Q583 Transcript

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(This tape was transcribed by Nicole Bissett. The editors gratefully acknowledge her invaluable assistance.)

Mike Prokes: They uh– They said we now have Stephan’s [Stephan Jones] friend’s mother and her companion, and we now have their son and A.J. Johnson’s daughter with us. Uh, they spent some time among others and with others who are working with us, going out this afternoon with the list we were given last night. The interviews have been very favorable. People have been positive and responsive. If we’re going to expand the program with their consent, uh, obtain materials– Just reading from the transcript, uh– Let’s see– You know, notations to further authenticate the situation. We feel these materials can be used in a number of ways. First of all, they can be used by publication. Secondly, they can be used on the radio, if required. And thirdly, they can be used if the issue were handled more formally – if you follow me – and along lines that the office suggested in the last few paragraphs– paragraphs that we were given this morning. Now I’m suggesting is simply that you get this material and pass it on so it can be analyzed, so next time we talk, we can speak of it in detail. Uh– Let’s see –

Jones: Talkin’ ‘bout healings?

Prokes: Pardon?

Jones: Talkin’ ‘bout healings?

Prokes: Yeah.

Jones: All right. How–how are they doing that? They gonna send (unintelligible word) to us.

Prokes: Uh, well, I– I thought he was referring to u– utilization there.

Jones: I know, but uh, which (unintelligible word)– which ones talkin’ ‘bout, we’d like to see them more (too soft) analyze them (unintelligible word)–

Prokes: Uh-huh. Uh, I guess we’ve– I don’t know what he was thinking.

Jones: (unintelligible name) I talked to your teacher. I don’t know what the hell you mean by that stuff uh, between– all of you.

Prokes: Okay. Uh, says he that uh, we feel we’re going to have between thirty and forty fairly good testimonies available. And the question is how best we can use them. Uh, he says uh– (Pause) We have people saying, I don’t care what the newspaper says, I was there and I saw what happened, and they’re spreading the word about it, too. Uh– It almost looks like the thing is shaping up to take sides. These are just common people, but I think that with a sufficient workforce down here, we could put up a pretty strong showing. Uh– For example, we could decide– we– we could decide to run every night for five minutes or something on the radio. One testimony of a healing at that service, and run a different testimony every night. He’s just suggesting that.

Jones: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Prokes: Uh– Let’s see– That’s pretty much all. (Pause) One thing he did mention, uh– Said let me give you some information on a point that I brought out in the uh, notes that Maria [Katsaris] gave. Uh– The position I took is that people from our mission were, uh, called out and healed. But the issue was whether, when asked, ‘specially Mr. Johnson, they denied knowing you. The claim was that they publicly denied knowing you. And that is what I denied.

Jones: That’s right, that’s right.

Prokes: Okay. All right. (Long pause)

Jones: That’s right. (Pause}

Prokes: The information that uh– that you gave this afternoon, now, that was to go in the ad? It says if the newspaper doesn’t question us about it–

Jones: If the newspaper doesn’t question–

Prokes: Then it’s fine.

Jones: – the way– the way it is, the way things are, the way things are, you leave them that way. Then go into detail. But if the new– newspaper requires more detail, you give details. You know, like, uh, such as you were just discussing, that uh, (unintelligible, could be “no one”) was called out and healed. I didn’t want that in the– to go in the newspaper unless we had to.

Prokes: Well, it says put it in the ad. Makes sense.

Jones: If necessary, yes. (Pause) Same thing. (unintelligible word) If necessary. Only if necessary. Don’t pay to give nothin’ to nobody. But I– You weren’t there, so I– It’s the best I can do.

Prokes: (sighs) Okay.

Jones: (unintelligible sentence) Somebody ought to be assigned in these crucial times to be at hand with a tape-recorder for me, uh, to hook me up, like Maria uh, or uh– You know, Maria, Jean Brown, [Jim] Randolph, I don’t want Maria to do all of this. I don’t want her to know all of it. Somebody could uh– Somebody could (unintelligible word) that phone. Karen [Layton] or something like that. Somebody.

Prokes: Uh– Well, we have a month. Uh, I am covering the office, and Randolph and Jean Brown are in the other office.

Jones: Well, I know, but during this afternoon, there was nobody there. I had to talk to Maria.

Prokes: Oh, yeah. See.

Jones: (unintelligible word) little available. We got Joe Brown, and uh, Beam and uh–

Prokes: Oh, that’s right, that’s right. You’re right.

Jones: So, I’ve been trying ‘cause– Leave it. ‘Cause I was going out tonight. I had to– I had to leave it.

Prokes: (sighs) Okay. (Pause) Karen wants to know what she should do. (Pause) Uh, that is, she needs to know if she should have her clothes brought down.

Jones: She should. (unintelligible sentence)

Prokes: Uh – Jeff Carey’s dad wants to know where he is, wants his address. He’s at the Hilton in SF, and he called here. (Pause) He’s stay– He’s going to the University of Guam, I guess.

Jones: He tea– He teaches there. He’s formerly of the CIA, uh, we know about him, what about him. They haven’t told him where he’s at, I hope.

Prokes: No. Uh-uh. (Pause) Should we uh–

Jones: Say we’re on an agricultural mission to South America. We’ll have have him write uh– When he calls us, we’ll have him write. We don’t have the exact address now, but he’ll uh– (Pause) He’ll write. (Pause) Over the holidays, he went. (unintelligible sentence) Don’t say he’s been gone a long time or anything. Just say we’ll get– get his address, and we’ll have him write. We’ll have him write you. Doesn’t know it. Say the person didn’t– Whoever took the call, didn’t know– didn’t know him. So somebody else can get ahold of him, collect, and say that you’ll– (Pause) There was a work project over the holidays or something. (Pause) Okay.

Prokes: Yeah. Let’s see. I think that’s all I have.

Jones: Do you have anymore (stumbles over words) about– about 40 good healings. Are there any of the– (clears throat) Any other input uh, from the government or anything that doesn’t know where we’re at still?

Prokes: I don’t think so. I don’t think it– I think–

Jones: Who all was there and heard the call, the conversation?

Prokes: Uh– (Pause) Evidently, the ones that uh, that I mentioned, uh–

Jones: Well, now, who all was down there at your end and heard the conversation?

Prokes:  Oh, I see. (Pause) Uh, with Jean, uh, (Pause) – let’s see – Randolph. He would have been the only other one. He didn’t really hear it.

Jones: You the one that heard it?

Prokes: Yeah. (Pause) He– he heard it after the call.

Jones: But always have somebody monitoring these calls. ‘Cause I think that there’s one area we’re vague on there. I don’t know what– We– I– You know, I don’t know what they mean. That’s always what you try and do with people. Because it’s difficult for only one person to pick up on everything that comes across. (Pause)

Prokes: Yeah. (Pause) See, they were– now I figured it– that was around six – Yeah, they were at home. They could’ve been here. We should’ve had them here. (Pause) They’ll be calling again at nine tomorrow morning.

Jones: Well. How long did you talk? Not too long?

Prokes: No, not very long.

Jones: That’s good. Don’t make it too long.

Prokes: Okay.

Jones: But you better get somebody to analyze that thing tonight with you, the tape. Better let [Tim] Stoen hear it and get some ana– analysis on it, to know what the hell they’re talking about.

Prokes: Okay.

Jones: We can’t help them to analyze their healings uh, there, you know, we’re just not able to do it. We’ll have to leave it up to them or send somebody down, or whatever they want.  I don’t, uh– they– they seem to be calling (unintelligible word), I don’t know what they mean.

Prokes: Um, well, they– they– there’s– Uh, he’s speaking in terms of, you know, what we should do with these healings, like, or uh, you know, what– how– how we should uh, convey it over there. What– what means should we use. What of the three means that he suggest that–

Jones: Well, I think on the radio is a good idea, but I wouldn’t put– I’d tell him, I wouldn’t put an address– uh, uh, in the first. Don’t have to, (several unintelligible words) follow up, they gotta know exactly what they’re talking about. Just gotta know exactly with these healings what they’re talking about. (Pause) Somebody out of a wheelchair, they were in a wheelchair, and you got testimony they were in a wheelchair. Now, this is what I’m saying. (Pause) You know legally what he’s up to, but uh– I can get such-and-such a name– (Pause) such a name, they won’t make too much of (unintelligible word) addresses. (Pause) Once they get into that ballgame, you know, that they– people can just hound you to death. They can go to the people and– (unintelligible word) underestimate (several unintelligible words) ‘cause people stand up under pressure, if we’re under real attack over there. (Pause)

Prokes: Uh– uh–

Jones: And it should be made clear that I had not seen the man that– that then– that I called out in Mission (unintelligible word) I mean that I– that I did save the Sabbatarian minister who worked with us at the Mission. (Pause) And I wasn’t too familiar– really wasn’t too familiar, with what was wrong with his– with his knee. (Pause) We better come up with some June (unintelligible word) factor, and though– even though we don’t even recognize that woman. You got what I’m saying?

Prokes: Uh, no.

Jones: They are coming up with some June name over there, and we don’t even recognize that name.

Prokes: Oh, I see.

Jones: We don’t recognize–

Prokes: Jew– Jew name?

Jones: (Emphatic) June.

Prokes: June.

Jones: June. June, like June and July.

Prokes: Yeah.

Jones: My damndable hoarse voice. (Pause) Unless she’s already done so, then just say that she was (Pause) like you said, we better stick with A.J. [Archie Ijames] and one other they call. (Sighs) I don’t think there should be a lot of people from the Mission. (Pause) I think there’re only two people from the Mission healed. That’s all they should say. (Pause) Said even the people in the Mission don’t discuss what’s wrong with them, with the– the pastor. They just go by faith, they don’t– they been away, they’ve been separated from the pastor, they don’t– they don’t tell him why they’re ill or how they got ill. Very few have been ill over there. (Pause) You know what I’m saying?

Prokes: Yeah.

Jones: But there was no semblance of acting like he didn’t know them. I wouldn’t name any more than Ijames.

Prokes: In what regard.

Jones: And they got healed that we that were pestering the hell out of him. (Pause) ‘Cause that’s who I would name officially. I would say there were dozens called out at the door, and dozens– you know, do– just dozens, scores called out, and they healed at the doors. Healed in the audience. Called out, at the doors and in the audience. Never even met before by the pastor. Didn’t know them from Adam or Eve. (Pause) The newspaper’s not gonna change some people’s minds, and these lines that form? That’s fine, it’s fine, if we can uh– how much latitude we have to go with church, I wouldn’t have had to put all that humility in there about Christ, if they thought we had latitude. (Pause) All right– And once you admit you made mistakes, it’s hard, you know, on the co– comeback. (Pause) (several unintelligible words) forced to build a church that come up with this Christ-is-all business. (Whispers) My God. (Pause) We might just say that we were– that when our young people were told uh, that uh, we had uh– young people were told, (unintelligible word) were told, (short laugh), over that businessman, that minister, that uh, we were– we shouldn’t promote our own personal beliefs about Jesus Christ, our own personal beliefs about Christ, as personal savior, at first, so as to give members of other world religions who were, they thought, present in great numbers, timed to see our good work. That’s how the testimonies end up, the young people didn’t know what to say other than to mention the one that God had worked through, the bishop, and they give honor to whom honor was due. (Pause) Like the scripture says, to give honor to whom honor was due. They wanted to speak of Christ, and they were badly advised. The pastor wasn’t in the service to guide them. He never uses titles, and that’s good, (several unintelligible words), that but to say I was disturbed with the advertisement in the great go– in the extensive way that I did. They could say he– I didn’t like the advertisement, the the advertisement was again made up by people who were not members of our church. We don’t advertise in the States, and even in a newspaper that one of our church members owned, we don’t even advertise our healing services. (Pause) The healing aspect of our work, I’d put it. We don’t advertise the healings– healing aspect of our work. (Pause)

Prokes: This information will– how will it be used?

Jones: Hmm?

Prokes: How will this information be used?

Jones: That has already been given to them, that Stoen did what he did. He’s been– He’s given it to them much more extensively.

Prokes: Yeah, I recognized that–

Jones: But it should be modified, like I’m now giving it to you, if we don’t have to. Because once you start eating crow, and admitting you’re wrong, there’ll no– there’ll be no end to this.

Prokes: Yeah.

Jones: I think the way I’m handling this now to you, if you’ve got all of it. Did you get all of this?

Prokes: Yeah.

Jones: That uh, that could be done without showing we’re totally assholes.

Prokes: This’ll go in the ad, or just–

Jones: The ad and– or the release. It’s probably too late. They probably already got the damn news release so– change another time. We keep changing the sucker, they’ll wonder whether we’ve lost our minds or not. But that shows that at least they’re open to make decisions down there. When we say, well, they reviewed what they have, and maybe like to change it a little bit more and–

Prokes: Well, I’ll have it ready for them, just in case.

Jones: I’d give it to them.

Prokes: Okay.

Jones: Tell them that uh– that aspect, that we got support and if the government doesn’t seem to care about this thing, and it looks like it’s gonna die down, if we make a mild apologies to why, that we would– that– you can say– say the pastor believes Christ is all, something of that– that sort. Oh, I don’t know, I didn’t– uh, eating crow won’t be all that bad, but just say, not to elaborate and elaborate and elaborate, is (unintelligible word) I have any work to do there (unintelligible word) if I have to go to any people. My personal opinion is we– we fix it ourselves to grow– or weren’t growing when we said there’ll be no more healing services. But (unintelligible name) thought it was a must to say that.

Prokes: Who– That was his idea?

Jones: Hmm?

Prokes: That was Gene’s [Eugene Chaikin] idea?

Jones: It was in something I read.

Prokes: Did that go out?

Jones: Stoen. I don’t know whether it’s gone out yet now, but it was in something I read.

Prokes: Well, uh, do you want me to kill it if it hasn’t gone?

Jones: Well, that may be that we have to, you know, to keep the thing alive to any degree. But if they can kill it without an absolute (unintelligible word) we’re neber going to have a healing service, they should. ‘Cause it may be necessary, to get this flak down. (clears throat)

Prokes: To say that? Is that what you’re saying?

Jones: That we anticipate no– uh, no– uh, no further healing services.

Prokes: Okay.

Jones: And anything short of it, you know. (Pause) (unintelligible word) they was in this first news release that he read to me. But it may not be written down yet. It may not be released yet. (Pause)

Prokes: If it isn’t, uh– should I–

Jones: It was just like I said it, we anticipate having no–

Prokes: Okay.

Jones: –further healing services. We are– Uh, we’re not thinking about healing services. We are interested in building an agricultural mission. Something that leaves a loophole. Leave them out. It’s terrible to take away from these people’s hopes. All those healings that he’s reporting. And they certainly would have pastoral care that they don’t have. We share and give them equally, and all of our members equally. They don’t– they don’t get out, I don‘t get nobody to lead the (unintelligible word) the shepherd ought to leave. I don’t want to lead them, but I feel a moral duty, as it were, over all the situation. (Pause) (Static on the line) You call that crack on your phone.

Prokes: Uh, they’ve been having problems with it.

Jones: I see. Okay, I guess, talk to Stoen about what I just said now.

Prokes: Okay.

Jones: All these healings come in, and see if that– if it was necessary to arbitrarily say there’ll be no more healing services. He may feel it is, and Chaikin may feel it is, and if that’s the way it is, that– that’s it. There’s just no more healing service, once you say it. But you can say it sho– uh, shorter than Chaikin said it without just saying absolutely there is no more, why, if you know some (Pause) way of leaving it open, leaving an option open. But they may not be able to. (Pause) Maybe the flak’s so great that uh, they would just have to be uh– those ministers had to be assured that we won’t start a church. That’s why I’m not interested in the place, the future in the– in the (several unintelligible words). I’m not interested in such a damn climate where the government won’t put these jealous ass church people where they belong. You can say that this is a very great consternation to our board of trustees. When you’re talking to them – and tell Stoen I think they ought to – that they could say that, uh, they have a– there’s very grave consternation that uh– that here, and we are completely loyal to the uh– their programs and their administration. Uh, be careful about saying loyal to political parties and that sort of thing. But completely loyal, and go around in– interpreting, have to constantly defend the country, its worthy leadership, so why we can’t– we don’t want them to identify with our church or anything like that, but why they can’t give us sumport– support, when we– we had meetings which would further strengthen their goals. We wanted to work with the people and give the fullest support to the country. I’m avoiding the word “government,” as you can see. But you may have to say that. But what’s the attorneys’ opinion of how much to say. You gotta– the government or the– the leadership, or your– they’re your governments. Gold. So we could be of service to you in that area. And then to be attacked. The government’s paper is a very hard thing, and we understand. Hard for us to understand. The trustees (unintelligible word) it– found very hard to understand.

Prokes: Uh, would this go in the release if it–

Jones: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Never. This goes to the people in government, their chance to talk to– but they gotta say it, not with Gene. Gene’s too curt. You have somebody there that’s got a humbler tone, uh, because the idea of dismay. Say– the government, they said to us there, the government doesn’t need our help. And that– (unintelligible word) we thought the government always needed the help of the people. Particularly when we have so many people criticizing it, and we’ve had to defend it. We always know that good people are often in need of defense. Uh, good people are always in a– in need of support. ‘Cause anyone that does good, you’re gonna be criticized. But we– we’re doing what we felt we uh, had to do. Bring Guyanese into our program, let’s uh–­ let’s– let’s open our program to Guyanese, and also give them the benefit of the love. We may be talking to dumb Christian writers in the government, so they have to be careful how they do that. The love of God that’s healed and helped so many of us. And the law said Guyanese had to be involved in the program, so that’s what we were trying to do. The law, you know, not corporation. We were trying to involve Guyanese. (Pause) Say, we’ve– we’ve told you our loyalty, we were willing to put it on a polygraph test. Have to be careful about this thing, being loyal to uh, a foreign government, it’s– even though it is supported by the United States, which we have (unintelligible word). Don’t ask how we put that across. But I don’t think they should leave that die, although they– when they said it, uh, Chaikin probably said it in such a way, though when I said it, they seem to have been respect– respect that point of view. But when Chaikin said it, he was put in his place, but, you know, our Chaikin– Stoen said he has a way.

Prokes: Um-hmm.

Jones: People don’t– you humbly bring that kind of stuff in. Don’t just say, well, we have to support you la-de-la-dah. You know. Anybody’s going to be defensive when you tell them a thing like that. He should not see any government officials without Paula [Adams] present. (Pause) Although they may be a bunch of narcissistic fools that don’t realize how shaky their popular support is. I don’t know. Obviously, they are not as wise as we are. (Pause) Now, we don’t understand about being attacked in the government papers, should never be mentioned though, publicly. You know, that it should be like [Gavin] Kennard or Dr. [Ptolemy] Reid, if we get to him. (Pause) That we thought the one thing in the world we could do for this great country, that’s– you know, government, if you have to say it, is that to bring hundreds of people that would be loyal to you, through thick and thin, into your country. (Pause) ‘Cause you can see how loyal we are to each other and loyal to our own church leader might be threatening, and we give our loyalty when people are kind to us, as you’ve been to us, to entrust land to us, we never– our loyalty never changes. (Pause) We don’t expect you to bow to every one of our little needs, our loyalty’s not– our– our loyalty’s not based on you bowing to every one of our needs. You’ve already gotten our loyalty. It would have (unintelligible word), it would have kept it. You never heard a person– We haven’t upheld you, we’re willing, as we said, to take a polygraph test. We are­– We have– We have supported you to the highest degree. But some people just seem to be nitpicking all the time, telling terrible stories that are not true about the government. Say we run into it, not in the port, not in the port where we’re at, but we run into it out– in the cities something terribly. As I said to them, we didn’t– and there very little of it in the port. (Pause) But in the cities, we have run into an enormous amount, in the meetings, we had to interpret the whole thing started, because we– they called us– that one uh, reporter called us apologist for the government.

End of side 1

Side 2

Jones: Another one of [Forbes] Burnham’s preacher apologist, or something like that. (several unintelligible words) (Pause) Okay, I don’t know. (unintelligible word) Need to inflict the situation. If we can’t get backing uh, of people, be like we back our government here, we back– don’t– don’t uh, (unintelligible word) our loyalty to people. Back our own government. We don’t say that to them. (Pause) It’s obvious, I think, that we do.

Prokes: Okay.

Jones: We want this whole nation (unintelligible word), we know that they’ve been good to us, we’ve always been loyal to them. From the congressman to the simplest little businessperson. (Pause) And I think that’s– But check this out with Stoen. And he should– there should be more people on a phone call, than just uh, you and Randolph and Karen could be there.

Prokes: Karen is, you know, in San Francisco.

Jones: What if she asks me if she needs things then? She got her things ready?

Prokes: No. She was– would have Christine [Lucientes] bring them down.

Jones: Well, then, have Christine do that.

Prokes: Yeah.

Jones: Christine can be involved in it. Christine knows everything.

Prokes: Okay.

Jones: (several unintelligible words) impression, I don’t– I think she’s sometimes slow on the take, when it comes to decision (unintelligible word), you can say something to her right in the middle of a goddamn serious conversation, she blows her stack. That’s the only reason I didn’t let her in on it.

Prokes: What about uh–

Jones: ‘Cause she’s not to talk to anybody about Jeff, she’s got a little gossip tendency, talk to Patricia [Patty Cartmell] and others on my staff. Now you can say I don’t want to offend anyone. Nothing is said to any other member of my staff until it– I clear it. I’m trying to keep this problem isolated from everybody.

Prokes: June [Crym] has helped– yesterday helped Tim in some of the transcribing. What– What about involving her in–

Jones: Who?

Prokes:  June.

Sound of phone receiver picked up and dialed

Prokes: I’m on the phone. (calls out) I’m on the phone.

Woman: Uh-oh. Someone on here?

Prokes: Yes.

Woman: Oh. I’m sorry. (Laughs) I (unintelligible)

Jones: It’s long distance.

Hangs up.

Jones: Don’t even lifts the damn phone. (unintelligible word)– Who was that?

Prokes: I don’t know. It was one of the security people.

Jones: Babbling idiots. And you said that– Who’s been doing it? June?

Prokes: Yeah. It’s okay to involve–

Jones: All right. She’s very quiet. I don’t know about her. I never okayed her to do it. But I don’t know that woman. Probably’s gonna mean full responsibility for me sometime later on. Which I’m trying to avoid. I am a uh– Well, I bear scars. That’s where I am to this degree today. And you might say, I am worked to the bone. Literally. I don’t want to go into it any further. (Pause) Bloody, unbowed, but raw. You deeply understand me?

Prokes: Yeah.

Jones: And that’s what they do to me. That’s just what they do to me, when there’s more people that’s brought into it. More burdens I get. There’s only one way that our leader has today to fight (several unintelligible words) to keep loyalties. Only one way. (Pause) Particularly (unintelligible word). Now let’s see (unintelligible word) I can’t say it. All only one way for all people. It’s hard to quantify.

Prokes: Seems like–

Jones: People don’t follow character but charisma. Character won’t take them through. Charisma will– They’ll stand and work for charisma, but not character. The greatest pain in my life or my death. The greatest glory of my release will be that. When I can die, don’t cry for me. People don’t want to follow a character. A few of you do. A few of you do. Very few of you. Most of them, their loyalties are enhanced by time for hearing their burdens. You understand me?

Prokes: Mm-hmm.

Jones: The greatest sorrow to me is that, all the sensitivity and deep, deep hurt in that feeling I have in my mind, concern, like I’m concerned about Wanda Johnson’s child, even though Wanda’s despicable at times – remind me tomorrow, my memory’s (unintelligible word), And I’m concerned about Johnson, that big fat oaf bringing in another little– his daughter, the minute her own son’s gone, and expecting her to love her dau– his daughter after he’s beat on her son. But give it to me to bring up to the office. That thing I got (unintelligible word) in my mind. That’s tough, you know. He wouldn’t– he wouldn’t give a nice word to her son. And now, the minute– immediately she’s gone and he drags in his daughter, and she’s supposed to love and cherish her. That’s (unintelligible word) for a mother. Wouldn’t have her son around. In other words, my sensitivity and feeling I do for all the members, even people that I don’t trust, like Wanda. I don’t trust Wanda. I would– I could be a demagogue and people would follow me, if I’m charismatic enough. You understand.

Prokes: Umm-hmm.

Jones: That’s dreadful to me. Don’t talk about it either, ‘cause you can’t fill it out. I’m filling it out too much, I’ve talked about this too much in PC, because (unintelligible word) people. It limits your ability to use your talents, to keep them in– in mind (Sighs) involved in.

Prokes: Yeah.

Jones: I didn’t have anything to do over with it, much less honesty in that department. (Pause) Although some of you, the honesty’s going to be loyal. But there damn few of you. Some of you didn’t know what was going on, you being very much in question. But me, I just need to know though some, that I’d throw it out in general PC meetings. That the some know what’s going on, the few loyal ones. You, Stoen, Jean Brown, I don’t know how many loyal ones I got. Not very many. Other than the– the rest, I– I could name some others, but all those have got good reason to be loyal. But you know what I mean.

Prokes: You mean by virtue of what you’ve had to do.

Jones: Mmm. (unintelligible sentence) We’re on public property. Yeah. So  I can’t separate the loyalty there. (Pause) I don’t know what’s loyal or not. I don’t begrudge them the fact. I’m not sure that Jeannie isn’t looking forward to it. (Yawns, unintelligible word) time for me to discuss her problems. (Pause) Don’t believe in loyalty, unless your’re– unless you give them something to be loyal for. The mind of (unintelligible word) leader’s always at. But there’s no need to shout about the need for loyalty, you’re gonna have to give some for people, they’ve got to get something from you. There is such a time as something coming along that they can get more of, then you’re gone. Loyalties wax and wane with familiarity and with aging and everything else.

Prokes: It says something about– (clears throat)

Jones: It says that we’re hardly a step above the ape. The ape gets up and beats his chest and shows more fearlessness, and anybody that can beat the hell out of the other ape, he rules the entire company. And in a greatsense, that’s where I’m at. I’m– uh, uh, the reason people follow me is I’m the most unafraid or I’m something else. Same business, you know.

Prokes: Hmm.

Jones: But that still doesn’t dim the view of where we’re supposed to be headed, toward apostolic situations. It’s either that or perish anyway, there’s no alternative. Either apostolic, or death. And at least I think that’s almost– that’s the greatest uh, earmark of few of us’ dedication, that we continue to believe in, it’s death, not apostolic. That way, you’re gonna succeed. That’s the greatest thing about this wonderful work, it should be written. But nobody will read it, probably. You know that nobody’ll read it, so we don’t write it. (Short laugh) Even  it’ll be disintegrated to dust, probably, but that we continue to do what’s right, no matter what. We keep an order and a structure together for our people inside it. We have a loyalty to the family, above all other loyalties, so that people will not be hurt by being out in the world alone, without anyone to defend them. More need to talk about that publicly than me. That’s the most amazing thing about this work.

Prokes: Huh? And how you– Speak about it, when probably most feel– I mean, don’t you–  don’t– aren’t most optimistic? The way they (unintelligible word)–

Jones: Yeah, but– Yeah, but you can say it like this, well, whether– even Father, whether he felt that it was gonna be success or failure, he would remain– even if he thought all of would cut him tomorrow down or torture him, turn against him the next day, he would still fight for us to the last breath. What amazing love this is. I tell them, with no hope of reward– they can still have a reward, if I don’t have one, you know, put in that line. There’s not enough made of that in this group, and they can’t identify with it either, by one exposure. ‘Cause there nobody else functions that way. No one else can function, knowing that they are piece of shit and that– and are willing to throw themselves out rather than to be have to be thrown out. Willing to get out of the way, when they could no longer serve the group. Willing to take total responsibility for other people’s mistakes, we count down to a showdown. Somebody was falsely accused and was gonna be endangered, I’d take the blame. I wouldn’t let nobody take it. I was talking about taking the blame and going to jail for me. Bullshit. I wouldn’t allow it. (Pause) I didn’t allow it for PC, I’ve had– for Pa– Patty, I didn’t allow it for Carolyn [Layton], I didn’t allow it for a host of people. Jeff. Nobody. I moved in when it was extremely dangerous to me to move into the situation. There ain’t nobody goes to jail for me. I may well go to jail for those people, but ain’t nobody going to jail for me, if I can do anything about it. (Pause) Suffer enough for so many of you, hard work, truth– whether I think the knowledge that you got somebody that loves you. (unintelligible word) would be a reward that I would uh, be happy to work for. I’d like the knowledge of somebody to carry– I don’t need it anymore, though, doesn’t make any difference to me whether they– I don’t– (stumbles over words) Some of you got that point, where you don’t care to live, don’t care to die, don’t make any difference whether you’ve got anybody, but the one thing I can always justify, that we ought be– I ought to be reminded of, the workers ought to be reminded of is that there’s one thing we should be grateful for is that we were working (unintelligible word), that we’ve got the only person in this world that loves purely, that thinks (stretches out word) way beyond where he needs to think. I just gave you an example, though, of Wanda Johnson.

Prokes: Um-hmm.

Jones: ‘Cause she isn’t– I know Wanda Johnson, but there’s nothing to gain for me. I wanted a telephone call for Ava and John Brown, you know. In the midst of a battle, I’ll think of individuals, yesterday, last night.

Prokes: Yeah.

Jones: And never, never lose sight of the individual. Even when I’m half– uh, (unintelligible word), when I’m just half-witted, and down to the practically death’s door. And I’ve been sittin’ on buckets and everything else, uh, I been– there not– (several unintelligible words), I have not stopped this dehydration. I’m pouring enough at the other end, but I can’t stop it. And I’ve had no time to get to the doctor until tomorrow. Next day.  (Pause) Now I don’t want to get into no (unintelligible word) elaboration, you don’t need that, but I thought you could help me out. It can be capsulized, what I’m saying here that, to remind others that– You’re taping it, are you?

Prokes: Yeah.

Jones: Oh, that’s good. Now don’t lose this sucker.

Prokes: I won’t.

Jones: These tapes are gonna haunt us one day, we’re gonna have to get these tapes marshaled together. A tape like that should be kept uh– we could remind ourselves to remind others of our goodness. ‘Cause I don’t have a motivation to do it. Finally, tell all the people– I want to try to get the dates out of Sandy Bradshaw, so I’m trying to tell everybody to marshal all the tapes and bring them to me. Every tape you’ve got, every tape everybody’s got. I’m talking personally (unintelligible word), you know. (unintelligible word) And I hope they’re really guarded. Are they safeguarded?

Prokes: Uh, yeah, I think they’re– they’re well-guarded.

Jones: (unintelligible word) Believe me, it only takes one time for somebody to make hay on them, cutting out excerpts and stuff. Nothing illegal, but embarrass a lot. If I was to be honesty and truth of it. Well, I won’t hold you longer. You got a lot to do. I know it, and that burdens me, and I feel guilty about it, but I don’t know what else in the hell to do.

Prokes: Uh– How– how long will the uh, D.C. trip last? Week?

Jones: Oh, it’ll have to go more than a week. You can’t a damn thing done in a week, uh– like we oughta get done in a week. I think uh, 12 days, like we have. No, it’s about 12 days. Nineteenth to thirty-first.

Prokes: Okay. Uh– Do you want then to go ahead with Chaikin’s idea, or should we wait and discuss it.

Jones: What’s that?

Prokes: Using the radio?

Jones: I think it’s all right. I think it’s all right. It sounds good to me, uh– sounds good.

Prokes: And–

Jones: But it’s a little contradictory uh, for what purpose, you know, unless we’re gonna have further healing services. In defense, yes, it could be done, say this is just to show you some of the great and wonderful miracles that’ve been accomplished through Christ. My Christ is the Holy Spirit, what can (fades out) through Jim Jones, I’d say, quit that bastard of bishop. I think I mentioned Bishop once for identification, but to the (unintelligible word) through Jim Jones. Let me seem like the rest of them, though. You know, don’t say Reverend Jim Jones. Say, though Jim Jones is a man of several degrees, graduate of the best universities. Studied law. (Off phone) No, no, no, no, no, no, no. (Back to Prokes) And a doctorate. But uh, he wants to be called Jim Jones. That’d be a good point. And I think that they ought to put that, by the way, in the release. My education (unintelligible word).

Prokes: Okay.

Jones: I don’t know about the doctorate, because that’s honorary (unintelligible word) you know, but uh– Yes. Many university graduate and a public school teacher, principals. Principal. Always one for making a living. Uh– graduate of the best university. Attended several universities and graduate of the best. (Pause) But he always thought he would use his degree (unintelligible word), an honorary doctor degree. (several unintelligible words) Doesn’t use any of that. Don’t use– Doesn’t use any of two titles. Two honorary doctor degrees, I meant, (unintelligible word), that group I befriended in los Angeles, I don’t know what their religion is, they got the qualifications to bestow a doctorate. They (several unintelligible words).

Prokes: Hmm.

Jones: If somebody’s got a patient, got hope, somebody’s gotta– I don’t know what the hell to do with it, I don’t give a shit about stuff like that. Somebody better have it, I don’t know where it is– where they– or never to keep stuff like that. ‘cause I wouldn’t– (several unintelligible words) What’d you say?

Prokes: Uh, I was gonna mention that uh, the film came back and they’ll have– they’ll have it ready–

Jones: Oh, that’s good.

Prokes: It’s uh– It should go about 40 minutes.

Jones: That’s the best thing we can have in the world is get something to talk to them about. I haven’t (unintelligible word) We will be able to go tomorrow night?

Prokes: Yeah. I’m editing it now.

Jones: Mm-hmm. Interesting if it were undesirable pictures of miserable conditions.

Prokes: Yeah, some of that. Bad exposures and out-of-focus stuff.

Jones: Well, some out-of-focus stuff, we don’t need to worry too much about it, if it’s– it doesn’t make the office look terribly bad. Sometimes that’s funny. That can be sort of little fun along the way. To pass the staff if there were something they want to pick up on, don’t worry about it, don’t cut out everything. And I’m sure you’ve had some good shots, that– We shouldn’t miss some things that they– he look on second take, you know, reveal something.

Prokes: Okay.

Jones: I’m glad you do that movie work, ‘cause that’s the best thing of the trips. Too bad they can’t know where– where in the hell we are over there. Talk to Tim about me, what I said about to you about the government, approaching them, somebody, but again, it ought to be Paula and Chaikin. But humbly done, to say this is the wilderness, that this wilderness, that we can’t get these people, that– that– that we’re not– the government paper, they can understand why they can‘t get these people off our backs. No other church is out there. No, that’s too strong. But say, I– there’s no other– other churches are not out there, toiling from sun-up to sundown to feed the nation. We don’t know of any other church, anyway. You know, kind of humble. And here we have to spend all this resource defending ourselves when we have not had any personal ambitions, as clearly indicated, when we refuse to take any money even, through the Guyanese people. And instead of being grateful to us, to give it to agriculture. Say, if everybody– body come in your country did that– But that’s too strong. Say, if everybody– I don’t know. Say, in our experience, at least, we don’t know of any other missionary that’ve operated that way. They usually come into a country and take out. Even– many nations, they still send money to American headquarters. We absolutely refuse to accept even a dime. And when we said they want to help, send it to the Ministry of Ag– you send it, not the Ministry of Agriculture, but the School of Agriculture. Say, we’da been glad to tell them to send it to the uh, government– for various programs, but we– we didn’t want to do that without your approval, because that would link our church with your government. We didn’t want the– We weren’t– Our– Our bishop said we are not going to be that presumptuous. But when I say it’s the school of agriculture, we thought that would be indirectly. Or telling them to do their own agricultural mission. Say, our– our pastor has an ability to raise funds, he can marshal great funds, even from your own people, into your program, but he felt like it’d be misunderstood.

Prokes: Okay.

Jones: I think that elastic might– might appeal to them. They love money. I understand Burnham takes offerings something like– somewhat like I do. They can say it jokingly, say the only person we ever saw they can take and then cause people to give to a good cause, we’ve only see one like it, and that’s Mr.– it’s your own prime minister. We’ve never handled all this money. They ought to say too that they were– he never handled it. Don’t imply the– the same note that it sounds like that Mr. Burnham does, but say that– they ought to say that before they bring Mr. Burnham’s name into play. You know, he never handles the money, won’t touch it, but he can raise money, and he can raise no doubt thousands of dollars there, but he knew it would be misunderstood, even if there’d been uh– what, in future meetings there woulda been– it coulda been wonderful, there coulda been people from the various programs to receive the money. (Pause) You know, just like in what might have been. I don’t know what they realize what they’ve lost, but they’ve lost a great deal. (Pause) They coulda silenced this damn opposition, if they’ve got any government hold on there. They’d had no outlet. The press that– in control, they had no outlet.

(Prokes and Jones speak over each other)

Jones:  – not outlet for the criticisms. Where the hell they gonna talk about it?

Prokes: Who’s that?

Jones: Who? These people that’re attacking us.

Prokes: Oh. I see. (Pause)

Jones: You know, they say it’s such a perfect situation, they let people work– trying to work for them. Then they get a little (unintelligible word), a little quick and humbly. Say the hardest thing for our people to understand, or hard to comprehend is why we have to face criticism from people who have consistently tried to thwart the efforts of your government and criticize your government. We take up our precious time defending ourselves from people like this, the government thinks. (clears throat) (Pause) Our pastor is uh, a born leader, but he doesn’t want any uh, glory for himself here. He’s got tremendous following behind– good congressmen in the U.S. that were working civil rights. That’s safe to say. He would’ve– he could’ve marshaled half your city into your camp. The people. That’s why the minister, (unintelligible word) threatened. They can say it is obvious (unintelligible word)– they– they– they can say, that’s why at least you ministers are so– so threatened, ‘cause they can draw– But you can say, we’ve had two ministers that’ve come to our support, very forcefully. If they have to give a name, give them (unintelligible name). But don’t give us (unintelligible word) church, you know, whatever, you know, unless they have to. They want to know who’s in (unintelligible word). They can say another common name, Reverend something, you know, common name there. ‘Cause they may take it as me being a threat to them. If they could see that there were no threat, he can marshal– You wouldn’t have no more criticism– there’d be no criticism of your government in hischurches. Anybody that was in his congregation, or in uh, our mission. We don’t tolerate it. We don’t tolerate criticism of the uh– we– we–  it just policy, if you’ve got something to say to the government, you don’t sneak around and sow division. You go directly to the person that’s in charge of whatever program you dislike. Write it to them privately. ‘Cause a nation– newly-emo–– emerging nations need unity, total and complete. I’m amazed that they don’t respond to this. They might question our loyalty, we’re gonna use such power for our own ends, they can say we’d be glad to take a lie detector test to prove to you our loyalty. That’s what you say to government people.

Prokes: Yeah.

Jones: Somebody’s got some significance. (unintelligible word) refuse to get out of the streets, ‘cause the government’s not popular. Or to the little man at the low end of the totem pole. Somebody like (unintelligible name)–

(interruption by another open line for several seconds)

Jones: Hmm?

Prokes: Trying to (unintelligible word). I think he’s home.

Jones: Okay.

Prokes: All right.

Jones: Yeah, (unintelligible sentence), get Carolyn a lot of briefing tomorrow when you get there, just in case I send her out there.

Prokes: Okay.

Jones: Umm-hmm. I love you, man.

Prokes: Thank you, Jim.

Jones: Sorry you have to be involved in so much damn strategy. The only thing that I hate is that trustworthiness, by its own merit, creates such a responsibility. But at least you know you’ve got purpose, and there’s no other thing in life that’s more fulfilling than purpose and being loved by person that loves the most and someone that’s trying to teach others to love the most. (unintelligible word) eloquently said that, no other thing can be offered to you. However very few I can trust.

Prokes: I know that.

Jones: Take care.

Prokes: Okay, Jim.

Jones: Bye-bye.

Prokes: Bye.

End of tape