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Harriet [Tropp] – Check these please
Could various people check these & get them in final form before you send it in
Sharon [Amos]
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[Handwritten note at top of page: “Please return to Dick Tropp for polish up & whatever]
To: Carolyn Layton
Here are the segments of the Mazor tapes (from Sharon) that I have excerpted for a presentation. The presentation should perhaps begin with a short background statement on who Joseph Mazor is, and the events leading up to and surrounding his visit to Jonestown, as well as the extent of his involvement in the anti-Temple activities.
Statements from Mr. Mazor at Jonestown (give date) in conversations with Cde. Jim Jones and staff members of the Peoples Temple Community:
[Handwritten parenthetical remark: “You may want to omit, change order, etc. – give suggestions”]
1. We were interested in anything we could find. We wanted to make sure you weren’t buying arms from a military armory – stolen ones, so we opened all your (shipping) crates in customs, everything, and looked closely… Nothing was found.
2. When the group was out there (during the period of six days when the community was shot at and under a state of siege – perhaps a short background statement should preface this). It was for harassment. Why wait for six days to destroy (the Peoples Temple community) if it could be done in one? If we (the harassment) was done just to keep people from work. If (the mercenary group) didn’t do you in right away, then we didn’t intend to do so. When we came in we had every intention of doing you in in one hour. They’d say, “let’s do them in and get out of here.” Or they’d say, “let’s sit out here and harass them.” (Peoples Temple member asks: what purpose would it serve to harass us?) Well, how long did it take you to unwind, as a group? It took weeks.
3. If they (the mercenary group) have been out to get you, they would have shot at you, not over your heads. The couple of times they misjudged their distance, and come too close to you, were mistakes. They had more fun with you (malicious harassment).
4. (Concerning the plans of the Mazor-led group of mercenaries): Here is a woman saying, “I want to get my child back.” And this is my business, getting kids back. I said: we’ve already been down there, we’ve already looked around … and the only way you are going to get your kid back is to hire a professional to go down there… (Concerning the mercenary group that went down) We got out there and looked around and there were no barbed wire fences, we didn’t see any gun towers (as they have been told were there in sworn statements).
5. (On protection from armed attacks from outside Guyana by Guyanese military forces): The army is not prepared to do this.
6. (Details of the Venezuela Airlift – a mercenary operation in September, 1977, orchestrated by Mazor). We had some big-time help. Let me tell you how big the operation was. Had there been a problem when we got down there, we had a Boeing 727 standing by to evacuate all the children. We had one of the biggest people in the airway business backing us with the 727: all the fuel, the pilot, the whole group, the whole bit… I personally got this together… I went to him and said, I need an airplane on stand-by… and he came up with a 727. We would have landed right at the Georgetown airport… We had rocket launchers. We would have taken the whole radio station down, we would have had the place down in five minutes. We would have been in and out of there. And at the
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same time we made preparations in case you got to remember you got people back there (members of the Temple) making testimony and their testimony is interesting, armed guards (he is referring to Temple personnel who might escape from the scene of the operation and return to the United States), anybody you find out there these days, shoot them (referring to their plans to shoot Temple armed guards who might escape to give testimony???).
I gave him (Ed Bailey of world airways, who was helping in the operation) the affidavits of people who said the Agricultural Project was an armed camp with little children running around, and I said, “Ed, if I get stuck I will need help.” He said, “fine, let me see what I can do.” He called me back in a few days and told me he had a 727 standing by with a crew, and “where do you want me to land the damn thing?” I said, “if we call you, I want you to land in Georgetown.” He said, “okay, that’s super, we’ll do it, it’s all yours.” So we took off (for Guyana) with the knowledge that all we need do was contact Ed Bailey and we would have the 727 down here for the children (that they would round up in the operation).
And instead, we ended up out there (in the jungle surrounding the Agricultural project), we took a look, and said we didn’t see anything (no armed camp, etc.), made a phone call, and said “forget it.” We were tricked, we didn’t see any gun towers, we didn’t see any barbed wire, there wasn’t any… nobody got tripped over and fists run through their teeth, there were no bamboo tiers (reference uncertain).
7. (Details of military plan of attack on the Agricultural Mission)
We had Ed Bailey with a big plane standing by (the 727), we had a good team coming in, we came in with all the weaponry we needed, we came in with rocket launchers, we could have put the radio station out with the first shot, the generator with a second shot, we would have been in here (the Project site), we would have the adults on one side and the children separated, and we would have been out of here in a matter of thirty minutes… I had the best guys money could buy, they knew the whole area. They are ex-poachers. They are the best guys in the world. You get ex-poachers and you got it made. We had no problems, but Jesus Christ… you had nothing going on (no armed camp, gun towers, armed guards on patrol, etc.), we could have walked in in the middle of the night and peed (urinated) all over your vegetables and you would have never known the difference. We took one look at that (seeing that the community was peaceful, not an armed camp at all) and said, “hey, let’s get out of here. This is ridiculous.” If we had found barbed wire (evidence of a prison, as alleged in the affidavits presented to Mazor) we would have just come in and taken the kids. The affidavits that we had was that you people (the Peoples Temple) had an armed camp and people couldn’t leave, and there were young children down here (in captivity).
P.S. Carolyn, I can write the background introduction, though I am not sure of all the details. I also submitted to dad [the] suggestion that this material will make a very explosive press story that will damage conspiracy and discredit them even more, and bring sympathy to our side. I don’t know just why we have not pushed ahead with this, unless there is some valid legal reasons.
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Tape: “Snake oil to the natives”
M [Joe Mazor]: We had some parents try and hire us to come down here. We had some parents who wanted to try and do the Moonie thing.
Tape: “The Guyana Authorities cannot protect you” Side B:
M: The Guyana authorities cannot protect you people, okay. Right out front, they can’t do it. They have a hard enough time protecting themselves. The Guyana Police Department is a non-existent authority, they really are. They’re understaffed and undertrained, they could not, in all fairness to them, they could not in good conscience… (Unclear: something about security JJ in G/T [Georgetown]).
(In Reference to the Surinam Border dispute:)
That’s a different story, that’s a different set of rules, that’s a set of rules for combat, that’s what they’re trained for. You’re talking about two different things, you’re talking about a bunch of guys who are trained to be soldiers going around and securing their territory versus a very quiet situation of moving someone from one point to another. Security is not drawing attention to what you are doing. The army is not prepared to do this – they are prepared to defend you and defend your area – they’re not prepared to protect you in the way you are talking about. Those (one shot shotguns) they use are not worth a darn and that’s what bothers me a little bit, I’d feel better if you had better protection than that. I suggest one thing, that you might do if you feel you’re going to have to move, you’ll have to travel, that is, you make arrangements with your friends in the government to permit your security people for weapons… to have them ready so you’ll have them when you need them… (Unclear – a discussion on different types of weapons – I am not familiar with calibers of guns – I think he said his people only use 9 something guns???)
SIDE A: THE GUYANA AUTHORITIES CANNOT PROTECT YOU
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SIDE A: THE GUYANA AUTHORITIES CANNOT PROTECT YOU
Five years from now if I were to write an assment [assessment] I would say in my assment that I would be leery of People’s Temple about the temple as to which political impact upon the Government because of its economic road throughout those 5 years. Now on that basis that means the agency will let you alone. Until two years from now when they would come back to reassess you to determine if there have been any change and if there hasn’t 3 ½ years from now you would be totally implicated…
SIDE A: VENEZUELA AIRLIFT
VERY UNCLEAR… A discussion of the children that were a source of controversy. Vincent Lopez, Petit children, John John [John Victor Stoen] etc. He said he took five men in a helicopter … unclear … and that cost money … (here is a woman saying, “I want to get my child back,” and this is my business getting kids back. I said hey, we’ve already been down there, we’ve already looked around, we already know from the photographs that there [they are] 80 miles from God’s creation in the middle of the jungle and she’s saying I want to get my kid back and I’m saying we’ve already looked at the Guyana way. There’s only one way your [you’re] going to get your kid back, hire a professional and go down and try and get the kid. We got out there and looked around and we did our little look and there were no barb wire fences, we didn’t see any gun towers. I think you had six buildings here at about 12 acres of land cleared, but you didn’t have anything going down here. In fact , it looked like a rat hole, it looked like a rat hole. We looked around and said, crap, let’s get out of here. And we left. I’m not going to send a bunch of men down here and spend a salary every day to find out if you got a wire fence, you don’t have no wire fence.
SIDE B: VENEZUELA AIRLIFT
We had some big time help. Let me tell you how big the operation was
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SIDE B: VENEZUELA AIRLIFT
We had some big time help. Let me tell you how big the operation was, to give you some idea how big the operation was. Had there been a problem when we got down here, we had a 727 standing by to evacuate all the children. We had one of the biggest people in the airway business backing us with a 727, all the fuel, the pilot, the whole crew, the whole bit. I personally got this together. I went to him and said, I need an airplane on standby… and he came up with a 727. We would have landed it right at the G/town airport. Here I am in S. America let’s say hypothetically, I came down here with barb wire fences, gun towers and a thousand kids inside, you say to yourself okay now where do I go? Go back to the US and start over again? Or do you make your arrangements ahead of time? We had rocket launchers we would have taken the whole radio station down, we would have had the place down in 5 minutes we would have been in and out of here. And at the same time we made preparations in case, you got to remember you got people back there making testimony and their testimony is interesting, armed guards… (Reference to people wandering around the property) anybody find out there these days, shoot them. You know Ed Bailey, World Airways, I told Ed the story, I gave him the affidavits of the people who said this was an armed camp with little children running around and I said Ed if I get stuck I need help. He said fine, let me see what I can do. He called me back a few days later and told me he had a 727 standing by with a crew, where do you want me to land the damn thing? I said if we call you I want you to land in G/town. He said, okay that’s super, we’ll do it, it’s all yours. We took off with the knowledge that all we needed to do was contact Ed Bailey and we’d have a 727 down here for the children. And instead we ended up out there, we took a look, said we didn’t see anything, made a phone call and said forget it. We were tricked, we didn’t see any gun towers we didn’t see any barb wire, there wasn’t any… nobody got tripped over and \fist run through their teeth, there were no bamboo teirs (?). What the hell, using I’m going to spend $2000.00 a day for 5 guys sitting out here in the bush playing pennacle [pinochle]. I had the best guys money could buy, they knew the whole area. There ex-poachers, there [they’re] the best guys in the world, you get ex-poachers and you got it made. We had no problem, but Jesus Christ, you had 5 or six buildings standing, you have nothing going on, we could have walked in in the middle of the night and peed all over your vegetables and you would never have known the difference. We took one look at that and said, hey let’s get out of here, this is ridiculous. If we had found barbed wire, we would have just come in and taken the kids. The affidavits that we had was that you people had an armed camp and people couldn’t leave, and there were young children down here. And we’re saying if there is this type of thing so we had
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Ed Bailey with a big plane standing by, we had a good team coming in, we came in with all the weaponry we needed, we came in with rocket launchers, we could put the radio station out with that shot, you would have had the radio station out with the first shot, the generator with the second shot, we would have been in here, we have the adults on one side and the children separated and we would have been out of here, in a matter of 30 minutes. After we got back to the US I started walking the halls of the State Dept. until somebody coughed up a list, because we were getting calls and calls every day. My daughter is missing, her name is Susie Smith. Well how the hell do I know whether my son’s in the PT in Guyana, I got even know what the count is. So I finally got everyone together and got a list from immigration of every person who had come into the country and then it was a very simple matter of going down the list
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SJ 4 SIDE A CONTINUED
When the group was out there, it was for harassment, why wait for 6 days to destroy if you could do it in one? It was just to keep people from work, if they didn’t do you in right away, then they didn’t intend to do you in.
When we came in, we had every intention of doing you in in one hour, we had it set up that we would do it in one hour. Nobody who came in here would expect the barricade. They say let’s do them in and get out of here, or they say let’s sit out here and harass them. Obviously they knew that somebody was in the radio room and that was communication with the outside world, they were afraid they would get caught. (“What purpose would it serve to harass us?”) M [Mazor]: well, how long did it take you to unwind as a group? It took weeks, and then for the next 3 months, you were walking around with your head upside down.
For security, get 2-3 people out every few days, it did a lot of good, I saw them up and down the woods, and up front and in the back, it’s not a big deal. Some person could be out there for 2 months and nobody would know they’re even there. Were all oriented to think everyone sees far more than they see.
SJ 4 SIDE B “LAST TAPE”
What weapons did we have? Cutlass, no good with distance of 500 yards. Bow and arrow? We have plenty, but they don’t work in jungle.
When they got on radio, called out “Heil, Hitler”, psychological
If they had been out to get you, they would have shot at you, not over your heads. The couple of times they misjudged their distance, and came too close to you, were mistakes. They had more fun with you.
Jim: We came through more sensitive. The government and counsel were unfriendly as hell, we thought we were goners, when the government came back, they were friendly again.
INAUDIBLE
Sounds to me we were taking accounting of you, situation at time was warranted
Jim: A small group in Guyana didn’t want us here, the Moscow-oriented party, PNC is nonaligned, PM Burnham likes us. We don’t like the apanjat of the PPP.
M: To be perfectly honest, I’ve looked at the State Department file, I’ve seen it and there is nothing in the file about it, nothing from the US counsel. US counsel is right next to Soviet counsel. What they don’t discuss in offices, they discuss on front porches, that’s the name of the game. Everybody knows everybody’s business. People here in Embassy are the same as anywhere else, everybody knows, the US and USSR phones are tapped, not just conspiracy against one government, all are tapped, the same as in the US and there is nothing about any activity of any group against you in the file. Somebody would have said something to somebody about it. Somebody would have said something.
Jim: It could have been a radical group.
M: If so, all the more reason not to hurt anyone, no where to go if heavy violence. They knew, if any were killed, no one wanted violence then, can’t see that the Americans would want to do it.
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ROUGH TRANSCRIPTION OF MAZOR TAPES
SJ1 PEARLCORDER S SIDE A
Investigation of properties, values in RWV [Redwood Valley] etc.
When DA’s was first contacted, it wasn’t all upset until the threats came in…
Andre, who stayed with the Mertles, they wouldn’t let him go to school, and they talk about abuse of children.
Mazor: They’re accusing you of all kinds of stuff
Mazor:… Then you have the 20% crackpots, who read about PT in the papers, take actions of their own, don’t know shit about PT, like the guy who went up in the Texas U. tower and shot people, these are the most dangerous. Professional killers, you wouldn’t have to worry about. The radical groups only operate within a few hundred. It is the 20% that are the dangerous to PT and to all in the world.
SJ2 SIDE B
357 Magnum meet him at…
What are your work hours? (Not always day off on Sundays) You volunteer?
You’ll have to develop security precautions, everyone on premises. I don’t know how many of you guys were in military, say, take 5 guys and that could be good security _____ training. They would rove for 2 weeks.
A lot of things being investigated were done by your conspirators, all health department investigations, like Walter Jones’ complaint.
Before you find out what conspiracy is about, see what the negative stuff we had, we were interested in anything we could find. When we heard a charge that you were getting armed, we wanted to make sure that you weren’t buying arms from a military armory – stolen ones, so we opened all your crates in Customs, everything, and we look closely. In the long run, did you a favor because it cleared you of a messy rap, because nothing was found. It would have been nasty if they hadn’t been checked and then they would have come here to find out, and investigated. As it was it stopped a nasty investigation, sorry about the damaged stuff, but it was necessary, you see, otherwise the government would have been very involved and then the Guyanese government would have been alienated because of the US closer involvement, so you are better off in the long run.
“DIVERSION” TAPE, SIDE A PEARLCORDER S (Side B was blank)
Melvina Green told us about the lady in the nursery home, woman had a son somewhere in Texas. Melvina put her in a convalescent hospital, woman wasn’t taking care of, had decupidi, Melvina told Jack, who made arrangements for her to come to SF, live in church, with 24 hour RN care. Question was about property sold, with $20,000 going to PT. (Jim said that PT paid out more than that in her care, and attention given to her, Marci [Marceline Jones] to follow-up while in US, to bring her over to spend her last years here. Mazor asked who prepared dee? TOS [Timothy Stoen]? [Charles] Garry said he was pissed off because stuff comes under investigation, and then he hears about it from PT, Jim said he had given instructions that Garry be given all the information.
SJ 4 SIDE A
Something about aerial photography, you wouldn’t get a problem from me – Mazor – All I saw was a group who built a community in the jungle. Obviously you made $30,000 honestly at some point. M: Get licensed for 5 weapons, for “protective security”, 5 regularly licensed, the rest volunteers.
[Jim] Cobb would have sisters get on knees, and have them say, “I am a white bitch”
Once you’re licensed, we’ll get equipment, go through your contact at Ministry of Info, within a matter of 30 days, I don’t know who you’ll train, but at least get started, get some of the problem resolved and then you can build more homes, the first step is to get somebody out there.
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[Variation on previous page, slightly more informal]
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Once you’re licensed, we’ll get equipment, go through your contact at the Ministry, and within a matter of 30 days, I don’t know who you’ll train, but at least get started, get some of the problem resolved and then you can build more homes, the first step is to get somebody out there. (for security roming)
Mazor: When the group was out there (during the period of 6 days when we were shot out) it was for harassment, why wait for 6 days to destroy if you could do it in one? It was just to keep people from work. If they didn’t do you in right away, then they didn’t intend to do so. When we came in, we had every intention of doing you in in one hour. We had it set up so that we could do it in one hour. No one who came in here would expect the barricade. They’d say “let’s do them in and get out of here,” or that say “let’s sit out here and harass them.” Obviously they knew that somebody was in the radio room and that there was communication with the outside world. They were afraid that they would get caught.
PT: What purpose would it serve to harass us?
Mazor: Well how long did it take you to unwind? As a group? It took weeks, and then for the next 3 months, you were walking around with your heads upside down. For security, 2-3 persons out every few days. It did a lot of good. I saw them up and down the woods, and up front and in the back. It’s not a big deal. Some person could be out there in the jungle and no one would know that they’re even there. Were all oriented to think that everyone sees far more than they see.
PT: What weapons do we have? Cutlass, no good with a distance of 500 yards. Bow and arrows. We have plenty of those but they don’t work well in the jungle.
Mazor: When they get on the radio and called out “Heil Hitler” that was for psychological harassment. If they had been out to get you, they would have shot at you, not over your heads. The couple of times, they misjudged their distance and came too close to you were mistakes. We have more fun with you.
JJ: We came through more sensitive. The government and consul were unfriendly as hell. We thought we were goners. When the government came back, they were friendly again.
Mazor: Sounds to me that they were taking an accounting of you. Situation at time was warranted.
JJ: A small group in Guyana didn’t want us here, the PPP. The PNC is nonaligned. The Prime Minister Burnham likes us. We don’t like the apanjat of the PPP.
Mazor: To be perfectly honest, I look at the State Department file. I’ve seen it and there is nothing in the file about it, nothing from the US Consul. US Consul is right next to the Soviet Consul. What they don’t discuss in offices, they discuss on front porches, that’s the name of the game. Everybody knows everybody’s business. People here in the Embassy are the same as anywhere else, everybody knows. The US and USSR phones are tapped, not just a conspiracy against one government, all are tapped, the same as in the US and there is nothing about any activity of any group against you in the file. Somebody would have said something to somebody about it. Somebody would have said something.
JJ: It could have been a radical group.
Mazor: If so, all the more reason not to hurt anyone, nowhere to go if heavy violence. They knew if any were killed… No one wanted violence then. Can’t see that the Americans would want to do that.