[Editor’s notes: This transcript is part of a special report by the November 18 Project. The table of contents for the report is here.]
[This is a transcript of the notes made in 1979 by the Staff Investigative Group of the House Committee on Foreign Affairs on the NBC videotapes it received from the FBI. The article describing these tapes appears here. The pdf of the notes appears here; the difference between the pdf and the transcript below is that the transcript has been edited to arrange the pages in numerical order.
[An identification of the people named in these notes appears here.]
NBC Film Footage: FBI Tape #3
1. Footage of Concerned Relatives leaving San Francisco
2. Footage of Congressman Ryan, Jackie Speier, and Jim Schollaert boarding plane in New York.
3. Ryan on plane talking with some Concerned Relatives explaining the distinction between the Concerned Relatives Mission and the Congressional Inquiry and explaining that the Concerned Relatives are not a part of the official Codel.
Steve Katsaris says that the Concerned Relatives understand the distinction.
Ryan questions the inaccessibility of the Jonestown compound and recognizes Jones hostility towards the Concerned Relatives.
4. Ryan and Concerned Relatives and the media at the Pegasus Hotel looking at the petition from the PT saying that they don’t want to have them come to Jonestown. Ryan says that there is a somewhat hostile attitude on the part of PT. Ryan explains that Schollaert has gone to Lamaha Gardens to speak to Sharon Amos but that Amos wasn’t in. He feels that it is a tactic of PT to delay and that Ryan intends to speed up the process.
Ryan explains that he spoke with the Foreign Minister [Rashleigh Jackson] about Foreign Affairs and that the Minister extended GOG’s welcome to the group.
Ryan also explains to the Concerned Relatives the conversation he had with the Ambassador [John Burke]. Ambassador wants out of the middle.
Ryan says that there has been resistance to a simple request to see the relatives and people in Jonestown. Ryan commends the self control and patience of the Concerned Relatives – Ryan didn’t think that if he was in the same position that he would have as much.
Ryan says that by Saturday he should have a better idea about the attitude of PT and changes in that attitude and then it might be to the advantage of the Concerned Relatives to stay if they can get in.
Sherwin Harris says that the PT told them that they had to see the Ambassador to get into Jonestown.
Ryan feels that the Ambassador thinks it is a private situation between Concerned Relatives and PT. Ryan says that he is absolutely non-committal and that he sees the great emotional strain between PT and Concerned Relatives. He will listen to both sides. He feels that the PT made unreasonable demands on the Codel and Ryan won’t abide by them. Reasonable demands like time and numbers Ryan will listen to.
Ryan discusses his meeting with the Ambassador. Ryan says that he is not sure he agrees with the Ambassador’s interpretation of the Privacy Act and Freedom of Information Act. Ryan looked at slides of Jonestown taken by DCM [Embassy Deputy Chief of Mission Richard Dwyer]. Slides were impressive – Ryan didn’t see too many people but was impressed by the nature of the construction and how they cleared the lands
5. Don Harris interview of Jim Cobb in Georgetown, Guyana. Cobb hasn’t seen his family in a long time and wants to see if they are alive. Was worried because of the letter sent to Congressional members saying that they would rather die than be harassed from country to country. Fears the mass suicide threat.
Cobb was a member of PT for 6 years. He knows that to test people that Jones would order a mass suicide and Cobb would have done it at the time.
The petition that the Concerned Relatives and Congressman Ryan received in Guyana…people were forced to sign the petition under the authority of Jones… the petition mentions something about the political attitude towards Chile and Cobb knows that his family would know nothing of the political attitude towards Chile in the US.
Cobb uses the word “church” in quotes. He thought that PT had humanitarian ideas and ideals and thought that it was going to do something good… the end justified the means. Cobb believes that he was brainwashed.
Cobb doesn’t think that Jones will change his mind about letting people into Jonestown. Cobb only wants to talk to his family and he can’t understand why the word is that much of a weapon…if it isn’t why can’t he get in.
Cobb believes that face to face his family will have to admit what is right and what is wrong.
Cobb left the PT because blacks were being misused and were not really involved in the leadership of PT. Jones ate steak while the others were rationed. Things like carrying an afro comb were offensive to the whites and punished. Cobb saw Jones appoint people to whip and beat people. Cobb was attracted because of humanitarian reasons and learned that PT wasn’t what he thought that it was. People were denied sleep.
PT is not a “church” – Jones threw and stomped on the Bible; Because PT was “religious” Jones could do things behind closed doors.
Cobb believes that there are armed guards in Jonestown and that his family could not leave if they wanted to.
Concerned Relatives are pursuing an opportunity to talk to Ambassador Burke.
NBC Film Footage: FBI Tape #4
1. Media in the Ministry of Education, Mr. [Vincent] Teekah.
Mr. Teekah visited Jonestown to check out the school system. Jonestown operating a school on their own. He explained to Jones that it was against the laws of Guyana to operate a private school. It appeared that they were doing a fine job preparing their children; the system appeared impressive and the teachers were interested in children.
There was an understanding that PT would be brought into GOG school system (Gaseted). Jonestown school is officially a GOG school. The step is to bring Guyanese teachers into the Jonestown system. After that they ultimately want the head teacher in Jonestown to be a Guyanese teacher and Guyanese children to go to the school.
He felt that the children were well cared for and enthusiastic and happy. He didn’t see any guns and he did speak with Jones. Jones said that he was happy to be Teekah’s friend. The school population is about 120. Jonestown is secluded from the rest of the area.
Continually in his interview Teekah reminded reporters that he was there only for two hours and his impressions were only for the period that he was there.
2. Footage of the Ambassador talking with the Concerned Relatives outside the Embassy. Ambassador told the Concerned Relatives that he would prefer a candid exchange without the press. Ambassador claimed that sensitive and legal considerations were involved.
After meeting Katsaris said that the Concerned Relatives sympathized with the Ambassador’s situation – American citizens on private property. The Ambassador would not help because he could not help.
3. Don Harris interview with Steve Katsaris in Georgetown, Guyana. Katsaris says that PT has had a character assassination campaign going on the people who are opposed to the Temple…has called them arsonists and terrorists and homosexuals and child molesters.
The Concerned Relatives have no legal right to visit Jonestown and PT has said that the members do not want to see their relatives.
Despite the legal implications they will get into see their relatives.
NBC Film Footage: FBI Tape #5
1. Ryan party leaving from Timeri [Timehri] Airport.
2. Aerial photos of Jonestown from plane
3. Arrival at the Port Kaituma airstrip. Corporal [Emil] Rudder said that he received his orders not to let them land three days ago. The group was not yet in violation of Guyanese laws. Ryan speaks to Rudder. Rudder says that he would have to get instructions from his chief superior officer in Matthews Ridge. PT orders would have gone to Matthews Ridge.
These officers are neutral. They were asked not to allow these people to enter Jonestown. Rudder suggests that the Ryan party contact Jonestown.
4. Film Footage in Jonestown, Guyana.
Mrs. Cobb. she gets satisfaction from helping the children at the free clinic. She intends to go back to the US but loves it in Jonestown.
Mrs. Oliver and sons William and Bruce.
Friday night entertainment – very elaborate. Jones says that he paid $37,000 for Jonestown.
Ryan’s speech Friday night: “… at least we are friends to this extent. We are glad to be here. This is a Congressional inquiry to find out about questions that have been raised about your operation but there is one thing that I can tell you, for some people I have talked to this is the best thing that ever happened to them in their whole lives… (Long applause)… I feel terrible that you can’t vote in San Mateo … this work is important to me…”
NBC Film Footage: FBI Tape #6
1. Jones and John Victor Stoen. Jones says that it is the teeth profile that proves John Victor is his son.
2. Pictures of entering Jonestown on Saturday. On the tour given to the media they are told that there is one staff member to every 2 or 3 babies in the nursery.
3. Jackie Speier gets an oral affidavit from the Parks family members saying that they want to leave Jonestown and go back to the US.
4. Don Harris interview of the Cobb family in Jonestown, Guyana
The boy likes Jonestown because in the US the school just pass you by while in Jonestown he gets a good education with good tutoring.
Cobb doesn’t feel that his family is under duress.
Mrs. Cobb says that anyone can leave Jonestown whenever they want. They go into Georgetown anytime. She said that Blakey had a passport. She says that there isn’t a pit in Jonestown where they tortured people and had seen no beatings. She also said that Blakey had stolen money from PT and that if she had stolen money from the group she would want to leave and paint a bad picture of the place also.
5. Don Harris interview of Ryan at the Port Kaituma airstrip before departing for Georgetown. Ryan said that a lot of people wanted to leave at the last moment. Ryan said that there was agitation and fear on the parts of those that wanted to leave Jonestown. Ryan and the group divided up the work and Ryan was going to stay to help people who wanted to leave. People who wanted to leave were reluctant to go back to their cottages alone.
Ryan noted a sense of hostility on the part of others who were going to stay in Jonestown.
The knife attack. Mark Lane grabbed [Don “Ujara”] Sly. Sly said something like “rob and choke and kill” (Ryan believed that he intended to kill him) “this is what you are going to get.”
For an overall impression: Ryan, when he put it all together – it was different than what he expected to find. Ryan believes that it is imperative that Jonestown be a place where law and order reign.
Ryan said that Sly’s knife was in his “very large left hand” and that he felt the knife.
Ryan’s hands were shaking and the situation was very tense. Many people were watching the incident.
Ryan felt that there were many people there on a positive and ideological basis and that Jonestown was important to them.
People started to rush to get on the plane. Dwyer was talking to the pilot of the plane. Mrs. Oliver is heard saying “don’t worry about it.”
NOTED BY THE STAFF INVESTIGATIVE GROUP WAS THE NUMBER OF TIMES MICHAEL PROKES AND TIM CARTER WERE NOTICED ORBITING THE CROWDS IN JONESTOWN. THEY WERE CONSTANTLY LISTENING TO WHAT WAS SAID BY JONES AND OTHER PEOPLE TALKING TO THE PRESS ETC.
NBC Film Footage: FBI Tape #7
1. Pictures of the Cobb family.
2. Don Harris interview of Maria and Anthony Katsaris.
Maria says that she doesn’t plan to return to the US at this time. Anthony has heard both sides of the story from Maria and her father. To be convinced that Maria was happy Anthony would have to see her in a neutral spot alone.
3. Jones talking to the Parks family.
4. Houston grandchildren and their mother Phyliss [Phyllis]. They are very happy in Jonestown and the mother is happy with the situation there.
5. Oliver boys. They have cleared up their differences of opinion with their mother and understand her concern. It was just a difference of opinion.
6. Don Harris interview of Jim Jones in Jonestown, Guyana.
Jones leans over and whispers something to Michael Prokes. Harris shows Jones the note Harris received from [Vern] Gosney the night before. Jones says …” this is the man who wants to leave his son here…if it is so bad why does he want to leave his son here.”
“some people like publicity but I dont. People, please leave us, please leave us alone…if it was so bad I would take my son with me.”
A short exchange between Harris and Jones probably about Harris making an unbiased report on Jonestown. Jones ends the conversation with “…that I will live in anticipation of…”
7. Jones talking to Parks family….the only words that can be heard are “…I have pretty well proved…you know it will always be home.”
8. Footage of the Simon custody dispute.
NBC Film Footage: FBI Tape #8
The assassination and shooting incident at Port Kaituma airstrip. The film footage ends with Bob Brown being killed … can see one man actually fire a shot
NBC Film Footage: FBI Tape #9
Harris: “I can tell you one thing, if conditions are as we have been told they are, that no matter what the influence, no one can withstand the sort of pressure generated by this sort of thing.”
1. Don Harris interview of Grace Stoen before trip.
Grace characterizes Jones as being clever, brilliant and manipulative. She feels that what Jones has done to the people is bad – he has physically and mentally hurt people.
Young children are hit 100 times with a paddle while begging Jones to stop and then not allowed to go to the hospital for treatment. Jones didn’t beat people, he had someone else do it. During the boxing matches Jones would praise people for standing there and getting beaten.
G. Stoen was nominated into counseling. She became head counselor and organized counseling in trying to help people get counseling if they needed it.
Jones always used the technique of getting people feel guilty.
PT had seven or eight companies.
She joined the church when she was 19. She was going to marry T. Stoen who introduced her to the church. At that point in time the church was beautiful. It was progressive and she didn’t mind giving up one year for a good cause.
In ’69 the church was just starting to grow and Jones was attracting smart young people. She believes that money and power jaded Jim Jones. No one ever questioned Jones and maybe that was a mistake of the people.
She left the church and left John Victor there. Things had gotten so bad with the church that she had told Jones that she wanted to leave. She was brainwashed into thinking that if she left and took John Victor with her that they would both be killed. She said she would rather be dead than stay in the church but that she couldn’t make that decision for John Victor so she left him with the church. After getting her head together she wanted John Victor back. In Jonestown PT members would tear down Grace in front of John Victor.
The one time that she visited John Victor while he was still in the US, Grace was guarded and never left alone with John. T. Stoen probably did sign a paper that said Jones was the father but everyone signed papers all the time if nothing else because of peer pressure.
Stoen has heard second hand about Jones killing people.
Jones at one time almost hit Grace because she wouldn’t sign another paper.
2. Don Harris interview of Debbie Blakey before trip.
Jones wanted to get people out of the US before the New West article came out and people started to question. PT paid plane fare of members to Jonestown which amounted to about $200,000.
Blakey claims that you can’t leave from Jonestown that you had to be in Georgetown to be able to leave.
Field work is guarded and they make sure that people work fast.
When first entered PT the PT had humanitarian goals. Jones changed tactics to fear tactics to get people to stay. Blakey went to Jonestown to take her mother down and was told to bring everything because she would be staying for 2 months. Blakey believed that Jonestown was the promised land but on arrival quickly learned that she had been duped.
In Jonestown there were armed guards who had hand guns and rifles. Meetings were held almost every night. People were punished for normal things. (eg. People were brought before the group and pressure was applied to their temples with knuckles. They were made to say “I believe in socialism” but Jones would tell them that if they said “I love capitalism” that the pressure would stop. If they did say “I love capitalism” they would be beaten.)
Jones was very clever. All day and all night you would hear Jones talking on the loud speaker. People couldn’t trust anyone and everyone turned everyone in for fear of being tested.
If you were put on the learning crew you would be watched constantly and you had to work double time.
Torture was frequent. Knuckle torture. If kids were caught doing even normal things kids do they would have to go through “Big Foot”. They would be taken into the jungle and thrown into a well where people would be in the well grabbing at their feet pulling them under water. They always screamed “I’m sorry father.”
Jones has hit people with his hands. Beatings were done with fists. Laura Johnson beating.
Description of the suicide trials. People were told to drink the drink and people were planned to act like they were dying. The key was that in a situation like this anyone would act scared, but if you acted in a normal fashion you would be punished so you did what you were told no matter how bizarre.
If you were brought before the group families always had to confront their own families.
NBC Film Footage: FBI Tape #10
1. Set up pictures of Tim Stoen in his office.
2. Don Harris interview at the PT in San Francisco with Walter Duncan. Duncan’s wife (Berdella [Verdella]) and his daughter (Sonje Regina) are in Jonestown. Duncan is not a member of the church – he feels he can be supportive without joining. Duncan also has a job with the Federal Govt. Duncan had a conversation with T. Stoen who said that if Jones would send John Victor back T. Stoen would get off his back.
Duncan visited Jonestown. He saw his daughter anytime he wanted to alone. Duncan never felt that his conversations were monitored. He is convinced that his daughter could leave Jonestown if she wanted to. Duncan went to Jonestown with his wife who stayed in Jonestown.
Duncan feels the allegations about people being kept against their will are not true…he does think it would be harder to leave from Jonestown than it would be from Georgetown…there is the problem of transportation
Jonestown is a family affair. The younger people love it. They have tremendous entertainment program in Jonestown. Although there is an outpost guard at the entrance to the compound, Duncan has never seen any armed guards.
3. Don Harris interview at the PT in San Francisco with Jean Brown. Brown believes that there is a high level conspiracy. She cites an HEW memo saying that all Social Security checks bound for Guyana should be returned. PT crates and shipments were broken into and searched.
Rev. Jones is an outspoken leader who would necessarily incur the antagonism of a number of people. A large number of community reps like Willie Brown said that they were surprised that the defamatory articles hadn’t come out sooner.
The Temple in Jonestown has 1200.
When asked what agencies were conspiring against PT, Brown related the experience of Dennis Banks who told Jones that someone had approached him from the Treasury and told him that things would go better with him if he denounced Jones. PT did find out that G. Stoen had talked to Treasury.
People aren’t beaten.
4. Don Harris interview of Charles Garry at PT in San Francisco. Garry has been to Jonestown twice. He thinks that Jonestown is paradise, utopia. Garry is satisfied that people can leave Jonestown if they wanted to.
Blakey allegations are lies. For example, every morning the senior citizens are woken up and asked whether they had any problems during the night. Senior citizens have security. Kids are attending classes and working in the fields. They have great entertainment.
Fares to Jonestown were paid by the People’s Temple. People gave up money to support church mission. Collective community living. It is a utopian Socialist/Marxist group–not authoritarianism and not elitist.
About a conspiracy against PT. Garry believes that there is something screwy underlying the whole thing. He feels that there are many things that can’t be explained unless there is a drive by someone to destroy PT. Everything points in the direction of a conspiracy but what or who he is not sure.
PT is paranoid. They don’t trust Ryan. PT had asked for members of the Black Caucus to go down because they would trust them.
Jones had been shot at. Jonestown was in a panic and Garry suggested that they arm themselves and put up security. Joe Mazor suggested that Jones be guarded and offered to help train security. Harris told Garry that the Secret Service had been worried about Jones bodyguards in the US. Garry said that he thought that bodyguards were armed and said that he had never seen any guns.
Ryan didn’t contact Garry about going to Jonestown. Garry feels that Jonestown is the PT’s home and community and that Ryan should just barge in. Garry also says that the Concerned Relatives will not be allowed in because Jones doesn’t trust them because there were allegations that someone was going to come into Jonestown and kidnap people.
Stoen case – Garry believes that Jones is the father of John Victor. Garry has a hard time here answering the questions about Jones having a mistress and yet saying that extra-marital affairs are not permitted. Garry chooses to say that he is not going to judge his client.
Garry would not speak about the legal matters now in court because it would be a breach of his responsibility.
5. Don Harris interview at PT in San Francisco with Dr. Charles Goodlett. He became associated with PT through some of his medical patients. Jones was a man interested in social justice.
Jonestown is an experiment in socialism. The whole thing exceeded his expectations. Goodlett had been to Jonestown.
Goodlett thinks that there is a fine line between love and hate and genius and insanity. Goodlett has examined Jones and found nothing wrong.
Jones is ill now but refuses to go a hospital. [Larry] Schacht – Goodlett convinced Jones to send him to a medical school in Mexico and then got into a California school. Schacht’s clinic is very good – people are lined up for medical care (People from the Port Kaituma area)
Goodlett thinks that everything will impress the media.
Goodlett believes that there is a conspiracy. He believes that there are people who don’t want PT to prove that socialism can work.
Goodlett never saw anyone beaten or underfed in fact he thinks the people in Jonestown are living too good. He believes that there is no basis at all to the charges made against PT.
(Aliah Mohmand is a student with an interest in Peoples Temple. Her research has resulted in multiple projects regarding the aftermath of the Jonestown tragedy. Aliah attends Kalamazoo College, pursuing studies in History and Finance. Her full collection of articles for this site may be found here. She may be reached at aliahmohmand@gmail.com.)