[Editor’s notes: The transcript of this document retains its original spellings, with corrections noted only where necessary for clarity.]
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Deborah Touchette
September 7, 1978
USSR
w/Tim C [Carter], Tony W [Walker], Deb. T. [Deborah Touchette]
– Tim, Tony, Dan, and Terri [Carter] were to go, but Terri had another appt. and couldn’t make it at the last munite.
– Tim basically gave him the background of [private investigator Joe] Mazor and then wrote out his name for Timofeyeve [Soviet Embassy official Feodor Timofeyev] to see.
– he gave Timofeyeve the letter to read about the vacation
– he kept making sounds like “umph” & “umph-huh”, and nodding as he read.
– he said this is very interesting, much different then [than] from before. alot of new things have been added.
– bifore you just referred to the (he made a gester [gesture] of his hands two feet from the ground) children.
– he said there was something he didn’t agree with though; that was the point about Jim going to the U. S. to die
– he said you need your leader and he needs you, I don’t think you should seperate [Handwritten marginal note: “only if JJ terminal”]
– Tim said well, thats not altogether true, we need him, but he doesn’t need us.
–Timofeyev said he disagreed, you both need each other, to be effective.
– said I hope when you go to the USSR, you don’t intend to disperse. (spreading his arms wide to show disbursement)
– I hope you will stay together and be a co-operative, you could even be an eg. [example] and the Soviet Union.
– People even in the S.U. are, well they have it in their heads, but not in practice, to have it thearatically [theoretically] and to make it applicable are two different things, and you could be an eg. to people like that.
– he said he would not trust this person that has come out with information.
– you can never trust someone who has left from one side to swith [switch] over to another.
– eg. some of the communist[s], when they were fighting the Nazi’s, when it came to a confrontation, some people got scared and walked over to the other side, (not those who were wounded then capatured, that’s different)
– I had said earlier that we had the deepest feeling for the USSR and that we were willing to die for what we believed but we couldn’t see dying w/o a struggle.
– he said “I know”, “but you’re so young and have you ever seen a man die actually shot with a bullet?
– yes, I said.
– Tim said yes in Viet Nam, and I’m not bragging, thats what changed me.
– He said you don’t, at least I don’t feel you need to convince me about your commitment, you willingness to die
– and I hope it is the same, (or will be the same – not sure how this was stated) with the others here and in the USSR, but it’s… (Timofeyeve said this)
– I said, I know, were willing to die, but were also willing to live, and the struggle to live and build is much harder…
– “Sure, of course”, he said.
– he ref. to the communist that said they were
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– willing to die, proclaimed communist, but when the time came to fight, they gave up arms and went to the other side. Some went to camps w/out protest. Some took on jobs in the camps and took part in the tortures etc. but they were marked and also killed later.
Some people later have asked to go to the U. S. and Isrel w/this zionist thing w/ some of the jews
– Yes, thats totally ridiculous, Tim said
– well they’ve asked to go, but most don’t ask to go to Isrel, they want to go to the U. S. or some capitalist country.
– We tried to educate them, did all we could to teach them about capitalism and the rents and bills etc. Things that they would have to deal with that they don’t have to now.
– Some applied to go on vacation (as they had encouraged instead of just leaving to they could see then they could return) others just left.
– Were [We’re] humanist you know, but we couldn’t take most of them back and over 3/4 applied to come home. We only took about one hundred total.
– He said we needed this to keep, he needed something in writting. He couldn’t just send the USSR a telegraph saying that P.T. had said all this, they would just ask him for evidence.
– He would have to send something substantial like a letter, he needed to show to the Charge d’Affairs, or the Ambassador. [Handwritten marginal note: “ok”]
– Tim said well I’d rather take it, and find out about putting it in writting.
– Timofeyev asked why?
– I said it’s not that we don’t trust him, but we don’t know who we can trust these days, Tim Stoen was a CIA agent, and look how close he was to us.
– I can’t remember the exact wording now, but in so many words he said that it was time we developed a certin amount of trust in each other, especially if were talking seriously about moving there, and we need to produce something in writting as proof of our loyalty, or at least the beginning of a trusting relationship.
[Several lines struck through]
– I mentioned that we didn’t mind dying, but we didn’t want to die without a struggle.
– he said I feel that I know you are ready to die, but your so young, have you ever seen a man die? I mean with a bullett in him.
– I said I have.
– Tim said yes, in the Viet Nam war. I’m not bragging, thats what changed me.
– Timofeyeve shook his head yes, to say he understood.
– If your [you’re] thinking of having rep. [representatives] of P.T. in the USSR, it wouldn’t be a good idea for security reasons for P. T. sake.
– how would you communicate? Telex? mail, phone? you wouldn’t be able to
– We asked if it would be faster to step up communication to have a delagation go
– he said how many? topic? for vacation? how long?, said our visit would not be successful without going through the embassy and getting an invitation form [from] the Soviet Union. [Handwritten marginal note: “Not vacation”]
– said he was waiting for Jim’s opinion from last week on the International Scene (in writting)
– we said it was comming.
– it’s comming? Well, it’s comming … that’s what I could say about your answer, it’s comming, it could be soon, could be later, you understand?
– he said to give it a lot of thought – our proposal
– and we should think in depth, think twice before using information this informer was giving us until we get an answer from our friends (meaning the USSR)
– he said we were in a position where we were surrounded by our friends, who are surrounded by enemies, who are surrounded by friends, etc.
– don’t trust an informer he said.
– Timofeyeve said his next step, after getting something in writting, was to talk to Jim personally.
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Deborah Touchette
September 12, 1978
USSR
w/ Deb. T. [Deborah Touchette] & Terri J. [Terry Carter Jones]
– we carried the letter that Bea Orsot sent to the Embassy,
– he kept shaking his head in agreement while he was reading the letter,
– he got up and asked us if we would like to listen to some music while he was reading the letter.
– when he finished, he said thank you, this is really good, this is very good can I keep this?
– Terri told him he could.
– Terri asked him about getting brochiers [brochures] for agriculture, and medical equip[ment].
– he said he gave brochers to Sharon Amos about that, and that was sometime [some time] ago, in fact he had ordered them special for P.T.
– said he would put us on to their sales merchant here and he could talk to us more in depth about the matter.
– Terri told him we had 5 mil to spend on equip, and supplies
– he raised his eyebrows, said well he could arrange a committee of people in the commercial area, said they are here to do sales not only with the govt but individuals and co-operatives, committees, etc. and they could advise us to all the things available, that was not his area. [Handwritten marginal note: “pursue”]
– this was said with enthusiasm…
– I asked him if he understood what we ment [meant], that we would like to buy these things and have them ready and held for us in the S.U.?
– he said oh?, well I don’t know if they will be able to do that, but you could talk to him.
– I re-enterated [reiterated] that we were leave them there for the (I motioned with my hands moving) should anything happen, we would want to leave everything here for the govt., wouldn’t be taking anything with us.
– he said, you mean as a gift?, how do you mean?
– Terri said, well, yes,
– he said you ought to sit down and really think about doing that.
– we asked him what he ment,
– he said if you ought to really think of doing it that way, if you mean to leave it as a gift to the govt. of Guyana.
– Terri said, well, you must have something in mind, or you wouldn’t have said that. We welcome anything you say, questions, don’t be afraid to ask. If you tell us what your thinking, it might spark a new thought in our minds, because we have thought about this very seriously.
– he said yes he was thinking that they might not want to accept our gift.
– they might take the approch that we don’t want anything more from you (I thought he said or anything your attached to), so you might try for a different approach.
– Terri said yea, I see what your saying…
– I said well the idea, was to not be an embarrassment to the Govt.
– he said sit down over a cup of coffee and think about it.
– Do you mind if I ask you a personal question? he said.
– Terri said, no.
– he asked if we had communication with the DPRK [Democratic People’s Republic of Korea] like we do with them? he said some of the people in the embassy had asked him that, and he had to say he didn’t know, so he thought he’d ask.
– He mentioned that they thought about this after seeing us at the DPRK reception.
– I told him we had contact with the DPRK, but it was not as extensive as our communication wht [with] them, in fact would tell everyone about our background, and about the community J/town, and why we moved here, the things our group has gone through, and the reasons why.
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Deborah Touchette
September 15, 1978
USSR
w/ Tim [Carter], Deb. [Deborah Touchette]
– Timofeyeve was friendly, in fact all the people in the embassy were noticeably mroe friendly that they have ever been before.
– Timofeyeve could not understand the tape, so Tim explained to him the only audible part of the tape which was about two min.
– Timofeyeve thought that the story Mazor told of comming over the bourder of Venezuela to Guy., was just that, a story to institute paranoia.
– It’s a round the bush story, it doesn’t give specifics… how many people were involved, exactly when did they come… dates, names… did you see any of these people?
– knowing that we are a pacifist group, they are trying to set you up to become militant in self defense; naturally you here [hear] this story, so you prepare yourself to protect yourself against the enemy… so you take in artillery, and you store it in a safe place… then American officials, or the police demand a search and they find these things… you are automatically a militant group, no matter if you explain it’s there for self defense, you have no reason to use them, only under a case of an attack, then it gets out… or hits the press, and they’ve got a story they want.
– he asked if he was asking for money for the information he was giving?
– I said yes, in a way, only in that we paid his ticket here and back, and… (I started to quote Mazor that we were paying him for each day that he stays here)
– Tim said no, we are not paying him for what he says.
– Tim asked him if there was a way we get in touch with him in a case of emergency, another number other then [than] the office.
– Timofeyeve said we could call the embassy anytime, day or night they were there, somebody would be there twenty-four hours a day, if we say it is an emergency, they will call him.
– Tim said well, I called the other day, and siad it was an emergency, and they would not put me on to you, they said I’m sorry he is out, you’ll have to call tomorrow…
– Timofeyeve said there are varring degrees of emergencies. eg. he didn’t consider the present matter of Mazor a pressing emergency the reason being he thought it was a story… and not a fact.
– he said what Mazor had said, they would consider at the embassy ‘informational noise’, they don’t consider anything information until they have concrete evidence that the information is fact.
– Tim mentioned [former Guyana Minister of Foreign Affairs] Fred Wills, and Timofeyeve wanted to know if Fred was a friend of ours
– we both said well, yes, Tim said he was a friend of yours too.
– Timofeyeve asked us how we knew that, or who told us that.
– Tim said Fred told us so.
– Timofeyeve said they have evidence that Fred was a friend of everybody, and the U. S., that he was very much a friend of the U. S. (he had also asked us if we knew why Fred had been removed)
– The doctor has not returned yet.
– he asked us to have ready concret proposals and questions for the sales manager, and we would have to give him a little of the background of P.T.
– Timofeyeve said he sent a report to Moscow about the P.T.
– Tim asked him if the report was a good one…
– Timofeyeve said well, yes it was good.
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– he shook his head yes.
– I said we have never gone into as much detail, we’ve not even begin [begun] to go into the things we have with you. You are our mother, I said and our life is an open book with you.
– he said I hope you see me as your father, not your mother…
– I started laughing because I realized how that sounded. When we say you, we mean the USSR, as you know.
– he said well, I didn’t have any question, it’s just that some of the cde’s [comrades] in the Embassy were asking me, and I didn’t know, so I thought I’d ask you. It might be your policy, I don’t know, to go out searching… I’m not saying that’s good or bad, I just wondered if that was your policy.
– Terri said well, as Debbie said, we’ve never gone into any details with them,
– Have you ever ask the Cubans? he asked?
– there was a brief moment of silence…
– Terri said well I’ve only gone there twice, and all I remember asking if a deligation could go and visit their country, but thats all I remember, but I haven’t been in town as much as Sharon has, and I don’t really know. But I will ask, I’ll certainly ask.
– No you don’t have to ask, you don’t have to tell me if you don’t want to…
– Terri said no, she would ask, because she didn’t know.
– I didn’t say anything, and I thought it would be better to leave it until we had contact with you.
– before he asked the personal question,
– Terri asked him if the doctor had come into town?
– he said no, but he didn’t know what was keeping him, said his wife was also worried, he was supposed to be back by the end of Aug.
– but that he would come to J/town with him when he comes
– he said we were told that Peoples Temple falls under Min. of Home Affairs and they can only officially communicate with Foreign Affairs and they aren’t very fast to answer, in fact, if we had not intervined, and Mike Prokes called Home Affairs, the last situation of the tass [Tass] reporter would not have taken place, in fact they didn’t get an answer until the last munite when Home Affairs called Foreign and they called them.
– he said when you arrange this next trip, and you’ll have to help us out or we won’t get in very fast otherwise, you should say that the doctor is going in just to visit, on unofficial visit, and you should say that I am comming to give a licture [lecture].
– you could say I was comming to have a personal visit with Cde. Jones, but then they probably wouldn’t like me to do that, so if you say it’s for a licture… I’ve been giveing lictures at the University, and named two other places that he had lectured… so it would be reasonable to say that.
– we agreed that of course we would do that, and Terri said we had told Mingo we were trying to get a doctor up ther anyway, so I don’t think there would be a problem.
– well you understand my reasoning don’t you, he said.
– we told him that we did, and would not mention them comming officially,
– he said I could say I was comming as an interprater, but I don’t think they would believe me because of my position in the embassy,
– presently I am second in the embassy.
– by the way, when Terri told them we had 5 mil to spend on Agricultural equip and Med supplies (told Timofeyeve)
– he said, “You don’t run down, you don’t slow down…
– I thought he was ref. [referring] to our pushing to get something set up there.
[Handwritten notation: “I agree with this write up – Terry”]