m going to test my homing powers, you know. I thought, if I\u2019m here, I want to test<\/em> it, because we have very little jungle training, so I went through the goddamned jungle and then I come right back up here, straight across here, the length. I\u2013 I wandered for three hours in that jungle. I wouldn\u2019t recommend you<\/em> do that, because that\u2019s a damned confusing jungle, but I got a homing\u00a0<\/em>sense or something. I don\u2019t know what the hell it is, but I come right back to where I come out. I did it at Matthew\u2019s Ridge. All (unintelligible under microphone). I took the liberty. All that first week I took liberty (unintelligible word). I\u2019ve been into the goddamned jungle and then I\u2019m right back out to our dining room. And they didn\u2019t know shit from apple butter where they were. \u2018Cause you get in that jungle and you can\u2019t see a thing. It all\u2013 it\u2019s everything, the sky. You don\u2019t see nothing. The\u2013 The trees are so high and the brush is so high. You can\u2019t see around that. So, what I started to say about homing, We got off on a tangent. That\u2019s why I don\u2019t have a good memory. I try to (unintelligible).<\/p>\n

Marceline:\u00a0<\/strong>He\u2019s better than anyone else to keep from\u2013<\/p>\n

(End of Side A)<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

(Side B)<\/strong><\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>\u2013 and had that many group\u2013 uh, had that group you got down to see that is a (unintelligible word) point of reaction. I rarely see that here<\/em>. And they see me<\/em> in that role here.<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong>Now could I\u2013 I wanted to ana\u2013 analyze (unintelligible) a little bit of what happened with Lester and you. I think sometimes the reason some of us cannot reach people in their despair is because we don\u2019t love enough to share enough of ourselves \u2013 our true<\/em> selves \u2013 and be honest with those people.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong>Um-hmm.<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong>\u2018Course, the person that you\u2019re talking<\/em> to has to be at a point of honesty too,<\/em> to be able to accept that honesty and I think Lester at that point was<\/em>\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong>(unintelligible).<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong>\u2013but I think\u2013 I think it was the love and the honesty which you felt made it, that I\u2019ve known of, and unless you can really share what you are with someone, you don\u2019t love \u2018em. You hope\u2013 you know, and\u2013 and we do this because we\u2019re afraid we\u2019re going to be hurt. You know. It\u2019s the\u2013 we protect ourselves (unintelligible word).<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong>That\u2019s what I said to (unintelligible name). I\u2019ve made the comment when I was taken to\u2013 t\u2013 to whenever I was taking him to the boat, I said that, you know, if it would have been any of us and we\u2019d been put in the same position of trying to uh\u2013 uh, get anyone, not just Lester but it was Lester, \u2018cause of him. Anyone to\u2013 to see reason about actually what he should do with his life. \u2018Cause no one could have done it except for Father. He\u2019s the only one that has that type of uh\u2013<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong>He\u2019s the only one that got us somewhere.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>And probably I would\u2019ve got it done then, if I\u2019d had the ego, but somebody said you knew, uh\u2013 Somebody else said, you knew you were going to keep him here. I said no, I didn\u2019t know I was going to keep him here. If I had known I was going to keep him here, he probably wouldn\u2019t have stayed, \u2018cause nobody responds to a\u2013 a damned arrogant attitude. You people know why I felt about it, \u2018cause in the\u2013 in the city I talked about just exactly how he\u2019d go home.<\/p>\n

Several voices:<\/strong>Uh-hmm.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>I had it all worked out and arranged, how he\u2019d go home.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong>(unintelligible) anyway.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>Sure. And any leader that goes in with a cocksure attitude he\u2019s going to change people\u2019s minds is a damned poor leader. No (unintelligible word) any operation like that.<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong>Not only that, it\u2019s\u2013 you know, the very quality that uh\u2013 oh, how do I want to say this? The\u2013 the very thing that makes you good quality is the fact that you are able to think for yourselves. You\u2013 Most of you people were not blind followers.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>(unintelligible) sleeping and so forth.<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong>And uh\u2013 As I said, it\u2019s not conflict<\/em> that\u2019s wrong. Out of conflict, comes growth<\/em>, if you don\u2019t do some foolish thing. It\u2019s conflict.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong>That\u2019s why I\u2019m having trouble with\u2013 it\u2019s like\u2013 I know that I was never hung up in religion and\u2013 and\u2013 whenever I first came, I knew<\/em> life was\u2013 the\u2013 the thing that you had was real, because it\u2019s touched me so many times. I knew it was real. But I\u2019ve toyed and I\u2019ve thought in my mind, if you\u2013 I thought, if\u2013 if you<\/em> would happen to leave the scene, and you\u2013 someone else would be put in command that would\u2013 that you were sure, and you were only sure that if he could have the thing that\u2013 that could keep us together, then we would have<\/em>to. It would be our duty as a socialist. If we would even thought we were a small part of a socialist, we would have to follow the person, because it\u2019s our duty.<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong>We\u2019d have to support them<\/em>.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>You\u2019d have to\u2013 to\u2013 you trust in my judgement. Another thing you\u2019d have to trust my judgement about who I picked as leader.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong>It\u2019s sure absurd to think that a person who would\u2013 even\u2013 I can\u2019t think of the worst that would say that uh\u2013 uh, that the reason why the person followed you because what they said about whatever you said\u2013 I can\u2019t remember your exact words, \u2018cause to me that\u2019s asinine.<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong>And\u2013 and the other thing, not only would you be duty bound to follow<\/em> the person, but it would be your responsibility to do everything you could to help that person succeed<\/em>.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong>And more than what you would do with\u2013 with him.<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong>Yeah. And that\u2019s another thing uh\u2013 that I wanted to say while we stay here. We\u2019ll\u2013 we\u2019ll use\u2013 We\u2019ll go back to Kenny as an example. Kenny, you\u2019re going to start working. But we\u2019re<\/em> not gonna. We\u2019re gonna do everything we can to help him be successful doing a good job. We\u2019re going to show him how to work.<\/p>\n

Male (Kenny?):<\/strong>(clears throat) Right.<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong>And we\u2019re not going to stand up, and watch him sink or swim by himself<\/em>. We\u2019re going\u2013 if he\u2019s willing<\/em> to work, you know, you don\u2019t\u2013 you\u2019re not born knowing how to work, and sometimes I think when you haven\u2019t been not\u2013 taught how to work, you would rather not try to do a job than to fail at it.<\/p>\n

Group:<\/strong>Assents<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong>Especially when you have people around you that know how. So it\u2019s our responsibility to help this help<\/em> him, then he can help someone else. (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>I had to let go of him\u2013 I had uh\u2013 two (unintelligible)\u2013 you may grow and you may not. I also didn\u2019t forget anything. I never remember anything against anybody. The only reason I do is to condition myself to make a point of reference. Point of reference. I told it to (unintelligible) PC. I said don\u2019t ever let me forget the illustrations so that people can know they can be forgiven with Charlie\u2013 when\u2013 before he knew us, turned me into the FBI. I don\u2019t personally remember<\/em> that. I asked them to not let me forget that. There wasn\u2019t no discussion about this, so don\u2019t get paranoid, \u2018cause I\u2019m done (unintelligible word) our children\u2019s life. There was no discussion. It was the fact that I couldn\u2019t make any goddamned references. Somebody did mention it, but I said, don\u2019t let me (claps hands once) forget that. Said why, here\u2019s<\/em> your example. Wasn\u2019t a critical way. Said here\u2019s an example. I\u2019m trying to say I don\u2019t forg\u2013 I don\u2019t remember what\u2013 said he was (unintelligible) uh\u2013 I don\u2019t know what all he\u2019s been doing. I said what was it\u2013 (unintelligible) you remember? I said, don\u2019t let me\u2013 I said I don\u2019t remember things against people.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong>You\u2019ve used that before when arousing him, you\u2013 you said that\u2013 I can\u2019t\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>Well, I didn\u2019t even remember Charlie then.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>\u2018Cause somebody alluded to it. They said we will keep Charlie as a point of\u2013 of reference. I\u2013 I\u2013 I said that. They\u2013 they didn\u2019t say that at all. They said, well, here\u2019s an example. Poor Charlie came in, he turned you over to the FBI, uh, trying to keep his family from coming in, \u2018cause he was threatened<\/em>, he didn\u2019t know what the hell it was all about. He hated socialism and all everybody in America\u2019s been talking, is socialism, that\u2019s a dirty word<\/em>. And so uh\u2013 and I (unintelligible) he\u2019s the head of the project.<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong>I think it\u2019s an example of\u2013 you know, that there is hope.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>Hope? I\u2013 I would say (unintelligible; Marceline talking over Jones)<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong>(unintelligible) love<\/em> followers, and you know.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>You got one of the most responsible posts.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>Of something you can look at. And even though at one time he betrayed<\/em> me before he knew me, in all fairness. But people who h\u2013 have betrayed me (unintelligible) and still have (unintelligible). I better not get into that. I need an illustration about him, \u2018cause this was before he knew me (unintelligible word). There was no barrier to getting into (unintelligible). So you can change and I will forget it, even though I\u2019ve got\u2013 now\u2013 uh, now Johnson\u2019s sleeping, but I\u2013 I know that ninety percent\u2013 not only is he asleep (unintelligible word)\u2013 ninety percent of what I\u2019m being said, what\u2019s being said or some (unintelligible word) exchange, is not being heard. But I keep on talking, even if there\u2019s just one\u2013 one hope in here that somebody will hear. Lot of people are talking but there\u2019s no hope because that\u2019s what\u2019s right, you see, is to teach what\u2019s right. But I don\u2019t have any hope that you\u2019re gonna change, I don\u2019t have any hope about anybody changing. I just tell you what\u2019s right. I\u2019m not counting on you to change. I\u2019m certain\u2013 I\u2013 if you change, I will forget this altogether. I\u2019ll wipe it out, \u2018cause there\u2019s many in this room who don\u2019t think that I don\u2019t think (unintelligible) remember. The only reason I remember Charlie is because he said that\u2019ll be a point to hurt<\/em> you, so people will not be paranoid that you can always get ahead in this organization. But I\u2019ll be goddamned if I can think of anything else, because the only reason I can remember that is because they told me to remember it, and we agreed. They didn\u2019t tell me to remember, we agreed (unintelligible word) it, and I reinforced that son of a bitch in illustration a dozen times, you know, from the pulpit. Here\u2019s an example when you\u2019ve done wrong or you\u2019re up here in catharsis, you don\u2019t to have to, and I hope you don\u2019t mind being used that one. Uh, though I\u2019m sure he won\u2019t. Uh, but here\u2019s an example that if you\u2013 uh, when people really feel low about themselves, here\u2019s an example. You don\u2019t need to feel that there\u2019s no hope for you because the man that\u2019s the head of the foreign missionary for our hope for tomorrow, was a man who turned me over to the FBI. That gives a person (unintelligible) look up, you know, feel anything but to look up. \u2018Cause they get so damned lonely, can\u2019t see the bottom. That\u2019s one of the mistakes I\u2019ve made in the past (unintelligible) is uh\u2013 is that I have uh, I\u2013 I deal with everybody like me, I have no ego, so I think you ought just (unintelligible word) a shit<\/em> about me and not have to be told to pray, \u2018cause I can\u2019t do it. So, I\u2019ve used Charlie\u2019s illustration I don\u2019t know how many times. It\u2019s easier to can use him, because he isn\u2019t there. And some of the people, if I use them, they don\u2019t know what (unintelligible word) the man.<\/p>\n

Charlie Touchette:<\/strong>And I\u2013 I don\u2019t mind it at all, because that\u2019s exactly the same<\/em> thing I said to Mickey [Touchette], that night in the parking lot. I made a very<\/em> strong point of that. I remember, now that you mention it.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>Well, I knew you didn\u2019t mind it, and that\u2019s why I use it in the first place and uh, there ought to be a good illustration to them, but other people here I know doubtedly\u2013 undoubtedly that they betrayed me, but I don\u2019t\u2013 Charlie\u2013 Chuck Beikman\u2013 See, I\u2013 I\u2019d forgotten that and looking straight in your ass and I didn\u2019t\u2013 It\u2019s not in your ass, but your face.<\/p>\n

Group:<\/strong>(Laughs)<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong>In our case, it\u2019s hard to tell the difference.<\/p>\n

Group:<\/strong>(Laughs)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>Our ass and our face look somewhat alike, both of them\u2013 all of them. Uh\u2013 I don\u2019t even know what the hell (unintelligible) was, but he<\/em> ought to tell them\u2013 You<\/em> tell them\u2013 I don\u2019t remember. Honest to God, I don\u2019t remember. But you tell them, because Kenny and those who\u2013 who are going through a process of being stolen by me need to know\u2013 I don\u2019t mean now. I don\u2019t mean now.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong>(unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>Tell them (unintelligible). Yeah, yeah, later. But he\u2013 he\u2013 how he betrayed me and then he can uh, know I trust him and put him in this position here. Put him in trust back home. Um, I don\u2019t hold anything against him, and I don\u2019t have any illusion. Most people wouldn\u2019t teach you if they had as little\u2013 if they had as much cynicism<\/em> as I have. I think most of what I do is wasted<\/em>. What the hell\u2019s (unintelligible word) right now? Pay for the goddamned bed? Shit, what\u2019s the use of sleeping? You can sleep much longer when you die. You get a long<\/em> rest when you die, so why don\u2019t you just keep on pushing, ya know? How you\u2013 how many follow what I just said there? Tell\u2013 I can tell on your face you didn\u2019t.<\/p>\n

Group:<\/strong>(Laughs)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>Why work so hard for an eight-hour sleep when you can get a permanent sleep?<\/p>\n

Group:<\/strong>(Quiet chatter)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>(unintelligible) No night\u2013 night\u2013 no nightmares or dreams.<\/p>\n

Group:<\/strong>(Laughs)<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong>(unintelligible) all the times that I will be there forever and I never die. That\u2013 For myself, I know that like, whenever I was in the States, whenever I was, you know, since the beginning, whenever I first come into Peoples Temple, I know, before we moved to California, I think I did listen to your teachings\u2013 fairly reasonable, but I know once I moved to California, I started taking everything for granted and uh, like I did try to avoid a lot of meetings\u2013 good part of them whenever I was there, but then whenever I come here, uh, it\u2019s kind of uh, you\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>You ought to tape him on some of this. Uh\u2013 (unintelligible under microphone movement) \u2013 Uh, you might realize that they didn\u2019t have any meetings, to me it was more appealing. I don\u2019t mean right now, I think we\u2019re kind of tired. You ought to make a tape of that shit about me\u2013 (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong>(unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>About how\u2013 how meetings became more important when you\u2019re away from me.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong>(unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong>Yeah, \u2018cause like\u2013 like whenever ther\u2013 there was just\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>I want it loud and clear, so it can be transferred to another recording.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong>And there was just a few of us that was down here the\u2013 the very first group that was down here, there wasn\u2019t uh\u2013 there was just a few of us, and there wasn\u2019t no really strong focal point of you<\/em> as per se, like it is now. And uh, I know that I s\u2013 we\u2013 we did<\/em> grasp the teachings but it was nothing\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>You realize it is four o\u2019clock in the morning. We\u2019ve been talking all night, so if our voices sound tired, that\u2019s why. Go ahead.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong>And like we\u2013 we had<\/em> grasped the\u2013 the\u2013 some of your teachings, but it was never the strong thing, and I know coming down here and being away from you for the number of months that we were<\/em> away from you for the very first time, and then all of a sudden uh, we learned to appreciate you a little bit than what we did. And then like being away from you from December until now, it is\u2013 and then listen\u2013 being able to listen to you talk and do your teachings, you\u2013 you start to feel more of a\u2013 the thing\u2013 what\u2013 what you say we\u2019re supposed to be or what we\u2019re starting to be.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>I have to go over this again and make it (unintelligible) about why you missed meetings and how much you missed them, \u2018cause it\u2019ll be psychologically safe for advancement. Uh, I\u2013 I can tell you the reasons why you\u2013 part\u2013 part of the reasons is because I love you. You\u2019re very beautiful. Part of the reason is because absence makes the heart grow fonder.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong>Yeah. Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>Out of sight, out of mind, uh, you know, but when you have to live with somebody twenty four hours a day\u2013 uh, live with them every day, they become more of a bore. That\u2019s why people like absentee God. It\u2019s not that they haven\u2019t got a sense of humor\u2013 that\u2019s how they start walking down\u2013 some woman said that uh, (unintelligible word) she uh\u2013 oh, she sent her money in, I\u2019ve forgotten who it was, whose daughter was it, and someone else said. She said, well, I\u2019m sending my money, Mom. Rose Shelton, her daughter. Rose Shelton. No idea what (unintelligible). Hell, I (unintelligible) she still going strong. Said, Mom, by God, it was bad enough having God up there in the sky, and if that son of a bitch walking on earth\u2013 It\u2019s just too much, seeing him over there. It\u2019s too much.<\/p>\n

Marceline<\/strong>: (laughs)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>Well that\u2013 that\u2019s the old superstition, but it was kind of cute. Uh, it just blows my mind ever to see God walking around here, knowing my thoughts and all that shit, said I can\u2019t stand that. \u2018Cause what it is really, is\u2013 if anybody\u2019s around the (unintelligible), and I\u2019m not around, so I (unintelligible). And when I\u2019m dead, I will take a (unintelligible) and that shit be\u2013 then used for the next leader, \u2018cause you\u2019ll have learned a lesson. When you lose something that is good, then you should make it easier for the second leader.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong>Well, hey, thanks. We would\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>You all follow that?<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong>Yes.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong>Yes, sir. If I were Johnson, (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

(Pause)<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong>I think with what\u2013 I think, with what you just said, it\u2019s pretty much, you know, not taking away from the fact of all the protection we have, but it\u2019s more so the uh, of the principle that\u2013 that you teach us.<\/p>\n

(Background conversation \u00a0unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>(unintelligible) Get along with them. Get along with them. Dug out. Couple of them dug out. They would be effective.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong>(unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>I really don\u2019t\u2013 (unintelligible) then they got to walk over there, and he don\u2019t have to sit there and\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong>I\u2019ll go get it.<\/p>\n

Woman 2:<\/strong>I don\u2019t think he is. (unintelligible) Is this going on the tape?<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong>Um, yes.<\/p>\n

Several females laugh<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong>About Mike\u2019s diarrhea, is it going on the tape?<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>As sick as it sounds, don\u2019t forget to turn off the damned tape recorder.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong>(giggling) (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>So I\u2013 I\u2013 I have to lose whatever it is, (unintelligible word), that\u2019s what makes it our safe leader. I\u2013 I\u2019m impressed<\/em> that you say what you\u2013 I mean more to you. What means more to you<\/em> is that I\u2019m not so commonplace<\/em>\u2013<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong>\u2013and that\u2019s really (unintelligible).<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>You\u2019ve been practical about all this. If I had you around<\/em> me all the time, first you\u2019d say, Oh, man, I wish I could be Father. You would have (unintelligible) not that you\u2019d be just like that. You\u2019d be here, (unintelligible) not taking it for granted, (unintelligible) things like that. You\u2019d not be able to (unintelligible)\u2013<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong>I think so.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>Hmm?<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong>I said I think so.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>That\u2019s honest. You wouldn\u2019t have to worry to say that. I think that\u2019s it, that it was right.<\/p>\n

Charlie Touchette:<\/strong>I won\u2019t\u2013 I won\u2019t argue that point at all, but I know what I was in the States, you know, it was the same thing I think of reasons for being in a L.A. parking lot, working on a bus, you know, uh, and uh\u2013 but I know that if I were back up there, I\u2019d sure give it hell for six months. I don\u2019t think that\u2019s exactly what you\u2019re saying, but it\u2019s true, because I would sure like to be up there and be able to participate. Even then\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>Well, tomorrow why don\u2019t you send the tape. We won\u2019t put that part (unintelligible word)\u2013<\/p>\n

(unintelligible background conversation<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong>It\u2019s all maintained.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>Well, we\u2013 we\u2013 we want to retape that. I don\u2019t want them to hear that in six months.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong>Well, nah, I\u2019m going to retape over it\u2013 this whole thing.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>Well, Mike, I think that we all (unintelligible) that you\u2019d go right up there and you\u2019d be enthusiastic and glad to stay\u2013 stay for 12 hours. Our search is not long for you\u2013 that one thing might be comforting to you. But tape (unintelligible) not anything like you used to.<\/p>\n

Charlie:<\/strong>Uh-huh.<\/p>\n

Male 2:<\/strong>No, they didn\u2019t.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>I\u2013 I\u2019ve given up. If a person can\u2019t learn in uh\u2013 in all the time I\u2019ve been preaching, you might as well reduce it to half. I would say at least certainly, it could be cut in half.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong>One offering.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>One offering. \u2018Cause that\u2019d kill me and I\u2019d (unintelligible) death to raise money over here and die. Offering\u2019s a terrible (unintelligible), so I had to take one offering, and we didn\u2019t have a final march\u2013 not at all. Now if they don\u2019t have a march, I take a quickie. My offerings last about three minutes. Because uh\u2013 I couldn\u2019t take\u2013 take it. It wasn\u2019t that I minded the pain, I was having heart trouble. (Pause) Uh, and if I die, a lot of people that moment would say, oh, (short laugh) he\u2019s not God any more. He wasn\u2019t God. It\u2019s like Marceline\u2013 Marceline\u2019s had bad heart trouble, I\u2019ve kept her alive years. But if she were to die, if she were to die, if Marceline were to die, some of the people would deny you were God right now. I said you had bad heart trouble for years, and I\u2019ve kept you alive. And uh\u2013 but if she were to die, all those years I\u2019ve kept her alive would not make any difference to some people. Now the fact that when she couldn\u2019t walk, that wouldn\u2019t have made any difference either<\/em>. But I healed her. You follow\u2013 if you follow me.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>The trouble is, you\u2019ve got to make the effort to follow me, \u2018cause I\u2019m getting so unmo\u2013 I\u2019m so unmotivated I won\u2019t even make\u2013 I wouldn\u2019t even push the foll\u2013 I used to jump on people. (unintelligible word) I won\u2019t do it no more, you\u2019re going to have to jump on me, I ain\u2019t going to do it. I figure, by God, if you don\u2019t want honesty, that\u2019s your problem, but I\u2013 I can\u2019t kill myself trying to shove honesty down someone\u2019s throat. Like trying to get a horse to water. You can get him there, but you can\u2019t make him drink. And some of you people, I don\u2019t think I can get you to wake up. And you have to work on yourself or your neighbor\u2019s going to have to work on you, but I<\/em> am not going to fight that battle any more. You guys scream out there, \u201cWake up, goddamnit!\u201d I don\u2019t do that to you anymore. I don\u2019t raise my voice very much anymore. If you haven\u2019t noticed that\u2013 a lot of that is absen\u2013 absent. Raise voices? There\u2019s good and there\u2019s bad. \u2018Cause I\u2019m totally unmotivated. Totally responsible, but totally unmotivated. I\u2019m going to stand my post till I die.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong>I\u2019m glad.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>I do all I can to stand there. (unintelligible)<\/p>\n

(male and female together) Uh-hmm.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>I\u2013 I\u2013 I\u2019m going to stand as long as I can. I try to take vitamins, I try to drink carefully. I wanted some more caffeine, but I thought I had too much for the heart (unintelligible word), so I didn\u2019t take the coffee when it was offered to me. And I\u2013 I\u2019m not careless with it. Try to keep my weight down when I get bigger than a goddamned barrel. I do all the things I can to think<\/em> about health. But I\u2019m unmotivated. Surely not motivated enough to say wake up. Let me. I said wake up in press conference several times, but uh, it\u2019s not been (unintelligible word). I\u2019m dead already. That\u2019s the beautiful part, I have died. I\u2019m crucified. That\u2019s a (unintelligible word) to say. You know about being dead already. You don\u2019t fight so hard. Before I was dead, I was crying out, \u201cDon\u2019t let me die! Give me some hope! Give me some hope!\u201d So I\u2019d scream out, \u201cWake up<\/em>!\u201d Well, I\u2019m dead now. Uh, but I lay my body down in the Washington on the front steps or I lay it in a\u2013 an ammunition dump, or I lay it somewhere. Notice I didn\u2019t say my enemies, \u2018cause I\u2019m\u2013 I\u2013 I\u2019m going above self, I don\u2019t lay my body down\u2013 you\u2019re going to have to (unintelligible). I talk like I (unintelligible) but I wouldn\u2019t waste my fucking time getting it, \u2018cause I\u2019ve got bigger\u2013 bigger fish to fry. I wouldn\u2019t go across the street to get [Jim] Cobb. I can go across the street to visit\u2013 same\u2013 same difference. I could go get [Gerald] Ford. Ain\u2019t no fucking little nobody, nothing like Cobb. You take care of Cobb and I\u2019ll get Ford. You get what I\u2019m saying.<\/p>\n

Group:<\/strong>Assents<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>And then they\u2019ll take care of that. If you\u2019re approaching\u2013 you\u2019re approach to a general, you get that general to get Cobb. You see\u2013 You hear what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

Male 1:<\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n

Male 2:<\/strong>Uh-hmm.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>They\u2019ll be some of you be left and uh, get close enough to the generals, but you\u2019ll get Cobb. If Cobb don\u2019t get got (unintelligible) shit. You\u2019ll die. Everybody dies. I ought\u2013 We oughta wish him a long life\u2013<\/p>\n

Male 2:<\/strong>Yeah, agony.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>\u2018Cause (unintelligible) in a damn nursing home and then uh, how many more\u2013 how many more hours you live\u2013 What was that? (Stumbles over words) One thing you said tonight, and I didn\u2019t say so (unintelligible).<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong>Uh, how long do you think I can last (unintelligible).<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>Oh, that was it. Don\u2019t call me if they die. Been married for fifty years. Don\u2019t call\u2013 if they die and you\u2013 don\u2019t wake me up.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong>(unintelligible)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>That blows my fucking mind, that just blows my mind. People like mom and dad been married for years, and she\u2019d say, don\u2019t call me. If they die\u2013<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong>Don\u2019t\u2013 don\u2019t wake me up.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>And they tell her that all the time. She\u2019s in charge of all the hospitals and nursing homes, and they tell her that all<\/em> of the goddamned time. She\u2019ll read it on their charts too, they will tell her. She\u2019s reading it there, \u2018cause she has to study everyone\u2019s charts and that\u2019s (unintelligible) but can you imagine having\u2013 anybody having the damned nerve?<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong>I wanted to tell you something about that\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>But why don\u2019t we get the scrubs? I want to\u2013 you have to go across that\u2013 I\u2019m the teacher here (unintelligible). You\u2013 You got\u2013 you got to\u2013 It\u2019s very difficult to imagine what I\u2019m saying, because you can apply that to everybody but yourself. Everybody thinks everybody else is going to die, but you don\u2019t think you\u2019re<\/em> dying. If you look in the goddammed mirror, you know you\u2019re dying<\/em>.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong>I just wanted to be\u2013 (unintelligible).<\/p>\n

Woman 2:<\/strong>(laughing)<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>For most people\u2013 You going to die? She\u2019s going to die? You\u2019re going to die too.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong>I hope so.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>Well, you do, and that\u2019s just honest socialism. But some people don\u2019t. They don\u2019t ever identify there. They become (unintelligible word). They never identify with dying. They think always going to get better for them. You can\u2019t trust a fucker like that, \u2018cause he\u2019ll fuck up the revolution, and (unintelligible) look bad.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong>Uh-hmm.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>A little trouble come, and he\u2019s gone<\/em>. Like Arnold. Narcissism. Number one\u2013 always knew he was that way, that\u2019s why I wouldn\u2019t trust him when certain responsible things that\u2013 one\u2013 his own dad [Jack Beam] wanted to get him. Said I ain\u2019t gone do it, \u2018cause I didn\u2019t trust him. Little bit of trouble\u2019s hitting America, fucker wants to hide. Somebody wants to die, he\u2019s\u2013 he\u2019s niggerized. You don\u2019t worry about that son of a bitch. He ain\u2019t going to run. Marvin Johnson wants to save his ass when people close to you? Not so.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong>He\u2019s the first ones to say, \u201clet\u2019s go get them\u201d.<\/p>\n

Several voices:<\/strong>(generally unintelligible conversation saying Jim Cobb was a yellow belly, the loudest voice in\u00a0 the room)<\/p>\n

Male 2:<\/strong>Loudest one in the meeting.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>You can\u2019t fi\u2013 uh, you can\u2019t believe anything you hear, it\u2019s actions that speak. People can just put on the biggest damn show you ever did see in your life. And that\u2019s the good part, they\u2019ve earned a good lesson, to be (unintelligible word). But uh, now I\u2019m\u2013 I\u2019m finished with the\u2013 Identify with that. If that\u2013 Marceline sees that a thousand times. \u2018Cause people who are rich, people whose husbands have made them good money, people whose wives have given them a big fortune, but no more goddamned love out there in capitalism, and even some of them that are supposed to be socialist, as you\u2019ve seen, not to name any names, but saying, don\u2019t wake me up if he dies at three o\u2019clock in the morning. Wait until nine o\u2019clock. That\u2019s shit.<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong>I remember one\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>That\u2019s life.<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong>One (unintelligible)\u2013 I went in and set with the person, and when they died, she said (unintelligible word) wanted to be alone, and the family said, don\u2019t wait.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong>Isn\u2019t that terrible?<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong>So what I wanted to say to you is that uh, when I go into these hospitals, it\u2019s ironic, and I give credit to uh, my father [Walter Baldwin]. Actually, I was in about ten percent of the records. And I\u2019ll go into the hospital when they have a hundred patients, and I\u2019ll pick out every problem chart they\u2019ve got. Just at random<\/em>. And they\u2019ll\u2013 look\u2013 I\u2019ve (unintelligible). I\u2019ve gone in and found lab reports, or\u2013 or doctor\u2019s orders that were written, even though they were\u2013 uh, what is (unintelligible) one of the hospitals in Eureka, where they had 99 patients, and I picked out each heart, where a doctor uh, order for a uh, consultation by a neurologist was written three weeks ago, and not followed through. But\u2013 but\u2013 but what I was saying\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>Rather die on a table\u2013<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong>\u2013 is this random pick<\/em> is phenomenal. And I know it because of him.<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/strong>That\u2019s true. She doesn\u2019t have the time to go through all<\/em> of them, so she has to pick them at random just to\u2013 as a check.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>(unintelligible), because the state don\u2019t care that much. They put so much on her, she has to take\u2013 so she has to use my mind, my supernatural or paranormal\u2013 she has to focus on me, think on me, so she can take the right chart to find everything that they\u2019re neglecting.<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong>\u2013to find the problem. But if I go into a\u2013 a place (unintelligible)\u2013 if I see it, someone (unintelligible). That\u2019s<\/em> no problem, \u2018cause I\u2019ll find out what their names are, and I\u2019ll look at every record.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>But all the white, she can\u2019t take, and all the white getting most the same damn thing, but there\u2019s just something worse than others, like an operation that can save them from pain (unintelligible) uh, it\u2019s a medication can relieve their pain. And she has had to call on me or to let me guide her, and she said, she\u2019ll find the very charts and that\u2019s phenomenal. Again we want to do that we\u2019d get ourselves off into metaphysics, and that\u2019s counter-revolutionary. You dwell too much in (claps hands once) metaphysics, you\u2019re a counter-revolutionary. You should (claps hands once) call on that name for himself (unintelligible word). If you\u2019re out there dying, if you want to save your own ass, don\u2019t call, if you\u2019re a true socialist. But if you know (claps hands once) I need to write D.C. or attract a call. You get what I\u2019m saying? I\u2019d<\/em> want you to live, and I beg you<\/em> for yourself to call, uh, if you want to live. But if you wanted to die, I\u2013 I love you so much, I don\u2019t want you to let you die. If you follow me. But that\u2019s uh\u2013 that\u2013 some people\u2013 you can\u2019t get it unless your conscience is dead. I don\u2019t want to go to there, \u2018cause I\u2019m either too enlightened or (unintelligible) won\u2019t call and I\u2019ll have to get somebody else to driving me too.<\/p>\n

Group:<\/strong>(Laughs)<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong>It\u2019s the times that they\u2013 it happened otherwise you going to get (unintelligible).<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong>(unintelligible) place to live, you owe us.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong>Right.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>You owe it to socialism to call on me. That\u2019s the whole thing. But don\u2019t be calling on me, \u2018cause you want to save your ass.<\/p>\n

Background conversation unintelligible<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/strong>Should be after all means are exhausted.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>I project and I don\u2019t know enough about paranormal uh, and all the intricacies. I know a lot about paranormal\u2013 I want to be fair and corrected on that, but I don\u2019t all how I do it but I meditate about you. And faces come before me dozens and dozens of times. I could<\/em> say hundreds of times, but I (unintelligible).<\/p>\n

Prokes:<\/strong>Hmm, no doubt.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>So, uh, but I uh\u2013 I know dozens and dozens of people say, plus on top of that I assure myself that those (unintelligible) are so damned hard working that they\u2019re afraid they\u2019re going to miss something. (unintelligible phrase). You realize it\u2019s nothing but a miracle that in a\u2013 in a jungle, where you didn\u2019t know a fucking thing about a jungle, that all kinds of a\u2013 acts of nature that can happen, all kinds of uh, animals that can do you in or snakes, all kinds of accidents and hazards, \u2018cause you don\u2019t know what you\u2019re doing. You people. I don\u2019t mean that though (unintelligible) don\u2019t take that wrong, and you know a hell of a lot (unintelligible word), but didn\u2019t when you started. The fact that you have not been killed is\u2013 you have in me and I know that. But that puts a weight on me, that I wished I never existed, \u2018cause I\u2019m afraid I\u2019ll miss it sometimes. I\u2019m bound to miss it sometimes. That\u2019s why you need to be careful. (unintelligible word) said the other night to Ar\u2013 uh, to uh, Archie [Ijames], who was driving and he was driving real fast. And I said, Archie, you\u2019re been me, you\u2019re testing me, I said, don\u2019t do that. Then if you going to be driving rapidly or carelessly, you\u2019re testing me. Don\u2019t do that. Uh, \u2018cause it\u2013 I\u2019ve got enough tests. Enough from these people (unintelligible) and from about you (unintelligible) I can tell.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong>Hmm-hmm.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>Don\u2019t go ripping through the jungle without your proper boots. Uh\u2013 Take every precaution. Okay? Don\u2019t be messing with (unintelligible) industrial equipment without all the safety uh, measures taken you could possibly (unintelligible). Don\u2019t be fooling around in the kitchen with uh, gases or hot liquids without being careful. That\u2019s unfair to Father. It\u2019s unfair to socialist.<\/p>\n

Woman:<\/strong>That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong>If you are (unintelligible)\u2013 if it\u2019s one of those days when you feel depressed, that\u2019s when you\u2019re very<\/em> careful. The day\u2013 on the days that I go out on the road and I have a temptation to get (unintelligible) to get over the line when I see a semi coming, that\u2019s<\/em> when I am very<\/em> careful.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>That\u2019s why I\u2019m so very careful not to drive. You notice that Father does very little driving (unintelligible) to get on buses. (unintelligible) I get a lot of work. Physical work and I do mental work and I do very little driving if I can avoid it because I\u2019m too suicidal. And a car is a very good way to be dead.<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong>Some days we\u2019re more alert than others too, like tomorrow after you\u2019re up this late, I would hope that none of you will be doing anything that\u2019s too dangerous (unintelligible).<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>I\u2013 I would recommend not. I recommend you use a slower pace while I\u2019m (unintelligible) because you\u2019ve got to be sharp when you (unintelligible).<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong>(unintelligible) machinery and that kind of thing.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>\u2018Cause I would just be\u2013 they say why don\u2019t you have (unintelligible)\u2013 anything you can think would fix me up. If the brother\u2019s lost his arm. I love you and try to talk it up to you, but I\u2019m trying to save you from hurting yourself and hurting these people uh, uh, I just\u2013 \u00a0I can\u2019t take much more pain. I have to see that much pain is that uh, there ain\u2019t no pain to kill. If you give me these pain pills, that\u2019s giving me relief. So, I don\u2019t need no (unintelligible word) from that standpoint, \u2018cause I\u2013 I worry about you so, particularly if you\u2019re crippled with God.<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong>There\u2019s one thing I\u2019m going to have to do tomorrow and that\u2019s get that medication sorted out, and I\u2019m going to have be somewhat alert, or I\u2019ll worry about you taking the wrong things for the wrong thing.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>Well, you ought to go on.<\/p>\n

Male:<\/strong>You should go.<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong>So I think I should get some rest, \u2018cause tomorrow\u2019s my last day I can get that organized.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>How about finishing uh, yours to do\u2013 you\u2019ve got\u2013 you had to lay all that foundation for socialism (unintelligible).<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong>Okay.<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>You know more about it and you don\u2019t need to know this.<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong>I have to remember what those medications\u2013<\/p>\n

Jones:<\/strong>There\u2019re contradictions that can be resolved (unintelligible). If you can call him by radio, then we can make contact tomorrow because it\u2019s going on\u2013<\/p>\n

Marceline:<\/strong>(unintelligible)<\/p>\n

End of tape<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

(Editor\u2019s note:\u00a0The tape was transcribed by Vicki Perry. The editors gratefully acknowledge her invaluable assistance. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.) To return to the Tape Index, click here. To read the Tape Summary, click here. Listen to MP3 (Pt. 1,\u00a0Pt. 2). Jones:\u00a0\u2013and it\u2019s oh\u2013 Goddamn it\u2013 I\u2019m just\u2013 […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"parent":27291,"menu_order":359,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-85624","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/85624","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=85624"}],"version-history":[{"count":8,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/85624\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":131734,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/85624\/revisions\/131734"}],"up":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/27291"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/jonestown.sdsu.edu\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=85624"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}