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| Transcripts FCC #9 |
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| Summary Courtesy of Fielding McGehee III |
| Jonestown Audiotape Primary Project Tape Number FCC 9 FCC Listing 77R71/ 12Sept77/Tape 2 Start 0356 GMT – 0455 GMT (Side 2) Start 0455 GMT Date: 12 Sept 77 Names: Coded: (* = People with these names used the radio room, so may not be code) Angela Ann (could be Ann Moore) *Ben (could be Ben Bowers) Dr. Berlitz Ed/Eddy/Teddy (likely all one person, could be different) Genevieve/Guinevere Geneva Hank (almost certainly Charles Garry) Irene Jeremy *Laura (could be Laura Johnston) Lucinda *Karen (Could be Karen Layton) Marvin Mildred (speaks) Oscar (likely Tim Stoen) *Paula (almost certainly Paula Adams) Richard Sutton (almost certainly Forbes Burnham) Teresa (probably Terri Buford) Thomas Individuals: Deborah Layton Blakey (speaks) Jim Jones (speaks) Marceline Jones (speaks) Grace Stoen (by reference) Tim Stoen (by reference) John Victor Stoen (by reference) Charles Garry (Temple attorney) Others: Ptolemy Reid, Deputy Prime Minister of Guyana (by reference) Guyana Chief Justice of the Supreme Court (by reference) Martin Luther King, Jr. Stonewall Jackson, Confederate general in Civil War Summary: This is an audio recording made by – or provided by - an unknown private party to the Federal Communications Commission. It was used as part of the agency’s investigation of Peoples Temple amateur radio transmissions to determine whether the Temple was violating its licenses by conducting business or engaging in other prohibited activities. The conversation takes place between Temple ham radio operators in San Francisco and in Jonestown, Guyana, although Jim Jones speaks extensively as well – espeically during the second half – as does his wife, Marceline. Most of the conversation is hard to hear because the voices are taken from the airwaves, and some are very faint. In addition, much of the conversation is in code. Yet the messages being exchanged are clear to participants, with sentences being repeated to assure proper transmission, and some remarks extensively parsed and rewritten. Nevertheless, the sense of urgency – at times seeming to slip into panic – is palpable. The tape was made during what was known in Jonestown as the seven-day siege in September 1977, a period when the forces of the governments – Guyanese and American – as well as relatives and other “conspirators” seemed to be aligned against them. Jones speaks on several occasions of going without sleep for much of the period, and while that may have been a common refrain, his description of bullets “whizzing through the crowd and putting a hole through my wall, missing me by inches,” as well as reports of an airplane flying overhead, are unique to this time period (although it was recalled to the community in many meetings to come). The most urgent part of the conversation is about Tim Stoen, not only his apparent defection, but the possibility that he has joined the Concerned Relatives in their fight against the Temple. The leadership – including Jim Jones – expresses both incredulity and anxiety. Jones is “somewhat concerned about the loss of years of work,” but also wonders “how serious the problem is” and – most important – “if the problem is a localized problem or one that will follow them there,” presumably to Guyana. What papers did Stoen have when he left, they wonder, what records did he take with him when he left? The three-way conversation between San Francisco, Georgetown and Jonestown then focuses on a statement – which each of them must have “word for word” – on how to bring Stoen back in. “If he is sincere, why not come out to the kids and talk?” a woman reads, before the wording is revised – however slightly, but emphatically – to: “If he is sincere, the children feel that he should go to see them.” Temple attorney Charles Garry is also aghast and, according to one of the speakers on the radio, “finds it incredible that there’s been a complete turnabout from being in favor to against.” Garry also pledges to help on “the other thing” – presumably the child custody case over John Victor Stoen – which has just added a new, disconcerting complication. Moreover, Jones’ legal problems have followed him to his South American refuge. Beyond the custody of the Stoen child – a discussion which recurs throughout – there is an order out for his arrest. According to Jones, it is illegal, it is unconstitutional, and it is unenforceable, but it still concerns him. The result is, he says, he cannot return to the States, and there is even some feeling he can no longer go to Guyana’s capital city of Georgetown. Moreover, if he’s a prisoner in his own community, others – notably John Victor Stoen – are prisoners as well. In an extended conversation about it with his wife Marceline, he complains of conflicting signals from the courts. “We asked for just simple assurance that none would be … extradited on some false charge,” he says. “And we could not get such an assurance. Now you tell me there’s such an assurance.” Even though Marceline tells him his lawyers have said there is no possibility of extradition, Jones isn’t mollified. “You people are getting one bit of information. I’m getting another. And I can only tell you that many others here heard it besides me.” The final contribution to the tension is that the Temple’s main supporters in the Guyana government – including Prime Minister Forbes Burnham himself – are out of the country, and the “elements” within Guyana’s power structure which disapprove of Jonestown are in control. While the first half of the tape features the voices of several of Jones’ most trusted lieutenants of the period – Debby Layton Blakey and Paula Adams among them – the Temple leader himself steers most of the conversation of the second half. He begins speaking in code, but as he becomes more agitated – or conversely, more comfortable during his conversation with Marceline – he increasingly slips into normal speech patterns, to the extent that Marceline cautions him about expressing some of his views on such a public medium as the ham radio, which, after all, could be recorded by their enemies. Jones’ laments are familiar: the reason he has not slept in so long is that he is working night and day to protect the community. All he is doing is looking for peace, searching for a refuge for his people – comparing them to “the Jews [who] sailed all around the world, and no people wanted them anywhere” – and wondering aloud why the conspiracy won’t just leave them alone. His references to alternatives to life in Jonestown begin in an oblique fashion: “I’m very realistic, and I will stay alive as long as I possibly can, trying to keep people alive, but my body will not agree with my mind,” he says. A moment later, he becomes more direct. “I got that strategy and support,” he says in reply to a suggestion. “I don’t make strategies on matters of principle, on life and death. I don’t do that.” There is momentary consideration of emigrating to another country, an idea which includes selling the physical facility of Jonestown to someone else – “get some of our funds so that we can develop some other area where we can have peace” – but eventually Jones returns to his original course. “I have to exercise some judgment here. It’s a democracy, but I’ve got to exercise some judgment… But finally, the weight’s on my shoulders and I’ve got to exercise some very, very strong judgment.” Finally, near the end of the tape when he speaks with Marceline, he invokes Martin Luther King in his defiance. “[There is] a remote possibility that they might have to give their lives when we were under attack here,” he says. “We naturally couldn’t just roll over and play dead… if they came for one, they would have to come for all.” Similarly, Jones becomes less guarded – when, for example, he speaks of the wonders of Jonestown – as though he is speaking to a wider audience. He describes himself as going through the “roughest” part of his life, and as becoming “jumpy” as a result of the pressure he’s under. He will do anything for the community – except violence, “I will not do violence, I will not be involved in violence” – and has even offered himself up to some unnamed entity if it will bring peace. “But the people won’t have it this way. So we’ve got only one option.” (At this point, it is the second time in two exchanges that Jones has spoken of the “option,” and at least one person in a Temple radio room is getting nervous about the frankness of the conversation. “I copied some,” she says. “I copied enough so you don’t have to repeat it.”) The conversation between Jones and Marceline lasts for the final quarter of the tape. She alternately tries to draw Jones out to determine what his concerns are, and warns him about being too specific. Similarly, she tries to calm him in his agitation, she warns him that there may be more problems coming, and she expresses her own helplessness with the situation. “I’m a little bit at a loss as to what to do still,” she says early in the conversation, and at other times, her tone of voice makes the same statement. But most of the time, she tries to offer reassurance that everything will work out. Jones complains that he’s being harassed, that he’s in danger of being arrested even though he’s “doing what my counselors told me to do,” that he suspects provocateurs at work within Jonestown, in short, that “very strange things … have gone on here.” Marceline replies that the U.S. Embassy has told her that he shouldn’t worry. “[Y]our project was in no jeopardy,” she says, “there’s no extradition … [and] the project was not in jeopardy.” In one of the tape’s final sets of exchanges, Jones asks his wife for a stronger expression of support. “I think you have a feeling, sometimes, for what I am getting from Hank [Charles Garry] and others, that I tend to overreact,” he says, and when she asks him to repeat what he just said, he replies, “there’s some feeling that there might be overreacting, that we’re overreacting.” Three times she tries to assuage his fears, and each time – as did a female radio operator earlier in the tape – she herself becomes more agitated about what they’re revealing. “Negative, negative, negative!” she cries emphatically. “I am saying that I do not feel you’re overreacting, only that I think… that you’re using a public medium for airing things that should not be aired.” The tape ends with the uncertainty that has plagued the entire conversation. “[T]here’s no real solution to this situation,” Jones says. “[S]omebody’s gonna have to get consistent with the information they’ve given me. I did what I was told by the counselors [and they] said it would be all right. Nothing could happen.” This tape was transcribed by Josef Dieckman, and reviewed and summarized by Fielding M. McGehee III. |
| The following is a transcription of an audio recording made by, or supplied to, the Federal Communications Commission, dated 09/12/1977 and labeled Tape 9, of amateur radio transmissions between what is believed to be Jonestown, Guyana and a stateside affiliate. For record keeping purposes the tape is referred to as FCC #9. Side One Marceline: [fading in] –this band [unintelligible, pause] Uh, everything’s okay, though. Jones: Everything’s what? Marceline: I mean, you’re not having any harassment right now. Jones: Uh, I can’t c– will you, uh, speak a little louder? Marceline: I said you’re not having any harassment right now. Jones: No, not right now. [tape edit] [much noise and static heard] Female 1: WB6MID slant 8R3, do you copy? Over. [no response or inaudible] Female 1: 8R3, do you copy? [no response or inaudible] Female 1: Testing, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, over. [no response or inaudible] Female 1: Do you cop– [no response or inaudible, off frequency chatter heard, static and shortwave radio broadcast] [very long pause, radio gets back on frequency and side chatter becomes understandable at approximately position 152 on the tape counter] Male 1: [very deliberate] How long ago did he call back? Over. [no response or inaudible] Male 1: I copied the essence of it. Stand by. He– 8R3, he called at 11:15– [female voice heard in background feeding lines to Male 1] –he stayed on for 45 minutes, and was– seemed to be friendly, over. Female 2: [unintelligible] What all did he say, what all did he say [unintelligible word] Male 1: Oh– [cut off, unintelligible word] 8R1, do you copy? Female 2: [faint] Roger, roger, roger. Male 1: [very deliberate] What did he say that was significant? Do you copy? Female 2: [loud static makes her response partially unintelligible] children away from the family, [too weak, unintelligible] Uh, do you copy so far? Male 1: Roger. And moving the children away from the family, is that a roger? Female 2: [too weak, unintelligible] He is not quite sure. [unintelligible sentence] over. Male 1: Roger. He said that he is not sure. He is not sure, over. Male 2: Not sure what? Female 2: [too weak, unintelligible string] about himself. He is not sure about himself [unintelligible conclusion] Male 1: Roger. He is not sure about himself. He is not sure about himself, over. Female 2: [unintelligible string] family, do you copy? Male 1: Roger– moving away from the family. Over. Female 2: [too weak, unintelligible] It’s their choice. Over. Male 1: Uh, negative copy on that, over. Female 2: [weak, unintelligible string] It’s their choice. [unintelligible string] Male 1: Roger, roger. He would let the children make their choice, over. Female 2: Roger. [weak, unintelligible string] –manipulated. Does not– does not [unintelligible phrase] manipulated. Do you copy? Male 1: Roger, roger. He does not want to be manipulated, over. Female 2: [weak, unintelligible string] Male 1: Roger ro– jah– [laughs] Roger, roger. You explained a lot about the conspiracy to him, over. Female 2: [weak, unintelligible string] Male 1: Something– [Interrupted by a female in the background who says: [sounds like, “about how he (unintelligible word) going to the point of (unintelligible word)”] –Repeat the first part. Um, I heard the last part you said, how it fits in. But I did not copy the first part, over. Female 2: [weak, unintelligible string] –called and found out what he did. [unintelligible string] Male 1: Roger. Try shorter next time. You said that before you knew about the charter, he found about it and called you about it. Is that correct? Female 2: Roger. Male 1: That’s what I got, I know correctly. Repeat after that, please. [pause] In, in shorter sentences so I can be more accurate, please. Female 2: [weak, unintelligible string] Male 1: I [mumbles, interrupted by a female speaking in the background who says: “(unintelligible) charter incident may be part of (unintelligible)–“] She said the charter incident may be part of the conspiracy, over. Female 2: Roger. Male 1: Roger, right. Roger, right. Female 2: [weak] He told me about a will, about a will. [unintelligible] to do with a plumber’s wife– [unintelligible] with a plumber’s wife, over. Male 1: Roger, roger. He told you about a will to do with the plumber’s wife. Please stand by, 8R1. Hold on for just a second. Male 2: Ah, [unintelligible] what was the first few things he said that, how’d he start out the conversation [unintelligible] Did he– did he call– uh, Paula? Male 1: Roger. 8R1, do you copy me? [no response or inaudible] Male 1: Did he call you? Did he call you, and what was the first part of the conversation? Over. Female 2: [weak, unintelligible string] Male 1: Roger. He did not– he emphasized that he did not want to be manipulated– [female speaking to Male 1 can be heard in the background] –um, oh– okay. Did he call you? Did he call you? Over. Female 2: Roger, roger, roger, roger. Male 1: Roger, roger. Hold on a sec. Male 2: Was there anything particular that he stressed? Male 1: I thin– besides that he did not want to be manipulated, over? Male 2: Roger. Male 1: Roger. 8R1, is there anything else that he stressed, be– besides what you have mentioned? Over. Female 2: [weak, long unintelligible string] showed any emotion was when– was when– [unintelligible]Do you copy? Male 1: Roger, roger, roger. The only time that he showed any emotion was when they talked about Genevieve, and he thought that they were using her, over. Male 2: Roger. [unintelligible] Male 1: Yes, roger, roger. Male 2: [unintelligible] stand by [unintelligible] Male 1: Roger. Stand by, 8R1. Hold on. Female 2: [weak, unintelligible string], over. Male 1: Roger, roger. Stand by a moment. Stand by. [no response or inaudible] [long pause] Male 2: Uh– wh– wh– where is it, uh, at now with him? Where is it at now with him? Male 1: Roger. 8R1, where is it at now with him? Where is it at now with him? Do you copy? Female 2: [weak, unintelligible string] Male 1: Roger. What do you expect 8R3 to do, over? [female in background, correcting speaker, “what does he expect (unintelligible) “] –Oh, excuse me, what do– I’m sorry. What does he expect us to do, over? Female 2: [weak, unintelligible string] –then go back– then go back– to [static crash] –then to go back where you are. [unintelligible string] Male 1: Roger. [female heard chattering in background] What he said is he wants the children to go in and he– we will come back where I am at. He said he would work with Hank– here. [female in background says something that sounds like, “–keep going– ] Over. Male 2: Uh– [weak, unintelligible] Male 1: Roger, roger. That’s fro– from what she said before that, you know, it’s the children’s choi– [un– keys] Uh, that’s the impression I have too, all– I mean that’s, that’s– le– ah, you want me to check with 8R1 to be sure? Male 2: [unintelligible] uh, ask her if there’s anything else she thinks we should know about the conversation. Male 1: [female heard chattering in background] Roger. 8R1, um, te– go ahead with more of the conversation, over. Female 2: [weak, long unintelligible string] –we are considering. Tomorrow, tomorrow we are going to go over that, we are going over that– [unintelligible] a little optimism, a little optimism in [unintelligible] a little optimism in [unintelligible] Do you copy? Male 1: Roger, that was way, way too long. I will try to co– relay as best I can. All right– um, [coughs] eh, you– you’re– uh, [female in background reads back information to Male 1] you talked, you talked to him all, all, all about the move, a– uh, about to someplace, he– he seemed very optimistic, and she’s going to talk to him about it tomorrow. 8R1, I copy you fine. You can go ahead and say it once, but please shorter. Female 2: All right, negative, negative. [weak, unintelligible string] Male 1: Roger. [female chattering in the background] She, he ex– uh, correction on last statement. Uh, he seems optimistic, not very optimistic. He see– he just kind of seems optimist– just seems optimistic [laughs] over. Female 2: [weak, long unintelligible string] – over. [Pause] Debby Layton: 8R1, can you please talk in shorter sentences, one sentence at a time, and then we can relay properly. Female 2: [static crash] Roger, roger. [unintelligible string] he is not optimistic. Layton: Roger. Uh, 8R3, he is not optimistic– but he– but he may seem some aspect of optimism and she feels, perhaps– [suppresses a giggle, pause] – she could talk with him– [no response or inaudible] Male 2: [unintelligible] mention to him uh, anything about Sutton? Did she mention to him anything about Sutton? Layton: Did– Uh, 8R1, did you mention to him anything about Sutton, over? [no response or inaudible] Layton: He w– Roger. He was told earlier about Sutton. He spoke to Irene about Sutton– uh, over. [no response or inaudible] Layton: 8R1, uh, nothing about a visit, is that right? Nothing about a visit? Over. [no response or inaudible] Layton: Roger, roger. [frequency drifts as listener bumps the VFO dial] Uh– they were told uh– uh– to say that– Sutton would be, uh, coming to see about it, uh, and that was it. Over. [no response or inaudible] Layton: Uh– uh, 8R1, coming here, coming where? Female 2: [weak, unintelligible] going to that place. They were going to call Sutton [unintelligible string], over. Layton: Um, roger. He was– Uh, about going to that place– about going to the place and he was told to call Sutton and then verify, over. Male 2: Roger. [weak, unintelligible string], accomplish the same thing, is that right? Layton: Uh, 8R1, is it just a different strategy to accomplish the same thing? Over. Female 2: [weak, unintelligible string] trying to accomplish, over. Layton: Um, sh– uh, she has not been in, uh, all day, and she does not know what uh, we are trying to accomplish, over. Male 2: [weak, unintelligible] – [sounds like, “is that a roger?”] Layton: Okay 8R1, is this what he sees? Is this what he sees. Is this uh– his [male heard in background, unintelligible] way of uh, of– of a different strategy, over. Male 2: To accomplish the same thing. Layton: Yeah, to ah– 8R1, to accomplish the same thing. Uh, is this his strategy to accomplish the same thing, over. [no response or inaudible] Male 2: [weak] Okay, uh, [weak, unintelligible string] you know, uh– like a ploy– [weak, unintelligible string] Layton: 8R1, did you copy that? Female 2: [weak, unintelligible] –Negative. Layton: [over the top of unintelligible Female 2] Okay, um– di– did y– are you gu– are you copying 8R3, 8R1? [no response or inaudible] Layton: 8R3, did you copy? She said she heard you and it was a roger, over. Male 2: [weak, unintelligible] Layton: Did you copy that, 8R1? Female 2: [weak, unintelligible] Layton: Did you copy that, R– 8R3? Male 2: [weak] Negative. Layton: Okay, she said that uh, she does not think that she can change his mind, over. [no response or inaudible] Layton: Uh, 8R1, did you see that his tone changed with the information that you gave him, over? Female 2: [weak, unintelligible] – over the telephone [weak, unintelligible] Layton: Uh, sh– uh, he made a statement, uh, uh, in case– over the telephone, in case anybody was listening– uh, and her first, and the first question was somewhat, over. Female 2: [weak, unintelligible] Layton: Uh, his comment was that we were one– we were one in having family quarrels, but not divided, over. Male 2: [weak, unintelligible] Layton: Roger, that is what she said. Female 2: [weak, unintelligible] Layton: Uh, that was– they had asked, she had explained the conspiracy in its depth, over. Male 2: Roger, roger. [pause] Female 1 : Can I cut in with a couple of uh, points over? Male 2: Roger. Female 1: The first is when uh, Sutton talked to um, Marvin, and we said um, “immediate”, he thought “immediate” was not quite as immediate as tomorrow morning, and uh, the first he can get down there is the weekend, do you copy? Male 2: Uh, roger, roger. Female 1: So, um, he’s gonna hit the telephones and uh, do as much as he can that way and try to have it arranged and we’ll be working through the same people as uh, once before, do you copy? Male 2: What was the last thing you said– last part? Female 1: We will work through the same people that we worked through before, but he won’t be able to make it before the weekend, over. Male 2: Uh, roger. So when is he gonna uh, call? Female 1: Um– he says he’s calling first thing in the morning, first thing in the morning an– over. Male 2: Okay, uh– roger. Anything else? [pause] Female 2: Mildred, do you copy me? Female 1: Roger, roger, roger. Female 2: Uh, you know uh, our form for our paralegal, ones that we have authori– authorization? Female 1: Roger, roger. In the capital, over. Female 2: Are they specifically uh– [unintelligible] the location specifically named, or are they just [unintelligible] whatever one is? Female 1: I don’t know um– Everything I have on that is uh, not– not here and uh– 8R1 or 8– you would have the uh, information on that. I don’t have it at hand, over. Female 2: No one [unintelligible] Female 1: I can tell you in about 45 minutes, over. Female 2: Can somebody besides you go? Female 1: Uh– negative, uh– why don’t– don’t you– I– you have the same– you have one copy in the interior and one copy in Georgetown. I’ll ask Georgetown, over. [pause] 8R1, do you copy? Female 2: Roger, roger. Female 1: On the uh, files that you have on uh, the forms for Jeremy, are they confined to a specific location on uh, permission, or is it to a uh, larger, just more general thing. Can you check your forms please? Over. Female 2: [Very weak, mostly unintelligible string] –looked them over and thought they were all right, you know, if he has to [unintelligible string] If he has to go someplace uh, where there’s– where there’s [unintelligible string Female 1: Roger. He’s gonna check, over. [pause] Female : We are checking, we are checking. Female 2: Do you copy, over? Female 1: Roger. [pause] Re– roger, I hear you. Over. Female 2: No specified areas [weak, unintelligible] There is no job. Over. Female 1: Very broad, no specified areas, over. Female 2: [weak, unintelligible string] Uh, they didn’t get it, over. Female 1: I’m sure that they got it, 8R1, but I guess they don’t have it at hand right now. so they were asking because they were more available to either you or myself, and I didn’t have mine available, so it was you, over. Female 4: I’ve got it, I’ve got it here, I’ve got it here, I’ve got it here. Female 1: Roger. There’s a little, um– Female 4: [unintelligible] Female 1: Roger. Female 2: [weak, unintelligible string] Female 1: Roger, roger. Female 4: Um, ask her if she thinks Sutton is. I mean, are you encouraged by it, or what? Female 1: Um– Sutton is optimistic about um, the ability to uh, of acceptance. He’s optimistic about the ability of acceptance. He is um, somewhat concerned about the loss of years of work, and i– whether i– we are sure that this is exactly the course that should be taken, over. Female 4: What was the last part? Female 1: That we are sure that this is what we want to do, considering um, the years of time and the fact of uh, confirmation of the uh, the– the problem of how um, serious the problem is and [unintelligible] problem will um, continue to follow the– fo– if the problem is a localized problem or one that will follow them there and re– recrop, over. Female 2: [weak, unintelligible string] Female 1: Sutton is very– he says he’s optimistic about the– about acceptance. He’s uh, rather, I guess, depressed at the thought of, you know, the situation, and uh, just wants to be– wants us to be, you know– sure, just wants us to be sure, but um, as far as acceptance, he’s pretty optimistic about it, over. Female 4: All right, what did you say he how he feels about the situation? I didn’t catch that word. Female 1: Sad, depressed, um– just, I don’t know. Some– some word like that, over. Female 4: Okay, hold on a sec. [long pause] Female 4: Mildred, um, what kind of policy do you think he was speaking about, did he say or do you have any idea? Female 1: The kind of what, over? Female 4: Which particular policy do you think he’s talking about, over? Female 1: Said um, that the uh, doors won’t be closed, over. Female 4: I’m sorry, negative copy. Female 1: He’s optimistic that the doors won’t be closed, over. Female 4: Roger, he’s optimistic that the doors won’t be closed, but what are– what policy do you think he is uh, visualizing that might be following us there too, over? Female 1: Um– stand by. Let me talk to Marvin. Female 4: Roger, roger. [long pause, picks up again at approximately 635 on the tape counter] Female 1: Okay, 8R3, do you copy? Female 4: Roger. Female 1: Okay, he said he’s optimistic. We’re uh– somebody’s uh– we’re dialing up somebody else on the phone right now to see what we can find out in their office. Um, he is optimistic about acceptance. He’s uh, totally disillusioned, that uh, he thinks that the project where you are is the uh, most outstanding thing he’s seen in his whole life. [unintelligible word] calls the situation tragic. He finds it incredible that there’s been a complete turnabout from being in favor to against. And uh, he said if that’s the case, he’s willing to uh, do everything he can to uh, help the other thing. So he’s doing um, a lot on the phone, and uh, we’ll try to get down there this weekend, over. Female 4: Okay, can you take it in shorter bits, because we missed half of it. [unintelligible] The ques– the one question was that, what– the events that you visualize that some of the– he hopes that the same problems don’t follow us there as here, in that we’re interested in knowing what policy do you think he’s talking about, over. Female 1: Um, that was half Hank, half him. Um, he said that he was upset that there had been some kind of um– or– that, if indeed what was happening was happening, there’d been some kind of organized thing there against– against uh, you know. And uh, I think that was Hank’s suggestion earlier on the other thing. That was– that was Hank, first half. Over. Female 4: Okay, so you think the same kind of uh, thing– i– he thinks the same kind of thing that was organized against us here could be organized against us there, that’s what we’re trying to find out. Female 1: Not Sutton, that’s Hank. Female 4: Roger, roger. Female 1: Also, one other thing, do you copy? Female 4: Roger. Female 1: Uh, Geneva thinks that the uh– the two should be uh– uh, taken into the capital, over. Female 4: She thinks what? I’m sorry. Female 1: She thinks the two should come out, over. Female 4: That’s right [unintelligible] Is there anything else? Female 1: No, I just thought I’d let you know, over. Female 4: Roger, roger. [pause] Did she give any reasoning? Female 1: Uh, stand by, discuss that with somebody on the staff, stand b– [unkeys] [pause] Female 4: Uh, Mildred? Layton: Mildred just went to get uh, the reasoning on uh, on uh Guinevere’s– Geneva’s uh, uh, reply uh– she’ll be right back. Over. [pause] Female 4: Uh, we want a call made from 8R1 to Ed, do you copy? Layton: Uh, Roger, roger. From 8R1 to Ed. Over. Female 4: I’m sorry, I’m sorry. It wasn’t Ed, I– I thought it was somebody else. [pause] I think it was Teddy, do you copy? Layton: Uh– negative. Please repeat. Female 4: Geneva’s husband– a call to Geneva’s husband. Do you copy? Layton: Roger, roger. Female 4: [unintelligible] Tell him that– Are you getting this down word for word? Layton: Roger. Tell him that– Female 4: Uh, we– why doesn’t he come and have his talk with the kids out here, if he is sincere, because we know he’s probably made arrangements and plans, a– Layton: Roger, roger, stand by. [pause] Uh, go ahead. Female 4: If he is sincere, why not come out to the kids and talk? Layton: Roger, stand by. Female 4: Scratch it, scratch it. Layton: An– uh, go ahead. Negative what you just said just then, but go ahead. Female 4: All right, scratch it, scratch it. Layton: Uh, uh, Mildred wants uh, to do a break here. Female 4: [more emphatic] Scratch it [unintelligible] Layton: It’s scratched, over. Female 4: If he is sincere why doesn’t he go see the kids and talk to them, over? [Pause] Layton: Uh, she said– she said– she said, do you copy? Female 4: Roger. Layton: That um– [tape edit, pause] Female: Ro– Roger, he had a later call– uh– he called later, right? Layton: Roger, roger. That’s just her reasoning, over. Female: How much later was the second call for her call, do you have any idea? Layton: Probably within an hour or an hour and a half, over. Female: Roger, did uh, Lucinda tell you the message so far for 8R1? Female 4: Uh, Ben has it. Male 1: Um, 8R1, do you copy? Female 2: Roger, roger. Male 1: Call Geneva’s husband, call Geneva’s husband, do you copy? Female 2: Tonight– [weak, sounds like she asks if the call should be made “tonight”] Male 1: Um, 8R3, do you want this to be done tonight? Over. [no response or inaudible] Male 1: 8R3, did you copy me? Female 2: [weak, unintelligible] Male 1: [more emphatic] Let me give you the message. I will give you the answer after the message. Do you copy? Female 2: Roger, roger, but I don’t think you can get a hold of him. [unintelligible] Male 1: [dictates] Tell him if he– if he is– if he is– Do you copy? Female 2: Roger. Male 1: Sincere– sincere, why doesn’t he– why doesn’t he– do you copy? Female 2: Roger. Male 1: Come here, meaning 8R3 [Female 4 doubles, “Negative negative” and repeats weakly as Male 1 speaks] and see the kids– and talk to the kids. Come there and talk to the children. Do you copy? Female 4: Negative negative. Scratch that. Will you please scratch that? I ga– I changed, and I gave her the exact quote. Where is uh, Lucinda? I gave her the exact words, over. Male 1: It says– that’s what I have. It says– Female 4: [Shouts] No. Male 1: –if he is sincere, wh– [female in room with Male 1 sounds like she is correcting him] Uh, stand by. Female 4: Please get the exact words from Lucinda. Those aren’t the exact words. Male 1: [exhales strongly, in exasperation] Roger. I– Roger, I– I was copying then, so it was my mistake. Female 4: Listen, just listen and write this down. Male 1: Roger, go ahead. [Pause] Female 4: If you are– I am going to be saying it one sentence at a time, do you copy? Male 1: Yes, roger. Female 4: You relay it each time. Male 1: I’m– I’m sorry, negative copy. Female 4: I will say it one sentence at a time, and you relay it after me, each sentence. Do you copy? Male 1: Yes. Roger, roger. [Pause] Female 4: If he is sincere, copy? Male 1: Roger. If he is sincere– Do you copy, 8R1? Female 4: Roger. Male 1: Go ahead, 8R3. [pause] 8R3, you can go ahead. Female 4: The children feel, the children feel, copy? Male 1: Roger. The children feel, the children feel– Do you copy, 8R1? Female 4: Roger, roger. Male 1: Roger, 8R3, go ahead. Female 4: That he should go to see them, that he should go to see them, copy? Male 1: That he should go to see them. Do you copy? Female 4: Roger, roger [unintelligible word] Male 1: Roger, roger 8R1, go ahe– 8R3, I’m sorry, 8R3, go ahead. Female 4: We have told them– we have told them, copy? Male 1: Roger. We have told them, we have told them, go– did you copy, 8R1? Female 2: Roger. Male 1: Go ahead, 8R3. Female 4: To make up their own minds, to make up their own minds. Male 1: To make up their own minds. Female 2: Roger. Male 1: To make up their own minds. Do you copy, 8R1? Female 2: Roger, roger. Male 1: Roger. Go ahead, 8R3. Female 4: And we put him in a good light with them, and we put him in a good light with them. Male 1: [Female in background unintelligible] And we put him in a good light with them, we put him in a good light with them. Do you copy, 8R1? Female 2: Roger, roger. Male 1: Roger, roger, 8R3, go ahead. Female 4: By saying, by saying– over. Male 1: By saying, by saying. Do you copy, 8R1. Female 2: Roger. Male 1: Roger. Go ahead, 8R3. Female 4: That he feels, that he feels, he must help the cause. Copy? Male 1: Roger. That he feels that he must help the cause. That he feels that he must help the cause. Do you copy, 8R1? Female 2: Roger. Male 1: Roger, 8R3, go ahead. Female 4: Back there, back there with Hank, with Hank. Copy? Male 1: Roger. Ba– back there with Hank. Back there with Hank. Do you copy? Female 2: Roger. Male 1: Roger. Go ahead, 8R3. Female 4: And they said they did not want to leave the group. And they said they did not want to leave the group, copy? Male 1: Roger. And they said they did not want to leave the group. And they said they did not want to leave the group. Do you copy, 8R1? Female 2: Roger, roger. Male 1: Roger, roger. Go ahead, 8R3. Female 4: And they felt, and they felt– Male 1: Um, please repeat. Did not copy. Female 4: And they felt, and they felt that he could come and visit. Copy? Male 1: Roger, roger. And they felt, and they felt that he could come– [tape edit at 768, end of recorded portion of tape. Tape runs out at approximately 787 on the counter] Side 2 [recorded portion begins at approximately 836] Female 4: –with his wife, Geneva. He can check with his wife Geneva, over. Male 1: Roger. He can check with his wife, Geneva. Over. Female 4: About their decision– about their decision. Wait– Negative, scratch it. Male 1: Roger. Lemme check and make sure 8R1 copied the last sentence though. Um, 8R1, did you copy, “He can check with his wife Geneva”, over? Female 2: [very weak] Roger. Male 1: Okay, roger 8R3. Go ahead. [pause] Female 1: Can I get some points in in the meantime, over? Female 4: Stand by a minute. We’re finishing this up. We have a little more. Female 1: Okay. Female 4: Would you repeat back to me the last sentence I gave you? Male 1: Roger. He can check with his wife Geneva. Do you copy? Female 4: Roger. Stand by. Male 1: Roger, out. [pause] Female 4: He can check with his wife Geneva because she talked to them, over. Male 1: I’m sorry, I do not copy. Female 4: He can check with his wife Geneva because she talked to them, over. Male 1: Roger, roger. He can check with his wife Geneva because she talked to him– Female 4: [doubles, attempting to correct Male 1] Negative negative negative. To them, to them, to them. Male 1: –to them, excuse me, to them. He can check with his wife Geneva because she talked with them, over. Female 4: And heard their resolve, and heard their resolve, and heard their resolve, do you copy? Male 1: And heard their resolve, and heard their resolve. 8R1, do you copy? Female 2: Negative copy, negative copy. Male 1: Where at? Where at? Female 2: [weak, unintelligible, doubles with Male 1 a little at the end] Male 1: Roger, roger. He can check with his wife Geneva, because she talked with them. Hold on, did you copy that? Female 2: [weak] Because she talked with them, over. Male 1: Roger, roger. And heard their resolve. And heard their resolve. Over. Female 2: Roger, roger. [pause] Male 1: Okay, 8R3, go ahead. Female 4: And he can see them, and he can see them or talk to them and see for himself and– He can see them and talk with them, or talk with them for himself, copy? Male 1: Roger, roger, roger. And he can see them and– or– Is it “and” or “or”, 8R3? [a helper is heard in the background here trying to help Male 1 by repeating what Female 4 is saying] Female 4: And. Male 1: Roger. He can see them and talk to them for– for himself. He can see them and talk to them for himself. Do you copy? Female 2: Roger, roger. Male 1: Okay 8R3, go ahead. Female 4: A– Put “and/or,” put “and/or.” See and/or talk to them. Do you copy? Male 1: Roger, roger. 8R3, put “see and/or talk to them”, put “see and/or talk to the– talk to them.” Do you copy? Female 2: Roger. Male 1: Okay, roger. 8R3. Go ahead. [long pause] Female 4: All right, uh, now Mildred or whoever, we need to get Geneva to talk to her on the radio for a few minutes, over. Female 1: Somebody’s getting her. I have something that may be relevant to your considerations uh, while they’re getting ‘em, is that okay, over? Female 4: Roger, go ahead. Female 1: Okay. The fact is, is that um– you know the head of Sutton’s place– the number two guy in Sutton’s place [likely Ptolemy Reid, Deputy Prime Minister of Guyana] are coming here in the next couple of days, and we’re not sure exactly what day and we won’t know that until morning, but it’s possible they’ll be here um, you know [unintelligible] um, maybe uh, tomorrow or the next day or whatever. But we need to find out the itinerary, over. [unintelligible] ourselves, you know, going into a situation where there’s nobody [unintelligible], over. Female 4: Thank you. It is very relevant information. We will certainly keep that in mind. Female 1: Roger, roger. We’ll know first thing in the morning what their itinerary is. In the meantime, do you want the committee to send on– you know, the [unintelligible] proceed on to uh, Sutton’s place, or should they wait until they find out where Sutton’s place’s boss is going and meet him where he’s going and talk to him there, or do they just go down there and wait? Over. Jones: One very bad thing about it, darling. Half of them are in readiness. This is what is weighing on our energies, there’s no sleep and rest for five days. I’m going on my sixth of rest, but no sleep that I remember anyway. We have a problem. [unintelligible] with someone saying that Sutton was proceeding immediately. Now we hear it is Saturday. Now we hear that Sutton’s mother is not going to be there. [Female 2 attempts to break in, “This is 8R1”] This is really a problem. It makes, um– [unintelligible] I don’t care because I have no image to maintain. I’m just trying to get people at peace. I’m not planting any kind of ideology. All we want is peace, nonviolence, and our people to be able to live in an egalitarian setting. But this makes for leadership difficulties when we have these reversals, which now it seems we’re gonna have to do again. Female 1: Okay, roger, then um, we’ll just proceed ahead on the contact. Uh, we’ll make the confirmations by uh– um, by telephone. We’ll proceed with the uh, committee in Chicago going down, and uh, Sutton is still optimistic, he’s still optimistic, but he just found this out. He just found this out and thought he should relay it [unintelligible] We will continue as if they will be there, and uh, send a committee on down to there, and then arrange for Marvin and uh, I guess some others to meet with uh, the head. It’s just [unintelligible] we don’t know his itinerary at this point. We’ll arrange for Marvin and them to meet with him someplace, wherever he arrives here at the same time along with Sutton. So Sutton would be– we will encourage him at all, with all pressure to meet with him wherever this guy appears here uh, stateside, over. Jones: The problem is, can he make such decisions alone? Can he make such decisions alone? [unintelligible string] there [unintelligible] there as well as here. But if a conspiracy is gonna follow us everywhere– and I don’t know why because we surely have seen friendship extended from conservatives, liberals and socialists, and no one’s got a franchise on kindness these days. I don’t know why they don’t realize that we do ˆ one any harm. But the problem is if he is not there, it’s ridiculous for us to go all [unintelligible] long [unintelligible]. It is ridiculous to arrive without him being there. Female 1: Roger, roger, roger, roger, roger. I– I agree. I agree um, anyway we got some people on the phones now– [“if”?] there’s any way to get his itinerary. We’ll try to see if we can get his itinerary tonight um, Sutton doesn’t think he can get it before morning, but he’ll see what he can do. We’ll get Sutton back on the phone [unintelligible] Jones: Uh, I’m not sure I copied [or “copy”] that– daughter, my good daughter. I’m not sure I copy. Female 1: I said, we’ll go get Sutton again and see if there’s any way possible he can get the man’s itinerary tonight. I’m not optimistic on that. This does not change Sutton’s outlook, but it just changes things logistically um– Guinevere is here, over. Jones: I remember how the Jews sailed all around the world, and no people wanted them anywhere. I’m very realistic, and I will stay alive as long as I possibly can, trying to keep people alive, but my body will not agree with my mind. Female 1: Roger, roger, roger, um, I understand that and we’ll do everything we can to– uh, do something someplace– [speaking over the top of Jones, who is unintelligible] I don’t know what to say um– we’ll just do what we can, over. Jones: [still speaking] [unintelligible]– is there any possibility of me talking to Teresa [probably Terri Buford] before we have anymore [unintelligible word]? Female 1 : Roger, we’ve got her on the phone right now. We’ve got her– we’ve got Ann on the phone right now. Um, Ann’s the one that reported to me the first situation, the first situation that– [unintelligible string] but it was felt that um, she should go down to uh, help– help straighten um, help you out, help you out– Jones: [doubles] Who– who is on the phone now? Female 1: Um, Ann said that she decided to get in some other things, but she felt this played into it. Hank, on the other hand, felt very um– said that he did not think that was the case, he did not think that was the case at all. Um, he said he’s behind you all the way and um, he doesn’t like what um, Teddy’s doing nor does he respect what Teddy’s doing. However Teddy told Paula– Are you copying this, over? Jones: Negative, I’m sorry, honey. I’m sorry. Too much. I didn’t get it. I don’t know anything, I heard something about Angela and that’s it. Female 1: Okay, Ann– [tape edit or other cut off] Jones: Ann, Ann, roger. I– I heard all about that. I got that all down, what Ann said. Do you copy? I got that strategy and support. I don’t– I don’t make strategies on matters of principle, on life and death. I don’t do that. Female 1: Roger, roger, roger, I understand that. I understand that. Um– what I was saying is that Ed has told Paula, do you copy? Jones: [“Eddy”?] told Paula, [unintelligible] Female 1: [“Sorry”?] That, that um, Hank is behind him and agrees with him 100 percent. And I talked to Hank tonight and asked him specifically if that was the case, and he said absolutely not. He’s emphatic. He was extremely upset. He did not um, he denied it 300 percent. And um, he said it was– and he most certainly, most certainly doesn’t feel that there’s any situation like that, that you are like that, and that he’s behind you until the very end and then some, over. [pause] Jones: How is Paula? Uh, how is Paula? Ask her how– she’s– uh, holding up under all this pressure. Female 1: Uh, Paula, do you copy, over? Paula : Roger, roger. Female 1 : Um, he’d like to know how you’re holding up under all this pressure, over. Paula: Uh, please explain to him, Mildred, that I thought you had told him, or that he knew– I thought he knew about statements about agreements, because I talked to you before I talked to him. Do you understand what I mean? I think that there’s um– he’s wondering why I have not told him. But by you confronting Hank, he thought he already knew, over. Female 1: No no no. That’s not– that’s not the issue. That’s not the issue at all. Don’t even worry about that. He doesn’t even– that’s not even the issue. He doesn’t know which one of us even got that call. What he wants to know, he’s feeling very badly for your situation and he wants to know how you’re holding up, over. Jones: [speaking over the top of Paula] [sounds like, “Paula, this is, did you copy?”] This is 8R3, do you copy? Paula: [unintelligible] disappointment. But I do think that [unintelligible string] telling him, I thought, realized then how it must have sounded when I gave him the report that I had left that on [“off”]. However, I thought it had already been discussed by you telling me you confronted Hank with it. So I thought it was already discussed. That’s why I didn’t mention it, over. Female 1: Roger, go ahead, 8R1, [correcting] 8R3, over. Jones: Um– what I meant was I– I think I heard a little of what she’s saying. I just know that most of the pressure falls on her there. And she’s got things she’s got to do. We’ve got some workers here that will want to uh, get some of our things, that we’ve built a lovely community. If we were to leave, we’ve left a most beautiful community. Certainly added a touch to this country that nobody else has built. A– Acres and acres of farmland and beautiful homes and nice clinic, and dining room, cafeteria– on and on and on. Community that can easily house a thousand people. But, we would like [unintelligible word] workers here to be able to get some of the appliances sold and get some of our funds so that we can develop some other area where we can have peace. And she has things [unintelligible] And that’s all I meant by that. Nothing more. I don’t know anything she may have or– or may not have done in this– in the negotiations, and tell her please don’t [unintelligible] about anything in negotiations. I don’t know a thing. I’ve heard no criticism of any sort. My question was merely out of concern because I know finally there are pe– pivotal, pivotal people that carry the brunt of the decision-making. Do you copy? Female 1: Roger, roger, roger. Um, 8R1 do you copy? Paula: [unintelligible word] Female 1: I– gonna have to summarize because it was rather long. He– he heard a little bit of what you were saying, and he was no way reflecting on any um, type of decision making or whatever you were talking about or mention of saying something or whatever. He was no way– what he’s concerned about is that there’s a few pivotal people that– who a lot of the responsibility falls on, and you’re one of them who’s there that has to take care of things and has to do this stuff and um, he feels very very badly about it, and he just wants to know how you feel. It is in no way, at all, reflects on anything that you’re doing. He’s uh, wanting to know how, how you’re feeling under all the pressure of the situation, over. Paula: Uh, roger, roger, roger. Um, I’m just reacting to that as if I were reacting [unintelligible] so don’t think that, you know [unintelligible string] but you know, nothing surprises me anymore, and I don’t have any illusions, so I certainly don’t have any disappointments. And as far as uh– I don’t– you know I don’t feel like I’m reac– you know, [unintelligible word] any problems, I mean the responsibility is um, I eh, [unintelligible] I’m not saying it’s anything like his, but I don’t, you know, I don’t feel that I’m having any problems and uh, and you know, I mean, I don’t feel any– I don’t feel anything [unintelligible] I don’t know, [unintelligible] problems I don’t– that I can see, over. Female 1: 8R3, did you hear that? Over. Jones: [unintelligible string] I can’t. Uh–Who is in with her, by the way? Female 1: Who’s in the room with you Paula? Over. Paula: Uh, Laura and Karen, over. Female 1: Who? Paula: Laura, Laura, Laura and Karen, over. Female 1: Laura and who? Paula: Karen, Karen, Karen, over. Female 1: Laura and Karen. Is that it? Over. Paula: Roger, roger, roger. Female 1: [unintelligible word] Stand by, stand by. Jones: Laura and Karen, did you say? Female 1: Negative copy, 8R3. Jones: L– Laura and Karen, did you say? Female 1: Roger, roger. Jones: I know that there are some older people there [unintelligible] great deal of responsibility and [unintelligible string] and I just wan– want to know if she’s holding up. I know what I’m going through. This is the roughest thing I’ve ever had to go through in my life. Female 1: Roger, roger. Jones: Tell ‘er. Female 1: Um, I’m trying to get this, Paula. Um, he says that this is the– the roughest thing that he’s had to go through in his life– and he um, and uh– and he just wanted to know– he knows what he’s going through, and there’s not a lot of pe– [tape edit] Paula: [unintelligible] and um, I don’t feel that I’m, you know– I don’t feel that I’m having any problems [unintelligible] I don’t feel, you know, I mean, I don’t think I’m affected by anything like um, like Ed’s or Teddy’s um, behavior. [unintelligible string] happen that nothing surprises me anymore, and I don’t think I ever had to– any illusions about Oscar, over. Female 1: Um, she said that she has uh, no illusions anymore. She’s not surprised. The same with um, Ed is not surprising to her and she feels that– Stand by. Jones: Negative copy [unintelligible] one last question [unintelligible] I’ve got to make a decision [unintelligible] recall these people, recall these people from the jungle [unintelligible], do you copy? Female 1: Roger, roger. Jones: Uh– how would people of the persuasion of the president’s [unintelligible] airline [unintelligible] react to this decision? I like seeing opinions. That’s, you know, [unintelligible] commitment to my people. [unintelligible string] very brave [unintelligible word] the leader of that nation, and that– that speaks a lot to me. But I know he is not popular in some circles. And I know how [unintelligible] ideologues are about– you know, I– I just don’t want to catch any more pressure for our people from different quarters. And, then I would like to know– Um, I don’t what– what it was I was going to say to that. And anyway, Sutton can get ahold [unintelligible] what time [unintelligible] later over there than here. It might be [unintelligible] Uh, so if, if you call him and find out something, because this is ridiculous to go without any feeler being put out at all. Female 1: I’m not– I’m not sure. Lemme repeat this [unintelligible word] back to you because I’m not sure I understood [unintelligible] that I follow half of what you’re saying. I think you’re asking us to have Sutton phone the guy, the one who’s been arrested so many times, and find out when he’s going to be there. Over. Jones: I said how will people of the presidential airline incident, do you copy? Female 1: How many people [can hear helper in background] from the airline incident, roger. Jones: [unintelligible] the airline incident, do you copy? Female 1: Roger. Jones: [unintelligible] to this. How does Hank react to this? Because this person is outta line, outta line. I don’t care, but I gotta think about any more added pressures on my people, do you copy? Female 1: Roger, roger. Jones: Then [unintelligible] I would like to see that Sutton could make another call. It’s early in the morning over there. He could call and put at least a feeler out before we board the airline and go, do you copy? Female 1: Negative. I, I mean, we got some of it. We’re getting bits and pieces. Will you please repeat something about– from Sutton on I lost you, about get ahold of Sutton. Something about boarding the airlines and going, over. Jones: I think that before we go, Sutton should check– at least have a feeler– of, a more definite feeler on what he is assuring us of, we have a little more definite commitment before we go, even though we are under duress here by undoubtedly, undoubtedly– some trying to destroy us. No matter how sincere some of the government are, it’s some– some elements that’re trying to destroy us. But we must have some feeler now. Do you copy? I must recall. I must recall the people. Female 1: Okay, roger, roger. Um. You want several things done then. You want– you want Hank’s opinion on this. You want– you want people of the variety of the airline incident’s opinion on this. And you want Sutton to feel– you want Sutton to make a call down to the guy, to find out what his opinion is right now. Over. Jones: And last, but is the most important. Nobody else has come up with anything. Nobody else has come up with any alternative, have they? Female 1: Negative, negative, negative. Jones: Any remote ideas? Female 1: Negative negative. Jones: Then you’d better get a feeler immediately and just explain to the lady, we have little [unintelligible word], we have little options. Female 1: Is this the airline lady or is this Sutton’s lady? Over. Jones: [doubling] I’ll gladly do, I’ve become jumpy. I’ve become a disgrace. [unintelligible] but I will not do violence. I will not be involved in violence. I’ve kept people here calm and [unintelligible string] calm with the kind of duress we’ve been going through. I’ve offered to do anything. I’ve offered to offer myself up, but the people won’t have it this way. So we’ve got only one option. And they’ll just have to understand that. Do you copy? Female 1: I copied some, um– I copied enough so you don’t have to repeat it. Okay, so you want– you want– you want Sutton to call and– and find out something definite. Roger? Jones: Hold off on anymore [unintelligible, something about “vehicles”?] Hold off, and [unintelligible string] hold off– do– uh– Do you, you copy? Female 1: You want us to hold off on what? Over? Jones: [too faint, unintelligible] must’ve had my microphone open. I was talking to the people here. Um, a quick check with Ha– with Hank, um– and I’ve got to tell, I guess I’ve got to tell Geneva something, that a quick check with Sutton probably is first in line. A quick check, ‘cause I can’t make any more adventures. This, these people want [unintelligible] but I’ve got to exercise judgment. I have to exercise some judgment here. It’s a democracy, but I’ve got to exercise some judgment. And the counselors have some reluctance, some of them. But finally, the weight’s on my shoulders and I’ve got to exercise some very, very strong judgment. Female 1: Okay, roger, roger. Jones: Are you going to talk– you going to talk to her? Hey, I thought Teresa was on the line– [unintelligible, doubles with Female 1] line. Female 1: [over the top of Jones] Roger, she is. We’ll patch her in. Stand by. Oh, we’re gonna have to get her back on, it was– too long a um, [unintelligible word] We’ll get her back on. Stand by. [pause] Okay, um– I– Okay, roger. [long pause] Male 1: Uh, WB6MID portable 8R3, [pause] do you copy? Female 2: Roger, roger, roger. Male 1: Okay 8R3, the phone patch is ready, the phone patch is ready– and connected. Female 2: Okay, stand by for a second. Stand by for a second. Male 1: Roger, roger [doubling with female] Female 2: [unintelligible] copy, all right? Male 1: Uh, I’m sorry. Uh– Negative copy. Female 5 : [unintelligible] Male 1: Oh, roger, roger. Stand by. Female 5: Count! Male 1: Oh– one two three four five six seven eight nine ten. Do you copy? Female 5: Roger [unintelligible] copy [unintelligible] Male 1: Roger, roger. Can you hear o– Female 5: Stand by [unintelligible] Male 1: Roger, roger. [pause] Jones : Hello, hello, hello? Female 1: Say again. Marceline: Hello? Jones: Hello, darling, how are you? Marceline: I’m doing all right. How are you? Jones: Well– I’m– going on my sixth day of [unintelligible string] sixth night [unintelligible string] Marceline: [unintelligible, over the top of Jones] Jones: [unintelligible string] do you copy? Marceline: I, I couldn’t hear. I heard that you’ve gone the sixth night without sleep. What else? I couldn’t hear the rest. Jones: I said I’ve been dealing with some– some difficult cases, like a [unintelligible] a [unintelligible] you know, that you had to call long distance. Um, you know the [unintelligible] you had to call Teddy. He has taken several hours, and he is completely schizophrenic. Marceline: [unintelligible word] [drops signal] Jones: Do you copy? Female 1: Hit “Respond” now. Marceline: Roger, roger. Do you have anything resolved? Jones: Well, he’s threatening to destroy us and his children two hours ago. And now he’s says he’s prepared to let his children to do what they want. But his wife has been very strong in her commitment to our [unintelligible] and our [unintelligible] life of peace somewhere. There’s the song you used to find so precious, somewhere there must be a blue bird of happiness. Marceline: Jim, uh, have you been able to talk him into staying there, into staying there? Jones: Um, I– I can only say that he does not seem [unintelligible] It– It was outrageous that– six hours I had of this man, saying that you agreed with him and saying that Hank agreed with him, and trying [unintelligible] division. One thing you want to be very careful about, do you copy. Marceline: Roger. Jones: Don’t change– like, he said, I had to be pabulum fed and, given the good news, and I know you didn’t say all that he said but, you’ve got to be very careful [unintelligible] looking for excuses because they’re afraid [unintelligible] which was only a remote possibility that they might have to give their lives when we were under attack here. We naturally couldn’t just roll over and play dead, we have to resist [unintelligible] Doctor King, Martin Luther King tells us which we have to resist in the [unintelligible] fashion, and require if they came for one, they would have to come for all. But someone mentioned that to him, and he went absolutely berserk and jumped over a fence with his suitcase and took off. But I [unintelligible] and oh my God, so many threats from him. We um– he sa– he says– unless he’s up to some kind of trickery, prepared to let his children make– live– they’re grown, after all, make their own mind. Marceline: Um, I would like to know if he is prepared to stay [unintelligible word]. Is he gonna stay in Georgetown and help you there. Jones: Negative, negative, negative. He says no. He says that he will want to go back and help Hank there. I find that very contradictory. Hank says he does not trust him, he does not [unintelligible word] him. I would think that the– the kind of things that he feared, the frame-ups that he feared would be posed at– against him. It sounds very strange that he is so anxious to go back there. Female 1: Go ahead. Marceline: Uh, I’m a little bit um, at a loss as to what to do still. We’re waiting here to get something about [unintelligible string] I would like to, to be able to talk him into staying there. Richard has left to come there for the purpose of starting to find businesses. Do you copy me? Jones: We have been under such a state of siege here. We know the good people in the government, but there is obvious division here, and also pressure being brought to bear o– ha– high cabinet level [unintelligible] pressure being brought by [unintelligible] group, the conspiracy that started elsewhere, and– that they didn’t know how well they could hold up under it. So we have been taken, taking Sutton’s offer and we’re half way prepared to go. Uh, but it is not as [unintelligible] our signals couldn’t be worse. We’re told Sutton’s proceeding immediately and that there’s a [unintelligible word]. And I know he’s a brave brave cousin. And I thought being it’s later over there in your, early in the morning rather, that he’d be there about now. Now I find out that that was misinformation. Someone here on this radio or there said that he– uh, Sutton won’t be able to go ‘till Saturday. Do you copy? Marceline: I copied something about going Saturday, I don’t know. You mean to Barbados? Female 1: Sutton won’t be there till Saturday. [pause] Jones: Barbados? Uh, not Barbados. I said Europe. [pause] You know, you know, where Sutton suggested that we would be able to find some peace, do you copy? Marceline: Roger, roger. But did you get the message about the council here about me talking with him, Jim? Jones: Uh, [unintelligible] talking with Hank [weak, unintelligible string] our, our stories straight, um– [weak, unintelligible string] we, you can’t do otherwise when everybody’s lives in danger and we [unintelligible word] stop the physical coercion against us. It may be placating, but there’s– there’s been a promise by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court that this unconstitutional act, this illegal arrest order will be withdrawn Monday. Time will tell. But there’s very, very, very, very strange things that have gone on here. And my people can’t endure much more harassment. I’m like a Stonewall Jackson. I can take it. I can take it. This up and down and– you know, back and forth, now to having to recall people from the airlines and from the vehicles when they’re half way prepared to go, is not quite the way the leadership should be directing things, and I’ve based it on uh, uh, Thomas said that he [“we”?] would be received there. Now I find it’s only probable. And I’m not moving on probability. Marceline: I– Did you get the message that the consul said that it was advisable that your project was in no jeopardy. It was advisable, of course you follow your consul’s, your, uh, legal advise, which is [unintelligible word] there’s no extradition of, of– that the project was not in jeopardy. Jones: Incredible. [weak, unintelligible string] You don’t really believe that Thomas [unintelligible] that this very thing would not happen at the highest level. I’m told by one person in the cabinet, to do what we did and not be here if– you know, do you copy up to this point? Marceline: Roger. Jones: And then another cabinet man of equal stature said don’t trust [unintelligible] government, and he turns out right, then I’m caught in the middle with an arrest order for doing what my counselors told me to do, and this man that’s high level in the government, uh– this was told absolutely would not happen. [unintelligible] But yet many representatives and other officials have been out here harassing twice in the most insensitive fashion, do you copy? Marceline: Roger, I copy. Have they been out there again, or are you talking about the times that I know about? Jones: [weak, unintelligible string] tomorrow. I don’t know what is the idea tomorrow. But that’s why– naturally Sutton’s offer was very attractive. The– the point is that when a defense force plane is carrying them around, somebody is backing them, and I don’t want to say in the government assured us that it is a very pro– conspiracy, you know what I mean? The conspiracy [unintelligible] of this thing that was exposed by the press and by brave people stepping forward. [unintelligible] civil rights movement, that that conspiracy has reached here with its money, do you copy? Marceline: I copy that, but I can’t help but feel that this Doctor [sounds like, “Berlitz”] felt that you– in any situation, as you said, you know there might– there’s gonna be division. But, um, he was– he was highly complimentary of what’s happening there, uh, on the project. And uh, of course you know what Hank’s counsel was as far as the child– as far as uh, uh, your legal right to let someone else take care of the child. Uh, this uh, is putting a small country in a bad situation and uh, it’s– that he wanted two weeks to go for there to be another uh, [unintelligible], Uh, you know, I don’t think we should probably be talking about this over the radio. I don’t know. Jones: I don’t– I couldn’t copy half of that. I didn’t copy half of that. Marceline: [unintelligible] can I talk to him again? Female: Yeah, try. Talk louder and slower. Marceline: Can I talk to him about that? Garry hasn’t told him about it, [unintelligible] Female: Stand by, stand by, stand by. [pause] Jones: Uh, negative copy. Male: Um, wu– wu– standing by for a second. Um, Mildred’s relaying some of what you just said, over. [pause] Female: Okay, roger, roger. Go ahead. Jones: You see, there’s one thing [unintelligible] that life has [unintelligible] and it has its disappointments. And it has a potential of death. The quicker you face that, the better you can prepare against it. What was going on here called for the most drastic kind of action. Some of our people were almost beside themselves. You don’t know– and I’ve not been properly interpreted, you don’t know what I had– to what degree I had to go to keep the peace. It almost seemed like we had provocateurs– a couple in the community. This has been hell. But I have demanded that we are going live by pacifism, and that no one would be ever harmed or hostages, nothing like that. No acts of violence or terror. We are peace-loving people. But when you’re being shot at– and they’re whizzing through the crowd and puttin’ a hole through my wall, missing me by inches, and harassment of every kind, and officials stepping forward, saying that there is an undermining campaign against us, even to the outright destruction. It’s not just what I received. You can check with the other people here. I think you have a feeling, sometimes, for what I am getting from Hank and others, that I tend to uh, overreact. Anybody else that [unintelligible word] in this movement right now [unintelligible word]. Marceline: Roger, uh, I didn’t hear what you’re receiving from Hank. What did you say? Jones: Well, from what I’ve heard that– the mother’s [Grace Stoen] communications are a problem, that there’s some feeling that there might be overreacting, that we’re overreacting. And as I said if anybody else out [unintelligible string] leader of this movement, we would not be in existence now. Do you copy? Marceline: I copy, and uh, I certainly don’t feel that uh, you’ve overreacted. I feel, and I’m– I thought that Hank felt that if you could move, [unintelligible string] it might bring more on yourself, uh, you know, as far as what family, if it hits the press, you know, you may– you may not be able to, to– You know, there’s gonna be more come down on you in the way of family. Do you understand? Jones: Uh, I didn’t copy that. I didn’t copy that. [pause] Marceline: I don’t feel that you’re overreacting. I only am thinking that the media that you’re using, uh, it’s, uh, this uh, get to the press about uh, what’s happening there. You’ve got families that are going to come down. I don’t know. Uh, you’re going to have more problems. You understand? Jones: I’m gonna have more [unintelligible] you say? Marceline: Hmm– Um, never mind. It’s not important. Jones: Did you say more troubles are coming this way? Marceline: [emphatic] Negative, negative, negative! I am saying that I do not feel you’re overreacting, only that I think, and I think this is what Hank has said, that you’re using a public medium for airing things that should not be aired because people that hear, who have loved ones [unintelligible] situation are– were gonna– it’s gonna bring more down on us, wh– then we [cuts off] [edit] Jones: [unintelligible] where else could we have gotten [unintelligible] Nobody’s bothering us now. Nobody’s bothering us now, except that one situation. And that uh, [unintelligible] that I told you about, [unintelligible] from threatening us one moment and then saying the next he wants everybody to do what will make them happy. And, [unintelligible] but uh– uh, we had no choice. We had no choi– What else, where else are we to go? We made [“a peace”?] [unintelligible] and I risked my life, literally, for my [unintelligible] there. And, we– we asked for just simple assurance that none would be hurt or extradited on some false charge. And we could not get such an assurance. Now you tell me there’s such an assurance. Marceline: The doctors assured me there was no extradition. That as a, uh, you know– this uh, he said we do not have uh, the kind of a government that can bypass the process[unintelligible] papers. The right counsel you should have had was [unintelligible string] was the person i– in question. And the idea that [unintelligible] you know, that uh, Mildred and I had talked about which would not [unintelligible] but that should have been done, and should have said, “I don’t know, I don’t know”, do you understand? Jones: Roger, right. Roger, right. But– Yeah, I don’t know and I didn’t know, and I still got an illegal arrest order. [unintelligible] served writ of habeas corpus that I never saw. This is unconstitutional. And that’s not supposed to happen. And you’re not supposed to have an arrest order or unconstitutional [unintelligible] served writ, but I still have an arrest order. You see, uh, this is [unintelligible string] but we did not get an assurance then, that there would be no extradition. You people are getting one bit of information. I’m getting another. And I can only tell you that many other hear– many others here heard it besides me. Marceline: You’re– Roger, I’m just, I understand. I understand your apprehension, and I would too. And I, I– I wouldn’t want you to do anything to jeopardize yourself. I’m only asking what happened to the advice with the little one [John Victor Stoen] for the period of time– Um– I’m only– You must realize that we probably have the only counsel in the United States that truly understands everything about it. But if we don’t advi– uh, file any [unintelligible] you know, I don’t know how long this will go on, over. Jones: [unintelligible string] how long, [unintelligible] principal person [unintelligible] I can’t do anything about that. [unintelligible] I didn’t make this decision. All 700 moved to vote. [unintelligible] a democracy. Marceline: [unintelligible] I understand what you’re doing here. I’m asking about this other bit of advice that you were given, given what the reason was for it not– not some effort being made on that. [pause] Jones: We were told [unintelligible string] was the only safe place in the world– with one place [unintelligible string] only be there for a few days. So, I don’t know about that, now where she’s at, but I can tell you [unintelligible] there’s no real solution to this situation. This is uh– I mean somebody’s gonna have to get consistent with the information they’ve given me. I did what I was told by the counselors. I did what I was told by [unintelligible string] anybody, and said it would be all right. Nothing could happen. No controversy– [unintelligible string] [cut off] Tape ends at approximately 570 on the tape counter. |