If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.
To return to the Tape Index, click here. To read the Annotated Tape Transcript, click here.
To read the Tape Summary, click here. Listen to MP3 (Pt. 1, Pt. 2).
(Note: This tape was transcribed by Kathryn Barbour. The editors gratefully acknowledge her invaluable assistance.)
(Editor’s note: Side 1 of this tape has numerous breaks due to malfunctions in the recording equipment at the church service, sometimes lasting less than a second. Rather than noting each one, this transcript will indicate only those which make a word or sentence unintelligible, or which most likely were deliberate edits.)
Male: –have been praised by our government as giving the highest level of care. We have a large children’s ranch on 40 acres of land. Many of the– (tape edit)
Jones: –give your neighbor an embrace, or a clasp of the hand, and say, God’s love be with you. We have Hindustani, Moslem, Christian gathered in this– these portals, and it is written, whosoever loveth is born of God and knoweth God. So greet your neighbor with love, get to know your neighbor, relax and say “peace and blessings” or hello to your neighbor. Will you do that? Everyone, look at your neighbor. If you don’t see God in your neighbor, you’ll not see God in the abstract. For you are the temples of the Holy Spirit. When Jesus was taken away, he said for what good work do you stone me? They said, for no good work but because you, being a man, make yourself God. He said it is written, Ye all are Gods. That’s what Jesus came to manifest, Krishna, and all the prophets of the great holy orders came to manifest, that we are temples of the living God. Today we have come desperately in this hour, seeking a manifestation of God. For if God is not manifest in our midst, how are we to believe? Jesus said, these signs shall follow the believer. He said, after I’ve gone away these things shall ye do and greater, because I go to the Father. If it were not so, then he would have told us. He said, I am the same today, yesterday and forever. The God that changeth not. Yet in many parts of the world today, we have barely a form of godliness denying the power thereof. Institutional religion, paid clergy, clergy living far abi– above the standards of their people, and no real active– activity of the Holy Spirit in the midst of the people. But Jesus said in the judgment, when he came to separate those that were unjust from those that were just, of the sheep from the goats, he said I was hungry, and you fed me not. That’s why I feel terribly ridiculous in this suit. I never wear it. And I feel most ridiculous in it. Isn’t there some robe back there? I dress very ordinarily, and I’ve adopted eight children and I own no car, and I believe that that is not necessarily the standard that everyone must live by. I only own one pair of shoes, and I find that that’s most convenient for me. I only have two feet.
Congregation: Scattered laughter
Jones: (Clears throat) But I feel– I feel most ridiculous in this suit, and if there’s some choir robe or something back there, I would like to be more at ease than I am in someone else’s suit. Whoever bought this was not me, I would’ve never bought one like it. But Jesus said that we were to minister to the needs of humanity. Make God manifest. He said if we did not feed the hungry and clothe the naked, there would be no evidence that God was in the world. If we did not heal the sick, [if] we did not bring help, not only spiritually or esoterically or paranormal, but bring power to bring hospital care and medical care. I just looked to my left and saw one of the youngsters that we adopted out in Port Kaituma. And we’re adopting children there every day, we have 27,000 acres upon which we hope to build an apostolic community, where there’ll a hospital, where there’ll be schools, where there will be equal housing for all. That’s why we came to Guyana because the Guyanese government has said they want to food– they want to feed and clothe and house the nation, and by 1976. Well, if the church doesn’t do it, government will have to do it. And too many places we find churches building great cathedrals and great synagogues, and there’s no ministry for the needs of humanity. It’s time that we either get– uh, get ourselves in a condition of being hot or cold, because the lukewarm will be spewn out of the mouth of God. If we are to be his disciples, we are to be living epistles, living Bibles, read and known of all men everywhere. None of us do enough. I never feel like I’ve begun to even touch the bottom, to reach to the top. But it is our purpose to strive forward to perfection. As Jesus said, be ye perfect, even as I and the Father are perfect. And in apostolic cooperative living, as it was on the day of Pentecost, there is a solution for man’s hunger, there’s solution for man’s poverty. There’s solution for war! Because on the day of Pentecost, when they were filled with that great ecumenical spirit, when the Holy Ghost descended upon them and they were filled to overflowing, they shared their possessions. No one had to legislate it, no one had to enact laws to cause people to share. They shared from house to house, and it was said of them that they had all things common. We deeply wish to share with you today, we deeply hope and we’ll strive, we have limited space, time to this building– for the use of this building, but we will, with all the time that we have, employ our eff– our best effort to bring health to you, to encourage you to believe that God is not dead, but still alive.
Congregation: Stirs
Jones: And as our hands are clasped across this room, the musician plays something in the background. God the Father of all living beings. (voice rises, then moderates) The same God in every temple, synagogue and shrine throughout this great Guyanese republic. We’re calling upon your name, Jehovah Jireh, according to our Judeo-Christian tradition. But God-love, we’re calling upon the name of love, to manifest yourself, to speak, to show us in a spiritual way that the presence, the eternal presence of Christ, is still here. (voice rises, then moderates) We’re asking for the signs and wonders that filled the early church, that caused people to drop all their possessions and their wares and their status symbols and follow the Christ. We’re asking for a movement of the Holy Spirit in our midst today, that will cause people to believe that there’s hope. We ask it in the name of Christ. Amen, and amen. Would you stretch just once and then be seated. Would you stand and stretch.
Congregation: Stirs, piano plays softly
Jones: (Clears throat) (Pause) Perhaps we should sing some little chorus, and we come from our American churches, knowing uh, difference– uh, different choruses, I– I’m sure, than you’re used to. What’re you singing there, what’re you playing?
(Voice too soft)
Jones: (Sings) How God has (tape edit) (Speaks) And looking over to my side, I felt that you’re having some trouble with arthritis, the joints up here in the neck and in the knees are bothering you. So just stand up right now and stretch them out. Stand them up and stretch them out. Move them up, move them up, move them up. (Pause) Now bend them back and forth that way. Now bend the knee joints. The dampness is– continue it on, continue. There’s a power of love that transcends all mortal error, and all mortal limitation. Again, again now, now why does the– our gracious minister did back there, our black brother. Will you jump up and down? Try it. Jump up and down. Just like a little child, become like a little child, become like a little child.
Congregation: Cheers, piano plays more loudly
Jones: (Calls out) Wonderful! Wonderful!
Singer: Whoa!
Jones: (Joins in song) Well, Kumbaya/ Somebody needs you now –(speaks) Blessing. (unintelligible word). Is the– is the pain all gone? (Pause) It’s all gone! You’re wonderful. You’re wonderful.
Singer: Somebody needs you now/ Kumbaya
Jones: (Joins in song) Somebody needs you now, kumbaya, some– (tape edit) (speaks) –important as the fruits of the spirit. Can you get someone a seat here, so that we can be able to move on, because if we have much disruption, we will have– and you must always prefer your brother and your sister above yourself. Selfishness is not the way of any great religion, it’s not the way of Christ. He said, deny yourself. The people that will get healing often are the ones who are coming for someone else. (aside, off mike) Will you, brother, help– help them with that, help them with seats, help them out (pause) (tape edit) Bible that uh, I don’t know, how many have your Bibles here? Of course, we’re all different religions. How many have a Bible here? A hundred and fiftieth Psalm, but I don’t see enough to sing it, we can put the Bible to song, or we might sing something at this moment, while people are getting– I wish you wouldn’t crowd the aisles. You’ll find it won’t do what you want it to do. Love and unselfishness is the thing that accomplishes more than anything else. (Clears throat) (pause) Hands clasped, please. If we will be seated. Sometimes I feel I have to write down certain things, and we will– we will notify you by mail, if there’s something personal. Hands clasped. (pause) What is it? Father, have mercy. Our old spiritual that our brothers and sisters that came over in the times of slavery and indentured servitude. Father, have mercy. (Pause) Yes, Father have mercy,
Choir: Have mercy–
Jones: (Joins in song) Have mercy– (tape edit)
Jones: (Speaks) –area. Sometimes I feel to move out in the auditorium, (tape edit) makes no– (Pause) Please, would you keep a little section right here free, that I could walk down. I never know what I’m going to do, and having been up for over a week making plans for our agricultural mission, where we will have facilities for everyone, I am more tired than usual, and thus I would appreciate if we could have just a little space that we could get through, if there was someone that I feel led to go to. Because that’s the way my ministry functions. I’m moved by something I can’t explain, and something will come as it did to the sister about the growth and the pain she was having in her head, back there. Or this sister that was in pain here. Something will come, and then I must have freedom to get to them, or to see them, to make contact with them. Hands clasped, please. (pause) Pray as you are accustomed to pray, because one God answers us. We’re one God, one people, one world. (long pause) (tape edit) Write down some things that are too private to mention, here, please, if you will allow me. No talking if you would, pre– (Pause) There’s some woman– or I– Fernandez, Fernandez? Excuse the way I butcher the English language, we Americans have gotten away from pure English. (Pause) Albertina. Bless you. The pain all gone from your head now, and all from your side? Oh, you’ve brought the growth? There’s the growth that has passed. Bless you! (Calls) Mighty God! Mighty God! Mighty God!
Congregation: Scattered calls, applause
Singer: (singing) Oh Father, have mercy, have mercy–
Jones: Just hold it up there, rather than go through the auditorium, I can see– She said all of her pain’s gone. This woman’s a stranger to me, you can check with her after the service if you want to. She rushed here. (tape edit) gone! Her growth is gone! So let that visualization, let that visualization (tape edit) because (tape edit) you visualize, you tend to materialize. As you think in your mind, so are you. The power of mind is a great unknown phenomena. A great unknown quantity. We do not believe that this ministry takes the place of medical science, because Luke was a great physician. We believe the healing as described in the early church, the herbs and the leaves were for the healing of the nation. We believe in doctors, we believe in medicine, but we also believe that when man cannot reach you, God can reach you!
Congregation: Applause
Jones: Praise the name. Praise the name. By the way, the sister that’s carrying that growth was once a Catholic sister, uh, now she works with the Catholic ecumenical and Protestant ecumenical brotherhood of people. She is of Catholic background, she was paralyzed on her left side from a stroke. This woman is– she came to me, came with me, all the way from Am– United States of America. She was paralyzed on her (tape edits) –been healed ever since. And she traveled, she just came in on one of our boats, from up Port Kaituma way. So that’s something to see, a woman near 80, traveling night and day, going all over the States with me. She’s my mother, in the spirit. She’s my mother in God. And she’s a great and grand lady. So God is no respecter of person (tape edit) be Protestant or Catholic, Jewish, Mohammedan, Hindustani, (calls out) whosoever loveth is born of God, and God is here to meet your needs, so don’t think there’s any particular little ritual or routine, for God honors faith, wherever it is. Infinite mind honors faith, wherever faith is manifest.
Voice in crowd (likely Archie Ijames): Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Jones: Blessings. Blessings. Blessings. Blessings. When I say that, say that to your neighbor. Say “Blessings” to your neighbor, because it’s you and I that’ll do this together, not just me alone. I’m still concerned about a woman, if you would– just a moment– uh, Albertina Fernandez. Who is this? Again, one of those situations that are of urgent nature, where there’s pain, (Pause) impending blood pressure stroke, as it was with this woman that was just healed. Somewhere in this vast assembly, where are you? Would you wave your hand? Albertina, I know you’ll have trouble understanding my Americanized– my butchered English, but try to be patient with me. Albertina– (tape edit) You have some loved one named Janie, or something of that sort?
Voice too soft
Jones: Is your address 1080? You have trouble with your heart. You woke up this morning with trouble here, in the center section, of your body. You lift up your hands now, the pain will go away, because this evening, I feel that you would’ve passed away. But you will not now.
Singer: Oh! Oh, have mercy, have mercy on me. (tape edit)
Jones: –on away, let’s clap and make a joyful noise unto God.
Singers: (Diana Wilkinson and male singer) Have mercy, have mercy on me. Oh, God, have mercy, oh, ye– (tape edit)
Jones: (Several sentences incomprehensible with repeated technical difficulties) People are moving and pulling the cords away from the microphone. (pause) Blessings. When I (tape edit) out to the auditorium, faith be it unto you. As I said, I am just a humble servant. Anything I have to (tape edit) it’s because love has been given to me from God. Or from good. (Incomprehensible sentences) Shhhh. You’ll have to be very quiet. All those promptings, all those revelations must be answered. When I call someone in this fashion. (numerous breaks) (Pause) Hands clasped, please. (Pause) Whose mother’s name– maiden name is Broderick? (tape edit) –to each other, and we’ll be coming every few months. Because we’ll be coming– (tape edit) night and day, in the agricultural mission, think that’s the most important thing, to feed and to clothe and to house people. So whenever we come, whether it be to this church or whatever place we happen to come, and we will become acquainted with each other, and we’ll be able to love each other more freely, and as that happens, miracles can [take] place in great significance. (pause) Broderick. (long pause, intermittent bursts of recording broken by breaks) –just a miracle that I’m able to speak to you, because I’ve been able to speak about– I’ve been speaking 20 hours a day,
Voice: That’s true.
Jones: –entire week (long break, noises on tape) You’ve told no one in this building, and I don’t know anything about your background, is that correct? Go to the bathroom and you’ll find not only will your pain be gone, but your urine will clear, as clear as water.
Voice: Oh, thank God!! Yes!
Singer: Ohhh, ohh.
Jones: Amelia Barnhart. Who is this? Another stranger to me. Amelia Barnhart. I can’t find the person when I’m not able to see them. Just a-thinking, if you can let me see through there, she can– just as long as I can see her. (pause) (Aside) No, I don’t need that. Thank you. (Pause) (tape edit) You– Can we– Don’t– don’t press there, till we can see– Right there is it (unintelligible word). (to audience) Hands clasped. Pull that back. (Pause) Just stand right there for a moment now. Is this uh– (Pause) Amelia Barnhart. Bless you. Hands clasped. If you’ll look just at me, just look at me. You don’t have to look directly at me, but look this way, so that I know that you’re making communications. You’ve injured a limb at some time, you’ve injured a limb, or a knee. Yes, the knee. And uh, you have a very bad difficulty in this area, I feel that now. I don’t know you. I’ve never met you in my life, is that correct? May the love of God– You’ve come– you’ve come for someone else, but God is meeting you. You’ve come for the need of Margaret. But the need of your own life is going to be met. Our hands clasped, please. Hands clasped, please. There’s something I want to write down, for just a moment, please. (Pause) Now in the name of Christ, in the name of the love of God, we move into this body. I’d like to show that we don’t have to touch, but sometimes it helps to touch. (tape edit)
Congregation: Applause
Singer: Father throughout–
Jones: The pain in her stomach and the abdominal region and the crippled knee is all healed. Let’s praise the name of the living God.
Singer: He is the great I Am, the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end–
Jones: (joins singer) –his name– (tape edit) (Speaks) Now, it’s all clear. Let’s praise for that. He went to the bathroom and his urine’s all clear.
Singer: –I Am, the alpha and omega–
Jones: (joins singer) –the beginning and the end, his name is wonderful, the prince of peace is he–
Singer: –he’s the everlasting father, throughout eternity .
Jones: (Speaks) Clarice– (pause) Clarice Freitas. I’m getting a– a danger signal of high blood pressure again. Pressure around the shoulder, the neck, the head. Clarice, I think it is, Freitas. The best I can say in my American English. Who is this person? Clarice Freitas. You’re here. I would not feel you if I did not know your presence. (Pause) Right there, that’s all right. Lift your hand. You’ve been having– You know you have blood pressure problems, is that correct? Yes, she says. You’re a stranger to me, is that correct? Yes, she says. Let’s put out our hands, now. May the name of Christ, the name of love, Christ means anointing, means goodness. May the name of Christ, the name of love, the name of God be exalted. Emmanuel God with us. Touch her body. We ask it, and we give you the glory. Now try it. Now try your neck, ma’am. Try your neck. (Pause) Is the pressure gone? Is the pressure gone from your head?
Voice too soft.
Jones: Yes sir, it’s all gone. Let’s be grateful. Let’s be grateful. Blessings, blessings to God.
Archie Ijames: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Congregation: Applause, music swells
Jones: Blessed. Rejoice with your neighbor! Rejoice with your neighbor! (Pause) (Sings) It’s not by might–
Wilkinson: (joins Jones) it’s not by pow– (tape edit) by the spirit save (tape edit)
Jones: (Speaks) –really wonder who’s be– missionarizing to who, because we feel like we’ve received the most benefit being in Guyana, because we have much that you could teach us. But if you wish to help with anything after hearing our broadcast, give it to the Ministry of Agriculture, or one of these GS uh– What is it, the youth– youth organization that all political parties seem to identify with here? G– (stumbles over words) GFC, isn’t it? Or the FGC. Food. I– I’m not familiar,
Voice from Audience: FCH.
Jones: FCH. Food, clothing and housing the nation by 1976. Our t– number at which you’ll be able to reach one of our executives is 61592. That phone will be hooked up in a matter of two days. If you wish to write us, what is the postal box? (Pause) I’m not through. I’m just going through now, in the auditorium, to minister to different ones, and as you touch me, try not to pull me over, just touch, or whatever it makes faith. Whatever gives you contact with the Christ within you, or the God, or the love within you. Because I’ve seen already one of our ladies that was healed was Hindu. So you see, God is no respecter of persons. Love and healing is available to everyone, no matter what their religion, no matter what their creed. Post Office Box 893 in Guyana [Georgetown]. You can reach us if there’s anything we can do to serve you. Or in the States, it’s Peoples Temple, Post Office Box 214, Redwood Valley. We’re connected with the Disciples of Christ brotherhood of two million members. President [Lyndon] Johnson, before his d– ex– expiration, was a member of our church. And a couple of governors. People of all walks of life and all races that believe in every church being autonomous and able to follow its convictions. Just to give you that background. Peoples Temple has a children’s home on 40 acres. We have several convalescent sanitoriums, we have our own college dormitories, because we believe that the church must take care of the necessities of the saints and minister first to the household of the faith. So we educate our youth from the cradle to the transition. This young woman to my side is a student doctor. Another young man, Jewish, young man is a doctor [Larry Schacht], who’s been up in Port Kaituma. And we’re so grateful that he was up there just at the right time, because a young woman would’ve passed, if it had not been for him being there when she went into anphlactic [anaphylactic] reaction. We have been giving free medical exams all this week, and that’s the kind of missionary program we envision doing, and we would like to be able to help you. There’s some of you that wish educational uh, benefits that we have to offer. We want to work in every way possible to assist you. As I say, we take care of our senior citizens in all Peoples Temple churches, we have our own convalescent hospital, our own rest homes, our own children’s homes, our own uh, employment program. If the church is to do its duty and to stop the dangers of fanatical extremists, be they right or left, if the church is to be able to stop the inroads of totalitarian regimes, the church must do what it was instructed to do at the day of the apostles’ creed, the day of Pentecost. The church must take care of the necessities of its own people. And we hope that you will do so and work with the government in fulfilling the feeding and clothing and housing of this nation. Our hands are clasped again, let’s have another moment of waiting upon God, that there– if there’s another revelation, that it would come. (tape edit) He [Larry Schacht] left his home, his home. He was a very prominent– from prominent Jewish family, but he got caught up in the drug world, and his mind was damaged from the use of LSD. I don’t think you’re– I think you’re so blessed to not know that problem here, in Guyana. Well, he came by the church one day, and he couldn’t speak or talk. And I spoke to him, and offered him our place of residence to stay. As you know, I’ve adopted eight children, I think they told you that, and there’re many of them here, but I won’t take time to introduce all of my legally adopted children. Anyway, he is now not only healed, but he is a straight A student, young doctor. I think that’s wonderful, that’s what’s happened in those years since that time. And his liver was damaged, and he was healed. And here’s the young man, he’s been giving medical exams with me, he’s been up all night and all day. Dr. Schacht, come over, be– so we can see you. Peace.
Congregation: Applause
Jones: He will be coming– As soon as he finishes his residency, he will be coming as a missionary permanently to Guyana, and he will receive no money for his services. That’s his dedication.
Voice: Right. Right.
Congregation: Applause. Piano playing softly
Jones: Hands clasped. There’s another name coming. And I have to move– Gonzales. (Pause) Trouble in the leg. Gonzales. (Pause) Do you have a loved one named Caesar? You’ve told me nothing about your– Caesar, your son. You’ve told me nothing about your life. Let me tell you something how– that might help build your faith, because you, too, are in trouble with your heart, and your husband is in trouble in his lungs, some difficulty with his lungs. (Pause) Peace. Very quiet. As I’ve said before, I don’t know you, either. And you are suffering from a very crippled knee. Yes, I see. (Pause) May I give you something that will help your faith? (Pause) In a vanity drawer in your bedroom, you have a beaded purse and a green wallet. That’s where you would keep it, in a vanity drawer, the upper drawer. Is that correct? Now, let us work in faith. (steps away from mike) Work that knee. Work that knee. (tape edit)
Congregation: Applause. Piano playing
Singer: (unintelligible)
Jones: (joins singer) –on others thou are calling, oh, do not pass me by. Oh, savior, savior, hear my hum– (tape edit) (Speaks) –able to see even as it was there, in this woman’s drawer, it’s able to recognize things and tell you the thoughts of your mind as these are going through. It’s quite known all over the world that it’s possible to do things that are not in the realm of the three dimensions that we know, that mind can even move matter, in empirical studies in scientific laboratories. So if the scientists of both sides of the– the east and the western world, both sides of the world, are attesting to the fact that mind can achieve every kind of miracle. Dr. Flanders Dunbar, I think, prominent psychiatrist of the west, the most prominent, I– I presume. She didn’t have any particular church or faith, but she spoke of the difference, uh– many, many different case studies, where people had faith. One person would have a little cancer nodule in the breast. By the way, there’s someone now, that uh, t– talking about that. June? (Pause) June. Who is this? Back here in the back. Yes. You’ve got a nodule in your left breast? Wave your hand back and forth, so I can see you. I see you. Now (Pause) you thought, that man can’t heal those things. Is that your thought? Touch your breast, and see. Press. Press and see, the nodule will be gone. (Pause ) And go to your doctor and you’ll find it’s gone, just as I said.
Congregation: Calls.
Jones: Is it gone now? Wave your hand if it’s gone. Blessed, blessed, blessed, blessed.
Congregation: Applause.
Jones: Hands clasped, please, again. I must write down something. (tape edit) But I have to move, is it. (pause) Hands clasped, please. (tape edit) Some things that I must write you about, if you’ll allow me to do that. (pause) (tape edit) There’s something I don’t understand. I don’t hear enough to get an address, or a way to– way to reach you. I don’t have anything come to me. Things will flash before me and I don’t– and I hear– I hear something like Vandereyer. (pause) Is any name in this auditorium such as that? (pause) If you’re here, please make yourself known by wave of hand. Vande Reyer. No. I’m talking for an exact name, an exact name.
Voice: (inaudible, from audience)
Jones: Hands clasped. Bring her right to my side here, will you, please?
Voice onstage: Oh, mighty God.
Jones: Is it Lily? Billie or something, Vanderyer? Hands clasped. Hands clasped. (pause) With our hands clasped, please, each of you, like this was your sister, or your brother, or your mother or your daughter. (tape edit) –personal, I didn’t want to go into it, but she verified she had the ailment, and now she will be healed.
Voice onstage: Thank you!
Jones: Let’s grip our hands and clasp. Blessings, blessings, blessings, blessings.
Congregation: Applause. Piano playing
Singer: Thank you, pleasure.
Jones: (joins singer) Oh! (tape edit) (speaks) –down. (pause) Nurses will come through, the young doctor students will come through. We’ll do as much as we can. Always remember that you are to go to doctors. And if we can help any of you to do so, we’ll be so happy as we get our mission established because, as I said, our missionary doctors will be free. That’s the purpose of our mission here, is to give complete health care without any charge when we come.
(piano plays)
Jones: Hands clasped. (tape edit) –ame, I don’t know, this strange name, but I can’t– I can’t get whether it’s– Oh, I see. Cross? Who is Cross? Ena? Is it Ena Cross? (pause) Who is this? (pause) Ena Cross. Will you wave the hand, please? There, I can see you in the aisle, standing (tape edit) there please. I must write down some things, please. Hands clasped. (Pause) You’re a stranger to me, but I want to tell you something about your life. Did you once have a dog named Ping-Toe? Or something like that? Is that correct? Will you wave your hand? Hands clasped. (pause) Hands clasped. Keep our hands clasped together, please. (pause) (tape edit) Sister, now– I was– uh, someone else I had to speak to her about because they’ll come in on me from different points– the thoughts will come in. You have an uh, you had a– (Pause) a parrot by the name of Laura? What is it? (Pause) I can’t hear it.
Voices of audience: (several repeating name, inaudible)
Jones: Well, I could– that could be, because I’m trying to pick up– from through the mixed multitude. Hands clasped. You have no children. (pause) Is that correct? (pause) Did your mother– Did your mother suffer from high blood pressure when she was alive? Was your mother’s name Lydia? Yes, well, then she surely did.
Archie Ijames: Yes, yes.
Jones: Hands clasped. You are having difficulty around in the back and the side and the bowel region. If you will step forward, you too will receive a healing. If you’ll come by me, I think if you’ll try and go to a bathroom, if they’ll lead you to someone around here, you too will pass something, as others have passed here today, just believing, just believing,
Singer: Oh, thank you!
Jones: –and the spirit of Christ will have his way.
Singer: Oh, good God, good God, good God. Oh, my God’s done just what he said–
Jones: (joins singer) –yes he did, yes he did/ He healed the sick and he raised the dead./ Yes he did, yes he did./
Singer: He brought joy, joy, joy to my soul./ Oh, I could tell the world about this, I could tell the nation (sound punctuated by breaks) with– that– tell them my God in a body has done, and he’s brought joy, joy, joy/ Oh, our God’s done just what he said/ Yes he did, yes he did./ Healed the sick and he raises the de– (tape edit) Joy, joy, joy, to our soul. Oh–
Jones: (speaks) Now, if I can, I’ll move down these aisles, but you must– must not push us– uh, push me aside or others aside, I’ll– I’ll be led to go to you. (Pause) Your name is Isaacs, you must– (to himself) I must write that down before I forget it. (Pause)
(speaks to congregation) If your name is Ramos, please put your hand out to me and identify yourself. Ramos? I– All right, as our hands goes– as I move by, I must have liberty to speak to the nurses or the doctor students to give you instructions that you’ll need. We have to move rapidly, because church services are due to begin here in just a little while. The next service we’ll plan a bigger facility if that is the– in the plan that will be the best for Guyana, we will– ‘cause we deeply want to help the churches in this great country. One person, I don’t know whether I should mention his name, I don’t think I will, but someone in your government, I saw such love and character, f– such concern for human beings. And he picked up passerbys [passersby] in his car. And that touched me so, but that’s why I came back to Guyana. I had a whole hour with people that– you couldn’t even get s– 15 minutes with some people, if you’d wait a year, in just a moment’s (tape edit) they came in, they welcomed us in to talk about what we could do to help with the feeding and clothing and housing of this great country. So we’re deeply moved by Guyana, and we’re permanently settled now, there’re many up in Kaituma, we had a great feast there. The whole city, uh, the entire area came out, and we served a free banquet just a couple of days ago.
Voice in distance: Right!
Jones: And we’ll be doing a lot of things in Guyana. We hope that you will invite us into your lives and to share with us any ideas how we can better serve. If you want to write us in [the] States, it’s Peoples Temple, Post Office Box 214, Redwood Valley, California. Now let me move through the aisle. (tape edit) There’s a woman that came with great faith by the name of (tape edit) that sort– Rhoda. Rhoda. You must put up your hand, too, that I can reach you. Hands clasped, please. Hold this, please. (pause) Clarice Dugan or Dugan? Rhoda Hedley. Ida Asbrook? (Pause) Henry something. J – C J is the last– is the initials.
Norman Ijames: As the bishop moves through, please make a little aisle so that we can get through with the nurses who’ll be following him.
Jones: Would you allow me to move freely, and if you have faith, according to your faith, be it unto you. Let us see, what– what is a song that we could sing, it‘d be simply, as we could sing it in the background, and I will single you out and I’ll send a nurse or a doctor uh, to you, the uh– I’ll send them to you. These are all trained people in our church, because we educate all of our own youth. And whatever I feel, I’ll– I’ll send them to you. As I say, I’m not a panacea. But we’ve had great, marvelous miracles. We’ve seen every miracle that was recorded in biblical times, and some that were not recorded. Only believe, only believe. It seems this– rather than goodness, healing depends upon some kind of mystic belief. (Pause) (sings) All things are possible.
(end of side 1)
(side 2)
Jones: –to you that I’m sure about what I’m doing, and I’m sure of the operation of the power to heal, so allow me that freedom to move, and many are healed just by touching, because according to your faith, be it unto you. If you just touch, or just look, great, great miracles take place, according to your ability and mine to visualize. It has nothing to do with education. In fact, sometimes education can be a hindrance. It takes a childlike faith. So as I move up and down these aisles, it is our prayer, oh mighty God, (calls out) Oh, mighty Christ–
Archies Ijames: Oh yeah, yeah!
Jones: –that the spirit of love will touch and reach out to these beloved people of this great Guyanese republic. Reach out and heal them, and touch them, to enable them to serve and do the most important work of the gospel, to feed and to clothe, and to house, to minister to the orphans and widows in their affliction, (tape edit) stranger, and the homeless. We ask your blessings now, in the name of Christ. Amen.
Norman Ijames: Please make a aisleway so the pastor can get through. (tape edit)
Jones: –‘cause when you tell me something, it begins to– Shh! It begins to hinder my faith, when you start telling me things. So don’t tell me anything, or don’t pull me aside, because selfishness will not gain you anything, and I know how desperate we are. And as I say, that’s why I want– we must not let spiritual or physical healing be our uppermost concern. I know the desperate feeling we all have. But it’s your faith in the living God, in Christ in you, that makes things possible. Not what I do, but your faith. And we do want, if there was only one healed, or the one that we’ve seen pass the growth, or the one that was bleeding from the urine, the one that had this urological problem, or the one that was arthritic, and the woman that had the crippled knee on my right, and the one that was crippled on my left. If only those were healed! But I haven’t begun to mention those that’ve been healed already. If only one were healed in this great Catholic church today, it’d be worth our gathering here, and I’m sure if our faith is what it should be, there’ll be many more.
Archie Ijames: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Norman Ijames: Please prepare an aisleway down to the center of the auditorium. Please move to the side and let (tape edit)
Jones: –receive a thing. The teachings of Christ, or Krishna, Buddha, Gautama Buddha, Mahatma Gandhi, all the great teachers, the master teachers and the saviour, Jesus Christ, taught self-denial. Deny ourselves. Personally I never seek healing. That’s always been my answer, and I’ve had wonderful healings, but I never seek healing. I seek to serve. And when we deny ourself, then things happen. This is a sweet attitude, and you’ve received a healing. This sister didn’t push. She didn’t say me a word– tell me a word. But you have a bad heart. You also had trouble in your female region. And you’re going to be healed today, because you came, and your faith, and your humbleness–
Woman: Amen! Amen.
Jones: –and your honesty has made you whole.
Woman: Hallelujah.
Singers: Only believe, only believe (tape edit)
Jones: –healed of an incurable ailment, because she listened. Now please, let me move through with my medical team. And you touch me. I’m coming back, I know definitely I’ll be here for– uh, for services Easter week, and I may be here earlier. I’ll be coming several times a year, and one day, I hope to settle in this great land. Because I love Guyana. Bless you. And according to your faith, be it unto you.
Singer: Only be– (tape edit)
Jones: –because you were gentle and kind. And that was why you’re healed. Another healing– But every time you push and shove, you will not be able to get what you’re looking for. I have to see the names that I called. I don’t mind if you pull on my clothes, but if you do– if you do, you’ll miss what you are do– what you want to receive. The– The cord will have to go up over our heads. (pause) We have to have a line. (pause) (tape edit) This Indian sister–
Singer: (softly) Only believe–
Jones: –will be healed because her faith, her love.
Singer: (softly) – only believe–
Jones: Blessings.
(End Part 1)
Part 2:
(Note on Part 2: The balance of the tape consists of a strategy discussion which Jim Jones held with several of his leaders. The fact that the recording quality is poor, that numerous people talk over each other, and that there is at least one speaker – possibly two – with thick Guyanese accents, mean that much of it is incomprehensible. The transcript which follows reflects the portions which the transcriber and the reviewer can verify. With that in mind, we invite anyone who can recognize additional dialogue in this part of the tape to submit it to this website.)
Voices: (too soft) (tape edit)
Jones: Let it be known, that we were here by the invitation of the government so they’ll do some checking before they decide to run a negative article. I think that’s fair to (unintelligible) the government has some control of (unintelligible word) of those papers now.
Male: OK.
Jones: Don’t you think? What do you think?
Indistinct voices: Yeah.
Male: Yep. I agree.
(pause)
Jones: I was– I was– I was– I was here before Dr. [Ptolemy] Reid in, (unintelligible sentence) we were in from the invitation of Dr. Reid, and– or, I don’t know, at the invitation of the government, that’s (unintelligible words) at the invitation of the government (unintelligible)
Archie Ijames: Ah.
Male: The only thing is– The only thing is, is that I think we have to say it in the way that avoids the connotation that the– the meeting itself, the religious aspect was at the connotation of the government, because the PM’s always putting down religion, you know, he’s sarcastices the government (unintelligible)
Jones: The only reason (unintelligible word) he’s sarcastic, is what you’re saying?
Male: Well, wish I could remember exactly what he (unintelligible)
Male: Yeah, Yes, ‘cause like now, your Bible says. Not our bible, but your Bible says–
(unintelligible exchanges)
Jones: (unintelligible) two people, they’re hurting. Over the weekend, what– what was it there? When we were up there?
Male: It was uh, (unintelligible) in Matthews Ridge. Very definitely, it was.
Male: It was.
Male: Huh?
Male: It was. Yeah.
Jones: Wish you guys (unintelligible) that’s what I need to hear, is the whole ti– side of the story. One moment he’s sarcastic, another moment he’s pro, so– (pause) Prime Minister.
Female: Oh, I didn’t–
Mike Prokes: Yeah, I think he might be usin’ it still as– as a tool while not being caught up in it himself. Uh–
Jones: He’s not caught up (unintelligible) I want– I wanna find out what he’s doin’. I’ve come in there twice for a meeting (unintelligible, trails off) he, he’s referred to us as, ah, ahh–
Richard Tropp: Today there was a group there from the Assemblies of God who made the same comment about the government– they– uh, the guy said uses the word Christ uh, too sarcas– uh, sarcas– sarcastically. That’s not serious– he’s not serious about it. They were very negative of the Assemblies of God people–
Archie Ijames: The very fact that he uh–
Jones: Are they Indian or black?
Tropp: No, they were– they were East– yeah, East Indian.
(unintelligible exchanges)
Jones: Huh?
Male: (unintelligible) means that he’s not uh, very– very religious.
Jones: I know he’s not, but I wonder what he’s aiming at, you know. I’ve got to find out what the man’s aiming at. We’ve got to know what his strategy is. We’ve got a lot of power, too. That’s if he’s (stumbles over words) legalizing, obey, obie–
Archie Ijames: Obeah.
Jones: Obay. Obeah, yeah. So we need to get the sucker. We need to tell him that the government– we’ve met with the government on a high level. On a high level, that we’re here, we were– our agricultural mission was here on the invitation of the uh, Guyanese government. So these suckers don’t walk within our article, we’ve got a Catholic sister’s being very sar– sarcastic already, going around making smart remarks. So uh, we need to have some means of response to that. And I’ve got one in an interview with me, I don’t know if that’s entirely proper, uh– or an interview with two of these, couple or three calls, and say the pastor had been there to meet you. He would– he said he would meet with you, he’s sorry we didn’t get to you. Are there any other questions you might have? He goes back today.
Archie Ijames: They’ll ask you– they’ll ask me uh, point blank who in government, not some (unintelligible) without saying whose name it is and you know (unintelligible) and all the various ministers name of our project, and–
Jones: You say, all the various ministers, yeah, and –
Archie Ijames: –we have been well received, well received, everywhere.
Jones: Well, then, who’s going to meet– meet this, because this is a touchy baby tomorrow. (Pause) I don’t want one person, I don’t want one person doin’ it–
Terry: I’d say Mike Prokes, Paula Adams, and Karen Layton.
Jones: You got all, you got no blacks in there–
(voices)
Male: John Brown.
Adams: John Brown.
Archie Ijames: And uh– and we should not prejudice our base, and our, our–
Jones: Norman {Ijames}, I’d say Norman. I’d say Norman. J– uh, J– John’s good on P.R., but you embellish too much. Someway, you embellish. Uh, today I don’t see it, but I don’t know what you– what you said, but there was something. That’s what got her shook up– Huh?
Prokes: He said, that uh, would you clear the doorway? Because there’s still hundreds outside, and– .
Jones: Yeah. That– that was– I– I– I thought, hundreds outside, man, what’re you doin’? Who told you there’s hundreds outside? (pause)
Voices: John Brown? John Brown isn’t here.
Jones: He isn’t here, huh? (unintelligible word) Sixteen blocks away. (unintelligible)
Archie Ijames: And also, this thing about um, the uh, it could be a prophecy–
Voice: Turns out– (unintelligible word)
Archie Ijames: It could be a bit of prophecy in the rain. See when the– when he’s involved with the laymen, it’s gonna pour down rain.
Jones: What’s he said what he said? He said what?
Archie Ijames: He uses the night before the rain, as it, and then– then he uses it to think if you are of prophetic capacity, the fact that it’s pour down rain, just as it (unintelligible word) something couldn’t come in, or just would pour down rain, think of your prophetic capacity, well uh– but as the layman would of seen, they would have seen it, if it’s pour down rain, I’ll ask for rain. And you say, you have company. So, so let in there with–
Jones: He uh– he don’t consult before he steps forward. And that’s what I don’t like. I– I can’t, I can’t have that –
Adams: Norman told him to tell it.
Jones: Huh?
Male: He said Norman told him to tell it.
Archie Ijames: Told him to say that? Why didn’t you tell him about that?
(hubbub of voices, unintelligible)
Jones: Proph– Proph– Prophecy was made, of course. (Pause) Prophecy was made, whether you say it or not.
Archie Ijames: I understand. (pause)
Jones: Did Joy and David enjoy their trip? Just like we did in the Sacramento Bee. Say well, we– we don’t uh, believe in God. And that’s my (unintelligible), don’tgo overboard that way. We made one mistake. Sacramento Bee wrote up a very good article about our healings, and just said we don’t believe in God. That don’t help us none.
Male: I hate to interrupt with this, but I gotta get going (unintelligible) all that luggage off the boat.
(voices, unintelligible–) (tape edit)
Adams: We don’t have absolute (unintelligible word) We have a provisional lease–
(tape edit)
Jones: –around this. Who you can go to? Tell them the problem, what we got. He’s got an in– interest in the– in his work, due to the sacrifice of somebody, so find out what– what uh, he suggests. If we can’t just go ahead and give our plan ourselves
Male: Jim, may I be excused?
Jones: Yes. yes.
Male: I hate to leave now, I really do –
Jones: Who’s goin’ with you? [Tom] Grubbs?
Prokes: Grubbs?
(unintelligible voices, distant)
Guyanese male: (Patois) I think you told her what today it, let me pass. She will probably be able to sort ‘em. I don’t see any reason why the CIA’s here. The United States is a country and the (unintelligible) to the states, for example, medical attention, so, I don’t see it in carried out throughout the world for long, I mean, I could be wrong but I don’t see anything.
Adams: What if he comes back?
Guyanese: Huh?
Adams: When will he be back (fades off)
Guyanese: I don’t have the foggiest idea (emphatically).
(pause) (mixed voices, brief snatches of indistinct conversation, people moving around.)
Jones: – both these newpapers are governmental-owned, aren’t they now?
Guyanese official: My (unintelligible) right here, (noises near mic). Uh, do you want to be present? You want to know? You want to get in touch with the editor of the (unintelligible name)?
(several unintelligible exchanges)
Jones: You know we had a big meeting here today, and packed Sacre– Sacred Heart. Packed it out– out into the outer lawn, and we want to maybe, we want to express the (unintelligible word) of our Agricultural Mission so they won’t just emphasize the church aspects alone.
Guyanese official: Well, that would– that’d be best done by (emphatic) talkin’. Don’t worry yourselves. You gotta, (unintelligible) do, let me get the right people here to get it done. When you want to talk with him?
(pause)
Unknown female: When d’you want to talk to him? He can get the right people to get it done.
Jones: You that are in journalism, there, ought to talk to him. You’re as–
Adams: You– you left it open.
Guyanese: If he’d a give you audience, you open (unintelligible name), he’s a man in charge of this situa–
(unintelligible exchange)
Jones: That’s right/ You know what? We don’t want an article based on religion right now. I don’t think we do! We want it in the context of what we’re expected to do. The agricultural mission– they were very impressed about some of the things we achieved today, some of the healings that were achieved, but that’s not– that’s not why we’re in Guyana. We’re here to help with the uh, (pause) food, clothing and housing program.
(long pause)
(low unintelligible exchanges)
Jones: As I understand it, the uh, only thing’s holding us up is that agro-economist is forced, to (stumbles over words) build with something, the government will have something to acknowledge. Is that correct?
Guyanese: Has anybody spoken to the (unintelligible) and his son?
Jones: Yep. I’m going in– I’m going in tomorrow. But I’d like to have a little background, rather than show myself to be an ignoramus, which I am at this point.
Guyanese: (Laughs)
Jones: Uh– do you have, I have a meeting with him at 9 o’clock tomorrow, Mr. [Gavin] Kennard. But, I want to know what we’re doing, and what– what is our holdup. Also, why on, why has our church not been incorporated? What’s the reason for that? Mr. [Eugene] Chaikin at the meeting, Paula– why hasn’t our church –
Guyanese: Ah. You have uh, time Tuesday?
Adams: Yes.
Guyanese: That is not to work, even if he change his (unintelligible)? Mark and Martin.
Adams: Eric and Martin. The other (unintelligible), and for a very simple reason, is he–
Jones: He told me that before. I’m told that you work with (unintelligible name) before.
Guyanese: Because, uh, as far as I know, Guaranty was a good corporation lawyer, (unintelligible name) so tenable for his integrity of our position, to what length, that state we are in. He is important, responsible for how the government it would take us without an internationalizations, at the time. And whenever there is a– a time for a dividend to the state, this program has to pay our con– for the activists’ proposal out the property. See? He’s got (unintelligible), and goes to Canada to do that business. So, when he has that to do, the Caymans are closed, and he know cooperation (unintelligible). Don’t operate as an (unintelligible word), it’s not in a form, like he gives us the briefs to somebody else. He lets it wait until you come back. In– In other words, you’re not printin’ the brief.
Adams: But–
Guyanese: And if I were in his place, I wouldn’t print it, either. I’d go out and drink bon port, and then, come out, in the shore (unintelligible).
Adams: What do you think of– of uh, changing right now?
Guyanese: I don’t know what the position would be. He might be definable to stay out of that country, it could be ethical or not professional, I don’t know. What is– what is Clarence telling you about the incorporation, about the– about the state of delay. In other words, have you seen anything in the official digest saying that it’s late, before filing it?
Adams: They just sent it back for the last correction before it goes to into the (unintelligible), and it’s not supposed to go through, but how long does–
Guyanese: Now let me get into the officials on about that, too. Because it’s just a practically received. Because these things are automatic. They get the letter, placed with some member of the house, of Parliament, to propose it, probably one of the junior members of the house, and it goes to all (unintelligible word) at that time. This is the longest waiting period. But this is only one more correction for it to get into the– (unintelligible) got there before. Once you get into the directory, at least in Parliament and then it’s relatively easy to present. But uh, how long is it since you briefed Clarence, too, for the incorporation?
Adams: From the very start? Or–
Guyanese: Yes, how long is it been?
Adams: Since last February.
Guyanese: Nah. That long.
Male: That’s too long, man.
Jones: But Dr. Reid, every report what we get back is most sympathetic, verbally.
Guyanese: Mmm.
Jones: But what I can’t get (unintelligible word), with a half a million dollars already poured in– into this program. I’ve got to know what I’m doing.
(unintelligible exchanges)
Guyanese: This question of the– of these– farm (unintelligible), I’m– I won’t commit myself at this time, because you’re going to find when you speak to the present minister, that he has a different outlook to Dr. Reid. Now when–
Jones: What– what do you mean?
Guyanese: Well, about the formalities, you know, on procedures involvement. Uh, Dr. Reid’s general attitude is to proceed on logic and see. In other words, if– if he was satisfied with what he saw, at Kaituma, he would say go ahead and assume (unintelligible) on the basis of what you are saying.
Jones: So–
Guyanese: Whilst he was satisfied that way, and even if he didn’t see it forcefully (unintelligible) anybody for a report, honest. It means that he was going to be prepared to ask for what you told him.
Jones: Mm-hmm [Yes].
Guyanese: Provided there was no objection from you. If for the sake of argument, (unintelligible name) said that he didn’t take the pictures for (unintelligible). You know.
Jones: (unintelligible) was in the service today, very impressed I guess. (unintelligible)
Guyanese: Ah! And if you tell him that that is not an accurate report, what (unintelligible name) is saying is not an accurate report, well, then I think Dr. Reid would go to see for himself. But if what (same name) was quoted to him, reported what he said, he would get to see, and if you believe, pending the arrival or the formation of this plan, bearing in mind that you gave it to local party to do, and you also gave it to the only agricultural economist we have in the ministry! We don’t have any other, that’s the only one. He is the only partner.
Jones: Man not down there–
Guyanese: Nobody else.
Jones: We’ve given operation.
Guyanese: Yes, he’s the only partner that you do have. Uh, well, (Clears throat) And that is the reason why I suggested that the report should be made to him, if the chief agricultural officer is insisting on this farm plan.
Jones: Well, today we had a number of instances, we had hundreds and hundreds of people there, about, it was up to 2,000 people all around the place. Uh, do we have the– Our people found themselves in the position of defending the government a considerable time. Do you think the government is (unintelligible word), the last time they (unintelligible word) safe still, they admit the government is safe.
Guyanese: I don’t think he got any doubts about that.
Jones: And wouldn’t they not want people who are productive as we, for the government, up in the Northwest District? If I understand that, it’ll be revert– it’ll even revert to Venezuela, if there aren’t so many uh, people settled there. I– I think that’s–
Guyanese: Yes. Yeah, well from from the point of view of state political expediency alone, it’s (unintelligible) nonproductive. (unintelligible) Remember that one of the basic foundations of the Venezuelan creed. They no longer fight to back up the finding of the international court, or the arbitration model at the time when the award was made. They go– They go on a different tack at this time. They are saying that we are willing and ready and able to develop this disputed territory. No, we’re not just speaking about the Northwest District, we’re speaking up to the left bank of the Essequibo River, (unintelligible) see? And, you are free. They accept it already in the United Nations, you’re free to set (unintelligible), to see the difference between Venezuela on the left bank of the (unintelligible name) and Guyana on the right bank. They made then that they have made development on their side and we have nothing here. (pause) Well, our answer to that of course is that, so– As a matter of fact, I start in on warning you now, preliminary thoughts on this particular matter. Because I have some knowledge of the area, both sides. And I said that, if we are to sleep at all, we must first agree on a basic principle, and that is that, one, the center for comparison is a high degree of similarity. If similarity doesn’t exist, they creating no basis for comparison, just contrast.
Jones: Mm-hm.
Guyanese: So, as far as economic ability to develop it (unintelligible) no comparison between Guyana and Venezuela. We’re not (pause) crying over the fact that we don’t have oil here, but what we are saying is that if we did, we probably could better at interior development than they do. Well, that is one of the things that we advance– finally (unintelligible phrase) advance in the 1980s against the Venezuelan army. Until then, it’s not being brought again. But, a politician must always seem to fall back to (unintelligible word). And that is the reason why (unintelligible), Union Carbide, or– decided to pull out of Matthews Ridge. I myself, and a minority reporter was hired by the government at that time, to see what could be done about continuing operations in the mine. I have to explain to them that Union Carbide – for a fee – controls both the price and the property of manganese for (unintelligible). In other words, we’ll get United States Steel, or get DMR, these are smaller subsidiary companies we get ignored by, if Union Carbide says no. And that is obviously what will happen. We don’t have the (unintelligible word) expertise, and we do not have the follow up capital, the continuing operation of this is (unintelligible) manganese. When you’re talking also (unintelligible balance of sentence) So we don’t have that. So as far as the mine is concerned, that is out. Nobody asks any quarter– for any quarter information, but (unintelligible word) a political lever, to keep that play going, as a– as a– a good industrial concept. And as I said it has been a– a– an object of deficit financing from the word go. You take a big flight out of all the (unintelligible word) budget everything you hear of that and you just put precisely that reason that you need to do. (unintelligible sentence). In terms of agriculture productivity (unintelligible) what has been put into that area is three years old. You know. A person in the government, in politics, could never admit that because that would be tantamount to heresy, but I don’t have to (unintelligible).
(general laughter).
Guyanese: Be the wrong people in the wrong place at the wrong time.
(several other voices murmur acknowledgement)
Guyanese: So, if you have a group like yours that are obviously within the space of time, the relation, uh, their investments. I do not know – it may be so – but I fortunately do not know of any similar that society–
Joned: No.
Guyanese: –in this country or in any of the other countries in South America over the scale of time, taking into consideration the lack of experience, you know, the– the time factor for outside (unintelligible word), of making local contact, (unintelligible word) differential in– in spending half a million dollars in any developmental program that has to deal with agriculture. You must immediately have very conservative estimates as a result – at least 22 percent – for what we call the experience account. Not necessarily any money after you waste it, but buying X when the real thing that you should have bought was Y. (unintelligible word) between all of that you have to write down. (unintelligible) operations here. Lemme cut a long story short. What you are being able to do in the space of time that you will be here, is hundreds of percentage points better than anything that any state operation, organization, with the agronomists, the plant pathologists, the economists and (unintelligible) and the foreigners where you (trails off). And you won’t have to take my word for it, because you don’t need to be an expert. So what you have seen, what you have done, is take your time at Kaituma. All you have to do to (unintelligible) in my assessment, is stay (unintelligible word) go over last week, at the (unintelligible) hearing, say why the state farm must be (unintelligible) and pay all the state farmers’ designation. Also have to run all over Guyana to see, as you will see, and when you go before the (unintelligible) how long have you been on it? You see? That’s all. So. Insofar as that operation is – and I don’t think that there’ll be anybody who can – if you are of unbiased opinion about the progress that has been made so far, taking all the factors that I have mentioned into consideration, I– I’m– I’m not saying that you did well– it just can be–
Jones: Well, I’ll be back. Compared to what I’ve seen, certainly, we’ve got a lot of property over there and compared to what I see. It’s not like I woulda liked to had it done by our own vision, but compared to what’s happening, as you say, I think you said it very accurately, as I’ve always found you to be, we are doing more than these– any of the uh, (unintelligible word) that I’ve seen.
Guyanese: And let’s not– not, you see, this is the thing that the doctor understands, that– that this bureaucracy does not (unintelligible). That right (unintelligible) farm plan for acreages above a certain, you know, uh, level or something that will challenge a commitment, say, when they were writing it into the regulations, and the minority will challenge it, including myself, challenge it on the grounds that it would visit a certain class of people with (unintelligible word) that they couldn’t readily handle. In other words, making the granting of the lease entirely dependent on an acceptable farm plan on paper. Because it could produce two types of people: Who would get access to land– state lands by lease. On the one, you could have the (unintelligible word), who is sincere and hard working, but who did not have easy access. Couldn’t start a farm plan, but that their farm will accept trying a (unintelligible word).
Jones: That’s our–
Guyanese: If– if you saw some of the projections and plans to (unintelligible) (laughs) –the relations to what we are asking to (unintelligible sentence) cocktail but you too (unintelligible word) forever.
(laughter and unintelligible exchanges)
Guyanese: No, but if you didn’t know– You know, if– if you– if you didn’t have the skepticism of experiences I have, and know what actually happened in relation to what was said would happen there, you know, you would say that this is forfeiture of, you know, the stage is slow, one into the other, you know? So nothin’! I mean, it’s (unintelligible word). But it doesn’t happen that way. It never does. You know. All this planning. You say, look, look, 50 acres of this? Is around one kind, pathologist, an agricultural engineer, an agronomist, an entymologist, and a field manager. See? Five. All good people for that (unintelligible word) and with these people you will do this, and you will do that, and you will do that, and you will do that. And all those people are qualified, but they have no capacity to participate. (unintelligible).
Archie Ijames: I know–
Guyanese: You know. And they find that, they have the rice imports, the side crop is not really not suitable. (unintelligible word) was the wrong one, he should have got some from North Africa instead of Venezuela, you know. Every single person sitting down to write a memo to exculpate himself from the blame (unintelligible under laughing) debacle, right? And then, last but not least, everybody (unintelligible sentence)– Our right to work.
Archie Ijames: I know–
Guyanese: So it’s just isn’t ready on paper. And the same thing that was in the acreage remains (unintelligible). See? They figure it (stretches out word) all out. (unintelligible word) But they don’t have any reasoning like, Act of God, natural disaster or nothing in there is– and I don’t agree with it.
Jones: Do you see any problems that– that they would change what they have given us, verbal assurance that we will be accepted? Because I– I have to know. We’ve got a great deal of wealth at stake in the States, (unintelligible word), are channeling more and more of it here. I like Guyana. Naturally we are a cosmopolitan, interracial group, it’s better for us. Is there any– By the way, do you see– you see, our government coming to uh, any kind of confrontation with this government over such things as rentals, uh, things changing here anymore.
Guyanese: Not at all, (unintelligible word) affect anything you’re doing.
Jones: That– that’s what I wanted to know. I thought you–
Guyanese: I have. On the other question, I am really not a (unintelligible word), qualified to answer that, uh, because I do not have access to (pause) inner sanctum, which is the political center here, this (unintelligible)
(laughs)
Guyanese: (unintelligible sentence)
(laughs)
Guyanese: That could answer that question, is the man that you’re gonna speak to tomorrow. I do not think that you ask– a per–
Jones: He’s very friendly, he’s very friendly, affable, but you know–
Guyanese: Well, but you don’t need anybody friendly–
Jones: I, uh, I, I, –
Guyanese: –as the time pass, (unintelligible sentence) you can get as many friends as you want, I’ll treat you as one, depending on how much you are prepared to do for any of them! Everyone is like that! (unintelligible)
(general laughter).
Guyanese: What have you prepared to do for him? I don’t have any fear that somebody like Doctor Reid will do what he is telling you. Because he doesn’t say anything that he doesn’t mean. That’s all. If he isn’t sure about the-–
(several unintelligible exchanges)
Becky Beikman: They dealt with him long ago.
Archie Ijames: I want to ask you one– one important question, another time that you mentioned what happened in (unintelligible name), and I’ve had a– a deep concern about what’s gonna happen, in terms of, in terms of bauxite, because if they got a plan worked out, or if some sort of alternative, an expensive alternative?
Guyanese: Where’s this– That’s not a serious problem, with bauxite. For three reasons. The first is that the demand is much higher than the supply. Now you can get away with a lotta lotta forced equality when that condition exists. The second is that the projections on this demand, in relation to supply, is fairly constant, fairly constant and for the foreseeable future. And the third is that local people have worked at the key positions in the bauxite industry. Remember! In an industry like bauxite, the key position is not necessarily the decision-making level. Our problem is to have you– you can make the decisions at the operatin’ level. Rather (unintelligible word) and local forces suggesting their decision-making structure. (unintelligible sentence) And the only reason for that was (unintelligible word)
Archie Ijames: Sure.
Guyanese: So that is a reality which you have to see. Our (unintelligible phrase) started very late to do it, too late! And by and large, uh, the predictions that were made to the local bauxite concern have not come to pass. The Jeremiahs have been proven to be wrong. The operation that we (unintelligible word) run, is not as complex as you (unintelligible). And if you do it (unintelligible word) right now will mean that a lotta people would have died at field supervisor levels will get a chance to get to staff level. And you’ll probably get a better crop of operators there as a result of this here, then you would have known about if they were allowed to remain at that one level. So if you don’t, if they– if they do– if– I have told them, that they did not (pause) look at this natural (unintelligible phrase) to with that in mind, forget about it. That is what you must believe. That is what you have to make happen. Don’t let somebody call anybody home from Canada or United States (unintelligible word) when let us operate on what we have here now. Because the behavior of the (unintelligible phrase, could be “Palestinians and Israelis”) is a constant. Everybody knows horrible those in (unintelligible phrase)? You know how it started. (unintelligible sentence) The one uncertain factor is the human element, that is what we have to look at. If we see, that we– what we have (unintelligible word), and the people who remain there promoted the starting position, can run that operation within a year or two, (unintelligible phrase) get accustomed to the new way of doing things, and we can make a whole way? OK. Otherwise than that? (unintelligible word) will go away. But you see that again, is– is– it’s not the politicians’ outlook. That is ground sort of talk as far as–
Jones: There’s a couple of questions I just need to get to because I figure you’re a man of great expertise and information. The factory we’re concerned about, the newspaper, some reporter there, a little fundamentalist, he’s seemed to be friendly overall, but he wanted to question us on theology. We’re very broad, we have several people there which is most threatening. As that one person said, will this even be threatening– one person suggested it would even be threatening to the government? But I think they were with the opposition party, we had such a mass following. Well, I can’t see that that would be threatening, but we’re– they’re defending the government, every– every turn of the road, I would think they’d be most happy about that experience. But this one little reporter might go back with his, uh, fundamentalist version, give us some bad press, unless we move on it. We never have any bad press, and we need to– we need to move on it, and stop it – a stitch in time saves nine – and uh, I think we uh– he seemed to be overly– over– overtly impressed. But uh, I just thought we need to get the right people. It’s hardly likely with government-controlled papers, that they’re going to go too opp– uh, too much in opposition to anything that is relating effectively to the country, wouldn’t you think?
Guyanese: I don’t see much of a problem there. I agree that uh, in the situation in that being put –
Jones: (unintelligible)
Guyanese: (unintelligible sentence) you know, that can be done.
Jones: No, no, there will be bad press. It’s just the– just the–
Guyanese: (unintelligible sentence) There’s nothing wrong with that. On the other questions, I say, you tell Minister Kennard just what you told me. And let him see your own position. You know, the one thing hinges on the other. You can’t get one without the other.
Jones: Well, who should we call about the news– newspaper? Because the one down there–
Guyanese: I think that on the Chronicle you should get Tom Harper (unintelligible for several sentences)
(mixed voices, unintelligible)
Guyanese: Well, while you got everybody, so now we getting Henry Harpo–
Jones: Harper?
Guyanese: What? As far as the Graphic [newspaper] is concerned, I’m out of touch there. (unintelligible sentence)
Buford: Monte Smith?
Guyanese: Yeah. I– I wrote it down there. Now, I’m– I’m– I’m trying to find out what is the best way to arrange this (unintelligible).
Jones: I uh– See anything wrong with my instructions, put it in. I would go to the– to state that we want, I would put more of an emphasis upon what we’re doing in the agricultural (unintelligible) mission, which is considerable, (unintelligible) thirty different crops growing that I saw, and that uh, some of the reporters were by, we appreciate their friendliness, uh, we just want– uh, we were here at the invitation of Dr. Reid, and by the government, and uh, just chat. No one attempts to be censorous of the press, but uh, I don’t want them to get off on theological (unintelligible word) because we have the– some people said we had the largest crowd they’d ever seen, and we need to get their opinion at the time, which I think we’re not– We’re going to avoid that, we’re not even incorporating as a church, unfortunately, I didn’t take any offering for the agricultural mis– mission. Uh, I just suggested, if people want to give any money, to send it to the school of agriculture here. (unintelligible word). So we have taken no money. The church was pouring thousands and thousands of dollars into this country. But I think you– so– you solidified my thought and given me the affirmation that I wanted. But tomorrow I’m going to present my dilemma to the Minister of Agriculture, we have to have something here–
Guyanese: (unintelligible sentence) at the embassy, and then, before they, uh– make the press release, uh, you will probably have left by then. But I’ll get the, uh, the copy of what you said (unintelligible) printed to it – you know, your people here saw (unintelligible).
Male: (unintelligible)
Guyanese: (unintelligible phrase) That’s the advantage of living in a small, backwards country.
(loud laughter)
Guyanese: (unintelligible phrase)
Buford: You mean today? You mean, uh, stop it today?
Guyanese: Well, I don’t know.
Buford: –‘cause it’s running tomorrow, so–
Guyanese: I don’t know what they are, printing today, but I can stop that. (unintelligible phrase) he will call back– see if he–
Mixed voices: Great! I– it looked like it was– d’you know what?
(End of tape)