Q573 Transcript – Alternative Considerations of Jonestown & Peoples Temple

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[Editorial note: Both sides of this tape have too many unidentified male voices to keep track of. Each change of voice is noted, but all unidentified males are labelled merely as “Male:”]

Jones: (begins in midsentence) –about this country is, (unintelligible word), we’re livin’ in a God damned jungle where you can go 5,000 miles too. If you want to get away from the Nati– National Youth Corps, or the CIA, or whatever the hell else you want to get away from, you can get out there, ‘cause pythons– you can predict the python, or the jumpin’ tin-tin, whatever you call that damned spider, (unintelligible).

Male: (unintelligible)

Jones: You know how far he jumps.

Male: Ting tang.

Jones: Ting tang.

Male: They don’t jump, unless you provoke ’em, anyway.

Jones: Ah, he was damned-well provoked. You could– He was gettin’–

Several people: Laughter

Jones: He wasn’t lookin’ at me at that uh, pi– pineapple stand. He was gettin’ ready to jump. I’m glad you informed me about their jumpin’ characteristics, ‘cause I could tell this is a very strange-lookin’ spider.

Several people: Laughter

Male: They’re supposed to be– They’re supposed to be unafraid.

Jones: Huh?

Male: They’re supposed to be really unafraid of you

Jones: He wasn’t a bit afraid. And I could tell he was gettin’ s– do somethin’ like a leap. I knew he could leap, and then you– then you confirmed it. I said I– There’s no doubt about what he is, or he said, they can leap. I knew that that was a ting tang and not a tarantula.

Male: Ting tang is poison too. Ting tang.

Jones: Huh?

Male: A ting tang is poisonous?

Jones: I don’t know whether they’re poisonous or not.

Male: It’s supposed to be, supposed to be pretty poisonous.

Jones: They are?

Male: Supposed to be badly poisonous.

Jones: Most spiders– there’s hardly a spi– a spider in the world is poisonous to the point of killing you, though.

Male: I don’t think so.

Jones: You don’t– You’re– You’re pretty adverse to that, as I recall.

Male: I don’t know what the– I only know what they tell me. Here in the States they say the black widow’ll kill you, but in truth it won’t.

Jones: It won’t. I was bit by a black widow. I was bit by a black widow, ‘cause of the people messin’ around in the woodpile one day– one time. You remember? Were you up there?

Male: Um-um [no].

Jones: It bit– black widow bit me, (unintelligible), bigger than–

Male: (unintelligible under Jones) And then they– yeah, they say that the tarantulas bite you, but I’ve read about them, they’re only like a wasp sting. But that– that thing must be the worst one.

Jones: (unintelligible under Male) I’ve seen people bit by tarantulas.

Female 1: (unintelligible) prescribe– the doctors here prescribe the same medication for a– a series of mosquito bites that they uh, prescribe for a tarantula bite, so it can’t be that bad.

Male: But that thing is supposed to be worse than a tarantula, so what does that mean?

Jones: Ting tang. Well, find out about a ting tang, ‘cause you got one up there by that pineapple.

Several people: Laughter

Male: Well, I chased him off when I was walking down the road.

Jones: Huh?

Male: I chased him away.

Jones: He uh– he left the pineapple?

Male: Yeah, I tried to kill him and he split.

Jones: Aww. No telling, there’ll be fifty in his place. But as I say, you can– you can predict a ting tang, you can pre– predict a God damned ra– what’s your jumpin’ snake down here?

Male: Labarria and bushmaster.

Male: Labarria.

(several talking at same time, none discernable)

Male: The bushmaster doesn’t bite.

Male: (unintelligible) They curl up like a worm.

Male: Because it bites so quick, so they say.

Male: The bushmaster won’t bite you unless you really mash him or something.

Jones: Is he very poisonous too?

Male: They’re the most poisonous snake in the world.

Male: What kind?

Male: In the world.

(several talking at same time, none discernable)

Male: (unintelligible) internal hemorrhage.

Male: I heard it was uh, the Labarria is the fastest-striking snake, and that Bushmaster is the poison-est snake in the world.

Jones: Labarria can strike you, and I don’t know how many times (unintelligible).

Male: Five or six times, at least, some of ’em.

Male: Well, I (unintelligible word) Labarria last weekend, and it didn’t strike (unintelligible)

Female 1: Well, thank Father. (unintelligible) story about walking out of La Guardia (unintelligible).

Male: One of ’em stuck its– One of ’em stuck his– (unintelligible) in his head and missed.

Female 2: Tommy [Bogue]–

Male: Tommy (unintelligible). They don’t– They don’t miss.

Jones: (stammers) Their sight problems, it’s not– never– never off (unintelligible) anywhere.

Male: (unintelligible) stay on the wall.

Jones: So that’s why we’re not gonna be takin’ any uh, sudden, quick, suicidal missions. The revolutionary suicide has to be a part of your thoughts, at least. (stammers) There’s not a chance in a million [of it] happening. You’ve gotta be prepared to do anything for– to bring about socialism.

Female 2: That’s true.

Jones: The bush– you stepped on what now, the bushmaster?

Male: Labarria.

Several people: (unintelligible)

Jones: Well, we had it when– Our first time here, Suzanne [Jones Cartmell] was saying, (unintelligible) what’s this? Crawled over her feet. We were over in– We were in Matthews Ridge, it just crawled right over her feet. The government people leaped up and says, “My God!” They all jumped up. That’s Ro– that’s what’s his name, he remembered.

Male: Ronald?

Jones: What’s his name? Shaw?

Male: Oh, shaw uh, (unintelligible name)?

Jones: Yonk, Romaine, (unintelligible), they got everything they could to stamp on that damned snake. And it just crawled right over Suzanne’s legs. She just watched it crawl. The damn Labarria, right in the uh, government chambers. (laughter)

Male: (unintelligible) back down here, because remember we came (unintelligible) remember that first time I had to go down to the shop, they asked me if Paula [Adams] was the girl who the Labarria crawled over there on Matthews Ridge.

Jones: Suzanne, my daughter.

Male: Yeah. And I said– I said, no, she had to go back to the States.

Male: I think the city’s more dangerous than the bush anyway.

Jones: It is.

Several people: (Voices of agreement)

Jones: You bet your ass it’s more dangerous. You’re right.

Male: I think we all should give Father rest now.

Several people: (Voices of agreement)

Male: We should get out of here.

Jones: All right, (unintelligible name), it’s pleasant relief to– to talk. (unintelligible) delay your getting up in the morning, no way?

Male: Not for some of us. Some of us have to get up.

Jones: Yeah. Okay. You better go then.

Female 1: Oh, Jerry [Livingston].

Male: Jerry’s gone. He gets to work at 6:30.

Several people: (unintelligible)

Jones: It’s surprised about that other thing. Don’t be worried about it, because we don’t– we’re not quitters. If there’s any way to do it, we’ll do it.

Male: That’s right.

Jones: Even that would’ve been quick. It would have been very exciting, if you’d been participating. Who gives a damn difference how you blow up (unintelligible [FBI summary says “Washington”]). What the hell’s the difference if you do it as a Republican or a Democrat or a fascist or (Pause) a– a homosexual or what the shit? Don’t make any difference (unintelligible), just get it blowed up.

Male: Right. (several agree)

Jones: You see the– see the point, that’s the– the rationale behind it. Get the job done. But if you, being socialist, like The Battle of Algiers– And I want to get that film. I’ll try to get that film down to you. That’s amazing. The Battle of Algiers is an amazing film. (Pause) The uh– the– the colonialists killed off (draws out word) all the leaders of the Algerian Revolution, socialist revolution there– killed ’em all off. Got ’em quartered in one city and murdered every blessed one of ’em. It shows you the film, it’s graphically, carrying out their babies. Killed ’em from men, women, and baby. You know what that did to people? That stirred them up so much that two years later, people who were not committed to socialism, became socialism– uh, socialist and won the battle– beat them, beat the French and Americans out, drove ’em into the sea. So if our dying for something gets somebody else awakened, you should be prepared to do that.

Male: It’d be fun to die anyway.

Jones: And if you die a socialist, and you kill socialism, then you have served no purpose. If you die as a uh, fuckin’ Republicans or something like that, you get people mad at Republicans, then you– you served your purpose. Who gives a shit? If they’re really– Where they ought to be as socialist, who gives a shit what history has to say about you? Now, that’s an egotist that’s talkin’ then.

Male: Better you die and get it over with anyway.

Jones: Yeah, that’s true. That’s true. Or (unintelligible word, sounds like “girlfriends”), sadly enough.

Male: (unintelligible)

(lots of shuffling around, no intelligible conversation)

End Side 1

Side 2

Les Matheson: That means some people get more, and others, some people don’t get confronted (unintelligible) more.

Marceline Jones: In others words, you’re saying there’s not equality.

Matheson: Yeah.

Jones: Well, why don’t you try to correct that instead of running from it?

Matheson: I’ve been cut off by it because (unintelligible word) like everything else. I can’t speak up, everyone explodes.

(pause)

Jones: Does anybody have anything to say on his– on his behalf?

Male: On his behalf?

Jones: Yeah. Uh– uh– Preferably for his case, rather than against it right now. Uh–

Female 1: Uh, we was talking about exploding. I think– I think Lester has had– Charlie [Touchette] just really exploded on him. Uh– (Pause) Philip [Blakey] has exploded on him. I know I have exploded on him. Uh, Jim Bogue has.

Male: I have.

Female 1: He has had some explosions–

Jones: Well, what (unintelligible under Female 1) What happens that causes all these people to– to explode? Now son, what from you. (unintelligible sentence) What do you do that causes people to explode on you? If everybody explode on you, it’s not because they dislike you, must be something you’re doin’.

Female 1: I didn’t mean to bring that around where he was– I said something good about (unintelligible).

Jones: I know, I don’t think you did. I’m doin’ it. I’m doin’ it. I’m the one askin’ you, if all these people explode, then why–

Marceline Jones: The only way you can start over is to find out what’s causin’ this, you know.

Jones: Uh, if everybody’s exploding, then there must be some basis for exploding, son.

Matheson: Well–

Jones: They don’t dislike you.

(Pause)

Marceline Jones: I think–

Matheson: That’s how it– They like– They come and go (unintelligible word) they’re dislikin’ me.

Marceline Jones: Do you think that necessarily when someone explodes, it doesn’t– that it means that they dislike you? I mean, you know, I explode to my uh– these boys that are– are legally mine, and yet I– I– as much as I know about love, I love them. But I explode. Boy, I’ve really had it, especially with Stephan [Jones].

Matheson: Well, it’s just that these explosions carry on. These explosions carry on, and I get (unintelligible word) back as a– as uh, branded anarchist and love my body. When Charlie threatened me, he says, you know, the only real reason it bothers you, that I threaten you, put a knife in your stomach, is it’s because you love your body. And then in another council meeting, Joyce [Touchette] brought it up with (unintelligible, same time as Jones having an unintelligible side conversation) Paula [Adams]. And then the other day when I cut my finger– the other day when I cut my finger and wanted sufficient bandaids so I wouldn’t get infection, Karen got all mad and says, “You just love your body.” And she’s the nurse.

Marceline Jones: Well, I think it’s true that none of us are analysts, and we’ve got to be able to (unintelligible word), you know, especially– (unintelligible under Jones) But he’s (unintelligible) overreacting (unintelligible).

Jones: So how are you overreacting to all of this? You’re not supposed to be God.

Marceline Jones: You know.

Jones: This is an organization. They’re not supposed to be the ultimate leader. They– They’re here uh, trying to do their– their– their jobs (unintelligible word) humanly possible.

Male: Another thing–

Matheson: (unintelligible) but they’re in control of the whole situation.

Jones: Are they? I’m here.

Matheson: I know, but–

Jones: I’ve been here. I have a radio contact. If you make some intelligent kind of reaction, instead of a highly tempered reaction, or tho– those kind of reactions you can’t deal with. I– I react to criticism.

Matheson: With such– With these things that come against me, wouldn’t it make anyone ang– so mad?

Jones: In my opinion, I’ll think I– Well, I don’t know. I think you–

Marceline Jones: Well, a Band-Aid. You know, I think (unintelligible).

Matheson: (unintelligible) make a person so mad. I had a small furniture chair–

Jones: (unintelligible) your– your writing is a little uh, it’s faded here.

Matheson: I had a small furniture chair made for children, and it got a broken arm on it, which could’ve been fixed, and Tim [Swinney] just picked it up one day and– and took it out in the fire and burnt it. Didn’t come to me. And if– if he’d been a mechanic, has a wrench and it’s stickin’, and I threw that away just because it was stickin’, he sure would be mad. The chair could’ve been repaired. It took a whole day to make the chair.

Marceline Jones: Yeah.

Matheson: It wasn’t made out– made out of half-done lumber. And also Tim’s a big bully. When I’d tell the nurse way over there, he took the ax away from me. I said, “You know, I’m usin’ that. I guess I’ll have to improvise.” He said, “Yeah, use your nose.”

Marceline Jones: Well, where is Tim? Does it– (unintelligible) just say you– I mean, you know, maybe he needed the ax.

Male: (unintelligible) bully (unintelligible).

Marceline Jones: I think–

Jones: You can’t know what he was doin’, son. All you can do is what he’s saying. You can’t know what his motivations are. And that’s why I’d like to hear the rest of you saying what– You– A while ago you said– ‘cause the guy that was helpin’ your case is, uh– He actually suggests, right off, the guy helping your case is May, and he said May’s right.

Marceline Jones: (same time as Jones, unintelligible)

Jones: (unintelligible) particular position you’re trying to make. You– You uh– You uh, defend them. Not because you’re partial to them, or like them, because it builds your case. I think it’s wrong that you did that. I think uh– but God, how many times has anybody here had something thrown away that didn’t belong to ’em probably, or I mean that they– uh, that they wanted, or it shouldn’t have been done, or they would talk too wrongly. What if everybody left on the basis of that?

Marceline Jones: And I think it’s possible that some– that people can just have so much confrontation with one person that they get up to here, and maybe they aren’t so– they get to where they’re less and less objective. Maybe not. And I– I’m only saying that if you stay – which I hope you do – there should be a starting over, and all preconceived ideas, if possible, you should wipe yours out, and everybody else should wipe theirs out about you. But it does seem that you believe the people that are going– and the situations the way you– to support how you’re looking at things.

Female 3: (far from microphone) One thing, every message that you’ve ever had from Father, has gone back to Father, and you haven’t believed it. And I think (unintelligible). Every single (unintelligible).

Jones: Hold it, now. Chuck B. asked Charlie T. if he could go see his girlfriend. (Pause) Chuck Beikman got a girlfriend?

Male: Huh?

Matheson: Yes. Yes. We was downriver getting lumber, and a girl came to the boat in the daytime. Asked with Chuckie that night, Chuck Beikman asked Charlie if he could go see her, and– and he said, Chuck– Now, Chuck, wouldn’t that make an interesting subject when Father comes at Easter (unintelligible) now wouldn’t it, Lester?

Jones: What do you mean by that? That– That– That– That would have made a hell of an interesting talk. Th– th– that is a very good thing to be doin’. What did you think of that, son? You think he’s trying to cover it or something, then? Is that what you think?

Male: Oh, I don’t know.

Marceline Jones: Well, what were you saying, were you trying–

Jones: That’s where you’ve gotta watch your paranoia, Les. That’s his way of sayin’, “Now this is a fine thing to be doin’. Is– Is this the– Is this the kind of thing you want Father to hear on Easter?”

Matheson: Well, I sure thought he was–

Jones: Tryin’ to cover?

Matheson: –coverin’ for Chuck. You know, so– they sure didn’t bring it up in the meeting when they got back here. It was– sure was covered then. And a little farther–

Jones: Well, maybe so. Maybe he was covering. Now I suppose we do cover (unintelligible).

Marceline Jones: And forget.

Jones: And forget. (Pause) You didn’t ask if he was covering. Ask him.

Marceline Jones: Were you covering?

Charlie: I had forgotten about it, because I never looked at her as– as being his girlfriend. It’d been a joke really, because during the day– what Lester’s not telling is during the day, there were several people that came by and spoke to Chuck and talked to him. He lived in the place for over– for two months, I believe.

Male: Yeah, I was down there.

Charlie: He lived down there and he got acquainted with everybody, and it happened to be the local schoolteacher, is who it was.

Matheson: She wasn’t your girlfriend? Uh– You never had anything to do with her?

Male: (unintelligible) girlfriend.

Matheson: Because I heard about it from some of the guys who were down there with you. You (unintelligible) teacher.

Male: (unintelligible sentence) Chuck was telling me that was a friend of his down in– went to a dance with her or something like that. Asked (unintelligible) his girlfriend, he says “no.”

Marceline Jones: You went to the dance–

Male: Well, the Iranian guys (unintelligible)

(several talking at same time, none discernable)

Jones: (unintelligible) would sense, and I cannot get (unintelligible).

Matheson: Them Indian guys really just talk on you.

Male: Well, he said– he– I heard him tell me about him having a teacher girlfriend. Uh– He knew a girl down there that was a teacher, and then these guys told me somethin’ about a teacher, and I know that he didn’t get together with them to get in on the same story.

Jones: Yeah, (unintelligible).

Male: So it’s a corroboration of something. Whether he just talked to her, or spent time talking to her in front of the guys, is– is, you know–

Male: They got jealous.

Male: They got jealous probably.

Jones: Son, can’t you capsulize these things, rather than have to read all this. Like you say here that somebody– Charlie did somebody– he let somebody use uh– go back on the Cat. He just take ‘em off and somebody else (unintelligible) writing (unintelligible) I can hardly read it. Somebody else did something, they got by with it– uh, might’ve got by with something, and you didn’t get by with it, or something, I guess is what you’re saying.

Marceline Jones: You know, I don’t know, it’s impossible to remember everything and every way you’re treated [in] another situation, so you do it exactly like it. (Pause) And often people that are so suspicious of other people’s motives, they need to look at their own motives. (unintelligible word) I’m talking to you, Les. When there’s such suspicion of other people’s motives, they should look at their own.

Matheson: (unintelligible) should be doin’ if you were in it. (unintelligible)

Marceline Jones: You’re projecting. (Pause) And it’s impossible, when you’ve got all of these people– It is not possible for me to remember how I treated Jimmie [Jim Jones, Jr.] when he did somethin’ wrong, and then how I treated Stephan, if they did the same thing. I can’t remember.

Jones: You see, you have the contradictions. You have the contradictions. Charlie is accused of being overly uh, hard on his children– by not his children, but people outside. Liane [Harris], uh, for one. Then uh, you’re saying he’s (unintelligible word) under. They both can’t be right. And I’ve seen him be very firm– very, very firm with them.

Male: (unintelligible)

Jones: And if that isn’t– the reports, they say the same thing.

Female 3: (unintelligible) challenge (unintelligible) harder (unintelligible).

Matheson: Well, that– Well, you– (unintelligible) show favoritism. And you’re one of the most–

Jones: –obvious statements you’ve made about anybody, how you can– how you– and you said it in a point of feeling, of needing to get this job done, desperation. He can do these jobs and– and I need him so. And he did such a good job out there, pointed uh– (unintelligible word) point out what you did. It’s just obvious you want to make a case to go home. (Pause) Home. Hell.

Marceline Jones: I read one part here at the end, you said (unintelligible) “Anyone who’s been here as long as I have is truly dedicated.” How long have you been here?

Matheson: (unintelligible word) I mean to put up with– with this– with this uh, poor treatment.

Marceline Jones: Boy, when I think– when I have seen the hell that Father Jim Jones has gone through for the twenty-six years I’ve known him– talk about poor treatment! And I mean by people– the followers, some of ’em–

Jones: Oh! Most of ’em!

Marceline Jones: – I think– I– I think–

Jones: (unintelligible) black woman with her baby in her arms, sweetheart. (unintelligible) strong, if– you’re less concerned about your treatment.

Marceline Jones: If you could remember this– this– this baby– this mother’s holding this baby in her arms, and in her last desperation, trying to squeeze milk out of her breast– if you look at that question closely.

Jones: (unintelligible, could be “I don’t have that picture here today.”)

Marceline Jones: You don’t have that one?

Matheson: I’ve seen that picture, and we do have one here somewhere, but I don’t know where it’s at.

Male: It ought to be (unintelligible word)

Marceline Jones: We all have our bad times, Les. But I remember that, I remember that.

Jones: It looks like dried-up leather, and the poor desperate woman looks at it. So you see, I– if I– if I operated like you did, sweetheart, I would be up shit creek. If I operated like you do, everything that affects you, everybody that wrongs with you, you wouldn’t have no leader, you would have no cause, there’d be nobody to fight your battle when the– your time comes. And you– and uh, with you, where you’re goin’, you’re gonna have to need me sometime, because you’re thinkin’ too much of what you’ve given, how much you’ve done, how much you’ve put up with. Now if I had talked that way with Arnold, when I risked myself goin’ to jail twice for him, and he– he just forgets the next day. You see, you’ve got to dwell on what uh– what you should have in view of what– what the world’s needs are.

Male: You’re too caught up on your own there.

Jones: You’re build– Yeah, you’re building a place of survival that could not only be for Peoples Temple, but thousands of other refug– refugees who could use this as a base to move back even. (Pause) Whereas they’re gonna be prematurely wiped out because there’s such an apathy in America. There’s no labor movement, there is no social consciousness, there is absolute racism– uh, racism, as I told you in Boston. I told you not– I didn’t embellish a thing, I told it just as it is. Racism. Wayne Pietila beggin’ to come back, from right where you’re at in Seattle, wantin’ to get out of there because the racism’s so bad on him and his black wife [Terri Cobb Pietila]. Washington’s filled with it. We talked to, uh, who was it? Who was that? When you talk to the people in Washington about the prejudice. Prejudice exists in Washington State. They’re– They’re Mormon, he had to admit there’s terrible prejudice everywhere up there. You, uh– You, uh– And he’s got an opportunity to deal with them, who cares, you know, what people think of you? I know people hate me. I’m the authority. People hate me. They don’t– Ain’t no question about it, they hate me. People don’t like me. You’re acting as if the uh, L-I-T-T-L-E, because I don’t want him to feel any condemnation about it, and he was just doin’ what everybody feels. He just acted it more normally. Everybody hates the god, the true Savior, they hate him, unless it’s some kind of savior that builds the people uh– along the line they want to be built up, build up ego. I’m hated, man. They don’t bother me, I do what I know is right to do. You know, you can build the same compost out here, you should’ve been buildin’ compost.

Male: Right.

Jones: Who the hell, (unintelligible) people to you one way or the other.

Male: You get fed every day. You got a roof over your head, and you say you believe–

Jones: (unintelligible) bein’ fed properly every day.

Male: You say you believe in what’s bein’ taught, so as long as you have your other needs met, and you know, what difference does it make? But the thing is, you’re– you’re paranoid. Your– your treatment here isn’t that unequal.

Jones: (unintelligible) had your fling with the fellah, you had your fling with the gal. Nobody made a big issue of that. You had no claims.

Male: And you can go to these people if you’ve got problems, (unintelligible).

Jones: (unintelligible) You look at the things that you did, that you– well, you didn’t get by with, they did– but you got by with some stuff they didn’t get by with. It balances out.

Male: That’s right.

(Pause)

Marceline Jones: We don’t expect perfection, uh, out of (unintelligible).

Jones: I want to prepare you for leadership, and even– You cannot lead until you follow, man.

Matheson: Well–

(pause)

Jones: Well, what?

Matheson: My opinion is I– is that the leadership I’m under– not under yours, but under theirs– I haven’t had much to follow.

Male: You follow your own consciousness.

Male: He just don’t want to.

Male: Then do– Then do your job.

Jones: (unintelligible) run down that– up and down the ri– river with– with a man or a woman?

Matheson: Yeah.

Jones: Okay, you can follow that, can’t you? He works hard, and he saves money, and uh, he tries to be cleverly frugal, and he uh– he’s got good PR ability for the most part, knows how to talk to people, got a certain stance that comes off well. What do you mean, there’s nothin’ to follow? He tries to be fair enough to run down and get you, (unintelligible) get you your lunch. You don’t think that’s somethin’? You think that’s not different than most people think about? Some people don’t give a damn whether you get your lunch or not.

Matheson: I know that.

Male: When he jumps up in the middle–

Jones: You’re just not guilty, (unintelligible).

Marceline Jones: You just– You don’t– You look too much to the negative. I mean–

Male: Uh, Les– Lester, one day uh, Jim Bogue said something to me it was– that made a lot of sense. What he said uh– He said, We can’t look at the personalities. We can’t look in the– (unintelligible phrase) personalities and stuff, because we’ll get nowhere. Uh– He made a real good point. I think you ought to think about that. It’s just really ridiculous to (unintelligible) back.

Jones: You’re a good person. That’s– that’s uh– You’re a good source of information. That’s very helpful to the organization. (unintelligible) notice these things, and you should note these (unintelligible), but you shouldn’t personalize it, should be more reportorial uh, aspect, (unintelligible) getting all personalized here, like you’re being given especially bad treatment.

Matheson: How– how am I supposed to clear these things up, if they’re true or not true, uh, when I can’t bring ’em to a meeting and have confrontation (unintelligible).

Jones: (unintelligible word) But they say, (unintelligible) you act, uh– No, I hear comments. And I’ve read it too someplace, it’s all here that you act irrationally when (unintelligible).

Female 3: (far from microphone, same time as Jones) control yourself. Can’t have a reasonable confrontation when you lost control.

Jones: What’s that? Can’t hear you.

Female 3: (unintelligible) I said you can’t– you can’t have a reasonable confrontation when you lose control of yourself, because then nobody can hear you.

Male: You also have a way of turning into a pantomime where you, uh– you absolutely infuriate people, and that’s why it’s probably a reason (unintelligible) grow up.

Matheson: Pantomime?

Male: Pantomime.

Male: He mimics people when they’re talking. Imitates us.

Matheson: Also I– that– that display (unintelligible), I also have a hard time speaking, and so I do speak in that manner too.

Marceline Jones: Yeah, but you shouldn’t– you don’t have to mimic people.

(several speaking at same time, none discernable)

Matheson: (unintelligible) speaking like (unintelligible).

Jones: Well, you are, Lester.

Male: Just after a conversation turns into a– a mess (unintelligible).

Marceline Jones: That’s everybody else’s fault, when it turns into a mess.

Male: (unintelligible) everybody’s out to get you. Nobody’s out to get you.

Male: And Les– Les, there’ve been several times when– like be in a meetin’, tryin’ to say somethin’ to you, and you– you just cut us off– You cut one of us off when we talk to you, right in the middle of what we’re sayin’, and you’re gonna (unintelligible) stages of how this one said this or that one said (unintelligible word) so and so. And you won’t listen to a word that anybody else is sayin’ or somethin’. And it gets everybody else (unintelligible).

Male: I noticed another thing, that uh, especially during the meeting, when confrontation (unintelligible) is taking place, you go off on tangents. Like uh, somebody makes a remark uh, that starts it off. Or you’ll try to answer them. Somebody else makes a remark, and before you’ve finished answerin’ the first one, you supposed to take off answerin’ them. Pretty soon you’ve got about three or four remarks you’re tryin’ to answer all at the same time. You’re goin’ all around, now pretty soon everybody’s just completely fogged-in as to what you’re drivin’ at, simply because you think everybody has you wrong on everything that they bring out.

Jones: You’re putting yourself too important, son. You might relax and be able to explain things more if you didn’t put yourself too important.

Marceline Jones: Les, the very fact that you said, “Well, I only mimic people after the conversation gets out of hand.” What if everybody mimicked everybody else when the conversation got– Do you think that justifies you mimicking someone? Mimic someone?

Matheson: I don’t– I don’t mim– mimic them for, uh– for, uh– to– to build my case in an argument.

Marceline Jones: Well, why then– (unintelligible word) You shouldn’t. That naturally makes them angry.

Matheson: This– And I do not really mimic them like they say. They make (unintelligible).

Male: Technical point.

Matheson: That’s a technical point. Now I have to get defensive and go back–

Marceline Jones: But you’re (unintelligible word) You’re defensive when you tried to defend mimicking– at all! You’re defensive!

Matheson: If I’m accused on it, what am I supposed to do?

Jones: Well, what do you do? Do you mimic or not mimic?

Matheson: Let ’em give some examples. I’m not tryin’ to (unintelligible) anybody off.

Jones: Okay, Bogue, give one.

Jim Bogue: Uh– Uh– Two mornings ago, or three mornings ago, I was tryin’ to get a work situation straightened out with Jeff [Carey]. And as I was trying to talk to Jeff, Lester, out of the blue, started one of these panorama-type things. Uh– Uh– I don’t know exactly all the words he was saying, but uh– and he wouldn’t hush about it. I finally had to drop the thing with Jeff. I finally got upset at Lester, and I told him that– that he should shut up, ‘cause after all, trying to get this work organized, and all the sweat and blood that Father puts out for this program, and then he still wouldn’t hush. And so practically everyone here at the breakfast table has spoke to Lester about hushing up, and he was still doing this mimicking, and he wasn’t even in on the conversation to start with.

Male: That’s true. That’s true, and then Jim Bogue and I went out here with the misunderstandings (unintelligible word).

Matheson: You already had your misunderstandings.

Male: Well, because you interrupted the– the course of conversation.

Matheson: No, not because I interrupted. David jumped in and said– Jim Bogue says, ‘Why didn’t you get those banana sticks up for the whole week?” And David says, “It took a whole week.” Then I said somethin’ to David. And that’s when Jim Bogue misunderstood me, thought I was getting on Jim Bogue’s (unintelligible).

Male: That’s not the course of the conversation. So what are you going to do with the workers for the first hour and a half?

Jones: That’s the point: Now how can so many people be wrong? And I don’t hear you analyzing yourself in this. I don’t hear you sayin’ what kind of a horse’s ass you are, because everybody is.

Marceline Jones: It’s everybody else’s fault. You’re not wrong at all.

Jones: (unintelligible) justification. And you’re contradictory. You think I’m– you– you subconsciously– I’m not accusing you of any conscious desire– but you (unintelligible) you’re goin’ back to work, and you ain’t got no more intention, you’re goin’ back to (unintelligible). You know that. You’re givin’ me a bullshit case, tryin’ to (unintelligible word ) take me for some kind of a damned dumb fool, and let you get out of here. No one’s gonna stop you. If you haven’t got the– the– the stamina to take it, I’m not gonna stop you from goin’. (pause) Don’t give me no damned dumb case about goin’ back there and doin’ all these remarkable things for the cause. But if you really care that much, you stay here and build compost, instead of us having to deal with people we don’t know, their work performance and we had to hire, and we can’t trust to perform, who don’t uh– who don’t have in their heart to do it. You– you say you’re prepared for people that could escape that (unintelligible word) back there, rather than go back there and be a part of it, by huntin’ some capitalist uh, woman who you build up in some damned illusion because you had some religious insanity, uh, if– that now you’re gonna give her justification. You went back the second time to Peoples Temple and socialism, not insanity. And– and so she still rejects that. Uh– And then you’re still gonna go back and give that woman all that time. And there’s about– there’s a couple thousand black people waitin’ on a chance for life, and you can do it more than anybody, because Charlie says when you get to goin’, you can turn a mountain ’til you get to do it when you want to work. When you want to get somethin’ done, you can get a mountain. So you want to– you want to throw 2,000 black people’s lives away for one honky-ass bitch. That’s what it boils down to, son. And I don’t play games with you. I’ve always been– and you talk (unintelligible word). I don’t like that. (pause) So if you want to go back there, to that, let’s just call it what it is, and face your own guilt, ‘cause I’ve faced mine. Don’t try to dress up this shit (unintelligible word) blame this one, and that one, and another one, and nitpick. Uh– All the stuff they did wrong they shouldna done. Shouldna burned your chair up, and all that kind of stuff. They shouldna done that. But (unintelligible) you, you shouldn’t have done either. That’s not justifying what they did wrong, that should– that should be corrected, and it should be presented, and it should be con– presented in a logical a– attitude, and should be corrected there. But you sow discontent when you get disturbed. You sow it to others. You get around people (unintelligible word) and create their negativity. And you know you do bad, and you– you help create some of the antagonism that comes your way. Couldn’t have all that antagonism comin’ your way, (unintelligible), ‘cause you’re not ugly. People do react, unfortunately, if physical appearance, you’re not ugly, so they’re not reacting to that. And they, unfortunately, react to certain handicaps, which is a terrible animal condition that’s not been removed out of socialism. And the– that isn’t there. So it’s a personality characteristic they’re uh– they’re reacting to. You go around threatenin’ to knock, uh, beat on this one and that one, probably too much of that violence. But uh, you seem to be gettin’ a little bit more of it than the average. Think I certainly feel better about you gettin’ somethin’– some of the other uh, things– that’s kind of you, (unintelligible) drinkin’, and all you guys sittin’ here doin’ nothin’.

Male: Whenever we’re conducting a meeting, it can go on in such a tone where it is– it is, you know, halfway normal thing. And if– And if something is brought up that Lester is not even the focal point of it– I mean, he– it’s just that he was– you know, he– he wasn’t even the focal point. If it’s up, he gets very hostile and hateful, he– and he interrupts the whole meeting. The only time that he will con– will conduct himself in a ci– civil manner–

Jones: (cutting off Male above) Anybody read (unintelligible).

Marceline Jones: (in hushed tone, probably speaking to Jones, unintelligible)

Male: The only time he’ll– The only time that he’ll conduct himself in a civil manner is like whenever somebody is here from the States.

(overlapping voices)

[Editorial note: At this point, the tape deteriorates and becomes increasingly unintelligible for the remaining five minutes of the recording. The only discernible sentences follow]

Marceline Jones: You gotta remember (unintelligible) we’re up there fighting for everything we can get.