(Editor’s note: This tape was reviewed by Nicole Bissett. The editors gratefully acknowledge her invaluable assistance.)
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Man: Jones? Jones? I just don’t– Yeah, I just don’t know. But do you know where he is?
Woman: No, uh, he was going to be going cross country, I think, I’m not sure. He was on a missionary thing or something, I’m wasn’t really sure of the whole thing, I’m just a secretary.
Man: Uh-huh. Well, he– he– just as far as I know, he just walked out and left everything here. And uh, I have nothing to make out an income tax return with him for.
Woman: I see. So you just had like, last month’s bills or something.
Man: I– I have this February, is all I have.
Woman: (cuts in) Oh.
Man: I– I don’t have much. Uh, when I called to try to get him, the girl didn’t know anything about the things there.
Man: So, I just– I’m at a loss to do anything.
Woman: I’ll be darned. Well, I think, uh– We’re just kind of, you know, piecing it together to get the necessary business taken care of him– for him, because we’ve been his attorneys off and on through the years so, I think that we can probably take care of it through some– he keeps in contact with us occasionally.
Woman: Uh, if there’s anything we can do to help you, though, I– you know –
Man: I– I mean, I just can’t do anything without the facts and figures, and I don’t have ‘em.
Woman: Mm-hmm [Yes]. Okay.
Man: All right.
Woman: Thank you very much.
Man: You’re welcome.
Marceline Jones: Okay?
Albert Kahn: First of all, of course, my name is Albert, which is not a secret.
Marceline: (laughs) Okay.
Kahn: And the only guy who ever made me a doctor, I accepted it, although I– I– I– I declared in public, it never happened.
Kahn: But I have to accept it because he said, never mind, he was making me one then. But that was Jim. Now I never was a doctor.
Marceline: Oh really. Well you –
Kahn: No and– and I never got a doctor’s degree when I was his (unintelligible word) and– and–
Marceline: Well, you should have been.
Kahn: Well, I was damn lucky to graduate.
Marceline: Well, you– you certainly are a doctor, as far as I’m concerned.
Kahn: Well, listen, I– I couldn’t even stop myself from getting a– I had some sort of a stroke last Friday night, and uh, uh, I– I was not supposed to come to that meeting, you– you know, uh.
Marceline: I know, I just–
Kahn: And– And uh, maybe– maybe it wasn’t, I was sorta– you know, it wasn’t so serious.
Marceline: I know, but you must take care of yourself.
Kahn: Only very slight, they call it TIA.
Kahn: Which is, you know, Temporary [Transient] ischemic Attack.
Marceline: That’s right.
Kahn: But I want you to know so you can have the exact truth about me, I’m having a card printed, and I’m putting Albert E. Kahn, TIA on it.
Kahn: And everyone will think that I am a doctor or somethin’, like a degree, you see?
Marceline: (laughs) Well–
Kahn: It’s the only degree I’ve gotten, though–
Marceline: Well, I certainly think you should– Ya know, an honorary degree should be bestowed upon you for all you’ve done for justice.
Kahn: Well, I want– I wanted to, I wanted to have a chat with you, you know, and I– And let me begin by saying, that I hope you will not think me presumptuous for calling you.
Marceline: Not a bit.
Kahn: Okay. Because, actually, if I had been in or– But it’s very difficult, with all the pressures on you there, uh, in the Temple and with a meeting going on or anything, and all the things that have to be done, it’s very difficult for us to do what I wanted to do, not then, but to come and especially to do–
Kahn: –uh, which was really to sit down with you for half a day, or– or a couple of hours, whatever you could spare, and just sit and talk with you before I went abroad, and I feel very– really, really very upset about the fact that this hasn’t been done by me. Uh, I uh– I’m not speaking now just about Jim, I’m speaking also about you. Uh– We’ve only met actually in our lives a half a dozen or a dozen times, and uh, certain things in life have come to mean a great deal to me.
Kahn: And you and he are among them. And it was my duty to– to– to be in there, and to have a– a chance to sit and chat with you, just, you know, alone, or in a relaxed fashion, doing what– (laughs) having a cup of tea or whatever you wanted to have, you know what?
Marceline: Yeah, I– I know well the feeling, uh–
Kahn: You know what I mean?
Marceline: Yes, I know, and I– I keep thinking, you know, surely that will be heaven. (Laughs) When we are able to allof us sit down, and have so much in common in the way of our beliefs in what we think’s important to live for and to die for.
Kahn: Well, I would have been in there. If it hadn’t been for the fact that during the last couple of weeks, I really have been going kind of crazy with that delegation coming. I was not meant to do anything about it. Uh– It wasn’t meant to be my responsibility to work on it. Uh, Erma did a marvelous job, but all sorts of things fell into my lap.
Kahn: And of course, if it hadn’t been for Dick and for your whole group, that wha– the thing that was, the whole thing which turned out to be so successful, the whole thing would’ve turned to be not successful at all. And, at the same time, I was trying to– I’ve been trying to finish up on two books, and it’s been a hectic period here, so I simply failed, and I don’t excuse myself.
Marceline: Please, please, know well, that I understand.
Kahn: All right, then, I– I won’t go on apologizing.
Marceline: No, I understand it perfectly, because uh, I, and I know Jim has had the same feeling, that we’re so busy trying to bring justice in a system that is constantly, uh– Well, we’re always on the defensive for justice.
Marceline: You know what I’m saying.
Marceline: And there’s not time to do these things that are really very important and would be the thing that would give us strength to go on, and that’s to sit down with people like you and talk and share what we have. But I know there’s just not the time.
Marceline: I understand it perfectly.
Kahn: Well, I’m going to find and follow you around until you stop somewhere sometime for a moment, and (laughs) we’ll make the time when I come back– when I come back.
Marceline: Yeah, I, but–
Kahn: But before I go, and even though, with someone that I feel about as I feel about you, uh, even though I dislike talking on the phone, uh– but I much, you know– it’s all the difference in sitting facing, you know, face-to-face with someone.
Kahn: Nevertheless, I wanted to have a little chat with you if you can spare five or ten minutes right now.
Kahn: Can you?
Kahn: Okay. First of all, I wanted to say, I have, at no point, had any discussion at all with you, or– or with uh, with Michael, or with–with uh, with anyone. Uh, uh, uh, I’m– I’m– I’m– my mind is– is still like it was kicked by a horse, it’s very funny the effect of that thing.
Marceline: Yeah, I know, you–
Kahn: Fogs out– it fogs out– it fogs out names. But with, you know, any of your close colleagues, uh, it’s– it’s just– I just haven’t sat down and talked, and, secondly, I have no questions, really, to ask of Miss Stahl if we were sitting and talking– this is, uh, I think it might be entirely different.
Marceline: Mm-hmm [Yes].
Kahn: Uh, all I know, uh, is that Jim– this is– and this part of this is entirely my belief, overworks in some ways, terribly.
Kahn: Which he always has been doing.
Marceline: Very much overworked.
Kahn: Had– Has happened to him, I don’t know, I have no idea about this, it’s pure speculation, but once, uh, about ten years ago in Russia and once right after the end of the McCarthy period, I had what was– I collapsed from what was called exhaustion.
Kahn: Uh, I absolutely collapsed.
Kahn: I was incapable of doing a damn thing. I actually, uh, really– I used to write twelve, thirteen hours a day when I was younger. I actually, for a period, could not write one paragraph, and I couldn’t even read a paragraph. And I went through a period – I’m not making any comparisons – I’m just saying–
Kahn: –I know what can happen to you when it– from exhaustion.
Kahn: They put me in a, a rest home and uh, in the Soviet Union, and I went through a period when I came back, and it was– that was after the McCarthy thing, and I finally got my passport, I went through a period when it was like, during the whole fight, somehow or other, everything, I–I– when I managed to, you know– I– The fight was something I was in, and part of and I– I even relished part of it. Uh, I wanted to fight.
Kahn: There’s nothin’ I wanted more. When it was over at a certain point, uh, I– it was like shell shock. Now, with Paul Robeson, he was terribly hard hit. We were both hit at the same time, and we both– Dr. [W. E. B.] DuBois, he was the hardest son of a gun you ever saw, he– he– he just laughed, nothin’ seemed to faze him.
Kahn: I think he was too old and too wise.
Kahn: But, uh, I got in a situation, uh– Three times this has happened to me. Once, I had paralysis, uh, once I had this physical thing where I just sat, and once I had what I, in retrospect, call, not economically, but in my own personal life, as my great depression.
Kahn: I– I didn’t have any money to lose. I didn’t have a depression like that and– like they had in the 1930s, but I sure as hell was no good. For a while I just couldn’t do anything.
Kahn: And the only thing with me– Now I– and I’m just talking only about myself.
Kahn: The only thing with me that did anything good at all was rest. Really.
Kahn: I mean, nobody’s advice, except the love of my wife [Harriet], uh, I– As a matter of fact, I found it very difficult to be with people. Now, all I’m saying is, that there’s a certain amount that the body and the mind can take from the sort of work – however it hits them – from the sort of work that a guy like Jim has been doing.
Marceline: I totally agree with that, and I– I don’t know whether you know, he did collapse, you know, at the Housing Commission meeting.
Kahn: No, I just heard, I– I– I didn’t know what they meant. I heard that he was exhausted, and had to stop working, but they didn’t tell me he collapsed.
Marceline: Yeah, he– he did, and uh, he’s not to the point, you know, that– that you describe. Uh, I mean, he seemed to– he was still functioning. But, uh.
Kahn: Right? Well, I was moving.
Marceline: Yeah, yeah.
Kahn: I mean I was moving around and talking.
Marceline: But actually, we got– we just sort of– me and others around here, sort of took it in our own hands and uh, put a lot of pressure on Jim to say, look, you– you’re too vital to die.
Kahn: That’s the point.
Marceline: And uh, we know– I mean I know him well enough to know that at this point, at least, he just can’t be idle.
Marceline: And so we suggested that he go over to Guyana and to the agricultural mission and uh, maybe do some speaking Caribbean, uh, you know, and just change his environment.
Marceline: So uh, we urged him to get away and really, you know, packed his bags and uh, so he wouldn’t have to worry about our sons, and so I wouldn’t have to worry about ‘em, because they’ve been– you know, their lives have been under threat and duress also.
Marceline: We just sent them along.
Kahn: Damn good.
Marceline: And uh, I hope he’ll stay away for two or three months. I don’t know, whether we’re going to get that many.
Kahn: Well, I– I– I tell you, you know, Jim has, uh, talked to me briefly, or about me once in a while, in such a way that I think he knows that– I have a feeling he knows, that even though I do not, I am not a good enough man to deserve the love of my wife–
Kahn: I– I– I have– I am dedicated in my life to certain causes, and for forty years since I began to get educated after I got out of college, uh, that– there’s been nothing else in my life. Now, I am gonna write Jim, uh, there is nothing in my opinion, that is of more value to the world in which he is living here, than that he take proper care of himself. It– It’s very hard for a man– I mean, I– I– And– I know he will not think me presumptuous.
Marceline: No, I don’t think he will, and I would appreciate it if you would. Uh, I know he has great respect for you, and I know that he uh, would take it from your past experiences. You know.
Kahn: Well, I’m going to tell him everything, any– everything and anything, and I’m gonna say, I don’t know what the situation is with him, and I’m gonna say if– if, some time (unintelligible word) I can come down and spend a couple of days with him or anything, one– that’s one thing. Another thing I’m gonna tell him is that when I get to the uh– to the Congress, I sure as hell am going to, not only report to the Congress, but through the Congress, there’re gonna be, I don’t know how many tens of millions of people around the world who are going to hear about his work–
Kahn: –which they should know about–
Marceline: That’s great.
Kahn: And I’ll– and a hundred– There’ll be there from a hundred countries.
Marceline: That’s beautiful.
Kahn: And I want to do that, and uh– and one thing I forgot to say yesterday was when I– uh, I was very disturbed at that one point, when I was talking, I have to learn not to get disturbed, but I was very disturbed at one point, and I didn’t finish at four. And when I was talking about the cesspool that surrounds some of us, and– and the– and the terrible– I– I mean the appalling, sickening uh, attacks on– on people like yourselves, (stumbles over words) I mean they– they disturb me very much. I wanted to say too, that I do regard my pen as a weapon. And it does reach, it is translated in twenty-five or thirty languages.
Marceline: Yes, yes.
Kahn: And I– my– I want him to know, that my pen is his sword. Uh– I want to put it at his disposal, with whatever way I can in that– in that other situation.
Marceline: Uh, yeah.
Kahn: I mean, in– in that slanderous, that (unintelligible word), I don’t, I’m tired of going into (unintelligible word)– I want to show what happens to a man, a woman, a family, a people whom you fa– a big family that you’ve made, what happens to that family in this society, when all it tries to do, the only thing it tries to do, is to make life happier for other human beings.
Kahn: And I’ll– and I’m just gonna– I’m just gonna talk and write about that on television and radio and so-on and so-forth, in the socialist world and in the rest of the world, I’m gonna do it here too when I get the chance–
Kahn: –and I– and I want him to know that, that’s all. He can– and I want him to know he can count on that.
Marceline: I’ll– I’ll certainly let him know that, and I know that’ll make him feel very, very strong, and very, very supported because uh–
Kahn: Well, it’s the least– it’s the least I can do for a man like that, you know. Uh, I– I– And by the way, it is rather silly because, uh, to speak all the time of a man like that, because– uh, I’ve lived long enough to know that though, when I travel in different parts of the world, I get such marvelous love and hospitality from people from whom– to whom I can give very little in terms of hospitality, when a few– the fewer than that come– come to this land, they are a whole people, you know, take care of me and– and– and show me this love. And– And when– And this– and this to me is a great honor. And when I get that honor, I never forget, and I don’t forget here or there, that it is not really me, just me, by any means. And that if it were not for my wife, I– I don’t know where I’d be. I uh, I don’t– I sp– I said last night that I thought the most important thing in life was the ability to love, and to be loved, but I will never know, and I don’t say this uh, with, you know, I’m not trying to be man– this is not– I’m trying to say what I– just what I think–
Kahn: I do not know, and I never will know, to love in the way she loves, that’s all. And it’s true, I know how to work. It’s true, I know how to get certain things done.
Kahn: And it is true, I love man and woman throughout the world, more than anything in the universe that I know.
Kahn: That’s– that’s the core of my love.
Kahn: But you also have to know how to love your own family, and people close to you, and– and everyone. And, Riett [Harriet] has something that I– I just know I don’t have, that’s all.
Kahn: Uh, and it’s very often, you know, I don’t know whether you’ll agree with me, but I have long held to the view, ever since I read Shakespeare, or began reading Shakespeare, I never stopped, but I, all– but I– I came to know, quite as a young man, and even before I got educated in terms of life uh, and politics and economics or anything like that, I came to know that women, at this point at least in– in– in history and in society up until now, have been superior to men. Uh, I know it because they know how to love more. I know it because they are more perceptive and more sensitive. I’m speaking in general– genera– generally, now. I know it because they can bear children. And that in order to bear children, even in the animal, in the lower portions of the animal kingdom, the female has to be tenderer, and has to know more how to take care of other creatures.
Marceline: Well, you know, I think they– I think that’s true. I don’t know whether it’s–
Kahn: It’s not always, but it’s– but it’s ninety percent of the time.
Marceline: No, but I think what happens is, that by the very fact that they do bear the children, they’re put in a position of having to– to care on a one-to-one relationship, you know what I’m saying. But this can also –
Kahn: In the capitalist world.
Marceline: No. What?
Kahn and Marceline talk over each other, unintelligible
Kahn: Oh, what you mean is biologically– biologically.
Marceline: Yeah, and– and they’re put in a position where they must be responsible for the children and–
Kahn: Well, children can’t live otherwise.
Marceline: That– that’s exactly right.
Kahn: If you take in the animal kingdom, the– the– the– the male uh, does the hunting.
Marceline: Yeah, that’s true. But, you know, I think it’s– I think there has to be the two kinds of love, and I– and I– I do know that for you– people like you, and Jim, uh, to be able to reach out to the world, sometimes you have to become detached from the pain of loving personally. You know what I’m saying.
Kahn: I think that’s true. I think that’s probably true.
Marceline: In order to accomplish what you must accomplish.
Kahn: Well, you do have to sacrifice certain things, but I know, I can only speak from my life, Marcy, and– and I have no right to speak for others.
Kahn: But I’ve seen many great geniuses, uh, and I’ve known a number, quite a few who were really great geniuses, I mean, whether it be a Pablo (stumbles over words) Picasso or a (unintelligible name, sounds like “Rocco Kend”) or a Paul Robeson.
Kahn: And I have seen that they became great geniuses and often– and– and they gave the world great beauty and– and often, whether it was a musician, or whatever it was, they were so obsessed with the– with the– with the creation of beauty, or with what they, with their own work, that sometimes– and I know in my life, and I’m not a genius, but I know in my life, that I was so obsessed with my work, writing, and working for peace, or working against fascism when I was younger all the time–
Marceline: Yeah, yes.
Kahn: And I knew, you see, I had the excuse of knowing how right, what I was doing was–
Kahn: –that I neglected my own sons and my wife more than I should have.
Woman: Excuse me, is it possible I can interrupt this call, uh– call, Mrs. Jones, there’s an emergency.
Kahn: Who is this for?
Marceline: It’s for me I guess, Dr. Kahn.
Woman: For Mrs. Jones, I– I–
Kahn: Okay, because I have gotten several emergency–
(Call cuts off)
Mike Prokes: We’d be willing to have, uh, Hector possibly be released on probation, come into our program. We do a lot of this type of work, uh, here.
Joanne Brown: Have you had anybody in a murder case?
Prokes: Uh, yeah.
Brown: You have!
Brown: How many?
Prokes: Oh, well, I don’t know the exact number, I’m not sure it’s that many but uh, what we would– the only thing we would do– would be able to do with Hector is to uh– and I don’t even know if this is possible, but uh, we would definitely want to send him to the uh– our agricultural mission in South America, where we have a farm on several thousand acres and it’s in the middle of a remote region of the– a jungle. And uh, the chances for rehabilitation, you know, are– are the best there. In fact, we’ve sent many problem cases and– For example–
Brown: What part of Latin America?
Prokes: Uh, Guyana.
Brown: Hm. French?
Prokes: Uh– No, it was British, it’s now independent.
Prokes: And, uh, our success there has been tremendous. In fact, uh, all the kids that we’ve sent have uh– Well, they don’t want to come back, there’s been no recidivism yet.
Brown: Hmmm. Okay, uh– In terms of whatever program you think you can offer Hector, uh, it’s gonna– it’s gonna involve a PR job, not just in terms of Hector personally, but in terms of your program in general, I’m sure you’re aware of that.
Prokes: It– Say that again please?
Brown: It’s going to involve a PR job to convince the– to convince the court that it’s a– sort of a legitimate as well as– as a responsible and effective operation.
Prokes: Yeah, right.
Brown: Like I have no questions myself, personally. But I can only make these representations from what I’ve heard and what I’ve read as opposed to any personal experience so, as I’ve suggested to Mrs. Corosko [phonetic], I would suggest that– that you write out uh, supported by some sort of, you know, whatever brochures, pamphlets, information, statistics you have, some sort of program, which is your proposal for what to do with Hector. And I can submit that to the court. Uh, I can’t– uh, I can’t at this time give you any sort of in– indication of how I think it’s gonna go. I would imagine that since he’s a Youth Authority parolee, the Youth Authority would also have to make the agreement to let him go. Okay. So, the first hurdle would be the court and the second hurdle would be the Youth Authority, uh, which doesn’t mean that they would require any additional information but that, but that– putting the– sort of the package together would be something that would be used to both.
Brown: ‘Kay? And I just suggest you write out sort of what you think uh, would be appropriate for him, what you think you can offer, uh, sort of uh, the successes that you’ve had with the project in Guyana before, and uh, send that to me and I will see what I can do with the judge.
Prokes: Okay, so send everything to you and you will take it from there.
Brown: Yeah, uh-huh. And it may– it may involve a court appearance at some point, but I will arrange it with you if that’s– if that’s in fact the case.
Prokes: Okay, what sort of time element are we working with?
Brown: Uh, a couple weeks.
Prokes: Okay, so you meet within a couple weeks.
Brown: Mm-hmm [Yes].
Brown: By the twenty-ninth.
Prokes: What uh– I’ll send it to you, Joanne Brown.
Prokes: And uh, address?
Brown: That would be the County Public Defender’s Office. Mm-hmm.
Prokes: (under breath) –County–
(Call cuts off).
Donetter Lane: Uh, with uh, uh, with some– uh, let’s see, with– with some kind of payback.
Lane: Uh, and the payback was the– that they send full amount.
Lane: Okay. Now, uh, of course I hit the ceiling in the meeting. And uh, and I told him, I said that’s a lie. The [Peoples] Forum was out before he got named to the commission.
Prokes: Mm-hmm [Yes].
Lane: That’s strictly a church uh, venture.
Lane: It’s not a political venture.
Lane: But that’s the– the kind of uh, things that I’m, you know, getting, you know, and–
Prokes: Well, how did they say it supports [George] Moscone, the Forum?
Lane: Well, they, they’re sayin’ that, you know, Moscone uh, appointed certain uh, people, radicals and community folk, and you know, Jim Jones was one of them. So I said, what do you mean radical? And uh– And so they didn’t have uh, no answer, ya know, and– and I told them I was uh, very much aware of the fact that everybody who uh, uh, was trying to do anything as far as uh, human needs, uh, was labeled as a communist, or they was labeled as radicals.
Prokes: Yeah, yeah.
Lane: Okay, okay. Uh– and I joined them to become a radical uh, on behalf of all mankind.
Lane: Okay. Uh, but I thought I dropped that in the thing because you– there’s a pressure on things may be coming from uh, folks who are indoctrinated as such, you know, understand.
Prokes: Yeah, that doesn’t mean they make sense though.
Lane: No, no, it doesn’t make sense, but I’m sayin’.
Prokes: The paper didn’t even– I don’t know whether it mentioned Moscone (unintelligible word) even.
Lane: Yeah, right, right, right, but I’m just sayin’, this has been happenin’, they jumped on him too.
Lane: And uh, and I told him, that, you know, I– I– I just told him, I don’t understand where your– where your head is and where your heart is.
Prokes: Was this a church meeting?
Lane: No, baby, it wasn’t a church meeting, it was a political meeting.
Lane: And uh– and I– I stood up to defend those persons I know, and I told Mom I’m been to community and I’m workin’, and I know what goes down, ya know.
Prokes: Yeah, yeah.
Lane: And uh, that all they represented was just plain ignorance.
Lane: About– and– and a lack of involvement, because if you involved, you know about these kind of things, you see.
Prokes: Well, that’s crazy.
Lane: Yeah, yeah, yeah, but– but that’s the kind of thing that we uh, we’ve been gittin’, you know. Uh, it’s– it’s– it’s really somethin’, but I’m gonna take care of them.
Prokes: Is there anything else along those lines?
Prokes: Is there anything else? They say anything else?
Lane: No, no, that was– that was the– the whole thing, you know.
Prokes: Gist of it, huh?
Lane: That was the gist of it. But uh, the fact that Jim Jones came up, uh, you know, and uh– and I said, he’s in a whole different ball game. Uh, not– it’s not a political thing. It’s all in another ball game.
Lane: And uh, I think the whole mystery of it is, is that uh– at least I know the mystery of it is that uh, when you try– like I told you, you don’t– you don’t– you expect this.
Lane: If you understand the teachings of Christ, uh, you– you know, you– you– you– you can be, you anchored.
Lane: And what the wind that blows and everything else, that’s– that’s– that’s gonna be very common to you, but you can stand it. You see what I’m sayin’?
Lane: But you gonna git it.
Lane: And it uh–
Prokes: Well, we’re getting’ it. (Laughs) We’re getting it.
Lane: Yup, yeah, I’m– I’m sure, I’m sure.
Prokes: We are getting it.
Lane: And uh, uh– and it’s most unfortunate, you know, but this is what happens and then I said, that I– I raised the question, I said, this is why good people refuse to come forward, you know, uh, uh, (unintelligible phrase) I just say hell, man, man, look, you know what you all doin’, you sittin’ up here, uh, not even knowing what the real issues are all about, and I have a community, what the community is sayin’ when they want uh, supervisors from uh, areas, and I said I’m not sure that’s gonna be the answer to our problem, because I do know a couple things will happen.
Lane: Uh, and I don’t want to see it happen again, but this is what happened with EOC and Model Citizen, all the rest of ‘em, is that we– they bought off black folks.
Lane: And– and the voice and everything else uh, uh, uh, uh, was bought off, you see, and– and– and– and, and we gotta get– we got to raise up a whole new generation who can say no, we don’t want the money.
Prokes: That’s right.
Lane: We don’t want the money.
Prokes: That’s right.
Lane: Because we don’t want the money. You can have your money. You can’t buy me. You see. And– and in that way, you got a– you– you can be a power bloc, but if you don’t have that kinda thing goin’ for ya, then you ain’t got– Now what is happenin’ at Peoples Temple, now I don’t know what goes all on at Peoples Temple, you see what I’m sayin’. I’m– I’m an outsider lookin’ in.
Lane: But I tell ya, like I told Jim, I said, Jim, I don’t know what you’re doin’ to the people. But they’re there. Uh, some people say– sayin’ you’re rippin’ ’em off. Uh, I say some are sayin’ that you– you uh, cater to the poor and you– you uh, uh, uh, takin’ their property, and everything else, that– I heard a whole lot of lies. Now I said, even during the Martin Luther King thing, I had people call me up and say uh, uh, what up– what you– you– with this Jim Jones thing. I said, let me– I said, hold it, wait a minute. This here whole thing with Jim Jones, I said people are giving Jim Jones money is because we as a church failed to meet their needs, and they’re giving to the institution that will meet their needs.
Prokes: That’s where it’s at.
Lane: That’s where it’s at. And– and– and I say– and all I’m sayin’ to you then, is instead of fightin’ it, you ought to join ‘em. You see. Uh– And you– you either do the same thing, or– or shut up. And I said, when I feel– feel like I know some blacks in the city that have– that have had property and a lot of wealth, too, and it’s going back to the state. And I said, if somebody at the church was on its J-O-B, you could have gotten to those people, and said, you– we will build a monument for you, if you support a program, that will train your people to service. And I mean, I said, these are the kind of things I’m sayin’ that has to be– there are some human needs to be taken care of. It’d be nice to know that I left a memorial in order for this to be continued.
Prokes: We have to keep the– the resources within the church, and– so that we can guarantee that every senior citizen does have a comfortable bed–
Lane: Well, see, I’m– I’m worried about that, you see, because see, I’m sayin’, (unintelligible word) as things go on right now, this is what I was sayin’ to this group yesterday, the property is gone up sixty- and eighty thousand dollars, a hundred thousand dollars, right here in my neighborhood. Okay? Now, uh, when they re-assess the value of property, that means we’re going to pay more taxes. And I’m thinking about twenty years from now, I’ll be a senior citizen.
Lane: Uh, what can I live off of? I mean, will I be able– will I be able to support this system. Where will I be? Where’s my security? I don’t have any.
Lane: There’s no guarantee for me.
Lane: You ought to deal with my guarantees, when I– when I have worked and built the system, I ought to be able– to be able to make some withdrawals from that system when I get to the point I can no longer make the, make the uh–
End of Side 1
Lane: And they sittin’ up there, lonely, no food, because the fixed income they have is not enough for them to survive. I know what I’m talkin’ about.
Prokes: I know what you’re talkin’ about.
Lane: I know what I’m talkin’ about, you see what I’m sayin’? And I’m sayin’, we– ain’t nobody safe today. Nobody safe today! You see what I’m saying? Nobody.
Prokes: That’s the truth. That’s the truth.
Lane: I don’t care how– You may be up today, but tomorrow, you be down, and if you don’t deal with it today, then tomorrow you will not be secure. That’s what I’ve been saying.
Prokes: Well, people don’t want to believe– they absolutely (unintelligible under Lane)
Lane: (cuts in) Oh, it’s comin’. I told CCC, uh, like I said, I, I know my God, he speaks to us, and he givin’ us all kind of chances.
Prokes: (unintelligible word) warning.
Lane: To get the house in order, and he– we refuse to get it in order.
Lane: We rather sit down and moan and cry about the thing. And I say, I said, uh, this is what it’s all about. We’d rather sit down and cry and attack the individual, rather than gittin’ in there and tackling the problem. We ain’t gone have no resources, we (unintelligible word) if we don’t move and move fast, and I told ‘em yesterday, I said what’s happenin’ in America is happenin’ all over the world, you see?
Prokes: That’s right.
Lane: It’s a part of a– uh– uh– universal scene. See, and we just can’t be all just– just carrying for our own. I’m sayin’ to the black community, hey, we don’t– we shouldn’t have to be worryin’ about, uh, uh, uh, job employment either. Because we got our young people, (unintelligible word)– but– but uh, what is happenin’ is, that we have been programed to deal with our culture. And the resources, the raw resources in Africa are (unintelligible word)– Oh, hold on just a minute, Mike.
(Lane sets the phone down several moments, then returns).
Lane: The ministry is God. And, and, uh, again, I came to the defense of the Temple in this respect. But uh, the letters came to us about attendin’ the church. Okay. To me, that’s a ministry that I wish our church had. But that’s somethin’ somebody has to take on and do. Okay, and, and our people, not just orientated at that. But what the world needs now is love, sweet love, and we don’t know what love is.
Prokes: No, we don’t.
Lane: That’s what it’s all about. And when we get it, we are frightened. And we are frightened. So, I’m sayin’ that you all keep goin’ and– and tell Jim that, rest and take it easy, because the man may be tryin’ to give him a message.
Prokes: (Chuckles) I think you’re right.
Lane: And– and uh, yeah, tryin’ to give him a message. Uh, because it– it– if he’s not, uh, you know, if he doesn’t have things together, and if anything happened to him, see, that would be all somebody wants to happen. So it– That’s what I said to Marvin [Chandler, Executive Minister, San Francisco Council of Churches]. Uh, sometimes he said pause for station identification. (unintelligible word under Prokes) And that’s all he is telling me, pause for station identification.
Prokes: Well, uh, thank you for –
Prokes: Asking about Jim. Right now, he is– is still on the mission. We bought him a ticket and put him on the plane, insisted that he goes, the doctor said that he had to go. And uh, he’s– we’re going to try to keep him there a while because, here it’s just pressure all the time, around the clock, and uh–
Lane: And there’s no need for it. See, they uh– This group I was with yesterday, they attacked the uh– the– the other thing they was attacking was the redevelopment and– and the housing. So uh, I asked him, I said, well, what have you done in those areas? Okay. What– what is– what is the trend in the country right now. It’s not just San Francisco in redevelopment, they have destroyed neighborhoods, they destroyed our home in Atlanta, and we had been there seventy years in that house. Four generations have come through that house, our home in Atlanta, but they destroyed it. Uh– they bought it all up and re-zoned and– and I was raised out there where Atlanta ballpark is, that’s where– that’s the neighborhood I was raised up in. And I said they destroyed it, and it had a great impact on my mother, because that’s where our roots were.
Prokes: Right, right.
Lane: And they– they uprooted those roots, you see. But you see, when the people were plannin’, they didn’t think about the human dynamics involved in redevelopment. And uprootin’ people’s roots, and what are you replacin’ ‘em with?
Lane: And I don’t care about you uprootin’ and re– and re-zonin’ and re, whatever you want to do. But just tell me what you gonna replace ’em with.
Lane: And that’s the question. We don’t have people on commissions and things, who are dealing with replacement for all that we are displacing.
Prokes: That’s right.
Lane: Okay, and– and– and it becomes a real, real problem. But I’m sayin’ the Christian community ought to be addressing itself to that kind of stuff, you see what I’m sayin’. Where you gonna put ‘em? Where are the roots gonna be? You see? And– and– uh, uh, uh, uh, and I– I– I dealt with the Hunter’s Point yesterday, because Hunter’s– Hunter’s Point is– is dynamite.
Lane: We got people out there scared to death to open their mouths.
Prokes: I know.
Lane: Okay? And I said to them, I don’t want this, that we– we– I don’t want us to have a ward system like uh, Chicago, where you just buy folks off.
Lane: Okay, I’m afraid of that kind of election, you see what I’m sayin’, that kind of a politics here in this city. But I’m also concerned about people who will get in there and be insensitive to the human needs of the city, you see.
Lane: ‘Cause we won’t survive as a people, see? But anyway, this is where we are, so I just called to tell you, we’re all in there together.
Prokes: Right. That’s –
Lane: (cuts in) Uh– uh– but– but we gonna have to just gonna have to hang on in there, and each one of us has our own ministry, and we do what we can with what we have, and somewhere along the line, I told Marvin, when we come back, what we need to do, I mean for Martin Luther King thing, I was thinking about, maybe we ought to have a retreat–
Lane: –with folks who are involved in doing things in the religious community, or in the community, period.
Lane: Have a retreat, and do something different for a renewal of the human spirit, because that’s what I was trying to do this last time, and everything got in the way, you see what I mean? But my whole thing was renewal of the human spirit, uh– uh– uh– so we can nurture each other, because the battle is on.
Prokes: It is on.
Lane: And just the be– and it’s just begun, really.
Prokes: Well, I’m gonna tell you something, uh, and this is uh, between you and me.
Lane: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Prokes: I think there’s a chance that uh, Jim will have to resign from that, the Housing Authority.
Lane: Right, right.
Prokes: And the reason is, that uh– well, one may be a health factor. Right now, he’s going through testing.
Prokes: The doctors have some concern, but they– they feel that if he can change his schedule, there’ll be no major problem. And, of course, the– the Housing– he has tenants calling them all the time, he meets with them, it’s– it’s more time than he can afford.
Lane: Right, and that’s how come–
Prokes: That’s why he didn’t take the first post when it was offered by the mayor, but, uh, also he’s just been too, uh, out front. I mean, he took on his fellow commissioners for traveling first class to these, uh, housing commission meetings across the country, and wasting money, and when you do that, you know you make enemies. It’s hard to work with them after that.
Lane: Right, that’s right.
Prokes: And somebody has to be– just has to be willing to make compromises,
Lane: Right, right.
Prokes: And– and Jim is just too, you know– he comes on– when he sees something, he calls the shots.
Lane: Right, right, right.
Prokes: And uh, they, you know, so it’s uh–
Lane: Well, I– I can appreciate where he’s coming from, because I was– I was– I met with a group of women uh, last night that I’m– that I’m trying to organize and get them to, to uh, really commit their lives to something. And uh, I was talking to them about the same thing, uh, that one of the reasons why we uh– Christiandom is in the mess it is in now too, is because uh, uh, uh, we have built kingdoms.
Lane: And– and uh, uh– and we have built– we have our own gods.
Prokes: Oh yeah.
Lane: Okay, and– and– we have our own gods. And– and– and they become the thing. That’s why I, even with the council, I have kept a low profile, because I don’t want to be idolized, that unless you’re ready to make a commitment and put your life on the line, because that’s the way I am, see what I’m sayin’?
Lane: And I keep the low profile in order to keep out of the– the politics of (unintelligible word) some things, you see what I’m sayin’?
Lane: Because I want to do the work and get that kind of satisfaction, ‘cause there ain’t no joy like that joy.
Lane: Okay, and I want to keep it that way. But, in the same time– and I’m– and I’m sayin’– and I’m sayin’ it to my people, we don’t– we don’t need to go in– in the paper all the time, but we need to let people know that we are doin’things. But that when we start idolizing individuals, then it becomes, the individual that is really under attack, that the individual becomes the– the target. You see what I’m sayin’?
Lane: And– and– and somehow or another, we’re gonna have to find some other way to do it, rather than put our men out there to be killed, because people really are– uh, uh, uh, you get (unintelligible word)– and I think, just like now, you know, you all have been uh– uh– supplyin’ the food, ‘cause they told me yesterday when I went down there, they didn’t let me go up but I got a chance to talk to them, the leaders.
Lane: And I said to them, great. Uh, that’s where it is. The [Black] Panthers are doing their thing. Great. Just go on and do it.
Lane: And– And– And stay out of media, ‘cause media will kill ya.
Prokes: Yup, that’s–
Lane: That’s– That’s where– That’s where the problem is.
Prokes: I went down there, and I wish everybody was done, you know, they wanted a– a statement, then, fine, but I– I figured they’d get what they need by then, and mine would only be repetitive.
Lane: Right, right, and so I– I– I told ‘em, I says, well, I– I might– I didn’t come here uh, just to make no– no speech, I came here to find out what the needs were.
Prokes: Right. That’s the objection I have, see, ‘cause people jump on these things and use it to advance their own organization. And we’ve been behind this, and we– we– we haven’t even been in the news, which makes me glad, for one.
Lane: Right, right, right, but you– but that’s right. But then you see, then you can go on and do it, and they’ll know who it is and you can build up your force that way. You see what I mean?
Lane: And you don’t give your enemies no– no– no target. That’s the whole thing. You don’t give them no target, you see.
Prokes: That’s right, that’s right.
Lane: And I– so I– I went in yesterday and I told ‘em, I says, uh, there’re couple groups who want to give uh, money and they– there– I got some people who want to give some food. And I says but I don’t– I don’t want no publicity behind it. And we just want to give it and do it and forget it. I said, what we all gonna have to learn to do survive in this kind of situation is to go underground.
(Phone call cuts off)
Ruby: –able to attend the people’s church to speak when he does come.
Ruby: They get to say he’s– let’s see, I think he’s [likely Tim Stoen] going to be here on– they’ll be arriving on May the thirtieth, and will leave for London on June the third.
Ruby: June the fourth. I’m sorry, the evening of June the fourth.
Prokes: Okay, well that’s– that’s fine, that this meeting will take place, I mean, sort of, uh, uh, I mean.
Ruby: At the end– At the end– You saying that’s fine, they– he won’t be there, but uh, Reverend Jim Jones would still like to meet with him if possible.
Prokes: Right. Not– not here, necessarily, but, you know, if he meets him before then–
Ruby: Yeah– I mean on the twenty-ninth in Grenada.
Prokes: Yeah, or, shortly thereafter.
Ruby: Yeah, okay, well, let me know.
Ruby: If you will.
Prokes: All right.
Ruby: All right, take care.
Prokes: Thanks so much, Ruby, ‘preciate your help.
Woman: –young man, my son, he’s nineteen years old, and in City Prison. And I couldn’t get him out on R-O – OR [own recognizance] and they wouldn’t let it ‘cause he’d been in some stuff before. He’d been in Youth Authority before, and he was out on parole. Now when they picked him up, he had not done anything, he– they picked him up, they said, on a traffic warrant. And also, I have another son who had found some foreign money, and he had traded it in, (unintelligible word).
Woman: –and he was with him, and they booked him. They let him out, but they kept him, they said they wasn’t going to let him out because he had been into, uh, trouble before.
Woman: Uh, was wondering if– if uh, the– could do anything about getting him out, uh, on OR or bail, I don’t have two hundred dollars to bail him out with.
Woman: Uh, so while– you know, till he goes to trial. He’s not gonna go anyplace.
Prokes: Okay, uh–
(Call cuts off)
Marie Jackson: If (unintelligible phrase), you know.
Jackson: And all of that, I– I just wanted to, sort of explain it to Jim.
Marceline: Well, uh, I can’t tell you how much I appreciate your letting us know about it. Uh, you know, Marie, if– if they write the truth about us, there’s nobody that has really given his life for justice, uh, that Jim– as Jim has.
Jackson: Yeah well, I know that.
Marceline: And (sighs) but, you know he keeps fighting a system that is so fascistic and so full of racism and hate.
Jackson: Mm-hmm [Yes].
Marceline: And naturally, he’s declared himself an enemy of the people that keep food and clothing from the poor.
Jackson: Yeah, right.
Marceline: And so there– they really try to do things to hurt him.
Jackson: Yeah, I know it, and– and– and this is the second time they came– They called me about two or three years ago, I think I told Jim about that. And uh, I– I– just that somebody that, people that didn’t belong there or something– and I think it’s because he’s mentioned, uh, I think they’re related to Harry Williams, whoever these people are.
Marceline: Oh, some relatives of Harry Williams.
Jackson: Or something, and– and I don’t even, we don’t even know them, you know. I– I can remember Harry Williams.
Marceline: Yeah, well, Harry is, you know, still a part of our church.
Jackson: Yeah, I know it.
Marceline: So uh–
Jackson: I know it. But if some of his relatives or somebody that told this man, you know.
Marceline: That you’d been a part of the church.
Jackson: Yeah, and– and– and–
Marceline: Did he say what paper he was writing for?
Jackson: No, ‘cause we didn’t even get anything done, ‘cause, you see, I didn’t want to hear anything I didn’t want to go– (unintelligible under Marceline)
Marceline: Yeah, okay. And you think his name was Marshall [Kilduff].
Marceline: Because we certainly, you know– Well, you were around when uh–
Marceline: –when [Lester] Kinsolving.
Jackson: –Kinsolving. Right. Right.
Marceline: Yes. And uh, anything that we can keep from happening, we certainly want to keep it from happening.
Jackson: Right, well– well, this why I wanted to, you know, tell you about it and– and, you know, in confidence (unintelligible phrase) in confidence, and that sort of thing.
Marceline: Yes, yes, I–
Jackson: I don’t want anybody to know about it.
Marceline: Well, you can be sure it’ll be kept between Jim and I.
Jackson: Yeah, yeah, you because it’s uh– if it’s some of Harold Williams’ relatives.
Jackson: Or something, uh– uh– uh– somebody, I don’t know.
Marceline: Okay, well, we’ll certainly– well, maybe Harry can enlighten us on this thing.
Jackson: Yeah, probably, he– he can.
Marceline: Yeah, well, can you– can you remember anything that this reporter was trying to find out from you? Uh, Marie–
Jackson: Let’s see. Well, he was asking us, uh, let’s see, why did we (unintelligible) I told him that I was kind of sick (unintelligible word), whatever, and I was working and I couldn’t take too much time off from work, and the ride, you know, we had to go down to Redwood Valley, for–
Marceline: Yeah, that was before we really had much going on here.
Jackson: Yeah, well, this is what I’m saying, you see.
Marceline: Yes, mm-hmm.
Jackson: So– But I was just giving him any kind of excuse, I wouldn’t tell him, ya know. And he wanted to know how– how was the service and this– (unintelligible). That’s right. He’s even been to– to some of Jim’s services too, up here.
Marceline: Oh, he has.
Jackson: That’s right.
Jackson: He’s been up here, and I think he went down, I don’t know whether he– I– I don’t know if he’s been in the Valley or not, but I know he’s been there two or three times.
Marceline: I’m sure Jim will probably know right away who the person is.
Jackson: Yeah, and he said what do you think about, does he (unintelligible) and my sister happen to be. I said, well, uh, I don’t know anybody else think about it, but I know I had him wrong (unintelligible phrase). But I know I don’t have anymore.
Jackson: And uh– Oh, he said– asked me uh, how Jim could get uh, so many buses, I don’t know how many buses Jim has now.
Marceline: Well, I– I’ve kind of lost track myself, (laughs) I think it’s twelve or thirteen or something like that.
Jackson: Yeah, that’s what I think that’s what he said. And he knew he had a plane. And uh, how did he get all of this money? And– oh, all kind of questions and (unintelligible word) told him, you know we wasn’t talking uh, about Jim said I heard that (unintelligible). He’s still very close. And uh, he said I hear that you all have (unintelligible sentences)
Jackson: And he was just– he just wanted information (unintelligible sentences). And uh, we told him no, you know, we told him no. You know, just askin’ us all kinds of questions, and I– I just wanted Jim to know about it.
Marceline: Yeah, well I can’t tell you, Marie, how much uh, I appreciate it, and I know Jim will appreciate your and Cleveland [Jackson] standing up for him and then letting us know about it.
Jackson: Yeah, I just wanted to– ‘cause I always do that for Jim, you know.
Jackson: I don’t let people talk about him, even though I’m not there, like I– (unintelligible under Marceline)
Marceline: I know, we– we know well that you’re– you’re with us in spirit.
Marceline: So, and uh, uh, it’s so important that we stick together, because children’s lives and freedom depend upon us sticking together.
Jackson: Right. Sticking together. And that’s why I thought, I– I just wanted to let him know.
Marceline: I really appreciate your letting me know and I’ll let him know. He’ll– as soon as he comes out from the interior, he’ll be calling me. He’ll be back relatively soon.
Jackson: Yeah, right.
Marceline: And I just didn’t think I should wait till he got back to make some contact with you.
Jackson: Yeah, right. Well– well, I’m glad uh, you called me, he said that uh, he was gonna keep bothering us, you know, (unintelligible sentences) why we won’t talk and, oh all kind of things. He’s very persistent.
Marceline: Sounds like he really has a vested interest in hurting Jim Jones.
Jackson: Yes, he has.
Marceline: Well, I really appreciate talking to you, Marie.
Jackson: Okay, then– and I just wanted to uh, let you know uh. And tell Jim (unintelligible) I’m gonna try to find out. (unintelligible)
Marceline: Yeah, if– if you could find out, uh–
Jackson: I don’t know whether it’d do any good, but (unintelligible)
Marceline: Mm-hmm. Uh, how– one of the things I’d like to know, how did he say he would keep bothering you, uh, Marie?
Jackson: Because he lied and said– I asked him how he’d get uh, our address and all this kind of stuff, and he said uh, I got your number, your telephone number out of the telephone book. I said well, that’s a lie, because we are not listed. He said, you know, uh, we can get anybody’s number that we want to, saying uh, you know I know where you live now, and– and I’ll keep bothering you, until sooner or later you’re gonna tell us what we want to know.
Marceline: Hmmm. Well, really persistent.
Jackson: Yeah, very persistent.
Marceline: Well, if– if, you know– if he comes around anymore, will you let us know again?
Jackson: I will.
Marceline: The way you did it is fine with Leona [Collier].
Jackson: Yeah, right.
Marceline: Okay, because sometimes it’s kind of hard to get through the church.
Jackson: Oh, I know it.
Marceline: And uh, give my love and Jim’s love to Cleveland and everybody there.
Jackson: Yeah, I sure will.
Marceline: Okay, it’s good to talk to you.
Jackson: Yeah, it’s good to talk to you too, Marcy.
Marceline: You ought to see my baby Jim.
Jackson: Oh, I’ll bet he’s bigger than–
Marceline: He’s six-foot-four.
Jackson: Oh, good Lord. I’ll bet he’s beautiful.
Marceline: He’ll always be my little baby.
Jackson: I’m telling you, little brown baby, I never will forget.
Marceline: Oh, I love him.
Jackson: He’s so beautiful, little brown baby. He’s a big brown baby now.
Marceline: He certainly is, and he’s very much identified with the black cause, you know.
Jackson: No doubt. I can imagine he is.
Jackson: So I’m gonna come by one Sunday, you know, to the service, uh, one Sunday.
Marceline: Oh. I’d– I’d love to have you do it.
Marceline: And uh, thank you so much.
Jackson: Well, you’re quite welcome. Just let Jim know that nobody else– ‘Cause, see, some of the members, you know, as always, they’ll talk and say things, you know what I mean.
Marceline: That’s right. Okay, uh, it’s between you and Cleveland and– and Jim and I.
Jackson: Yeah, right.
Jackson: All right, then.
Marceline: Thank you so much.
Jackson: You’re welcome.