Q1022 Transcript

If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.

To return to the Tape Index, click here. To listen to MP3, click here.
To read the Tape Summary, click here. To read the Annotated Transcript, click here.

(Note: This tape was transcribed by Don Beck. The editors gratefully acknowledge his invaluable assistance.)

Side 1

(High shriek. Fading. Technical noises)

Rick Cordell: (Unintelligible beginning) -behind the pool. (Pause) (Tape edit) We will start, and there’ll be no talking.

(Tape distortion)

Jones: –(Unintelligible beginning) my prophesy in ten days. And then they said that he could not be restored, that he would have to be a cripple, and I said otherwise. And thus far he is progressing, I think they said a hundred times faster than they expected him.

Congregation: (Applause)

Jones: Peace, peace. This is from the remaining leaders of the Eight [the Eight Revolutionaries] that left.

To My uh, Family:

I never wanted to leave my Father nor my family. I made a mistake. Now that I can see the mistake, I would like to come home, but I have some work that’s not done. After we left, we ran out of money and we were down to peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for all means- for- for all meals. When all looked dire and hopeless, a letter from Father came with money for food. Even when his children leave and make mistakes, he cares. Don’t leave him, fors- forsake- Don’t leave or forsake him, for he will never leave or forsake you. He will be with you always.

Thank you, Father. John Biddulph.

Congregation: (Applause)

Jones: Peace. Peace. Peace.

Dear Family: This is just a short note from me to let you know that life outside of Peoples Temple is hell. Life away from our Father is unbearable. The eight of us left with good intentions, we thought, with no treasonous thoughts, with a hope that we could benefit our family away, but we have all come to the realization, and please let this become embedded in your minds, that you cannot – I say cannot – bypass the (Pause) theocratic- it’s another word he’d got for it- two initials. I think some of you know what I mean. You cannot bypass the office, no matter how righteous or helpful you think your plans may be. We all miss you, and you never realize how helpful and familiar a family- a friendly face can be until you’ve gone. We all realize our mistake and hope that others can learn from this. All must realize that in this time of much trouble and oppression that the only safe place is with Father, that nothing can be accomplished without Father. I want everyone to realize that life out here is no game. Every day we face the possibility of death. Every day we face a harsh and cruel racist society. Every day the realization of our mistake grows stronger in our minds.

Love, and lo- love- love to all. Wayne Pietila.

Congregation: (Applause)

Jones: They say they speak for all. We will remain to see. But at least these are the two uh, principal leaders, and we are grateful that they came and met with many of us on Monday night, perhaps seventy or so of us on Monday night. We’re grateful that they uh- they have come to their senses. And indeed it was good they came, as I instructed, because one of them was about to be prosecuted on wrong charges. When you leave a job or leave the protection of Father, all your enemies come out against you. Without a family there is nothing without the body. Without the office, there is nothing you can do to protect yourself. As you know, they went out with some great hostility, but outside there, the one who had owned- held a great position here in this town was accused. Others moved in like birds of prey. He didn’t do anything wrong in his job. He didn’t take any furniture or any money. But others evidently stole while he was gone or manipulated books or the businessman owner wanted to look good and tried to stick him with several thousands of dollars of uh, of uh, st- actually stealing furniture. And if it hadn’t been for me sending and demanding that he came – and he did come – and demanding that he go into the office with my people, he would’ve been probably right now in jail, but fortunately he listened, and it pays to listen. Now that is the totality of the rebels that went out. And I would think all of you would profit by the error of their way, where they say it’s hell. Don’t leave Father. If anyone wants to read these, we will make copies so that you can read them.

Now at this time I wish that we all- (Clears throat) Can we not provide some of our precious ones with seats back there? Uh- More can be done, I- I think, for young people to get up around the altar around the uh, chair here, we’re more than happy to have you so that some- Uh- We’re crowded and so that some can stand. Some that are youthful and then there are some seats right in here, it seems, right in this section. Peace.

Now let us turn in our entire offering at this moment. When I mention a sum, stand to your feet quickly, so that our entire offering comes in.

I have some very good news. Uh- There’re three provices- provinces in Canada that have gone socialistic, and we uh- that can be a stepping stone at least in these dreadful times. Peace.

Take no- Take no satisfaction in the fact that nine of ten tapes or eight of nine [Watergate] tapes have been turned over. One tape has not been, and it’s a ruse to keep further probing into what will turn out to be the most nefarious leadership in the history of- of the world. Prosecutor Cox’s [Watergate Special Prosecutor Archibald Cox] firing was because, like the proverbial hound, he was too close and uh, now we are still on the road to confrontation. It has not been reduced. The fascists in this country would prefer not having to take over. They’ve already taken over the minds of people. So why do they want to bring an army out in the streets if they can avoid it? But it seems that there are a few Americans that have spirit enough to still demand further investigation. Even today the last one of Mr. [Richard] Nixon’s appointees, after he lost two over the weekend, he lost [Deputy Attorney General William] Ruckelshaus, he lost [Attorney General Elliot L.] Richardson, but now this man, what is it? Borg [Solicitor General Robert H. Bork]? (Pause) Hm?- No, the present Attorney- Acting Attorney General. He said he too had thought about f- being uh, leaving the office but that the entire Justice Department of the United States would’ve been destroyed, because people would’ve all left. So he said he will not be compromised, that he will press on to a full investigation, and his underprosecutor [Assistant Attorney General Henry E.] Petersen says he’ll do the same. But still there are forces demanding a special prosecutor. More and more, Mr. Nixon’s being placed in a corner. And I insist that he cannot go in a corner satisfactorily. If he goes in a corner, everyone in this country’s gonna feel it and he’s still being pressed in that corner. There’s unresolved questions about milk industries that gave him several million dollars just after they had asked in December of 1970 that he stop all dairy products from coming into this country from other nations. There’s a question of a million dollar special investment fund set up by him from campaign funds. And they’re not satisfied so they’re continuing to pursue those matters. Impeachment is still being talked. If impeachment comes, Mr. Nixon will not take it, (Pause) nor will he take much more of this being pressured. The orders are still- are now coming for the dismissal of these people from General Haig [White House Chief of Staff Alexander Haig]. You notice him in the n- news. He doesn’t wear a general’s uniform, but you can see the name Haig. He talks much for the president these days. He’s one of the chief generals of the Pentagon, one of the chief generals that are in the army of the United States, in the military of the United States. He is now a personal aide to the president, so we have to get on with this business, because no matter what turns seem to be taken or even temporary encouraging signs, still eventually there has to come a dictatorship in this land or socialism. There is no way that an economy can function without war or dictatorship. Economies based on greed or capitalism cannot function unless they are imposed upon the people by dictatorship. And even then they can only last so long. So at this night, as we move on towards our destiny with some encouraging signs-

Now for instance, the socialist government that was just put into Vancouver Province, the socialist government there guarantees annual income- not welfare, not the degrading experience of a social worker coming into your home and nosing about, even though we have many social workers in this church. It’s a degrading occupation that they’re in. They work because they have to, but it’s degrading. It’s filthy that social workers have to come into people’s homes. They don’t go into Mr. Nixon’s or Mr. Reagan’s [Calif. Gov. Ronald Reagan] home. And he’s on welfare.

Congregation: (Light applause)

Jones: Did you hear what I said?

Congregation: (Louder applause)

Jones: Mr. Reagan, he gets medical care. He’s got a medical card. Mr. Nixon’s got a dental card. He’s gettin’ special benefits. He- He even gets chauffeurs. I don’t know any of my welfare people here that get a chauffeur. I don’t know any of them that get special uh, housing. Well, Mr. Reagan doesn’t have to have a social worker to talk to. Mr. Nixon doesn’t, and I’m looking forward to a day when no one will be degraded to have to talk about their personal life to a welfare worker after they’ve worked all their life.

Congregation: (Applause)

Jones: Well, just that our sister uh, province to the north in Canada, there’s a guaranteed annual [monthly] income to any individual of $209- not welfare, no strings attached, no explanations have to be given. Two hundred and nine is guaranteed a month, $418 to a family- to a couple, and the families can range up to $700. Two hundred and fifty– Two dollars and fifty cents an hour guaranteed wage for even the most primitive restaurant work. We couldn’t even get a- an annual [hourly] wage passed of what was it? Two hundr- $2.25, wasn’t it? People are working in this town for a dollar sixty. You can’t live on $1.60. If it wasn’t for a Temple behind people, there wouldn’t be any way to live, and there’s a many, many blessing. So- Complete free medicine, complete free medicine. Sister Brown had to go through a situation where she burned her foot on the pavement out here, and uh- or she’s had expensive kind of uh, medication to rub on it. All that’s provided. Someone had her take her shoes off one day, which was a unwise thing to do. But she’s had to pay for a little tube five or ten dollars a time. All that’s provided free, and so should it be here. And so we will work for that. And if we cannot get it here, we will go some place where we can get it until America comes to its senses.

Congregation: (Applause)

Jones: And any child who sends their- their- any family who sends their child to nurseries or day care centers get an extra hundred dollars to care for them and transportation and that sort of thing. So many beautiful things even happening in Canada just to the north of us. Even vacations guaranteed. Vacation owned by public enterprises where the people can co- go without cost. This is happening in Canada to the north of us. But we will have to get land there. We will have to get businesses there. We will have to get people situated there. Because it’s very difficult to emigrate there. There is now more people trying to get into Canada than at any hist- point of history. Ten times try more going in than coming out. It used to be ten more times people- ten times more people leaving Canada than coming in. Now it’s just the reverse. Americans are running, but Americans that don’t have jobs or education or money are out of luck.

By the way, I promised you, I’d get your problem stopped, and I got a petition, uh, a man by the name of Fred came and to- and we’re going to interview badly- he was going to put you down badly, but he- it didn’t get in your record, through me.

Congregation: (Applause)

Jones: That’s what you call prophesying, according to your measure of faith. I won’t mention the name, I just point towards them. They have a rest home. But he was going to put it down, a white man that was going to put down things, very, very bad things, he was going to put them down. And I didn’t know how I was going to do it, but I said to them, I said I will take care of it. Didn’t I? I said it I think on the weekend. Well, I want you to know that today, his didn’t even get in the record.

Congregation: (Applause)

Jones: And nobody lifted a finger- nobody lifted a finger to take them out. So don’t get anything. I did it metaphysically. I’d had to do it by energy because my wife’s [Marceline Jones] in such a position, I couldn’t do it any other way. I had to do it supernaturally. But something caused him not to fight it when it was decided not to be put it.

Congregation: (Applause)

Jones: I did some talking, but I didn’t achieve it by talking alone. You might say I hypnotized him with this holy love.

Congregation: (Applause)

Jones: But don’t ever quote that to- to no one and I didn’t mention names, so you don’t quote that so that we can utilize that again and again to save, if we have to. He’s an ex-Catholic priest who thinks he, you know- he- he’s jealous of people who succeed.

Very well. At this time we know what we have to do. We’ve got to get prepared for operation Exodus. If we never exodus? We’ll be happy ’cause we’re certainly gettin’ ready to be taken care of in this valley. ‘Cause we’ll have to. They can’t keep the lid on these wars forever. Sooner or later, Israel’ll break out of her net or the Arabs will and there’ll be a confrontation that’ll be the world of fire, the apocalypse, the burning elements. You’ll see them. So we’re prepared for that. And I think we’re the only prepared people in this land. Everybody else don’t know what’s going on. But we do know what’s going on. That’s something to know. We know what’s going on.

Congregation: (Applause)

Jones: (Voice rises) It’s wonderful to recognize as we have recognized, that heaven must be here, that Christ must be in us, that our hope of glory is in us. It’s wonderful that we have done away with the illusions of heavens that are for tomorrow or gods that are out in space. We don’t want to race out to space. We gonna do something about the human race because our hope of glory is within us.

Congregation: (Applause)

Jones: (Ministerial cadence) And we know what our hope of glory is. You can’t doubt it. We found too much about it, and we know damn well we can’t live without it.

Congregation: (Sustained applause)

Jones: Who art thou? Who art thou, sister, to criticize the one that is God? Who art thou to enter in your mind, sitting over there that you would question the word that I use. Who art thou, the one that raises the dead and causes the blind to see, that causes the people to come out of the wheelchairs. Who art thou that would question God?

Congregation: (Applause)

Jones: I say the same that I have said in every age through every instrument of human or social or revolu- revolutionary or whatever you want to call it. Religious evolution. I’ve said it in the body of Jesus. Same spirit. Same mentality. I say it today. Do the works that I do, then talk. Until you can do the works that I do, shut up!

Congregation: (Applause)

Jones: What could you do about Rick-Rick Purifoy when they said last night, said his finger’s caught in a conveyor. That’s right what they said to me, they called my home, and as I said, very well-meaning, good worker, but it was just a misunderstanding. Said his finger’s caught, they’re going to have to go in out with a knife to cut it off. I said, don’t you think like that. Don’t talk to me in the physical. Talk to me in the metaphysical. And I turned away from the phone, everybody was in the house, I said there’s not going to be any fingers cut off. If you want to, ask everybody that was in that home, and there were several there, several secretaries and every one of my children. Ask them. [I] Said there’s not going to be any finger cut off. But don’t try to reach me physically. And don’t you with your physical mind tell me how to talk.

Congregation: (Applause)

Jones: Until you can prophesy, according to the measure of faith that says to ca- to fine black couple that’ve worked hard to get in business, that I walked down the aisle when I was preaching on Saturday night, (claps hands once for emphasis) I said they won’t be able to do what they have in mind to do, and I had just been so aware and I spoke to Sister [Marceline] Jones, and she said yes, there’s nothing I can do. It’ll be a bad situation. But I said I’m going to do something, and I did it alone, because there was no way she could do it, because we could feed them if they lost their business, but she’d lost her job, then we coulda done nothing, so I had to do it metaphysically. But today – today – no record was put there, and I just prophesied it on Saturday, I think it was. So until you can do the works that I do, keep your mouth off of me

Congregation: (Loud sustained applause)

Jones: Peace. (Unintelligible) Wasn’t any question of ever having to have- cut that boy’s finger off. (Voice calms) But uh- but just hold faith just like I did, that he wasn’t going to lose any hand. ‘Cause I said the moment I heard, uh-uh [No], you’re not going to lose any hand. Got to have that kind of faith in me. Now have faith in me to produce the offerings that we need to get land. Hmm? You can buy the land. You cannot cause people to keep from avoiding their- loose [loss] of their hands or the loss of their eyes, or keep their life in their body. But you can buy land. So you do what you can do, so I can do what I must do. You understand? (Tape edit) That we could get for 400,000 right now. Acres and acres of it. That’d be a stepping stone.

Voice in congregation: (Unintelligible)

Jones: Um-hmm [Yes]. Thank you. You’ll have your, by the fifteenth of next month you’ll try to. Beautiful.

Voice in congregation: (Unintelligible)

(Technical problems) (Tape edit)

Jones: Got to get some people there with professional incomes, and we can guarantee your coming and going- some of you that don’t have incomes.

Voice in congregation: (Unintelligible)

(Tape edit)

Jones: -a poor man from doing dirt to Biddulph, I’ll tell you. Oh, the bat- we’re not through the battle, but we’ll get through the battle. He takes on one of our people, even if they’re one of our wayward children, they better- might as well- they might as well take on (short laugh) a comet, ’cause when you mess with the house of Jones, you’ve got trouble.

Congregation: (Applause)

Jones: Thousand. Last time. I will mention one thousand. Wherever they can for a rainy day, don’t they? Hmm? Mmm. Mmm. They don’t confine all their eggs in one basket.

Voice in congregation: (Unintelligible) -we have a wise Father.

Second voice in congregation: That’s right.

Jones: Hmm. Thank you.

Congregation: (Applause)

Jones: Two hundred. The last time. (Tape distortion) Slated and prognosed- Prognosis to die. She didn’t. (Tape edit) I was up and down these roads, and drivers still not listening to me. I want the reminder due to that fact of people disobedience. No driver is to take his eyes off the road to talk. No drivers allowed to do that, and you people are just as much a leader as that driver. You see that he doesn’t. No driver is to go above that speed that I told. (Pause) That’s the rule. We have avoided accidents, we’ve avoided deaths, when people on two freeways tonight, eleven people killed, crushed, all those trucks and busses crushed. And on Wednesday night, when I warned us to stay late, a whole bus was saved by one minute. Brother Thomas, Mae Spriggs [phonetic] by one minute. A little boy took my word, said, Father protect me, rubbed the picture on him and went to sleep, one minute it happened, and not one of our people were hurt. We ought to think of the goodness in these hours of (Unintelligible word), these hours of giving, we need to think of the goodness.

Congregation: (Applause)

Jones: Hallelujah. Very well. Ten dollars. Let’s see more that’ll give ten. Thank you, my darling. Two hundred by January first. Beauti- (tape edit) Look out and think of different ones of you, and I looked over at Wanda Johnson, thought of her son coming back and opening the doors of communication. And when I look around and think of the miracles that happen, all the miracles, and I looked at Professor Roller’s synopsis of a study of Ireland which are also a part of our great adventure. Where – uh, uh, her hand was arthritic so that this day she probably wouldn’t’ve been able to write, Professor Roller wouldn’t, if it hadn’t been for the miracles that are done here. And I just look out, and that our bass had had a heart attack on the weekend, setting here today doing a work-out all afternoon in the- out there in the drug department. Why, you think you- if you thought you couldn’t (cry overwhelms mike) God Almighty!

Congregation: (Enthusiastic applause overwhelms mike)

Jones: Pass that change. (sings) “I’m going to shout heaven, come down on that love- (loud screams) (pause) glory-“

Voice: (from audience) Yeah!

Jones: (Cries out) You know what savin’ means? You know what it means to be a lonely young kid like John Biddulph that was cocky and thought he needed to go out there on his own? Come down, whipped dog, facing a big capitalist, all alone except for someone that has saved him, except for Father Jones that saved him.

Congregation: (Applause)

Jones: I don’t think some of you know what saving means. You don’t know where you been. You don’t know where you woulda been. You don’t know what kind of hell you were in. (Unintelligible distortion) you’d be behind bars, (Unintelligible) when you’d be dead, or wasted away. I don’t think you were late for what we’re talking about. We’re not being talking about being saved from hell, we’re not talking about being saved from an imaginary hell, we’re talking about being saved from a church (Unintelligible) to hell.

Voices in background: Right. Hey.

Voices in congregation: (Unintelligible)

Jones: I want you to sing it like you mean it. (tape distortion)

Male: (sings) “Ah, the goodness of our savior”-

(Tape edit)

Jones: I look out at some of you. You need to go out until you know what it means to be saved.

Congregation: (Cries and applause)

Jones: I mean you to be saved. I mean you to be saved. I am the God being saving you.

Voices in congregation: Yes.

Jones: I’m the only (Unintelligible). I knew where I was going from the time I was combusted. I knew from the time I began to talk. I knew where I was going. I knew I didn’t need anybody to save me. But until some of you can shout and sing and mean it, I want you to go out there and find out what you’re talking about. Oh yes. Oh yes. (sings) “Oh oh oh when I told-“

(tape edit)

Jones: (Unintelligible word) Intellectual. Those kids that came to us, one of them was crying, one of the young women. They thought that the church was beneath their dignity. They thought they were liberators, and they believed in Father but they didn’t think the church was important. They didn’t think it was necessary. But out there they realized, said the greatest organization, Biddulph said, the greatest organization’s ever been conceived, in the midst of total opposition, where there was no chance for anything to be built, someone had the good sense to build a church. Someone had the good sense to build a church.

Voices in congregation: Yes.

Jones: I’m teaching in parables that you oughta understand. Someone had the good sense to build a church that could break through this capitalist hell (Unintelligible)-

Congregation: (Applause)

Jones: And I want you to get on with this business of not being willing to rejoice like religion, because only good socialists know that the church is the only place you get saved today. It’s the only place you can bring salvation. So I want you to act like you know what you’re doing. Hey hallelujah! (Begins to sing)

(tape edit)

Jones: A young man, with his hands caught in a conveyor belt- caught in a conveyor belt, clappin’ it tonight. When they thought last night, somebody’s gonna have to cut it out. And I said “No!” My my my. Now I got the offering report. If I’d think on that, I’d get sick. But I think on the positive things that I can look around, ’cause the offering was less than half what it ought’ve been, less than half what it usually is. But I’m going to think on some good things while I’m rejoicing, and I’ll get around on working on the other things when I have to. But just look at a lad being able to clap his hands when it was caught in a conveyor belt last night. (cries out) Hey! (sings) (tape edit) Hallelujah!

Conscience- (tape distortion) your thoughts to gratitude. Then you’ll see. I still look at some very precious people that are not worshipping. Socialism should be re- regarded. It should be revered. We ought to be able to- certainly my darlings- make a j- more joyful noise unto our savior. Unto our savior we ought to make a more joyful noise than the church does. Just look around and think, because we see we have a power our minds transmit. You go talk to my mother [Lynetta Jones]. I wouldn’t’ve been here, if she hadn’t set her mind to lift above this ordinary planetary consciousness, attune her mind that she wanted a savior, that she wanted a liberator, and her mind made contact with another planet. That’s the truth. Her mind made contact with another planet. We don’t believe in a God that makes people out of the- his own loneliness and misery, but man has evolved beyond this dirt heap. They’re now producing by electrical charges, touching amino acids- they’re producing life, producing life right now in our laboratories- they’re manufacturing life, so that’s testimony. If you don’t believe in me – and goodness you’re a dummy, if you don’t believe in me – but one day, (Unintelligible word) only a half century ago, my mother decided she didn’t want to live in mortality. She wanted to see somebody bring liberation, someone bring freedom, and she set her mind, and she wanted a black child, she wanted a black-eyed child, she wanted a black-haired child, not that that means anything, but she was a blue-eyed parent and he [James Thurman Jones] was a blue-eyed parent, and it’s impossible. Any medical person here will tell you, it’s impossible. She made a contact with a vibration that’s out here. (Calls out) Hey!

Congregation: (Cheers)

Jones: So let us lift ourselves like she did. Let’s lift our thoughts, and we can save the world. (sings) “To the utmost, Father said, to the utmost-“

(tape edit)

Jones: (calm) So many beautiful things to think on. I thought of Covelo, and Jim McElvane was down to the house a little bit last night. We’d some static about racial rumbles up in Covelo. My mother was speaking to me, my so-called mother, about Jim, her going and another lady, they both white and he black. And they went to Covelo today ’cause I said go ahead. One lady was very fearful about going. With res- not because of her own self, but just fearful for Jim really. And they went to Covelo and were received in that little ol’ backward hamlet – uh, it’s really backward up there, really filled with a lot of provincial bigots – and they had not an ounce of trouble. And you need to just look around like I do. I don’t want you to just sit there and think of me in the person. Think of my many faceted works. If you did that, you could never stand there and sing, that’d be- that’d be a little hard for you. I’m not an egotist and I don’t require you to do that. But I want you to see the works of what I am. You see, I am a principle. I’m a principle. My church is here, there and everywhere.

But I- I don’t think you- you appreciate enough what it is, a lad last night with his hand in a belt, a conveyor belt, and then to see him clap it, perfectly made whole today, perfectly made whole, clapping it. I don’t know if you know the comforting when he was rushing to hospital, I don’t know if you know the agony of all those things, that every day, every day there’s things like it- Hold those hands up there, they can see them. [Isn’t] That marvelous? That was caught in a con- conveyor belt and the (Unintelligible word) called me and said, Father, you gotta do something, they’re gonna have to cut it out, gonna have to cut it off. That’s the kind of thought she gave me. Good thing I wasn’t thinking that way. But she didn’t mean any harm by that.

But that’s the point that I’ve tried to get across to you. Don’t lift up the phone and call me. Get me on the mental line. Get me on the mental line. Communicate on that higher socialist evolution, ’cause that’s where I sit. And somebody down there never got the victory tonight. (Unintelligible) I don’t want to call you out ’cause I love you. You never had any victory tonight. Isn’t there anything going good for you? (Pause) Isn’t anything going good? Huh? I don’t know if you’re able to get up. Uh, you don’t. As I say, if you can get a little joy, you ought to go out like these poor Eight and get down to peanut butter. They didn’t call me and tell me they were down to peanut butter. That’s the kind of Father you have. They’d been little horses’ asses, but I still loved them. You’ve got that kind of a Father. You’ve got that kind of a principle bearer. You can’t move ahead of it. You gotta be like it before you move out. You gotta be like the Christ revolutionary before you go out. You can’t go ahead of something that you’ve not come up to. If you don’t have enough to thank for tonight, it’s because you are not grateful for other people’s blessings. If you don’t want to be grateful for yourself, you could get up paralyzed tomorrow. [You] Say, I’d like to get up dead. Well, you could get up paralyzed, you could get up so bad that you wouldn’t be able to crawl to a pill or to a razor blade to cut your throat. I got a lot of folk in here that’re not grateful because they- they don’t like living. But you keep on, and you’re going to draw thoughts to you that’ll paralyze you till you won’t be able to move to get poison to put you out of your misery. I’m telling you what gratitude does. I’m not up here now talking any kind of dynamics. I know some people make a big to-do about healings and exaggerate, embellish, but I’m talkin’ about real things. When I stand up here, all I talk about is real things.

Congregation: (Applause)

Jones: Maybe some of you taking this thing too much for granted, but that boy’s hand last night was caught in a conveyer belt. That boy’s hand. And I said, It’ll be all right. I said that moment, it’ll be all right. That (tape distortion) in some of you when you can’t (Unintelligible word) for your brother and sister. Glory.

Congregation: (Applause)

Jones: Yeah, hey! Don’t worry. I’m not gone keep you all in a lot of business tonight. The council can call business and conduct business after meeting. I’m not gone do that. There not going to be a lot of c- counseling calling out. You can deal with it in counseling session. They’re precious workers. I hate to do it but sometimes we don’t need to be belabored with- with minuata [minutia] of a lot of details. Tonight we better decide to the utmost. Somebody saved.

Congregation: (Applause)

Jones: Bless your hearts. You may be seated. Hallelujah.

(Tape edit)

Female 1: (Cries out) -fingers were flat. It was- It was just smashed, and we knew it was broken, and we didn’t utter that word. We sent him on as quickly as we could to the hospital, keeping Jim in our hearts and knowing that it would be all right, but that hand was smashed.

Congregation: (Sustained applause)

Jones: All right! (sings) “All heavens come down and joy hath seen…”

(tape edit)

Jones: We’re not talking about a Sky God. It’s built out of the work and toil of ages of time, so a heaven came down when one woman- when one woman wanted to make a transmission, she said a world needs somebody to come, a world needs a savior, so (cries out) heaven came down. (sings) “Oh heaven came down and glory filled- “

(tape edit)

Jones: You do not have to dwell upon the words of the song, but you can make a melody and let your mind think on a thousand myriad blessings that’ve happened to you. Never to me. I don’t ever think about what’s happening to me, because I bear in my body, the stripes of the iniquities, the transgressions of others. Those that work with me all night can tell you, I’m not st- standing up here jow- uh, joying and rejoicing about how I feel. But I’m rejoicing in the good feelings of others. And you need to learn how to do that, as some in this room have learned to do that. No matter whether they have sleep or how they feel personally, they’re glad to bear the burdens of others, because they know that we must bear one another’s burden, and by our stripes, others are healed. It’s good to know this great consciousness. It makes you shout, no matter what is happening all around you.

Congregation: (Applause)

Jones: If they were bringing death to our door tomorrow for this glorious holy righteous savior, this glorious cause, I would still be singing, “Heaven came down and glory filled my soul.” (Calls out) My God! (sings) Oh, Heaven came down and glory filled my soul-

(tape edit)

Jones: -of the people freedom in this great house. There’s sister there worshipping. She’s such a good worker, the little lady that came to me on Sunday. She was living in a different religious consciousness as we are. She said, “Jesus spoke to me in my heart to sell everything.” Well, I know who spoke to her, but we’re not going to argue that, as long as they get the message. As long as they get the message, that’s the way it is, to sell all. It’s wonderful to know. It’s wonderful to have such a great salvation. And I feel really sorry for those who don’t know it.

Good reports in the Temple. Nancy Sines. Vicki Brown. We feel both Nancy and Vicki give very good care to the patients at Ukiah Convalescent Hospital. Nancy stays later than she needs to. Nancy Sines. Stand up if she’s present. She’s at work. See that it’s mentioned when she’s present. See that you tell her personally. Vicki Brown. Is she present? Stand up. Yes. She- Nancy and Vicki.

Congregation: (Applause)

Jones: Peace. She stays later [than] she needs to, doing extra things for her patients that don’t either have to be done or things that she could put on the next shift. Vicki shows a lot of care to her patients and even the other side- aides outside the church have complimented her work. We greet a socialist that has helped bring heaven down. Bless you.

Congregation: (Applause)

Jones: Peace. Peace. George Holsum [phonetic]. George Holsum. Will you stand up if your name is called. That’ll take uh, time away. We’ll call it quick and put your hand up in the salute of God. George Holsum. Teddy Holliday. (Pause) Any of the two that I’ve called thus far present? Hm? They’re on duty in many places. Scott Thomas. (Pause) Stand up. Thank you. Bruce Oliver. Jimmy Anderson. Jimmy Anderson. James Evans. Brother Wade. Ronnie James. Cardell Neal. Glen Hennington. Eric Upshaw. All these people helped move in San Francisco Wesley Johnson’s furniture, and we felt this should be announced, and we praise them for this work. Greet you.

Congregation: (Applause) (Quiet)

Jones: Wonderful. To mention again anything of a former dispensation that you have been in. I leave that last point- uh, last point not to be taken care of privately or publicly. I’ll take care of it by my spirit. To mention any group that you have been in before coming here is a mistake to your health. I warn you the last time. To mention it in any good way, to mention it at all, to forget those things which are behind. Keep your mind centered. There has never been a (breathy) socialist incarnation until today in our hour. Never in the whole experience of religious work, church work, peace mission work, or any, there has never been this incarnation before. So to look back is dangerous.

Voice in congregation: (too soft)

Jones: Um-hmm [Yes].

Voice in congregation: (too soft)

Jones: We’re having a nine to uh- (Pause) we’ve me- we’ve mentioned a cycle cell anemia test tomorrow from noon until nine, isn’t it? There will be an LVN student coming in to help who is very negative about the church. She made the statement that she didn’t want to come out here because she didn’t trust any of us. She was in- (Clears throat) She’d had contact with us before and, uh- she disagreed with my views. She makes negative remarks as to what goes on. Uh- When she comes, you just be very cordial and loving, kind. That’s the thing to do. (Pause) Have a good job of cleaning the building tonight. All right? (Hums) Wanted to see about something here that needs uh, another job opportunity. (Hums)

(organ softly in background)

Jones: All right, folk, we uh, are short. Before we go into the healing aspects or whatever last minutes, we have only one more time to see Z, and we may see it Friday if we can get there early. We have to get a new soundtrack in it. Well, we’ll see it again because it belongs to us, but it’s got to go out to have something done with it. And you need to particularly see it to study it more than once. How many never saw it at all? How many never saw Z? Well, make your purpose to see it. We’re going- we’re getting a new soundtrack. Go- Perhaps see it this Friday. Perhaps not. I’m not certain about that. It’ll have to be done early if it’s so. So get on an early bus. (pause) We are one-half, uh, we are exactly forty-two percent of our Wednesday night’s giving. So is there anyone here that uh, has held back commitment that you haven’t turned in? (Clears throat) (tape distortion) -never- Anyone that didn’t turn in a pledge or you just failed to do so, were going to do it at the end of the service? Do it now. Now we have to ask again, those that can give one hundred dollars, make a sacrifice of it tonight. You’re going (tape distortion) -that they have to establish dictatorship in every t- town and every community and every hamlet. Military soldiers marching, goose-stepping up and down every street. Three dollars- Two dollars. Countin’ on regulars to make a sacrifice (tape distortion) -conscience. Thank you. Two. The last time. (tape distortion) -sacrifice, better listen to their conscience. If you can afford it, listen tonight, ’cause it’s now run out of time. One dollar. How many will give one extra dollar? And if you were supposed to give 500 extra, I would advise you to listen to your conscience. ‘Cause there’s a state as cycular- state sweeping over the place of indifference in the- in our giving, and that’s dangerous. (Clears throat) (Hums)

Voice in congregation: (too soft)

Jones: I will give you a minute. I certainly will. One dollar. If everyone in this room would make a sacrifice of one dollar. And I have a deep feeling that many of you could do so, and many of you’ll regret one day not doing so. Right tonight. Get your change out. All you can do. The busses travel up here without enough bus fare to pay for the gas, much less the tires. Did you hear me? We have to buy $10,000 worth of tires. Now I could let that bus run on lower grade of rubber, but I wouldn’t be the kind of father I am if I did. (Pause) I bet if you were going to see Aunt Suzie, you’d pay your bus fare. You’d find a way to do it. One sister who uh, mentioned this weekend she wanted to go to Texas and I said, how are you going. No, she was- Louisiana. She said (Stumbles over words) she wanted to go to Louisiana. Said I’m going by air. That sister been riding our bus for weeks without paying anything. Guess she saved the money to go to Louisiana by not paying a bus fare. (Pause) Two hundred dollars will not pay for four busses. I hope you know it. We’re losing money to bring these busses down here. Hundreds of dollars. I expect it’s cost us $800 tonight. Uh- Minimum $800 just to bring the busses here. I mean that’s how much we went in the hole. You don’t drive Greyhound busses two ways. You don’t drive them for any less than a hundred and fifty dollars a- a trip. So that’d be $300, four because they have to go two ways, all but one of them. So that’d be twelve hundred. Yeah. Eight hundred dollars we lost tonight. (Pause) What do you think we should do this- about this church? Should we make some rule of the- that people have to give if they are going to go with us?

Voices in congregation: (too soft)

Jones: Oh, I forgot to read another letter of one of the children that went out.

To Father and our family.

This letter is to reveal how I allowed myself to make a drastic mistake as to leave the greatest work on earth (Clears throat) and a leader who has all the love and wisdom on earth. I want you to accept this note for what it’s worth as a message, to listen to Father and have all faith in his teachings. For he knows all and we know- we all need his concern and knowledge. Stay with him where we all belong. Thank you, Father, for everything. You were there to help us, although we had forsaken and left you. Thank you. Vera [Washington]. (Clears throat)

(organ lightly in background)

Jones: Each one giving change. We’ll see what we do. (sings) “Heaven came down” (Speaks) How much has it filled our souls? (Clears throat) (Pause) (Clears throat) If I had to go out and raise money for you people, (Clears throat) how many will be in every service, worshipping, supporting, paying your commitment, so that people don’t have to stand all night and take offerings. How many’ll be there, holding up my hand if I had to go, ’cause we need money for land, folk, and I’m not gonna get it [at] this rate. And I do want to save you to the utmost. I’m not satisfied just to save you for a little while. I want to save you to the utmost. (Tape edit) Turn your change in, everything you can right now. How many had uh, some income that- fixed income that could go and you were supposed to turn in, how much you could give on the trip while we were gone? How many was it- was it that was going to go- wanted to go or could go? (Pause) I don’t- I don’t want to go through the winter with people who are, you know, really prone to a lot of difficulties. I- I don’t want to- I just have to just drag you in and out of a bus. If you’ve got- I’m not going to put an age barrier, but I don’t want folk going (Clears throat) who can’t take a change of weather, ’cause we waited a little late. We start making plans now, it would probably be another month before we could get on our way. ‘Cause you got to uh, advertise yourself before you get anyplace. (hums) Any questions about what we are working towards right now? Shift yourself just a moment. Yes? (Clears throat)

Voice in congregation: (too soft)

Jones: I don’t think we have a microphone somehow. Something is wrong, they’re not able to reach you with microphones. How far can this reach? Gonna go now? You got it- All right. They’ve got it now, so that it’ll go back there to you. (pause) There. Right there. Right there (Unintelligible word). (Pause) (Hums) -call. Each of you are making contact, are you, with the council with those that need to be counseled after service? (Clears throat) (Pause) Are they doing that? (Clears throat) Make contact with everyone you want counseled. I want all this counsel docket taken care of, after service. I don’t think we should have to all be put through this. Too bad that counselors have to even, but we’ll try to give you some time off from a service if you need it, but I’m not gonna put everyone through all the little trivias. Some of those that’ve had uh, warnings- Let me see that agenda again. (Pause) I see one name coming up here that I- I’m- I- I’m not going to have any more outta him. Number one on review. (Pause) Number two, (Pause) uh, there’s no more review. That’s too bad. (Pause) I guess we will have two people stand up after your question. Yes, your question.

Female: (Unintelligible)

Jones: No, uh, we ha­- we haven’t. If you have some ideas along that, you could (Clears throat) give us uh, projected. Likely we would move in the same area where we’ve had some contact. (Pause) Philadelphia. Chicago. Perhaps even Houston again. I don’t know. Houston is very supportive. Strangely enough such a small group, but it’s very supportive. Houston gives more each week than we got here tonight, (Pause) and it won’t last unless I get there to attend to it. (Clears throat) People can’t- but that’s pretty good. I was there in August and they’ve gone August, September and October without anybody there. Only my picture- Only my picture, and they spit cancers, drop crutches, lay down braces, walk away, just by looking at a picture. And I think some people in this house would be better off if they had to look at a picture for awhile. Or at least [if] I was absent for awhile. ‘Cause absent would make the heart recognize its need. Notice what I emphasize. I don’t believe anyone loves a savior, but they need one. And I think sometimes saviors have to be gone before that’s recognized. All right. Yes, dear. Are you had- add to that uh, any thoughts you have on that agenda. It’s this kind of thing we are uh, tried with.

Al Kemp, Joe Wilson. Stand up if you are in the presence of this, the most wonderful saving group in the world. Are these two people present? If not so, find them. (Pause) Joe Wilson’s at school? The moment he gets out. Now you know the case of Joe Wilson? He’d made progress. Anything have- anyone- anyone has anything to say redemptive for him? I cannot stand this kind of stuff- And Vickie Dover? You should stand too because you- you helped lead him astray. (Pause) Where’s she at? (Pause) Where’s Vickie Dover? When I call your name, I want you to be up quick.

Is it true, Vickie, that Joe Wilson, who we had much difficulty in getting him tamed down, getting him cooperative, getting him straightened around, and you heard that we- we have to keep rules. As big as my heart is, we’ve got to keep rules, or everyone will tear down this house. He’s been up for violence. He’s been up for disrespect on the job that could’ve caused other comrades their job. He’s done other things that were exemplary, and we gave him chance after chance, but on this last Sunday in LA, you went to see your natural father and took Joe with her without clearance. You got no clearance from anyone, and then you were confronted by one of our women, and Joe got extremely hostile and told her to shove it up her (deliberately leaves out word). I don’t think I need to say the word, everyone has an understanding. And I don’t think it’s at all funny. Because it was his last chance, and I don’t think there should be smirks on your face. Kid is about to lose his home. Danny Pietila’s been out- was out ten days, and he nearly destroyed his body. I don’t think that some learn even, when they destroy them, bo- their bodies unfortunately. They won’t be so prone to have as quick a- an experience as he had. How many experiences it takes? I don’t know. Ten days. He had two. And I think I heard it said his body was hit- uh, knit- knitting a hundred times faster than they’d thought, isn’t it?

Voice in congregation: (too soft)

Jones: The doctor said, after I told him, when the doctor told him he’d be crippled for the rest of his life, I told him it would not have to be, would not accept that, and then at that point now, the doctor tells him that this accident’s healing one hundred times faster than he expected it. Now I don’t know why we uh, take advantage of such wholesome atmosphere. Vickie, why did you take him with you?

Vickie Dover: My grandmother had asked me, that uh- just before we came to service that day, he was going to take me before, but then when we got there, uh, we got dressed first and so we were walking down. Penny [Kerns] came by and she told us, uh, she asked us why didn’t we have clearance and asked us- asked us where were we going and-

Jones: That’s right.

Vickie Dover: –I said, going to my father’s house and then uh, she said that we shoulda got itcleared, and so-

Jones: That’s right.

Vickie Dover: And so I told Joe that uh, you know, Joe started getting mad, you know, and saying okay we’ll get it cleared, you know. Then we just kept on walking. Penny stopped us and told us we should go back and get it cleared. And then uh, Joe started arguing with uh, Penny, you know, and I told her, I said Joe don’t get mad, ’cause, okay, I’ll go back and get it cleared because we should have got it cleared before. And so uh-

Jones: Did he say what I just said?

Vickie Dover: Yeah, he said it.

Jones: Anybody got anything to say for him? You have to say it. Because if you don’t, it’s uh, that’s it.

Voice in congregation: (too soft)

Jones: All right. I’m tired of him thinking he can do good one moment and uh, bay-disobey rules on the other.

Female 2: There was a man. I took him to school and there was a man that was, I thought, was following us, and uh, he was all ready to defend me. He said uh, if he follows us up to school and we stop the car, he said uh, I won’t let him hurt you, don’t worry about it. Also uh, my car was on empty and I- he needed a ride to Archie’s [Archie Ijames] and uh, uh, I said- he said, oh, Archie’ll get real mad at me, or- Now wait, let me see, exact words. He said, If- If I get him up and he’s real tired, he’ll hold it against me in his mind, and I said well, I think if I need gas, my daughter isn’t feeling well, that there’ll be gas provided and uh-

END of Side 1 

 

Side 2

[slight overlap of recording]

Jones: All right. I’m tired of him thinking he can do good one moment and uh, bay-disobey rules on the other.

Female 2: There was a man. I took him to school and there was a man that was, I thought, was following us, and uh, he was all ready to defend me. He said uh, if he follows us up to school and we stop the car, he said uh, I won’t let him hurt you, don’t worry about it. Also uh, my car was on empty and I- he needed a ride to Archie’s [Archie Ijames] and uh, uh, I said- he said, oh, Archie’ll get real mad at me, or- Now wait, let me see, exact words. He said, If- If I get him up and he’s real tired, he’ll hold it against me in his mind, and I said well, I think if I need gas, my daughter isn’t feeling well, that there’ll be gas provided and uh- if- if it- if it comes right down to it, and we got there. It was on empty and I opened- (Laughs) I opened the door, the light came on and it was a fourth of a tank. (Laughs) Thank you.

Jones: So wonderful. Thank you.

Congregation: (Applause)

Female 2: He was ready- He was ready to get Archie up, although he knew he would be angry with him and get me some gas, because he said I don’t want you alone at night. So I thought that was uh, honorable of him.

Jones: It is. But I can see something here that you’re gonna have to be careful. It could be- People can use these kind of generous acts to individuals and still think they can defy a collective rule. I- I’m not saying he is. But he’s going to have to bring himself into coordination. There are those who will do good, uh, dissident elements, chauvinist who’ll be nice to women, but would be open traitors to this cause. We’ve had it. These that are just now saying I’m sorry. They’ve been nice to individuals within the group, but defied the uh, the total instruction that keeps the group alive. So good works must also be accompanied by following rules. I’m glad to hear this point. I’ll weigh it. I’ll weigh it, I think, and others will weigh it, but I think we need to deal with this. He has time and time and time again defiedrules and done kindnesses, most of which I seem to find are to women. Because he was quite assy to some of our men. (Pause) So if you’re going to be socialist in consciousness, you should do it impartially. (Pause) And that thing of fighting is not necessarily a thing to encourage in him. Some of that is uh, ego showing, I- I’m afraid. I- I will make that judgment. I won’t be afraid. I will make that judgment. That’s ego showing. ‘Cause he nearly got into a lot of trouble for a fight. So never, never- Always discourage him when he talks about fighting. (Pause) Yes, anyone else have anything to say for him or against him.

Female 3: My daughter should uh- should be up here to speak for herself but uh, Joe have brought her home several times when she was taking up courses at uh-

Jones: Your daughter.

Female 3: –Ukiah High. Rochelle.

Jones: All right, fine, fine.

Female 3: –and uh, she didn’t have no other way to get home but to walk home. And she didn’t come up to speak for him. I don’t know what reason she didn’t, because- (Unintelligible under Jones)

Jones: Well, what reason didn’t she?

Female 3: I really don’t know. But I’d like to speak for her.

Jones: Well, you can’t speak for her. Uh, the way the daughter- Where is she- Why- Why did- did you not speak? Maybe she had some other reason there. She didn’t hear. (Pause) Well, ask her.

Vera “Mom” Taylor: Father, Ji- uh, Joe was nice enough to bring us three truckloads of wood and place it back in the shed, and I appreciate it.

Jones: Um-hmm [Yes]. But I hope you people hear what I’m saying. If he tells someone to shove it when it’s clearance, everyone else in this room’s listening. He goes out with a young woman on the streets, then everyone else has got a right to go out on- with a young woman on the street without clearance. There has to be some kind of discipline in this house, and it must be established that he is disciplined tonight, one way or the other. I insist on that. I’m willing to take the heat if some of the rest of you want to be uh, in good graces with people. I’m willing to take the heat. I demand that it will not be cleared from this office tonight without adequate discipline. This is serious to say to some woman – anybody – shove it up your (deliberately leaves out word), and it was improper for both of you not to get clearance in a large metropolitan area where you can get damaged, you can be harmed, and we- we would have to even worry and discern. I’ve had to discern where people were, because they did not make an adequate- adequate clearance, and there’re people, all sorts of anarchists, look on to this kind of demonstration, and I’m gonna tell you before this session is finished,discipline will be handed to Joe Wilson. I won’t stay on his good side, because I love him. I won’t let any little thing he does for me keep me from demanding discipline, and each of you that said what you did should have prefaced it with this fact. Yes, he did so and so, but he has done wrong and he should be disciplined.

Congregation: (Applause)

Mary Wotherspoon: He- he left his uh- the brake of his truck off, and it rolled into our fence, and he hasn’t fixed it and he won’t fix it. And he was approached about it too, by a male, and he had a snotty attitude, and he-

Jones: He won’t fix it?

Mary Wotherspoon: -won’t-

Jones: Well, we’ll see. We’ll see. Tonight when he gets in counsel, that’s one of the first things. He’s to get that fence fixed pronto.

Voice in congregation: (too soft about mailbox)

Jones: He knocked Jewel’s [Jewel Runnels]-

Voice in congregation: (too soft about mailbox)

Jones: She can’t get any mail, a person who’s without sight cannot get mail? You see that that’s fixed also. That’s what I’m demanding thus far. Yes, Joyce [Shaw]. Shh!

Joyce Shaw: (too soft)

Jones: Storage cha- charge of $26. That’s necessary. He’s gonna pay that. I demand it. He can hate me. ‘Cause I don’t mind being hated to save this house, but some of you wouldn’t even uh, stand to be disliked, to save this house. You want to be on the best side of everybody, but people that want to be on the best side of everybody, never kept this house together. It was me that’s willing to be hated and be lied upon in newspapers, even killed. They hate me so, it’s ridiculous. John Harris’ uh, monkey bit uh, someone, and someone came [and] warned me that somebody’s gonna shoot me, wanted to shoot me, because he- uh, his monkey wasn’t in proper control and bit somebody. I get all the hate, but I’ll keep getting all the hate, because I’m the thing that has given this house strength. The willingness to be hated. Some of you don’t know what that is, and I wish you’d develop it and cultivate it. The willingness to be disliked. Some people say I don’t like Penny. One thing Penny’s got, a willingness to be disliked. And we need more like that.

Rochelle: Wasn’t up here a few minutes ago. I was in the restroom, but Joe has brought me home several times from high school during the summer.

Jones: Yes, I’ve seen all- uh, I thank you, I appreciate that and I’ve seen all women thus far that have spoken for him. (Pause) Has he helped any brothers that’s been on the street that need the way home? (Pause)

Andy Silver: No, he’s never helped me, and many months ago, I had to- I asked him at least five times to keep his shirt on down at the project center, and then- because it created a bad image of, they were trying to correct in terms of our blacks being well dressed or at least (Stumbles over words) reasonably dressed. And just- I mentioned the office and what kind of image Father keeps us in, for our own good, and he just openly refused to do it.

Jones: Um-hmm [Yes]. Well, uh, bring that matter up. If there’s any more of that, I don’t know, several months ago about a thing like that. He may have changed that, ‘course it’s cool now and nobody- (Stumbles over words) they’re showing as the males uh, want to demonstrate themselves up to the degree, they don’t want to get too cold doing it.

Congregation: (murmurs)

Jones: Yes.

Jan Wilsey: Uh, I was being kind of negative one time. Uh, I didn’t come to security or whatever, and he was really after me and he got really mad and everything, but I’m- I don’t really even want to speak good for him, because he’s just given too many chances. I think he should go. I think we’ve given him enough.

Jones: Thank you. That’s at least a willingness to not be liked by someone who’s kind of served her purposes at times. So that’s- that’s honest, I appreciate that. Um-hmm [Yes].

Male 1: I don’t think he should be allowed to stay anymore. His- You- You’ve showed your love too many times to him, and he’s just taken advantage to it, and I think he should be made to go away for several months and- and uh-

Jones: See, this young man has been sent away once before. Begged me to come back. Said he would not give me any trouble, and he came back and gave me a lot of trouble. And uh, now has shown growth, uh, these areas of services are growth even if it’s ego, even if it’s chauvinism. If it gets Mom Taylor some wood. Uh. Fine. I’m glad. He’s maybe trying to get a good uh, sister on his side uh, uh, the sister who he knows I respect. I don’t know what he may be doing about that. But whatever his motive, these are things that I appreciate getting done. Uh- But I do think people should not gloss over a rebellion to a rule. People should not be out on these streets without clearance, should not take trips without clearance. That’s one of our rules. (Pause) Yes.

Vickie Dover: I have- I have been contributing to Joe getting in- in a lot of trouble and uh, I won’t let it- let it happen again without being cleared, and I’m making sure it’s been cleared through council.

Jones: You better not, ’cause you may not be seeing him, unless you follow him a long way. (Pause) Thank you. How many vote that uh, thus far these are things that he has to do? I say, and then anybody wants to make any other recommendations. First I shall see what the vote is. Uh- (Clears throat) How many wish him expelled from the church for six months. Not to some other church center either. He’ll have to go someplace else for six months. (Pause) Now you don’t have to vote that. I’m not requiring that. I’m not requiring that. I want you to vote your own conscience in this matter. Don’t be- Don’t be up and down. Just vote how you feel. If you feel you d like to keep him here, that’s all right, but again we’ll take this vote over and you’ll think it, think it through. How many feel he should be expelled from this church for six months? Away from any one of our religious centers. How many do not feel so? (Pause) Well, some of you that’re speaking uh, you- you then speak for it. Uh, there- We will gladly hear uh, some of our- one of our new brothers. We’ll gladly hear you speak why. See those that s- want to speak for- uh, how many feel he should not go? (Pause) Now I don’t want to hear from some of you, ’cause some of you, the only reason you’re doing it, because you want to save yourself to do rebellion too. And I’m tired of that. New psychologist back there, I’ll hear from him. I’m not lis- I’m not interested in people who’ve been guilty of in- breaking all kinds of rules putting your hands up. You don’t impress me. You understand what I mean? Uh- All you’re doing- trying to- you’re just trying to uh, butter your own. (Pause) We’ve got to put an end to rebellion, or we won’t be able to get this group to a point of safety. Now if you want to rebel, go out and do it with the Eight and end up eating peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for days. Then maybe you’ll be willing to come home. They can’t come home now, they got themselves in messes, they got to do some things out there, and then there’s some other things they want to do to make it up for the family, they say. So we’ll gladly let them do that. (Pause) Very well. I asked for two people. I asked for the new brother who’s a psychologist and uh, I asked for you. What is- what is your comment?

Male 2 (Psychologist): Well uh-

Jones: (Unintelligible under psychologist) -forward if I asked for you to speak on the behalf of why they should stay.

Male 2 (Psychologist): Well, just speaking to the one, uh, since he isn’t here, I think he should – before he be judged – at least given a chance to speak for himself and to explain things.

Jones: Well, I think-

Male 2 (Psychologist): I think that’s only fair-

Jones: I think, brother, that you are probably not familiar. He has been up here at least one dozen times, sent away for six months, taken back in in Los Angeles, sheltered in our Los Angeles Temple with his dog, kept there when he tore up shrubs and all kinds of things. I still let him even keep his dog, and he didn’t even follow a simple little rule of looking after his dog. Uh, there musta been $300 worth of shrubbery damage by his dog. Then he came back and he caused an incident on a job that did cost a brother a job. I think- Melvin [Johnson], you work on that job. What did you have to say something where he works, don’t you ? (Pause) You want to say something. You should say something. A black brothershould be heard from. All right. That’s a point, but in view of the fact he has been a dozentimes up here, uh, it’s a little different than if he had been, you know, one time. And uh, the fact that his friend who was involved in his compli- uh, complicity to the negative thing he was doing uh, says that he did do it. She’s not going to be speaking against him but rather forhim. The little girl who was with him in the uh, act should also be called before council for what she can do to make amends for her indiscretion. But ordinarily I agree with you whole-heartedly, and he will meet council tonight. He will meet the council. He won’t be just sent out, given a notice and say bye-bye. Yes.

Male 3: Well, I don’t know, brother, but uh, I too feel that he should be here and speak his piece. And uh-

Jones: Why do you say that now, after I have said uh, twelve times he’s been here. Twelve times he- he has- he caused violence to one of our brothers, which is a cardinal rule. We are- We have no violence against comrades. We make that an absolute. We will not allow violence against each other. We can feel it, but we can’t demonstrate it. Because it- it can tear up a commune. He has uh, cost another fellow his job (Pause) on the- on the work by his and- nasty an- antagonistic attitude. He turned another person in. There’s a lot of background I don’t think that you people realize, but he goes around and does nice things to women, which really nauseates me, because it’s a chauvinistic kind of thing, in which he is trying, inmy opinion, which he has heard. I’m not saying it behind his back. He uh, does these things to ingratiate himself with individuals, so that he can avoid following the rules here. But that’s- that’s why I- I just answered him. But I- maybe I didn’t answer him with clarification. We never dismiss anyone without their having a hearing. He will meet with the leadership of this church, which is approximately 20 representatives, at least 20 of 70, he’ll at least have that probably to talk to tonight, and they can be the final arbitrators. They can actually uh, override our decision by law, church incar- incorporate law. We have never hesitated to give them that power thus far. Uh, is there any other point you have?

Male 2 (Psychologist): The most- The most important thing I feel though is that he’s asking to be here or stay in the church, and uh, if he has problems, all the more that we need to help him.

Jones: I see you don’t understand much about the capitalist (Unintelligible word, sounds like “sea”) we’re invo- engaged in. Uh- People who have problems can be helped by certain groups, but a group that is the avant garde of defending the American freedoms cannot have time for people who repeat over and over a mistake. Here he is. He can speak for himself. (pause) I – I do not uh, agree with you that people, just because they want help but don’t make uh- don’t implement that desire with good deeds and actions- Socialists have to be willing to give their life at any moment, and it takes that kind of character, and it also requires that uh, the type of discipline that is willing to take instructions all the time. Because we have to save a host of people. We’ve already saved many people out of the courts, we’ve saved political prisoners that I don’t want to go in here and review all of what we’ve done, but it took a close discipline. It takes people following instructions, keeping their word, being in the court at the right time, talking to the right people, influencing people, judges and prosecutors with wholesome attitudes and cooperative obedient dispositions. And uh, we’re not- we’re not just a rescue mission here. We are the avant garde of saving America.

Now, there are- there are people who deal in- engage in these psychological efforts outside, in which they just treat problems but never get a cure. We’ve got to get a cure. We- if we don’t have a cure here, we’re finished, because the weak link can destroy every one of our links,. We are no stronger than our weakest link. We’ve been through it. One weak link can destroy us. We have to have uh, rules that we never discuss our philosophy in certain places. If one person breaks that- uh, I’ve seen the time it coulda destroyed us. We’ve done great and heroic things to save this country which I cannot talk about publicly. If one person had vio- violated keeping their mouth shut, our work would’ve been finished. It’s that you’re new, naturally, and this is hard for you to conceive all we’ve been up against. We have been up against dynamite bombing- bombing, fire bombing, gun strafing, knifing, a man came in right here to knife us, and if people were not obedient, there woulda been somebody killed. I told them all to be seated, and I met him myself. So, uh, cooperation is very important, andthis man is an anarchist. You understand what I mean by that term. He is an anarchist. He refuses to bu- obey- a- abide by rules given from this office. And he seems to- All the people that testify for him are women, which makes me very questioning. I hear no brothers saying that uh, that he’s done anything for him yet. Uh- Perhaps here we have something. Melvin? You work with him. What is his attitude? Have you anything else you wish to say, doctor, and uh, I’m not- I didn’t mean to cut you off. Go ahead uh- go ahead, though, I want to hear from his w- work.

Melvin Johnson: Well, uh. All I’ve heard was uh, good reports on him on his work here lately, you know. One of the guys he works for us says he works very hard. He’s one of the hardest rough cutters, they say, out there, you know. They cut rough lumber out there.

Jones: Um-hmm [Yes]. That’s good. That’s certainly- that’s certainly in- indicative ofchange, but all- all that worries me, every time he breaks one of these rules, someone’s looking on. (Pause) They’ll not remember that he’s a good worker, they’ll not remember he’s brought wood to Mother Taylor. They’ll just remember that he told somebody to shove it up their ass. And for that, young man, you ought to ta- you ought to hit the road. You violated a rule. You didn’t get clearance, and you told a sister that, when she was telling you, reminding you, because no one here wants to be the- the bad guy. Penny will say, “Here, where’re you going? Have you got clearance?” And I don’t care where truth comes from. You may not like that instrument of truth. Truth is truth.

Scattered in congregation: That’s right.

Jones: And you promised me when I let you and you had to go home from- to Los Angeles. You have made growth. We’d sent you home and brought you back on my word. Other people then didn’t want to give you a chance, and I brought you back, and all the distress it caused, the first time when we sent away, and you just keep doing these things. (Pause) What do you have to say for yourself?

Joe Wilson: Well, I did say it, I mean- I don’t know what to say.

Jones: Well, say something, son.

Male 4: Why did you say it? Didn’t you know you weren’t supposed to talk to no counselor- nobody counseling you like that.

Joe Wilson: No, I just got- just flared up and I said it real quick.

Male 4: When the girl that was with you-

Jones: (passionate) Well, when are you gonna stop to think, young man? If everybody flared off, this organization might as well be destroyed, and I shot. When everybody has the liberty to blow their stack like you blow yours – when you blew your stack and cost a brother his job, and you blew your stack and started a fight – when will you realize that if everyone did as much as you did, we’d have no organization here tonight. We’d have nothing but ashes.

Scattered in congregation: That’s right. (Pause)

Jones: (calms) We pledge to you life. I pledge to you, I’m out working, taking chances to get you survival when the black race w- has been told to us by Nussbaum, the Indian, the black and the Mexican will be destroyed if dictatorship takes over, and I’m risking my life and my health and my strength and go through pain night and day to get you life, and here you are gnawing away at my rules. This is a very bad thing, when you break a rule like this. Any rule can be broken. If you take the right that you don’t have to get clearance, everyone can do it. (Unintelligible) Why didn’t you then say, no matter whether you like Penny Dupont or not, say, “Right! I’ll go get clearance now!” (Pause) Who do you think you are? Tell me, who you think you are. Some special person?

Joe Wilson: No.

Jones: You do too. Your actions show so. Your actions speak louder than your words. Why is it that it’s women all that- that you help so much too. Are you trying to look good with the girls?

Joe Wilson: I guess so, I-

Jones: There’s older brothers here that don’t have any wood. (Pause) I don’t mind that. It’s a natural phenomena. It’s all we get can people to grow, help the sisters, but not to the expense that you break these rules. I don’t care what other games you play- They say you were going bare-shirted and you told- Andy Silver, the Jewish brother, told you. He knows what it is to keep rules. ‘Cause our Jewish members have all lost, or most of them have lost loved ones, some of them totally all their family been destroyed in concentration camps. Dr. Tropp’s [Richard Tropp]. All of that, and you- you- you rebelliously didn’t do it. You- Joyce Shaw, who’s been one of your best friends, says that you uh, were supposed to pay a $26 storage bill for some damage you did and didn’t take care of. And you’ve not done so. Uh, you, uh- the Wotherspoon house, you tore down the fence, and you were belligerent and hostile aboutfixing it. Never fixed it yet, so they say. A blind lady’s postal box you tore, you- you broke down. She couldn’t see you. Why didn’t you take as much care to do good by her as you did these women who can look at you?

Joe Wilson: (microphone clicks on, unintelligible first word) I did fix it, what I thought I broke up, and she said I, you know, didn’t fix it the way they wanted and I just finally agreed to fix it.

Jones: What about the postal box that she cannot get her mail?

Woman in congregation: They will not deliver her mail- (Unintelligible)

Jones: Yes, they want, they- it has to be proper printing, has to be very well done and very well fixed. They won’t do it. But I’m saying, I want you to see yourself. You- you- Here’s a woman who doesn’t have her natural eyes. You’ve not taken the time to give her the concern that you have others here. We’ve had advocates on your half- behalf of how you help people on the road, and that’s good – women – how you helped someone instead of someone following them who was gonna hurt them, you would fight them. Probably a lot of that’s egotoo, I mean to show your toughness more than just protectiveness. I would say that’s pretty accurate as to where people are. Most people. Not just you. Uh- You have been- have been- you saved this sister today from getting into some difficulty about some wood or uh, just recently. Sister Casanova. There’ve been many things that’ve been said on your behalf. But this- this is- I’m tired of it, Joe. I’m tired of getting you up here every two weeks. (pause)

Male 5: What are you- What are you here for, Joe? Do you think- Do you think you can stay here and (Unintelligible) this valley?

Joe Wilson: No.

Male 5: Well, what are you here for? (Pause)

Joe Wilson: I want to help, but it seems I’m doing just the opposite.

Male 5: You gotta help (Unintelligible) to freedom, you know, are not doing it all. You’re acting like you want to be bound down, man. You’re acting like you want to be right back- right back in your old place, and-

Jones: (deliberate) Man, uh- I don’t doubt that you are growing, but if- if you- if you want the help, you would not do what you did there Sunday. If you were grateful enough for staying here, you wouldn’t do that. You wouldn’t tell a woman, to do that, to- to say that in a public place and uh, uh, violate a rule and tell her to shove something up her ass. (Pause) I wish I had the time for uh, uh, the kind of uh, palliative therapy and gentle therapy that our good doctor recommended, but we are in a battle for our lives, (Pause) and we’ve found that we’ve kept a lot of people from hard-line drugs and we’ve had the best record according to the government- Doctor, what was his- Van Dusen. The best record in the United States. And (Unintelligible word) the whole- whole region in drug rehabilitation. And we’ve done it by sternness, not pampering. And we didn’t do it just to be stern, we did it because we hadto. We are- are- We are in this constantly under fire. (pause) (Clears throat) Do you have anything else to say about it, Melvin? You say he’s doing- working better, (Stumbles over words) that’s positive, that’s good, that’s one brother that’s spoken [on] his behalf. (Pause) He’s here. What is it. Your financial situation, you turn your money over to a commune, do you?

Joe: Me? Um-hmm [Yes].

Jones: What do you do?

Joe: Well, right now, I’m paying off like doctor bills and little bills that I’ve built up.

Jones: Doctor bills. Don’t have to pay a doctor bill in the United States. What are you doing for the church? How much you doing for the church?

Joe: Twenty-five percent (Pause) and a pledge that- that I made a while back.

Jones: Um-hmm [Yes].

Joe: I’m trying to pay that off.

(Pause)

Jones: What’s your resident situation? Tell the people how- where you live.

Joe: Archie Ijames.

(Pause)

Jones: I- I – I insisted he needs a structured discipline too. Archie’s often busy, and I don’t know, Mother [Rosie] Ijames is quite busy. I don’t know whether uh, uh- Does he help you there in the house?

Rosie Ijames: (Unintelligible)

Jones: He has shown improvement in your house.

Rosie Ijames: That’s right.

Jones: Yes.

Rosie Ijames: (Unintelligible)

Jones: I do think we lack– he l- he needs to be in a disciplined commune where all is turned over. If he stays. That’s another demand that I make. I made a demand that you fix what you promised to fix, that you pay the bill you promised months ago to pay, and then that you uh, enter into this place where you can get some structure.

Rosie Ijames: (Unintelligible)

Jones: Hmm? He gives you $25 a week. (Pause) Well, that’s certainly not m- making you a great deal of money. You’re not getting rich on that. (Pause) Anybody else have anything to say? We’re going to take a vote again here, and you vote how you feel. You vote exactlyhow you feel. I’ve just demanded what I require. I require that you change now to a communal structure. Where can he- is there anything- planning committee- where is- is anything available? (Clears throat)

Woman: (Unintelligible)

Jones: Well, maybe some of that uh, inconvenience might be helpful to him. Yes. (Pause)

Male 6: (first words off mike, unintelligible) I’ve had a few confrontations with him at work before where he’s gotten very violent with me, but recently within the past couple of months, I have seen a lot of times when he has curbed that violent feeling that he has, which I thought was really an improvement over- (Unintelligible under Jones)

Jones: Yes, I think it is.

Male 6: But I still think he has a lot of room to-

Jones: And I agree with the- with the- with the- the doctor, that we- as improvement is shown, if it’s significant, we will work with you, but we’ve got to stop this dilly-dallying. I don’t want to see people up here every two weeks. (Pause) Now, you vote your feelings. If he goes, say want him to go six months back to LA, six months to some other city. That’s the lot of danger for a person who’s not had any controls or uh- that’s a size of information that uh, presents a new facet. Ijames are good people, very good people. But Archie’s out so much busy- busily building our projects that he doesn’t have time to spend in counsel. I’m not so sure a commune can solve all that either. You’ve done a lot of things uh, self-improvement within yourself. It looks like you could keep a lip- keep a control on your lip. (Pause) Who wants to make a proposal from the floor? (Clears throat) You make the proposal. For the- for the vote. Yes.

David Smith: (Unintelligible)

Jones: Uh, four days is a little uh, to be- We’d have to do it week by week. We’ve been reviewing it. He’s been up here week after week reviewing. I think it’d probably have to be a week, it’d be more convenient. (Pause) We’d have to do it a week for the st- uh, sake of the leadership who’s greatly overworked. Counselors and staff, and Planning Commission. Terribly overworked. Uh, it’s all right, if that’s the proposal. He’s making a proposal, that uh, he enter into a contract about what I’ve recommended plus anything else that’s want to be added. You want to add anything else to the- do that I have not added? Umm-hmm.

Debby Blakey: (Unintelligible)

Jones: Yes. Debby.

Debby Blakey: (Unintelligible, mike cuts in) -improve and then-

Jones: Wait, wait. We’ve got one proposal on the floor we’re acting on at a time.

Debby Blakey: Oh.

Jones: Now we’re acting on one proposal at a time. (Clears throat) How many are in agreement with Brother Smith’s proposal? Will you vote. Stand up. Stand up. I’ve got to get some recognition of what you’re doing. Stand up. Enter a one-week contract. Next week, if he’s violated any rules, he goes. But we’ve been doing that for- verbally, for several weeks, but now in writing. (Clears throat)

Debby Blakey: (Unintelligible) Do you need any group (Unintelligible word)

Jones: I say yes. I say a communal structure. I think he needs to be in communal structure. That can work both to his good- You take him out of some sorts of pressures, in one way make him establish some contact with peers. But I better not hear no games in there- uh, no sex games in these communes. (Pause) (Clears throat) Those that’re in favor, stand now and get- get decided what you’re doing. (Clears throat) (Pause) Folk, you know. If you don’t know- come on now, let’s get it up.

Voice in congregation: (Unintelligible)

Jones: Uh, the f- the recommendation is that he will be- he will enter into all the things I demanded. He pays his bills that he owes and so forth and so on, then he enters into a commune, uh, he uh, repor- repairs the blind woman’s postal box, he does that immediately, and uh, this fence immediately and enters into a commune immediately, and that- yeah, that means giving all, as they did on the day of Pentecost, turning it in totally, living communally, with more discipline on his life. Uh- And he does that a week-by-week contract. He signs a contract. He will maintain himself on that way. (Pause) How many are opposed? (Pause) That is based on- there’ll be no- there’ll be no review, if that contract is in anyway broken. No review. You understand that, man? I think that’s what you’re saying, isn’t it, Brother Smith?

David Smith: My proposal was that it be reviewed- (microphone switches on) My proposal was that it be reviewed, and if the progress is sufficient, then he stays. But if there’s no progress, then six months.

Jones: But man, this is a serious case. It’s been over and over and over again. I don’t think some understood your proposal, and I think they’ll vote- they won’t vote with you. I- I was sympathetic to your proposal, but if you’re going to make this a review, review, review, review.

David Smith: No-

Jones: If we review everybody here tonight, we are finished. We cannot get our work built out here on the front guard- front lines, and get this discipline that we have to, to build our projects, to get our things in order, to get land abroad, we can’t do it reviewing everybody up here every night. If somebody wants to enter into sociological and psychological uh, study groups, they’ll have to go someplace else. This is a place where people gonna have to be workers.

David Smith: That’s why I say this will be the last and final review. After a written contract-

Jones: Oh, I see-

David Smith: –sometimes a written contract will carry more weight than a verbal contract. So I would say rather than to send him forth at this time for six months, give him one last chance.

Jones: Well, I- I would- I was sympathetic to that-

David Smith: With a written contract, and if the-

Jones: But I’m saying then if he does not maintain that- if he doesn’t come up to that written contract this time –

David Smith: -then- then at the end-

Jones: –what can we do?

David Smith: Beg your pardon. Then at the end of the one week, if the review is favorable, then he- then it would be extended, but if it’s at the least unfavorable after a written contract of this last chance, then it’d be automatic six months. (Pause)

Jones: All right. How many again were for that? (Pause) How many are for that proposal? (Pause) How many are for that proposal? Be seated. How many are- are opposed, and think he should go for six months? (Pause) You’ve got a sizable number that are for- for your going six months, so son, you realize that you will not carry a vote again. I can tell you. You’ll not carry a vote again. All right, we accept that. E- Engage him in that contract. Then council meet with Vickie to decide what her part should be. (Calls out) Anyone else that adds to this is going to come under serious censure. When anyone takes him away, you are going to be censured right along just as severely as he is. When people prey on people who are having trouble growing or meeting the tasks- and this is a heavy demanding role. We know it’s a heavy grow uh- group that we’re in. We’re not s- we’re not happy that it has to be so heavy, but this is survival. So anyone else such as Vickie that it contributes to this will be treated – in my opinion should be treated – equally severely. So what you better all do is to lay off of him or you’re going to take a trip, only you won’t go the same place he does. (Clears throat) (Pause) Anything that you have to say at this moment, Brother Joe.

Joe Wilson: Thank you.

Jones: Thank you. That’s- that’s sufficient. I think that’s sufficient. Yes. Add- to add what? (Clears throat) Yes.

Male 7: To curb his loud and boisterous language.

Jones: What?

Male 7: Curb his loud and boisterous language.

Jones: (Clears throat) He cu- he ought to curb his- his use of cuss words. Uh- He- I mean, and another individual. He should not- He should not ever say- We don’t want to hear any more of that. Don’t tell anybody, shove it. I think that’s very despicable kind of thing to say to a comrade anyway. (Pause) You know those rules and we’ve not put them into writing before, but the things that he had violated, put them down. Put them in contract, in writ- written contract. No violence against a brother, (Pause) no rat-finking on a brother that would cause them to l- to lose their job or any of that sort of thing. Although that hasn’t been reported – that’s past – but it still should be written in. Those are areas you’ve madeimprovement. You have made improvement. We- we- I told you all that the last time. I built you up very highly, son. So I think that you’ve had a good balance of praise here. (Clears throat) Very well. Anything else to be said on that. Thank you. Thank you. You may be seated. (Pause)

Al Kemp. Do you now think that, because your people are here that you can continue uh, carrying on like you are?

Al Kemp: No.

Jones: His parents or grandparents got anything to say about what they want to uh- to do? He was uncooperative. Insolent. When confronted, he was misbehaving badly, he was sitting outside the church in dangerous areas. He uh- he said an usher had put him there, and that had not been the case. He said he didn’t care if he had to face council for his behavior. Well, you’re facing it. (Sound of clap or slap) (Unintelligible) (Pause) Whatcha got to say?

Al Kemp: Where was this?

Jones: Los Angeles. Andy Silver. Jewish brother who m- met you.

Al Kemp: I was sitting right outside the door- ri- right up there on the side where the children sit. I was sitting right there. And I was- I was- I was sit-

Jones: Ah, stop all this rip roar. We been through it. Did you say you didn’t care if you had to face council?

Al Kemp: I told him to bring me up if he liked. That’s what I said.

Congregation: (Murmurs) (Pause)

Jones: Now I have- I have uh, no respect for corporal punishment, and thus I have taken corporal punishment myself. But I am not taking an ass-licking for you tonight. Because I’ve got a bad enough spine from being whipped around here. (Pause) I don’t think it’ll do any good. I don’t think you’d empathize with me at- anyway at this point. (Pause) I know I got spanked before. I don’t like uh, physical violence but uh, if you- if you look at revolutions, sometimes they’ve been the only effective deterrent to people not to- to betray. I’m pacifistic. Non-violent. Overtly anyway. (Pause) And covertly, because when I’m at home with any little insect or any person, I always uh, respect uh, the principles of pacifism. (Pause) Well, what do you say, uh, (Unintelligible word) Where’s his family? (Stumbles over words)

Voices in background: (too soft)

Voice in background: Come up here in the front.

(Pause)

Jones: He lives with somebody here, I- I know them. (pause) I (Unintelligible word) a lot. (Clears throat) Relief of this kind of pressure is what I need. I’d do better out on the road than- this what bothers me about going on the road, because how many of these people gonna- I hope you throw out people uh, summarily. I hope you let them know they don’t get by with this kind of stuff when I’m gone, if I have to go out and make money. For this holy cause. Yes. Uh, here’s a good, good woman. I wan- I want to tell you, Al, I wouldn’t put up with you five minutes, if it hadn’t been for her. I wouldna put up with you five minutes. You have caused so much disorder in this church. What do you- What do you have to think about it, darling?

Eliza Jones: Well, Father, I’m sorry for all that he has done that’s wrong, and I’m always asked him, trying could we correct him of- of his wrongs, and uh, I’m not with him in any of it.

Jones: No, I know that.

Eliza Jones: And- And I’m sorry-

Jones: I just wanted you to know- I wanted you- I wanted you to know what you wanted. I’m not blaming you for it. (Pause) I was wondering what you think we could do about it. Any privileges that we can take from him or any uh, instructions that you’d like, any help, any uh, group assistance or whatever.

Eliza Jones: Well, like- I feel like that uh, some of the privilege may be that, if he have (Unintelligible word) should be taken from him. I feel that-

Jones: Is he living- He lives in the city? He live in Ukiah proper?

Eliza Jones: Oh, we live in Calpella.

Jones: Um-hmm [Yes]. (Pause) (Quietly) That’s good. (Pause) You think, uh, living with somebody else for awhile. We’re not- we’re a little hampered in that sort of thing because ofguardianship. This guardianship’s uh, sit- sit- situation is difficult. The laws don’t want anything that borders communes. They’ve fixed it up so people will never get together socialistically at least until they are of adult years, (Clears throat) and cities now have rules that people can’t live together in a socialistic commune above certain number. They don’t want people to get together. Trying their best to keep it from happening. Now I could think of remedies that- that would be helpful to him, but we seem to be a little bit hamstrung in terms of getting him moved some place. What does anyone have a recommend with uh, with Al?

Voice from audience: With the belt.

Jones: What?

Voice from audience: The belt.

Jones: The belt, the one brother says.

Another voice: (Soft)

Jones: What’s that?

Another voice: (Soft)

Jones: I don’t remember. (Clears throat) I know we’ve been any- we’ve been to the limit with it. Hm?

Third voice: (Soft)

Jones: He’s been spanked, he said, already. Sister [Georgia] Lacy.

Lacy: Father, I have been in the home with Al Kemp and his grandmother, and he doesn’t respect her, he talks to her just like he’d be talking to another child.

Jones: Watch those chairs when you hit a- hit a chair of an older person, honey.

Lacy: He doesn’t respect his grandmother. He talks to her just as though she’s not hisgrandmother. Tells her when he- what- what he’ll do and what he won’t do.

Jones: He does?

Lacy: That’s right.

Scattered voices in congregation: (Murmur assent)

Female 4: I’ve also heard him treat his grandfather the same way.

Jones: What?

Female 4: I’ve also heard him talk to his grandfather the same way.

Jones: Oh, you think you’re gonna talk like that, uh?

Al Kemp: I’m sorry. I know I been talking and tell her what I want to do. And I never to- never talk to my grandfather that way. That my grandfather.

Jones: Did he talk that way to you, Mother?

Eliza Jones: He have talked that way to me-

Jones: Um-hmm [Yes].

Eliza Jones: -and I think a good spanking would help him.

Scattered voices in congregation: (Murmur assent)

Jones: How many are opposed to spanking? (Pause) I said, how many are opposed to spanking? How many are opposed to spanking? Brother back there behind the pool. Why are you opposed to spanking? Come up and let’s hear. We want to hear always from the minority. How many are opposed to spanking? We haven’t had a spanking in a year, I guess. How many are opposed to spanking?

Linda Dunn: Why?

Jones: Dunn, I don’t want any malcontents putting your hand up. (Pause) Now listen to him, that brother hasn’t had anything that uh, infraction of the rules, but I don’t want no malcontents putting your hand up. (Pause) How many are- in this family- opposed to who’s not been on this floor for violation of rules yourself too many times. How many are opposedto spanking?

Voice from audience: (Too soft)

Jones: Well, if you got some other recommendations? Last time I knew, we don’t believe in drowning people.

Male from audience: (Too soft)

Congregation: (Applause)

Jones: Yeah, that- that- that would do- that- that- that I think that would do. If we can get by with that for two weeks. Can you get him into school? Will you get him into school? Can you get him into school? You can- you can get him into school? That’s where you go. Two weeks with that brother.

Congregation: (Applause and shouts)

Jones: And I’ll tell you one thing. Uh- He’s from an old school. Don’t give him any lip. Or you’ll be- you will be- you’ll be uh, given the nastiest beating on your bottom side you ever had. Don’t give him any lip, Al. Now learn all the lessons that we’ve had you up here time and time again for.

Kemp: Okay.

Jones: You come back, you talk politely and nicely to your- your grandmother.

Kemp: Okay.

Jones: And you don’t give us any more trouble. You don’t give any more little- any more lip. Again, as I say, you that are new, you don’t know the background of this case. Al has really wrenched every rule that there could be. Yes, young. Yes, yes sir. We’re not now going to spank in the public but it’s still- if you had anything to say, it’s all right.

Male 2 (Psychologist): Well, I- I think that this is a better solution uh- I don’t- I’m not that much opposed to spanking. Uh, I think it’s more effective when the thing happens in uh, case of defiance of the parents, I think that uh, he coulda had a good smack right then. But I- I was uh- I do uh, abhor violence.

Jones: It does have to be implemented, it’s true. You’re going to have to implement it, Mom Jones. You’re such a good heart. You’re going to have to make the rule, and I know that’s rough, but you’re gonna have to see that these rules are kept and report the moment they’re not. Because they’ve to be backed up, or any child- he’s a good child. All children are good. There’s no such thing as a bad child. They’re just- it’s just a matter of what- what rules they understand they got to follow.

Eliza Jones: Thank you, Father.

Jones: Uh, what you- I didn’t mean to cut you short. Uh, I want to say this, though, about spanking. One of our men here who was a real, a real problem. He’d been- He’d been getting drunk and uh, we didn’t get to spank him till several, maybe a few weeks after he had had a drunken s- brawl and uh, spoke unkindly to one of our ladies. It cured him. He took his drawers down here and got a good old-fashioned spanking. And he never took another drop.

Congregation: (Applause)

Jones: It’s amazing. I’m sure psycholog- I don’t know what- what do you think of a spanking, doctor back there? I doubt- doubt if you ever saw that quick a cure of alcoholism, did you? (Laughs) We cured an alcoholic. He was an alcoholic. (Laughs) He said it- it made him feel good that we cared that much. That was an interesting interpretation. (Pause) We’ve cured some other things here too. I just happened to think of that. Yes. But I don’t like it, because people outside, they do have strange things to say about, that church spanked some more people on Wednesday night. So we haven’t done it for a year. But I think it’s good to know that it’s getting close back to home. ‘Cause they’ve said everything else about us. Why not let them add spanking to the list. (Clears throat) Yes.

Female 5: Father, my son is also give me a lot of trouble out of the whole 13 years he’s been in school. It’s like I’ve been in prison, and he’s started the same thing here in his school, and there’re teachers that sent notes home to me, he has chewed ’em up all but- ‘cept one, and my oldest son give it to me, and I do need help. Desperate with my son Frederick.

Jones: Where is your son?

Female 5: Here he is. He is to a point that I can’t take care of him. And I do need man supervision for my son, very badly.

Jones: Well.

Female 5: I’ve had eight nervous breakdowns behind him. And I have sent him away and he come back, he go off and (Unintelligible word) do the same thing and he- last term he didn’t only go to school about two months. The whole-

Female 6: He turned-

Jones: He’s new here. uh, we- we give a lot of- we give counsel to people to- Al’s had a lot of counsel, a lot of therapy, and a lot of love. Our psychologist, uh, what time- you said you had time to donate to us. How much time do you have, brother? Hmm? What’s that?

Male 2 (Psychologist): (Unintelligible)

Jones: Uh, what uh, what time schedule do you have? Some of our problems (Clears throat) are up here. (aside) Uh, go back there and talk with him, see what he- what time he has. (Back to congregation) I’d like to take a new lad and give him some opportunities to find out what’s going on. Sometimes that means counseling, certainly it means counseling parentsand child. (Pause) Well, son, you’re not finished. Don’t sit down. (Laughs)

Congregation: (Laughs)

(Pause)

Jones: (Clears throat) In the meantime, while you’re getting with the psychologist, (Clears throat) you causing trouble up here now, you knew that that was one of the conditions that we couldn’t be- We couldn’t cause any trouble in these schools. We have to be better than good in- in this- in this little agricultural community. (Pause) Being as you’ve not been up before. Do you know what a trip to Harry Ellis’ house means?

Child: No.

Jones: It means a hide-licking every time you step out of line. Uh, he’ll get you in line if you come back blue on your black.

Congregation: (Laughs)

Jones: Now I mean it, son.

Female 7: Because he’s taken a ring at school the other day and had the teachers to call me all upset and everything, and when they went out, he had the ring hid somewhere and then he said he didn’t get the other boy in trouble, but he was in it to the top of his head.

Jones: I don’t want to hear any- all right, we’ll hear from you Wednesday. If we hear one little thing wrong. Uh, I think Harry will give me a week, won’t you, with him?

Ellis: (Unintelligible)

Jones: He’ll take you too. (Laughs)

Congregation: (Applause and shouts)

Jones: Now he’s old school. He don’t believe in philosophizing. Talking. Or praying. So you that- that’s bad trouble- (Stumbles over words) when you don’t philosophize, talk, orpray, son, it’s a thumping. We’ve never used that route, but being that he’s volunteered, uh, this is a serious thing, you see. You’re stealing stuff they’ll- they’ll- you’re old enough, they could give you a- they can get you into juvenile hall. Meantime, we’ll try to arrange some uh- counsel with this good brother who’s come into the tr- church and says he wishes to help, if he’s still uh, in agreement with our goals and our directives. But son, I hope you listening. That’s up to you. Now next Wednesday, it’ll be reviewed. If there’s any trouble, you’ll- you’ll go out there on the hill out near Potter Valley, and it gets cold and then hot on that hill. (Pause) Do you hear me? Okay. Yes.

Voice in congregation: (Unintelligible about Ollie)

Jones: Ollie [Darnes]?

Voice in congregation: Yes.

Congregation: (Murmurs)

Jones: Hmm?

Female 8: Uh, him and Dov [Lundquist] and- and the Pearson child [Teddy Pearson] got in trouble, and the teacher called me up there last week for stealing some rocks and taking everybody’s lunch and I’ve been-

Jones: (Stumbles over words)- where’s Ollie [Darnes]?

Female 8: Here he is, right here.

Jones: Ollie.

Female 8: Wake up. And then he gave Carol [Stahl] some trouble today.

Jones: Ollie.

Female 8: Wake up.

Jones: (loudly) Ollie! Wake up, love.

Female 9: And that’s not the only problem with Ollie at school.

Jones: That’s not the only trouble with Ollie at school.

Female 9: He’s got two partners who’re in the same class.

Jones: She- he’s got what?

Female 9: He has two partners in the same class. Dov Lundquist and Teddy Pearson. And they continuously, every day, and uh-

Jones: Den- Denny Pearson?

Female 9: Yes. They leave the classroom. They get out without the- me ever knowing.

Jones: Step up here, lad.

Carol Stahl: I’d like to say while they’re coming, that I substituted in that class today, and I’m ashamed to say that those three were the worst disciplined.

Jones: Denny Pe- Hey, wh- where’re the other one? Well, Al, you may be seated, Al. You hear- You got your appointment. You go to- You go home tonight. (Pause) I appreciate, Harry, very much, that’s a great help. (Stumbles over words) Where are the other- where is the other three that caused our school teachers all the trouble here? (Pause) I didn’t want this. But if you don’t do this- we’ve not had a child arrested, not a child, and every other church has had their children in chai- in jail, sent away. Our rules maybe seem old-fashioned, but until some people who are more equipped come along, like this doctor, to show us a better way, thus far we’ve kept out people out of trouble. Okay.

Scattered in crowd: That’s right.

Carol Stahl: Where’s Teddy-

Jones: Where’s the Pearson boy?

Carol Stahl: Pearson?

Jones: Where?

Voice in congregation: Here he is.

Jones: Wake him up. That’ll be the closing chapter, I hope. (Pause) That’s it. (Clears throat) (Pause) Hold him up. Hold him up. Somebody there. Three people, hold these fellows up. (Pause) Brothers, (cough) Look up here!

Congregation: (Commotion)

Jones: You- you people seem to walk outta class when you want to and cause a lot of trouble and steal lunches? (Pause) Steal rocks?

Female 10: And cuss.

Jones: And cuss.

Female 10: (Unintelligible) she says she doesn’t know what to do anymore.

Jones: Who’s the teacher?

Female 10: Uh, Miss Gardner- First year.

Carol Stahl: –Miss Gardner.

Jones: Hmm?

Carol Stahl: Triculture- It’s a tricultural class.

Female 10: There’s not-

Jones: She’s an Indian.

Female 10: Yes.

Male: First year.

Jones: And the first year of teaching and an Indian lady. You should treat her nicely. (Pause) You’re gone treat her nicely. Did you just hear what happened to the little boy? He went up to Harry Ellis. You know what Harry El- uh, Harry El-

End of side 2

 

Side 3

Carol Stahl: – if you didn’t straighten up, we’d deal with you at home. So, you gave metrouble today when I substituted in your classroom. And Ollie, you didn’t cooperate at all.

Jones: Cooperate, you know how- (Stumbles over words)

Carol Stahl: Well, he didn’t mind. You didn’t- thank you- you did not mind in class and the- the aide who worked with the teacher and I-

Jones: What’s the reas- what’s the reason for this? Why are you- why are you doing this? Why are you stealing rocks and not minding, walking out of class?

Child (probably Ollie): I don’t know.

Jones: Hmm?

Child (probably Ollie): I don’t know.

Jones: You don’t know. Stand up back there now, I want to just look at you for a minute, and then you stand back there so you can look at the rest of the people. Back the way they were, so they can face me and the re- and the group.

Mary Ann Casanova: They’re not alone. (Unintelligible word under sneeze) the others.

Jones: Who’d you mention?

Mary Ann Casanova: There’s Ju- Julie Runnels, Georgianne [Brady]- Ronnie Beikman-

Jones: Julie Runnels, get her up- get ’em up here.

Mary Ann Casanova: Ju- Julie’s here, Georgianne’s here. Georgianne went to her teacher yesterday and told her teacher that she was a liar. She has Miss England.

Jones: Oh, that’s nice.

Mary Ann Casanova: Her teacher reported to me last Friday that Ronnie Beikman and Georgianne, uh, she said they’re just not cooperating. Ronnie was doing very well, but for awhole week, he acted up, and then Georgianne-

Jones: Whole week, huh?

Mary Ann Casanova: -ann was uh, wanting everything-

Jones: Get ’em up here. Get ’em all up, so we can stand-

Mary Ann Casanova: She’s right here. So she went back to school Monday or Tuesday, and told her teacher that what she told me was a lie and that her teacher was a liar.

Jones: (Pause) Say, you, you darlin’s. You’re- You’re in- We just told- There’s a brother over here takin’ a child home tonight, Al Kemp. Gonna take him out on a hill out in Potter Valley, then it gets cold up there, they said and then, if you don’t mind, it gets hot, because he- he whips the hind ends of the children that don’t mind. (Pause) Now that’s what- you- you want to take a trip? Hmm?

Child: No.

Jones: That’s what Al’s gonna do. He’s gonna spend two weeks out there. And he doesn’t believe in praying. He don’t believe in talking. He doesn’t believe in doing anything but (claps hands three times). Now you little smart alecks are too sweet, too smart, all of you are smart little children, you oughtna be smart alecks.

Mary Ann Casanova: I think she wants to tell her. She talks back all the time.

Jones: You don’t talk back to teacher any more. Do you hear? You don’t steal anything any more. You hear?

Georgianne: I wasn’t stealing.

Jones: Now, I’m talking about all of- We do have some who have been stealing things. They don’t know what they’re doing. Steal rocks and lunches. Walking out. You don’t walk outta the classroom anymore. You’re nice in the classroom. Okay? Each one. What do you say?

Georgianne: Yes.

Jones: Yeah, what about- what- uh, how do you feel about what you been doing?

Georgianne: Bad. (Near tears)

Jones: Um-hmm [Yes]. Next, Julie.

Julie: (quietly) Bad.

Jones: Bad. No, I want to- I want to hear your own words. You been- you’ve been brought up here before too many times. (pause) Well, you look at this whole group. As I say, we- our methods may be a little primitive, but they’ve worked. Now you look at ’em all. Look at the people. And you look at them. We don’t like what you’re doing. You hear? We love you, but we don’t like what you’re doing. You see Harry? Come walk up here. Harry, Harry, come up here. (Pause) Shh.

Congregation: (Scattered response)

Voice in congregation: It’s not funny.

Jones: Shh. These children- these children are going into- get into difficulty if they don’t show ’em by hitting this- this uh- this uh, platform how you spank.

Voice in audience: We have another one here (Unintelligible as microphone comes on) as a- the person of the demonstration. He’s done just about everything you can mention.

Jones: Okay. Well get up- by the way, Tim Stoen. Where’s Tim Stoen? Find out, did he get that call to Dashiells, to Philadelphia. There was never a report of it. Did you get that call to Philadelphia? I should have a report on things like that. Uh, I realize you’re busy, you’re very busy. Yes, um-hmm. Come on, give me the report. Very well. Do you understand? You children going to get to go to a new home. And here’s how he spanks. You got something to- He uses a belt, and you kids are going to get to take terms [turns] in a house. (Sound of blows) Shh. (Sound of blows) Now that’s the way he spanks. And he’ll spend there- and you spend- You’ll get to spend several days there if you give any more trouble. He can teach you a lot of things too. He knows a lot of things. He can teach you things, how to do things. But you won’t like going out there. Not right now, anyway. I don’t like to appeal to fear, but I got to do something to get them things straightened around here.

Carol Stahl: Some of you do not send snacks with your children. Please do this. The teacher is giving them snacks out of her own pocket to make it equal with the other children. So- and they go around getting food from the other children. Now that’s not right. Everyoneshould have a small snack.

Scattered in crowd: (calls to Carol)

Carol Stahl: Yeah, he does. He does. He has one.

Jones: You hear? You all know what you’re gonna get now, don’t you? Don’t know- in meantime, we can arrange something. If the doctor has any time to talk to you, then we’ll- we certainly willing to alter our methods. But in the meantime we’ve had some success along these lines. We give you things to do, you have a night here. Shhh. No talking back there. You got to (Unintelligible word). You have pool. You’ve got a place to play. They do things with you, creative things. You’ve got a place that’s looking after you against all the troubles that the rest of the world’s gonna have. You don’t have to worry about the bomb, or don’t have to worry about the concentration camps or dictatorship, and some of you little ones have shown that you know about it by your writing. Not you. But some of our children who are not behavior problems. All that know the heaviest problems in this world are not our behavior problems. So, maybe a- an honest thump will get it done. Do you understand what you’re gonna get into now, if you give us any more trouble in the classroom? Next Wednesday we’re gonna ask how- how you’re doing. Okay? We know you’re good, and we know you’re smart, and we love you, and we know that you are going to do right. You all get it? Hm? You understand, son? Okay. Be seated.

You can be thankful to take a little of your time to participate in this kind of thing because (Clears throat) we’ve saved countless youngsters. We have children in here who were pushers at nine. They’re now the best kind of young people you could know–

(Fades, slight whistles, then blank)

Tape originally posted May 2009

Originally posted on June 16th, 2013.

Last modified on February 18th, 2016.
Skip to main content