[Editor’s note: As the cover note suggests, this is a transcript of a taped meeting between Charles Garry and Maria Katsaris in Jonestown on an unknown date in September 1978. Other Jonestown leaders in attendance included Jim Jones, Marceline Jones, Carolyn Layton, Harriet Tropp, and Eugene Chaikin. The pdf transcript identifies participants by initials, but for the ease of reading, the names have been spelled out below. In addition, the original transcript has little punctuation; it has also been provided below.]
BB-22-m-1
10/14/78
Carolyn [Layton]
Attached is a transcript of the interview Charles G [Garry] had with Maria in Jonestown.
This dwells on the actual molestation question, and Daren and Charlie and I think that Maria should study it with Sarah [Harriet Tropp] and [Eugene] Chaikin to draw up an affidavit which she will be comfortable with, that is, to talk about if questioned again by legal counsel.
from June [Crym]
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m-2
Charles Garry interview with Maria Katsaris, September [blank space] 1978, in Jonestown, Guyana, S.A.
Talking re molesting of Maria by Steve Katsaris…
Charles Garry: As far as you know, you never had a discharge of his semen in your mouth, is that right?
Maria Katsaris: Right.
Garry: I asked you, and you weren’t very definite, and I would like you to be as definite as you can, were any of these plays that he was doing with you, you were doing with him, did he ever say anything at the time, any words of endearment, encouragement, discouragement?
Katsaris: Well, I remember when I was older, he used to say that I was hung up, that I should learn to relax more. I can remember him also threatening me also not to say anything about it. When I was older, the thing was that I had a problem, that I was sexually hung up. The implication was that there was something not normal about myself. Then other times he would threaten me and say that I would be sorry if I told anybody about that, nobody would believe me, that if I did say something about it, they were all think I was weird.
Garry: How did he happen to threaten you, how did that come about?
Katsaris: That I better not say anything to my mother.
Garry: How did he happen to say that, how did it come about, what initiated it?
Katsaris: At times I would protest, not want to comply with what he wanted, and he would say I better do it, that I better not say anything to anybody.
Garry: Did he ever come around when you are having your period?
Katsaris: Yeah.
Garry: What would he do when you were having your period?
Katsaris: He usually didn’t mess with me on my period.
Garry: It was after your period that he would mess with you, is that right?
Katsaris: Yes, right.
Garry: When did you first begin to realize, or did you realize, what he was doing to you was not normal or not right?
Katsaris: I didn’t realize it when I was a child, but when I got older… It was something that always happened, so I’d say maybe 10 years on, that’s my impression.
Garry: In other words, you were about 15?
Katsaris: No, younger than that, 10 to 15.
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m-3
Garry: Would he play with your clitoris?
Katsaris: Yes.
Garry: Just a short time, or a long time?
Katsaris: Sometimes it would be for quite a while, and sometimes just briefly.
Garry: Did you get any satisfaction from him doing it?
Katsaris: No.
Garry: You wouldn’t get any kind of satisfaction from him playing with you?
Katsaris: I don’t remember anything when I was a small child, and when I got older, no, because I felt very uncomfortable.
Garry: Did you orally copulate with him?
Katsaris: When I was a smaller child, I would do it to him, and when I got older, I didn’t do it.
Garry: Would he ask you to do it?
Katsaris: Yes.
Garry: What would you say?
Katsaris: No.
Garry: Did that irritate him, what would he say?
Katsaris: He’d say shit like, what’s your problem? He always used to say things like I was a weirdo, or I had some kind of problem, but as I got physically bigger, he didn’t press the issue.
Garry: But he would orally copulate.
Katsaris: Yes.
Garry: When did this terminate, when did it stop?
Katsaris: Well, it stopped for a while when I was in high school, and then when I moved up to Redwood Valley, this other thing happened, and that was when I left.
Garry: I’m interested in the time before he actually penetrated you with his penis. Had this fondling and copulation and whatnot been going on for some time before that? This was after you’d already finished high school, was it not?
Katsaris: When he actually penetrated me? Yeah. See it stopped when I was in my later years in high school, I was 17 or 18, so then I wanted someplace to go, when I wanted to get away from my house in the Bay Area, I went up there.
Garry: What I’m trying to find out is how long have you been there after the high school, and after there was a cessation of this relationship? What transpired immediately or some weeks before this?
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m-4
Katsaris: I’d already gone to college for a semester.
Garry: What college was that?
Katsaris: The College of Mendocino.
Garry: And where will you living at the time, with him, where was he living?
Katsaris: He was living in Ukiah.
Garry: And did you go home on weekends.
Katsaris: No, I lived there. Occasionally I would go up there, other times he would come down every week or so and see me in the Bay Area.
Garry: Where did this penetration take place?
Katsaris: In his house in Redwood Valley.
Garry: How long had you been living there before then?
Katsaris: I say, maybe 4 months.
Garry: And in that 4 months time, before he penetrated, had he been making love to you?
Katsaris: No. He hadn’t messed with me. He divorced my mother and he had an affair with another woman he later married.
Garry: Was she living in the house, they were shacking up together?
Katsaris: Yeah.
Garry: What was her name?
Katsaris: Anne Comaja [Tomaja].
Garry: Where was she on the day, or the night, whatever it was, that he penetrated?
Katsaris: I don’t remember; she used to take night classes, or work at night; a lot of times she wasn’t in the house; I can’t remember where she was particularly that night but there were times when she wasn’t home because she worked, she was a nurse, she would have night duty or she was taking night classes or showing her dog. I couldn’t say where she was exactly that night but I know she wasn’t there.
Garry: Tell me about the day, the circumstances that led up to it.
Katsaris: We’d eaten dinner, it was after dinner. He was in the living room and he’d been drinking. His pattern was that he’d come home, eat, turn on the TV and just sit there and drink. Usually fell asleep or passed out. I was in my room. He came in.
Garry: How were you dressed?
Katsaris: I had my pajamas on.
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m-5
Garry: You were ready to retire?
Katsaris: Yes.
Garry: You had your pajamas on. Do you know approximately what time it was.
Katsaris: About 11 o’clock.
Garry: Do you know the approximate month that this happened.
Katsaris: Let me think a minute. It was in the summertime. July or August.
Garry: What year?
Katsaris: If I could count back, I could tell you what year. ‘72.
Garry: When was the last time that he had fondled you or had anything to do with you in the sexual nature before that?
Katsaris: That was when I was living in the Bay Area. I’d say it was about when I was 16 or 17, maybe ‘70, ‘71.
Garry: In other words, it had been about 2 years before.
Katsaris: Two years, or a year and a half.
Garry: All right, so he came into your bedroom. Were you in bed at the time?
Katsaris: No. He forced me down on the bed.
Garry: Now I want you to give it to me in details, as much in detail as you can think about it.
Katsaris: I was standing in my room, he came in and grabbed me. He said something but I don’t remember what he said.
Garry: How was he dressed?
Katsaris: I think he just had pants on, he didn’t have a shirt on. He put his arms around me, and I tried to get away from him. He pushed me down on the bed, I did my best to get away from him. He was drunk but he was still strong, and he pushed me down. I just remember him being on top of me.
Garry: Who took your pajama pants off?
Katsaris: I had a nightgown on.
Garry: I thought you said you had pajamas on.
Katsaris: It was a nightgown.
Garry: And he penetrated you. How long did that last?
Katsaris: The actual penetration?
Garry: The actual intercourse. How long did that last?
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m-6
Katsaris: It seemed like it was forever to me. I don’t know.
Garry: Were you crying?
Katsaris: I wasn’t crying. I wanted to kill him. I wasn’t crying.
Garry: What was your reaction?
Katsaris: My reaction? Pure hatred. I wanted to kill him. I was trying to get away from him. I would have killed him if I had the chance.
Garry: After he got off of you?
Katsaris: After he got off of me? There was another room in the house and I just went and locked myself in the room. He never acted like, the next day, he never acted like he’d done anything.
Garry: He never said anything to you? Why not?
Katsaris: I don’t know why not.
Garry: Did he say anything to you when he was having intercourse with you?
Katsaris: He was cussing me out not to struggle so much.
Garry: How did he cuss you, do you recall?
Katsaris: No. You better not move, you’d better not get up, better fuck there.
Garry: Does he use language like that?
Katsaris: Oh yeah. He talks like that a lot.
Garry: Did you ever mention it to him the next day?
Katsaris: No.
Garry: Did he ever mention it?
Katsaris: No.
Garry: Do you believe that he knew what he was doing?
Katsaris: Yeah. He had had quite a lot to drink, but I don’t think he was that out of it.
Garry: Do you know if he was drinking wine or hard liquor?
Katsaris: I never liked drinking myself, I never paid that much attention to what he drank.
Garry: Did you remain in the house the day after? How long did you remain in the house?
Katsaris: I had a few weeks; I was going to be moving up to Eureka, so I stayed there, tried to stay away from the house as much as possible. I tried to avoid being at home when I knew Anne wouldn’t be at home.
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m-7
Garry: Was his girlfriend living there, shacking up?
Katsaris: Yeah. I just would come home when I knew she was there. I’d just stay with friends.
Garry: When was the first time that you mentioned to him that “you raped me, and had intercourse with me”?
Katsaris: I never mentioned it to him. I never talked to him about it. When I met him here in Guyana, we talked in terms of his molesting me. That was a term that was used but never anything specific.
Garry: When was the first time that you ever mentioned to him that he had molested you?
Katsaris: I never talked to him about it. The way I am now and the way I was then is like 2 completely different people. If I was then like I feel now, I certainly would have said something. But the whole dynamics of the thing was different. I never talk to him about it.
Garry: I’m trying to find out when is the first time that you let him know that he had molested you, whether it was in Guyana or anyplace.
Katsaris: When he came down here to Guyana. It was when I met him in Georgetown with Ambassador Lawrence Mann, Richard McCoy was Consul from the Embassy with me, and attorney Edwin Luckoo [Luckhoo], Lionel Luckoo’s nephew. And when was the only person present. Ambassador Mann had not come into the room.
Garry: Why was Luckoo there?
Katsaris: Why was he there? Because I didn’t want to meet him by myself and I wanted to have an impartial third person there, and I knew–
Garry: We need an affidavit from Luckoo–
Katsaris: I asked Luckoo because I wanted somebody impartial. I didn’t want to talk to him by myself, and I didn’t think it would be appropriate to have anybody from the Temple go there.
Garry: Was that the first time you ever met with Luckoo?
Katsaris: Yeah. It was Sunday morning. I went to his house before I went over to the Ambassador’s house where the meeting was set for. I explained the situation and why I wanted him to come. I explained to him about my dad wanted to see me, and that he molested me, and he was a very sick person, and I didn’t want to talk to him myself because I didn’t trust what he would say. I wanted him there. He agreed to it. It was already set up, but he’d never met me. I introduced myself and explained exactly why I was asking him.
Garry: Did he ask any questions about the molestation?
vNot really, not like you’re asking me. I told him that my father had molested me, that I didn’t want to see him.
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m-8
Garry: Did he ask what you meant by molestation?
Katsaris: No. He never asked me anything about it.
Garry: I want to digress a bit here. I have read letters that you have written to your father. They’re affectionate letters, they’re letters of endearment. Why were you writing letters like that, and why didn’t you tell him you didn’t want him to come here?
Katsaris: The only reason I ever wrote any letters or even talked to him was because ever since I’d been in the church they’d said be friendly to him… It was easy to put down on paper if that would keep them there and keep him happy.
Garry: You knew he was coming down.
Katsaris: Not when… I have carbon copies of every letter that I wrote him. I told him that if he didn’t quit it, that was it.
Garry: Tell me about some of those other letters.
Katsaris: I’ve got to go get them because I can’t remember them.
Garry: Are they more pointed?
Katsaris: Do they say he molested– no.
Garry: I know, but are there any of them in there that doesn’t show that you’re the loving daughter.
Katsaris: Yeah. Those are letters that have never been printed anywhere.
Garry: How soon after you wrote the last letter did he come down?
Katsaris: I think there was one letter in the mail, I don’t know, it was so short of time till he came down I’m not even sure if he received it. It was like that same week or 2 weeks before that.
Garry: Why didn’t you want him to come down?
Katsaris: Why? Well, one, I hated his fucking guts, two, I thought he was up to no good, and I didn’t see any good, I didn’t think he was up to any good coming down here. He hates the church and he hates Jim.
Garry: Why didn’t you write him and say you didn’t want anything to do with him?
Katsaris: Because I thought he’d start shit for the Temple. I thought he’d take it out on the Temple. I thought he’d bring a bunch of shit against Peoples Temple. Ever since I’d joined, he’d been very threatened and very hostile about the fact that I was part of the organization. Tim Stoen had told me to be nice to him, to placate him, to still be the real loving daughter to him. Tim used to tell me shit, what a prick my dad was, keep him happy, he’s a bastard, if I didn’t keep him happy he
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m-9
Katsaris (cont.): –might spread a bunch of shit for the church.
Garry: He said your father was a prick.
Katsaris: Tim? Yeah.
Garry: When is the first time– so Luckoo went with you to the Embassy.
Katsaris: It wasn’t to the Embassy, it was where Ambassador Mann–
Garry: All right, when you got there, who was there?
Katsaris: Lawrence Mann was there and my dad was there. They were in the living room talking, and Paula Adams came from another apartment house. Carolyn Layton came with me too, I asked her to go with me. They weren’t involved in any of the discussions.
Garry: And Luckoo was with you.
Katsaris: Yeah.
Garry: Now tell me what was said, how close you were to your father, what your father said to you, the entire scenario.
Katsaris: Carolyn and Luckoo and I walked in. Sitting on the couch were Ambassador Mann and my dad. My dad came up and hugged me and kissed me and shit. I didn’t respond to him in any way. We walked out on the balcony, just my father, myself, and Luckoo. Ambassador Mann was in another part of the house, I think. Carolyn and Paula went in the kitchen or the dining room and had coffee. I said hi Paula, and he said, this is the Paula Adams who assassinated my character? I had asked Paula to take a tape into Richard McCoy saying I didn’t want to see my father, he molested me. She played that tape. There was no way for me to get to Georgetown and my father was putting pressure on me, wanted to come down and see me. And there was no time for a letter because mail is very unreliable between Georgetown, and I couldn’t get out because of the plane situation. I asked Paula to turn on the tape recorder at the other end of the radio, and I said this is Maria Katsaris, blah blah blah. I don’t want to see my father. I said he molested me. I asked Paula to take the tape into McCoy and play it for him. And so apparently McCoy I told my dad that Paula Adams came in and said he was a child molester. All Paula did was go in and play this tape of myself.
Garry: This was before your father came down.
Katsaris: Right. So McCoy it seems went back to my father and said that Paula and come in and said he was a child molester and I didn’t want to see him for that reason. So anyway when I said hi to Paula at the house at this meeting, he said is this the Paula Adams who’s assassinated my character, and I didn’t respond to it. He was very tense, very agitated, in fact he had developed a tic in his eye and his eye twitched the whole time, not continuously, but quite often. He asked me why I told people he molested me. I said I didn’t want to talk about it. He had a list of people that he had talked to, who were former members who had left. He told me he talked
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m-10
Katsaris (cont.): –to Mazor. I think I mentioned the part about Mazor first, I asked him why he was talking to Mazor.
Garry: How did you know that he’d talked to Mazor?
Katsaris: I think he told me. I’m trying to think.
Garry: Well, that’s what I’m trying to figure out.
Katsaris: I think, I’m not positive, I think on a phone patch he had told me that he talked to Mazor. I don’t even remember.
Garry: You had a phone patch with him before he came down.
Carolyn Layton: There was a long phone call in Georgetown, and there might have been a call later. I was in on the long phone call.
Katsaris: Yeah, that was when he was, I mean I called– I was trying to postpone him coming. He didn’t have definite plans for coming, and he was still friendly. The phone patch was here on this radio. He said he was coming, and I asked him to wait a while. There were 2 phone patches. I told him I would not be here. I told him I was going to Venezuela and if he came I would not be here. I asked him to postpone it. I made up this fib that I was going with my fiancé, which I did not have but I made it up thinking it would get him off my back. I told him I would not be here. He came down anyway. As it turned out, I had canceled my plans for Venezuela. I never did go at that time. He came down here anyway after I told him I would not be here so he didn’t know if I was gone or not. I did not see him them. So he came down a second time.
Garry: Did he say he had been talking to Mazor?
Katsaris: Well, I’m trying to think about how I found out. I think it was on a phone patch. I’m trying to think if we found that out on our own information. I can’t remember if he told me on a phone patch or if we found out.
Garry: What I’m trying to find out, is after you knew that he’d been working with Mazor, what was the façade in trying to be nice to him?
Katsaris: I wasn’t too nice after that. I told him, you know–
Garry: Well, you wrote him a letter after that, didn’t you?
Katsaris: I’ll have to look at my notes and see the date on it. Yeah, I did write letters after that.
Garry: Were they friendly letters, loving letters?
Katsaris: They weren’t as friendly like the first ones that you’ve seen, no. They weren’t outright hostile.
Garry: Did any of your letters say I don’t want a goddamn thing to do with you?
Katsaris: No, not like that.
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m-11
Harriet Tropp: I thought Buddy [Bunny] Mann told him.
Katsaris: I think you’re right. Buddy Mann. You see, he talked to a whole list of people. He talked to Grace [Stoen], Liz Foreman, Neva Sly– everybody who is not now in the conspiracy. He had it written down on a piece of paper. I tried to get the piece of paper from him but he stuck it back in his pocket. This was at the meeting with Luckoo.
Garry: How long did that meeting last?
Katsaris: About an hour and a half.
Garry: And who was present at the actual meeting?
Katsaris: Okay, at the first hour, it was Luckoo, myself and him and then McCoy, Dick McCoy came in, when McCoy came and Lawrence Mann came in, the conversation started off on a personal thing with me and not against the project, and then Luckoo had to leave. When he was gone, it was just McCoy, Mann and me, and then Carolyn came in towards the end, and he started getting all, the conversation went back on the church again.
Garry: In this hour and a half, Maria, did you tell him, did you reiterate the fact that he had molested you?
Katsaris: Yeah, he said why did you tell people that I molested you, I said because you did and I don’t really feel like talking about it.
Garry: And that’s the first time that you yourself directly told him that.
Katsaris: Yeah.
Garry: What’s the approximate date of that?
Katsaris: November 13, 1977. I can look on the calendar; it was on a Sunday, whatever that week was.
Garry: What did he say when you said, because you did molest me?
Katsaris: I remember his eye started twitching.
Garry: Is that his left eye?
Katsaris: Yeah. He said, why would you tell people like that. He repeated it. I said I don’t want to talk to you about it. And I don’t think you really want to get into it.
Garry: Did he ever deny it?
Katsaris: He didn’t deny it, he didn’t confirm it.
Garry: What did he say when you left?
Katsaris: He hugged me and he said I should always know that he loved me and if I wanted to come back, I had a family waiting for me. If I wanted fare back, he had the fare.
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m-12
Garry: This was when he left.
Katsaris: Yeah, when he left the meeting.
Garry: Was he infuriated that you would to his face accuse him of molesting you?
Katsaris: He wasn’t outraged or pissed or anything, I mean, he’s a sicko, his eye twitched, he was agitated. He was very tense. He wasn’t outwardly outraged. He tried crying and manipulating.
Garry: He tried to get on your sympathy.
Katsaris: Yeah.
Garry: When is the first time, Maria, that you told anybody about your father’s conduct towards you sexually?
Katsaris: It was shortly after I was going to the Temple, and I think Tim Stoen was the person I told first.
Garry: Tell me your relationship and how you first got to know Tim Stoen.
Katsaris: Tim was one of the first people I met in the church. He came on very friendly, very warm, and he knew my dad, I guess, in the community, and he also came to meetings in Redwood Valley, and Tim came there. The Temple gave $. I think he made a few small donations too.
Garry: So how did you happen to tell Tim?
Katsaris: The situation was that he was very threatened about my coming to meetings, and becoming more increasingly involved, and I talked to Tim because I thought there would be some problem. Tim agreed with me.
Garry: I want to know a little bit more about how you got to Tim, not only to talk about it with him, but sex is something you have been very reticent to talk about it.
Katsaris: I didn’t go into details about, I carried it as far as to say he molested me, didn’t give him any details.
Garry: Did he ask you, did he say he was surprised at it, what did he say?
Katsaris: He confirmed that he’d be the type that nobody would ever suspect, he was the type nobody would ever suspect to be a child molester. I said I didn’t like him, I wanted to get away from him. I told him that he’d molested me and I did not say he had actual sexual intercourse what it was, and at that time Tim said something like he’s just that evil type of person and he’s also the last person anybody would suspect of being a child molester. He told me I should be friendly to him and try to keep him placated, go see him, visit him, and Tim used to get mad when I wouldn’t go over and see him. Tim used to get mad because I didn’t like to go over to his house. This was already after I was in the Temple. I lived with some friends in the Temple.
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m-13
Katsaris (cont.): –Tim said I should go over there like weekly, couple three times a week and visit him. When there will be times that I would never go over there, Tim would get mad and tell me I better go over there before my dad got sick and started some shit.
Garry: How would he know that you didn’t go over and see him?
Katsaris: He’d ask me.
Garry: How often did you see Tim during this period of time?
Katsaris: I saw Tim regularly, at meetings, during the week, quite frequently.
Garry: What was Tim’s role in the church?
Katsaris: He was the attorney, and I went to him for advice. He was like somebody in the Temple that I would talk to about the problems of my dad and how to handle my dad.
Garry: When was the last time that you talked to him about your father?
Katsaris: In San Francisco, before he came down here.
Garry: He came down here in February of 1977. Do you remember Jim Jones’ Testimonial– was it after that? And before he came to Guyana, while he was still in the District Attorney’s office?
Katsaris: Yeah. It was– around that time to there was this Moonie shit going on, my dad would be the type who would try conservatorship on me. Tim had warned me about that.
Garry: What advice, if any, did Tim Stoen give you between the time of the Jim Jones Testimonial in the time that he left for Guyana in February 1977?
Katsaris: I didn’t talk to Tim as much in that time because– I remember talking to him about the conservatorship thing, that my dad would be the type to do it, and he said keep on a friendly basis with him, just be very careful with him. That would be basically it.
Garry: How soon before he left for Guyana did he mention the fact be nice to him or whatever?
Katsaris: You were asking about what month?
Garry: No, I’ve already placed it between the Testimonial and when he went to Guyana. You know he went to Guyana for about 6 or 7 weeks. During that period of time did you talk to him at all?
Katsaris: Did I talk to him while he was in Guyana?
Garry: No– between the time of Jim’s Testimonial and when he went to Guyana.
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m-14
Garry (cont.): Was there any discussions, any talking, any reference at all that he talked about your father?
Katsaris: There was a phone conversation where he asked me how my dad was doing, when was the last time I saw him, that I should continue seeing him, and he again reiterated that he’d be the type of person to do conservatorship on me.
Garry: When was the meeting in Georgetown?
SIDE 2
Eugene Chaikin: That meeting took place, April 27 – May 1, 1977. Those are the entry and exit stamps on my passport.
Garry: I’m interested in Stoen. After he came back from Guyana, did you see him in San Francisco, did you talk to him in San Francisco?
Katsaris: I don’t remember, I honestly don’t remember.
Garry: The meeting in Georgetown was at the old address, right? Some 60 hours–
Katsaris: The new address.
Garry: This was after Tim Stoen had run to England and Mike [Prokes] and Sandy [Bradshaw] had gone down to fetch him. Did he come back to San Francisco after that?
Tropp: The meeting took place after that.
Garry: Did he come back to San Francisco after that?
Chaikin: Eventually.
Garry: Which is, yes or no?
Marceline Jones: After they were all gone and I was still there, he left.
Garry: Did he come to the Temple?
Marceline Jones: No, he didn’t come to the Temple, but just before the news broke, a phone call came and someone said that it came from Tim.
Tropp: He did not come to the Temple.
Garry: So there’s no way in the world that he could have met with– Did you come here with the youngster [John Victor Stoen]?
Katsaris: Yes, I came with John. I stayed about a week and then I left.
Garry: What happened to John?
Katsaris: He stayed here with Joyce Touchette.
Garry: Between October 1976 and June 1977, you were in the US.
Katsaris: Right.
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m-15
Garry: Now when you got here on June 16 or 17, was Tim Stoen here?
Katsaris: No.
JJ [Jim Jones]: He chartered out. Even the Guyanese government didn’t know how he left. He had to leave secretly, pay a price to a charter plane because he didn’t leave through any natural commercial routes. He left by charter some way, without approval of the government. They had no listing of him.
Marceline Jones: He left a message at the Tower Hotel for me.
Garry: As a result of the meeting in April, how was the information transmitted to Maria?
Katsaris: By radio.
Tropp: What happened was, we decided at the meeting– there was a radio in Georgetown and one in Jonestown.
Katsaris: I talked to Tim, I was on the radio in San Francisco, Tim was on the radio in Jonestown.
Garry: You came here to Jonestown on May 16, 1977. Is that correct? But before you came here, did you have any communication between the end of April 1977 and May 16 before you came to Jonestown, Guyana, with Tim Stoen?
Katsaris: Not other than when I talked to him on the radio.
Garry: From the end of April, which is the meeting which took place with the lawyers and the legal community and so forth, and before you got here on June 16, 1977, did you have any communications with Tim Stoen?
Katsaris: Yes, I talked to him on the radio.
Garry: Give us the conversation that you best recall.
Katsaris: Well, over several days, he would be the person speaking on this end of the radio and I would be at the other end of the radio. I also got the message at that time that I was to stay in the building as much as I could, have other people go out and do my business for me. That I should stay in the building, that if I had to go out and do anything for the church, I should get somebody and let them do it, that I was in danger of being set up or he might try kidnapping and conservatorship on me. I found a note of his – he did say on the radio too – he said I would be safer to come down to Guyana, there will be no danger of my dad.
Garry: Had he told you that before?
Katsaris: Yeah.
Garry: Did he ever put that in writing?
Katsaris: When he left I had found a note of a group of people that he thought should come to Guyana, it was an old note and my name was among it.
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m-16
Side 2 of tape, of 94/95
Maria is again talking about phone call with Steve Katsaris
Jim Jones: She was in Caracas, Venezuela, there alone.
Katsaris: He started going into that whole big lie stuff. I told him I took a lie detector test.
Garry: That’s how he knew you took the lie detector test.
Katsaris: I told him he had until 48 hours to call my friends in San Francisco, and drop it, have reconciliation– if he did not drop it, I would have nothing more to do with him.
Garry: What did he say?
Katsaris: He said, now Maria, (illegible [likely, unintelligible])
Jim Jones: But he immediately tried to get to her. He called our San Francisco station, and he couldn’t get her, cause she was way over in Caracas. He called twice to the San Francisco station.