Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.
To return to the Tape Index, click here. To listen to MP3, click here.
To read the Tape Summary, click here. To read the Annotated Transcript, click here.
Lee Ingram: —who is continuing to (pause)— No one should be on the floor walking about right now. Everyone should find a seat and be quiet. (pause) I think the first thing we should say is, uh, the Tuesday night meetings are at 7 PM, and you will have to arrive before 7 PM to be able to get in the door. If you come at 7, the door will be closed. You have to be inside— (clear throat) You have to be inside the auditorium by 7. The meetings are not at 7:30. They are at 7 PM, Tuesday night meetings. (Pause) Okay. (Pause)
Marceline: Some general comments. If you need telephone numbers, please try information before you call any of our members, that ah— probably 80, 90 percent of the telephone numbers, even when people move, are listed with the operator. And their time is not as valuable as our time. Sometimes— (long pause)
Jones: They call our home for telephone numbers.
Lee Ingram: That’s absurd. Uh, anyone— Well, who— who here has called— called the parsonage uh, for a number? (Pause) There was a re— call received. Marceline received a call yesterday. Who was this? (Pause) And they wanted the number for the Friendship— what’s that, the Fellowship House. For the Fellowship House. (Pause) Who was that? (Pause) There is to be no one, absolutely no one, calling that parsonage. (Pause) I’m tr— I— I know— (unintelligible phrase) be no one calling the parsonage, trying to find a number. That’s not a, a, an information center. You can’t call in there to, you know, to check in and find out who you want to see, or find out someone’s number. (Pause) There are over 300, 400 calls there a day, and they cannot be expected to answer the phone every second, and especially for something as nonsensical as an information for another number. (Pause) From now on, you should call in— either information, which is 411, or call someone on this council, if you’re having difficulty finding someone’s numbers. (Pause) Now is anyone here still smoking, or drinking? And if you are— (Pause)
(Voice too low)
Lee Ingram: Uh, just as a reminder, we are having a Los Angeles meeting this weekend, and everyone is to go. (Pause) The only— (tape edit) any excuses about not having the carfare to go, that is— that isn’t a problem. (Pause) Any everyone that misses will be brought up on this floor and dealt with pretty severely, because this— this has been gone over time and time again. (Pause) Even if you’re working, let’s say, on Friday night, and we leave Friday night, we expect for you to arrange for a carpool. (Pause) Is that understood? Everyone should be in this coming meeting— this coming meeting this weekend, in Los Angeles meeting? (Pause) Is anyone from the buses here know what time we’re leaving Friday night? (Pause) Six o’clock we’ll be leaving? (Pause) Well, all of you should be out here between six and 6:30, I’d say, to board the buses so we can get on our way to Los Angeles. (Pause) Thank you. (Pause) It has been brought to the council’s attention that Bunny Talley [most likely Maureen Fitch, aka Maureen Talley] went to Los Angeles as a hostess. I saw her in back. I see her right there. (Pause) Bunny Talley went to Los Angeles as a hostess, and did not report to work at Hacienda. (Pause) Would you come up front, please? (Pause) Well, while she’s coming forward, no one is ever to miss work, unless you are— you are almost deathly ill and have a— have a very high fever. Even that doesn’t really count, because you can usually get out of bed, you know, for something you want to do, and work is an extremely, you know, part of— co— contributing to this— to our major work here, you know. (Pause) It’s— It’s very, very important for all of us to maintain good work records, good attendance at— at jobs, and good job performance, if you ever want to relocate elsewhere. So we expect everyone to be on the ball at jobs and attend. Now, Bunny, what— what about this?
Bunny: I check— I checked with Lois [probably Ponts, could be Breidenbach] before I went, and I have sick time coming uh, from work to me, and this is what I took. I took my sick time, which I do get paid for, for taking. And I had to have this taken out by — this is August? — by September when we started. And I talked to Lois today, and she didn’t say anything about there being any trouble at work. I took it on sick leave, I have a notice from my doctor to go back to work on. (Pause) But I went down Friday night, uh, as a hostess, and was cleared to do so, and then I went uh— when the buses went back. And the only reason I went back was because Sylvia [Grubbs] said she was— did need uh, hostesses.
Lee Ingram: Okay, who— who— who— who has made this— this complaint?
Woman: I was, because we, uh— they were short two girls and um, um, Mary Wotherspoon said that um, Saturday night that Mary said that she didn’t think she could uh, work the next day. And I didn’t know that she had cleared it with Lois.
Jones: Well, then, let’s go— let’s go through Lois. It’s all right. I appreciate your surveillance, uh, but let’s go through Lois before we get this thing on the floor. Uh, we do have these emergencies where we were extended, and uh, bus crews have no alternative, they best have no resource to withdraw— to withdraw from, so let us check out, uh, with her before we get a matter on the floor, um. Check with the— with the person who— the head. I might say that Marceline in her, um contact today with some import— important officials, she has an ex officio uh, pretty important position given to her uh, today, and not any defined hours, but uh, a position that can be of some immense resource to the— to the family. She uh, got some glowing reports on Hacienda’s improvement at the state level, so that’s good to know. (Pause) That’s the state level that she got this— So keep it— keep it up. (Pause)
Voices too low.
Lee Ingram: Is Louise Schaeffer here?
Woman: Yes— (rest of sentence tooo soft)
Voices too low.
Lee Ingram: Is John Biddulph here? Is he outside in the grounds anywhere? Has anyone seen him?
Voices too low.
Second Woman: (mike cuts in) —he would probably have to work late, because I was going to put him in a rest home, but he told me, he’d probably have to work late because of this.
Voices too low.
Lee Ingram: Uh, Herman? (Clears throat) The other night, uh, John asked you to uh, help him work, you know, clean up— clean up the church. I think it was uh, Saturday night. And uh, then you went into the building and sat down at a table while the rest of the guys cleaned, and uh, ate a piece of pie. (Pause) Is this— Is this true, this complaint? (Pause) Herman? Is this true? Co— Come on forward, Herman. (Pause)
Voices too low.
Lee Ingram: Okay. (Pause) Okay, what I said was, John Biddulph asked you Saturday evening, uh, I think it was Saturday evening, to help clean in the— in the— you know, do some maintenance here, and you went out and got yourself a piece of pie from one of the concessions stands, came back in, sat down at a table, ate uh— you know, right while they were working. (Pause) Instead of giving them a hand, you sat down and ate a piece of pie. Is this what happened?
Herman: Yeah. I told them, I had to take some people home too.
Lee Ingram: So why didn’t you go about doing that, then, instead of coming in, sitting down, and eating a pie of pie, after the brother had asked you to give him a hand?
Herman: ‘Cause they were ready to go in a few minutes. (Pause)
Lee Ingram: Say what? I didn’t hear you.
Herman: I said, they were ready to go in a little while. In a few minutes.
Lee Ingram: Then, you could’ve— you could’ve helped them for that few minutes that you were waiting for those folks to get ready, or whatever they were doing, instead of their luggage off buses or something. You could’ve, you know, lent— lent them a hand. That’s all they asked you, was for a hand. ‘Cause you were— he was short-staffed Saturday. (Pause)
Jones: What is this? Let me (unintelligible word)
Lee Ingram: (Too low)
Jones: Brother Allen Terry. Bluntly. When you put the whole arm of the church out, (Pause) all the— all the praise and all the dancing and all the— the shouting, all the tears in the world, and I saw you crying last Saturday about gratitude over getting out of a mess. But all that means nothing to me whatsoever, (Pause) when we’re still in that mess, and we got to fight that mess through, and we’re gonna fight it through, as your family. And John Biddulph’s one of my structural people, most important people here to get— help me with the burden of maintenance. And you start this thing, just hours out of your (stumbles over words) after having some difficulty. It makes me wonder. ‘Cause if it wasn’t for your family right now, you’d be— you’d be in a real spot, and you know it. But you— the only thing you got working for you is there— the family, the legal counselors here, and then hours after a thing, hours after it— and I’m not just speaking to you, Herman, I’m speaking to people in general, there ought to be a vote, a spirit of gratitude that uh, would prevail, last longer than just one moment. But you sit down and eat a piece of pie— you could’ve also helped Tim [probably Stoen] for that moment while you were waiting. (unintelligible word) John Biddulph’s overworked.
Lee Ingram: That’s right. And it’s really difficult— I mean, you know, he— he stays here and slaves until like three, four, five o’clock sometimes. You know, and it’s just he and maybe, you know, uh, one or two other brothers, Phil— Phil Blakey, and maybe one other brother, that they can barely, you know, get to, to give them a hand.
Jones: He’ll never leave. He never leaves, unless I— I dismiss him. He’ll sleep in a chair. He was doing it four or five o’clock the other morning, and it’s morning after morning after morning. And of course, everyone’s had their share of difficulty, he has had his, but, for months, he’s created no problems. (Pause) Well over a year, he’s created no problem. And he— he’s shown a redemptiveness for his problem. And all he did was uh— was uh, something had hurt himself. But what you did, man, was something else, uh, even though it was hysteria, but when you took off like that in a car— (unintelligible word) That was my hesitancy for you to get a car in the first place, someone who has not driven for long. So you get a car and you go out, and you don’t more get in it, you run over fences and cars and toys, and you could’ve killed somebody. (Pause) And then you leave the scene. And I don’t know what you know about law, but that’s a serious business, when you leave a scene.
Lee Ingram: Yes it is, (unintelligible phrase)—
Jones: Uh— well, we’re not going to discuss that, I guess, but that isn’t the proper thing. Probably you didn’t really leave the scene, but in your mind, (Pause) um, (Pause) there was irresponsibility in your behavior. Irresponsibility.
Lee Ingram: Uh, and it seems— seems, brother, this pattern of carrying through um, in— in your— in your work. You know— (voice fades)
Woman: Uh, Herman, uh, at the hospital Sunday night, this uh, Mexican man named Frank Bean that was working at County Hospital with you brought his daughter in, and uh, he said to one of the nurses there at General Hospital, he said, there’s a colored man at the County Hospital, and he’s the most lazy man I ever met in my life. He spends three and a half hours in a row watching a ballgame without stopping. He watched the ballgame from 10:30 in— this morning until 1:30 this afternoon. He goes into a back room and he listens to the radio. He— he never does anything. He— He spot cleans, he spot sweeps. And he said, I’d really like to see him get fired. And um—
Jones: Who said that?
Woman: This Frank Bean, that is a— is a janitor now at uh, Mendocino Hos— at uh, County Hospital with Herman. He said that Herman watches TV for three hours of— of the ballgame without stopping.
Jones: Do you watch the ballgame?
Herman: On my lunch hour.
Jones: Where are you— Where are you in consciousness? You’re interested in ballgames here? (Pause)
Lee Ingram: Brother, do you understand—
Jones: I— You— You earn like you do, like a (unintelligible phrase), a loving father. And the easier I am, the more of this I put up with.
Woman: Uh, Herman, a—
Jones: Shh! (Pause) I don’t want— I don’t want to have to ask— ask, expose and pull it out, inch by inch. Is this true, Herman, or is it not true? (Pause)
Herman: Yes, it’s true.
Jones: Why did you lie to me? (Pause)
Herman: But I do do my work, he was wrong about that.
Lee Ingram: He asked why— why did you lie to him?
Jones: ‘Cause the lunch hour is not the only time you’ve ever done it. You knew you were lying to me. And I know it immediately, and I’m tired of letting you people get by with this lying, because I’m just (unintelligible word), uh, not interested in going into each of these little things, and dig, dig, dig, and I know immediately when somebody lies to me. I may look at you, and just at you straight, and let you lie. Or I may do just like I did then, and say, I’m getting tired. (Pause) You lie very nicely. You lie just very straightforwardly. Mmm, mmm, mmm, you shook your head, like you had been (soft tone) attacked unrighteously and unfairly. (Pause) (Snaps fingers) (unintelligible word)
3rd Woman: Herman has even gone to the San Francisco Bay Area to ball games there, to the Giants— Giant games, I believe it is, uh, on a weekend, and paid money to go. (Pause) (Angrily) You have too. And you came back and slept in my car, and— and went to work for my car. You did too. Don’t lie again. (Pause)
4th Woman: Herman, have you paid money to go to see the Giants play?
Herman: Yes, but I never—
4th Woman: (unintelligible word as she interrupts) —It doesn’t matter whether you went on the weekend or any other time, did you go? That is the important thing. You’re skirting around the issue again. (Pause)
Lee Ingram: If you— If you smoke a cigarette, it doesn’t matter what road you smoked it on.
Jones: Aw, well, (stumbles over words) (speaks in low angry tone) This is not necessary. You don’t have to teach Herman ethics. Or if you do, we’ve certainly uh, been wasting our time. You know that uh— whether it’s a weekend or whether uh, not, we’ve talked about the capitalism of, of ballgames. The exploitation of blacks by sports clubs. The miserable revelations. I’ve spent two or three sermons — three — talking about the revelations of a former ballplayer, how they give them hypodermics that kill them, to get more energy out of them, make them muscular, but it finally kills them. Or makes them addicts. And they’re all involved in barbarous misuse of— by uh, the— these organizations, and the homosexuality that was, uh, sadism, sadistic homosexuality encouraged by coach— coaches. We all went in this. You heard— If you— you— ‘Course, you may not have heard this—
Herman: I don’t know—
Jones: Some people don’t hear anything goes on in here. (Pause) You sit here, but you don’t hear it. (Pause)
Woman 5: And also, you’re chewing gum right now—
Woman 6: Excuse me, could we have everyone please listening when Father’s talking, and not reading a newspaper. Thank you.
Jones: Who’s reading a newspaper?
Woman 6: Bernie.
Jones: Who’s reading a newspaper?
Woman 6: Ber— Uncle Bernie. He’s sitting there looking at the Sun-Reporter.
Jones: (Snort) (Pause) Now you see? You don’t like discipline. You don’t like rules, don’t like council. People said the council’s too ag— aggravating. Because I’m the Father, and I tend to love my children (Pause) too much, to indulgence, you’ve got to have a tough council. Council has to (Pause) take an unloving role of what it seems to be— It really is a loving role. (Pause) Somebody gonna have to go. Somebody gonna have to take a walk.
Lee Ingram: I think so.
Jones: This place is gettin’ in danger, (Pause) because everyone thinks that you can get by. I look out here, and I see, from every meeting, the issues I talk about from the meeting before, facing me, the same issues facing me the next meeting (Pause) because, I think maybe you think (Pause) that uh, we won’t separate from you. (Pause) Well, you’re not too high (Pause) that we won’t separate from you. You better listen closely. (Pause) I’m not that— I wasn’t at council last night, too, but there were lies told to that council. Lies. (Pause) Not facing reality. Trying to shift the gears. (Pause) Pushing the responsibility onto somebody else. (Pause) So I had to become fully aware of what went on at council last night. (Pause) I’m— I don’t like to give people— a council the power to throw somebody out when I’m not present, but (Pause) I’m inclined to think I shall. (Pause) If we make a bad decision, it can’t be as bad as what we’re into here. (Pause) Because, if you don’t get the message in working with us, when I put the whole machinery of this church at your expense, and run our attorneys right in for you, and willing to risk our whole reputation, when I would never dream of leaving the scene of an accident— (Pause) They’d have to drag me away from the scene of an accident. (Pause) But you did this, (Pause) and we went along with this and uh, support you, because you’re one of our brothers. (Pause) Nothing can be quoted from this room. Can’t even discuss things wh— with any sense anymore, because it’s not good sense to discuss this type of thing. (Pause) (unintelligible word) deny the things’d been said, (unintelligible word) we’ll stand by each other, we’re like the Jews. We’ll stand by each other. Got nobody else to stand by. Anybody goes out and said he left the scene, I’d say you’re a liar, because I’ll support the family. (Pause) [I’d] Say he’d never done it before. That’s not the issue. You’ve never done it before. But it— just in days, a matter of days, and then we have a thing like this come up on you right after. I— I— I’d— If— If I had a family had fought for me when I was alone, and I spent a goodly part of my life alone, (Pause) I would’ve been eternally grateful to that family. And I’d done anything I could to keep that family together. Some of you seem to have (unintelligible word— could be “the feeling”), you can’t tear that family up. (Pause) Tear it up. (Pause) I don’t think you intentionally do it, but it’s— whether it’s intentions or not, it amounts to the same thing. What do you have to say?
Marceline: Um— I see Herman moving around through the halls. He does move awfully slowly. And the whole hospital is against him. I mean, all that I’ve heard talk. And when we uh— When I came back from vacation, I told him that I went— took a plane and went to Ohio to visit my grandchildren, so as soon as I walk in after being gone two weeks, the head nurse on Acute says, well, did you enjoy your trip to Mexico and Canada? And I said, what do you mean? And she said, well, didn’t you go with Herman and the church? And I said, I don’t know anything about it. I said, I went to Ohio on the airplane. And I approached Herman, and I— I asked Herman before we went on the trip, not to tell anybody where we were going.
Jones: Did you, Herman?
Marceline: And he told one person (unintelligible word under Jones)
Jones: Did you? (Pause) Herman? (Pause) What do you have to say, Zippy [Zipporah Edwards]?
Zippy: (off mike) This is Zippy speaking. (mike on) Uh, what I want to say, see, I been uh, telling him about these ballgames for a long, long time.
Several voices compete.
Jones: I asked— I asked her. I sent it to her. I was about to make a decision, (unknown name: Harry? Harriet?), and you missed— you missed it all— you missed it. I— I’ve not made a decision, but I wanted to hear from her first.
Zippy: So I said, you know that Jim— what Jim thinks about these ball games, he saying— I think, you should quit going to the ball games. And then again, when he got this car, I wanted to tell him, don’t go in unfamiliar places at night, ‘cause you don’t know how to drive in the dark, and you— and I wouldn’t tell him, because I know his head, (unintelligible sentence). I wanted to tell him (unintelligible phrase), Father, but he would not listen to anything you say (unintelligible word). And I been asking for a long time about going to these ball games, (unintelligible phrase).
Woman 7: Um— and just uh, Saturday or Sunday, Herman took off at 1:30 and uh, Jan Wilsey’s mother told me that they were talking in the dining room about him, and said that Herman was going to get fired.
Jones: Well, she’s an Indian, so she’s not against you.
Woman 7: No, she’s for him.
Jones: Um-hmm.
Woman 7: And she (unintelligible word under Jones)
Jones: (unintelligible word) There seems to be some number of Caucasians involved, but that’s your— it’s your blood relative there, standing, she’s black. So there[‘s] been an equal number here of all races represented with a very, very bad story here.
Woman 7: I didn’t— I didn’t hear what they said, but she said that they said he’s taken too much time off, and that he told them he had to go to the International Airport, and he had to leave at 1:30. And the janitor and—
Jones: The International Airport.
Woman 7: And the janitor and the housekeeping department, which she’s a part of, were all setting in there, three or four of them, discussing him being fired. (Pause) And also, you been playing games with those women, too, Herman. You’ve been uh, flirting around with some gals in uh, Los Angeles, and one of the girls here, and then you tried to get me to go with you in your car the other day, and I thought it was friendship. When I realized what you— you were flirting around with me, you said you’d rather have me than anybody, I didn’t want to go with you at all. (Pause) Well, I think that if Archie Ijames were here, he could verify that you did, and you’re lying again.
Jones: What’s that?
Woman 7: He said he didn’t try to get me to go with him. He wanted me to go with him in his car. And he’s lying. Again. (Pause)
Lee Ingram: What’s that about, man? What’s that about? You were taking her where? What had you intended to do?
Jones: I can’t answer this kind of stuff. I don’t (unintelligible word)—
Lee Ingram: Okay. (Pause) Well, there— there’ve been some very, very serious charges made here, Herman. Very serious indeed.
Jones: Uh, Grace [Stoen]? Read this and go get uh, A.J. [Archie Ijames] (Pause) Okay?
Lee Ingram: Have you anything to say for yourself at this time?
Herman: Yes, I’m sorry. (Pause) And it won’t happen again.
Jones: No, I’m— I can assure you, it won’t happen again. (Pause) I can assure you, it won’t happen again. None of this mess is going to happen again. (Long pause) You better be laying some plans as to where you would move, if you are released from this church. Because if you deviate the slightest, Herman, you’re going. I won’t even act on it.
Woman: You’re right. That’s right, Herman.
Jones: And I— my word’s out there. They’re— They’re going to do it.
Woman: You’re right. We will.
Male: That’s it, man.
Several quiet voices
Jones: Oh, I know about his temper. I know that. I— uh, man— I expect you to cooperate with me. I’ve never been arrested. I’ve never been involved in anything illegal, and I give my life purely for socialism, and I want to keep my record clean. (Voice rises) I don’t like people running around, violating every kind of rule, then violating laws, for their own ego. The only law I believe in breaking is what Martin Luther King said, a bad law. A bad law doesn’t mean to misbehave on a road with an automobile. Those are good laws, the only be— all— only ought to be tighter and harder than they are. (Pause) Then we have your work habits. Those are good laws. We can show people we’re good integrationists, that we’re good socialists, by how we work. You violated that. Your temper and your— your interplay, your sex play. There’s nothing so threatening than a— than a man who appears moderately, uh, dressed or moderately handsome, being black and large, flirting around on a job. You’re messing us up there. ‘Cause evidently you had no need for women on a— in a— in marriage all your life. You got along very beautifully without women. Do you have the same problem that the other brothers have. (Pause) Hmm?
Herman: Yes.
Jones: What is that problem? (Pause)
Herman: Homosexuality.
Jones: All right, now, what— what— what— what are we— what are we uh— (Pause) What are you risking so much? (Pause)
Lee Ingram: Uh, wha— wha— what are— what are you now involved in here, you know, project-wise?
Herman: (Clears throat) Service uh, committee.
Lee Ingram: What else? (Pause) And how many— Well, how many hours do you spend with the service committee working on things?
Herman: Well, I— I just started.
Lee Ingram: Just started it?
Herman: Yeah.
Lee Ingram: What else are you involved in, Herman?
Herman: Well, security.
Lee Ingram: Umm-hmm.
Jones: You used to come down here and uh, help so much with maintenance, and I— I’m looking back to that time. I’m uh— I’m fair. If anything, too fair. I’m— I’m let— I’m riding on the years that we’ve known each other. (Pause) I rode on the years that I’ve known each other with a couple other people this week. (Pause) I’m getting kind of weary, putting out anything but the truth. (Pause) So, as I said, no matter how much it breaks my heart to do so, at the next hearing, I won’t be present. I will step down from this office, and they will be this office. And I think you need to know— as they know, I’m loving, but they think that in some instances, I’m a little too soft. So— (Pause) um, you face them. Not me. And I’ll put it in the record, and that’s it. So, brother, keep your nose clean. They’re going to write this down, so that’s my word. I will not be able to intervene. Do you realize what that means? You better improve your job, (Pause) you better lay off wasting our money on racist sports—
Lee Ingram: Amen.
Jones: —and better find some— If you want some companionship, if there’s any need in you at all, then you find it within this group, you don’t find it outside. (Pause)
Lee Ingram: Why don’t you get a dog from Penny [most likely Kerns], if you want some companionship? She has a lot of little puppies that need taking care of. Why don’t you get a, you know, get an animal to take care of, if you’re looking for companionship? It’d be a lot more wholesome, and a lot more real. (Pause)
Jones: Whatever. You better not play any kind of sex games here, to get us in any trouble. I’ve had enough trouble, ‘cause I am saving myself to fight injustice. And I don’t want to get drug in by these silly violations of good laws. And I better get through everybody’s head here. (Pause) I will go down fighting against an unjust law. But it is just that you give an honest day’s work for your pay. You don’t like it, quit. Or go through channels and protest it. But don’t slovenly, uh, fail to do your work. (Pause)
Woman: And besides telling three lies here to Father, I asked you, uh, when I first got up, to swallow your chewing gum, and you didn’t, and uh, I’m quite sure that the children don’t appreciate it.
Jones: What are you doing, chewing gum in here? (Long pause)
Voices too soft
Jones: All right, go ahead. Let him talk about something else. Go ahead. Whatever you have to say to him.
Lee Ingram: Um— I think you should, from now on out— Uh, wha— Herman, what is your schedule? Do you have a constant schedule? Do you work days, is that it?
Herman: Yes.
Lee Ingram: Okay. Fine. You are only to use your cars— your car to go to and from work, unless you are especially called on. Uh, I want you— I want Zippy— Zippy, where are you, hon?
Jones: I want you to do this for me. (Stumbles over words) I’m greatly questioning whether, uh, how much you know me, and to be where you are, all the years we’ve been around, or at least, in contact with each other. (Pause) I want you to come down here, and uh, you check water, uh, people been leaving water. I want you to do this every day, see that there’s not water faucets running. I’d like you to go through and see that the animals are well fed, ‘cause I’m having to do some of this. And I’ll be on some important missions. I want you to see that these animals are getting well-fed, and you or Stephan [Jones, Jim Jones’ son]— where’s Stephan and— where’s Stephan? And uh, Tim [Jones, Jim Jones’ adopted son], Jim [Jones, Jim Jones’ adopted son], you uh, talk with him the schedule. I’d like a place— I’d like you to keep their cages clean, a little extra, ‘cause school’s gonna come, and I want these children to do it, but I want you to follow up on them. Will you do that?
Herman: Yes.
Jones: Every day. I’m gonna count on you, to see that wa— we lose no more water here. People been going here, turning water on, had her over the side of the— had a hose over the side of the, uh the riverbed, and there was a whole stream running down of our precious water. And this is the driest season we’ve ever had. So you gotta redeem yourself now, man, someway. And the brother’s quite right. Your time— uh, time can become a great enemy to you, unless you are fully socialist, and most of the people in here don’t know socialism. And if you’re full of that, it’ll keep you straight when nothing else will keep you straight. Your conscience Socialism is God. God is Socialism, and I am Principle Socialism, and that’s what makes me God. But Socialism is more than just in a personal form. The deity of socialism is uh, impersonal and ever-present. And some of you see me too much after the flesh, (unintelligible phrase) see me after the flesh. You uh— I can look right at you, and you lie to me. You look right square in my face, and you see me call out to people, tell them the thoughts of their mind, you look right square at me and lie. And do it convincingly. And I’ve time and time again had people up like you, when they do stoutly deny, swear on everything sacred it wasn’t true, (Pause) and I’d show you uh, that they were lies, and you people still keep up— keep doing the same thing that they’ve done. You’re going to break down all discipline, unless I use every bit of my energy to watch for liars or to deal with every liar that I’m dealing with. (Pause) You can be a liar indirectly or directly. Some of you stage things in— to defend yourself, in council meetings, here or in Monday night meet— You stage set-ups to make yourself look good. Whatever it is, it’s still a form of treason. And I’m afraid of it. I’m getting so terrified of it, I don’t look close to some people I ought to feel. People who put me in a bad light (Pause) or attempt to, consciously or unconsciously, rather than to admit the one thing that has been said. And I repeat, and no one can be any more honest than this with you.
(Deliberate tone) I have never done anything with any of you, whatever it was at any time, that it was not to bring you to some growth. I never take advantage of any human being. Never have made any human being do anything, so don’t pose any kind of situations like that. But it makes me feel vo— grossly uncomfortable— Maybe at the time, I can’t tell you what I’m doing. But it’s a testimony to your strength that I work with you, bring out things in your mind, let you see yourself. Expose things about you to yourself that’ll make you stronger, to help others, because no one that doesn’t know themselves is not worth his salt. They can’t lead anybody at any time, unless they know themselves. And I don’t see very much carryover here of what I’d hoped (Pause) of really knowing oneself. I said, I’m disappointed from Sunday to Monday night, I was disappointed. I was really disappointed, from Sunday until Monday night, in council situations that came back to my attention. (Pause) Not because anyone volunteered it to me, or brought it to me, but because I had to get it. And I’m really lu— I’m really weary with this, and I want to say that Father Jones is calm, but that’s the most dangerous time. The calm come just before the storm. I’m about ready to blow. Now I’m— What I’m going to blow is, I’m gonna take care of people that are going to be honorable. If I have to put six-foot high fence around here, and stop every plan I had for outreach, and put an electric wire around here, I’ll keep out the dogs, uh, and (stumbles over words) I’m not talking about four-legged ones, ‘cause they’re sweet. I’ll keep out all of the rascals that are trying to do harm to those that want to work with me in principle. Doesn’t mean blind agreement with me, but work with principle, give me their word and uh, share and share alike. I’m tired of being wa— a watchman on the helm. This place, you’ve got to stand on guard of it— on top of it, night and day. (Pause) You say, no other church has to do that. Well, no other church ever did try to do anything about its dishonesty, just let its dishonesty grow and get so harri— heavy and thick that you couldn’t do anything about it, so no one ever would try to straighten out anything, ‘cause if you started to straighten it out, you’d have to tore the whole thing up. That’s how dishonest every movement’s been, up until now. And this movement can get that way overnight. I have to watch it every minute. And if you let this go a year, it’s— it’s— it’s gone.
(Pause) Now I had— I had some things that— right in the— in the helm of council. This week, I ordered something, I had a traitor here, (Pause) a minister, and I ordered him uh, how to be handled. And I told sisters how to handle him. (Pause) And I said, take that brother out and show him through senior citizen homes and so forth. But one of my own lieutenants’ ego for a moment got between him and what was good, because a sister told him, Jim doesn’t want that. He said, I said, it’s gonna be. So I had to spend long-distance calls today and get Sister Karen Layton to do some repair work, because of something that one— my closest cooperation. And I feel I’ve been let down by some of you that are in the closest circle. I’m really disturbed. I can’t— I can’t go out and jump on this man, and let down the fallen ways. (Pause) I just jot it down. I— I knew this was coming, though I wasn’t posted it was coming, so I made some notes to myself. (Pause) Let them in. Don’t let them stand there at the door. Let ‘em in. (Pause) I’m not healing anybody in the sense that I— I’ll be disrupted, but just let them move quietly. No chatting now, tell them very warm— uh, kindly, no chitchatting at the door. No chitchatting. Don’t— No, none of your amenities, none of your social amenities. I don’t want you greeting anybody. You keep your mind up here, and don’t you even look back there to see whom I’m correcting. You all keep your faces up here. (Pause) Now, ordinarily, there’s time for that, and we need to fill the atmosphere with love, but not— we’re— we’re in danger. This movement’s in danger. (Pause) And it’s not in danger from without, but from within. (Pause) Alliances that are being formed within the movement.
(Pause) We— I’m Principle. The marriage should be to me. I don’t need that marriage, and I don’t want that marriage, but the office doesn’t have anybody else to put in its position right now, so I’m here, and it— the first alliance and first marriage should be to me. Too many of you people (Pause) follow someone else here, instead of me, as a basic ideal. And I’m afraid of it. I like it, because it reduces some of my strain, my work. But you’re here with other contacts. You’re here because of some (Pause) uh— I don’t know how to make this, some uh, some other hero. And there shouldn’t be any heroes but Socialism anyway. You— you pursue this work through somebody else. You follow through someone else. You make alliances with people in my own staff and council, thinking that will make you in. You do favors for people in my council and staff, and I’m gonna tell you, frankly, I don’t think they’re wise enough to always know what’s going on. Many times, they are. But not always are they wise enough to know, that they’re being used. Little courtesies— I saw one of them done, just not more than a few hours ago, the one of the members of my board. And all they were trying to do was manipulate you, and you didn’t know it. You took it hook, line and sinker. (Pause) This is a terrible task we’re called to do, to be honest amidst a dishonest day, a totally dishonest generation. (Pause) And you’re gonna have to get convicted of my honesty, or you’re gonna have to get out of here. And all this kind of stuff, Herman, reveals to me, you’re not convicted of my honesty. You wouldn’t lie to me. You wouldn’t do these games if you were convicted of my honesty. Now— By this, I mean, if you were convicted of the— (Pause) the full measure of my devotion, that I put this picture up there. Each of these men in that picture to some degree gave their last measure of devotion. (Pause) I’d like you to talk it over and over and over, and you get it in your mind. (Pause)
You see, I have to give so much of my— my body and my mind, that if anyone will be sick, it’ll be I. If anyone will be baring infirmities or aging, it’ll be me, because I have to take on everybody’s problems. If I didn’t, I would never age. I think I could really whip it. I’ve got the keys. I— I’ve really got the keys to immortality. But instead of keeping it, I’m opening it up as much as I can for you. (Pause) But the risk is, in opening it for you, I lose it for myself. And I don’t mind that whatsoever, if you become what I am, in principle. If you become the kind of sensitive being that I am, then I’m happy to lose my life. (Pause) Some of you think it’s easy being God, you (unintelligible word) I can help people, I can help myself. Well, I can’t. There might be such a thing that I would be drawn on by such e— number of disloyalties as this, (Pause) or the disloyalties that I’ve seen in the last three days, (Pause) that I could have a stroke. Instructions are given. I will never permit being re— kept alive with a stroke. I will not allow it. Are you willing to do that? Some people recover from a stroke. I will not take— It’s only given a certain limited time, if, through hypocrisy and dishonesty and disloyalty, I am overdrawn and I am for any reason paralyzed or disa— disabled, there are only a matter of hours for it to get corrected, or I’m to be removed from the scene, and my mind will make its transmigration, its transmission, into another mind that I’ve— into another body that I’ve already selected. We’ve gone— already gone over that, (Pause) that there’ll be someone else setting in this seat. (Pause) Now, I’m not going to sit and let that happen easily. I’m getting mighty fed up with this, ‘cause I’m not dying for principle. I’m dialing for crap. When I see this kind of stuff, I’m not dying for principle. I’m not laying down my life to save humanity, if humanity doesn’t lift itself up. If you don’t become what I am— and I’m saying it to every blessed one of you, ‘cause you— I saw, and (stumbles over words) I’m not gonna free anyone in that council, I’m not gonna free a one, because I think I’m close enough to some of you to say, there wasn’t a one before that council last night, didn’t play games, one sort or another. You don’t level with me, or even in some cases, try to put me in a bad spot. (Pause) Try to get around rules and laws. It’s fed up with— You know you can’t quote anything unless you say who it is. You know that’s the rule. (Pause) And as I said, just this case, right now there’s some charge here, I don’t know, I’m going— I’m going to ask the brother just to try to show you what kind of principle we have. Man who I trust second to none, (Pause) if brother did this— I want to find out if he did this, ‘cause he did wrong if he did it. (Pause) And we want his words on it. We have no prior— we’re just getting his— his response right now. He’s over there working hard, uh, every day. (Pause) But around four—
Voice too soft.
Jones: I feel Archie made a statement last night that he should have— shouldn’t have made. Something with critical— made critical of, uh— made— a criticism made about one of the councilors, namely Karen. When we asked who said, he refused to say, so I assumed that you had said it, and told him that I was definitely assuming that you had said this, and he didn’t deny that you had said this. I got on him for this. As I said, he shouldn’t have said it, since it made me very paranoid. Though I told him that I did feel the statement was true. Other council members got on him too. (Pause) I feel Archie should have at least tried to deny that you said it, whether you did or not. Then he should have said he was sorry for saying it. But he wouldn’t deny it. Nor would he apologize for anything. Today around 4 PM, Archie called and said Jack [most likely Jack Beam] was the one who said it. He did admit it was a lack of character on his part for bringing this up to me. I didn’t see this part now— (Pause) (Casual tone) Oh dear. He just started crying after a while, and told me how hard he works and how people don’t appreciate— He said I should allow him to be a human being. He did apologize and ask that he c— what he could do to make it right. I told him to apologize to you, ‘cause I thought it was terrible that he let you thi— let me think all night and all day that you had said it. Well, he hasn’t had much time to take care of it. This part was on the part—
Woman: (Voice too soft)
Jones: The other council members— What?
Woman: (Voice too soft)
Jones: No?
Woman: (Voice too soft)
Jones: No? Why, what was he going to say about this, brother, what did Archie say? I’ve got big problems here dealing with him. It’s the core of the work. (Pause)
Ijames: I— I said it. I— And I shouldn’t have said it, as I said to her. And I also apologize to our (unintelligible word). (Pause) The fact that uh— (Pause) she began to press me was why it came to the point that I did, in terms of my emotions, and I—
Jones: What you should’ve said is this. And you know this. Because you’re a principled person, gotten a lot more principle in grasp, but in much more responsibility. You cannot be— At this stage, uh, the boat is rocking, you can’t be uh, indulgent in being a human being, ‘cause there too many human beings here. So you can’t be a human being. That statement uh— not crying was not in order, nor was that request that you be a human being. Because we’re in trouble here. This old ship of state’s in trouble. It’ll make it, but it’s in trouble. You shouldn’t have said uh— anyone said it— you should [have said], I think, Karen, that you are good at getting people to do uh, work, delegating work—
Ijames: I agree wi— I recognize that, and that was wrong—
Jones: —but you uh, sometimes re— uh (Pause) or something uh— I’m not going to quote all the phrase, not that it’s anything terribly, terribly indicting, it’s just— I want to say something to you people, too. I’ll take from you trust with a purpose. I don’t like cussing, just to be hearing it, (Pause) ‘cause you’re going to end up cussing at the wrong time, and I know exactly when to do it, and when not to. Some of you get the idea, that just because I cuss, that that is a kind of a grand license to cuss anytime you please, say anything you want to, just as vulgar and foul-mouthed as you want to be. Now, I am not foul-mouthed. I’m trying to break down hypocrisy. I only cuss to break down hypocrisy. Mother [Marceline] LeTourneau said — and she was a classic example of it — she said, when I was so upset about this cussing, I realized it was self-righteousness. It’s hypocrisy. She got the message. And she— I’m not cussing for her anymore. I don’t need to cuss for Mother LeTourneau. But there may be somebody else that’s a good soul in the making that I cuss for. But what are you cussing for, is the question. (Pause) Just to cuss. As a— And down there at the scho— the cur— the kids can tell you, when I say anything to my children, or anything I said, I say, let’s keep it— let’s keep it c— clear. Let’s keep the language improved. And we do it there. And it’s very hard for these children to understand that. I’m not talking, addressing that to you, Archie, that’s— I’m on another tangent now. ‘Cause you’re certainly not one of those that uh, is a terrible offender in that. But I did wish to say, it— there is some cuss words here involved, which I don’t think there’s any point in repeating. Some of you get a glee in it. You just get a joyful glee. And uh, at times, I think there’s a necessary freedom of repression. (Pause) But do it through me vicariously. Don’t go out and do your thing. If you need to hear something, and you need a little laugh, you laugh here while we’ve got a closed, controlled door, don’t you go outside in the houses and start cussing, and uh, creating animosities, because you don’t know how to break hypocrisy, or you don’t know how to break self-righteousness. I am the one knows how to do that, (Pause) and uh, it’s a tough job to do it right. And if anybody can do it, I can do it. You can’t do it. You’re only just going to create more disharmony by your, your language, and so I would uh— I’d cool it.
Man: (mike cuts in) Father, may I— Father, may I say—
Jones: Now, what I’m going to say to you, I want— I’ve got a responsibility. To that effect, (Pause) now that it’s out, and you want my opinion, and I don’t think you should have said what you said. I don’t think you should have said, that leaves me any— I don’t think I should have been discussed. I don’t think you should have reacted to it. I think you should have kept it cool, and if you’d had more faith in me, you would have kept your cool and talked to him. So now that it’s out, I’ll let you all know where I (unintelligible word), yes, I think it’s true. But I’m not the author of it. But I think that’s true, that you relegate work well. But sometimes you shift work, (Pause) and uh— now I’m not the author of this— this idea.
Ijames: That’s right. That’s right.
Jones: And I’m put in a bad spot here. But— so you won’t feel that paranoia, I’ll tell you right now, and I also think that if everybody worked as well as you did, I’d be in pretty good shape, if they all worked as well as you did.
Ijames: Mmm-hmm.
Jones: You still— But it’s the old thing of, from whom much is given, much is required. And uh, you uh— But you never get out of it, ‘cause uh, as soon as you shift, I’m always there. When you try to shift, now I sent you home early, and I came in. The very night I come home— come in, you went home early.
Woman’s voice too soft.
Jones: Yeah, I know, but it still works that way. Any way— Any way it go— Any way it goes, you— you— you’ll get caught in it, so, she gets caught in it, some of the rest of you don’t get caught in it, what I’m trying to say is, the more you uh, have responsibility, the more consciousness you have, the more these things come to your attention. You just get caught in it quick. (Pause) There was disorganization here, (Pause) and people didn’t know what they were doing here. And some of the other letter-writing people, when the leader leaves, uh, there’re just people running, and time wasted. That letter-writing thing is a— is— is go— it’s saved us time and again. Through following the instructions of writing some person, when we got into some trouble, we’d made a friend someplace, because I’d had some prior prophetic awareness, and we’d made a friend, we could call on that friend, be he a Senator, or whoever, we could call on that. I don’t mean a friend in a real sense. I’m talking about somebody who saw us as votes. But, as I said, if everybody worked as hard as she did, it would be fine. But the whole issue in front of the council, with two strong people — two of my stronger people — debating what I said or didn’t say, is perfectly asinine. And you should not have made this statement that uh— (Pause) although I don’t— (slurs words as he reads) it made me very paranoid. But I don’t think that’s just the way you said it. Paranoid about me. I think your implication was, you were paranoid about me.
Woman’s voice too soft
Jones: Everything we do — and I’m going to say this, just, I’ll just to be right down the line, so we can get it — everything we do, we don’t put it right in the right li— line. What you’re really saying is, you didn’t trust me. (Pause) Just like was said, when we got on council about homosexuality, one of you back there. You set up a kind of a set-up. And you tried to divert the situation to somebody else. (Pause) We set up things to make ourselves look good, then I’m tired of it, because I’m not trying to do it. I’m only trying to keep this office alive. Now if somebody else wants to take this office, tonight, I’m ready for you to do it, and I’ll be glad for you to do it, and I’ll make you look good, ‘cause I’m mighty tired of being the bad guy, and happen to be sick for hours because of the hate that comes my way, and taking this thing in. I don’t like sickness. I’m just like you. I don’t like to feel bad. I don’t like to feel bad. Right now, I feel bad. Herman’s (unintelligible word) got his subtle. His— his reaction’s a subconscious thing, it— but it’s there. I get negative energy from you. I’m mad. Or I’m embarrassed. Whatever. All of these things, whether embarrassment or mad, they come back at me as fiery darts. And I’m tired of it. And uh, I don’t have the characterlessness to withdraw. So you’re going to have to withdraw. (Pause) And I mean withdraw clear out of this country, so you better prepare to know where you’re going to go, if you get in any more trouble. You better make it clear, ‘cause you’re going to have to give up that job, and you’re going to have to go clear across this United States, (Pause) ‘cause I’m not going to have any more trouble around here. (Pause) (Stumbles over words) If I get my mind, uh, coordinated—
Woman speaks softly.
Jones: It was an orda— an ordeal last night that uh, as you know. (Pause) And we have ordeals around here. We got— We got life and death matters. We got political matters. (Pause) I can’t get through your head, (unintelligible word — sounds like “John”?), the life of my children. I’m involved in far more serious work than is in this room. (Pause) And I don’t appreciate what you hold in your mind. I don’t care what you want to tell— you can tell whatever you darn well please, whatever I have done, (Pause) I have done it, and I’m tired of some of you trying to make exceptions. There is no exceptions. (Pause) Whatever I have done with you has never been for selfish reason, it’s only to bring you to some point. I love you all. And I love some of you in such a way that as to give you a responsibility. You had to mature. You had to evolve.
One male: That’s right.
Jones: (Pause) And I’m tired— I’m mighty tired of this game, saying, well in here, dah-dah-dah-dah, he says this, but didn’t mean me. Or making some kind of a set-up that it doesn’t mean me. I meant you. (Pause) I meant you. (Pause) I repeat what I say, I have never based a relationship (voice fades for balance of sentence). And my wife has been the first to say that. (Pause) I have based my love for her or for anyone else on giving them what I felt they needed. They have in return supported socialism in one measure or another, but I have not needed anyone. I feel that is capitalistic. I will not allow that to build in me. (Pause) I feel it’s very unfair, to me. I’m not expecting that of you, but I don’t expect anyone to put me in that light anymore. I don’t need. All I need is to be [Henry David] Thoreau. I need peace. And I don’t need people. (Pause) [I] Can’t go into a situation where there’s— I want to go in— and I enjoy some situations more than I do others. ‘S true. Not that I enjoy the people any more, but I go in some situations— where I visited, uh, the homes in town today. (Voice fades) —here. Visited all their homes, ‘round through the area. And the only real en— pleasure I had today was Liane Harris, who’s in a cast. I walked in, and she said, “Wonderful.” You— And then she—
[Beginning of Q 955]
Jones: —started in telling me beautiful things. (Pause) Said, I want to work and she says, Rheaviana [Beam] just think I’m not working, uh, I’m working too much on budgets, and she says, I want to work there and she— (tape fades out; edit?) Little girl’s having this corrective spinal surgery, cast clear up to her neck, ‘cause she was born, one of these things of, you know, purity of races, we gotta keep pure, so she— her parent married Jewish, and pure Jewish and, and they followed the Hebrew line, you know, are they particular national Hebrew strain that she was a part of, so she’s got all kinds of genetic weaknesses. She’s got a weak back, weak heart, she’da died if I hadn’t corrected her heart. Her hearing, all this is (tape fades; edit?) business is, breaks down every time, she’s got a lovely mind, but her emotions were not really in good shape when she came here. That’s been a miracle of happening here. She was a self-centered person, and now she’s become a most outgoing soul. And Rheaviana out of love for her didn’t want her to work, but she just said, I want to work, I want to help you, said I’m looking forward to being (stumbles over words) in church, she said even though I’m in— in a cast, I— I can come. I can come to church. (Pause) Her whole role of life was— was cheerful. (Pause) (Tape fade; edit?) —enjoyed the whole live long day, because— not that I didn’t enjoy other pla— other things, but there’d be sporadic things said, or there’d be hurtful things said, one to another, or there’d be fusses, ri— ri— right down cussin’ outbreak in front of me, between children. Cussin’ each other out, right in front of me. And that— that’s always helpful to my peace. I’m sure you think I enjoy that. (Pause) I laugh sometimes because I don’t know what else to do. I’d go mad if I didn’t laugh. I smile, because I don’t want any more struggle. I just say, “Bless you.” I’m tired of fights. I don’t need fights. I’ve had them for— all these— lo these many generations, too many of them. And I said it, yesterday, I said it to a couple of my children, I— (tape cut off; edit?) street add— home yesterday. (Stumbles over words) A true follower of mine will be the one that goes the extra mile for peace. I said, the one that loves me most, will— loves the principle that I am will be the one that swallows their carnal pride and goes furthest for peace. Not the one that wants a tit-for-tat, actual breakdown of every little thing, ‘cause you’ve never get some people (tape fade) reconciled. The true follower of mine will be the one that makes peace. Swallows his pride. So I talked to some of the young ones coming on in— uh, today in leadership, you gonna— if you want to lead, you’ve got to take guff, (tape fades) crow, you’ve got to make people, you know, save face for them, and it’s a miserable job. And you can’t hardly be honest with your own staff. I did here tonight, but— and I can take that with honesty, I’m sure, Archie, but I don’t know what you’re going to do with the honesty, ‘cause (unintelligible word) jump in now, uh, he jumped on one of his own workers. So now that shows there’re nobody— nobody faultless, so I’ll do what I want to do. (Pause) So it’s a very tough thing. What’s going on back there?
Voice too soft.
Jones: Help— you need some assistance?
Voice too soft.
Jones: (Sighs) (Pause) And I— and I say this lovingly to all of you, to every guard I have, every security personnel I have, (undertone) I have another thing here affecting someone not immediately present, so I won’t go into it. (Pause) (Quiet voice) Until you love me enough to be square with me, (Pause) until you love me enough (tape fades) follow my example — and if you don’t know my example, I’d get out of here, ‘cause I, I sure got the backwash from last night, some of you don’t know my example. You haven’t realized how necessary it was when you’re in various consciousness planes (tape fade; edit) for whatever medium I had, to express love to you through whatever medium I had to express love to you. It may seem like harsh methods. (tape fade; edit?) —I’ve had to, I’ve been trying to bring you to love, to understanding, to feeling, to knowing yourself. (Pause) Now I’m saying this tonight, and I mean it, and it may mean the dismissal of my body. I want every gun laid down. (Pause) I don’t want a person to protect me in any way on these properties inside or out, until you work as hard (tape fade) inside. So let (tape fade) and lay guards do— I want the guards down. And I’ll take my chances. (Pause) And I know the risk of that, because enemies are within (tape fade), talk to one and talk to another, and then now, say it’s open day. It’s open day. (More emphatic) The guards are off. And I’m gonna take that chance. The guards are off. (Pause) Something’s gotta jolt this family someway at someplace. (Pause) Well, honey, you won’t get anything done, you— you say you don’t think you can be quiet and let that happen. Well, what do you— what’re you going to do to get people to do (tape fade) right. What— what’s going— what you gonna do to get people do right? Just talk? (Pause) Talk. Talk, council, council—
Marceline: (fades in) —you giving your life, if you can’t get them to— (tape fades). I’m for you pulling out. (Pause) This is where I am. (Pause) If these people cannot be loyal enough, if you feel that they (tape fades) out there to guard you, then what’re you giving your life for ‘em for?
Voices: That’s right.
Jones: Well, I think there’re people here that are.
Marceline: Well, then, can’t they guard you?
Jones: There— there’re some of them (fades)
Marceline: I’ll stand out there and guard you. I’ll—
Jones: No, uh— no, no, I don’t want nobody guarding. I don’t— I don’t want— I’ve made it (tape fade) —effecting verses, I want everybody to do self-analysis. There’re no guards. I’m— I’m on that, and I mean it. (Pause) We— (tape fade; edit?) not gonna be any guards.
Woman: (Near tears) I’m sorry for what I did, Father, I set a pur— poor example, and I’m sorry. And I’m trying to learn, and I think the council is wonderful, and they do work hard, and I wouldn’t even be where I wor— I wouldn’t be (tape fade). I’m sorry—
Jones: —fession, you know more than anything, I just want deeds and actions. (Pause) Deeds and actions. I’m tired of words, I am so tired of words, I cannot tell you how tired of words. Your words are not so bad, you make growth. But I don’t to hear anybody’s words, I don’t want a whole line upon line of up here, giving me a lot of confessions tonight. I’ve had confessions for centuries. (Pause) Yes, I, uh— (unintelligible name)
Male: (fades in) —want everyone to say.
2nd male: Well, I uh— (tape fades) I also occasionally use the language. (Pause) Think that the language of mine in the, in the text of the statement last night. However—
Jones: I wasn’t— I wasn’t referring to your language, I said that—
2nd male: Sure. However—
Jones: You’re being defensive. I wasn’t— I wasn’t saying that to you, and I said that, and you shouldna even brought that subject up.
2nd male: Sorry.
Jones: (Struggles for words) I’m— in a very plane of bu— bald honesty. I’ve got to keep it here. Only way you can shock these people is to gi— bring honesty right to home. Risk my life. Do something drastic with the— with the trusted followers, the trusted staff. Make their sins shows. Then take the chance that somebody else will use it for point of rebellion. (Pause) You’ve driven people out of here, in this church, for your— having your own thing. Allowing rebellion to breed in your own home. Having your own group of friends and encouraging them by your rebelliousness. And we’ve lost people in this group, because they’re not a tight-knit (Pause) (tape fade; edit?) in other words, you turn people out to alcoholism and drugs, you’ve turned them out to all kinds of hell, because (Emphatic) you would not uphold this office. I’m not a person. I’m an office. (Pause) An office. My deeds and actions by words. Little rebellions of all sorts and varieties. Little snide remarks. Rebellion. Grimacing looks. Or setting up stage plays to try to make yourself look better than you are. Over the same stupid business. Much of it’s over— all over on sex. You think somehow that if a person didn’t uh, (tape fade) sexual feelings, that makes them not a, um, strong person, or if they had a very strong mixture of something else, that doesn’t make them a strong person. I don’t know what in the world sex has to (tape fade), but you have been victimized by the worst brainwashing that have evers— has ever been known, capitalist brainwashing, that’s made you think that you got to protect your sexual identity (tape fade) as, and that— but you still try to protect it, one way or the other, on the floor, or after you leave the floor. (Pause) (Quiet tone) And if one protects it, everybody’s going to lose uh, the mark and the prize of high calling. They’re gonna lose it. Because unless honesty’s maintained one hundred percent, it won’t be ob— ob— obtained at all. (Pause) The chain isn’t any stronger than its weakest link, not a bit stronger. And we got more than one weak link. It’s the best organization on earth. It’s the best. Best group of people on earth. More honest people on earth. Get a straight answer. Get straight answers from people here. I thought today, someone who said to Peter, strong statement from (Pause) Joy. Very strong statement, about him holdin’ his head down in the other organization. And I thought well, that’s wonderful, he can say— she can say that to you in that sense, to tell you that, why did you hold your head down in the organization, because you knew too much? I thought, well, that’s beautiful that she can say that, but I also think that you— some of the words you use, you don’t need to say. Like when I said I was going to jump on you, I don’t think you shoulda said the way— way— jump on you which way. I don’t think you shoulda said that. That— that— that (tape fade) that, when you said that to me, ‘cause I— I— I’m— I’m trying to lift out of this sex plane, I’ve never been in sex with anybody at all, except for their own good. Nobody. ‘Cause I’m not— I don’t— I— that’s the truth. A hundred percent.
Woman: Voice too soft.
Jones: (tape fade) —bad mouth, your bad mouth, your bad words, your vulgar tone, I don’t care, but I do like your straightforwardedness, if you can also season that with love and (tape fade) kindness too, because the straightforwardness was— was— was very (tape fade), but when you say, you, uh, you think that I’m not— I— I— I suppose by my language one thinks that I don’t have embarrassment. I’m an office. I speak what has to be spoken. (tape fade) Yes, that’s all right. (Stumbles over words) know it. But a lot of you think that uh, because I can say anything, I don’t have any feeling. I speak what has to be spoken. But there’s some things that don’t fit in to my frame of reference. (Pause) When you ask me— I think the sister was— I’m using you as a point of illustration. It isn’t the worst thing that’s happened today by any means. I’m just trying everything that comes to my mind, let it come out. (Pause) You sa— (tape fade) You ask me what I would do if I didn’t like something, I said I’d jump you. That’s how it came up. I’d jump on you. (Pause) And I meant I’d give you a verbal lashing, just like you give everybody else.
Scattered laughter.
Woman: (Voice too soft) —confess my sin and not tell a little lie about it.
Jones: Well, that’s good. That’s good.
(Edit?)
Archie Ijames: I heartily concur with everything that’s come from the office tonight, and I see nothing but absolute fairness. Something I don’t receive anyplace else. And I’m grateful for it.
Woman in crowd: (Voice too far away)
Jones: Thank you. And now that— that— that’s— that’s real current thinking. Now, you’re in mainstream when you’re talking like that, you’re getting us back on course.
Marceline: Um, Archie, I would like to say one thing. I feel that, since the whole council was there when this happened, that calling Karen and apologizing to Jim was not enough, the whole council should have been involved.
Jones: Well—
Marceline: You know— Of course, it was brought up here tonight.
Jones: Umm-hmm.
Marceline: But uh, naturally it probably— it— it was refle— they naturally would think, if Jim was talking about Karen, they would— he might talk about them, that set up a—
Jones: All of the ramifications of— the ramifications of it are very very uh, extensive, but the fact has been that some of you have not been in a position for me to talk at the time, and pointed positions — not in this reference — but pointed things have had to be made, and I might so— said it to Karen or to Archie or to Jack, that has gotta be taken care of, because, at times, I can only take so much antagonism. But I’m gonna quit it. I’m gonna take all the risks that can be. I’m gonna tell you everything I think. And boy, that’s gonna be rough. (Pause) That’s gonna be rough. I’m gonna tell you just exactly like I see it. Just like (unintelligible word) say with Simon, who’s new. She’s told right, Simon, you covered sin in that old organization. You covered it. And you shouldn’t have. You shouldna done it. You shoulda broke before you did. And you know that’s right. And that’s — I’m gonna just tell it just as straight as I know how — you should— you shouldna covered the thing, and uh, just as I said to Valerie, she shouldna covered that thing with Father Divine. Somebody shoulda exposed him long ago, before people put up forty and fifty years of their life, they shoulda been told, long, long ago, somebody shoulda told what they knew. Because if somebody had told what they knew, long ago, lot of people would have been saved a whole lot of misery. And I mean a whole lot of misery. ‘Cause I know children that’ve gone through great misery because they did what they thought was right. They didn’t go when their children died. They didn’t go when their mothers died. They never went near them, never walked by them, wouldn’t speak to them, because everybody kept silent. Now I want nobody to keep silent. I’ve got nothing on earth — you’re trying to manipulate me — I’ve got nothing on earth I’m afraid to hide. I said I can do anything for socialism. Do anything. By inclination, the only thing I can do is to be an aggressive heterosexual with a man or a woman, I don’t care, whatever you want— be— be— you be the woman, I would do that for socialism. Anything else I’d do further than that would have to be purely (pause) purely because I— I— I’m willing to do it for socialism. But I would do anything in the world to save you. If some bunch of fools wanted to take me as the last living sexual identity, wanted to crucify that, I’d let them do it very quickly, rather than fight with them, ‘cause I know that preparing my body, keeping my body alive for you is far more important than fighting somebody off from raping me. That wouldn’t be of the least consequence to me, but if you want me— if— my orientation I have told you is that. I’ve told you what my orientation is. I’m not interested in anything else but being a— a— a— I’m a driving, thriving leader, a principled leader. (Pause) Principled. (Pause) Yes, Valerie.
Woman in crowd speaks too softly.
Jones: No, darlin’, I’m— I’m gone tell you— I’m tellin’ you— I’m tellin’ you just as straight as I know how. (Stumbles over words) Valerie, Valerie, Valerie? Listen. I think you’re wonderful. I like you, but that point, I don’t care who told me such uh— malarkey as that. When he put you in the bed (Pause) I’da said right then, something is wrong. Something is wrong, if he’s tellin’ everybody else not to be having sex and to live evangelically, not even touch, can’t even have any undue mixing, and I find that to be not even holding uh, anybody’s hands— Of course, uh, as some said, they had the courage to go ahead and hold hands, which I think is— is good, but I think in— (stumbles over words) if you look back on it, we’ll never be strong unless we face it. You should have at that moment said well, that’s not the kind of God I want. A God that tells you “No”— to say something— Don’t you say something, or if you do, you won’t get any more. That showed he had an ego bigger than the mountain. Uh, anybody that would say that— I wouldn’t dream of saying that. Nor would most of us in here say, well, now, here, I’ve given you something, and as you said, it was a miserable experience sexually, according to your interpretation, and you didn’t wish to uh, you didn’t wish to repeat it. You didn’t wish to repeat it. So the— the uh, uh, the fact that what he said to you, that’s the thing I took issue with, is— did I bear record right? I— that he said that uh, if you’d told it, you’d never get it again.
Valerie: That’s right, yes, Father dear.
Jones: Well, that’s when I woulda been (clicks tongue). I mighta been— I— And I empathize with you. I empathize with this thing, the build-up of God. I— I completely empathize, of him being God, and— but I don’t understand how God would be privileged to do things that his people are not privileged to do. I just don’t understand that. It never made— It doesn’t make any sense to me, how you people were to break every affection, every relationship— Now if he’da said I’m helping you to come (Pause) to sar— sharing, and he did this with a pointed, uh, purpose— but to say, you’ll get no more of it, I don’t understand this. (Pause) I just don’t understand what he was doing, other than— other than using you—
Valerie: I don’t un— I— (tape clicks on) either, Father. But (struggles for words) as soon as I found out that he wasn’t God, then the Spirit brought it forth. You know, I didn’t speak as a person. You know the Spirit brought that forth.
Jones: Yes, yes.
Valerie: The Spirit told it, not me as a person.
Jones: Yes, I understand. You need for honesty, and I think you did right, then to implement that by telling the world about it, back there. That’s where they need to hear it. They need to— they ought to hear the whole thing back here. (Pause) (Sighs) Well, of course, but uh, you— (tape fade) cannot uh— one thing you must not do is to hold feelings against someone when they have opened up. (Pause) Our hindsight is always better’n our foresight. Our foresight better’n our hindsight? Whatever, I don’t know. I’m not a philosopher tonight. (Pause) Yes, I guess that’s the way it is. Hindsight is better than foresight. Lot of things we woulda done differently, if we hada been able to do it differently. But now that it’s done — and I appreciate the ones over there in that home, for the most part I don’t see any kind of tensions. Things are better over there, aren’t they, for you? There been no tensions shown to you for your— your confession? That’s the way it ought to be. Whether someone approved of it or not, uh, that— that they should uh, be that way. We should be loving, and we should be forgiving, and we should be— people have to go the extra mile with— all of you. You’re sure as the world can go an extra mile for somebody else for uh, somebody else, ‘cause all— all of you not angels. I don’t see any angels budding wings around here. I mean, I don’t see anybody ready to fly off, so we got to be patient with everybody. And uh, this— this we— we are determined to do. But I— I’m just trying to be as s— straight as I know. Deal with things— ‘Course, I have— and my loyalty. There’s one thing too, I admire, is a principled loyalty (Pause) that will go along with something. (Pause) But if you know it’s error, then you should (tape edit?) stand by it until the end of your days. If you’re loyal to something, and (tape fade) right to be dishonest then, then be dishonest all the way. But uh— I don’t— I don’t feel that uh, (Pause)
(Sighs) (Under breath) Well, I never heard why— (Normal voice) talk and chat and tiddle and fiddle, read and hunt. (Pause) (Stricter tone) One thing I will say, too, that I don’t appreciate out of some of you. (Pause) Ah, listen, and gi— give me your attention. You newer people. When I expose my honesty and cut off people— we lost members the other night, we lost, I don’t know, 20, 25 people who didn’t come back. One lady from Sacramento wrote me the nastiest letter you ever read in your day. I know that law or justice will get her, but I don’t take you— I don’t take any satisfaction in that, justice is gonna get her. But I expose myself here, of all I’ve ever done, I just poured it out, what I would do. (Pause) Now I’ve told everything I did it the moment I was doing it, the people were able to take it. That’s why I’m trying to say, stop sex. I want to say that to you. (Pause) I want to say, stop sex, because I don’t want to get on that plane of selfishness. I’ve never been there. I’ve never stayed there. Any moment that I’d get there, it— it would leave. (Struggles for words) I’d begin to think about the well-being of the individual. So I said, I don’t want to get in that plane of being served. Women don’t like men, so uh— other than companionship, camaraderie, close camaraderie. I suppose the sexual orientation, closest I’ve ever seen is, you want pure sexual orientation on the part of the woman is in— in your mother, the mother of your church, and— (Pause)
(Tone of finality) That’s truth. If you want absolute pure sexual orientation— but even so, our relationship’s not based on that. (Pause) And uh— I’m no different than anybody else, only even much moreso, in the sense that being strong-driving person, I have, uh, a tremendous, tremendous drive. Tremendous drive. And that would— that’ll never change. I don’t suppose that ever will change. (Pause) But I’ve never used that drive for myself, is what I’m trying to say to you. Never have. You— if you— Proof of it is you marry and go into marriage without any sexual relationship, never having had one, you go into marriage, keep yourself true to one woman, until— 200 babies are starving. That’s a record for itself. Ten years, twelve years? Thirteen years. Thirteen years, no break in the vow. Thirteen years. No interruption. Only then when babies were starving to death (Pause) did we have to interrupt it. By mutual consent. (Pause) I’m— Certainly I— I have to maintain this office to some degree, and I— she has to maintain her office to some degree. And we’re gonna have to give the pre— proper respect for both these positions. That’s where they are. That’s where these positions are, and uh, we— we’re going to have to require that. But after my forthright honesty, (Pause) some of you don’t give me the respect that you gave former pastors. You won’t— you— you— you— you once smiled at me and were courteous. Now you’re not smiling at me. Not you’re not as warm to me. Now you’re much more insolent and smart-aleck. Some of you who did hear— whatever reasons for this in the former experience, that these things happened, uh, like with this sister. You followed and you were cordial, and you’d never thought of giving the kind of lip back to hi— to him that you give to me. You’d never dream of saying the things that people say to me. Now you’re going to hurt the office, if you do this.
Today, in two senior citizen homes, things were said to me that would— if other innocents had heard them, they might use it as a— an excuse to commit rebellion. (Pause) Now as I said today, uh— I got in some messes that were— I don’t like created— one— one of the homes got in the homes, just, just utter disarray. Disarray. Dog manure and that kind of stuff. And I don’t approve of that. If you can’t clean up— but over there, I was just cleaning, because they couldn’t get in to the uh, refrigerator and stove, woman couldn’t get up to that. Or climbing up on lamps. But let me do it. Don’t be making little chides about, well— let him do it. It’s his— you know— or making little fun remarks about it. Uh— Respect the office to some degree. Uh, no— no— no respect for the office, and if you don’t respect it, somebody’s gonna need to respect it, and— and it’s gonna be cut down at the wrong time, and somebody’s blood is gonna be on your hands. ‘Cause if I’m doing the best I can, if you’re not respectful for me, and someone else looks at you, and uses you as an excuse, you are going to have to pay for them. Do I make myself clear on this? I hope all of you stay awake long enough to get this through your heads. But as I said, it really does grieve me— I could keep a movement swelling by the multitudes and thousands, if I’d play games. (Pause) As Archie said it in a word, you’re the honest— you’re honesty personified. You tell what you feel. You tell it straight. You don’t color it. You— you’ll risk losing a movement. I’ll risk it. I’ve many times risked losing a movement— I don’t know how Archie’s going to react to a thing. I don’t try to weigh how he’s going to react to a thing. When I called him over here, I didn’t take any thought about he’s going react to a thing. I just knew right was concerned, and as bad as I need him over there, he’s my right hand or left hand, or whatever you want to call it— preferably left, being where I am. That’s part of my honesty. I would— uh, pre— preferably— preferably not have any chance of losing him, but I would’ve lost him tonight, if that’s where he was. I’d lose uh, Karen, as— as— as evolved as she is, and work, and involved, yes, both of them, evolved and involved. I’d risk losing Harold, ‘cause I don’t think he did something principled last night. I’ll risk any one of you.
(Pause) And Jim Cobb. I don’t anything went straight through that— that whole mi— uh, mission. I’m tired of— of— of all these little things, some of them are of lesser magnitude, others greater. And sometimes you’ll be very bold with truth, and then you’ll mix part of error and try to undo all you di— all you do, always saving an out for yourself, making a corner to get out, and taking risks. (Pause) Terrible risks, as the risk was taken Sunday. Their ego couldn’t stand a woman — couldn’t stand a woman — to say to them— or maybe not, but I think that’s what it is, subconsciously, that’s what I’m gonna say, anyway. Wouldn’t let a woman tell them, Jim wants it this way. (Pause) See, every place you go, it’s sex. So I say, for goodness sakes, child, let us try to rise above it. I wish we could enforce you rising above it. (Pause) And I need it so badly. And I go without it so freely. Why in the heck won’t you do it, when you don’t have any need at all? (Pause) You face the living-long lies. Some of you are young, you’ve got lives ahead of you. I face things like having to have the cyanide in the right place. (Pause) Not even trusting my own energy, ‘cause I don’t know how to use my own energy to destruct myself. I’m a healer. I wouldn’t know how to kill myself. (Pause) Wouldn’t know how to use my energy to do that. But bef— if you drain me dry before I’d let my body be incapacitated here, I would destruct myself. So it looks like, if I’m willing to not have a day ahead, not one living day ahead, (Pause) I— (Pause) (clicks tongue) nah, if you could, anything to communicate me, because what I’m really trying to do, and it’s hopeless, is with words, is communicate me. And (struggles for words) if I don’t get that communicated, we’ll have these dishonesties over and over again, because back to what I said, brother, your basic reason for lying to me, is that you don’t trust me. (Pause) You wouldn’t have lied to me if you’d trusted me. If you’d believed how dedicated I am, you wouldn’t dream of lying to anybody as honest as I am. Nobody would lie to anybody as honest as I am. If they really knew how honest I was, they wouldn’t do this. They wouldn’t do anything. They’d think constantly, not to do a thing that would— would hurt such an honest person. (Pause)
Marceline: I don’t know, I— (Pause) I can only say that I— sometimes I think, believing that someone is as honest as he is requires too much out of us. And so we have to project and see in him what’s in us.
Jones: That’s Mother’s wisdom. And that’s a point well thought out. I think that’s a very beautiful point of—
Marceline: Another thing I want to—
Jones: Now, that’s what I want you to see, if you had to follow her, uh, at any time, that— that’s— you see, you follow— you follow God. God is principle. God is intelligence, and then you gotta back it up with character. A hundred percent character. She knows that. There’re areas that I’ve dug into her about character. That’s why I won’t let a thing get by. Sunday, when there was a little problem, she was on the floor. I didn’t spare Mother, because Mother’s got to be in a position to carry principle. We’ve been through a lot worse than that. Lot worse disagreements than that. Time in our experience when things were so bad, her dependency on me, her following me as a— as a human being, as a sexual being, as a personal being, and I’ve had even to threaten to break our marriage, right before you, and Mother took it, because she was not following me as a principle, she was following me after the flesh. And her entanglements were on that basis. But she’s risen above that. (Pause) She’s doing things now, of a ma— magnificent new order, and wonderful new commitment uh, to her love to you, to do what she’s now doing, and you can’t— I can’t go into it now. I can’t go into an explanation of it. So it’s tremendous commitment. There’s an entirely new leaf, uh— She has taken these corrections, and now here she’s producing God. God is nothing but highest— highest truth. See, highest truth. She comes on with something here that I didn’t even say, that uh, I— (stumbles over words) ‘cause I’m too humble to see it, she can look off and see that. I can’t— I can’t see that. I— I’m— I’m really— I’m very humble, you don’t understand that. I couldn’t see what she just said, because I’m too much involved in it. She said you don’t want to be— see my goodness, because it would require too much of you. And I think that’s true. I think that’s true.
Marceline: The other thing I would like to say (Pause) is, that I don’t quite understand people. When you take out of your day, when sometimes you can hardly got the strength to drag across this parking lot, and go into these homes (Pause) and they would make remarks to you when you climb up to clean their cupboards— (Pause)
Jones: No, just only one little smart remark. (Unintelligible under Marceline) —smart—
Marceline: Well, I don’t know, I wasn’t there— I thing that especially people who have pastors— who have followed pastors and who have followed God in the other consciousness, who never would’ve bothered to climb up and clean a cupboard, and I’ve never seen a pastor yet that has, who would not have bothered to walk in to see you every day, to see that you’re doing fine, I do not understand this lack of respect. I cannot understand it. I think it— Life would be so much easier for him, if he would put himself up on a pedestal and stay out of your way, and then you’d look at him, and you’d respect him. But he’s too honest to do that. (Pause) Now I’m gonna say again, because I want to leave in your mind what I said before, I think you cannot see honesty in him, because it requires too much out of you, and you project in seeing him what’s in you.
Jones: Do you understand what she said?
Congregation: Scattered applause. Yes Father.
Jones: It’s— it’s— it’s a little deeper than—
Congregation: Applause.
Jones: (Conversational tone) It’s a little deeper than what one— one— one would really want to see. She said, you see in me what’s in you, because it’s easier that way. It’s an easier out to see the same kind of weaknesses in me that’re in you. You want to make a God in your image. (Pause) You don’t want to be made in the image of your God. You’re trying to make a God in your own image. And that’s why we have the King James description of Ja— of the Bible God. That’s why we got this God that hated, the God of jealously, the God that had slaves, because somebody made God in their image, instead of letting God, or principle, make you in the image of principle. And let’s watch that, as Brother said, that’s always a tendency, you want to make a God in your own image, instead of working towards something you can’t even relate to. You don’t know how to relate to me. Some of you have never thought of doing what I’ve done for truth. You’ve never been there. You wouldn’t begin to give your life. (Pause) Well, none of you. None of you have uh, have thought in the totality. I cannot— I don’t like to make blanket judgments, because in some areas, you’ll have strengths. Some of you got very strong strengths, comparable to mine. (Pause) Very comparable. But in the total personality that I am, you— you won’t make this commitment. You can’t make it. You won’t face what I face every day. I was thinking today, through lines of— (Pause) Well, I don’t want to go into it, (struggles for words) it’s too painful to go into it, I’m not gone do— But something I would do if I had to do, and I’m tired of tootin’ my horn, ‘cause it doesn’t do any good. Go on. Uh, wha— what’d you wish to say? (Pause) You’ve got work to do, and you said all— you said a mouthful. (Pause) And I once say in answer to his uh, last strength, uh charge to him, that one thing has been bad. Because you haven’t been— and it creates this kind of environment, where he can say something (Pause) that somebody else says, that because people in here generally have not been able to take it right from my shoulder, (Pause) there has been at times discussion of things when people weren’t present. So let’s cool that. Let’s cool it. Stop it right dead in its tracks. I don’t know how you’re gonna do it, ‘cause too many people follow me jealously. (Pause) (Clicks tongue) Whew. I— I— I’ve never seen the like of this. (Pause) They follow me jealously. (Pause) Sisters’ll do a lot of work commitment. We’ve admitted, I think even the brothers admitted, the work commitment’s more on the sisters. But there’s jealousy between sisters, you cut it with a knife.
(Pause) Cut it with a knife. You don’t want a thing from me, supposedly, but principle. That’s all you’re supposed to want from me, is principle. But jealousy— if I— I— I’m getting pl— it— it’s— it’s tragedy. I can’t go in and uh, even hug or uh, kiss anyone— I don’t know what to do. Did it again to me today. (Draws out sentence for emphasis) Every home did it to me today. Somebody did it. (Pause) I gave the affection the way I felt to give to give it, and somebody said, you do it this way. (Pause) You’re gonna fix me up, till I’m not gonna touch anybody. ‘Cause I really feel like giving you love. But don’t tell me how to show it. (Stammers) I— I— I can’t deal with this, uh, so, the way out is to just lay off of any affectionate display. (Pause) I said— they— the— I mean that. In every place I went, somebody today either grabbed my face and put my lips to theirs, (Pause) and uh— I’m not revolted by it, I’m just disgusted that you can’t see a love on a higher plane. ‘Cause it takes a whole lot of higher love to feel as I feel for you. (Pause) But you just can’t get that till you been out there. It’s very hard for some of you, children, you’ve never been in sex at all, and been so many years you been there, you haven’t been— you just— you just can’t relate to this. But it’s a much higher level that I feel for you, than sex. Much higher. (Pause) ‘Cause I’m— I— I— as I told you, there’s two parts to me. A sexual-driving person. I could take care of every woman in this room tonight — there’s been proof of that — physically. But that wouldn’t be my highest love for you.
(Pause) (Clicks tongue) That’s why I never have been able to do it. If there were sexual pleasure, I’d feel the guilt about it. Because it was too self-centered, and then I’d start to work, and it’s too big a work, you can’t do— you can’t give ‘em the, uh— you can’t be father, mother, husband, uh, what you are— all that is needed, from a woman to a man. You can’t be that for everybody. And then if you’re God on top of it, they expect you to be it— even a hundredfold times more in every other area than anybody else possibly could be. (Draws out sentence for emphasis) So you have to meet every living need, just exactly right. You’ve got to hear all their problems, and answer them just right. You’ve got to be cautious not to make one mistake. (Pause) So don’t get me on a sex plane, that’s selfish. If I ever quit this work, I’m gonna announce it. And I’ll have the— you’ll le— you’ll hear— you’re hear— uh, hear it, you won’t need to worry about it, I’ll— I’ll announce it, wide and clear. (Pause) And I’ll uh— for two weeks, I may pursue my physical energy. Two weeks, I’ll pursue it wildly, then I’ll settle down again. (Pause) Did you hear what I said? I’m just tellin’ you how it would be. ‘Course I’ll never quit it. I’ve got too much character. And so some of you, you gotta have that experience, go on and do it. If you think that’s what it is, go out there and do it. Be sure you can get yourself back home, though, when you get through. One of our (Pause) people wanted to go out in that sex realm, they end up gettin’ their brains beat out in a hotel room in Oakland. They thought they could get it free, and they— they— they wanted to go try it, and they— oh, they thought they had found it, had a romantic love. And after it was all finished, they got robbed, didn’t have a stitch of clothes, and got their brains beat out, right in the clu— in the, in the, the hotel room. They held— they hauled them out on the morgue. Hauled them out to the morgue.
(Sighs) (Pause) (Clicks tongue) Nah, I wouldn’t— I wouldn’t— I— If I went— If I had my choice, if I quit this work tomorrow— I’m trying to be just as utterly honest as I know. (Pause) The sexual need is there, if I couldn’t be creative. (Pause) But I— I do believe, if I could quit this work, and there was somebody to take my place, I would surround myself with little children and animals and senior citizens. (Pause) The real little ones, and then only if I could rear them. Not— and now I don’t have enough time to rear them all. But I sure wouldn’t want to rear them through other people’s uh, hands or face or eyes or minds, but rear them myself. (Pause) ‘Cause I could do a pretty good job. I’d just get enough that I could handle. I’d get me a few animals, and I’d get as far away in some wilderness as I could (Pause) because I like the wisdom of people who’ve lived longer. Some of us— some of you’ve learned something. Some of you’ve lived 70 years, and haven’t learned a thing. (Pause) Then some of you’ve lear— lived 70 years, and it shows, and it’s nothing so beautiful as the process of years. It’s beautiful. (Pause) If you learn something. If you don’t learn anything, you’re just as ugly as all the rest of folk. (Pause) That’s why I said — and I repeat, there were some wasn’t here last week — I didn’t have any further proposals, but I want this to get all around. See, the government meeting is less tonight than it was before. People don’t like truth. They don’t want truth. They don’t want truth. So the government meeting’s down tonight. We lost members over my forthrightness. But the week before last Sunday, when the young woman who was offering herself to me, and uh— I thought (Pause) yeah, I’ll take a young woman, quick. (Snaps fingers) You want a quickie? Boom, boom. I’ll give you a quickie. But I don’t want to wake up with you. (Pause) Get the straight talk now, you get what I’m saying? Yeah, I’ll take a quickie with you, but I want to wake up with somebody that’s wiser, (Pause) more experienced, more mature. So don’t, young thing, think that you got anything to give your father.
‘Cause you can’t get it unless you’ve lived a while. You can give your father loyalty and virtue and honesty and justice. You stand for the right as you see it. But don’t be so presumptuous as send up a letter and say you’ll take care of me sexually, that uh, you— you— you’d be glad to offer yourself. (Pause) Because I— I— I’ve got a bigger imagination than you anyway. Probably. And I don’t want no more of it. And I’ve been— I— I’ve been getting on average of one kind of proposal like that every weekend. One or another thinks that they— And it’s bad, because of you— you should put up with that, I suppose, that’s why some leaders do put up with it. One got mad and went off in a bus week before last, sat out there on the bus, real angry, ‘cause I didn’t uh, bow to her approach. But I’m too bored to fool with people that don’t know anything more than uh, how to manipulate the thing underneath their clothes. I want some communion with mind, I want some fellowship with somebody’s got some love and understanding and experience and— and uh, grasp of world issues, that are concerned about the problems around them, I— I— I— I said— when I say this, you can’t seem to get it. You see one set of breasts, you’ve seen most part all. You— and there’s certainly no difference between the uh, aperture or the opening between the legs. (Pause) No difference. Not a bit. (Pause) I’ve seen it. I’ve seen it. I don’t want no more of it, so go just— just leave it— just leave it where it is. I don’t want to go back to that old plane. (Pause) ‘Cause I m— I couldn’t go back to that old plane. I might live longer if I went back to that old plane. Funny thing is, some of you die from trying to have sex, and I live if I had it. I could relax, you know, just go out and (stumbles over words) I— I’d do a lot of things I could relax, just go out and run through the woods. Whole lot of things. I— I don’t need just sex. Go on a boat ride. No, not very long one, because I get bored. Be people on a boat, wouldn’t there. If I could take their— If I could— If I could swim out with the dolphins, probably I’d have good time. (Pause) But there’re a number of things I could do for energy release. I mean, pure energy release. But most of you with sex, it— it isn’t a quickie, you know. Or if it is, it’s a hostile thing. You leave someone cold and out in the c— out— the state of frustration. So what you uh, you do is make more health problems for you. But actually, I need that release and on my love won’t let me take that release. (Pause) But I’m gonna be very honest with you, so I won’t get that release, ‘cause no woman wants just to be a thing in bed, does she?
Voices: No.
Jones: So my honesty again cuts me off again from getting anything in bed. Nobody’d want to come to me, ‘cause I just told you, if you’re young and beautiful, I want to— uh, maybe that— I might like your body, but that’s all I want right now, ‘cause you haven’t had enough time to get anything else. (Pause) Now that’s straight talk. You won’t get that kinda talk anywhere, ‘cause I’m cuttin’ off— I got opportunities. Baby, if I wanted to live this thing up, I could get— I could say, come on, God says (stumbles over words), there’s a couch over there, you go and lay down on that couch, and the Holy Spirit’s gonna come in unto you. Oh, foof. (Pause) Such dirty stuff. Using an office like that. If I ever come to you, I’m gonna say, God’s hot, and he wants something, will you accommodate him? (Pause) Hmm? That’s the way to do it. But I’m not about to be bothering you, so don’t get nervous. (Pause) (Stumbles over words) But don’t do— bl— this foolish stuff. The Holy Ghost doing this and the Spirit doing that, and God doing that, and making something holy that just as y— human and just as profane, and just as low as any other monkey or— or any other human ever walked, then try to make it holy. (Pause) And there’ve been movements on it. Really is discouraging. Here we are, the few of us, but least we do feel like we get to know uh, each other to some degree, and I got s— something to tell you. Uh— There’re going to be lesser of us. ‘Cause I’ll do it. One day, you’ll get me fixed, and if you won’t give me any peace here, I’ll take the little ones here that will, older and younger and in between, and we’ll go someplace, and we’ll put us a s— high electric fence around us as possible (Pause) and whatever else we need to deter anybody from coming in on us.
(Pause) ‘Cause I don’t want a mass movement of people that can’t uh, know themselves, ‘cause ven— eventually the movements don’t last. We may be small, but we’ll last, if we’ll build on principle. (Pause) We’ll be able to survive. Won’t be in such a mess as I said over there in my uh— just grieve here, and I’m talking about the property, what they’re going to do with the property, uh, because not enough people for the property to go around, gonna have to get the money for the property, and should get the money from the property back in peace mission. Think of all those millions of people. Now they haven’t got 300, because they didn’t know where in the wor— which way the wind was blowing. No one really knew anything, didn’t know where it was at. So now they wou— they went after the flesh — thank you — they went after the flesh, and now they’ve gone— got enough people to keep the buildings. So, for a while, it may have looked like a mass, but now it’s a mess. We may look like a mess, but we can be a mass, if we’ll build on right, if you get to know me, and get to know my character, you’ll stand, whether I’m in the body or out of the body, what I’m doing, you’ll stand on, and more than that, you might come and do what I’m doing. I might be able to teach you how to be God, and I can send you over someplace else, you can be God over that territory. If you’d ever grow up, I’d send you out and make you God— I’d say, I’m God in California, you’re God in Nevada. (Pause) (Under his breath) You don’t understand. (Normal voice) You don’t understand what I’m saying. I can create you in my own image and likeness, if you’d let me. Now I can’t give you my gifts, my power, but I could make it look like it. I could send you out in my name. (Pause) But you gotta grow up. And last time I mentioned that, why, the people come up here— clowns. Clowns wantin’ me to send them out. (Pause) Clowns, didn’t have any love for anybody, like that s— silly woman here last Wednesday night, stood up here and said she’d like me, she had a gift like me.
Murmurs of derision.
Jones: Afore she got through, she’d lost something, couldn’t find it. Lost her camera, couldn’t find it. That night— and fell out on the floor, ‘cause her camera was lost. Fell out there on the floor, bemoaning her state. She was like me. (Pause) So, get on with the business of character control. Get to the place where you can control your appetites. You really don’t know— some of you don’t know what this is, you’ve never had an appetite. You gotta have it, then you control it. Control your drives, control what you want to do. Control all those things that pull on you, to such a degree that you can control all of the pressures that come to you, that you can turn them of— down at least, and keep your course. That you won’t lose your course, that you’ve got control over everything that influences you. You’ve got to be in that position, so that something can’t get you off. (Pause) Now until you do — and stop playing these games, I’m not gone deal with people tryin’ to put up in a sexual image, or trying to move from one flower to another, and then say, well, I’m homosexual, think that takes care of it. That’s what a lot of this business is, say, I’m homosexual tonight and then out tomorrow will be flirting with somebody. Better not be, ‘cause if it comes back, boom. This council will deal with it.
Single voice: Right.
Jones: Get it in control. If I see you can get things in control, I can send you out. I want to send some of you out. We could reproduce this thing. We could extend this thing. I could trust you. (Voice rises) I’m trying to see how much I can trust you. I’ve got to get you to know yourself. I wish I was big enough to go to bed with each one of you, in the sense of not sex, but just time to talk with you, time to communicate with you, and show you a lot about yourself. Things you don’t think you know. Some of you women think you’re free of this experience. I could make you realize that you got the same identity problems every other woman’s got. I could get you close to it. I could take every man with the driving sex I’ve got, and make you realize how passive you are. I come on to you, you ju— you might not be the particular body prototype that you like, but when I got through with you, you’d realize you’re passive. (Pause) You understand what I’m saying?
Several voices: Yes, Dad. Yes, Father.
Jones: (Voice returns to conversation) When you get up against utter strength, there’s going to be passivity. (Pause) And I’m the most utmost of strength, but I can develop it in you. (Pause) But not after this image of what we thought the outward appearance, not by a clothes style or swaggering or (Pause) the way you handle a car, or the way you can— (Pause) your stances or your affectations with women, or brothers, or the way you carry a gun, or whatever. It’s something far different from that. And I beg you, I beg you to come into this school that I’m teaching. I’m the Godship degree, or the socialist-ship degree. And I’m trying to get some people ready to do my work. And all of you can do this. Some of you can’t sing. We might have to send singer with you. I’ve used my voice to do everything, destroyed it. (Pause) But we could get some character control here that would enable us to really expand this movement till it’d never be able to run out. (Pause) Now, because nobody knows who’s the leader is of the Mission East, we got no leader. (Pause) Father told me in the corner, the man was on you. Told me and s— I’m sure, I— I’m sure that uh, Mary must— St. Mary heard him. But she not gone tell it. So never anything was ever told publicly. I thought today I’d tested your spirit, did uh, Father have you doing Social Security, (stumbles over words) I mean, the peace mission had you doing Social Security on those children, tellin’ ‘em not take Social Security. And this kinda stuff— well, this is only coulda been exposed— this could only been exposed. (Pause) It made a— the things that you had to do behind the scene, that this coulda been brought out. (Pause) (Sighs) But no— no lines of authority. Mother wasn’t even told she was to be the— the head of that movement, that just some assum— assumption, they said, listen to Mother, but she certainly was never told to be God. No one ever— he never even suggested she be God. Said, I lifted you up, you could fall. I’m not quoting him exactly, and certainly he would know what a fall was, ‘cause he took some. But (Pause) today we have no real work of socialist-se— ship or Godship degree on the East coast, and I’m grieved over it. So— some say, why are you preoccupied with it over there? That was supposed to be a glowing work, that’s on my mind. That’s not supposed to go the way it’s going. (Pause) That’s terrible the way that’s gonna go. Dying like flies, and no use to take on the— on the reins. We were meant to get ourselves together, so we could extend the work, but it’ll never get done, because no clear established rules— and there was too much build-up of one personality. Build up one personality, till no one could do anything. So why you’ve got to get to place where you can do things. This council has to be trusted. People’ve try to circumvent this council, say, I ca— I won’t go to the council, I won’t tell the council. Yes, you will. Because we’re gonna have to have other people that have the authority in this group (Pause) and if the one— you can’t trust one of ‘em, then tell me who it is, and we’ll throw ‘em off, till you get somebody up here you can trust.
Voice in crowd (Marceline?): They’re all trustworthy.
Jones: Well, true. (Pause) But I’m saying, let’s correct anything tonight you don’t like. Let’s have a real knockdown drag-out, and correct anything you don’t like, so that you can get everything up here straight. If you don’t think somebody up here don’t belong, you let— let ‘em know what’s the matter, and we’ll try to correct it. I’m gone say one thing right off the bat. There’ve been a report to me, and — honest — that some of you who are on this council leave at one o’clock in the morning. Or noo— midnight. Or you leave when you please. You are not so privileged. If you’re on that council, you are to stay all night long. You leave when everybody else leaves. That applied to you, and Grace Stoen. That’s who I was told about. (Pause) That you leave early, and she leaves early. You and Karen. That’s what I was told. See, I’m, uh— we’re gettin’ out of this realm, what I was told. Who told me? Uh, who did tell me? (Pause) I don’t— you told me? No, you didn’t tell me. (Pause) Did you tell me?
Voice too soft.
Jones: You didn’t tell me, though. What are you tryin’ to do, take the blunt? You didn’t tell me. (Pause) I’ll tell the truth on you, I don’t think anybody told me.
Voice: Yes (unintelligible)
Several voices compete, too soft.
Jones: Well, (stumbles over words) sometimes I don’t know whether I’ve been told or (unintelligible phrase). (Pause) You didn’t tell me. You can swear on your life you didn’t tell me, you hope you drop dead, you didn’t tell me. What’d you say— what made you think uh— you— you’ve had such a thought. But you didn’t tell me. (Undertone) Now, I— no. All right. (Normal) All right, well, uh, uh, now see, that cause division. No— nobody got any privilege to leave this council— if one gotta stay all night, we all gotta stay all night. Now I want you people to be able to take it quickly, so that they can get on with their work, and not have to prolong things. There’s too much— ‘course, not all the people here in the council— maybe this can be replayed for them. Don’t have any uh, unnecessary rhetoric. Get to the point. But if you’ve got disagreement with some member of the council, you stop that meeting right there. (Pause) Dead. Stop it dead. And say, I— I want to have a pause, and uh, then you can dismiss whoever you’re talking to, another room, and iron out the difficulties. ‘Cause I know that sometimes council’s going to see things differently. You’re not going to think that it’s going the right course, and uh, you— you have privilege to stop and discuss that. (Pause) Yes.
Long pause. Low conversation in church.
Jones: All right. I— I just throw it out that— this— this occurred to me. I know you’ve got other things to do, both you workers got other things to do, but we’re just try to have this kind of frank— frank discussion.
Voice too soft.
Jones: Yes. Yes. Certainly. (Pause)
Male: I wanna— I wanna get— I want to get all the bridges burnt behind me tonight. (Pause) (Sighs) I’ve se— I’ve seen the love (Pause) of this Father who sits in front of us, so keen, and that I’ve trampled it like pearls before swine. I’m a homosexual. I’ve had active homosexual relationships. With a man. And I tried to hide it. Father knew about it, and he told me about it. (Pause) But I kept trying to hide it, ‘cause I wanted to be this image of a man that I thought was supposed to be an image of.
(Tape edit of unknown duration)
Jones: Now, you are.
Congregation: Applause.
Jones: That’s straight talk, man, straight talk.
Male: I’d rather leave this work than jeopardize you. My children look up to you. (Pause) I’ve looked up to you. (Pause) But I’ve been an ass. I misused it. (Pause) (Sighs) I’ll— I’ll take a minor role, I’ll help any way I can to see that everything is done the way it’s supposed to be. ‘Cause I’m not a man yet. I’m trying to be.
Jones: Now, let’s get out of this—
Male: I’ve seen— (Unintelligible word) I’ve tried to be a human being. I’m not even a human being.
Jones: —this man. You— you— you’re not mature. You’re not mature. You’re— you’re mature enough for me to uh, place a gun in your hand tonight, and I wouldn’t have 15 minutes ago. So you can have— you can have a gun. As of tonight.
Congregation: Applause.
Male: I saw something tonight that I haven’t seen for a long time. And I don’t know why I’m so thick-headed. (Pause) (Sighs) Now I fooled around with five or six women in this church, trying to prove something. And I didn’t prove anything. Just how weak I was. (Pause) (Sighs) So I want to be strong. I saw character last night, and I saw character this afternoon in Jim Bogue. (Pause) I saw him reflect Father. I thought I was someplace one time— hmm—
Jones: He— I didn’t catch that last phrase— I didn’t catch that last—
Male: Jim Bogue’s— I said I thought I was someplace one time. I thought I was evolved. I may have been, but I sure regressed. ‘Cause I saw more character in him than I’ve demonstrated for six months. And I appreciate that, Jim.
Jones: Thank you.
Male: I, uh—
Jones: Glad to know about it. There’s a public record myself, because it’s so inconsistent with what he showed out there when I didn’t even know him. (Unintelligible words) other thing.
Male: I just want everyone to know what I am, so that I don’t have any chances to make any backtracks from this night on.
Jones: Well, thank you—
Male: I want to be a friend to you as (Pause) as females and a friend to you as males. I don’t want to play any more games. Father’s right.
Jones: God (unintelligible)— They need some friends. They need some friends.
Male: I need friends.
Jones: We all need—
Male: I’ve alienated myself from you, so you couldn’t even be a friend to me. Father’s found it hard to be a friend to me, because of the way I treated him. Well, he hasn’t found it hard to be a friend to me, but I— I’ve just alienated myself so badly. (Pause) I’m sorry, Father.
Jones: Thank you—
Male: I apologize, council, because I misrepresented, and I didn’t tell the truth last night. I think I’ve told the truth tonight.
Jones: I think you have done very, very well.
Male: Thank you, Father.
Congregation: Applause
Jones: And— I don’t— I don’t suppose that Jim Bogue has a— a gun, but he oughta have— Does he have one? Does he have one?
Bogue: I have one.
Jones: Is he licensed?
Bogue: No.
Jones: We ought to process him, when a man with that kind of character— I saw the character in you before— in his endorsement of you, because he has been with me 20 years, and I trust his judgment in a lot of ways, in spite of his, as he said, regression. And anybody can digress— Digress is probably more fair, much more fair word— be diverted by one little point of— one little area of unreconciled behavior problem can get you off course. (Pause) Doesn’t blanket— uh, blot out your character points and strength in other areas, but it certainly can divert your energy. Um— so now, that— that— I feel good about them, because I un— unhesitantly said that there would be no gun, but now I can say that there’s one. And that applies to all the rest of you, I uh, I want to hear more about your knowledge of yourself, some of you have not— some of you out there not been confronted with all the things you’ve done, um, all that have guns, I— I’ll have to have some proof that you really are in alignment with what I’m doing. (Pause) and understand me and communicate with me and feel like I feel. ‘Cause I’m going through this thing with guns, right down the line. I want to just— prove one here tonight, and it’s going to be one by one. Yes.
Male: (Emotional) Father. I want to thank the council and all the things that’s happened in the last day or so. For the first time in the 18 years, which will be eleventh of this month the wife and I have been married, that we have— I believe we have felt true honesty with each other this morning. I believe now that we’ve— will have a relationship that we’ll be able to build up on. And I thank you, Father.
Jones: And that’s wonderful. That’s wonderful. Thank you.
Applause
Jones: You know— I don’t like to remember his experience because it uh, brings to light other people’s mistakes and people’ve far redeemed those mistakes since then, but I don’t want to ever forget the experience of this man. Some of you never were around when it happened. (Pause) I went away for a little while for a meeting for a few days, and I had instructed the (Pause) church officers not to allow any gift to be received of surplus foods. (Pause) Well, some one way or another, people forgot it or did what they chose, uh, through, uh, ego, and we got in a mess. They accepted surplus foods. This brother was one of those trucks, and they’d drive in an open noon-day, just like they was doing the right thing, right down through the main town with truckloads of surplus food. Who should see him but the head of the surplus food program. Pulled him over and stopped him. The only— only ordeal we’ve ever had in this group, it looked like, gone tear us up. (Pause) Everybody from (Pause) the local welfare people to the United States Department of Agriculture was on our back within a matter of hours. I want you to hear this, because there’s a lot of things come into play on this subject. (Pause) Everybody was on our back, and this man was the only one they caught. And he wouldn’t tell on anybody else. And I didn’t know him hardly. He and I had never said three words to communicate. He didn’t know his Father. I never healed him of a fatal disease. He just had taken me purely by faith. He didn’t know I didn’t send them out there. He didn’t know a thing about it. He wasn’t the one that violated my instruction. It was one of my officials that told him to go out there, so he thought I told him to go out there. On the contrary, I told him not to go out there, but he’s out there. And he never told who was out there. Little dirty snakes, that’s how much— how little they appreciate honesty, too. They oughta been able to see it. They wanted to railroad him. (Pause) (Speaks slowly) He held his ground. He would not tell anybody else. If there was anybody else, he wouldn’t tell it. (Pause) And then— out here in the aisle, in the driveway, they wanted to uh, then divide me by saying well, if you weren’t here, and we’ve established that, you didn’t know anything about it, if you’ll send— let him take the blunt of it, it’ll be all over. He’s the one we’re after. (Pause) I said, no, you take him, you gotta take me. And then Tim Stoen, who was assistant attorney spoke up and said, yeah, and you gotta take me.
Male voice in crowd: That’s right.
Jones: And all those boys looked around at us, and thought they’d never seen anything like this. We’re going to have to take one, you’re going to have to take ‘em all, and uh— and uh— they could tell adamantly in our voices, that’s exactly what we meant. They gonna have to drag him— in fact, I expected and knew they’d have to drag him away from us if they tried to take him, ‘cause we looked very, very determined in our position. (Pause) And the only thing saved us there was letter-writing. That’s one of the reasons I’m bringing this up. Support. We’d sent letters to people who were in the right places. We’d voted for people as I had been told. And if we hadna voted and supported ri— right people, it came up, we were ready to be blasted. And those politicians runnin’ interference for us, and saved our— the enemies from hittin’ us, ‘cause we had done nothing wrong. We had a right to take surplus foods, but a little technical thing in which, uh, uh, we’d violated this r— uh, statute. And they coulda sent us up the river. That’s why I never would let this— and I don’t want no surplus foods now, and get that across, don’t you bring no surplus foods here. Not even a can of it. ‘Cause you’re not allowed to give those surplus foods to anybody. If they’re given to you, they’re for you only. And you better understand that. Every now and then, we got to— we got to take something and dump it. We dump it. They bring a can in here, we won’t— we won’t di— distribute it.
Male voice in crowd: That’s right.
Jones: Don’t you bring anything that says Surplus— U.S. Surplus Foods. You have to use it yourself. It cannot be given anyone else. But I uh— I thought it was indeed wonderful that here, I— people had followed my instructions and we did have certain in— people we’d influenced, and when they tried to put the ax on us, we had those people fight all the way United States Agriculture Department. They didn’t give up easily. U.S. Agriculture Department came back after him again at his door. He wouldn’t talk. Several times they came. He wouldn’t talk. He shut the door. Say, I ain’t got anything to say to you. (Clicks tongue, like door closing) They come over to me. I said, it still stands the same way. We’ve done nothing wrong. Do you want him? You gotta take me. You gotta take the whole church. And I never will forget the last time that Agriculture Department man was here. He shook his, um— scratch— scratched his head, he said, I’m glad somebody else is taking my job.
Congregation: Laughter.
Jones: And that’s the last I ever saw him. ‘Cause he didn’t know what to do with us. And that’s been — what — two years ago? Something like that. (Pause) So it pays to follows instructions and it— one thing it pays, never be divided. That’s a classic example of uniting a front tonight, brother. Bringing in the uh, short ends. Archie did the same thing before he went back to work. He said (unintelligible word) defensive— we attacked him about his defensiveness— he just shut it short, he says I’ve seen honesty like I’ve never seen before. That was pulling the ro— the gu— the loose ends in. Everybody pulling the loose ends in. Now, see, we may look like we’re divided at the beginning of a night, and we may seem to be tottering, but the old ship of state right now, ten of ten, is in damn good shape.
Congregation: Cheers and applause.
Jones: Thank you. That’s what it takes. Honesty can heal any situation. Love with honesty. But nothing else. Just be honest, until you can become loving. But you do have a responsibility to be cordial. As I said to uh, Joy, I appreciate that forthrightness with Simon, to tell him, but— it also by saying— the same thing shoulda been said, I could understand, maybe if I’da been in your position, I mighta done the same thing. You never know. (Unintelligible word; tape edit?) can always say that, ‘cause you don’t know what you’da done, you’d been in his job. You understand what I’m saying?
Murmurs of assent.
Jones: You just don’t know for sure what you’d do if you were in Simon’s job, unless you got Simon’s job. You can say, well, I’d have— if I’da been so-and-so, I’da done so-and-so. No, you don’t know what you’d done if you’d been so-and-so, ‘cause you’d been you-and-so. (Pause) So you just— you don’t know what so-and-so’s going to do, or what so-and-so had to do, so it’s eh— it’s just best to say, I think— this is what I think I would’ve done. But still, I love you. I don’t approve of what you did, but I love you. And I love those changes you’ve made, the growth you’ve (stumbles over words) demonstrated. And I’m fond of uh, what I see here, the very definite streak of honesty that can be called forth. So let’s try honesty, but let’s most clearly make this known. And that doesn’t mean just cut cut cut. You say what you feel, but also show the cordiality with it, or let the person know you care. Let them know some way you care. Some people think all’s required under this new dispensation is just saying everything comes to your mouth. (Pause) You understand what I’m saying? Please? Give the water around. Hold your hand up in the air— Hold it up high if you want water, that won’t distract me. Uh— Just be sure, though, that you do try to keep peace. And remember uh, this, al— I repeat, the best follower will be the one that’ll go the furthest for peace. Someone showing their rear end? Then you keep your peace, and go the extra mile. You’ll be the best follower. Right?
Scattered voices: Right.
Jones: You go the extra mile.
Scattered voices: Right.
Jones: Yes.
Voice too soft.
Woman: This, uh, keeps recurring to me and uh, at this moment, I feel very strongly, uh, last year, when we were in Philadelphia, and we saw the adulation which had been lavished on leaders who didn’t deserve it, one of the— my companions, a young woman in the uh, Temple, said to me, I’m so glad that our prophet hasn’t taken that trip. And I said, if he had taken it, I wouldn’t be on it. Now, I hope that you mean it— you know what I mean. Uh— some of us — and I think, most of us — love him because of the things that he will do for us on the human level, and the fact that he doesn’t let us give him diamond rings and cars, nor accept our worship. I just felt moved to say that we do appreciate you. (Short pause) He isn’t there. (Laughs) That’s how (unintelligible word)—
Congregation: Applause
2nd woman: Well, I took the same trip last summer, and in a way, I think the people back there had something over us. They listened and— when something was said. When those tapes were played, and— I thought Father Divine was a horrible speaker, I thought he was boring, I thought he didn’t have anything to say. Out of all due respect for you children — and I respect you, ‘cause you’re here and anything that brought you here, fine — but I— I listened and it was boring to death. But those people sat, and they even watched that tape recorder or whatever it was it was coming from. And when (Pause) someone who represented the office of that time came from Mother which I think (unintelligible word)— I think we all share her thoughts of her, they watched her, and they listened to her. When people— When they would stand out there for an hour waiting for her to come out, just to watch her — and she wasn’t anything to look at — we can’t even be quiet. We can’t stop from talking to our neighbor. We can’t stop from reading a newspaper. We can’t stop from writing in address books. We have to go in— to the bathroom. We have to have somebody walking up and down the aisle — I’m not saying it’s the older people, but, you know — bringing us drinks of water. Wo— I don’t know. (Pause) In a way, I almost wish that he had been that way, because maybe then we’d listen. And when things—
Voice in church far away.
Same woman: I know. I’m not saying I would be. But I’m saying, the respect that I saw there for nothing, we’re not getting for everything. And I think we had a lot to learn about the respect that went on back there, that we haven’t got here. And I for one didn’t keep it. So I’m as guilty as anybody else.
Jones: Well, I heard both— both comments, uh— (sighs) it’s a— it’s a problem. (Pause) If you win people, usually, initially, the ma— mass of people are not where Professor [Edith] Roller would be. To have missed Professor Roller would be a great loss, ‘cause she’s a thinking person. She follows out of commitment of mind, not guts, but mind. But a great mass of people, even with slightly lesser intellect than, than Professor Roller, are reached by enthusiasm and um, (Pause) the ardor of that kind of a— not the worship per— directed to me but the ardor of it. (Tape edit?) Little of it Sunday. (Pause) Uh— there was respect, there wasn’t anybody bowing before me, but it— it— it caused an enemy to get up and leave. Enemy that would’ve uh, taken their chances of doing bodily harm. Wasn’t connected with the peace mission, we have another enemy here, strangely enough, that was interested in doing something. Scouting the field. But that overwhelming zeal scared the liver out of him. He took off. It was a black man, seated by Sister Mueller, right next to her, and he took off.
Woman in crowd: Yes, and I seen that too, and I feel it was because you cleaned shelves. (unintelligible) come in and—
Jones: Yeah, right, right. And I— I think that what one has to know, uh— oh you don’t— you— you worship— you worship lively, you don’t seem like a dull sort. No one would ever think you were uninspired. I uh— What do you do with these intellectuals who come in who think that they’re pride themselves so much on not being a follower, (stumbles over words) really what they’re pride themselves, you know, is, is being rebellious (short laugh) and they want to be anarchistic, and they pride themselves in this, but I— we— we got to find some leverage which we catch those people (Pause) before they get in here. (Pause) I would say, people be at the doors and scrutinize a little bit more, screen them— For instance, we find a Ukiahan— this— my statement ought to be (struggles for words)— how many people are greeters? (Pause) I don’t like just talk. Greeters. Greeters. Those who greet people at thedoor. You get their names and you greet them. (Pause) I think we’re going to have make a stronger movement uh— build up a stronger organization to meet everyone, ‘cause we run into real trouble here Sunday. We had a priest— he was here for no good, and I got him out of here, but it was— it was rough, because he was already in. Let’s take it automatically. If you see a Ukiahan— (Pause) Unless— well, I don’t think you can take any “unlesses”. She so— you should take their address— oh, I will be so in— glad to invite you to a meeting later, this happens to be our confessional meeting. Every one is. This is the meeting where we have catharsis, and we’re home very rare, which is true. So uh— (Pause) Minute they say they’re from Ukiah, ‘cause I’ve had a certain instruction about that. Say, now you— if— if uh— give me your name and address, and phone number and I’ll— I’ll personally — and I mean to hold to see it’s done that way — see, it’s gotten right in, right there, the— say, don’t want to lose that address, Christine, I’m looking at you, I’m counting on you to implement this. I see how many other uh, greeters. (Pause) Laura. Say, I’ll personally, personally uh, invite you when we have a meeting, regular puglic— public meeting. We’ll say and— but you gotta give them more reasons for this. Say that, in this confessional meeting sometimes, people don’t feel at ease unless they know everybody.
(Pause) Most important is to get uh, these intellectuals that hit us from Ukiah, ‘cause we’ve had trouble all week long. Karen certainly hasn’t relegated any work there. She’s done everything I’ve told her to do, but I’ve had to make uh— I had a certain set of wisdom for her to follow, explicitly, with the Roman Catholic priest, who thought he was a— a Greek priest who thought he was a prophet— a, a psychologist and so forth and so on. (Pause) If you run into these— these psychologists, some of you gotta get some things in your head. We gotta have a little schooling tonight. We need some briefing. We can’t put it in writing. Maybe this oughta go round by telephone. Some things you need to know when you’re dealing with psychologist. Psychiatrists— Say oh, yes, we’ve been praised very highly by one of the heads of the hospitals here. We were. Don’t give the man’s name, though, it’s Van Dusen, but don’t give it, because you might cause some pressure and he might back down under pressure. Or Dr. Perkins, the one that saw the miracles of the cri— the cripples walk, and the cancers pass, and he said it for real, we got his letter. Said, we got the head of a state hospital, psychiatrist, doctor, who has said that the— this is the most honest and humanistic— I mean, you mention that too, to a psychologist. They’re not so much interested in miracles as they are what Professor Roller’s saying, the character. You tell about what the guy— what I’m doing. And I will. I work, I clean, I uh, do every other thing uh, that any human being should be that’s dedicated to help their fellow man.
(More emphatic) But then you project, that we’ve got a doctor who’s a head of hospital in Los Angeles — that’s safe enough, I don’t want to put him under pressure, either, ‘cause it could get him some trouble with that American Medical Association, but it’s Dr. Perkins, head of the big hospital there, who said these miracles are undeniably real. He set there service after service and watched them. Looked at the growths, saw the cripples, and he said, they’re undeniably real. He’s a medical doctor and a psychiatrist. And if you quote this — and here’s the reason you quote this — ’cause these devils want to go out, and thinking they’re psychologists, they’ll give us some trouble. But if they know other psychologists and psychiatrists have praised us, and other doctors have praised us, then they don’t want to look like they’re in— a fool, you see. You see what I’m sayin’? I don’t care who comes there. If it’s an engineer? We’ve had engineers praise us. Politicians? We’ve have politicians praise us. (Pause) Law enforcement people— and then always drop, with everybody, we’ve had wonderful letters of praise from law enforcement people all over this United States, particularly in the Bay Area and local. (Pause) ‘Cause people come in here— this, this Greek bunch was here to cause— I don’t know what’s up with these people. Liz Forman, are you here? She working? (Pause) What’s with these people, anyway, that you work with?
Voice too soft.
Jones: (Stumbles over words) (Pause) Do they talk of— to the church, do they talk through the church uh, uh, to you? Talk against the church to you?
Voice too soft.
Jones: They said you invited them. Did you invite them? They said again today, they— this week, that you invi— they— you invited them. (Pause)
Microphone turns on. Pause
Liz: Did you get the message that I— I— they told me they were coming, and they were going to bring this psychia— this psychologist. And, you know, I tried— I said— I (unintelligible word)
Jones: The thing you shoulda done at that very first uh, juncture, is to— for us to get these instructions so clearly, say, we’re— well, we’re not having a meeting yet. Say, I’m sor— I’m sorry that there’s no meeting of— open to the public, it’s just a business meeting and catharsis. So there no way. You shoulda stopped it right there, rather than have this embarrassment of having to have them move. ‘Cause if they had heard some of the words that I used, socialism, so forth, they coulda been real trouble. That Greek— I have a fe— strongest feeling that this Greek outfit is connected so much with, not only the orthodox Greek Church, but it’s connected with the infamous situation over in Greece. (Pause) I have the strongest feeling that they are connected with fascist right-wing elements.
Liz: Now that—
Jones: And uh— we sure don’t need a— we don’t need that kind of— and the Gre— the Greek government, to you that don’t know it, and that’s why you need to be politicized, or be informed, you need to watch the ner— the news, the Greek government’s the most racist government, the most dictatorial, tyrannical government today. And tho— when you get somebody Greek pre— but in the first place, you get any preacher coming through there, I— I was so disheartened with the nation today, that took a TV poll of who was the most trusted in the— in the United States. Who the people trusted the most. Doctors first, and preachers second. I thought, boy, the people of America are really bad off. Trust in preachers second. I’d trust a preacher last. (Pause) I’m not a preacher. I don’t fit that role. ‘Cause the best of ‘em, even as we’ve heard here discussed in the movement in the East, you can’t trust. One thing I thought Purity said to me today that was very good, I thought that’s wise, if I taught her that, that’s fine, said Father’s taught me one thing, to listen to anything I— believe what I hear. (Hmphs) Well, that’s good. If it’s taught you that. It’s taught you to keep your ears and eyes open—
[End of Q 955]
Jones: —and not be duped. That’s good. ‘Cause too many people are duped. The whole nation is duped, to believe in preachers. And the— the statistical polls showed— the only one good thing it showed, the li— of the people they— they trusted the least were politicians, and used car salesmen.
Congregation: Laughter
Jones: Now if they get the preachers— But you see why though they— they— they trust preachers, because we’ve kept the Skygod, and we’ve kept the Holy Bible, and nobody’s ever told the truth about the Bible but Jim Jones. Nobody’s ever told the truth about the church, but Jim Jones. So people think if the church is good and the Bible’s good, and God’s good, the preachers ought to be good. So we gotta show them that the church is no good, and there isn’t no God up there. We got to get that through to someplace. Maybe not us per se, but that’s where it gotta start, because they’re gonna continue to trust those rascals and be led off to destruction, until they see that the whole mess is just big cop-out. (Pause) Not only a cop-out but a fraud game. These preachers are lazy. They don’t want to work. So when a preacher gets in there — we had two in here this Sunday — and the tane— name-takers, when you hear them, you oughta say, oh, so glad you ca— came. Wish that you could have come, this is— This is a— (Pause) (Snaps fingers) I don’t know how I’m gone do this, ‘cause some of you young pe— children, you’ll forget it and you’ll call it a cathartic, instead of catharsis, I’m sure.
Congregation: Laughter
One voice: Same thing.
Jones: I can just see what this is going to lead to. We’re gonna— You— You just— You people will have to have written instructions to show your names to people every day, your name-takers. If we get this done tonight, it’s very important. (Pause) And so the minute you hear the reverend— “Oh, I was so glad you came, but we uh, sorry that this is a meeting where we have confession,” and then go through what I told you. “Our people feel more at ease, they confess their faults to one another— one to another.” That’s the Scripture. You use that Scripture. Confess your faults, one to another, that you might be healed. “And we have some business matters, and people feel more at ease if they know the people that are present.” Don’t say, “members only.” That makes people think like, Aaah. Proud, s— starchy, too uppity to have anything to do with the o— other people. So handle it very carefully, but very discreetly, and when anyone tells you they’re coming to see your church — you hear what I’m telling her now? —
Scattered voices: Yeah.
Jones: You say, “Oh, that’s fine. Let me have your name and address, and I’ll let you know when there is a meeting. We’re on the road so much, but what we’ll do, if there’s enough people want to call, we’ll call a special Saturday night meeting when we weren’t going to have one.” And we’ll be the straightest bunch of people you ever saw in your life. (Pause) We’ll have a devotional service, we’ll have Purity Lamb uh, sing, or we’ll have uh, (Laughs) Valerie kneel down and pray and, Joy to read from the Bible and not cuss that night, or we’ll swap her.
Congregation: Laughter
Jones: (Laughs) We’ll give them the night— one night! And then be finished of it. Get them all together, get all the critics that want to come in here to spy out our liberty, get ‘em and take care of them in one night. You won’t say anything about me being a God that night, you’ll look up there and do whatever they— keep ‘em confused.
Congregation: Laughter
Jones: ‘Cause they— it’s the same se— if it applies in here, it’s certainly going to apply out there. If you don’t want to see goodness in me, they’re not going to want to see God in me. ‘Cause they got too much to lose by seeing God in me. So they’re not going to accept God in me. No, no preacher gonna accept God in me, ‘cause he’d lose his business, he’d be out of business. ‘Cause I’m talking for myself, I don’t need any preacher to talk for me, I’m addressing the congregation on my own behalf, I’m speaking on my own behalf. So preacher’s not going to take that. Do you understand what I said now? It’s very important to get this in your mind. This isn’t so important with you in the bay, because somebody out there is not as dangerous as someone right here at home. And I had an instruction a few years ago that’s helped us they— avoid a lot of pain. Avoid a lot of pain. And that is to keep away from local people, or as Mother LeTourneau asked me today, what do you do if someone shows interest? Do you— Can you say, if I go into a place, they asked me what church? Yes, you don’t go volunteering nothing, but if they ask you, say yes, I— I belong to Peoples Temple. Say, well, I’m interested, I’d like to come. Say, well, fine, we’re not there very often, let me have your name and phone number, I’ll let you know when we have a meeting. Then we can see how sincere they are. (Snaps fingers) We can bring them through one of these. If we see they’re bored, we can get them aside and tell ‘em what they really— what we really are. There’s always ways of discerning them, you see. We’ve done this. I remember the first time we had John Biddulph, how we played that thing around, we had John Biddulph sitting over there. I remember how he was. I don’t know where he is now, but, had him setting over there, we played that thing this way and that way, and watched it, which way did— which way the ball was going to roll. (Pause) And you get ‘em on a night when it’s an open night, and bring ‘em in. (Pause) Well, the star spangled waves. It waves. We’re proud of this— of what it really means, so it waves, so we don’t have to say too much about that. It waves here. All right, uh, what— what— what has their feedback been since we’ve done some pacification now?
Woman: Oh, ah, they’re— they say they don’t buy anything, that they had about five different stories. I acted like— (unintelligible phrase), Karen said naïve. I wasn’t in church, I said I didn’t know. You know. But it’s very (unintelligible word), very often they call these meetings, very quickly, they said, well, somebody told them they decided Tuesday night. Why didn’t I know about it? I said, well, I’m not in the meetings very much, you know, I mean, I spend a lot of time out of the meetings. They said, well, you find out for us, ‘cause we— we think that they were threatened. We think Jim Jones himself got rid of us, and— I mean, then the psychiatrist said to the daughter of the— of the priest, that I—
Jones: If you’d been doing your job, they won’t.
Woman: Huh?
Jones: If you do your job, they won’t. (Pause)
Woman: If I do my job—
Jones: They’re threatened. They’re threatened.
Woman: Yeah.
Jones: You do their— your job, they won’t feel uh, they won’t feel that I’m threatened by them.
Woman: They said that— They felt that I— the psychiatrist, psychologist said this, that I tipped you off.
Jones: (Laughs)
Woman: And that um— it was because I didn’t like him. He knows I don’t like him, and that, you know, that I asked you to get rid of him. (Sighs)
Jones: Well, you want to watch your job work, uh, right now, ‘cause there’s more riding on you than you ever thought.
Woman: Say what?
Jones: You must watch your pattern of work, because there’s more riding on you than you ever knew. Because if you exhibit any kind of emotional instability or a poor work performance, they’re going to be judging this whole group. They made some very unobjective statement there, they’re not very good psychologist. But if they see anything to cause them to say that there’s emotional instability here, (Pause) then you’ve given the ammunition. Uh, you— you— (stumbles over words) What was their last statement you said to you, that if uh, they didn’t buy this, that we’re threatened.
Woman: They felt that— that you might have picked up on some of their, you know, nega— not negativity, well, I forget the word they used, that they were questioning— they were looking around for you to be peeping out of a peephole.
Jones and woman speak over each other.
Jones: Well, I— you— you— you— Tell you what you do. You go to them, and tell ‘em that we’re having a business meeting, but I want to see them, right when it’s finished. I’d like to see them. Like to have some coffee, uh yes, we have some, if the— the sisters will put it on over there, yes. You go call ‘em, and see how threatened I am of those (low grumble)—
Woman: If there— you really want me to do that?
Jones: I mean that.
Woman: Right now?
Jones: Yeah, yeah, about 11 o’clock. Tim Stoen, I would— Chaikin [Eugene Chaikin, Temple lawyer], and some of us who want to meet them.
Woman: Okay.
Jones: Say, we’re having our business meeting. They can come, we’ll be over about 11 o’clock— (Pause)
Woman: Shall I say—
Jones: —if they’d like to come out, say, because I’m going out of town.
Woman: I think that— that’s really a good idea.
Jones: Go, go. Say that you met— you say— you say, I didn’t say everything, but I came to him and said— said what I felt, and they said, well, now, we want to get this communications barrier broken down. You go with ‘em— (voice tails off)
Woman: Um, Jim? Now, shall I say that I went to try to find out what happened. They said, we want you to find out what really happened. Like, when Gene talked to them the week before, they said to me, what did Gene Chaikin really want? You know. So—
Jones: To help with more human services.
Woman: That’s what I said. We’re interested in children, you know, this kind of thing.
Jones: Yeah. Yeah.
Woman: But, now shall I—
Jones: Anything threatening about—
End of side 3:
Side 4:
Woman: —the daughter gets information to me, because she doesn’t like the psychologist, either. So that’s why she told me that stuff, about— One thing—
Jones: We get all this back in— coordinate your facts, and you people will know my mind and spirit enough to make this presentation. Offer to— say, we’re just so infernal busy here. We’re getting ready to go to Los Angeles now. We got several thousand in a meeting there, and I’ll be heading uh, to Los Angeles early. And that’s just the way we— say, we got (unintelligible phrase)— has he got a moment?
Woman: Can— then the daughter said, that she was thinking about becoming a member—
Jones: (Sighs) Oh, dear God—
Woman: —and she wants to talk with you personally, and I said, well, it’s very difficult to talk to our pastor because he’s very—
Jones: Well, tell her to come too.
Woman: I— Tell her to come too. Okay.
Jones: Yes, Yes. Come too. Everybody invited.
Congregation: Laughter. (Pause)
Jones: Now we’re going— We get— Listen. We might even (unintelligible phrase; could be “get in on the”) tail end of this. We’ll throw them some loops tonight. If they want to come in and see the big business about closing, they can come in for a few minutes. We’ll have no healing here tonight, you hear? Only what I do— (laughs) under the table. See?
Congregation: Laughter, then applause
Jones: And we’ll talk about humanism, service work, highest worship to God is what we see God, service to uh— service to our fellow man. Some of you’ll be agnostics and humanists, and when I say you’re an a— an atheist, you’ll be one tonight. Or if I say you’re a fundamentalist, you’ll be one. Right?
Congregation: Right.
Jones: If I say you, then you— you be it. We want— We— The reason— Why are we doing this? We’ve got some really bad enemies that are up to no good. We’ve gotta throw them— we’ve gotta give them a wrong scent. They think they got one scent. We’re going to have to give them another scent. (Pause) Now, he that winneth souls is wise. The only thing is, you tell what you’re doing to one another. You don’t lie to each other. We li— We tell each other what we’re doing. (Pause) Paul said, what deceivers yet true. We’re true to each other, but we don’t let the folk outside know where we are. Until they’re honest, and want to come in with us. (Pause)
Voice too soft.
Jones: We believe in— The Father believes in healing. All right.
Voice too soft.
Jones: Well, we’ve had enough healings. You can tell them (unintelligible word) enough healings. You— You can tell him— Chaikin, you ought to go back there to have a word too, you can tell him you were healed of cancer. Tell the Father— The Father believes in healing. (Pause) The thing to do, if somebody believes in healings, say, yes, that’s uh, true, I— he can heal you, and you’ll need him someday. (Pause) Patty’s [probably Patty Cartmell] got a good one. When they start talking about me, she says, “You look just like somebody I knew the day before they died.”
Congregation: Laughter.
Jones: (Laughs) That’s the way you deal with mean folk. And back to professor, that we got to learn how to uh— We need enthusiasm, because they need to see we’re do— we’re together. We don’t need to be reading in presence of a leader. It doesn’t bother me. But we need to have that respect for me when I speak, and there needs to be ovation, and uh, uh, elation and enthusiasm. It’s got to be. If we don’t have it, someone who’s been following a lesser light, and being emotionally inspired by that, they’ll think we haven’t got anything worth selling. And if somebody’s bothered by that, it’s the duty of you to watch around you, and then get them to a social worker, get them to some of our uh, people who have had professional and intellectual backgrounds, and they can present the other aspect. You can tell when you got an intellectual. And find that out, workers. Don’t bring it to me in my attention, bring it to the uh, attorneys and bring it to the— someone like Professor Roller, here, who’s been a college teacher. Bring it to them. Let them deal with that. I won’t have to fool with that. You understand what I’m trying to get across?
Scattered: Yes.
Jones: You’re not bringing me anything about them personally. It’s just helping you— the, the family to better safeguard against this kind of thing. All right. Do you got any questions about what you’re doing back there? (Short laugh)
Voice too soft.
Jones: Oh, let uh, let uh, you, and I think we can say, you can make the call, and you got Mrs. Forman there, and she’s— she thought she’d try to find out what he’s after, to find out— or somebody’s asked her to find out what was going on, and so she has, and you’re just calling to say what went on. Said that they probably let you stay through the music, it maybe was oversight, but then, some saw you through the music, and thought, well, it’s all right for you to stay. There was no confessions then, no— no catharsis. No encounter sessions then. If they want to sound intellectual, you can out-intellectualize their intellectual (Pause) level. (Pause) Just as long as you got one story here. Be sure you got the same story, before you start calling. Yes.
Voice too soft.
Jones: I’m fine. (Pause) Tell them about some songs we sing that have nothing to do with religion. We sing ‘em lively. “Blowing In The Wind.” That isn’t controversial enough. Say, you ought to hear our choir singing, “Blowing In The Wind.” (Pause) You oughta hear— you oughta really throw it up and say, you ought to hear them sing a song, “Can You Imagine” [“Imagine” by John Lennon]. We sing my favorite song. Say— All right, you gotta really throw the pastor out. Our favorite song, uh, the pastor’s favorite song, if they have any— the priest doesn’t have that, but the other psychologist— any agnostic, tell ‘em, our favorite— the favorite song of our favorite is “Can You Imagine.” There’s no heaven.
Congregation: Laughter
Jones: That really will throw them.
Congregation: Stirring.
(Tape off for unknown length of time, but pause is several seconds)
Jones: All right. Yes.
Older woman: Father, I’m not trying to tell you how to do, but I was wondering what’s— what’s with— why we can’t do like the Muslims do. I saw them one time take a lady’s wig off. They take the wig off and examine you from head to toe. No one ever gets hurts in there. You’re never getting threatened in there. They take your wig off and examine it, and I mean they— you know. (Laughs) I know that’ll take a lot of time—
Jones: (unintelligible under woman) We get some attorneys in here, and then I thought come in my mind, they just tell me false arrest. We have no right— we have no right to be yanking— we have no way— We could get assault and battery, we— we yank people’s uh, wigs off, we’ll have a lot of suits. It’s a thought, though. These wigs can really be pulled off quick, and uh, that has been used for assassination. (Pause) Aw, it’s a bad time to be alive.
Older woman: (unintelligible lead in) comes in—
Jones: Hmm?
Older woman: —or not so much, you know, they touch you around your head and give you the once-over, you know, and all this (unintelligible word under Jones)
Jones: No, I— I— (stumbles over words) I don’t know. I— I sure wouldn’t go that church a second time after— (laughs)
Congregation: Laughter
Jones: ‘Course, I know some sisters would probably return, but that’d be uh—
Congregation: Laughter
Jones: Some brothers too. But I— I wouldn’t uh— (Pause) I don’t know, I think we’re going to have to have those— Sister, in all fairness to your suggestion, I think we’re going to have to have something like the Fruit of Islam um, in the security. I think there’re gonna have to be uniformed— some, and some not. Uh, some just make this— ah, just to make it so— so apparent that you know what you’re doing that they won’t fool with you. I think that there has to be that. And I don’t think most people gonna risk coming in, when there’s about 15 guns. That’s why I would like to— did she already get your— your mind and your spirit in a— in position that you could hold one of those guns, then I won’t feel (Pause) that there’s any hypocrisy to it. So that we really could have that kind of a security. (Pause) There you go. Right by here. (Pause) That’s why there’s no point in us pulling out our lives to try to keep ourselves straight, or reach on down to San Francisco to do any more of it, unless we will keep our teaching here. I— I’m very concerned that uh, (Pause) I think Gene Chaikin made the point, and you can be giving him credit, he’s not in the room presently, that when we get diversified, or spread about, that influence gonna be hard to maintain. (Pause) We’ll have to have a meeting here a week. There no question about it. And I think something else gonna be required, that no matter who the member is—
(Pause) Some do it now, and I was disturbed, I had reports, I don’t want to bring it up tonight, I had reports people were not in meeting, you were in ice cream shop, getting ice cream, while I was here, pouring out my soul Sunday night, in one case. Another was home asleep. (Pause) That hurts. And your disobedience, doing after your children, babes, you’re— you’re creating a problem, ‘cause your children gonna create rebellion, and you— they’re— they’re not gonna be turning against you on— me only, it’s going to be turned against you. ‘Cause they’ll say, well, Dad, Mom, you did it. I’ll do what I please. And it’ll be turned against you. Every time I’ve had it, uh, had rebellion shown, the children end up using that rebellion far more against the parent than they did to me. I’m going to make this requirement. That wherever we are, no matter what your work is, no matter what your capacity, if you’re in charge of a senior citizen home, or a children’s home, we’re going to make it our ultimate to be in every meeting, but at one meeting a week absolutely necessary. (Pause) And I think it ought to be made (Pause) that you turn to council (Pause) a little card or a letter or just a sheet a— a week. Say, you turn them in here on Tuesday nights to the council, in the future, any council member, and they put them together, a statement of where you are or what you think about this work. And I’ll be able to go over them too. And I will, you can bet your life.
(Pause) We’ve got to keep close tabs on this family, to see that things don’t happen. And if you’ve got anything to confess, you better mark it, “Personal, Pastor Only.” ‘Cause I don’t walk into any kind of messes like I did here. We’ve not resolved the problem yet with our one brother. We started with Brother Herman. I don’t want to walk into any more problems, I want to know about them from you, not by discernment. Do you understand? (Pause) You’re quite right. I’m reluctant to put anybody out. But you are also wrong, if you think I’m not going to very soon, (Pause) because I’m going to have to, (Pause) because nobody believes it’ll happen. But it might interest you to know that a whole lot of people from San Francisco were dropped from their telephone dispatch, it was just like that (snaps fingers). I said, drop them. (Pause) I think of Charlie Mudd, I said, drop him. That’s one example. If you don’t think I do it. I said, drop him. Don’t you give him another message. Period. He didn’t say he was quitting. I said, don’t give him any more messages. And don’t assume, if you’re not getting your messages, that’s what happened to you, because sometimes mistakes happen. But if you give any— any dander to any one of these callers, you’re just liable to be dropped. ‘Cause I’m tired of fooling with it. If you think one— we got messages gonna come through one night to save you and your family’s life, and we’ll even take in some loved ones that don’t belong to the family. No doubt on that, that two week period. Trying to save them out of generosity to you. If you think, with the information that I hold, it’s not worth you being patient and kind to my callers, I’ll just not have you bothered at all, and you won’t be bothered when it’s something that’s going to save you from being des— destroyed. (Pause) Do I make myself clear?
Subdued voices: Yes.
Jones: Yes, uh.
Voice too soft
Jones: Now, you were supposed to have a caller.
Voice too soft.
Jones: Is it Windsor? Now we— we went through that two weeks ago, didn’t we, or three?
Woman: (Mike cuts it) —month ago, (unintelligible word), Father, because I give her two telephone—
Jones: Yeah, I know, but this— ‘cause I personally asked somebody to take care of this. When was this?
Woman: Oh, it was like, it was a month—
Jones: Two weeks ago?
Woman: Oh, I don’t know, I didn’t hear, I wasn’t here, but I know you just, about a month— about two months—
Jones: No, Kay [probably Kay Nelson], well, whenever. Now who uh, who is the world— Is Jane Mutschmann? (Pause) Will you see that this sister is put on that calling list? (Pause) Maybe Bea Morton could take her— in that situation, it would be of some saving— People talk with her. I want this not to happen anymore, ‘cause there no reason for you not to be on the calling list. They just happen to be in a little city, they have a business, a nursing home right between here and Santa Rose— Santa Rosa. Closer to Santa Rosa than here, about halfway between here and San Francisco. So they’ve got to know what’s going on. Or they’ll miss the important message. You wouldn’t, though. I wouldn’t— I’d know you— I’d get you. I know you people. You’d be told. Don’t worry about it. But, no reason why you can’t get your messages. All right, Herman, I think they closed that down, this chapter, uh— (Pause) You understand what you’ve gotta do, brother, return to these— this good work patterns that you can do, and what we believing you for, to assume now you get with the boys tonight, my so— my sons down there in the house, the children that I have down in that house, and talk to them about work routine and uh, what is required. And I would like for you to look at the cages to see that they’re mended, little things like that that need, the little goats, those little nannies have gotten out twice, little places in the fence they can get out, dogs could get them. The dogs have been peaceful, but areas like that. Um. There’s a rooster down there that is people-oriented. George will not go even— He won’t go anywhere to get water, unless the water’s to him. He’ll die of thirst. He will not go around chickens. He has come out of chicken mortality, and he will not go around chickens. If it means he dies of thirst or food, he will not go near a chicken. Most beautiful rooster down there, won’t have a thing to do with one of them. He walks around with those dogs, and they get in his way, he plucks them on the nose, and those dogs back off, and they don’t know what to do, they’d like to bite his head off, but they— they’re afraid of him, they don’t know whether he— they— they’ve also been convinced— see, if you believe enough in yourself, and we believe enough in our principle, it causes the great big dogs of the system, and all your enemies, to begin to back off from you. ‘Cause everybody backs off from George. He— he flogs those dogs, I’ve never seen anything jump a dog right head on. When he’s eating— ‘cause you gotta bring the food to him. He wants to eat out of your hand. Very spoiled. But if— if they come to get his food, he’ll flog them right there, right there on the spot. And that monkey can handle anything but him. He’ll chase that monkey clear around that house.
Congregation: Laughter
Jones: George will not put up with one bit of foolishness out of that monkey. But he— uh, water, he won’t go to water. Today, he was almost famished for water. So if you could help, uh— he wo— he sticks right around that porch, you know, won’t go much away from it. Be careful when you’re driving too, friends, ‘cause when George walks in around there, you see him walking around the parking lot. He walks up at night, and he smells that food, and he comes up here.
Voice too low
Jones: Good. Good. Let’s get this money, of— offering. Okay. Now you— And if you don’t, you’ll make your plans where you would want to move, because you’ll be under six months removal, and I don’t want that to happen. So, go over anything you’ve got any question about from this council tonight. Perhaps you ought to meet with them again Monday, just for a brief time, to know that you understand everything’s required of you.
Herman: Okay. Okay.
Jones: Thank you.
Herman: Thank you.
Jones: All right, let’s uh— let’s quickly uh, give our offering as uh, much as we can. (Pause) (Stumbles over words) Every one of you, now, now, instead of writing it, I want you to stand and tell me what it is, right now. Stand and tell me what it is. (Pause) Put away your— put away your pictures of me right now, will you? Put them down in your bra. We got folk coming. See, we got folk coming. (Pause) Everyone tell her what you’re giving, right now. Stand— you— no, don’t give it to anybody else, don’t rush her, don’t— not one usher take it. Stand and tell me what it is. ‘Cause I’ve got somebody adding here.
Voice too far away.
Jones: Shhh!
Voice too far away.
Jones: A hundreds dollars, huh, that’s pledged. That’s a pledge made, though, is it. He’s filling a pledge. Shh! Quickly!
Voice too far away.
Jones: All right. Thank you. Take this. What is it? Pledges, uh, no, don’t— don’t count the— be sure to preface it, if it’s a pledge, as— I can’t add that, ah, so I can put it down and you get credit. Take the brother right there, he’s got the (voice trails off)
Voice away from mike
Jones: Thank you. Get the pledges there, folk.
Male: Shout it out, so we can hear it.
Jones: Ev— don’t want no— usher, don’t take anything from anyone. Anyone— Everyone tell me. Quickly. Let’s get this over with.
Voice away from mike
Jones: Hmm? What? (Pause) (Stumbles over word) You’ve made a pledge, and you’re paying it. Don’t count that. Loud. I mean, we’re— we’ll c— count that on you, or crediting it you. Credit. Just when you hear something not pledged, write it down. (Pause) Shh! Everyone?
(Tape edit)
Jones: He manifests God or good more than anybody I know. I’ve never seen anyone that lived as honest as he did. You understand what I’m saying? You don’t call me Father or Savior or anything right here. This is a good experience for us. We ought to deal with these things together, so we can learn.
Voice away from mike
Jones: You’re going to have to have it quiet. You have to—
Male: Would you please—
Jones: Shh!
Male: Be quiet. He’s speaking to you.
Voice away from mike
Jones: Ushers, will you get a tight rein on this place?
Voices away from mike
Jones: (Unintelligible phrase), Harold, I’ve only freed you and Jim Bogue with weapons until I hear from other folk, and I don’t have time to hear from them tonight. So that means tonight that no— know some of you would qualify I’m sure. But I am gonna be criticized, if I don’t follow that procedure one hundred percent, and that’s it. Each of you have to be— pass qualifications on your own, with a statement in writing, briefly or— that I approve or a, a verbal statement. Yes, Mother.
Voice away from mike
Jones: Tha— thank you. Hundred dollar pledge. That’s very sweet. We need it. You see, we’re on— negotiating on a building, we’ve got— we’ve got to raise the money on this building across here, the new convalescent home and the extra housing that we have there, and the gardens. And the building we’re negotiating on down the Bay. (Pause) Any other announcements? Quick, now. Let’s get them through. Right now. Quick. I don’t want a lot of— don’t want a lot of uh— I don’t want anything controversial. We want to be—
Male: There’s going to be a joint choir rehearsal with the Los Angeles Choir at 10 o’clock when we get there. I haven’t had a chance to talk— We usually get there about 9 o’clock or so, and uh, as soon as we can get there and get set up, we’re going to have a choir rehearsal with them, so everybody that goes on this trip, don’t take off. When you get to that church, wait.
Jones: Now, listen. Now, hear it. Now someone’s already said they can’t say “Jim” to me tonight. I’m ordering you to say “Jim.”
Congregation: Right.
Jones: And that applies to everyone. No exceptions tonight. Because we’re dealing with some st— some people tonight, and we’ve got to be— ‘cause it’s “Jim” tonight. (Pause) You— You won’t be taking away respect from me by “Jim,” and you— and giving me respect doesn’t uh, come, just by saying “Father.” (Pause) It’s deeds and actions that show respect for me, like being quiet right now. (Pause)
Voice away from mike
Jones: Yes.
Joicy Clark: And is (unintelligible name “Agnes?”) Robertson uh, will provide for four people to go to a special trial tomorrow, we’re supposed to go someplace to Sacramento or somewhere.
Jones and woman speak over each other
Jones: Where’re the attorneys— where’re the attorneys on this special trial? I want that out of the way.
Clark: Yes, I just want to say very quick, that she— see, (same name) Robinson, she— she— she can give four people a ride, but they got to tell just where they can be at. (Pause) An hour, at eight o’clock. It’ll be at eight o’clock.
Jones: I don’t understand this, uh. Wait, uh, wait just a minute, Sister Clark, and he’ll— Joicy, he’ll be here in a minute.
Clark: Okay. (Pause)
Jones: (low voice) Thank you.
Woman: Um, the Chaikin children are returning Sunday night, and David, the little boy who’s nine, has a minor neurological uh, handicap, and he is— it has been suggested, where he is been— being treated at the UC Medical Center, that he has someone— that he has someone play ping pong and other games of coordination with him, uh, quite often, and I think it would be nice if we could get some older teenage boys and girls who might volunteer on a regular basis, or even uh, uh, another— you know, an adult woman or man. It doesn’t matter. But we do need someone, or a few people who are going to volunteer and maybe take it (sighs) under their wing to see that he gets exercise that will help him coordinate. He has eye— it’s called dyslex— dyslexia, I believe, and it’s a coordination problem. So I’d like some volunteers now.
Jones: Quickly, quickly—
Woman: Okay— Fine— Ah, we
Jones: —respond to these things, get these over with. Very young, although this kind of thing would not be— I mean, this would be suitable— this type of thing would be suitable for the— for him when we come.
Woman: Right. Well, you see—
Jones: We better be— Some of you better be down there getting creative minds, Don, Christine and something, uh, bring up certain situations here, if we— (speaks off mike)
Woman: Will you see Phyllis [probably Phyllis Chaikin, could be Phyllis Houston] after the meeting, so you can coordinate child—
Jones: We have a home for a child, (unintelligible phrase), we get a volunteer quickly, and there are dogs, (stumbles over words), get— get together, get up there and s— you and J— uh, Mickey [probably Mickey Touchette] and uh, Christine, set up there and uh— people sitting on that uh, stage, get together. Carol? Go ahead, now, Jen, uh, Claire [probably Claire Janaro], you can be up there too. We better si— uh, simulate, assimilate— (Pause) Vera Young? (Pause) Vera Young? Where’s Vera Young? (Pause) Hmm? Well, it’ll be all right. (Pause)
Elderly woman: Uh, I just wanted to tell you all about the ride tomorrow. It wasn’t me giving them the ride, it was my daughter. She— I asked her about going to San Mateo, or wheresomever it was, be— because I didn’t have convenient way, and she told me tonight, announced that she can take five down there, and she would, and she said she would have to have some gas, and you all just sit the price for that, and whatsoever you give her, she’ll go for that. And she would like to have uh, certain points to pick them all up at one place, but she’ll take them all back to their homes where they came from, but have one place in the morning to pick them up, and tell me what time to tell her to pick them up, and where. (Pause) And I live at 591 Waller, but I know they wouldn’t— all wouldn’t be there, they could be closer to where they live, and we’ll go there and pick them up. (Pause)
Voice too soft
Younger woman: Uh, we have two people in our home who, who want to go down to San Francisco to the trial, and they need a place to stay there tonight, so they’ll be there in the morning to be picked up. Can someone volunteer their home for these women to stay in? Okay.
Woman: How many do you need?
Younger woman: Three— okay, five. (Pause)
Elderly woman: Well, they all can meet there at my home, if they desire to, at 591 Waller.
Jones: Say it again.
Elderly woman: 591 Waller.
Male: How many are going down? How many are going down to the (mike cut off)
(Long pause)
Jones: (stumbles over words) Would you, Rick, uh, have them introduce again uh, publicly because (Pause) it would be clearer. I’m not sure I’m certain on that last name. Names don’t stick with me until I get to know people better. (Pause)
Rick: We’d like to welcome our guests tonight again, and we’d like to have them give each of their names, so that you will understand who they are and appreciate them here.
Maria Katsaris: Maria Katsaris.
Rick: Maria Katsaris.
Congregation: Applause
Steven Katsaris: And I’m Steven Katsaris.
Rick: Steven Katsaris. (Pause) And this is his wife.
Ann Katsaris: Ann Katsaris.
Rick: Ann Katsaris.
Congregation: Applause. Pause
Jones: This chair has no significance other than it’s for a tired preacher, tired leader. We use it for that, to accommodate me. I had to teach school, about 80 miles round trip for so many years that, when I got through teaching, I liked a place to sit down, and I’ve been self-supporting through the years, so I said, if I’d let the people seat— uh, be seated, would they give me the same privilege, so, this is the one, one way I can be seated and still see the people, so it has no religious significance whatsoever. We understood that there were uh, some communication breakdown. There was some communication breakdown Sunday between you and our group, and I don’t, um, bear a record of what all it entailed, uh, but I thought the best way, if it was possible, for you to come and meet us, and we could chat and we get to know each other better, because there certainly was a bad misunderstanding in reference to your attendance Sunday. Um— Usually, when we have a catharsis — not always, we can’t say strictly always, but usually — uh, the people feel more at ease if they are familiar with the people present. And we do get in some pretty strong discussions. We have uh, outright encounter sessions in which we handle things that I think usually are handled on smaller group level. We say most anything to each other, and to someone who understood that— and very likely, you would, with your training, you could jive this and probably jive it a whole lot better than what you saw in our religious setting, because we have a religious stance that we assume for the needs of those who are more orthodox. But in our encounter sessions, there are no holds barred. Uh, we have both liberal and orthodox people here. We have agnostics and fundamentalists. We have some who see me in a very important role of a spiritual being, and others who see me just as Jim Jones. Uh, most people call me just Jim Jones, but uh, uh, varying uh, depending upon their philosophy of life, uh, they interpret me accordingly. Um, but uh, Sunday, you were asked to leave, and also one of our own denominational leaders, Reverend Coatney by name, and uh, it’s all a unfortunate misinformation that should’ve been given at the door. You should’ve been so instructed at the door, so it wouldn’t have had to been handled. I was not involved personally in it. Uh, they— it was related that someone thought that I had in— asked you to leave. Well, I didn’t. I could care less who’s present, personally, because I don’t mind here let— letting the whole world hear what I have to say. But others feel that certain situations are a bit too (unintelligible word: tedgious?) for them to bear, unless they get to know people.
[Do] You have any uh, questions that you might like to ask of us, uh, along any line, what we believe or what we stand for or uh— we’re deeply— we wanted to call you to frankly apologize on a staff level, and I thought it’d be good for as many as present. This is not a total meeting, but at least it’s committees that represent the— the group. It’s a cross-sectional representation, that we would apologize to you directly for this bad situation that occurred, that you ha— your having to leave after being seated. (Pause)
Steven Katsaris: Thank you. I have no questions, other than to tell you I’m (Pause) very happy you invited me here this evening. It’s a pleasure to meet you.
Jones: Well, that’s kind of you to come.
Jones and Katsaris speak over each other
Steven Katsaris: I’m sorry. I really want you to know that there was uh, no enmity in my heart uh. I— I don’t feel that—
Jones and Katsaris speak over each other
Jones: Well, this is what I said, there wouldn’t be. I said there would be no enmity, but, from what we got— the feedback (unintelligible word) today, there might have been some, some hurt feelings here, so I wanted to be assured— I thought that— from what I’ve heard of you, which has been good, that you would probably understand that there had been just that, a communication breakdown. But we’re certainly, uh, delighted to find people that show that much interest to come out to an inter-racial group. We feel isolated, uh, too much at times, uh— You’re probably all too familiar that not everyone these days feel warmly to a, a real ex— ex— experiment in, in brotherhood, a real demonstration in brotherhood. (Pause) But we would just like to share with you in any way, if you have—
End of tape
[Editor’s note: This address is almost certainly followed by Q 1021-A.]
Tape originally posted April 2002