Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.
(Note: This 90-minute tape is a segment of Q1021, and is contained in its entirety there. It begins about one hour into that three-hour tape, and ends with about 30 minutes remaining. The discussion below covers only Q 955; it has been edited and its main points reiterated in the summary for Q 1021.)
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Jones: (cuts in middle of sentence) started in telling me beautiful things. (Pause) Said, I want to work and she says, Rheaviana [Beam] (unintelligible word) think I’m not working, uh, I’m working too much on budgets, and she says, I want to work there and she– (tape fades out; edit?) Little girl’s having this corrective spinal surgery, cast clear up to her neck, ’cause she was born, one of these things of, you know, purity of races, we gotta keep pure, so she– her parent married Jewish, and pure Jewish and, and they followed the Hebrew line, you know, are they particular national Hebrew strain that she was a part of, so she’s got all kinds of genetic weaknesses. She’s got a weak back, weak heart, she’da died if I hadn’t corrected her heart. Her hearing, all this is (tape fades; edit?) business is, breaks down every time, she’s got a lovely mind, but her emotions were not really in good shape when she came here. That’s been a miracle of happening here. She was a self-centered person, and now she’s become a most outgoing soul. And Rheaviana out of love for her didn’t want her to work, but she just said, I want to work, I want to help you, said I’m looking forward to being (stumbles over words) in church, she said even though I’m in– in a cast, I– I can come. I can come to church. (Pause) Her whole role of life was– was cheerful. (Pause) (Tape fade; edit?) – enjoyed the whole live long day, because– not that I didn’t enjoy other pla– other things, but there’d be sporadic things said, or there’d be hurtful things said, one to another, or there’d be fusses, ri– ri– right down cussin’ outbreak in front of me, between children. Cussin’ each other out, right in front of me. And that– that’s always helpful to my peace. I’m sure you think I enjoy that. (Pause) I laugh sometimes because I don’t know what else to do. I’d go mad if I didn’t laugh. I smile, because I don’t want any more struggle. I just say, “Bless you.” I’m tired of fights. I don’t need fights. I’ve had them for– all these– lo these many generations, too many of them. And I said it, yesterday, I said it to a couple of my children, I– (tape cut off; edit?) street add– home yesterday. (Stumbles over words) A true follower of mine will be the one that goes the extra mile for peace. I said, the one that loves me most, will– loves the principle that I am will be the one that swallows their carnal pride and goes furthest for peace. Not the one that wants a tit-for-tat, actual breakdown of every little thing, ’cause you’ve never get some people (tape fade) reconciled. The true follower of mine will be the one that makes peace. Swallows his pride. So I talked to some of the young ones coming on in– uh, today in leadership, you gonna– if you want to lead, you’ve got to take guff, (tape fades) crow, you’ve got to make people, you know, save face for them, and it’s a miserable job. And you can’t hardly be honest with your own staff. I did here tonight, but– and I can take that with honesty, I’m sure, Archie, but I don’t know what you’re going to do with the honesty, ’cause (unintelligible word) jump in now, uh, he jumped on one of his own workers. So now that shows there’re nobody– nobody faultless, so I’ll do what I want to do. (Pause) So it’s a very tough thing. What’s going on back there?
Voice too soft.
Jones: Help– you need some assistance?
Voice too soft.
Jones: (Sighs) (Pause) And I– and I say this lovingly to all of you, to every guard I have, every security personnel I have, (undertone) I have another thing here affecting someone not immediately present, so I won’t go into it. (Pause) (Quiet voice) Until you love me enough to be square with me, (Pause) until you love me enough (tape fades) follow my example – and if you don’t know my example, I’d get out of here, ’cause I, I sure got the backwash from last night, some of you don’t know my example. You haven’t realized how necessary it was when you’re in various consciousness planes (tape fade; edit) for whatever medium I had, to express love to you through whatever medium I had to express love to you. It may seem like harsh methods. (tape fade; edit?) – I’ve had to, I’ve been trying to bring you to love, to understanding, to feeling, to knowing yourself. (Pause) Now I’m saying this tonight, and I mean it, and it may mean the dismissal of my body. I want every gun laid down. (Pause) I don’t want a person to protect me in any way on these properties inside or out, until you work as hard (tape fade) inside. So let (tape fade) and lay guards do– I want the guards down. And I’ll take my chances. (Pause) And I know the risk of that, because enemies are within (tape fade), talk to one and talk to another, and then now, say it’s open day. It’s open day. (More emphatic) The guards are off. And I’m gonna take that chance. The guards are off. (Pause) Something’s gotta jolt this family someway at someplace. (Pause) Well, honey, you won’t get anything done, you– you say you don’t think you can be quiet and let that happen. Well, what do you– what’re you going to do to get people to do (tape fade) right. What– what’s going– what you gonna do to get people do right? Just talk? (Pause) Talk. Talk, counsel, counsel–
Marceline: (fades in) – you giving your life, if you can’t get them to– (tape fades). I’m for you pulling out. (Pause) This is where I am. (Pause) If these people cannot be loyal enough, if you feel that they (tape fades) out there to guard you, then what’re you giving your life for ’em for?
Voices: That’s right.
Jones: Well, I think there’re people here that are.
Marceline: Well, then, can’t they guard you?
Jones: There– there’re some of them (fades)
Marceline: I’ll stand out there and guard you. I’ll–
Jones: No, uh– no, no, I don’t want nobody guarding. I don’t– I don’t want– I’ve made it (tape fade) – effecting verses, I want everybody to do self-analysis. There’re no guards. I’m– I’m on that, and I mean it. (Pause) We– (tape fade; edit?) not gonna be any guards.
Woman:: (Near tears) I’m sorry for what I did, Father, I set a pur– poor example, and I’m sorry. And I’m trying to learn, and I think the counsel is wonderful, and they do work hard, and I wouldn’t even be where I wor– I wouldn’t be (tape fade). I’m sorry–
Jones: – fession, you know more than anything, I just want deeds and actions. (Pause) Deeds and actions. I’m tired of words, I am so tired of words, I cannot tell you how tired of words. Your words are not so bad, you make growth. But I don’t to hear anybody’s words, I don’t want a whole line upon line of up here, giving me a lot of confessions tonight. I’ve had confessions for centuries. (Pause) Yes, I, uh– (unintelligible name)
Male: (fades in) – want everyone to say.
2nd male: Well, I uh– (tape fades) I also occasionally use the language. (Pause) Think that the language of mine in the, in the text of the statement last night. However–
Jones: I wasn’t– I wasn’t referring to your language, I said that–
2nd male: Sure. However–
Jones: You’re being defensive. I wasn’t– I wasn’t saying that to you, and I said that, and you shouldna even brought that subject up.
2nd male: Sorry.
Jones: (Struggles for words) I’m– in a very plane of bu– bald honesty. I’ve got to keep it here. Only way you can shock these people is to gi– bring honesty right to home. Risk my life. Do something drastic with the– with the trusted followers, the trusted staff. Make their sins shows. Then take the chance that somebody else will use it for point of rebellion. (Pause) You’ve driven people out of here, in this church, for your– having your own thing. Allowing rebellion to breed in your own home. Having your own group of friends and encouraging them by your rebelliousness. And we’ve lost people in this group, because they’re not a tight-knit (Pause) (tape fade; edit?) in other words, you turn people out to alcoholism and drugs, you’ve turned them out to all kinds of hell, because (Emphatic) you would not uphold this office. I’m not a person. I’m an office. (Pause) An office. My deeds and actions by words. Little rebellions of all sorts and varieties. Little snide remarks. Rebellion. Grimacing looks. Or setting up stage plays to try to make yourself look better than you are. Over the same stupid business. Much of it’s over– all over on sex. You think somehow that if a person didn’t uh, (tape fade) sexual feelings, that makes them not a, um, strong person, or if they had a very strong mixture of something else, that doesn’t make them a strong person. I don’t know what in the world sex has to (tape fade), but you have been victimized by the worst brainwashing that have evers– has ever been known, capitalist brainwashing, that’s made you think that you got to protect your sexual identity (tape fade) as, and that– but you still try to protect it, one way or the other, on the floor, or after you leave the floor. (Pause) (Quiet tone) And if one protects it, everybody’s going to lose uh, the mark and the prize of high calling. They’re gonna lose it. Because unless honesty’s maintained one hundred percent, it won’t be ob– ob– obtained at all. (Pause) The chain isn’t any stronger than its weakest link, not a bit stronger. And we got more than one weak link. It’s the best organization on earth. It’s the best. Best group of people on earth. More honest people on earth. Get a straight answer. Get straight answers from people here. I thought today, someone who said to Peter, strong statement from (Pause) Joy. Very strong statement, about him holdin’ his head down in the other organization. And I thought well, that’s wonderful, he can say– she can say that to you in that sense, to tell you that, why did you hold your head down in the organization, because you knew too much? I thought, well, that’s beautiful that she can say that, but I also think that you– some of the words you use, you don’t need to say. Like when I said I was going to jump on you, I don’t think you shoulda said the way– way– jump on you which way. I don’t think you shoulda said that. That– that– that (tape fade) that, when you said that to me, ’cause I– I– I’m– I’m trying to lift out of this sex plane, I’ve never been in sex with anybody at all, except for their own good. Nobody. ‘Cause I’m not– I don’t– I– that’s the truth. A hundred percent.
Woman: Voice too soft.
Jones: (tape fade) – bad mouth, your bad mouth, your bad words, your vulgar tone, I don’t care, but I do like your straightforwardedness, if you can also season that with love and (tape fade) kindness too, because the straightforwardness was– was– was very (tape fade), but when you say, you, uh, you think that I’m not– I– I– I suppose by my language one thinks that I don’t have embarrassment. I’m an office. I speak what has to be spoken. (tape fade) Yes, that’s all right. (Stumbles over words) know it. But a lot of you think that uh, because I can say anything, I don’t have any feeling. I speak what has to be spoken. But there’s some things that don’t fit in to my frame of reference. (Pause) When you ask me– I think the sister was– I’m using you as a point of illustration. It isn’t the worst thing that’s happened today by any means. I’m just trying everything that comes to my mind, let it come out. (Pause) You sa– (tape fade) You ask me what I would do if I didn’t like something, I said I’d jump you. That’s how it came up. I’d jump on you. (Pause) And I meant I’d give you a verbal lashing, just like you give everybody else.
Scattered laughter.
Woman:: (Voice too soft) – confess my sin and not tell a little lie about it.
Jones: Well, that’s good. That’s good.
(Edit?)
Archie Ijames: I heartily concur with everything that’s come from the office tonight, and I see nothing but absolute fairness. Something I don’t receive anyplace else. And I’m grateful for it.
Woman: in crowd: (Voice too far away)
Jones: Thank you. And now that– that– that’s– that’s real current thinking. Now, you’re in mainstream when you’re talking like that, you’re getting us back on course.
Marceline: Um, Archie, I would like to say one thing. I feel that, since the whole council was there when this happened, that calling Karen and apologizing to Jim was not enough, the whole council should have been involved.
Jones: Well–
Marceline: You know– Of course, it was brought up here tonight.
Jones: Umm-hmm.
Marceline: But uh, naturally it probably– it– it was refle– they naturally would think, if Jim was talking about Karen, they would– he might talk about them, that set up a–
Jones: All of the ramifications of– the ramifications of it are very very uh, extensive, but the fact has been that some of you have not been in a position for me to talk at the time, and pointed positions – not in this reference – but pointed things have had to be made, and I might so– said it to Karen or to Archie or to Jack, that has gotta be taken care of, because, at times, I can only take so much antagonism. But I’m gonna quit it. I’m gonna take all the risks that can be. I’m gonna tell you everything I think. And boy, that’s gonna be rough. (Pause) That’s gonna be rough. I’m gonna tell you just exactly like I see it. Just like (unintelligible word) say with Simon, who’s new. She’s told right, Simon, you covered sin in that old organization. You covered it. And you shouldn’t have. You shouldna done it. You shoulda broke before you did. And you know that’s right. And that’s – I’m gonna just tell it just as straight as I know how – you should– you shouldna covered the thing, and uh, just as I said to Valerie, she shouldna covered that thing with Father Divine. Somebody shoulda exposed him long ago, before people put up forty and fifty years of their life, they shoulda been told, long, long ago, somebody shoulda told what they knew. Because if somebody had told what they knew, long ago, lot of people would have been saved a whole lot of misery. And I mean a whole lot of misery. ‘Cause I know children that’ve gone through great misery because they did what they thought was right. They didn’t go when their children died. They didn’t go when their mothers died. They never went near them, never walked by them, wouldn’t speak to them, because everybody kept silent. Now I want nobody to keep silent. I’ve got nothing on earth – you’re trying to manipulate me – I’ve got nothing on earth I’m afraid to hide. I said I can do anything for socialism. Do anything. By inclination, the only thing I can do is to be an aggressive heterosexual with a man or a woman, I don’t care, whatever you want– be– be– you be the woman, I would do that for socialism. Anything else I’d do further than that would have to be purely (pause) purely because I– I– I’m willing to do it for socialism. But I would do anything in the world to save you. If some bunch of fools wanted to take me as the last living sexual identity, wanted to crucify that, I’d let them do it very quickly, rather than fight with them, ’cause I know that preparing my body, keeping my body alive for you is far more important than fighting somebody off from raping me. That wouldn’t be of the least consequence to me, but if you want me– if– my orientation I have told you is that. I’ve told you what my orientation is. I’m not interested in anything else but being a– a– a– I’m a driving, thriving leader, a principled leader. (Pause) Principled. (Pause) Yes, Valerie.
Woman: in crowd speaks too softly.
Jones: No, darlin’, I’m– I’m gone tell you– I’m tellin’ you– I’m tellin’ you just as straight as I know how. (Stumbles over words) Valerie, Valerie, Valerie? Listen. I think you’re wonderful. I like you, but that point, I don’t care who told me such uh– malarkey as that. When he put you in the bed (Pause) I’da said right then, something is wrong. Something is wrong, if he’s tellin’ everybody else not to be having sex and to live evangelically, not even touch, can’t even have any undue mixing, and I find that to be not even holding uh, anybody’s hands– Of course, uh, as some said, they had the courage to go ahead and hold hands, which I think is– is good, but I think in– (stumbles over words) if you look back on it, we’ll never be strong unless we face it. You should have at that moment said well, that’s not the kind of God I want. A God that tells you “No”– to say something– Don’t you say something, or if you do, you won’t get any more. That showed he had an ego bigger than the mountain. Uh, anybody that would say that– I wouldn’t dream of saying that. Nor would most of us in here say, well, now, here, I’ve given you something, and as you said, it was a miserable experience sexually, according to your interpretation, and you didn’t wish to uh, you didn’t wish to repeat it. You didn’t wish to repeat it. So the– the uh, uh, the fact that what he said to you, that’s the thing I took issue with, is– did I bear record right? I– that he said that uh, if you’d told it, you’d never get it again.
Valerie:: That’s right, yes, Father dear.
Jones: Well, that’s when I woulda been (clicks tongue). I mighta been– I– And I empathize with you. I empathize with this thing, the build-up of God. I– I completely empathize, of him being God, and– but I don’t understand how God would be privileged to do things that his people are not privileged to do. I just don’t understand that. It never made– It doesn’t make any sense to me, how you people were to break every affection, every relationship– Now if he’da said I’m helping you to come (Pause) to sar– sharing, and he did this with a pointed, uh, purpose– but to say, you’ll get no more of it, I don’t understand this. (Pause) I just don’t understand what he was doing, other than– other than using you–
Valerie:: I don’t un– I– (tape clicks on) either, Father. But (struggles for words) as soon as I found out that he wasn’t God, then the Spirit brought it forth. You know, I didn’t speak as a person. You know the Spirit brought that forth.
Jones: Yes, yes.
Valerie:: The Spirit told it, not me as a person.
Jones: Yes, I understand. You need for honesty, and I think you did right, then to implement that by telling the world about it, back there. That’s where they need to hear it. They need to– they ought to hear the whole thing back here. (Pause) (Sighs) Well, of course, but uh, you– (tape fade) cannot uh– one thing you must not do is to hold feelings against someone when they have opened up. (Pause) Our hindsight is always better’n our foresight. Our foresight better’n our hindsight? Whatever, I don’t know. I’m not a philosopher tonight. (Pause) Yes, I guess that’s the way it is. Hindsight is better than foresight. Lot of things we woulda done differently, if we hada been able to do it differently. But now that it’s done – and I appreciate the ones over there in that home, for the most part I don’t see any kind of tensions. Things are better over there, aren’t they, for you? There been no tensions shown to you for your– your confession? That’s the way it ought to be. Whether someone approved of it or not, uh, that– that they should uh, be that way. We should be loving, and we should be forgiving, and we should be– people have to go the extra mile with– all of you. You’re sure as the world can go an extra mile for somebody else for uh, somebody else, ’cause all– all of you not angels. I don’t see any angels budding wings around here. I mean, I don’t see anybody ready to fly off, so we got to be patient with everybody. And uh, this– this we– we are determined to do. But I– I’m just trying to be as s– straight as I know. Deal with things– ‘Course, I have– and my loyalty. There’s one thing too, I admire, is a principled loyalty (Pause) that will go along with something. (Pause) But if you know it’s error, then you should (tape edit?) stand by it until the end of your days. If you’re loyal to something, and (tape fade) right to be dishonest then, then be dishonest all the way. But uh– I don’t– I don’t feel that uh, (Pause) (Sighs) (Under breath) Well, I never heard why– (Normal voice) talk and chat and tiddle and fiddle, read and hunt.
(Pause) (Stricter tone) One thing I will say, too, that I don’t appreciate out of some of you. (Pause) Ah, listen, and gi– give me your attention. You newer people. When I expose my honesty and cut off people– we lost members the other night, we lost, I don’t know, 20, 25 people who didn’t come back. One lady from Sacramento wrote me the nastiest letter you ever read in your day. I know that law or justice will get her, but I don’t take you– I don’t take any satisfaction in that, justice is gonna get her. But I expose myself here, of all I’ve ever done, I just poured it out, what I would do. (Pause) Now I’ve told everything I did it the moment I was doing it, the people were able to take it. That’s why I’m trying to say, stop sex. I want to say that to you. (Pause) I want to say, stop sex, because I don’t want to get on that plane of selfishness. I’ve never been there. I’ve never stayed there. Any moment that I’d get there, it– it would leave. (Struggles for words) I’d begin to think about the well-being of the individual. So I said, I don’t want to get in that plane of being served. Women don’t like men, so uh– other than companionship, camaraderie, close camaraderie. I suppose the sexual orientation, closest I’ve ever seen is, you want pure sexual orientation on the part of the woman is in– in your mother, the mother of your church, and– (Pause) (Tone of finality) That’s truth. If you want absolute pure sexual orientation– but even so, our relationship’s not based on that. (Pause) And uh– I’m no different than anybody else, only even much moreso, in the sense that being strong-driving person, I have, uh, a tremendous, tremendous drive. Tremendous drive. And that would– that’ll never change. I don’t suppose that ever will change. (Pause) But I’ve never used that drive for myself, is what I’m trying to say to you. Never have. You– if you– Proof of it is you marry and go into marriage without any sexual relationship, never having had one, you go into marriage, keep yourself true to one woman, until– 200 babies are starving. That’s a record for itself. Ten years, twelve years? Thirteen years. Thirteen years, no break in the vow. Thirteen years. No interruption. Only then when babies were starving to death (Pause) did we have to interrupt it. By mutual consent. (Pause) I’m– Certainly I– I have to maintain this office to some degree, and I– she has to maintain her office to some degree. And we’re gonna have to give the pre– proper respect for both these positions. That’s where they are. That’s where these positions are, and uh, we– we’re going to have to require that. But after my forthright honesty, (Pause) some of you don’t give me the respect that you gave former pastors. You won’t– you– you– you– you once smiled at me and were courteous. Now you’re not smiling at me. Not you’re not as warm to me. Now you’re much more insolent and smart-aleck. Some of you who did hear– whatever reasons for this in the former experience, that these things happened, uh, like with this sister. You followed and you were cordial, and you’d never thought of giving the kind of lip back to hi– to him that you give to me. You’d never dream of saying the things that people say to me. Now you’re going to hurt the office, if you do this. Today, in two senior citizen homes, things were said to me that would– if other innocents had heard them, they might use it as a– an excuse to commit rebellion.
(Pause) Now as I said today, uh– I got in some messes that were– I don’t like created– one– one of the homes got in the homes, just, just utter disarray. Disarray. Dog manure and that kind of stuff. And I don’t approve of that. If you can’t clean up– but over there, I was just cleaning, because they couldn’t get in to the uh, refrigerator and stove, woman couldn’t get up to that. Or climbing up on lamps. But let me do it. Don’t be making little chides about, well– let him do it. It’s his– you know– or making little fun remarks about it. Uh– Respect the office to some degree. Uh, no– no– no respect for the office, and if you don’t respect it, somebody’s gonna need to respect it, and– and it’s gonna be cut down at the wrong time, and somebody’s blood is gonna be on your hands. ‘Cause if I’m doing the best I can, if you’re not respectful for me, and someone else looks at you, and uses you as an excuse, you are going to have to pay for them. Do I make myself clear on this? I hope all of you stay awake long enough to get this through your heads. But as I said, it really does grieve me– I could keep a movement swelling by the multitudes and thousands, if I’d play games. (Pause) As Archie said it in a word, you’re the honest– you’re honesty personified. You tell what you feel. You tell it straight. You don’t color it. You– you’ll risk losing a movement. I’ll risk it. I’ve many times risked losing a movement– I don’t know how Archie’s going to react to a thing. I don’t try to weigh how he’s going to react to a thing. When I called him over here, I didn’t take any thought about he’s going react to a thing. I just knew right was concerned, and as bad as I need him over there, he’s my right hand or left hand, or whatever you want to call it– preferably left, being where I am. That’s part of my honesty. I would– uh, pre– preferably– preferably not have any chance of losing him, but I would’ve lost him tonight, if that’s where he was. I’d lose uh, Karen, as– as– as evolved as she is, and work, and involved, yes, both of them, evolved and involved. I’d risk losing Harold, ’cause I don’t think he did something principled last night. I’ll risk any one of you.
(Pause) And Jim Cobb. I don’t anything went straight through that– that whole mi– uh, mission. I’m tired of– of– of all these little things, some of them are of lesser magnitude, others greater. And sometimes you’ll be very bold with truth, and then you’ll mix part of error and try to undo all you di– all you do, always saving an out for yourself, making a corner to get out, and taking risks. (Pause) Terrible risks, as the risk was taken Sunday. Their ego couldn’t stand a woman – couldn’t stand a woman – to say to them– or maybe not, but I think that’s what it is, subconsciously, that’s what I’m gonna say, anyway. Wouldn’t let a woman tell them, Jim wants it this way. (Pause) See, every place you go, it’s sex. So I say, for goodness sakes, child, let us try to rise above it. I wish we could enforce you rising above it. (Pause) And I need it so badly. And I go without it so freely. Why in the heck won’t you do it, when you don’t have any need at all? (Pause) You face the living-long lies. Some of you are young, you’ve got lives ahead of you. I face things like having to have the cyanide in the right place. (Pause) Not even trusting my own energy, ’cause I don’t know how to use my own energy to destruct myself. I’m a healer. I wouldn’t know how to kill myself. (Pause) Wouldn’t know how to use my energy to do that. But bef– if you drain me dry before I’d let my body be incapacitated here, I would destruct myself. So it looks like, if I’m willing to not have a day ahead, not one living day ahead, (Pause) I– (Pause) (clicks tongue) nah, if you could, anything to communicate me, because what I’m really trying to do, and it’s hopeless, is with words, is communicate me. And (struggles for words) if I don’t get that communicated, we’ll have these dishonesties over and over again, because back to what I said, brother, your basic reason for lying to me, is that you don’t trust me. (Pause) You wouldn’t have lied to me if you’d trusted me. If you’d believed how dedicated I am, you wouldn’t dream of lying to anybody as honest as I am. Nobody would lie to anybody as honest as I am. If they really knew how honest I was, they wouldn’t do this. They wouldn’t do anything. They’d think constantly, not to do a thing that would– would hurt such an honest person. (Pause)
Marceline: I don’t know, I– (Pause) I can only say that I– sometimes I think, believing that someone is as honest as he is requires too much out of us. And so we have to project and see in him what’s in us.
Jones: That’s Mother’s wisdom. And that’s a point well thought out. I think that’s a very beautiful point of–
Marceline: Another thing I want to–
Jones: Now, that’s what I want you to see, if you had to follow her, uh, at any time, that– that’s– you see, you follow– you follow God. God is principle. God is intelligence, and then you gotta back it up with character. A hundred percent character. She knows that. There’re areas that I’ve dug into her about character. That’s why I won’t let a thing get by. Sunday, when there was a little problem, she was on the floor. I didn’t spare Mother, because Mother’s got to be in a position to carry principle. We’ve been through a lot worse than that. Lot worse disagreements than that. Time in our experience when things were so bad, her dependency on me, her following me as a– as a human being, as a sexual being, as a personal being, and I’ve had even to threaten to break our marriage, right before you, and Mother took it, because she was not following me as a principle, she was following me after the flesh. And her entanglements were on that basis. But she’s risen above that. (Pause) She’s doing things now, of a ma– magnificent new order, and wonderful new commitment uh, to her love to you, to do what she’s now doing, and you can’t– I can’t go into it now. I can’t go into an explanation of it. So it’s tremendous commitment. There’s an entirely new leaf, uh– She has taken these corrections, and now here she’s producing God. God is nothing but highest– highest truth. See, highest truth. She comes on with something here that I didn’t even say, that uh, I– (stumbles over words) ’cause I’m too humble to see it, she can look off and see that. I can’t– I can’t see that. I– I’m– I’m really– I’m very humble, you don’t understand that. I couldn’t see what she just said, because I’m too much involved in it. She said you don’t want to be– see my goodness, because it would require too much of you. And I think that’s true. I think that’s true.
Marceline: The other thing I would like to say (Pause) is, that I don’t quite understand people. When you take out of your day, when sometimes you can hardly got the strength to drag across this parking lot, and go into these homes (Pause) and they would make remarks to you when you climb up to clean their cupboards– (Pause)
Jones: No, just only one little smart remark. (Unintelligible under Marceline) – smart–
Marceline: Well, I don’t know, I wasn’t there– I thing that especially people who have pastors– who have followed pastors and who have followed God in the other consciousness, who never would’ve bothered to climb up and clean a cupboard, and I’ve never seen a pastor yet that has, who would not have bothered to walk in to see you every day, to see that you’re doing fine, I do not understand this lack of respect. I cannot understand it. I think it– Life would be so much easier for him, if he would put himself up on a pedestal and stay out of your way, and then you’d look at him, and you’d respect him. But he’s too honest to do that. (Pause) Now I’m gonna say again, because I want to leave in your mind what I said before, I think you cannot see honesty in him, because it requires too much out of you, and you project in seeing him what’s in you.
Jones: Do you understand what she said?
Congregation: Scattered applause. Yes Father.
Jones: It’s– it’s– it’s a little deeper than–
Congregation: Applause.
Jones: (Conversational tone) It’s a little deeper than what one– one– one would really want to see. She said, you see in me what’s in you, because it’s easier that way. It’s an easier out to see the same kind of weaknesses in me that’re in you. You want to make a God in your image. (Pause) You don’t want to be made in the image of your God. You’re trying to make a God in your own image. And that’s why we have the King James description of Ja– of the Bible God. That’s why we got this God that hated, the God of jealously, the God that had slaves, because somebody made God in their image, instead of letting God, or principle, make you in the image of principle. And let’s watch that, as Brother said, that’s always a tendency, you want to make a God in your own image, instead of working towards something you can’t even relate to. You don’t know how to relate to me. Some of you have never thought of doing what I’ve done for truth. You’ve never been there. You wouldn’t begin to give your life. (Pause) Well, none of you. None of you have uh, have thought in the totality. I cannot– I don’t like to make blanket judgments, because in some areas, you’ll have strengths. Some of you got very strong strengths, comparable to mine. (Pause) Very comparable. But in the total personality that I am, you– you won’t make this commitment. You can’t make it. You won’t face what I face every day. I was thinking today, through lines of– (Pause) Well, I don’t want to go into it, (struggles for words) it’s too painful to go into it, I’m not gone do– But something I would do if I had to do, and I’m tired of tootin’ my horn, ’cause it doesn’t do any good. Go on. Uh, wha– what’d you wish to say? (Pause) You’ve got work to do, and you said all– you said a mouthful. (Pause) And I once say in answer to his uh, last strength, uh charge to him, that one thing has been bad. Because you haven’t been– and it creates this kind of environment, where he can say something (Pause) that somebody else says, that because people in here generally have not been able to take it right from my shoulder, (Pause) there has been at times discussion of things when people weren’t present. So let’s cool that. Let’s cool it. Stop it right dead in its tracks. I don’t know how you’re gonna do it, ’cause too many people follow me jealously. (Pause) (Clicks tongue) Whew. I– I– I’ve never seen the like of this. (Pause) They follow me jealously. (Pause) Sisters’ll do a lot of work commitment. We’ve admitted, I think even the brothers admitted, the work commitment’s more on the sisters. But there’s jealousy between sisters, you cut it with a knife. (Pause) Cut it with a knife. You don’t want a thing from me, supposedly, but principle. That’s all you’re supposed to want from me, is principle. But jealousy– if I– I– I’m getting pl– it– it’s– it’s tragedy. I can’t go in and uh, even hug or uh, kiss anyone– I don’t know what to do. Did it again to me today. (Draws out sentence for emphasis) Every home did it to me today. Somebody did it. (Pause) I gave the affection the way I felt to give to give it, and somebody said, you do it this way. (Pause) You’re gonna fix me up, till I’m not gonna touch anybody. ‘Cause I really feel like giving you love. But don’t tell me how to show it. (Stammers) I– I– I can’t deal with this, uh, so, the way out is to just lay off of any affectionate display. (Pause) I said– they– the– I mean that. In every place I went, somebody today either grabbed my face and put my lips to theirs, (Pause) and uh– I’m not revolted by it, I’m just disgusted that you can’t see a love on a higher plane. ‘Cause it takes a whole lot of higher love to feel as I feel for you. (Pause) But you just can’t get that till you been out there. It’s very hard for some of you, children, you’ve never been in sex at all, and been so many years you been there, you haven’t been– you just– you just can’t relate to this. But it’s a much higher level that I feel for you, than sex. Much higher.
(Pause) ‘Cause I’m– I– I– as I told you, there’s two parts to me. A sexual-driving person. I could take care of every woman in this room tonight – there’s been proof of that – physically. But that wouldn’t be my highest love for you. (Pause) (Clicks tongue) That’s why I never have been able to do it. If there were sexual pleasure, I’d feel the guilt about it. Because it was too self-centered, and then I’d start to work, and it’s too big a work, you can’t do– you can’t give ’em the, uh– you can’t be father, mother, husband, uh, what you are– all that is needed, from a woman to a man. You can’t be that for everybody. And then if you’re God on top of it, they expect you to be it– even a hundredfold times more in every other area than anybody else possibly could be. (Draws out sentence for emphasis) So you have to meet every living need, just exactly right. You’ve got to hear all their problems, and answer them just right. You’ve got to be cautious not to make one mistake. (Pause) So don’t get me on a sex plane, that’s selfish. If I ever quit this work, I’m gonna announce it. And I’ll have the– you’ll le– you’ll hear– you’re hear– uh, hear it, you won’t need to worry about it, I’ll– I’ll announce it, wide and clear. (Pause) And I’ll uh– for two weeks, I may pursue my physical energy. Two weeks, I’ll pursue it wildly, then I’ll settle down again. (Pause) Did you hear what I said? I’m just tellin’ you how it would be. ‘Course I’ll never quit it. I’ve got too much character. And so some of you, you gotta have that experience, go on and do it. If you think that’s what it is, go out there and do it. Be sure you can get yourself back home, though, when you get through. One of our (Pause) people wanted to go out in that sex realm, they end up gettin’ their brains beat out in a hotel room in Oakland. They thought they could get it free, and they– they– they wanted to go try it, and they– oh, they thought they had found it, had a romantic love. And after it was all finished, they got robbed, didn’t have a stitch of clothes, and got their brains beat out, right in the clu– in the, in the, the hotel room. They held– they hauled them out on the morgue. Hauled them out to the morgue. (Sighs) (Pause) (Clicks tongue) Nah, I wouldn’t– I wouldn’t– I– If I went– If I had my choice, if I quit this work tomorrow– I’m trying to be just as utterly honest as I know. (Pause) The sexual need is there, if I couldn’t be creative. (Pause) But I– I do believe, if I could quit this work, and there was somebody to take my place, I would surround myself with little children and animals and senior citizens. (Pause) The real little ones, and then only if I could rear them. Not– and now I don’t have enough time to rear them all. But I sure wouldn’t want to rear them through other people’s uh, hands or face or eyes or minds, but rear them myself. (Pause) ‘Cause I could do a pretty good job. I’d just get enough that I could handle. I’d get me a few animals, and I’d get as far away in some wilderness as I could (Pause) because I like the wisdom of people who’ve lived longer. Some of us– some of you’ve learned something. Some of you’ve lived 70 years, and haven’t learned a thing. (Pause) Then some of you’ve lear– lived 70 years, and it shows, and it’s nothing so beautiful as the process of years. It’s beautiful. (Pause) If you learn something. If you don’t learn anything, you’re just as ugly as all the rest of folk.
(Pause) That’s why I said – and I repeat, there were some wasn’t here last week – I didn’t have any further proposals, but I want this to get all around. See, the government meeting is less tonight than it was before. People don’t like truth. They don’t want truth. They don’t want truth. So the government meeting’s down tonight. We lost members over my forthrightness. But the week before last Sunday, when the young woman who was offering herself to me, and uh– I thought (Pause) yeah, I’ll take a young woman, quick. (Snaps fingers) You want a quickie? Boom, boom. I’ll give you a quickie. But I don’t want to wake up with you. (Pause) Get the straight talk now, you get what I’m saying? Yeah, I’ll take a quickie with you, but I want to wake up with somebody that’s wiser, (Pause) more experienced, more mature. So don’t, young thing, think that you got anything to give your father. ‘Cause you can’t get it unless you’ve lived a while. You can give your father loyalty and virtue and honesty and justice. You stand for the right as you see it. But don’t be so presumptuous as send up a letter and say you’ll take care of me sexually, that uh, you– you– you’d be glad to offer yourself. (Pause) Because I– I– I’ve got a bigger imagination than you anyway. Probably. And I don’t want no more of it. And I’ve been– I– I’ve been getting on average of one kind of proposal like that every weekend. One or another thinks that they– And it’s bad, because of you– you should put up with that, I suppose, that’s why some leaders do put up with it. One got mad and went off in a bus week before last, sat out there on the bus, real angry, ’cause I didn’t uh, bow to her approach. But I’m too bored to fool with people that don’t know anything more than uh, how to manipulate the thing underneath their clothes. I want some communion with mind, I want some fellowship with somebody’s got some love and understanding and experience and– and uh, grasp of world issues, that are concerned about the problems around them, I– I– I– I said– when I say this, you can’t seem to get it. You see one set of breasts, you’ve seen most part all. You– and there’s certainly no difference between the uh, aperture or the opening between the legs. (Pause) No difference. Not a bit. (Pause) I’ve seen it. I’ve seen it. I don’t want no more of it, so go just– just leave it– just leave it where it is. I don’t want to go back to that old plane. (Pause) ‘Cause I m– I couldn’t go back to that old plane. I might live longer if I went back to that old plane. Funny thing is, some of you die from trying to have sex, and I live if I had it. I could relax, you know, just go out and (stumbles over words) I– I’d do a lot of things I could relax, just go out and run through the woods. Whole lot of things. I– I don’t need just sex. Go on a boat ride. No, not very long one, because I get bored. Be people on a boat, wouldn’t there. If I could take their– If I could– If I could swim out with the dolphins, probably I’d have good time. (Pause) But there’re a number of things I could do for energy release. I mean, pure energy release. But most of you with sex, it– it isn’t a quickie, you know. Or if it is, it’s a hostile thing. You leave someone cold and out in the c– out– the state of frustration. So what you uh, you do is make more health problems for you. But actually, I need that release and on my love won’t let me take that release. (Pause) But I’m gonna be very honest with you, so I won’t get that release, ’cause no woman wants just to be a thing in bed, does she?
Voices No.
Jones: So my honesty again cuts me off again from getting anything in bed. Nobody’d want to come to me, ’cause I just told you, if you’re young and beautiful, I want to– uh, maybe that– I might like your body, but that’s all I want right now, ’cause you haven’t had enough time to get anything else. (Pause) Now that’s straight talk. You won’t get that kinda talk anywhere, ’cause I’m cuttin’ off– I got opportunities. Baby, if I wanted to live this thing up, I could get– I could say, come on, God says (stumbles over words), there’s a couch over there, you go and lay down on that couch, and the Holy Spirit’s gonna come in unto you. Oh, foof. (Pause) Such dirty stuff. Using an office like that. If I ever come to you, I’m gonna say, God’s hot, and he wants something, will you accommodate him? (Pause) Hmm? That’s the way to do it. But I’m not about to be bothering you, so don’t get nervous. (Pause) (Stumbles over words) But don’t do– bl– this foolish stuff. The Holy Ghost doing this and the Spirit doing that, and God doing that, and making something holy that just as y– human and just as profane, and just as low as any other monkey or– or any other human ever walked, then try to make it holy. (Pause) And there’ve been movements on it. Really is discouraging. Here we are, the few of us, but least we do feel like we get to know uh, each other to some degree, and I got s– something to tell you. Uh– There’re going to be lesser of us. ‘Cause I’ll do it. One day, you’ll get me fixed, and if you won’t give me any peace here, I’ll take the little ones here that will, older and younger and in between, and we’ll go someplace, and we’ll put us a s– high electric fence around us as possible (Pause) and whatever else we need to deter anybody from coming in on us. (Pause) ‘Cause I don’t want a mass movement of people that can’t uh, know themselves, ’cause ven– eventually the movements don’t last. We may be small, but we’ll last, if we’ll build on principle. (Pause) We’ll be able to survive. Won’t be in such a mess as I said over there in my uh– just grieve here, and I’m talking about the property, what they’re going to do with the property, uh, because not enough people for the property to go around, gonna have to get the money for the property, and should get the money from the property back in peace mission. Think of all those millions of people. Now they haven’t got 300, because they didn’t know where in the wor– which way the wind was blowing. No one really knew anything, didn’t know where it was at. So now they wou– they went after the flesh – thank you – they went after the flesh, and now they’ve gone– got enough people to keep the buildings. So, for a while, it may have looked like a mass, but now it’s a mess. We may look like a mess, but we can be a mass, if we’ll build on right, if you get to know me, and get to know my character, you’ll stand, whether I’m in the body or out of the body, what I’m doing, you’ll stand on, and more than that, you might come and do what I’m doing. I might be able to teach you how to be God, and I can send you over someplace else, you can be God over that territory. If you’d ever grow up, I’d send you out and make you God– I’d say, I’m God in California, you’re God in Nevada. (Pause) (Under his breath) You don’t understand. (Normal voice) You don’t understand what I’m saying. I can create you in my own image and likeness, if you’d let me. Now I can’t give you my gifts, my power, but I could make it look like it. I could send you out in my name. (Pause) But you gotta grow up. And last time I mentioned that, why, the people come up here– clowns. Clowns wantin’ me to send them out. (Pause) Clowns, didn’t have any love for anybody, like that s– silly woman here last Wednesday night, stood up here and said she’d like me, she had a gift like me.
Murmurs of derision.
Jones: Afore she got through, she’d lost something, couldn’t find it. Lost her camera, couldn’t find it. That night– and fell out on the floor, ’cause her camera was lost. Fell out there on the floor, bemoaning her state. She was like me. (Pause) So, get on with the business of character control. Get to the place where you can control your appetites. You really don’t know– some of you don’t know what this is, you’ve never had an appetite. You gotta have it, then you control it. Control your drives, control what you want to do. Control all those things that pull on you, to such a degree that you can control all of the pressures that come to you, that you can turn them of– down at least, and keep your course. That you won’t lose your course, that you’ve got control over everything that influences you. You’ve got to be in that position, so that something can’t get you off. (Pause) Now until you do – and stop playing these games, I’m not gone deal with people tryin’ to put up in a sexual image, or trying to move from one flower to another, and then say, well, I’m homosexual, think that takes care of it. That’s what a lot of this business is, say, I’m homosexual tonight and then out tomorrow will be flirting with somebody. Better not be, ’cause if it comes back, boom. This council will deal with it.
Single voice: Right.
Jones: Get it in control. If I see you can get things in control, I can send you out. I want to send some of you out. We could reproduce this thing. We could extend this thing. I could trust you. (Voice rises) I’m trying to see how much I can trust you. I’ve got to get you to know yourself. I wish I was big enough to go to bed with each one of you, in the sense of not sex, but just time to talk with you, time to communicate with you, and show you a lot about yourself. Things you don’t think you know. Some of you women think you’re free of this experience. I could make you realize that you got the same identity problems every other woman’s got. I could get you close to it. I could take every man with the driving sex I’ve got, and make you realize how passive you are. I come on to you, you ju– you might not be the particular body prototype that you like, but when I got through with you, you’d realize you’re passive. (Pause) You understand what I’m saying?
Several voices: Yes, Dad. Yes, Father.
Jones: (Voice returns to conversation) When you get up against utter strength, there’s going to be passivity. (Pause) And I’m the most utmost of strength, but I can develop it in you. (Pause) But not after this image of what we thought the outward appearance, not by a clothes style or swaggering or (Pause) the way you handle a car, or the way you can– (Pause) your stances or your affectations with women, or brothers, or the way you carry a gun, or whatever. It’s something far different from that. And I beg you, I beg you to come into this school that I’m teaching. I’m the Godship degree, or the socialist-ship degree. And I’m trying to get some people ready to do my work. And all of you can do this. Some of you can’t sing. We might have to send singer with you. I’ve used my voice to do everything, destroyed it. (Pause) But we could get some character control here that would enable us to really expand this movement till it’d never be able to run out. (Pause) Now, because nobody knows who’s the leader is of the Mission East, we got no leader. (Pause) Father told me in the corner, the man was on you. Told me and s– I’m sure, I– I’m sure that uh, Mary must– St. Mary heard him. But she not gone tell it. So never anything was ever told publicly. I thought today I’d tested your spirit, did uh, Father have you doing Social Security, (stumbles over words) I mean, the peace mission had you doing Social Security on those children, tellin’ ’em not take Social Security. And this kinda stuff– well, this is only coulda been exposed– this could only been exposed. (Pause) It made a– the things that you had to do behind the scene, that this coulda been brought out. (Pause) (Sighs) But no– no lines of authority. Mother wasn’t even told she was to be the– the head of that movement, that just some assum– assumption, they said, listen to Mother, but she certainly was never told to be God. No one ever– he never even suggested she be God. Said, I lifted you up, you could fall. I’m not quoting him exactly, and certainly he would know what a fall was, ’cause he took some. But (Pause) today we have no real work of socialist-se– ship or Godship degree on the East coast, and I’m grieved over it. So– some say, why are you preoccupied with it over there? That was supposed to be a glowing work, that’s on my mind. That’s not supposed to go the way it’s going. (Pause) That’s terrible the way that’s gonna go. Dying like flies, and no use to take on the– on the reins. We were meant to get ourselves together, so we could extend the work, but it’ll never get done, because no clear established rules– and there was too much build-up of one personality. Build up one personality, till no one could do anything. So why you’ve got to get to place where you can do things. This council has to be trusted. People’ve try to circumvent this council, say, I ca– I won’t go to the council, I won’t tell the council. Yes, you will. Because we’re gonna have to have other people that have the authority in this group (Pause) and if the one– you can’t trust one of ’em, then tell me who it is, and we’ll throw ’em off, till you get somebody up here you can trust.
Voice in crowd (Marceline?): They’re all trustworthy.
Jones: Well, true. (Pause) But I’m saying, let’s correct anything tonight you don’t like. Let’s have a real knockdown drag-out, and correct anything you don’t like, so that you can get everything up here straight. If you don’t think somebody up here don’t belong, you let– let ’em know what’s the matter, and we’ll try to correct it. I’m gone say one thing right off the bat. There’ve been a report to me, and – honest – that some of you who are on this council leave at one o’clock in the morning. Or noo– midnight. Or you leave when you please. You are not so privileged. If you’re on that council, you are to stay all night long. You leave when everybody else leaves. That applied to you, and Grace Stoen. That’s who I was told about. (Pause) That you leave early, and she leaves early. You and Karen. That’s what I was told. See, I’m, uh– we’re gettin’ out of this realm, what I was told. Who told me? Uh, who did tell me? (Pause) I don’t– you told me? No, you didn’t tell me. (Pause) Did you tell me?
Voice too soft.
Jones: You didn’t tell me, though. What are you tryin’ to do, take the blunt? You didn’t tell me. (Pause) I’ll tell the truth on you, I don’t think anybody told me.
Voice: Yes (unintelligible)
Several voices compete, too soft.
Jones: Well, (stumbles over words) sometimes I don’t know whether I’ve been told or (unintelligible phrase). (Pause) You didn’t tell me. You can swear on your life you didn’t tell me, you hope you drop dead, you didn’t tell me. What’d you say– what made you think uh– you– you’ve had such a thought. But you didn’t tell me. (Undertone) Now, I– no. All right. (Normal) All right, well, uh, uh, now see, that cause division. No– nobody got any privilege to leave this council– if one gotta stay all night, we all gotta stay all night. Now I want you people to be able to take it quickly, so that they can get on with their work, and not have to prolong things. There’s too much– ‘course, not all the people here in the council– maybe this can be replayed for them. Don’t have any uh, unnecessary rhetoric. Get to the point. But if you’ve got disagreement with some member of the council, you stop that meeting right there. (Pause) Dead. Stop it dead. And say, I– I want to have a pause, and uh, then you can dismiss whoever you’re talking to, another room, and iron out the difficulties. ‘Cause I know that sometimes council’s going to see things differently. You’re not going to think that it’s going the right course, and uh, you– you have privilege to stop and discuss that. (Pause) Yes.
Long pause. Low conversation in church.
Jones: All right. I– I just throw it out that– this– this occurred to me. I know you’ve got other things to do, both you workers got other things to do, but we’re just try to have this kind of frank– frank discussion.
Voice too soft.
Jones: Yes. Yes. Certainly. (Pause)
Male: I wanna– I wanna get– I want to get all the bridges burnt behind me tonight. (Pause) (Sighs) I’ve se– I’ve seen the love (Pause) of this Father who sits in front of us, so keen, and that I’ve trampled it like pearls before swine. I’m a homosexual. I’ve had active homosexual relationships. With a man. And I tried to hide it. Father knew about it, and he told me about it. (Pause) But I kept trying to hide it, ’cause I wanted to be this image of a man that I thought was supposed to be an image of.
(Tape edit of unknown duration)
Jones: Now, you are.
Congregation: Applause.
Jones: That’s straight talk, man, straight talk.
Male: I’d rather leave this work than jeopardize you. My children look up to you. (Pause) I’ve looked up to you. (Pause) But I’ve been an ass. I misused it. (Pause) (Sighs) I’ll– I’ll take a minor role, I’ll help any way I can to see that everything is done the way it’s supposed to be. ‘Cause I’m not a man yet. I’m trying to be.
Jones: Now, let’s get out of this–
Male: I’ve seen– (Unintelligible word) I’ve tried to be a human being. I’m not even a human being.
Jones: – this man. You– you– you’re not mature. You’re not mature. You’re– you’re mature enough for me to uh, place a gun in your hand tonight, and I wouldn’t have 15 minutes ago. So you can have– you can have a gun. As of tonight.
Congregation: Applause.
Male: I saw something tonight that I haven’t seen for a long time. And I don’t know why I’m so thick-headed. (Pause) (Sighs) Now I fooled around with five or six women in this church, trying to prove something. And I didn’t prove anything. Just how weak I was. (Pause) (Sighs) So I want to be strong. I saw character last night, and I saw character this afternoon in Jim Bogue. (Pause) I saw him reflect Father. I thought I was someplace one time– hmm–
Jones: He– I didn’t catch that last phrase– I didn’t catch that last–
Male: Jim Bogue’s– I said I thought I was someplace one time. I thought I was evolved. I may have been, but I sure regressed. ‘Cause I saw more character in him than I’ve demonstrated for six months. And I appreciate that, Jim.
Jones: Thank you.
Male: I, uh–
Jones: Glad to know about it. There’s a public record myself, because it’s (unintelligible word) consistent with what I showed out there when I didn’t even know him. (Unintelligible words) other thing.
Male: I just want everyone to know what I am, so that I don’t have any chances to make any backtracks from this night on.
Jones: Well, thank you–
Male: I want to be a friend to you as (Pause) as females and a friend to you as males. I don’t want to play any more games. Father’s right.
Jones: God (unintelligible)– They need some friends. They need some friends.
Male: I need friends.
Jones: We all need–
Male: I’ve alienated myself from you, so you couldn’t even be a friend to me. Father’s found it hard to be a friend to me, because of the way I treated him. Well, he hasn’t found it hard to be a friend to me, but I– I’ve just alienated myself so badly. (Pause) I’m sorry, Father.
Jones: Thank you–
Male: I apologize, council, because I misrepresented, and I didn’t tell the truth last night. I think I’ve told the truth tonight.
Jones: I think you have done very, very well.
Male: Thank you, Father.
Congregation: Applause
Jones: And– I don’t– I don’t suppose that Jim Bogue has a– a gun, but he oughta have– Does he have one? Does he have one?
Bogue: I have one.
Jones: Is he licensed?
Bogue: No.
Jones: We ought to process him, when a man with that kind of character– I saw the character in you before– in his endorsement of you, because he has been with me 20 years, and I trust his judgment in a lot of ways, in spite of his, as he said, regression. And anybody can digress– Digress is probably more fair, much more fair word– be diverted by one little point of– one little area of unreconciled behavior problem can get you off course. (Pause) Doesn’t blanket– uh, blot out your character points and strength in other areas, but it certainly can divert your energy. Um– so now, that– that– I feel good about them, because I un– unhesitantly said that there would be no gun, but now I can say that there’s one. And that applies to all the rest of you, I uh, I want to hear more about your knowledge of yourself, some of you have not– some of you out there not been confronted with all the things you’ve done, um, all that have guns, I– I’ll have to have some proof that you really are in alignment with what I’m doing. (Pause) and understand me and communicate with me and feel like I feel. ‘Cause I’m going through this thing with guns, right down the line. I want to just– prove one here tonight, and it’s going to be one by one. Yes.
Male: (Emotional) Father. I want to thank the council and all the things that’s happened in the last day or so. For the first time in the 18 years, which will be eleventh of this month the wife and I have been married, that we have– I believe we have felt true honesty with each other this morning. I believe now that we’ve– will have a relationship that we’ll be able to build up on. And I thank you, Father.
Jones: And that’s wonderful. That’s wonderful. Thank you.
Applause
Jones: You know– I don’t like to remember his experience because it uh, brings to light other people’s mistakes and people’ve far redeemed those mistakes since then, but I don’t want to ever forget the experience of this man. Some of you never were around when it happened. (Pause) I went away for a little while for a meeting for a few days, and I had instructed the (Pause) church officers not to allow any gift to be received of surplus foods. (Pause) Well, some one way or another, people forgot it or did what they chose, uh, through, uh, ego, and we got in a mess. They accepted surplus foods. This brother was one of those trucks, and they’d drive in an open noon-day, just like they was doing the right thing, right down through the main town with truckloads of surplus food. Who should see him but the head of the surplus food program. Pulled him over and stopped him. The only– only ordeal we’ve ever had in this group, it looked like, gone tear us up. (Pause) Everybody from (Pause) the local welfare people to the United States Department of Agriculture was on our back within a matter of hours. I want you to hear this, because there’s a lot of things come into play on this subject. (Pause) Everybody was on our back, and this man was the only one they caught. And he wouldn’t tell on anybody else. And I didn’t know him hardly. He and I had never said three words to communicate. He didn’t know his Father. I never healed him of a fatal disease. He just had taken me purely by faith. He didn’t know I didn’t send them out there. He didn’t know a thing about it. He wasn’t the one that violated my instruction. It was one of my officials that told him to go out there, so he thought I told him to go out there. On the contrary, I told him not to go out there, but he’s out there. And he never told who was out there. Little dirty snakes, that’s how much– how little they appreciate honesty, too. They oughta been able to see it. They wanted to railroad him. (Pause) (Speaks slowly) He held his ground. He would not tell anybody else. If there was anybody else, he wouldn’t tell it. (Pause) And then– out here in the aisle, in the driveway, they wanted to uh, then divide me by saying well, if you weren’t here, and we’ve established that, you didn’t know anything about it, if you’ll send– let him take the blunt of it, it’ll be all over. He’s the one we’re after. (Pause) I said, no, you take him, you gotta take me. And then Tim Stoen, who was assistant attorney spoke up and said, yeah, and you gotta take me.
Male voice in crowd: That’s right.
Jones: And all those boys looked around at us, and thought they’d never seen anything like this. We’re going to have to take one, you’re going to have to take ’em all, and uh– and uh– they could tell adamantly in our voices, that’s exactly what we meant. They gonna have to drag him– in fact, I expected and knew they’d have to drag him away from us if they tried to take him, ’cause we looked very, very determined in our position. (Pause) And the only thing saved us there was letter-writing. That’s one of the reasons I’m bringing this up. Support. We’d sent letters to people who were in the right places. We’d voted for people as I had been told. And if we hadna voted and supported ri– right people, it came up, we were ready to be blasted. And those politicians runnin’ interference for us, and saved our– the enemies from hittin’ us, ’cause we had done nothing wrong. We had a right to take surplus foods, but a little technical thing in which, uh, uh, we’d violated this r– uh, statute. And they coulda sent us up the river. That’s why I never would let this– and I don’t want no surplus foods now, and get that across, don’t you bring no surplus foods here. Not even a can of it. ‘Cause you’re not allowed to give those surplus foods to anybody. If they’re given to you, they’re for you only. And you better understand that. Every now and then, we got to– we got to take something and dump it. We dump it. They bring a can in here, we won’t– we won’t di– distribute it.
Male voice in crowd: That’s right.
Jones: Don’t you bring anything that says Surplus– U.S. Surplus Foods. You have to use it yourself. It cannot be given anyone else. But I uh– I thought it was indeed wonderful that here, I– people had followed my instructions and we did have certain in– people we’d influenced, and when they tried to put the ax on us, we had those people fight all the way United States Agriculture Department. They didn’t give up easily. U.S. Agriculture Department came back after him again at his door. He wouldn’t talk. Several times they came. He wouldn’t talk. He shut the door. Say, I ain’t got anything to say to you. (Clicks tongue, like door closing) They come over to me. I said, it still stands the same way. We’ve done nothing wrong. Do you want him? You gotta take me. You gotta take the whole church. And I never will forget the last time that Agriculture Department man was here. He shook his, um– scratch– scratched his head, he said, I’m glad somebody else is taking my job.
Congregation: Laughter.
Jones: And that’s the last I ever saw him. ‘Cause he didn’t know what to do with us. And that’s been – what – two years ago? Something like that. (Pause) So it pays to follows instructions and it– one thing it pays, never be divided. That’s a classic example of uniting a front tonight, brother. Bringing in the uh, short ends. Archie did the same thing before he went back to work. He said (unintelligible word) defensive– we attacked him about his defensiveness– he just shut it short, he says I’ve seen honesty like I’ve never seen before. That was pulling the ro– the gu– the loose ends in. Everybody pulling the loose ends in. Now, see, we may look like we’re divided at the beginning of a night, and we may seem to be tottering, but the old ship of state right now, ten of ten, is in damn good shape.
Congregation: Cheers and applause.
Jones: Thank you. That’s what it takes. Honesty can heal any situation. Love with honesty. But nothing else. Just be honest, until you can become loving. But you do have a responsibility to be cordial. As I said to uh, Joy, I appreciate that forthrightness with Simon, to tell him, but– it also by saying– the same thing shoulda been said, I could understand, maybe if I’da been in your position, I mighta done the same thing. You never know. (Unintelligible word; tape edit?) can always say that, ’cause you don’t know what you’da done, you’d been in his job. You understand what I’m saying?
Murmurs of assent.
Jones: You just don’t know for sure what you’d do if you were in Simon’s job, unless you got Simon’s job. You can say, well, I’d have– if I’da been so-and-so, I’da done so-and-so. No, you don’t know what you’d done if you’d been so-and-so, ’cause you’d been you-and-so. (Pause) So you just– you don’t know what so-and-so’s going to do, or what so-and-so had to do, so it’s eh– it’s just best to say, I think– this is what I think I would’ve done. But still, I love you. I don’t approve of what you did, but I love you. And I love those changes you’ve made, the growth you’ve (stumbles over words) demonstrated. And I’m fond of uh, what I see here, the very definite streak of honesty that can be called forth. So let’s try honesty, but let’s most clearly make this known. And that doesn’t mean just cut cut cut. You say what you feel, but also show the cordiality with it, or let the person know you care. Let them know some way you care. Some people think all’s required under this new dispensation is just saying everything comes to your mouth. (Pause) You understand what I’m saying? Please? Give the water around. Hold your hand up in the air– Hold it up high if you want water, that won’t distract me. Uh– Just be sure, though, that you do try to keep peace. And remember uh, this, al– I repeat, the best follower will be the one that’ll go the furthest for peace. Someone showing their rear end? Then you keep your peace, and go the extra mile. You’ll be the best follower. Right?
Scattered voices: Right.
Jones: You go the extra mile.
Scattered voices: Right.
Jones: Yes.
Voice too soft.
Woman:: This, uh, keeps recurring to me and uh, at this moment, I feel very strongly, uh, last year, when we were in Philadelphia, and we saw the adulation which had been lavished on leaders who didn’t deserve it, one of the– my companions, a young woman in the uh, Temple, said to me, I’m so glad that our prophet hasn’t taken that trip. And I said, if he had taken it, I wouldn’t be on it. Now, I hope that you mean it– you know what I mean. Uh– some of us – and I think, most of us – love him because of the things that he will do for us on the human level, and the fact that he doesn’t let us give him diamond rings and cars, nor accept our worship. I just felt moved to say that we do appreciate you. (Short pause) He isn’t there. (Laughs) That’s how (unintelligible word)–
Congregation: Applause
2nd woman: Well, I took the same trip last summer, and in a way, I think the people back there had something over us. They listened and– when something was said. When those tapes were played, and– I thought Father Divine was a horrible speaker, I thought he was boring, I thought he didn’t have anything to say. Out of all due respect for you children – and I respect you, ’cause you’re here and anything that brought you here, fine – but I– I listened and it was boring to death. But those people sat, and they even watched that tape recorder or whatever it was it was coming from. And when (Pause) someone who represented the office of that time came from Mother which I think (unintelligible word)– I think we all share her thoughts of her, they watched her, and they listened to her. When people– When they would stand out there for an hour waiting for her to come out, just to watch her – and she wasn’t anything to look at – we can’t even be quiet. We can’t stop from talking to our neighbor. We can’t stop from reading a newspaper. We can’t stop from writing in address books. We have to go in– to the bathroom. We have to have somebody walking up and down the aisle – I’m not saying it’s the older people, but, you know – bringing us drinks of water. Wo– I don’t know. (Pause) In a way, I almost wish that he had been that way, because maybe then we’d listen. And when things–
Voice in church far away.
Same woman: I know. I’m not saying I would be. But I’m saying, the respect that I saw there for nothing, we’re not getting for everything. And I think we had a lot to learn about the respect that went on back there, that we haven’t got here. And I for one didn’t keep it. So I’m as guilty as anybody else.
Jones: Well, I heard both– both comments, uh– (sighs) it’s a– it’s a problem. (Pause) If you win people, usually, initially, the ma– mass of people are not where Professor [Edith] Roller would be. To have missed Professor Roller would be a great loss, ’cause she’s a thinking person. She follows out of commitment of mind, not guts, but mind. But a great mass of people, even with slightly lesser intellect than, than Professor Roller, are reached by enthusiasm and um, (Pause) the ardor of that kind of a– not the worship per– directed to me but the ardor of it. (Tape edit?) Little of it Sunday. (Pause) Uh– there was respect, there wasn’t anybody bowing before me, but it– it– it caused an enemy to get up and leave. Enemy that would’ve uh, taken their chances of doing bodily harm. Wasn’t connected with the peace mission, we have another enemy here, strangely enough, that was interested in doing something. Scouting the field. But that overwhelming zeal scared the liver out of him. He took off. It was a black man, seated by Sister Mueller, right next to her, and he took off.
Woman in crowd: Yes, and I seen that too, and I feel it was because you cleaned shelves. (unintelligible) come in and–
Jones: Yeah, right, right. And I– I think that what one has to know, uh– oh you don’t– you– you worship– you worship lively, you don’t seem like a dull sort. No one would ever think you were uninspired. I uh– What do you do with these intellectuals who come in who think that they’re pride themselves so much on not being a follower, (stumbles over words) really what they’re pride themselves, you know, is, is being rebellious (short laugh) and they want to be anarchistic, and they pride themselves in this, but I– we– we got to find some leverage which we catch those people (Pause) before they get in here. (Pause) I would say, people be at the doors and scrutinize a little bit more, screen them– For instance, we find a Ukiahan– this– my statement ought to be (struggles for words)– how many people are greeters? (Pause) I don’t like just talk. Greeters. Greeters. Those who greet people at thedoor. You get their names and you greet them. (Pause) I think we’re going to have make a stronger movement uh– build up a stronger organization to meet everyone, ’cause we run into real trouble here Sunday. We had a priest– he was here for no good, and I got him out of here, but it was– it was rough, because he was already in. Let’s take it automatically. If you see a Ukiahan– (Pause) Unless– well, I don’t think you can take any “unlesses”. She so– you should take their address– oh, I will be so in– glad to invite you to a meeting later, this happens to be our confessional meeting. Every one is. This is the meeting where we have catharsis, and we’re home very rare, which is true. So uh– (Pause) Minute they say they’re from Ukiah, ’cause I’ve had a certain instruction about that. Say, now you– if– if uh– give me your name and address, and phone number and I’ll– I’ll personally – and I mean to hold to see it’s done that way – see, it’s gotten right in, right there, the– say, don’t want to lose that address, Christine, I’m looking at you, I’m counting on you to implement this. I see how many other uh, greeters. (Pause) Laura. Say, I’ll personally, personally uh, invite you when we have a meeting, regular puglic– public meeting. We’ll say and– but you gotta give them more reasons for this. Say that, in this confessional meeting sometimes, people don’t feel at ease unless they know everybody. (Pause) Most important is to get uh, these intellectuals that hit us from Ukiah, ’cause we’ve had trouble all week long. Karen certainly hasn’t relegated any work there. She’s done everything I’ve told her to do, but I’ve had to make uh– I had a certain set of wisdom for her to follow, explicitly, with the Roman Catholic priest, who thought he was a– a Greek priest who thought he was a prophet– a, a psychologist and so forth and so on. (Pause) If you run into these– these psychologists, some of you gotta get some things in your head. We gotta have a little schooling tonight. We need some briefing. We can’t put it in writing. Maybe this oughta go round by telephone. Some things you need to know when you’re dealing with psychologist. Psychiatrists– Say oh, yes, we’ve been praised very highly by one of the heads of the hospitals here. We were. Don’t give the man’s name, though, it’s Van Dusen, but don’t give it, because you might cause some pressure and he might back down under pressure. Or Dr. Perkins, the one that saw the miracles of the cri– the cripples walk, and the cancers pass, and he said it for real, we got his letter. Said, we got the head of a state hospital, psychiatrist, doctor, who has said that the– this is the most honest and humanistic– I mean, you mention that too, to a psychologist. They’re not so much interested in miracles as they are what Professor Roller’s saying, the character. You tell about what the guy– what I’m doing. And I will. I work, I clean, I uh, do every other thing uh, that any human being should be that’s dedicated to help their fellow man. (More emphatic) But then you project, that we’ve got a doctor who’s a head of hospital in Los Angeles – that’s safe enough, I don’t want to put him under pressure, either, ’cause it could get him some trouble with that American Medical Association, but it’s Dr. Perkins, head of the big hospital there, who said these miracles are undeniably real. He set there service after service and watched them. Looked at the growths, saw the cripples, and he said, they’re undeniably real. He’s a medical doctor and a psychiatrist. And if you quote this – and here’s the reason you quote this – ’cause these devils want to go out, and thinking they’re psychologists, they’ll give us some trouble. But if they know other psychologists and psychiatrists have praised us, and other doctors have praised us, then they don’t want to look like they’re in– a fool, you see. You see what I’m sayin’? I don’t care who comes there. If it’s an engineer? We’ve had engineers praise us. Politicians? We’ve have politicians praise us. (Pause) Law enforcement people– and then always drop, with everybody, we’ve had wonderful letters of praise from law enforcement people all over this United States, particularly in the Bay Area and local. (Pause) ‘Cause people come in here– this, this Greek bunch was here to cause– I don’t know what’s up with these people. Liz Forman, are you here? She working? (Pause) What’s with these people, anyway, that you work with?
Voice too soft.
Jones: (Stumbles over words) (Pause) Do they talk of– to the church, do they talk through the church uh, uh, to you? Talk against the church to you?
Voice too soft.
Jones: They said you invited them. Did you invite them? They said again today, they– this week, that you invi– they– you invited them. (Pause)
Microphone turns on. Pause
Liz: Did you get the message that I– I– they told me they were coming, and they were going to bring this psychia– this psychologist. And, you know, I tried– I said– I (unintelligible word)
Jones: The thing you shoulda done at that very first uh, juncture, is to– for us to get these instructions so clearly, say, we’re– well, we’re not having a meeting yet. Say, I’m sor– I’m sorry that there’s no meeting of– open to the public, it’s just a business meeting and catharsis. So there no way. You shoulda stopped it right there, rather than have this embarrassment of having to have them move. ‘Cause if they had heard some of the words that I used, socialism, so forth, they coulda been real trouble. That Greek– I have a fe– strongest feeling that this Greek outfit is connected so much with, not only the orthodox Greek Church, but it’s connected with the infamous situation over in Greece. (Pause) I have the strongest feeling that they are connected with fascist right-wing elements.
Liz: Now that–
Jones: And uh– we sure don’t need a– we don’t need that kind of– and the Gre– the Greek government, to you that don’t know it, and that’s why you need to be politicized, or be informed, you need to watch the ner– the news, the Greek government’s the most racist government, the most dictatorial, tyrannical government today. And tho– when you get somebody Greek pre– but in the first place, you get any preacher coming through there, I– I was so disheartened with the nation today, that took a TV poll of who was the most trusted in the– in the United States. Who the people trusted the most. Doctors first, and preachers second. I thought, boy, the people of America are really bad off. Trust in preachers second. I’d trust a preacher last. (Pause) I’m not a preacher. I don’t fit that role. ‘Cause the best of ’em, even as we’ve heard here discussed in the movement in the East, you can’t trust. One thing I thought Purity said to me today that was very good, I thought that’s wise, if I taught her that, that’s fine, said Father’s taught me one thing, to listen to anything I– believe what I hear. (Hmphs) Well, that’s good. If it’s taught you that. It’s taught you to keep your ears and eyes open.
End of tape
Tape originally posted October 2000